Thousand sons - 2.0 theorycrafting

[odd edge]

character
Magnus did everything wrong and the term "Vengeance for Prospero" is as fitting when you're attacking him as when you're destroying fenris

Also vengeance for Baleq uthizzar he was the only likeable captain other than Ahriman and im still not over what happened to him

[tough wigeon]

i havent read many of the HH books so need to catch up on alot

[odd edge]

long story short Magnus is an ass

[tough wigeon]

aha

wat about his rules tho?

[odd edge]

apparently he sucks this edition

which is kinda lame

[rotund helm]

You're not over UIthizarr? He was the first model i made! My army leader!

Fricking Killed off before the damn battle

[odd edge]

like honestly
during their duel on Prospero, Magnus did nearly beat Russ (he literally put his fist through the mans chest and punched out one of his hearts, Lemans swing that hit him in the eye was a random flail, he only won on technicality dont @ me) and honestly Magnus being so lame in the new edition is disappointing

[odd edge]

F for that

forever in our hearts

you got a pic of your model for him?

[clever sparrow]

Yeah Magnus sucks this edition

He casts one power per turn, can cast in reactions though I guess

[odd edge]

im sorry
one power per turn?

[clever sparrow]

Yeah

[odd edge]

wat

[clever sparrow]

Well. One cult Arcana and one power

[rotund helm]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CSFbIQ8tDlU/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

mounty_chris

Thousand sons Praetor, tactical squad, plasma support Squad and kill team. Partially repainted in new colours, so a bit rough, but good practice for the new heresy box.
I wish I could phot gloss without the glare ruining it.
Praetor is Uthizarr based off the original artwork. First Thousand Son model I made .

Instagram

[clever sparrow]

So technically two

[rotund helm]

Hey, he can Cast Two powers a turn.

And the arcana, but his unit could cast that anyway.

[tough wigeon]

surely he can cast more?

[rotund helm]

Three if he doesn't move ?

That's it though. One shooting attack and one Telepathic fugue

[clever sparrow]

M8, WS7, BS6, S6, T6, W6, I6, A6, LD10, 2+, 4++
My bad. He may cast a psychic weapon instead of shooting, or cast a psychic weapon as his assault

So yeah. Technically 2 psychic weapons and 1 minor arcana

[rotund helm]

None of the weapons are worth using

[tough wigeon]

all psykers can cast two per turn tho right?

[odd edge]

niiice, thats inspired by this isnt it?

[clever sparrow]

"When making a shooting attack of attacking during an assault, Magnus may choose to use any one psychic weapon available from any discipline regardless of which psychic powers he has used in a given turn. In addition to any other psychic power he has used, in each turn magnus may use any one of the minor arcana, and may use a different arcana each turn"

He automatically passes the test for the minor arcana

[rotund helm]

Don't ignore the first sentence, it's the important one.

The second sentence is basically unnecessary as that's how weapons work anyway

[tough wigeon]

considering 1 of them is useless for him you have 4 to pick

[rotund helm]

I'm not entirely convinced he's allowed to use a different one to his unit either

[clever sparrow]

So he's casting 1 normal power, 1 cult, potentially 1 for shooting and 1 for assault

[rotund helm]

But assume he can for now

[clever sparrow]

Most of the psychic weapons kinda suck, sadly, so I'd personally rather use his giant force sword

[rotund helm]

Yeah 100%. I /think/ the way it's worded you can trigger the fireball without actually using the terrible weapon it's attached to. Not that it's very good

[clever sparrow]

Good for spamming saves against someone, but yeah. S6 AP4 template means most everyone in a Legiones list is getting a save

[tough wigeon]

good luck against heavy too

[clever sparrow]

Other than that his basic pistol is S3, AP2, Force, Deflagrate, Assault 3- so basically S6, AP2

[rotund helm]

(Down from s5 in playtest.. grumble mumble...)

He has a few good shooting options. But mainly biomancy, or if you have something you can pin and aren't going to charge, the pinning spell.

[clever sparrow]

S5 force-able into S10 would be really nice. Means you can threaten vehicles from a distance if needed and pop a couple terminators with the AP2

[rotund helm]

I think I'd rather use the fireballs over the pistol tbh

Oh wait ap2 that is quite good

[tough wigeon]

honestly he should have firing protocols for psychic powers

[clever sparrow]

I think as it stands he's just too costly. A bunch of Primarchs got nerfed pretty hard, Sanguinius is having the same issue

[tough wigeon]

he is way too costly for what he does

even 100 points cheaper would still be meh

[rotund helm]

Yeah he does basic Primarch stuff fine, but he has No way of doing Better magic, and he's overcosted for No Reason

[clever sparrow]

He also sucks when it comes to fighting other primarchs because he has no access to Brutal (X) - same issue Sang has

[rotund helm]

Yeah Nah he can't fight primarchs.

He Loses to Lorgar. Lorgar!

[tough wigeon]

he is comparable in points to when he could in theory cast 5 times per turn

[clever sparrow]

520pts atm

[rotund helm]

I swear the early playtest magic must have been baller because everything with it it overcosted

[tough wigeon]

maybe magnus' weapon should have a special force rule where its also brutal when activated

[rotund helm]

Only the ICs got repriced sensibly

[clever sparrow]

Sanguinius' spear has instant death when he throws it...but not when he uses it in melee 😛

Welcome to the weird and wacky world of...whatever this is

Same world where Sekhmet are 300pts for 5 dudes and a discipline on the sgt

[tough wigeon]

gonna make a cool gotcc list

and hope that its fixed

aha

[nocturne cove]

Strength ×3

Just let magnus be able to slap titans

Literally he actually does SLAP titans

[odd edge]

rename current Magnus to "1% power Magnus"
give us another Magnus statline that literally kills anything that isnt another primarch, call it "Like ok scoob Ahriman, looks like I'm gonna have to unleash my full power" Magnus

[nocturne cove]

There should be credence to let you use an upscale magnus model the size of the 40k one to represent him when he's wrestling titans with his bare hands like he did in A Thousand sons

Because he actually does do that and is incredibly metal

[clever sparrow]

Just make Magnus cost as much as a Reaver Titan and thus make him a titan too

[tough wigeon]

lol

[nocturne cove]

Almost there...

[karmic bay]

Anyone have the big list of issues needing FAQ handy?

[rotund helm]

A list. Certainly not The list lol as stuff keeps coming and coming.

[karmic bay]

Yeah… Thanks

[dawn terrace]

What’s your paint scheme the candy red is perfect

[keen jackal]

Is that in progress? It's missing a question if it's intentional for the biomancy power to only give you bonus toughness until end of turn.

[tropic root]

Would also be good to get a clarification on bolt weapon upgrades and bayonets. Honestly the RAW on that is a mess and is effecting multiple legions. My gut feeling is that the throw away line of "these all count as 'bolt' weapons" was supposed to cover this, but its unclear.

[rotund helm]

@keen jackal nah I've sent

[lost estuary]

it is good to have clarity anyway

[keen jackal]

I'm sure someone has brought it up

[barren frost]

I'd love that because my Magnus model for 30k is the same as my 40k magnus... Just scaled to like 20% of his 40k size.

[tough wigeon]

painted nicely

but im a big fan of the fw one

[odd edge]

Painted very nicely

Bt I'm the same tbh, for some reason 3rd party Magnus models just never do it for me like the forge world one

Using the same model just scaled differently for 40k is very cool though

And I do think I prefer that to his 40k model

[barren frost]

Thanks guys. I love the FW one except for the magic swirlies. I don't like those on any model really. Mainly because I hate painting then.

That and I can print that magnus for a good price haha.

