Alpha Legion 2.0 - Theorycrafting

[left herald]

Wasn't the exemplar thing previously they could take another legions trait in addition to the AL one?

I've never been that interested in Lerneans but that would have sold me on them 100%

[hushed cliff]

Yes, which was bad design and busted (fun idea tho)

[left herald]

Busted if they're WS and BS 4?

[hushed cliff]

The old design was busted especially since it worked with the warlord trait

It probably wouldn’t have been so bad on them alone, the new rule I don’t think is good design either tbh

[left herald]

I like a lot of what they've done with the new edition but I do think they've gone too hard on removing unique/fluffy things in flavour of easy balance

If I end up playing with friends/fam I'll probably modify rules to bring that back

[plain warren]

Yah I know I’d need to buy some mk 4

[safe reef]

I think its doable to mk6

Just clip the mk6 torso half off and put the Headhunter torso in

[hushed cliff]

How so? Not being shitty or baiting, I just really don’t see how we got any less unique/fluffy?

[left herald]

For example, Alpharius losing his sieze the initiative bonus and ability to hide and wargear, Angron losing S7, Ferrus Manus' sire ability not benefiting the IH unique units, Perturabo having Firing Protocols (2) but only one ranged weapon, White Scars I believe have some issues with their legion trait being redundant etc

[jolly helm]

Specificity will come with chaos Space Marines.

Be ready for deathguards 40k units or true khorne berzerkers WE.

[hushed cliff]

Some of those don’t really speak to fluffiness, and I’m far from believing that any of this is perfect, but at least from AL’s perspective we got way more fluffy/unique and more mechanically interesting

Just focussing on what was lost in alpharius doesn’t do justice to what was gained

[jolly helm]

I honestly vastly disagree.

Playing full HeadHunters isn't that fluffy, and Coils of the Hydra is maybe but still a bit weird.

Of all the legion, i feel that WE need to play named Characters (Dynat per say) to get some of the interesting stuff back.

Dissaperence of Mutable Tactics is shockingly bad. And imo a proof of failure of the team, as is the New Hydran Excursor and Exemplar which just feel like they were speed written without proper thinking.

Lernies went from arguably the best Termies in the game to C+

Imo because of poor design and playtest.

[hushed cliff]

I’ve already shared my feelings on why I came to an entirely different conclusion on this with you before so I won’t again

New excursor and exemplar are boring though, yeah you’re right

[plain warren]

Learnies being ws4 is kinda weird imho

I haven’t played yet but I realise they got +1 to hit but I’d still probably take ws5

[hushed cliff]

Yeah I agree, but I’m gonna see how they are in practice

If my maths is correct, +1 to hit is worse than WS5 against WS5, but better than WS5 against WS6+

[plain warren]

It’s like oh we hit the same against everything but characters and we get hit worse in exchange

In cc anyways

[left herald]

Don't get me wrong I like the new legion traits and advanced reactions, and baking RoT in is a great move, but I don't see why the previous cool stuff (even if it wasn't used much, or was OP) had to be removed - just rebalance or adjust points cost. I'd say that all the examples I provided are fluff based except I suppose the white scars one.

[jolly helm]

Mutable Tactics could have nerf to like 3 units instead of everything. Even if i had to pay 25pts for the unit.

Well, anyway. AL gameplay feels kinda boring on paper, and will bé frustrating.

Frustrating for new AL players because thé Lies and Obfuscation requires perfect understanding of the game and innate skill that number of players won't have.

It's not that of a "passive" skill. It requires real.thinking from the player part.

And for the opponent, it will be super duper frustrating to never be able to "play" against a formidable AL player. With Smoke and Mirrors i think it punch the nail even more.

[left herald]

I think 'requires a perfect understanding of the game and innate skill' is a massive overstatement

[wild sundial]

It's definitely different than just "play like another legion"

[plain warren]

I played eldar in 40k I got punished enough for being half a inch inside range etc 😂

But yah it’s going to take some practice

Depending on the missions which I haven’t really looked into sire of the alpha legion and everywhere and nowhere can be really good for gaining initial board control and out deploying your enemy

But that requires a lot more experience to pull value out of compared to some other legions

[safe reef]

Could exodus hang out with Headhunters? He has venom spheres and decent short range weapon profile so maybe he could do work on closer ranges

[plain warren]

I take it the vigilator model works as the exodus

[safe reef]

I use it

[plain warren]

Probably the best proxy you can get

[wild sundial]

I mean is it really a proxy if there isn't even a model.

[safe reef]

Why everyone always wants to steal IW siege tyrants?

[plain warren]

Cyclone missile launchers I think

[green roost]

1. Iron Warriors are cool
2. Siege Tyrants look cool
3. 20 Krak missles

And they can shoot their bolters at the same time

[left herald]

Cos they don't appreciate Iron Circle

[strong zealot]

Or they do and want to play new coils

[jolly helm]

But Domitar can't be inside a Spartan can they ?

[strong zealot]

They just have to open one up with their hammers first

[jolly helm]

That's the best answer ::p

Brethrens of Iron Castellax do not gain the legiones Astartes of the legion with the rite of war, right ?

But Praevian's unit does.

[strong zealot]

Yeah just them I think

[jolly helm]

Sad.

I want to build the less "sneaky" AL army.

Just pre order myself a Kratos... 😄

[rigid topaz]

Anyone got cunning plans for Alpharius? I'm considering using him to deep strike a contemptor, melta squad in rhino and a land raider of firedrakes

The idea being that the vehicles can absorb interceptor fire, then the squads can disembark to wreck face

[jolly helm]

3 Stormlords

[strong zealot]

Fairly sure the rules state yor opponent should dick punch you for that

[jolly helm]

Does "a Dreadnought Talon" of 3 counts as "one unit" for the Alpharius "deep strike" ?

[left herald]

iirc they deploy as a unit and then can split up after? So they should?

[crisp idol]

it is one entry on your list getting the benefit

I do not see why they would not

deep striking 3x3 dreadnoughts seems like an oversight on the rules

[finite moat]

I'd be down to run stormlords when they are still legal

[jolly helm]

Who does not like the idea of taking 9 dreads full melee or 6 and 1 Léviathan in the face ?

[finite moat]

laughs in fury of the ancient

[jolly helm]

I'd have love a similar "Axis of Dissolution" massive blob of Tactical Marines Generic Rite of Wars you know ? :p

[brave abyss]

I have a question about Alpharius’ deep strike rule. Do IC in a unit count as a separate unit that Alpharius has to give deep strike too, or does the unit and IC count as one unit for selection.

[safe reef]

You need to give the rule to character separately

[full holly]

Is there a link to the generic marine profiles? Picked up my heresy box but there's no profiles listed

[green roost]

Who givin you your box on Monday?

[brave abyss]

Ah okay, that makes sense.

[green roost]

How many headhunters would I need to kill a Primarch?

[jolly helm]

All of them.

[twin finch]

What's the hive mind opinion on power daggers and venom spheres? At 5pts the daggers seem like a steal to me for sgts. Not so sure about the spheres

[regal kiln]

I've always loved the idea of the daggers - 5pts for an extra attack on sgts, and rending on a 5+ are a steal in my eyes

[green roost]

I like to think of Venom Spheres as stink bombs
Just throw them at people you don't like

[regal kiln]

Venom spheres I've never really used and I confess I'm not sure what the draw is for them in HH2.0

[jolly helm]

Yeah, dagger is insane.

4 attacks AP3 Rending 5+ on sarg is like "You wound me and kill me or you are doing nothing"

Venom Sphere.

Erk.

[green roost]

6 shots wounding on 3s is pretty nice but 10pts is pretty steep if they only get one shot

I'd take them for 5pts

[twin finch]

Dont forget the +1 init on the dagger

Or was that the sword.... So anyways, daggers on sgts and ignore venom spheres? Okie dokie artichokie

[green roost]

They have Sudden Strike 1, so yeah +1 to initiative

[twin finch]

Next question for the hivemind! I'm playing in an escalation league and I'm thinking of doing a head hunter formation with 1 consul w/hammer, Melta bombs, and the +1 to hit wt, 1 stock head hunter squad, and 2 seeker squads w/ chain bayonets, daggers, and melts bombs. Does that seem like a reasonable force? Never played hh before and really worried everybody's gonna be spamming dreads

[regal kiln]

I think meta is that dread spam will be coming

melta bombs are always useful for that purpose

But if you're doing Escalation League, you'll need some more basic troops to start off, I think? Build up to a point where the headhunters can be used effectively.

When you say you're doing a headhunter formation, do you mean you're working towards the Headhunter Leviathal Rite of War?

[twin finch]

Yeah

[jolly helm]

People won't spam dreads.

Dreads are resilient, but not "that" killy.

Even 9 of them are like 1950pts and no line except if they take Fury of the Ancient.

And even then, well...

For the same cost, a 20 man tacticals will tarpit a Dread for 2 games.

[twin finch]

You can get two contemptors in a fury of the ancients at 500 with 70 pts to spare, and I know atleast one guys gonna either skew dreads or an armored spear head with 3 preaditors....

[jolly helm]

So you are building 500pts and it's 2 dreads ?

[twin finch]

Not sure what your asking. I'm personally building an infiltrate based mixed force, I dont really like dreads

[jolly helm]

If you are going to play only Headhunters I'm not sure that you can indeed face them.

Especially when Headhunters can be taken as troops but do not gain the Line subtype.

[twin finch]

Yeah, but I thought seekers had line?

Hence why I'm bringing two squads

[green roost]

Should I give my Headhunter Sergeant a Multimelta for full rerolls to hit?
Or give them a Combi-melta so that they can move and shoot and still re-roll 1s against characters?

[jolly helm]

They're not line, are they ?

[green roost]

Headhunters? no

[jolly helm]

Seekers neither ?

[twin finch]

I thought they were, let me double check

[jolly helm]

Or did they gain the subtype in the released book ?

[left herald]

Don't need Line if you table the opponent...

[green roost]

Seekers are not Line

[jolly helm]

Line is what is going to make you win at HH.

If you want an infiltrate heavy list AND being able to manage Dreads and Predators at 500pts

Go for Recon Company.

5 men squads with Melta Bombs are 115pts IIRC.

[green roost]

Just realized Hedhunters have Relentless
Multimelta it is

[twin finch]

Well dang, gonna need to rejigger my list again

[jolly helm]

2x5 recons with melta bombs + headhunter with one multi melta allows you to take a 80pts Delegatus for the RoW

And some points left.

[green roost]

Now I wanna make a Multi-Melta that looks like a sniper rifle

[twin finch]

Just glue a scope to it :p

[jolly helm]

But I agree that 500pts trying to fetch a RoW isn't amazing.

I'd go fo 2x10 + Artificer Armour tacticals + 60pts Centurion as my baseline.

[twin finch]

Really? They all seemed super strong to me, figured the 80 point tax was worth it

[jolly helm]

And then spend those 220pts left on something.

I don't remember the point of Landspeeders

But they can be deadly.

2 Javelins for 95pts each.

But sorry, I understand it is not the orientation you would go for the list

[twin finch]

Like my initial idea was 2x10 breachers with a centurion and some upgrades, but then I saw how broken dreads are and how good the row were and figured I'd change it

[jolly helm]

I was just thinking for "How would I personnaly build a 500pts list being able to face "regular" armies on top of FoA or AB one"

Most RoW are bad until you can play a bit another game they force you into.

Headhunters are far too expensive in a "core units" situation, and if you kit them for Melters they are going over the roof.

2 x 5 with Multi Melta is a maximum imo per 1500pts of army list.

[twin finch]

Oh, ok. Well, since seekers arent line like I thought I've gotta rejigger anyway. Dont really wanna do a ton of tactical tho, I like the weird/unique units way more, and atleast at 500pts my entire armies gonna be printed and my printers not very big...

[green roost]

Is Dynat worth taking?
Seems like a solid Melee Murder Machine

[hushed cliff]

His role from 1.0 has totally changed and he’s much better for it - his new warlord trait is great (alongside the infiltrate, extra movement reactions have great synergy with our legion trait) and yes, in combat he absolutely slaps

[green roost]

Well I was struggling to find a good use for my Praetor
Mighg just turn him into a Dynat proxy

[jolly helm]

In all seriousness

Stealing Grave warden seems cool no ?

[regal kiln]

It's certainly one of the units I've been thinking of taking, so yeah

[jolly helm]

With an Herald giving them line they are most impressive

I mean, one command Squad with a Praetor and one unit of Death Shroud with

Oh damn I mentioned Grave Wardens while thinking Deathshrouds.

[green roost]

Need a tough melee unit to stick Dynat in
Any suggestions?

Might stick him with my Lernaeans as they have Line, but they seem more shooty than punchy

[jolly helm]

Reward of Treason Justaerin/Firedrakes/Crimson Knights/Phoenix Guards/Palatine Blades/Invictarus Suzerain

[green roost]

I do like me some Justaerin
but I'm already using RoT for Siege Tyrants

[jolly helm]

Oh

Then Command Squad

They are Line aswell as long the Standard is Alive.

[green roost]

Name my standard bearer Alice
Got it

[jolly helm]

@crisp idol WE should continue here.

Thunder Hammers are Brutal 2...

??

[jolly helm]

French phone correcting English words because it does not know them ^^

[crisp idol]

your right Raeven; yeah word is they are Brutal (2) in the final rules, which makes them worth their points this edition

[jolly helm]

Ok...

[green roost]

Great for Bonking Primarchs

[crisp idol]

S8 AP2 is just nuts

especially with so many 2W units running around

As per our other conversation, I struggle to see how power daggers will remain relevant this edition

[jolly helm]

So sad. I hate auto include stuff to be fair.

[crisp idol]

they really needed rending to compete with power swords

[jolly helm]

I think on sarg they are better than power fist

[green roost]

Power Daggers are a cheap way to give your sergeants extra attacks

[jolly helm]

And cost 5 less than Sword.

[crisp idol]

chainswords are 5pts

and have shred, I know what's going to be more consistent mathswise

[jolly helm]

Then dagger is better imo

You are not kitting your tactical sarg to be killy

[crisp idol]

you are still doing S3 into T4, which is always bad

[jolly helm]

You are fishing for that ap2.

[crisp idol]

typically, if you wound, it will be AP2 yes

but you will wound much less often

[green roost]

Is it time for Mathammer?

[crisp idol]

yeah I guess we should

[jolly helm]

4 on charge -> 2 hits -> 0.68 wounds ap2 on the dagger

[crisp idol]

I mean, the way I see it is one is an AP2 initiative weapon with less chance to wound, and the other is going to consistently land wounds

[green roost]

Oh good, someone else is doing the math part

[jolly helm]

4 -> 2 -> 1.5 for Sword. After 2+ it's like .25 and After 3+ it's .45 ish

[crisp idol]

ignore armour save

chainsword is better

[jolly helm]

Dagger is just better, except if I missed something because I did without calculator

[jolly helm]

That's not how the game work though.

[crisp idol]

no i mean

[jolly helm]

Better wounding is useless if you don't kill

[green roost]

I think its important to narrow this down to who we're given the weapons to, Troop Sergeants or independant characters

[jolly helm]

Troop sarg

[green roost]

From what I understand, a Troop Sergeant can't take 2 Chainswords?

[crisp idol]

OK then, what do we expect our sergeants to be doing

dueling other sergeants?

[green roost]

But they could take a chainsword and a Power Dagger

[jolly helm]

Before i was giving Power fist to kill other sarg or a centurion with luck

[crisp idol]

that defeats the whole purpose, because then its 10pts and you have a choice of any other power weapon?

[jolly helm]

But gaining 15pts PER squad is huge.

[green roost]

I'm planning to give them a power sword and a power dagger

for maximum power

[crisp idol]

why

[jolly helm]

Why ?

[crisp idol]

you dont gain an extra attack

[green roost]

its fun

[jolly helm]

Bolt pistol gives you that attack

[crisp idol]

its bolt pistol CCW

always has been

https://tenor.com/view/always-has-been-among-us-astronaut-space-betrayal-gif-23836476

[jolly helm]

Honestly, on any sarg, that dagger is awesome.

You don't want to kit tactical or support squad for mêlée

[crisp idol]

hmmmm, I can see the AP3 being useful yeah, your basically getting a discount sword with a serious downside

[green roost]

You don't have to give up your bolt pistol when taking a power dagger
and you would get an extra attack from having two melee weapons

[jolly helm]

But on the grand flow of battle and of things, dagger will give you those sweet moments

[crisp idol]

artificer, power dagger, land the charge and you have a good chance of killing the opponent before he can attack, which is ideal

[jolly helm]

Don't rely 100% on the dagger

[crisp idol]

you still only have 4 attacks

[jolly helm]

But for 5pts it's a Thorn your opponent can't ignore

[crisp idol]

can you use the default S4 AP- attack profile instead of the dagger if you have it?

[jolly helm]

I can't wait to Mercy kill a power fist Sargent with my dagger.

[crisp idol]

although again as you say, ignoring saves IS kind of the point

[jolly helm]

I think so.

[green roost]

Real Question:
Should I take a Command Squad filled with Lightning Claws?

[jolly helm]

And when daggers are spammed (HeadHunters) they are really something that will mess your opponent.

[jolly helm]

I tend to avoid dual claws spam.

[twin finch]

No, you should take twin Thunder Hammers! Dont let your dreams be memes!!

[jolly helm]

2-3 dudes are ok, 3 with Hammers, 3 with chainfists.

[green roost]

I don't think Command Squads can take Thunder Hammers

[twin finch]

And thats your problem, your thinking, dont think, just do!

[crisp idol]

shred is great, rending 6+ is nice but not great to fish for, specialist weapon hampers the attack output

[jolly helm]

That's why I don't take Tyrant

[green roost]

But they're my only anti-tank and are great in Night Fighting

[jolly helm]

But a melee god unit from another légion.

[jolly helm]

Well...

[green roost]

I thought I wasn't allowed to bring Angron?

[crisp idol]

jesus christ I would not want to be any power armoured squad near them

venom spheres are terrifying enough with poison 3+

ASSAULT 6

[jolly helm]

They are eating up veterans i'm sure.

[green roost]

One use though

boooo

[crisp idol]

why do you have 6 in a command squad, isnt the limit 5

[jolly helm]

Eck, even artificer command Squad are not going to be happy...

[crisp idol]

eh, headhunters will lose models fast unless they get the charge off and sudden strike does its job

[jolly helm]

Except if it change with the New priented rules, on draft 3 it was UP to 10 dudes in a command Squad.

[green roost]

Currently it is 9 I believe

[jolly helm]

Isn't it 2 + standard and can add up to 7 ?