[rotund helm]

@barren frost I actually built a 40k size scenic base for my 30k Magnus. Which also mounted 2 other versions of Magnus I'd made over the years.. it was madness. Never actually played 40k with it tho ofc

[clever sparrow]

Gorgeous magnus

Only magnus I own is the lady one from heresy lab 😆
Even if she's the right size and base I somehow don't think many would want to play against it

[barren frost]

Well as long as that one did nothing wrong as well... I support your choice.

[odd edge]

tbh Magnus could literally shapeshift so of course he decided to see what being a woman was like at least once who's anyone else to stop you using alternative looks anyway 😅

[nocturne cove]

Life on Prospero

[tired comet]

I have mk2 bikers that fit the plastic GW bikes if you're interested

[wintry skiff]

why is everyone always armed to the teeth even in casual gatherings lol

[clever sparrow]

Basically what I thought, dude was a biomancer only bested by Big E himself
Though I do understand that in a more serious group who take the experience in a more rightly controlled manner seeing femagnus on the table may not happen

[umbral quartz]

Tell me more!

[umbral quartz]

I like that sculpt better than thr FW one; where's it from?

[clever sparrow]

Pretty bad pic but this lady

Shes the correct size to be used as magnus, providing you make her a little Cork base as I did

Otherwise great model, cheap too. Think I paid about £20 for her

[umbral quartz]

https://heresylab.com/rage-lords/hl1011/
Pretty nice!

[subtle fog]

Playing a 1k game today, doing a recon theme, 1k points on the nose, any thoughts?

1x Legion Vigilator w/Psyker Upgrade (Athanaen) (Telepathy)
5x Recon Marines w/Nemesis Rifles (Athanaen)
5x Recon Marines w/Nemesis Rifles (Athanaen)
3x Jetbikes w/MM (Corvidae)
3x Jetbikes w/MM (Corvidae)
1x Javelin w/MM +2 HKs
1x Sicaran Punisher w/bonus heavy bolter

against Iron Warriors but no idea what theyre bringing

[rotund helm]

Looks pretty damn good for 1k

Javelins don't have sergeants so can't take cult arcana iirc

[subtle fog]

its a bit gamey so if my opponent doesnt like it ill take it off but I recall based on the wording its allowed

[shrewd turret]

No corvidae on any of the Jetbikes?

[subtle fog]

sorry to take a regular rulebook power

no a cult

[rotund helm]

🤔

[subtle fog]

thats what I meant to do!

@shrewd turret

@rotund helm since they are cavalry subtype they get granted cult arcana which makes them a pysker, but since they are not sgts they dont get an arcana power. The big rulebook states that if a psyker doesnt have a power it can choose a core discipline

[rotund helm]

Cult arcana specifically says it doesn't grant disciplines though

[subtle fog]

right but it does grant the psyker sub type

and the big book says any psyker that does not have a power can take one

a core one*

[rotund helm]

You can't just ignore that Cult Arcana says it doesn't grant disciplines.

[clever sparrow]

More stuff that needs an FAQ lol

[subtle fog]

fair enough I see your point

the way I was reading it is that the cult arcana is granting psyker so pysker was giving the main book power not the arcana

plz fix our rules mr hoare

[subtle fog]

oh man this list doesnt work at all, missed that recon marines had support squad

woops

[dawn terrace]

Wait so jetbikes can’t take cult arcana

That’s not fair

No I swear they can

They have a sergeant

[narrow bramble]

they are cavalery and have a character

so they have an arcana

[dawn terrace]

Yh

So they can cast the sniper corvidae thing

[narrow bramble]

tbh on jetbike i'd take the extra move range

it's just so good

[dawn terrace]

Literally just bough 6 of them and nearly had a panic attack

[narrow bramble]

btw don't forget that the bikes ignore pinning

[dawn terrace]

I mean what’s 3 inches gonna do when they already have a movement of like 12 i think?

[narrow bramble]

so shooting them will allways result in you being able to attack bike

[narrow bramble]

oh boi, it's base of 16

[dawn terrace]

Oh mamma

[narrow bramble]

but the extra 3 inch on a melta is huge

[dawn terrace]

Can yo turbo boost

[narrow bramble]

if you run you can't shoot

[dawn terrace]

Oh yeah massive threat range

[narrow bramble]

and it only run at Initiative

[dawn terrace]

Can you buy off forge word all multi meltas

[narrow bramble]

4 if i remember correctly

no idea they are on my todo list for printing atm =p

[dawn terrace]

Because I bought the kits but do they have hat customisation option

I wonder

[narrow bramble]

3 bikes is 160 pts (with artificier)

so cheap

Btw the math on the apothecary on the jetbike squad

WPP = wound per points

i'd say they only become good after 5 bikes

[subtle fog]

jetbikes come with enough weapons to give them all everything

so the 3 pack comes with three of each weapon

[narrow bramble]

all that just to spam multi melta

cause they are op

=p

[subtle fog]

no more armored ceramite makes me so happy

[narrow bramble]

shit the math on the bike is on my other computer

for the shooting

but the average on a bike shooting is a pen on av14

[subtle fog]

this is where I landed with my 1k list

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MSlJBxtXOY9UO88nkhICkikp6EqQSNMOPtfUKBwS4-c/edit?usp=sharing

in the 1k point tab anyway

[narrow bramble]

so with 5 bikes (or 6 can't remember) you have a guaranteed vehicule explosion on average

[subtle fog]

I started making a database of everything so i can mess around at work, only thru HQs at this point though

[narrow bramble]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HBn25wo1UIfXvWCil49YaHBaH3K7V7_I/edit#gid=559744789

just use this one =p

[subtle fog]

o shit its done

[narrow bramble]

i really need to print this before my game next week

[dawn terrace]

Yh

[rotund helm]

@subtle fog I assumed you were doing recon company

[dawn terrace]

Don’t know where to get them on the cheap though

So expensive at FW

[rotund helm]

Oh wait no master of the Legion.

[subtle fog]

Yeah I fit a delegatus in though

Had to sacrifice the javelin but another due with telepathy ain’t bad

[odd edge]

is there much point to taking a praetor over a delegatus in a thousand sons army now

[narrow bramble]

well he slap in melee

and he have higher ld right?

[odd edge]

thats true ig

[narrow bramble]

yeah LD10 + command squad

definitely a reason

knowing that your command squad have line

[dawn terrace]

I’m thinking maybe we can pull of jetbikes better than scars can

Lots of psykers in squads

[narrow bramble]

yes

[dawn terrace]

A jetbikes command squad

And some sniper units to take objectives

This is good

Actually quite good

So we aren’t as bad as I originally thought

[narrow bramble]

jetbike CS sucks

they can't change their main weapon

so you are stuck with an heavy bolter

but they have more attacks and a 2+

so they can be good at a close combat command squad

wow ok and ws5

jetbike command squad is still 48 ppm for a unit with a heavy bolter

but for 5 pts you can get the Aforce axe

[nocturne cove]

Can the command squad actually take achean force weapons

[narrow bramble]

they are not character

so they can't even take them

🤡

[pastel crest]

😅

[odd edge]

command squads have the problem of not being able to take legion specific wargear in pretty much every legion i think

had it in 1.0 as well

iirc

[narrow bramble]

just spam thunder hammer if you are terminator CS

[odd edge]

just spam thunder hammer

thunder hammer is awesome

we need achean force hammer
s10 hammer

[narrow bramble]

if only outrider could take thunder hammer

[pastel crest]

I would appreciate if they add achean staff.