[green roost]

Additional 6 is what I'm seeing

[jolly helm]

Ok so maybe 9

But still, it's a big chunky units if Cataphractii being line

[green roost]

4 Chosen with Double Claws
and a Standard Bearer with a Power Fist?

[jolly helm]

Even 5+Praetor is gross.

[crisp idol]

huh, command squads are WS5 to the regular terminators WS4

interesting

[jolly helm]

Are you trying to double up your HH army for 40k as well ?

[green roost]

no, why?

are lightning claws not great in 30k?

[jolly helm]

I don't know. Double claws ain't that good spammed.

[crisp idol]

I mean

[green roost]

I mean, it's 2 extra attacks

[crisp idol]

in 2.0? with multiple wounds? probably not

[jolly helm]

5 dude i'd put at most 2 dual claws

[crisp idol]

claws are anti-MEQ

they are not anti-TEQ

if you are fishing for 6's against multi-wound terminators, your gonna have a bad time

[jolly helm]

And your command Squad want to squash lesser Termies or fight well against "Real" Termies.

[green roost]

ah ok

so what would be better against terminators?

[crisp idol]

they aren't instant death, and they aren't AP2

[jolly helm]

You want power fist/chain fist against 2 wounds for instant death

[crisp idol]

Power/chainfist or TH

[jolly helm]

On top you have chosen Warriors so your dude Can solo up a Praetor for a fraction of the cost.

[crisp idol]

chainfist is dual purpose

[green roost]

Looks like command sqauds can't take chainfists

[crisp idol]

cataphractii can

just regular can't

[jolly helm]

Sure Termies can

[twin finch]

Dual T Hammers!

[green roost]

Would my Lernaens work then?
Give them some Chainfists?

[jolly helm]

I'd put 2 fist + 2 chainfists and 1 double claws to avoid tarpit by a squad of 20 tacticals

A chosen Warrior with fist letting your Praetor cut through the blob with thé dual claws.

Merciless massacre

[crisp idol]

right now, as the points stand, its +15 to put a chainfist on a lernean; I really don't see it being worth kitting lerneans out for anti-vehicle combat

[green roost]

Lol, why are Chainfists more expensive for Lernaens

[jolly helm]

Lernies are bad outside of Pride spam lines list

[green roost]

but they're so coooool : [[[

[crisp idol]

no idea, but its just how it is right now; lerneans are pretty locked to axes

[jolly helm]

Use the models for your Command Squad.

[green roost]

Not a bad idea

[jolly helm]

It's what I'll do.

[green roost]

They'll get line too, which was my mine draw to Lernaens

and now I don't have to worry about their Vulkite Weapons or fancy shoulders

[crisp idol]

line and IWND

lerneans are fucking tough bastards

and effective BS5

[jolly helm]

I understand the point, but Can you really feel the Idea of using Élite slots for them when you Can take other stuff ?

[green roost]

I don't have any other Elites in my army anyway

[crisp idol]

sorry, fuck me, lerneans are +15pts for POWERFIST and 20 POINTS FOR CHAINFISTS

[jolly helm]

In a Pride list where your troops Termies are Line, 3 lernies + Firedrake with Hérald + termi command Squad with Standard and some primus Medicae is like "dying ? What's that ?"

Lernies with Conversion beamer in the back. Everything else up front

Plays everything cheap tax (full axes standard Termies) except Firedrakes/Command Squad

And fill everything with Land raider / Spartans.

[crisp idol]

250pts for a line terminator squad is a good deal tbh

[jolly helm]

I am sure we can make such list works.

[jolly helm]

With Pride regular Termies are 175 no ?

[crisp idol]

I do wonder what ranged weapon to give them; I don't feel conversion beamers are all that, and plasma blasters ate the nerf bat

[jolly helm]

Just play cheap msu

Full lines

[crisp idol]

I think volkite culverin would be good, but meh

and yeah fair point on pride

[jolly helm]

Lernies are unkillable almost.

[crisp idol]

pride of the legion is pretty great still

[green roost]

So for 250pts I can get a 5person Cataphracti Command Squad with
2 Power Fists
2 Chain Fists
1xTwin Claws

[jolly helm]

Regular Termies won't draw enough power to kill them fast because Firedrakes and command Squad are going insidd your opponent.

[crisp idol]

I think they will readily lose combat with WS4 to anything WS5

[jolly helm]

They won't be touch by that

[crisp idol]

your'll hit the same, but will get smashed in return

[jolly helm]

At most they'll take assault Squad.

[crisp idol]

3+ is just too good

[jolly helm]

If your Lernies got touch by WS5 units, it means Firedrake/command Squad and regular Termies swarming mid table are dead.

You'd have Other issue in such a situation imo ^^

[crisp idol]

honestly I feel veterans are a better choice in some ways

unless your facing incredible firepower

[green roost]

Then I can take 1 5person unit of Lernaens with a Conversion Beam to hold backline objectives for 265pts

[crisp idol]

even then, shrouded, cover saves, etc

[jolly helm]

I think it's the way to go yeah.

[green roost]

Thank ya'll for your help : ]

[crisp idol]

not to mention, veterans will be killing models with nemesis bolters

[crisp idol]

that's OK dude

[jolly helm]

For 315 pts iirc you have a full 10 vétérans Squad with Némésis bolter keeping your rear objectives :p

[green roost]

no is dude silly

[jolly helm]

Then yeah, 2 squads of them, 3 Learnies mid boards and Firedrakes with Herald/command Squad Big unkillable.

Everything is line

And need to be dealt with to the end.

Add chocolat chips of Land raider/ Spartans and fill what's left with more terminators

[green roost]

Well now you're really selling my on Pride of the Legion

[jolly helm]

I am looking on that RoW for my AL since a few days

But i just want my 40 nameless tacticals ^^

[crisp idol]

you settled on firedrakes? i think it suzerians for me

[green roost]

More Termies? Yes pls

[jolly helm]

Firedrakes got IWND aswell

3+ invul

Master crafted everything

With Herald they got Line.

[crisp idol]

right but I'd rather not face a squad of paragonbladed-equivalent monsters

[jolly helm]

In a sense far from équivalent as the axes are "only" ap2

No instant death

[green roost]

Cept I could only take 1 unit of Headhunters

[crisp idol]

oh are they not? my bad

just AP2 initiative

[jolly helm]

I think that's enough if you Can find 145pts

[crisp idol]

tbh I think headhunters are nuts

[green roost]

yeah, but 2 units of 10 with Multimeltas are better

[jolly helm]

Drop them, focus a squad with an apothecary or smth

Charges in.

[crisp idol]

great cover saves, infiltrate, scout to get close, can unload in the first turn and do some absolute carnage on a heavy support squad or something

[jolly helm]

You Can get only 1 Melta per Squad thiugh

[green roost]

Yeah, but its enough

[jolly helm]

That's why i don't understand the purpose of HH in more than 5 suicide squads

[green roost]

Point any squad at a Character and it dies

[jolly helm]

Not true

They are not sniper, so your Melta shot have to bé 4+ to hit thé character

[green roost]

True

[jolly helm]

So that 3 is still in the Squad.

[green roost]

That's why I bring two units

[jolly helm]

Outside Leviathal, i would use HeadHunters to destroy msu MEQ

[green roost]

or maybe 4 units of 5...

[crisp idol]

imagine missing with the multimelta

[green roost]

with Leviathal

[crisp idol]

BS5 lol

[jolly helm]

Heavy support squads, Tactical Supports, Seekers, etc.

[green roost]

Multimelta gets full re-rolls

So you'd have to get double 1s

[crisp idol]

does need an IC in the squad

that's the issue

[green roost]

huh?

[crisp idol]

they only have preferred enemy IC

[green roost]

oh yeah

[jolly helm]

Or to cheese kill apothecaries or, as per say above, Standard Bearers in a command Squad or Herald in everything

[crisp idol]

and sergeants aren't ICs

[green roost]

but the multimelta gets it form being twin linked

[jolly helm]

Multi Melta is twin linked thiugh

[crisp idol]

oh yeah

guess a reroll is a reroll

😄

[green roost]

Now I'm getting 4 5 man sqauds with a Multimelta for 145 pts each

[jolly helm]

Pride with 1 squd of 5 HH with Melta are cheap and can destroy gameplans or meq spécial units

[green roost]

Stick Exodus in one and my Sabotuer in the other

and yeah...but Headhunters are COOOOOOLLL

[jolly helm]

I won't be happy to lose my Standard Bearer on those dude.

I don't even have Plans for Exodus ah ah

[green roost]

Exodus is just there for even more Snipe

[crisp idol]

huh, whats the difference between sniper and precision shots?

[jolly helm]

Praetor, Herald, Praevian or Librarian

[green roost]

Sniper is always a Precision Shot

[jolly helm]

Sniper is perma précision shot

[crisp idol]

(unless snapshotting)

[jolly helm]

Praevian seems nut with AL rule

[crisp idol]

praevians are nuts with every rule

[jolly helm]

Those Castellax being 2" away feel great and I don't even got thé Castellax rules xD

[crisp idol]

iron hands praevians are the stuff of nightmares

[green roost]

Banestrike Nemesis Bolters when?

[jolly helm]

Never

[crisp idol]

I actually think Castellax are shit this edition; VORAX will be terrifying

[green roost]

Oh what, they have rending

[jolly helm]

We don't have rules for them yet no ?

[green roost]

Nemesis Bolters for Headhunters when?

[crisp idol]

let me check my "fake" but entirely accurate to warcom leak doc

[jolly helm]

DM me mate :p

Have to go to sleep. 0:45 here ^^

[crisp idol]

S U AP4 Breaching 5+ for the blades

[jolly helm]

T 6????

Bawahaha

[crisp idol]

effective toughness 7 on IH, like fuck me

[jolly helm]

"Bolters ? Nope"

[crisp idol]

castellax are WS3

so yeah they hurt but will struggle to punch anything

[jolly helm]

But Big bots

[crisp idol]

huh, Vorax dont have relentless? so can't move and fire

unless its part of the automata rule

[jolly helm]

Don't know thé rule exactly just thé part on controller

[jolly helm]

Rotor Cannons are assault though, no ?

[crisp idol]

S3 AP-

good job they can't reaction fire; I wouldn't want to eat a lightning gun to the face

yeah fuck those dudes charging you

S6 vs T3 and bye bye terminators

[crisp idol]

I slept on it, a command squad with Hydran Exemplar will be hilarious; you'll hit on 3+ while your opponent is on 4+, should handily win combats

Genuinely think that's some bullshit people won't deal with well

[jolly helm]

Hydran Excursor Warlord trait ?

That's the list I plan to play.

Herald inside Crimson Paladin or Firedrake so they gain line in Spartan
Praetor Hydran Excursor inside a Command Squad (Line with Standard) in Spartan aswell

Big blobs of marines with Apothecary sleeping on objectives

Specialized other units to do stuff.

Firedrake will be rerolling 1 from Forge-Master rules
Command Squad hitting on 3+ everything

[green roost]

Rotor Cannon? Sounds like someone brought a Maxim Gun to a Bolter fight

[jolly helm]

Rotor Cannons are cooool

[left herald]

Q: how are you going to use Alpharius in your list, and what are you going to take to shore up his weaknesses?

[jolly helm]

So.

Thunder Hammers Terminators Command Squad.

Cataphractii for 4++ or Tartaros for +1" Move and Sweeping Advance ?

[green roost]

Depends on who you're paring them with
If you have a fast hard hitting character who want's to get stuck in Melee I say Tartaros
If you want to hold the line go with Cataphractii

[crisp idol]

Dynat would love some Tartarus buddies

[green roost]

Now I'm Thinking Dynat
Plus a 5xTartaros Command Squad with
2 Chain Fists
2 Power Fists
and a pair of Lightning Claws
235pts

Send him up the board to hold the line and cause trouble

[jolly helm]

Why no Thunder hammers though ?

[jolly helm]

I don't know what Dynat do Specificaly.

[jolly helm]

But my Praetor would want to be what he does best as a Praetor, cutting down marines.

[crisp idol]

Dynat is a combat monster

[jolly helm]

Yeah, I mean, as all named characters are

Bonker bullshit almost forcing you to play them for how good they are compared to generic options.

The sole fact his Thunderhammer is not Specialist Weapons makes him so good.

[hushed cliff]

The prophet doesn’t have Brutal(2) unlike other thunder hammers, but S9 AP2 and the free extra power sword attack is neat

[jolly helm]

Oh, so Thunder Hammer being brutal is a sure stuff then.

So, Tartaros Thunder Hammer Command Squad ?

I'm "afraid" of the 5++

[jolly helm]

How would you play Trident weapons ?

Power Spear ?

[twin finch]

Thunder Hammer!

[jolly helm]

I am clearly wanting to take this road.

I will play it as Parangon Blade for my Praetor.

But really want to play TH for my other units ^^'

[chrome frost]

I have a question about the wording on Headhunter Leviathal. It says "...more fast attack units than Heavy support..." Does this mean if I have zero heavy Support, I still need one Fast attack?

[jolly helm]

I'd Say yes

Just play one if those HeadHunters in FA

[chrome frost]

Yeah, I was thinking the same. Since it doesn't give Headhunter Line, there's functionally no difference. I was just needing clarification

[timid hamlet]

Being able to take headhunters as troops barely matters it feels, unless you want a metric load of them

[jolly helm]

In a sense, it matters.

3 squads of 5 completing 3 squads of tacticals means you have free room to get those 2 vp's (no body will like 15 shots of Melta I guess), while being able to play Fast Attacks that matters (Javelins per say)

[chrome frost]

Sooo... I didn't realize Headhunters can take meltas until now... this is new

[jolly helm]

They can take macro combi for 5pts

Which you can give them combi melta for a one shot.

• Multi Melta on the Sarg (for exemple)

[chrome frost]

Ah... that helps with my lack of anti-tank in my list. I was originally relying on my 2 Melta Contemptors, but this definitely helps

[jolly helm]

In headhunter Leviathal, even more than in general, the only goal of Headhunters to me is to be suicide squad sniping characters.

Apothecaries, Standard from Command Squad to remove Line, Warlord per say, etc.

They shot what they can, then they charge to stick to the unit a bit, maybe cut one or two throats thanks to AP2 Initiative 5 attacks.

5 Headhunters charging are like 21 attacks of those nasty pointy sneaky knives.

[chrome frost]

I like the idea of Suicide Headhunters. This is a new way to look at them. What do you use to hold out for the rest of the game?

[jolly helm]

You can see my 2500pts list #987335789753040896 here if you want.

I don't even use Headhunters.

But if I would, I think i'd play a relatively similar list, 2 big blobs of identical marines under apothecary on an objective make them Stubborn PLUS feel no pain 4+

[chrome frost]

Oh... that was your list. fair enough

[jolly helm]

Removing the Command squad + Landraider gives you 2-3 Headhunters units.

I'll give try to 2 headhunters units suicide doodies.

I recon @primal crow was making the awesome point of Grenade Launcher Combi weapons on Headhunsters.

Spamming mighty 4 templates per squad each turn on top of the melta shot.

To be more specific, in a Headhunter Leviathal, I would play Dynat.

3 Squads of 15 marines with Apothecaries (2 infiltrating with Dynat)
3 Squads of suicide Headhunters (2 in troops 1 in not troops)
1 squad of plasma suicide dude (Infiltrating with Dynat)

Dreads.
A reward of treachery units (Tyrants ?)

And surely a second wave with Dynat and Terminators inside Landraider/Spartan,

[green roost]

The best thing about Alphy Legion is that I can have a World Eater's Spartan drop off a bunch of Iron Warrior's Terminators to fight next to my Blood Angels Dreadnought

[regal kiln]

It's truly glorious 😂

[left herald]

Still not convinced you can mix in more than one legion

Also a little disappointed that headhunters can't take disintegrator combi weapons

[jolly helm]

Sarg cant ?

[left herald]

Nope. Rules for disintegrator combis say only ICs or Seekers

[jolly helm]

Well, then just take Seekers no ?

Wanted to obliterate an IC with Précise Shot ? Seems you can't :p

[left herald]

That's what exodus is for

And thinking of doing the HH army

[past latch]

lol, in the German Liber Hereticus Alpharius gets Fleshbane instead of Armorbane on the Pale Spear

[crisp idol]

That seems like an oversight

Fleshbane is kind of redundant anyway

And last thing you need is dreadnoughts rerolling your wound saves

[crisp idol]

Thought this would be the case; genuinely a disappointing oversight I hope is FAQd

[left herald]

Oh

The Lernaen Harrower has 3W

That's nice

With the IWND

Lernaens with Primus Medicae would be bloody difficult to shift

Can you take a transport and make it infiltrating and have non-intiltrating units in it?

[left herald]

Wish banestrike was ammo rather than bolter

Would love to have combi weapon but keep banestrike

[jolly helm]

Imagine not being able to give command Squad banestrike ammo.

Ah ah.

No I'm kidding.

But imagine.

[crisp idol]

Primus Medicae is gonna be redundant if your opponent is smart enough to run powerfists or thunderhammers

[left herald]

Redundant Vs those specific attacks yes

[left herald]

If Alpharius or another character takes a chosen retinue thing, they seem to count as the same unit so they'd gain his Infiltrate when he is handing out his rules without having to spend one of the 'floating' 3 other infiltrates on them?

[crisp idol]

I mean, I'm just trying to point out your spending a lot of points on a potentially redundant ability

[crisp idol]

Characters or units joining are not counted as the same under the infiltrate special rule; both the joiner and the unit must have it

You can use alpharius to confer infiltrate to the unit and the Primus Medicae, and still have one other infiltrating unit

[idle falcon]

The mushroom is struggling again! My idea was to turn the 40 mk6 into 20/20 headhunters and seekers - but does these basicallly do the same thing? Is there a world where I’d want that many of both? Or should I drop the seekers and maybe make something else? I have enough tacticals so it’s only fancy things I need.

Appreciate any thoughts before I start carving guys up and making giant errors!

[crisp idol]

Ignore me I'm tired

I just run my headhunters models as seekers when I feel like it (which was all the time in 1.0)

I would build 20 headhunters and save the rest

If your crazy WYSIWYG, magnetise the arms for combiweapons and stuff

[idle falcon]

That could work - I could also just do 25 (a few extra to swap multi meltas in or out) and that gives me 15 for vets or command squad

Much appreciated it man

[twin finch]

I dont see why you would ever run Headhunters as Seekers, their an upgrade. Like unless you super value Banestrike Bolts I feel like Headhunters are just a straight upgrade

[idle falcon]

When you guys run the HH do you swap the Banestrike Combi for like a Plasma Combi or just take multi melta and banestrike?