[narrow bramble]

i would appreciate if they fix the psychic powers

only 2 discipline are actually decent

the pyromancy one is total garbage

[odd edge]

so pyromancy has gone from being shit to being shit

[narrow bramble]

well not even being able to throw a god damn fireball

is infuriating

you are forced into the dumb "i'll create some fire there" thing

[odd edge]

smh thousand sons dont even have 3rd level spell slots

[narrow bramble]

in a way i hope they'll add more rule to faction

but i don't want it to become like v8-9 mess

with power creep at every release

[odd edge]

tbh the thousand sons would be mostly ok with just an FAQ that clears some stuff up and changes some of the pretty nonsensical stuff in their rules

they dont need any particular major changes imo
just a load of minor ones

[narrow bramble]

magnus need a full rework

or a 120 point drop minimum

[odd edge]

ok thats true

[narrow bramble]

and half of the cult need a full rework

like idk if they don't want to give us a better invul just give us a higher T for a turn

[tough wigeon]

it sucks that even tho magnus gets access to all cult buffs for free

he only has two viable options

pavoni and athenaen

[dawn terrace]

Yh Magnus Sucks

[tough wigeon]

they need

• faq clearup
• points drops or buff on sekhmet
• magnus rework
• ability to purchase discipline on command squad
• force weapons or achean force for ICs
• something to make TS actually better psykers

[dawn terrace]

Even Ahriman isn’t good

Ahriman needs a buff

Needs to be at least better at casting than typhus and curze

Speaking of curze

He is massively better than last edition img

Like he really is incredible

[ivory walrus]

Honestly giving Magnus firing protocols would at least make him interesting

Throwing off a bunch of powers every shooting phase would at least be fun

[tough wigeon]

yeah like even saying he can cast two shooty powers and use his gun would be something

[tough wigeon]

or lorgar

[rotund helm]

He can borrow Perturabos firing protocols, which he doesn't need

Ahriman knowing 5 shooting Phase powers is so annoying.

The way the disciplines are set up is so inconsistent

[narrow bramble]

The new Psy phase was a good idea but the execution is terrible and it just... Lack choice

Like everything in HH have a lot of options, can be tailor fit

Except the Psy phase. For almost every legion it's fine but for us it's just lame

[nocturne cove]

It feels like the tson rules were written and then the psyker phase was finalised

[narrow bramble]

this

[nocturne cove]

So the tson rules that so heavily relies on the inclusion of psyker powers sort of isn't that great because the core point of their mechanic is just not there

Or not on the scope of what the writers of the tson rules thought it would've been

Really the tson writer should've sat down and hammered out the cults into being their own 5 disciplines. Tsons would be disallowed from using standard core discipline powers apart from whatever smite is called now days.

Suddenly the tsons writer now has absolute full control over exactly what the tsons are capable of

[narrow bramble]

i wouldn't be surprised if a future campain book rework the spy power

[narrow bramble]

yep, and the day telepathy and biomancy will be nerfed (cause they are op) we wouldn't be even more nuked

atm one of the best legion for psyker is NL, their 5 hq in a slot is just infinitely better than anything we could achieve

[nocturne cove]

At the very least Magnus the red needs this treatment of being disallowed from casting core powers and instead having his own list of like... 8 powers or 9 powers that he can cast.

Suddenly again. The rules writer has full control over what they want magnus to actually be capable of

[narrow bramble]

i'm 90% sure we will have a primarch payable upgrade

to represent "corrupted" magnus

mid-late heresy

[nocturne cove]

If they wanted to be fluffy magnus needs three profiles

Magnus pre prospero burns.

Magnus corrupted after fury of Magnus.

And Shards of Magnus

[narrow bramble]

"Magnus the little kid that love daddy E"
"Magnus pissed of cause he can't do anything"
"Magnus that snap russ heart out"

oh

also your version =p

atm i'd say the version we have is the version 2

the one following nikea

also some legion just shouldn't have access to librarian

or at least librarian OR chaplain

[pastel crest]

Wat

[nocturne cove]

Really tsons need to be treated like mechanicum.

Mechanicum if I recall have their own set of abilities and powers called canticles or something and it's self contained to their army specifically allowing the writer full reign over what they want the army to be capable of.

Tsons needs that kind of structure. The core powers and disciplines are written as a template for all the legions who have at most like... access to only two, three or maybe four profiles with a psyker ability.

But tsons need to break from the standard template. It's too different to fit in without drastically changing the ruleset to find a balance that works.

[narrow bramble]

They can basically take 4 librarian on bike/jetbike

[pastel crest]

Ok... so basically on par with us...

[narrow bramble]

i feel kinda sad for the white scar

at least 2 legion is better with bikes/jbikes than them

[pastel crest]

Let me check what WS can do now...

I know the khan also sucks at melee

[scenic flint]

What does everyone like about the new sons rules? Seeing a lot of disappointment : /

[karmic bay]

I like the Osiron pattern dreadnaught

I like the idea behind the new psychic mechanics

[keen jackal]

I like the idea behind our weapons and wargear. Power swords that are in between normal weapons and force weapons, psychically attuned plasma weaponry that can damage tanks on good rolls, shred bolters are really nice for baseline troops.

Achean force is a really good way to show the folly of the thousand sons, they really relied heavily on their psychic might to be able to overpower their enemies, and when it was there, they crushed. When it wasn't, they didn't.

Now if you could freely exchange any power weapon for an achean force weapon, and give actual force to centurion/praetor power weapons, allow ICs to activate achean force on their own wargear, and not have our legion boltgun ammo cost points while also decreasing range, pick one or the other, then I think I'd be happier with the rules as they are.

There's still big issues with only our infantry sergeants really having legion traits and no one else, and honestly the removal of the psychic phase for the sake of simplicity has left us in the pile of vague complexity we're now in.

[ivory walrus]

My biggest issue with asphex is that it stops you putting bayonets on the guns which is silly. You also can't fury with asphex tac marines but given the upside of one of the IWs RoWs is that they can fury with their special bolters I think that's intended

[lost estuary]

Has anyone done the maths on Fury vs Shred?

[rotund helm]

uh, someone did.. it wasn't good. Fury is better. And you also lose out in the 19-24" and 10-12" range brackets due to range. (vs T4 3+)

[tough wigeon]

very much so

[rotund helm]

It terms of positives:
Adding psychic powers to all our ICs is excellent
Achean force on characters is cool.
Guard of the Crimson King RoW is Excellent (if requiring a lot of practice to get right)
Cult Arcana unlocks a lot of cool tricks
The models are beautiful.

[tough wigeon]

so achean force is only new thing thats good then aha

[dawn terrace]

No I like the new plasma

Against terminators and vehicle

Also instant death

[tough wigeon]

yeah tbf the new plasma is cool

sadly sekhmet cannot take them to my knowledge

but whatever

[dawn terrace]

Ewww

Sekhmet got the nerf bat hard this Ed

[ivory walrus]

Yeah Sehkmet are pretty weak for their points. Just run them as a terminator command squad

[ivory walrus]

Remember you have to stand still to fury though

[prime eagle]

How do you mean plasma od now good with TS? Do you give it +str soemhow

[rotund helm]

Yeah TS unique plasma is S6 boosted to 8 with a test. No gets hot, worse range, Rending 6 instead of breach 4

[nocturne cove]

Rending means it's ap2 vs infantry and vehicles if it pops off..which also being strength 8 most of the time is likely to kill people dead terminators especially.

Oh and it also doesn't gets hot because we have to psyker test it instead

[prime eagle]

So rending. But our plasma is s6, if we can psy boost it to 8, it van be potentionaly s11 against vehicles

If i get it right

[tough wigeon]

why? no cult lol

[lost estuary]

Huh, the Legion Vigilator works with the psyker Divinity Bolt.

not sure how useful that could be but a sniper rifle with guided fire is pretty neat

[rotund helm]

Rending doesn't give ap2 vs vehicles for some reason iirc

[lost estuary]

I mean it's more of a anti infantry weapon

Rending does make it easier to wound things

and shellshock helps

I just don't know if it's good enough to spend a HQ slot for

[rotund helm]

You have to use One or the other, it doesn't really stack at all

Though vigilator with athanean is Very good

And relentless so nothing stopping it doing normal stuff like biomancy buffing

[lost estuary]

This is what I'm thinking, though I do have the playtest rules so I could be wrong
Master Sniper: When making Shooting Attacks with any weapon that has the Sniper
special rule, a model with this special rule adds the Rending (2+) and Shell Shock (2)
special rules to the attack. If the weapon used already has the Rending (X) and Shell
Shock (X) special rules, they do not stack with those provided by this special rule: use
the highest of the two variants for the attack.