[crisp idol]

that is entirely up to you

[crisp idol]

1.0 headhunters are horrifically bad, they were poorly priced and very difficult to use effectively; they were like a bad terror squad

honestly I cannot reiterate how bad 1.0 headhunters were

like Iron hands ran their immortals as breachers (until the FAQ), we ran out headhunters as seekers

because they were just so bad

[twin finch]

Ive heard that, Im just sayin, in 2.0 they just seem better then seekers in nearly every way. The range on their guns could maybe be a little longer, but otherwise they seem super good

[crisp idol]

oh for sure

in 2.0, I think headhunters have a realniche

they are this wonderful midrange assault troops, really deadly at their bolter range and with the alpha legion special rule

they are priced very competitively, and they can take a multi-melta and just annihilate anything with a HQ hiding in it

[idle falcon]

Awesome - well I’ll do 25 or 30 so I can throw a few Combi in there with some options to mix and match if I need

[crisp idol]

then charge and mop up

[idle falcon]

Thanks a lot!

[crisp idol]

that's OK mushroom; I'm pretty sure the combi-weapon is non-banestrike

because its no longer a combi-bolter

[idle falcon]

Yeah that’s a shame

[crisp idol]

if you want the squad to be longer range sniper style unit, its ideal

you'll get that extra range

in 1.0 it was about that dirty rapid-fire they could pull off

[twin finch]

Oh, I thought they kept the banestrike when they did Combi-melta....

[crisp idol]

you know, its not clear

it just says a "combi-weapon"

and its not a "banestrike combi-melta"

[idle falcon]

It says in the unit entry to replace banestrike Combi bolter with Combi weapon so I was assuming you lost it

[crisp idol]

in fact, there is only a profile for a banestrike bolter and a banestrike combi-bolter

[idle falcon]

And the Banestrike rule section doesn’t mention upgrading Combi weapon

[crisp idol]

there is not a profile for banestrike combi-whatever

I was hoping it would be FAQ'd along with the coils and the rewards of treason interactions

[left herald]

HH can't get disintergrator. Seekers can

[left herald]

That would be amazing

[crisp idol]

yes we know, but they can still take a combi-whatever

I was hoping an FAQ would also allow them to take combi-disintegrators

as they are legion special seekers

[left herald]

I'd be on that like a rash

[twin finch]

Are combi-disentigrators worth it tho? Its a great shot, but its only 1 shot

Oh, shit, are all the major combis one shot??

Well crud, now Im not sure that any of the major combis are worth it.... I thought it was like 9th where they were just pew pew with the secondary gun

[idle falcon]

Yeah that was my worry on whether it was worth bringing them or not because of the one shot - or hoping that banestrike can get the job done on an IC

[left herald]

I think Id rather take a support squad

in addition

[crisp idol]

wait they are? I thought they were multi-shot

thats why their magna

[twin finch]

Nope, Plasma, Melta, and Disentigrators are all one shot

[crisp idol]

are minor not multi-use then, if they are the old flamer/volkite/grenade launcher?

[twin finch]

Nope, Minor are multi-use

[crisp idol]

yeah sorry that's what I mean

[twin finch]

So dumb. I dont think a single Melta shot is worth 10 pts....

[crisp idol]

where does it say you can fire minor multiple times?

oh it's the "one shot" rule

[twin finch]

Yeah

[crisp idol]

hmmm, disintegrator is worth 10 points

arguably, plasma is not bad either since you can fire both the plasma and bolter at the same time in rapid fire range

so your unloading 4 shots compared to 2 for 10 points

[twin finch]

Yeah, but is 2 plasma shots worth 10 pts? I dont know. Like I would actually think a Venom Sphere is better and I dont think thats worth 10 pts

[crisp idol]

I mean your doubling your number of shots you take in an attack, once

and those shots are nasty, especially if they are disintegrate

also plasma IS Str7

so on BS5, worth it

melta looks terrible by comparison actually

one additional shot at range 12, so you better hope you hit

I GUESS its assault

but at that point, volkite is cheaper, 3" further, twice the number of attacks, and deflagrates

it just isn't AP1

or Str8

[twin finch]

Yeah. Tho Id take Melta more for the armorbane. Dreads are gonna be the meta.

[crisp idol]

I was looking, their power fists got even better

[twin finch]

Yeah, they seem super undercosted for what you get

[crisp idol]

fury of the ancients will be the shitkicking meta for sure

iron warriors will do well by virtue of having +1S to dreads

[timid hamlet]

Has anyone done the math to find out if leaving them with the banestrike is worth it

[round wagon]

So what's the common thinking on assembling the new box as Alpha Legion? 20 tactical and 20 support? Convert it all to headhunters?

[idle falcon]

I’m doing 30 as HH but only cause I’m kind of inverting my fancy armour with my boring dudes and vice versa

I may do the other ten as command or vets? But I’m too newb to know what to equip em with so they can sit in the box for now! 🕺🏻

[jolly helm]

The new dreads work wonderfully with multi wounds. Which HH has not spread enough.

Lascan and Melta at least could have been brutal 2.

[crisp idol]

Lascannons got Sunder; they don't need anything else :P

[full holly]

If you have vets riding around in rhinos what special weapons would you give them, still plasma or maybe melta now?

[crisp idol]

You always want/need 20 tacs

The rest is up to you

[crisp idol]

That I have no idea; honestly I'd either do missiles or nemesis bolters

[full holly]

Kinda leaning with banestrikes, want something like plasma or melta but I'm not sure which one will be more efficient

[crisp idol]

You can't do that, they are IC only

[full holly]

Says here for 2 points veterans can take them

[jolly helm]

Yes, vets can take Banestrike Bolter indeed

[crisp idol]

Huh they can eh?

I guess at 2pts they are a good upgrade for potential AP2 hits

[left herald]

They'll ID most things

[left herald]

Ok. I'm thinking I'm not going to do either of the RoW. Headhunter was almost tempting me but I don't like not having vehicles at the start and I'm not going to have more than a couple of HH units anyway. And for the other I don't fancy just 3x units on the board

[muted bobcat]

I might be wrong, but if you use dreadnoughts instead, you could have em on board with headhunter

If you want to use that RoW

[left herald]

I could do but I really want a sicaran venator

[muted bobcat]

Ah yup if thats the case

[left herald]

and if I need a couple of units of tacticals for Line anyway then I'm not taking more than 2-3 headhunter units

[muted bobcat]

Headhunters dont get line anyway so its not as appealing as i thought it would be for me

[left herald]

ye

[muted bobcat]

I thiught that was a faux pas, but it seems not all RoWs gave line to troop org changes

[left herald]

This is what I'm thinking atm

Alpha Legion - 3k - Vanilla

Primarch
Alpharius 465

HQ
Praetor, Master-Crafted Paragon Blade, Power Fist, Venom Spheres, Scimitar Jetbike 225
4 Command Squad, 3 Power Weapons, Power Fist and Lightning Claw, Combat Shields, Scimitar Jetbikes 266
Exodus 165
Consul? MoS? ~95

Elites
5 Learneans, Conversion Beam 265
(Stolen Unit) ~300

Troops
10 Tactical Marines, Artificer Armour, Melta Bomb 120
10 Tactical Marines, Artificer Armour, Melta Bomb 120
Tactical Support Squad? Plasma/Melta?

Fast Attack
10 Headhunters, Multi Melta, Artificer Armour 255
10 Headhunters, Multi Melta, Artificer Armour 255
Xiphon Interceptor 105

Heavy Support
Sicaran Venator, Sponson Lascannons, Searchlight 215

[left herald]

Are the command squad on jetbikes doing anything for me?

[muted bobcat]

Thats a lot of points on an hq slot with a primarch

Personally i trim my hq choices if i use a primarch, but all that melee in fast bodies look good

[left herald]

yeah I'm not sure whether to take the command squad out and just run the praetor against smaller squads and tanks, or leave the CS in and go for bigger terminator units etc

[muted bobcat]

Just wondering how you are moving alpharius up? Infiltrate with no retinue? Or with a support squad i guess? The command squad with praetor is ok, i guess just drop the fist on praetor and venom spheres since you got fists on the command squad and save you some points for the support squad/treachery

[left herald]

was taking the fist to gain +1A with paragon

could swap for lightning claw but thought the 10pts or so would be worth to give anti armour option

and venom spheres I thought might be worth 10pts as he'll be looking to charge a lot

If I drop the command squad I could fit in a contemptor to infiltrate...

mostly because I love this model

[river stag]

Do people like the Conversion Beam Cannon on Lernaean terminators?

I figured having a single long range weapon wouldn’t be particularly helpful, but I haven’t played yet and could be wrong

[left herald]

I like it

cheap for potential big dmg

[crisp idol]

I think it's a false economy; it's not very good below 42", and the volkite culverin is deadly and more reliable

Stolen unit I'd go siege tyrants

[left herald]

300pts for 10 BS4 Krak missiles/turn vs 10 HSS with ML for 235pts

[crisp idol]

That the emperor's children sunkillers?

[left herald]

no thats the Siege Tyrants

[wind river]

so. what would you guys reccomend for a newbie to HH who bought the box set? I really wanna do headhunter kill teams. they seem very cool and thematic.

[crisp idol]

Headhunters go on mk4 kits; were not overly clear on compatibility

But you'll be missing a hand on your Mk6 guys because both of them go on bolters

I'd recommend 20 tacs, some kind of support (either tactical or heavy), run one of the praetors as a champion or saboteur and the other as something else

Then get the praetors from forgeworld

The cataphractii can either be a squad of 10, or I'd consider splitting then into 3-5 man command squad and another squad of 5-7

[left herald]

I'm going off my idea of stealing Iron Circle

Could take contemptor instead

25pts more for 1, although 65pts more for 2. But you get increased Ws, Bs, W, I and Sv, and slightly better weapons

Only things the ICircle seem to be better on is points and can get 4+ invun when in b2b

So list is now down to one of the DA special units, crimson paladins, firedrakes, or something else cool I haven't considered

[jolly helm]

Iron circle comes with the Techmarine/ForgeLord/Praevian tax

[crisp idol]

Honestly, I don't even think they are that good

Legiones thallaxes is better

[left herald]

Why?

[left herald]

Maybe the TS dreadnought or the Mhara Gal

[left herald]

is it me or is Alpharius gonna be great at wrecking tanks?

[strong zealot]

to control them, they're cybernetica

[left herald]

Can just use them without though?

[strong zealot]

yes but then you're dealing with cybernetica never being in cortex range

they can only shoot the closest thing, and must charge the closest thing they can see

[left herald]

so just move them to be where you want?

[strong zealot]

very easy to tarpit or forced into charging something they don't want to be

[left herald]

either way I'm going off them compared to dreads

1kSons/Word Bearers dreads looking potentially tasty to steal

Infiltrating a Mhara Gal seems particularly mean

[round wagon]

Okay, so assembling the starter with a pack of special weapons... Thinking that equates to: 2x10 tactical, 10 plasma support, 10x volkite support, then 6 cataphractii claws and 4 chain fists?

Second support and terminators feel the most questionable. First purchase after this will probably be headhunters and maybe siege tyrants?

I could hold off arming the terminators to get the resin weapon bits

[left herald]

I'd drop the volkite support and make them HH instead

[round wagon]

The Headhunter parts don't fit on the Mk6 bodies though.

[left herald]

Just grab some spare plastic cloaks and green stuff and make your own conversion? Should be fine

[wind river]

what is needed to make a Head Hunter kill team?

[shy owl]

Any suggestions on cloaks? I guess dark elf corsairs have the scale cloaks

[shy owl]

Replace the other hand with one holding a knife or grenade or something

[crisp idol]

You have to do that for all of them as mk6s lack the cradling hand

[left herald]

That could be pretty cool if they fit

[solemn dragon]

Cut the bolter out of the mk VI hand

[shy owl]

Or cut the pit out of the head hunter bolt gun

[round wagon]

It definitely takes some work to get Corsair cloaks to fit marines. I wonder if I can find some Mk4 leg and arm STLs and upscale them to the new size, and use the FW upgrade kits.

[regal kiln]

You can trim off the torso halves from the new mk6 to make the Headhunter torsos fit without too much effort. Might be a pain for a whole squad, but could be a good look for squad leaders

[round wagon]

seems easier to print the missing parts at new scale, haha

[rigid topaz]

Possibly an unusual idea, but what about Grey Slayers/Stalkers as RoT?

They look like solid, versatile troops to me

[left herald]

Was wondering about that

[round wagon]

Think the AL MK4 heads will look out of place on the MK6 bodies?

[oblique lotus]

Troop upgrades is it worth to get the upgraded bolter?

[muted bobcat]

Upgraded bolter? Like you mean the bayonets?

Because if you mean banestrike bolts, troops dont have access to them

[oblique lotus]

I did mean banestrike I guess need to re watch the video

[round wagon]

Are banestrike veterans worthwhile?

[frail rivet]

can alpharius really deep strike a kratos?

I thought it had to have legion astartes (x)

[round wagon]

Why wouldn't the kratos have Legion Astartes (X)?

[frail rivet]

i may be confusing it with 1.0 where vehicles didnt have LA rules

[muted bobcat]

So far everything has LA(x)

Not counting Lords of war

Nvm lords of war too

[past latch]

Alphi is pretty bonkers. Deepstriking/Infiltrating LoW are pretty mean

[left herald]

meh - by that point you're up to silly army sizes anyway

[round wagon]

it also means being closer to chainfists

[past latch]

how about tree full Contempter Talons?

[left herald]

needs moar leviathans

[round wagon]

So AL tacticals, i'm thinking bayonettes might not be bad even on small units, just to give a little more bite. Enemies are going to fail more charges, so taking advantage of that doens't seem bad, though running away might be safer a lot of the time.

Not sure if doubling down for chain bayonets is going to be worth it though

[left herald]

I'm only taking a couple of 10 man squads for objectives so probably won't bother

[round wagon]

Makes sense, transports?

[left herald]

nah

will just run them round as needed. Will likely have unit of Lerneans and jetbike command squad for line too

[round wagon]

Gotcha... I'm still mucking around on how to build my other 20 tacticals. I've got the special weapon set already and have HH coming. I think 10 tactical support with plasma sounds like a good start. I kinda want to do a second tactical support squad too, but taht's mostly to get the most out of this box of guns, haha.

[earnest eagle]

Any ideas for rewards of treachery units

[twin finch]

Im thinking of taking the T-Sons Librarian Dread =p

[jolly helm]

You plan to win how with 2 squads of 10 though ?

You can't score vp if you are not Line.

[round wagon]

I'm eyeing siege tyrants, dark furies, mor deythan, and suzerain

[left herald]

2x tacs, command squad, lerneans

[jolly helm]

Only 10 make 2 tac almost inexistant.

They'll be blown at.

[left herald]

that means my valuable units arent being shot

[jolly helm]

For what, half a turn.

[earnest eagle]

Yeah I was thinking about tyrants and furies as well

[twin finch]

Mo Deythan are kool, but they do a thing were already pretty good at. Siege Tyrants and Suzerian do look kool! And the BAs Blood Paladins(But that might just be their STLs/Models bein drop dead gorgeous)

[left herald]

and when I'm infiltrating 5+ units that's ok by me

[round wagon]

but they do it with two wounds, lol

[twin finch]

Lol, true

[jolly helm]

Crimson Paladins are on my list with Firedrakes...

[earnest eagle]

I was also thinking about a space wolves allied detachment for the Mobius configuration

[left herald]

I have a thing for the DA units

[jolly helm]

Shieldy terminators <3

[round wagon]

I got to looking at them (Mo Deyth) after I was thinking about a veteran squad with banestrike bolters

[twin finch]

Firedrakes are nice, but I can not stand the official model

[jolly helm]

Mobius need to be hard nerf.

It's far too powerful.

[twin finch]

Lol, its extremely good. But lets wait and see how it actually plays out before we go nerfing stuff!

[jolly helm]

They nerfed Hydran Excursor in testing phase where it was nowhere near as strong as Mobius

[twin finch]

0.0

[earnest eagle]

Why firedrakes what is good about them

[jolly helm]

Master crafted thunder Hammers, 3++ invul and iwnd

[earnest eagle]

Oh nice

[twin finch]

But their sooo ugly

[earnest eagle]

I kinda like them I dig the shields

[oblique lotus]

Am I allowed to post my list here

[earnest eagle]

Go right ahead

[round wagon]

I'd be tempted to get some alpha legion shields printed and make your own AL versions instead

The lore seems to be that they're trained in how to fight like other legions, doesn't mean they have to shop at the same store, haha

[oblique lotus]

++ Crusade (Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Army List) [1,492pts] ++

• HQ: +

Praetor, Legion [167pts]: Artificer Armour, Bolter with only Banestrike rounds, Iron Halo, On Foot, Plasma Pistol, Venom Spheres, Warlord
. Power Weapon: Power Lance

• Elites: +

Contemptor-Cortus Class Dreadnought Talon [145pts]
. Cortus Dreadnought: Plasma Cannon
. . Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon: Twin-linked Bolter

• Troops: +

Tactical Squad, Legion [170pts]: Bolters, 9x Tactical Space Marines, Legion
. Additional Wargear: Additional Chainswords/Combat Blades
. Tactical Sergeant, Legion: Bolter, Melta Bombs, Plasma Pistol, Power Dagger

Tactical Squad, Legion [170pts]: Bolters, 9x Tactical Space Marines, Legion
. Additional Wargear: Additional Chainswords/Combat Blades
. Tactical Sergeant, Legion: Bolter, Melta Bombs, Plasma Pistol, Power Dagger

Tactical Squad, Legion [170pts]: Bolters, 9x Tactical Space Marines, Legion
. Additional Wargear: Additional Chainswords/Combat Blades
. Tactical Sergeant, Legion: Bolter, Melta Bombs, Plasma Pistol, Power Dagger

• Fast Attack: +

Headhunter Kill Teams [335pts]: 10x Combi-bolter with Banestrike, 9x Headhunter
. Headhunter Prime: Artificer Armour, Plasma Pistol, Power Lance

Headhunter Kill Teams [335pts]: 10x Combi-bolter with Banestrike, 9x Headhunter
. Headhunter Prime: Artificer Armour, Plasma Pistol, Power Lance

• Allegiance +

Legion and Allegiance: Loyalist
. XX: Alpha Legion: Infiltrate

Rite of War: Headhunter Leviathal

• Use Playtest Rules +

Use Playtest Rules Errata 1.0 (From FAQ 1.1 Feb/2019): Playtest Rules Errata 1.0 On

• Warlord Traits +

Warlord Traits: 2. Master Tactician, 3. Master of Ambush, 4. Legendary Fighter, 5. Target Priority

• Dedicated Transport Restictions +

Dedicated Transports Restrictions: Dedicated transports are part of the parent unit

++ Total: [1,492pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

[earnest eagle]

What do you guys think about the saboteur

[round wagon]

no idea if its any good, but I love it? lol

[crisp idol]

hes a nasty back table threat that demands a response

tanks, heavy support will all hate him

stick a power dagger on him, boom dirt cheap and doing dirty work

dirty work done? nemesis bolter and join your headhunters for carnage

I'm not even sure a nemesis bolter is worth it

[earnest eagle]

What exactly are headhunters best used for

[left herald]

taking out sergeants and characters

[earnest eagle]

Got it

[twin finch]

And they seem to make decent/good suicide melta bombs. 4 Melts Combis plus a relentless Multi-melta will pretty reliably kill anything you point them at

@round wagon And yeah, I have several legion specific shields already to go and magnetize to my Saboteur! I was gonna go with a blank shield and just write 'Your Legion Icon Here' but it was way to hard for me to write it clearly on such a small surface

[crisp idol]

multi-melta is just gonna make them awesome

wonder when that kit will release with it

need the volkite culverins too 😐

[river stag]

Do the Death Guard have anything useful to Alpha Legion for Rewards of Treachery?