[rotund helm]

Oh I see

[rotund helm]

Tbh you are already ap 2. I think it went down to shell shock 1

[lost estuary]

Rend auto wounds too I believe

so you don't need to rely on S6 which is nice

[rotund helm]

True, will put out some hurt. But I think I'd stick with the sniper rifle and use a different discipline

[lost estuary]

Fair, I do think with all this investment it's still kinda meh unless it had instant death or something

[dawn terrace]

18” is awful as well

I would like to see for once a long ranged power

Like make it 36” remove ap 2 and give it ap3 breaching 4+

That would be fluffier and more useful

[nocturne cove]

So basically the white scars power

[dawn terrace]

I don’t know anything about the scars powers but they have no business having something like that

[dawn terrace]

That is stupid good

Wtf don’t we have that

[nocturne cove]

Oh and the caster of runes with shrouding

[dawn terrace]

We should have that

Like how do the most powerful psykers in the game not have long range large blast psychic powers

That’s dumb

But the powers are pretty cool and fluffy for the legions they are on

So I won’t begrudge them that

[nocturne cove]

I think these powers are tied to their specific consuls

[rotund helm]

Yeah, but they are so Good

I thought the scars one wasn't great cos it was heavy, but yeah they are relentless

[narrow bramble]

wow fleet 4 with jump pack

+6 charge range

[narrow bramble]

shrouded 3+ dreadnought

what

[pastel crest]

😅

[clever sparrow]

Welcome to the revelation our cult powers are merely 'eh ok'lol

[narrow bramble]

no, they are terrible

they are so weak the fact they need a psychic test is... surprising

i guess HH1.0 traumatized them a bit too much

[clever sparrow]

The fact that they cause perils is what baffles me

No other legion has a trait that can hurt themselves, iirc

[narrow bramble]

well

it's fluffy

but it's supposed to be good power

with a drawback

[clever sparrow]

It is but...for the bonus they give? Yeah

[narrow bramble]

not just trash power with heavy drawback

the version we have know just look like the version you get without taking the risk

[clever sparrow]

The ability to potentially lose ⅓ of a tactical squad just for a minor boon is, not fun

Well nearly ⅓ anyway

[narrow bramble]

god damn mk6 are just so fast and easy to paint

and i can only paint 5 atm cause i'm out of airbrush red paint 😢

[odd edge]

I feel sorry for raptora
the other powers are pretty crap but at least the effect they have is generally a buffed version of the 1e version, or different but still better if you get them off
the raptora one is the same
except it can only be cast at a stupidly specific moment
and cant even get you to 3++ any more

[narrow bramble]

P1 version was the same as before (but with the cast)

almost every power have been nerfed during playtest

except the +3 move that was meh

[clever sparrow]

Other than tartaros I don't think raptora is too handy either

[narrow bramble]

and is now the best one

[clever sparrow]

Does it do anything for a comtemptor osiron?

[pastel crest]

I wouldn’t count on that...

[narrow bramble]

+3 move on dread is bae

[clever sparrow]

Meant the raptora one

[keen jackal]

I still think raptora is decent on 20 man breacher bricks with asphyx bolters. You need to get close anyways, and you aren't charging after rapid fire anyways. Plus the native 5++ means that perils are mitigated somewhat, great vectors for other real psykers.

[shrewd turret]

If I was to run a TS levi, what would be the best loadout? (without a droppod)

double grav? grav +claw/drill?

[pastel crest]

Melta and claw.

Best best

[narrow bramble]

mine is with double assault cannon

but the next one will be melta + claw

[barren frost]

Is there any concept art out there for the aether weapons?

[subtle fog]

There is an official one on the automata I think

[barren frost]

Ah!!

Ok, so like that crystally 'core'

Ok. Cool.

[rotund helm]

Other than that though no I don't think they've ever been anything but fancy plasma

[narrow bramble]

i just paint my plasma green

=p

[nocturne cove]

Is there any situation where asphyx is actually good?

Given fury seems better

[dawn terrace]

Essentially no then😂

[rotund helm]

Yeah if you are moving so wouldn't be using FoL

Or on other units without FoL

[nocturne cove]

It just seems like a huge drawback that asphyx only really pops off at 9 inch range

At 9 inch range you're either charging or going to get charged

[rotund helm]

I'm feeling it on veterans

[shrewd turret]

How have people been ruling the Prosperine Arcana (is it a pregame thing or does the select the same upgrade also apply during battle?) We dont have an FAQ yet right?

[clever sparrow]

I assumed that you pick it during list building

[rotund helm]

Looks very cool. Raptora Jetbike command is a cool idea. Not sure if divination on the Praetor will really give you anything, whereas biomancy or telepathy would bring a lot.

[lost estuary]

I was also tempted with bikes but I stuck with jump packs instead

[shrewd turret]

Also considered biomancy, could be interesting. I guess it gets the Jetbikes back to a possible t5

[rotund helm]

Huh. Thaumaturgy doesn't say you take perils if you fail the test. That's, slightly better than I thought

An unscrupulous person could build a multi character self healing deathstar.
But most of the powers don't work in combat so it wouldn't be super useful.

[nocturne cove]

Ahriman gets thaumaturgy default as well

Which is hilarious because the space wolves special caster doesn't and can't take it.

So ahriman is better at fighting demons

[nocturne cove]

I mean it's cool because the lore text for Thaumaturgy suits tsons pretty well...

I think once demons are started to be added tsons will essentially fill a similar role grey knights do in 40k

Between all our achean force and force weapons, Æther fire guns and this kinda stuff

[scarlet ether]

or already if you run against Word Bearer or Sons of Horus

[ivory walrus]

Am I missing something? Succour is such an awful power, it's going to be very rare that you're going to have more than one model wounded in a unit and it's a 5+ to restore a single wound

[rotund helm]

Yeah it's terrible. There's a potential use case for making a multi character unit and using the wierd wound mechanics to spread wounds around then heal them

[clever sparrow]

Yeah, on average it's 3 wounds back on a squad of 10. Basically only useful on terminators and khenetai

[rotund helm]

Even then only with a bunch of characters too I'd say.
I mean if you Have Ahriman you Might use it as he doesn't have much else.

[ivory walrus]

But it's not, you roll once for each wounded model and on a 5+ that model gets a wound back. Given that once a model is wounded you have to allocate wounds to it until it dies (unless it's a character or is out of LoS/range) it's very rare you'll have more than one wounded model in a unit

[ivory walrus]

Really hoping that gets FAQ'ed to stop you applying wounds to other characters in the unit because it's really uninteractive

I could see it having a use if it was roll a d6 for each lost wound and regain on a 5+. Then it would be fantastic for dreads, MCs and automata

[clever sparrow]

Oh right, yeah, fuck. I forgot that

In that case, power is literally near worthless

[nocturne cove]

Is it not closest model is wounded first anymore?

In terms of shooting

[ivory walrus]

No, controlling player selects which model

[clever sparrow]

Still baffled by how useless that thaumaturgy discipline is

[nocturne cove]

I'm baffled how most disciplines apart from the Hallucinations one seems relatively rubbish

There is equipment people can pay for that do stuff better than psyker powers that theoretically are paid for by the cost of the character to cast them

[clever sparrow]

Yeah. Feels like in their desire to make psychic stuff less prominent they just took the whole mechanic out back and shot it

[nocturne cove]

Maybe if they made it so you had to pay points to buy certain spells people would respect that they are fair and balanced more and writers would feel less bad about making them too powerful because theoretically they are a piece of wargear you paid for

[clever sparrow]

I'd be happy with that tbh

Let's powers being the horrifying death they are in fluff but balancing them through adequate pts costs

[nocturne cove]

Like sorta bad ehh spells would be cheap whilst apocalyptic end times level spell casting would come at a price

[clever sparrow]

Would be nice. Also let you properly specialise psykers to do one thing. Want to mulch chaff? Buy a bunch of blast spells. Want to punch tanks? Buy some lance type powers

[nocturne cove]

Then unique characters could have as part of their wargear like... a Tome of Biomancy iron arm or something for example and that would be factored into the cost of the character

[clever sparrow]

More than anything else, just more personal powers for named dudes

Let Ahrimann and Magnus being expensive but absolutely hellish

[nocturne cove]

The only trouble with my idea is that you can't have an expensive spell have an RNG mechanic. Not without making the pay off really REALLY good

Like if people can buy paragon blades for their guys you expect them to just work. There's no "roll a one and you might die" mechanic involved or whatever

So any sort of wargear spell you can buy either just needs to just roll to activate with no downside or has to have an RNG mechanic but rewards your risk with a much higher payoff

[clever sparrow]

Yeah. That was the issue with the arcana, too small a pay off to potentially lose ⅓ of your squad

[karmic bay]

Why do the powers not work in combat?

[rotund helm]

Well, its instead of shooting

[narrow bramble]

damn my first v2 game will be a mirror match

😆

[dawn terrace]

Magnus is already expensive man, how expensive do you want to make him lol

[odd edge]

tbh out of all the primarchs I think Magnus, with rules that do him justice, definitely has the most business being incredibly expensive
him, chaos horus, and eventually the relevant daemon primarchs should all be expensive if their rules are done properly

[nocturne cove]

Do any of you have to resist the urge of creating another "librarian/sorcerer" style character model every time a new praetor comes along.

Like I've got enough I need other kinds of consuls

[odd edge]

I do have to resist that urge but the annoyingly small number that displays when I open my bank account helps

[rotund helm]

lol, well i've bought the exalted sorceror box, so there is going to be issues on that front. But tbh all the consuls can be sorcerorish

[odd edge]

yh tbh a fair amount of them can (and should, really) have some sort of sorcerous vibe or accessory
My mortificator has a stave made from the exalted sorcerer kit and 40k ahrimans black staff

[tough wigeon]

sammeee

honestly i hope one day to create a model for each type of consul

for fun ofc

[oak turret]

I wanted to build a Moritat with dual aetherfire pistols and a jump pack, until I realised he couldn't activate Achaean Force if he was by himself.

[dawn terrace]

Wdym?

@oak turret he is a psyker?

[oak turret]

He's an independent character. The psychic test for Achaean Force uses the highest leadership in the unit that does not come from an independent character.

[dawn terrace]

Well since he is the only man in the unit then you can only use his leadership

[oak turret]

Not according to the rules. I will probably agree with friends to play it that way, but it's not RAW.

[pastel crest]

Yeah, you need to attach him to a destroyer squad

[rotund helm]

Need some hardcore mathematics to work out what the Moritat + destroyers can reliably kill. Wondering if Aetherplasma and some disintegrators can pile on enough hurt.

[lost estuary]

I feel like using disintegrators as a sniper rifle with Corvidae is viable

[pastel crest]

Depends on what you want your moritat to shoot

[rotund helm]

Yeah. Like, I Don't Think they will be that good against contemptors.
Vehicles? Probably OK except the heaviest ones.
Terminators.. probably best best, but relying on failed saves. Agh

[lost estuary]

Yeah, thats the problem I've ran into

like what do we use the Aether Plasma on?

Meltas are just better and with our deepstrike ability we can get real close to our targets

[rotund helm]

Yup.

[tough wigeon]

cool idea tho

[tough wigeon]

well its more in situations where its better than taking plasma, where you cant take melta

i think in squad of termies replacing plasma blaster with one is decent

[oak turret]

How much do you want to rely on deep strike though? Seems like a big risk of your opponent getting to place both the initial drop (if it scatters onto terrain, other units etc) and then getting a disordered drop so they place all the rest too - 50% chance if they bring a vox disruptor.

Could just lose the game on the spot, pretty much.

[tough wigeon]

ds is broken asf this edition

its super powerful

but easily countered

seems like a huge gamble

[oak turret]

Right? It would be so cool.

Yeah, that's what I mean. It's incredible when it comes off, but that just encourages people to bring a Master of Signals who can hard-counter it all on his own.

[lost estuary]

Though at least with master of signals everyone shares the pain

[tough wigeon]

although if you dont plan on using ds its no pain at all

[oak turret]

I guess you could also bring a bunch of snipers and just take him out before the DS arrives.

[tough wigeon]

which tbh like half of builds dont use at all

[oak turret]

For us, even Corvidae units could do it with the right weapons, I guess.

[tough wigeon]

do units count as moved when they ds in?

i forget

basically is it possible to ds a heavy squad armed with multi meltas right by enemy tank?

[oak turret]

A bit unclear? Units arriving as part of a deep strike assault may not Move or Run, but may Shoot and Assault as normal.

[rotund helm]

OK I read it again and a Disordered deep strike is pretty awful.

It doesn't place any restriction on where your opponents can place your units. Technically they could daisy chain them out into truly terrible positions, ugh

Sigh. Yeah I'm leaning back into 1-2 units DS max.

[pastel crest]

You can always hide your mos in a sightless corner

[rotund helm]

Also not clear if MOS works embarked..

[scarlet ether]

the problem tho witg just 1-2 unit the enemy with enough scanners will just shoot them down as the reaction has no restriction

[rotund helm]

... its still one attack per unit right? Oh crap or is it..

[scarlet ether]

an unit can just react ones but each unit who is allow to can - chances are still hight to lose the first squad who comes in from DS

[pastel crest]

Free unlimited shooting from scanner just feel wrong...

[rotund helm]

It's frustrating because the reaction rules are quite explicit about the 3 reactions per phase limit . The augury scanner is just like nah lol go nuts

I think if there is good terrain you should be able to limit it. If its an open board though good luck.

Idk how many augury scanner people will take. But even a few is gonna be rough

[oak turret]

It's such a typical GW move to implement a reasonable limit on a mechanic for good reasons, and then immediately give people a way to circumvent that limit entirely.

[rotund helm]

Contemptors , Deredeos and Sicaran Arcus with helical targeting array all ignore it too

[nocturne cove]

Ranged ID vs demons really when activated force

[odd edge]

What are we thinking about legion outriders for the thousand sons, I've got a squad somewhere I need to build

[lost estuary]

You still have a limit of 1 reactions per phase and 3 max reactions per phase afaik

[odd edge]

the augury scanner specifically allows you to make more than 3 reactions per phase

unless that changed between p3 and the final rules

[scarlet ether]

no it didn’t - stayed the same

[odd edge]

hooray

[scarlet ether]

would post a pic but have a german rulebook ^^

[odd edge]

post it anyway I wanna see how much my knowledge of german has degraded

tbh the augury scanner giving you the ability to just intercept with everything that has one is kinda whack

[scarlet ether]

as it comes with ignore night fighting it’s worth so much to take it

[lost estuary]

Huh interesting

And multiple units can intercept the 1 DS unit?

[scarlet ether]

yes

[lost estuary]

So wait, there is no limit to how many times you can activate Interceptor on one unit?