[near niche]

Off topic but what model do you use for a Saboteur?

[earnest eagle]

I did some conversation work on a Raven guard mor deytan

[carmine belfry]

hey all.. new to Horus Heresy, I got the box sext but what do i need to make Headhunter teams?? id like to make 2, somehow

[vernal socket]

you dont need to kill them all, just make em break and then sweep them

wow that was a necro post

[vernal socket]

so, you need the headhunter upgrade set from forgeworld.com however, that upgrade set isnt compatible with the new mk6 marines because GW are a little silly, so you'll need to buy 1 mk 4 kit from Games Workshop

[twin finch]

If you have a 3d printer Hellforged Miniatures on Patreon has a very complete range of STLs including like 100 specific Alpha Legion ones, Im using those for my Characters/Head Hunters

[jolly helm]

How are you going to do so when they are Stubborn on an objective ?

[vernal socket]

well first, they still may fail the morale check, but also, that's what tactical squads are meant to do, use your plasma cannons on them to reduce their numbers before you charge with the dreadnought.

[jolly helm]

That's a looooot of point and aggressivity for a single Tactical squad.

But you know what ? I guess you are right.

[twin finch]

I dunno, you wasting all that effort with a cannon claw dread on a pack of cheap tac marines is imo a win for the tac marine player. Instead of shooting at my more important units your blasting away at the chaf, have fun with that

[jolly helm]

Moreover, Dreads seems resilient but gosh are they easy to take down with plasma actually...

Plasma shower squads are the way to deal with that Dreads meta people fear.

[crisp idol]

pretty sure they sell them for a reasonable price as well on ebay

[jolly helm]

Helforged is insane.

[crisp idol]

@jolly helm just any sort of focused fire with AP2 will do it

they have less wounds than terminators, and a worse save than cataphractii

[jolly helm]

Yep, but Plasma is relatively cheap compared to other ap 2 for the amount of faire.

Fire*

[crisp idol]

true, rapid fire is deadly

[jolly helm]

Stat wise, 6 plasma dude is 4 wounds stats if my maff are correcc.

And it's even more on Iron Warriors... :D

[jolly helm]

On the other hand, they are T7

So...

[crisp idol]

yeah

[jolly helm]

That's why I like plasma. It's either you wound them AP2, or you don't.

[left herald]

Plasmas is slightly more efficient Vs dreads but then meltas not much worse and can ID termies

[jolly helm]

Melta is much worse for the fact it's 1 shot that bring almost nothing to the table against dreads.

For the same price you have 1/2 shots.

[left herald]

1 shot but higher S

maths wise there's not a huge difference

3.95 expected wounds from 10 melta vs 4.44 expected wounds from plasma

[jolly helm]

10

Meltas

10

4 wounds is the threshold you get from 6 plasma

Or 7.

[left herald]

20 shots. 13.3 hits. 6.6 wounds 4.4 make it through saves

for Melta 10 shots 6.6 hits 5.9 wound 3.9 through saves

[round wagon]

Do they have a site somewhere? I'm trying to see their AL stuff, but it's all locked on Patreon, no public pics...

[round wagon]

has anyone here made alpha legion variants of other legions special troops, instead of just painting them in AL colors? Maybe easy things like the Alpha legion cataphractii shoulders on siege tyrants?

[river stag]

Are they compatible with Mk 3?

[round wagon]

They should fit, they'll just have MK3 legs and arms and mk4 torsos/heads, which might look a little funny, but probably fine

[left herald]

I have firedrakes that I'm planning to convert but haven't actually done so yet

[round wagon]

nice, what's your plan for them?

Also debating of using the head hunter parts on MK6 and just not using the torsos...

[left herald]

Toning down the flame motifs and changing drake head into hydra heads mainly

[round wagon]

shouldn't be too hard

don't like the head, but here's someone's converted suzerain

[chrome frost]

Question: If you take Alpharius, is Dynat still worth running over a Cataphracti Praetor?

[jolly helm]

My plans for all the RoT units.

Same "loadout" but in AL style and colors

[twin finch]

Dont actually know... I found them on Reddit

[round wagon]

damn, i can't even find a way to see them, lol

[muted bobcat]

Armillus does not bring anything on the table if you bring Alpharius.

He’s a discount Alpharius if you only need to use his warlord trait for infantry

[chrome frost]

Thank you

[chrome frost]

how does Dynat compare to a Cataphractii Praetor in melee if at all?

[round wagon]

Assuming I can either get the FW weapons, or 3d print/convert some, what weapons do people like on Cataphractii? Obviously claws or fists if your'e sticking to plastic...

[muted bobcat]

Considering he only has the 2 weapon shenanigans, and lost the +1 on the damage roll for armor pens, hes not really that much better.

[round wagon]

I'm starting to eye AL as something that lets the opponent move up and fail to charge, only so you can rapid fire them in the face before charging in, haha. They seem to get the upper hand in engagements, kinda dictating the combat. I was thinking mostly claws, but maybe a pair of autocannons for some range? THamers might be fun instead of fists.

[muted bobcat]

Legion praetor with paragon blade is a better overall option, if you bring alpharius.
But dont let that stop you from using him. I bring them together in some games when i need legion high command in our narrative

[chrome frost]

Understood. Thanks again

[muted bobcat]

Yeah, ive felt alpha played more midrange before. Shooting as much as they can, before going in for a counter charge with the right units

[round wagon]

that seems to play to their strengths at least, especially headhunters

[muted bobcat]

Even more so now with the HH buffs. Get Leviathal RoW, load a few HH and pick off sgts after infiltrating

[round wagon]

the -2" kinda forces them to come to you

[muted bobcat]

Then you can charge with +1 initiative and rending power daggers

[round wagon]

yup

[muted bobcat]

Bring exodus and recon snipers to help with sgt picking (and get that 8” shroudbomb + legion trait bonus protection)

Heck, have exodus join one HH squad at sub 9”, and still be considered +8 when getting shot back

[round wagon]

I was even kinda considering Mor Deythan

[muted bobcat]

What else has shroud bombs?

I have my “ally” detachment of Ultras I want to send in for my Mobius list. Just trying to decide on what I can do for a Leviathal detachment for my Alpha’s.

[earnest eagle]

I'm in a similar situation except for a space wolves allied detachment

[round wagon]

Would it be smart to split the 10 cataphractii in the box into 3 command and 7 normal? That locks me into one heavy weapon in the normal squad, but that command is Line

[round wagon]

Also, what do we think about TSS with Rotorcannons? I'm thinking that anything that stalls out the enemy is worth considering... pinning checks, out of range or failed charges due to the legion trait... I'm sure there's other toys there to explore.

[hushed cliff]

Has anyone played with headhunters yet? Are they best in small units of 5 or larger units?

[muted bobcat]

I want then to work. Nothing like gatling gun go brrrt! But i cant see them doing much

[round wagon]

well, sergeant is LD8 now? So pinning check on 7's, is over 40% chance to pin if you squeeze a wound through

On average a squad of 10 will squeeze 3 wounds through power armor, so that's a pinning check. It takes 3.375 Rotor cannons to average one wound, heh.

[jolly helm]

Best in small. Because they aren't more resilient than tactical for twice the price and you Can only have 1 Melta no matter thé number.

So 5 with 1 Melta, 145pts. Nothing more

[twin finch]

Maybe a couple Combi-Meltas for Melta Suicide Squad

[jolly helm]

Surely

That's their work imo

Infiltrating, killing an apothecary/IC of some sort, charge up, cut throat, die.

[left herald]

More banestrike though...

and can do some work on the charge

[river stag]

Anything useful from Death Guard to take via Rewards of Treachery?

[round wagon]

The units that look most interesting to me are Fury Assault Squads, Angels Tears, and Suzerain... I didn't see much out of DG that seemed appealing, but I hardly know anything, lol

[oblique lotus]

The sons of horus units look good too

[left herald]

I'm liking the look of SW terminators

Frost weapons, Fear, Counter Attack, HoW2, all can challenge

[round wagon]

Is there a feasible way to run AL as a fast or assault force? They definitely seem to have mid-range firefight and counter assault down, just curious if there are more diverse ways they can be effective.