[scarlet ether]

you do it one unit per time so if one unit manages to destroy the DS unit the rest can then react to the second unit out of DS

[odd edge]

ignore night fighting, fucks over infiltrate and deep strike
so always take loads against night lords, raven guard, and blood angels, take them on any anti-heavy infantry you have against imperial fists
just dont leave home without a fair few in your army basically

is intercepting done at full bs or snap shots

[rotund helm]

Full Bs

[odd edge]

fun

[rotund helm]

It's Savage, and then can shoot back in shooting Phase and overwatch in combat phase .

[odd edge]

https://tenor.com/view/fat-guy-shooting-gun-gun-shot-gif-15114243

[rotund helm]

TS at least can have a crack at shutting down key units with magic powers

[scarlet ether]

full bs but vehicle can only shoot defensive weapon

[odd edge]

PoV you're blood angels playing day of revelation

[scarlet ether]

also it has no range limit - as long you can see the unit you can shoot from across the board

atleast it doesn’ trigger a leadership test xD

[lost estuary]

Hmm, this makes Aircraft alot more vunerable

[rotund helm]

The language of that is wierd. Idk if its intended to ignore pinning or not

[scarlet ether]

aircraft doesn’t trigger reaction

[rotund helm]

Like in some sections is Morale test, in other Leadership test

[lost estuary]

If it arrives from reserves

[scarlet ether]

ah then good luck

[rotund helm]

Aircraft will have a lot to dodge

Also triggers combat air patrol

[lost estuary]

Helical Targeting Array

also whats combat air patrol

[scarlet ether]

had a re read in german it says moral test from lost models

[rotund helm]

A rule xiphons get. Maybe some others

[odd edge]

what it do

cus I wanna take a xiphon

[lost estuary]

Hmm, idk if it's worth keeping a unit in combat air patrol

[scarlet ether]

sounds like only flyers can do it

[lost estuary]

It's under Talons of the Legion

It also still gets shot as it's moving from reserves

Deredeo looks better everyday

[scarlet ether]

losing your plane on your own turn - feels bad man

[rotund helm]

I mean that happened in 1.0 but yeah it's pretty savage on 2.0

I'm not sure you can even Evade because it isn't your opponents turn?

[lost estuary]

Looks like it'll be back to rhinos for transportation for me

[rotund helm]

Lol noooo deathtrap

[scarlet ether]

feels like a movie where you get false hope by reinforcement arriving just to see them getting shot down

[rotund helm]

Cinematic scene where drop pods slam home then immediately get shot to pieces as they stumble out.

[odd edge]

the enemy with his xiphon in a combat air patrol watching be bring 3 stormbirds full of terminators on from reserves

[lost estuary]

You know you can argue drop pods are now more useful

keeping the delicate marines safe

[odd edge]

cant assault out of them though :/

[rotund helm]

I don't see how they keep them safe at all

[scarlet ether]

i find that so stupid tho

[odd edge]

and you can still interceptor the units that get out of the pods

[rotund helm]

I've even seen a report where the drop pod exploded killing a bunch of marines

[odd edge]

so it doesnt really keep them much safer than normal deep strike

[lost estuary]

wait can you?

[rotund helm]

Yeah interceptor is after disembark

[odd edge]

yup

[lost estuary]

lol rip

[odd edge]

if it helps the thousand sons werent big fans of drop pod assaults anyway

[scarlet ether]

Istvan all over again

[rotund helm]

I mean it's All T1 so I guess you have target saturation going for you, but also no opportunity to take out enemy units

[scarlet ether]

what you can’t even shoot?

[rotund helm]

Not until after interceptor.

[odd edge]

as a tyranid player let me tell you
target saturation is great
Unless the enemy isnt playing a melee army
then go fuck yourself and die

[scarlet ether]

you can’t even use a pawn unit that gets shot first because the enemy does it after you deploy everything - damn

[rotund helm]

Yeah. Was seeing if Area Denial Drops could be used to break it up but don't think so

[lost estuary]

Huh so how are we supposed to get melee unit into range without footslogging them or using a spartan/land raider

If you destroy a rhino they still can't assault in their turn without assault transport, they must wait for the next turn

Feels like to me it's become a shooting game

[rotund helm]

Multiple rounds of shooting does make it seem that way. Stuff has generally got faster though. Idk

[ivory walrus]

This is a lesson that was learned in 1st ed. FAQ took the range limit off augury scanners and the next one put it back on because it was too powerful 😑

[oak turret]

I guess the point is so that every shooting unit gets a chance to shoot at least once before a melee unit can take it off the board. I suppose the alternative is not allowing assaults out of deep strike (like it was back in 7th), and I always found that ruined the immersion. This way if your deep strike goes well it can be devastating, and the 'risk' for that reward is that there are a number of ways it can go devastatingly wrong, including getting shot by a bunch of scanner-toting bastards.

I'm not saying I like it, and I want to get at least a few games using deep strike before I form a solid opinion, but I can understand the caution of allowing deep strike assaults without heavy counter-play.

[odd edge]

tbh I think makign some of the shooting reactions deny/hinder normal shooting more would help

[feral fox]

Had a second game yesterday, 2000 pts Shatter Strike vs Imperial Fists. Called mid turn 5 with TSons in total control (10 Fists left on the table).

Me: GotCK, Cataphractii Praetor (Pyrae, Bio), Tartaros Champion (Pavoni, Bio), Sekhmet (Pavoni, Tele), Tartaros, Osiron with Kheres (Tele), Khenetai, Apothecary (Pavoni), 2x Tactical (Pavoni), Recons w/ Nemesis (Athanean), Sicaran Venator.

Them: Stone Gauntlet, Praetor, Castellan, 10 Templars, Land Raider, 2x 15 Phalanx Wardens w/ Apothecary, 2x 5 Assault cannons

1. Overwatching with Telepathic Hallucinations is hilarious.
2. I'd swap out Bio for another Telepathy: Telepathic Fugue is invaluable.
3. AC overwatch predictably horrid - lost 3 Tartaros to Intercept. V relieved he had no augury scanners.
4. Phalanx in Stone Gauntlet are horrid tarpits. Praetor and Sekhmet were killing 2-3 per turn.
5. Again found myself not moving/not shooting in order to avoid triggering reactions, esp if I was lining up a future charge.
6. Lost 5 Tartaros, 1 Tac, 3 Recon, 9 Khenetai and the Osiron (who blew up and killed their Praetor). However, of those 18 infantry models, 9 were lost to Perils... Opponent said it feels like fighting Orks - can't say he was wrong...

[rotund helm]

Someone has twigged that Combat Air Patrol doesn't allow skyfire against the opposing flyer, .. Because Flyers Choosing skyfire technically only works in the Shooting phase.
Not sure about that one tbh

[odd edge]

feels like yet another oversight to be included in an faq

[feral fox]

Or not. Not liking a rule doesn't mean it's an oversight.

[odd edge]

ok but not giving fliers skyfire in the flier killing fliers reaction is just kinda dumb

[rotund helm]

Yeah though it is pretty powerful without it

[odd edge]

like the point of the rule is that they're on patrol for enemy fliers so when one comes in they intercept it and try to take it down
so them not having skyfire doesnt make much sense

[rotund helm]

I can't imagine it's deliberate

[feral fox]

It doesn't make much sense that Night Lords cause Fear in Astartes, but they do and it's not an oversight.

[rotund helm]

Also if you both have xiphons in CAP they never come on

Moves by flyers don't trigger reactions.. OK but is that the same as arriving from reserve 🤔

[tropic root]

Its rather depressing knowing that these legion options are all available to other centurions and they couldn’t even give us the diet coke force weapon. grumpy noises…

[ivory walrus]

Would've been too powerful /s

It's probably because at some point they were able to buy full on force weapons like in 1st but that option was removed without updating the Achean weapons

[tropic root]

Hoping it was an oversight…but im not holding my breath.

[ivory walrus]

It likely is an oversight, but GW doesn't always correct oversights

[pastel crest]

Wut

[pastel crest]

How are Sekhmet and khenetai doing?

[feral fox]

Sekhmet still feel expensive, but Telepathic Fugue is a path to victory and Cataphractii are v strong this edition. With Praetor and Magister of Prospero they're doing decent work. Khenetai need both their powers to go off to make a dent. I deep struck them and got away with it, but they're a bit squishy even with 2W.

[pastel crest]

Both powers? Mindsong and ?

[oak turret]

Telepathy seems so much stronger than the other Disciplines. Especially in a world where Reactions are the new big thing and a huge balancing factor, just turning them off is amazing.

[feral fox]

Achean force

[pastel crest]

Oh yes

[feral fox]

Pinning a charging IF Praetor and Templar Brethren in Overwatch was delicious. Baiting charges with Telepaths will be powerful.

[rotund helm]

Probably asked many times , but what are people's thoughts on 10 man Sekhmet load outs?

Loath to spent too many points on an already pricy unit. Got the gun arms magnetised, so potentially combiweapons. Two chainfists and 3 force axes locked in. Hoping to keep the other 5 melee options pretty flexible though

[shrewd turret]

I liked the swords when you'd get +3 I, now I think you want ap 2 on cataphractii

How does this look as a start of a list? And what would you add?

[feral fox]

For a 10 man, I'd have at least 2 models in there striking at Initiative just to try and whittle down the incoming damage your unwieldy terminators will take; whether swords or mauls is personal preference. You can also remove the sword wielders first meaning you minimise any reduction in damage output (assuming I4 attacks incoming).

I think combiweapons are a bit of a trap now with how potent Return Fire can be. 10 pts/model just to get shot back. There's not much you shouldn't be able to kill on the charge and Fugue lets you stop Reactions for only 1 phase - you want to save it for Overwatch.

[feral fox]

Not being able to swap out the Heavy Bolters on the Praetor and Command squad is a bit of a limitation. The Command Squad also can't have a Minor Arcana because there's no Character in it.

You've got a long ranged AT weapon on the Osiron Magus but a power to make it move faster and a short-ranged fist upgrade.

What's the plan for the Praetor's powers?

You've got some aggressive short ranged AT, but how are you going to kill infantry? You've got 6 heavy bolters and then you're down to actual boltguns to do your killing.

[rotund helm]

On combi weapons.. the 5 pt versions or the volkite are actually more appetising. Kinda agree on return fire , though cataphractii are tanks designed for taking return fire (especially if we can get biomancy up). The other consideration is our own return fire /overwatch when counter attacked.
Then again what might play out as more important is being able to pop Spartans to get at the juicy insides, which combimeltas can do.
Ofc in a real list id put them in then cut them as soon as I ran out of points

I wonder what for the sergeant? I mean tbh just biomancy first sounds better than anything else.

[pastel crest]

Can we return fire with telepathy?

[feral fox]

Yes. You can use Psychic Weapons in reactions.

[pastel crest]

Nice...

[rotund helm]

Very nice indeed tbh

[feral fox]

From the game I mentioned above:

[keen jackal]

Your space nerds are looking mighty crisp, friend

[odd edge]

damn yall are so good at painting thousand sons

[scarlet ether]

this one is mine ^^ currently working on mine WB

[odd edge]

lovely model

im still torn between TS and WB rn

[flint python]

Of the Achaen weapons, which you guys prefer? Axes at AP2, Strength +3 activated

Sounds great

[rotund helm]

Yeah. Add biomancy and you hit S8. We'll it's a cheaper less reliable power fist.

Conversion option overload

[dawn terrace]

Where did you get the staffs from?

[rotund helm]

Exalted Sorcerors box. Wouldn't it be nice if force staff was an options for everyone lol

Could do a gnarly estorist.

[clever sparrow]

Wish we had force staves as an option

[scarlet ether]

it’s so weird that force stave is not a thing. I will handle them as maces so far - you guys think this is ok?

[odd edge]

yeah

if anyone asks its just a long mace

[clever sparrow]

Long mace yeh

The mace in general seems pretty nice. S+2 baseline, becomes S+4 with Achean active for S8 total

Only AP3 sucks, but hey. You can instant death power armoured lads

[odd edge]

yh its useful against vets at least

and khenetai
and whatever other elites have power armour these days

[tough wigeon]

we need some good guides in the chat

[clever sparrow]

still whack that khenetai aren't in artificer

like the chosen guard of the cults

[scarlet ether]

So many whack stuff in TS rules you don’t even know where to start or where to end

[odd edge]

yh it's weird as fuck tbh
especially since the palatine blades all get it and they serve pretty much the exact same purpose

I guess you only get artificer armour if you're a full resin kit 😂 😭

[clever sparrow]

you only get well-written rules if magnus isn't your dad :p

[odd edge]

thats what he gets for doing so many things wrong

:(

[shrewd turret]

Yeah HB on the command squad is a bummer. Osiron I'm honestly unsure what ranged weapon he wants. Remaining points into seekers or vets? Maybe a xyphon?

[rotund helm]

Apothecary for my khenetai

[dawn terrace]

That’s sick man

[narrow bramble]

almost finished my test model for my tactical squads (and 4 others)

[flat ferry]

Hello Fellow Thousand Sons

How does the Osiron Dread hold up in the new edition

[lost estuary]

Not the worse, it's a bit overpriced and it's melee weapon is just worse then the fist

But all dreadnoughts received a buff this edition

[rotund helm]

Yeah it looks like a solid platform to mount telepathy on. Ngl for 50 pts most other Disciplines don't really work for it and they lock out shooting (unless you run a pure melee build I guess)

[ivory walrus]

Remember that because it's a dread it can fire everything. So it can fire aetheric lightning, hallucinations, combi bolter and its ranged arm all together

[rotund helm]

Remembering Lightning is a good shout

There may be a limit to how many psychic tests I'd be willing to risk lol

[lost estuary]

But no split fire?

[ivory walrus]

Nope no split fire

[narrow bramble]

Tbh not having splitfire is sooo refreshing

[ivory walrus]

May as well throw it out, you don't have to use force. Even at str 3 there's a few things it can hurt

[lost estuary]

So with the Achaean Configuration, if I take them as elites I can still bring them in 1 unit size, and still have all the benefits?

Actually it's still pretty terrible, seeing as it removes wounds and doesn't even use it's 5++ to help reduce the perils.

[rotund helm]

I'm not following you

[lost estuary]

Was thinking of using some robots to help soak up Perils but there really isn't any reason to lose wounds on a 140pt model vs a 10-15pt infantry model

[rotund helm]

You get adamantium will 4+ on the robots to soak the wounds. But it's still a hard sell. Worth it on things like heavy/special weapon squads.

[lost estuary]

Oh I see

It's still really over prices vs a dread though sadly

[rotund helm]

I can't really rule on it until we've had a faq. RAW they get a power each and are decent. Without that utter trash ngl.

[lost estuary]

Thats true enough,

If only the WS wasn't trash

I also remember when bolt cannons were AP3

[tough wigeon]

based

[rotund helm]

Wonder if there's any merit in using the achea to project force domes. Ah wait its psychic weapons only. Well that's lame.

Ofc if they get it Inherently that could be Very strong. A tough little robot putting a force field up for a gun line

[rotund helm]

OK got my first 2.0 game booked, 2.5k. Hmmm what have I got painted that's Güd new edition.
Might try tanks + forcefield Mortefactor

[ivory walrus]

I've got a ZM game 1250 pts booked in for this weekend, against WB. Not going to have everything painted but trying this list - pride of the legion, still need to decide cults

[rotund helm]

Hmm pride is solid in low points where the slot punishment doesn't show.