[river stag]

Now that I’ve learned that split fire isn’t a thing for Lernean Terminators, I’m confused as to why I’d want to bring a Conversion Beam Cannon. If they’re close enough to get hit with the other weapons, the cannon isn’t particularly strong. If they’re far enough for a strong cannon, I’m going to lose out on a bunch of other shooting because my other weapons won’t be in range.

[solemn dragon]

death shroud are super good with 3 W and battle hardend(1), but are 70 ppm with chem flamer and power scythe

[jolly helm]

AL is thé most flexible légion.

You did not saw my list but I got 2 Land raiders, 2x15 Tactics with apothecary, bunch of melee units and 0 infiltrate

You are an AL. Come on. Don't let anyone except how you are suppose to play

Especially not other AL players...

[solemn dragon]

One thing i realized yesterday in my first game with 2.0 out (it was ZM) is that you have to choose your battles and can't just charge what ever and expect to win. This is something you can do super well as AL because it is harder for you opponent to charge, shoot or react just stay away and pick the fights you want to fight and keep you distance if you can't win the fight

[jolly helm]

WS5 terminators with Hydran Excursor warlord are not going to lose a lot of battle :p

[left herald]

Hmm

Thoughts on rad ML despoilers?

Use HH/Exodus to take out AA sergeants in squads then drop rad missile template to basically delete the rest?

[crisp idol]

My thoughts are they are redundant; radphage is per model, not per squad, and that missile will outright kill the guy

It's useful to have a deadly AP2 weapon I suppose, but destroyers Vs terminators isn't a good matchup

Will make somebody think twice about artificer tanking as well

[left herald]

I mean to delete 3+ squads

[crisp idol]

Rad missiles aren't blast are they?

[left herald]

3" Ap3 Fleshbane blasts

[crisp idol]

I thought they were one shot

Oh they went to AP3

Wait don't they have radphage rule as well?

[left herald]

I thinkso

[crisp idol]

Oh man only s4

Oh wait fleshbane is a 2+ autowound

Yeah it should delete tacticals, sort of

You are still only firing one a turn, would whittle them down quick I guess with the rest of the squad

Also scatter is a bitch

But a big enough squad will likely be ok?

3" is only going to hit 3 models perhaps if he's watching his coherency

Which good heresy players do to mitigate blast weapons

I'd say it's fine, but limited

I think you'll struggle to kill more than 2 squads

[left herald]

fair points

my second thought is, how evil is infiltrating Alpharius+Plasma Support Squad +MoSignals

Assuming Alpharius' PE use, against a primarch/dreadnought the plasma squad is doing 11AP2 wounds on average, or against Terminators would be 11AP2 + 8Ap4

[twin finch]

Question, I was under the impression that most 30k players dont bring Primarchs because of the narrative issues associated with the Primarchs being at every little skirmish, do yall think thats going to change with 2.0?

[left herald]

No idea, but if I'm playing HH 3k+ point games I'm bringing a primarch every time

That's the centrepiece of the army

[lucid mist]

Hi in the rite of war "The Coils of the Hydra"
I can take up to 3 units from another legion. I have to take the same unit or I can chose 3 different units?

[muted bobcat]

My experience, in our area Superheavies got taken more than primarchs for the LoW slot. Just more relevant firepower in a larger area on the board than trying to run a primarch into cc. They are beat sticks, but easy enough to deal with by staying away or clogging down in 1.0 (some outliers like mortarion and his teleport shenanigans).

That said, I liked to bring Alpharius because of his buffs in 1.0 and bringing him down in a dreadclaw with a unit.

[muted bobcat]

I think thats Still up for debate. I dont see how you cant just by the wording of the rules right now.

But if you’re opponents are fine with it then go for it

[solemn dragon]

Thsi should be the change if you play Coils of the hydra

[left herald]

RaW it seems like its 3 of the same unit

RaI I hope it's 3 from the same legion

wishlist: consul upgrades count and you can mix and match legions ❤️

Can you play main detachment Coils of the Hydra, steal 3x units of another legion, then ally in a 3rd legion detachment?

[solemn dragon]

RaW yes

[chrome frost]

So, I noticed Headhunters have the Skirmish sub-type. But I can't find "Skirmish" in the main rulebook.

[muted bobcat]

Its 3” coherency instead of 2”

Should be in legionnes book if its not in crb

[solemn dragon]

and +1 shrouded

[round wagon]

Good to hear! I feel like all the recommendations are to stock up on HH, I was worried it was a one trick pony of an army.

[solemn dragon]

the AL LA is one of the most flexible rules, you can use it to out range you opponents shooting, counter charge his melee and prevent him from reacting to you actions

[cold isle]

As a future space wolves player, I thought I was going mad trying to look up what the skirmish subtype is supposed to be doing. I can’t find it in either the core rule book or the liber astartes

[crisp idol]

it's it +1 to cover saves

it should be in the core rulebook along with automata

ug its not

[cold isle]

It isn’t, the only subtypes mentioned there are line, antigravity, artillery, monstrous, heavy and light

[crisp idol]

must be the liber

page 95 in hte playtest

[cold isle]

Awesome, seen it. Thanks a lot

[chrome frost]

Thank you! Next question: since it's not in the main Rules, is it not valid?

[crisp idol]

what do you mean

its in the liber, of course its valid

its rules for stuff specifically in that book

[chrome frost]

Oh, it's in the Liber. I thought it wasn't. My bad. Ignore me

[crisp idol]

it should be in both libers

but mine is packed away for a game tonight, and I dont have the loyalist one

[round wagon]

Okay, so how many Headhunters? 2x5 with multi-meltas? 4x5? 2x10?

I'm probably going to start with a headhunter leviathal once I get those in

I'm really starting to sink my teeth into the AL rules I think, which is nice. Definitely liking the counter attack mentality, hold the enemy off at range, let them flop around failing charges, before charging in and finishing them off

[river stag]

How do charges work with the Alpha Legion trait? Does it just mean they can’t charge unless they’re 10” away or closer? Or is it effectively -2” to their charge?

[round wagon]

basically -2 to their charge roll

if you're 8" away, they'll need to roll 10"+ for the charge

Figure if they needed a 5+ to charge, you've reduced their chances from 83% to 58%. If they needed a 7+ to charge they've gone from 58% to 28% to succeed.

[river stag]

Oh wow. That seems really powerful compared to so many of the other legion traits that are not particularly impactful

[round wagon]

the extra 2" for shooting is a big deal too, especially for rapidfire and melta weapons... if you have shroud bombs you're at +8", heh

[river stag]

Hah

[round wagon]

not sure what has those, Mor Deythan and?

[river stag]

Shroud bombs?

Saboteur, Exodus…uh…I think that’s it, for us?

[round wagon]

I think so, Mor Deythan are the only other unit I can find

[river stag]

Huh. You know, I kind of thought more things in Alpha Legion would have it

At least Headhunters

[round wagon]

yeah, AL is surprisingly not that sneaky

I kinda think some HSS might be in order with the headhunter ROW

since vehicles are going to be reserved, dreadnoughts and landspeeder stock goes way up

[tepid path]

Can i use the headhunter upgrade on mk6?

[river stag]

Is it physically possible? Yes. But it’ll require some cutting

They’re meant for mk4

[tepid path]

If i ignore the torso and just do head shoulder wrist swaps?

[river stag]

Hm. Maybe? I haven’t tried or seen that. Wrist might require some work?

[chrome frost]

These are Mk6 and HH upgrades. Had to cut the torso off and had to cut the left hand off the gun. Ten of these took a bit of work

Oh, you also need to trim or cut off the backpack ball-and-socket

[muted bobcat]

Heck, take 2 exoduses, exodii? Not unique

(Please dont do this)

[oblique lotus]

I want make a great saboteur

[jolly helm]

I won't use the "Kit" of HeadHunters if I ever do MkVI headhunters

Too much money for no gain imo

Moreover minis are not mandatory to have the kit to be the unit ^^

[idle falcon]

I did all my stuff backwards so my cool stuff is in boring armour and what not. I just gave my headhunters wrist blades for their power daggers and used the mk6

Wrist-power bayonet! 👀

[jolly helm]

Wrist dagger is awesome Idea !

[idle falcon]

Thanks thanks

[rigid topaz]

Well, 1st game of 2nd edition was a disaster, apparently being 2" further away doesn't help when 30 Dawnbreakers and Sanguinius drop 1" away

[idle falcon]

Ouch sorry to hear that

[left herald]

lol

That's when you need to bust out the advanced reaction

[hushed cliff]

Oof. Well, to be fair, I don’t think many legions would survive that Death Star

Especially not alpha legion!

[left herald]

Anyone seen/got any good battle reports for HH2 with AL? Particularly with Alpharius

[river stag]

There really aren't that many battle reports out at all

The ones that are out seem to have lots of Iron Warriors

[tepid path]

Is it possible without using the torso?

Separately, does anyone know if autilon skorr can be bought at warhammer world?

[finite moat]

not currently

he isn't even in the book anymore, likely appearing in the pdfs

[river stag]

How are people equipping Lernean Terminators? Conversion Beam Cannon or all stock?

[round wagon]

Where is the hand from?

[round wagon]

What's the cape?

[finite moat]

I think the heavy weapons are interesting now you can use culverin/HF

anyone fielding more than 20 now Lerny has line?

[oblique lotus]

Forgeworld head hunter kill team upgrade kit

[jolly helm]

More than 20 is expensive as eck though. Baseline it's a 1000pts.

[finite moat]

yeah idk

I think 20 is the max I'd ever need