[ivory walrus]

Especially ZM where there are very few HS options that are legal

Just HSS and now the deredeo (restrictions are now based on wounds not base size)

[scarlet ether]

don’t forget to bring force weapon for that Insta death for those corrupted guys 😉

[ivory walrus]

It's surprising how little access to force TSons get

Achean force for characters but not ICs

There's only 2 in that list, an achean maul or the tac squad and an achean axe on the terminators

Oh and the osiron

[rotund helm]

Full force yeah. But effective force all the achean stuff and plasma counts as it

So today in theoryhammer. Problem statement; How to put a force dome in your armoured Spearhead without leaving it horrifically exposed. Can't be infantry as they have to start deployed. Can't be on its own as it'll just get picked off.

[lost estuary]

Dread?

[rotund helm]

NGL despite the inefficiency that's probably better than my other answer of Forge Lord on Bike with a castellax Achea bodyguard.

[lost estuary]

That said no shooting sucks

[rotund helm]

Or just any consul allowed to take a bike and a small unit of bikes

Ooh Siege breaker could work. Throw out Sunder to a predator Squadron..

[nocturne cove]

I mean I think we're one if not the only faction in the game with legitimate ranged force weapons that isn't a psyker spell

[narrow bramble]

Just sad that they sucks

:)

[nocturne cove]

I mean rending 6 doesn't gets hot strength 6 improved to strength 8 doesn't sound very sucky to me. And the psyker test doesn't cause perils either. And being force it ID demons as well as anything toughness 8 and the rending makes it a threat to tanks

[wintry skiff]

what weapon is this?

[nocturne cove]

Legitimately it's plasma with very little in terms of downside and works against tanks and can't hurt you

[nocturne cove]

TSons have a special variant of Plasma called Æther fire.

Basically it's a strength 6 doesn't gets hot rending 6 plasma weapon that can be exchanged for free at no extra cost with any plasma weapon profile equivalent listed in the Æther fire weapon profiles. So plasma guns are Æther guns. Plasma cannons are Æther cannons etc.

However what's special is that they have achean force on them.

So you roll a psyker check before using them for your squad to activate achean force. This is counted as a force weapon and thus instant deaths demons but it also adds +2 strength per the achean force rule. Making the Æther guns strength 8 instead of strength 6.

Meaning an activated Æther weapon is strength 8 rending 6 doesn't gets hot.

And achean force unlike most psyker powers does not cause perils of the warp if you fail the leadership check

[tight storm]

Can You join Apothecary to Khenetai unit?

[rotund helm]

Yes. They gain the Mindsong blades rule, and therefore lose arcana.

[nocturne cove]

Yes.

As per the apothecary rule he gains all special rules related to the unit.

Warriors of the khenetai special rule confers mindsong of blades to the apothecary.

Meaning the apothecary is a unit with mindsong of blades.

Meaning mindsong can still activate in the unit as all models in the unit have mind song

Interestingly for the same reasons above you can also put a tech marine in a squad of khenetai as well with no penalty to the khenetai unit

Unfortunately ICs like praetors etc can't get mindsong and thus if they join a unit of khenetai the khenetai lose mindsong of blades effectively and can't cast it.

Which sucks a lot. I mean they could've just said units without warriors of the khenetai rule cannot gain any bonuses from mindsong of blades even if they're apart of the same squad...

The approach they went with severely limits what you can do with them

[tight storm]

Centurion can not join them?

[nocturne cove]

He can but unless he has a "I can get all the special rules of the unit I join" rule like apothecaries and tech marines do he will cause the same problem as the praetor.

[tight storm]

So probably he can not

Or they will loose mindsong

[nocturne cove]

I think the most effective strategy for khenetai is having another unit nearby with an IC in it that can cast supporting buff spells on the khenetai unit whilst not being apart of their squad

Otherwise you have to run the khenetai using whatever cult and disciplines your IC has to make up for the fact they don't get mindsong

[narrow bramble]

I'd say running a unit of breacher to buff them look good

With the +3'' move they can follow the khenetai

Wait i just realized: what WS do you use in a fight ? The higher one?

Cause apoth are WS 4 and khenetai was 5

[odd edge]

models use their own weapon skill I think
so the apo would attack at ws4, the khenetai at ws5

[narrow bramble]

And the opponent?

Would he be fighting the ws4 or 5 ?

[nocturne cove]

5

Majority weapon skill

[narrow bramble]

Ok

[odd edge]

majority for that I think yeah

[narrow bramble]

Nice

Got me worried

[odd edge]

if your apothecary isnt getting immediately murdered in a pointless challenge you've done it wrong anyway

[nocturne cove]

I think if they have any precision attacks they allocate to specific models and use a specific models WS and toughness

[narrow bramble]

Ok my khenetai apothecary model is in the print plate with the khenetai

[odd edge]

always get your apothecaries killed

[narrow bramble]

Khenetai have chosen warrior

So you don't care

[odd edge]

yes but dont use that
get your apothecary killed like you should

[narrow bramble]

Nah they will challenge bob

Bob the troopman

[nocturne cove]

Technically even the apothecary gains chosen warrior

[narrow bramble]

If bob kill someone he will have a head on his base

[feral fox]

Apothecaries keep Arcana when the join Khenetai.

[narrow bramble]

If he fill multiple...

[narrow bramble]

I would say no

At least not RAI

Cause the khenetai rule say that you don't have arcana

And they get this rule

[feral fox]

Apothecaries select Arcana at army list selection. They join units before the game, which is after they select Arcana.

[narrow bramble]

If they have arcana you lose the khenetai spell

Btw are khenetai with power the higher WS infantry in the game ATM?

[feral fox]

You don't lose Mindsong if you have Arcana.

[nocturne cove]

Warriors of the khenetai would suggest you can't have a cult arcana for the apothecary

[feral fox]

You just can't select Arcana if you have Warriors of the Khenetai.,

But Apothercaries select Arcana before they gain Warriors of the Khenetai.

[narrow bramble]

Well ...

[feral fox]

You don't assign them to units during Army Selection

[narrow bramble]

I wouldn't use that

[feral fox]

So they don't get the rule in Army Selection

[narrow bramble]

It seems too cheezy

[feral fox]

So they do get Arcana

[narrow bramble]

And waac

[feral fox]

You're perfectly entitled to make up your own rules, but just realise no-one else has to play by them.

The rules let Apothecaries join Khenetai and have Arcana.

For what it's worth, the last time I Pavoni'd a Khenetai squad, 3 of them exploded...

[nocturne cove]

They have warriors of the khenetai rule

[narrow bramble]

Well RAW vs RAI

[narrow bramble]

How? Khenetai are W2

[feral fox]

They don't have Warriors of the Khenetai at Army Selection which is when you choose Arcana.

They get it at a later stage in the game.

[narrow bramble]

On 1d3 how can you get 5-6 w ?

[nocturne cove]

I dunno the fact khenetai special rules are given to the apothecary the moment he joins the squad suggests it is just overruled by warriors of the khenetai

[feral fox]

It doesn't say "lose Minor Arcana".

It says "may not select".

They have already selected.

It's clear.

[nocturne cove]

It's pretty clear the intention of models with warriors rule can't get a cult...

[narrow bramble]

Well then you have a psychic power

[feral fox]

There's a real need to not take rules that are clear and pretend they're not because (a) someone doesn't like them or (b) some totally unknowable idea of "intent".

[narrow bramble]

So you lose the khenetai spell

[rotund helm]

Sorry but that argument doesn't hold up at all. You can't ignore a restriction that says you can't select an arcana , just because it's already been selected. And the RAW vs RAI "make up your own rules" is pretty condescending and unappreciated.

[pastel crest]

Great, another rule loopholes, thanks GW

[nocturne cove]

I mean the argument is that you select the apothecary and khenetai blades seperately and at that point the apothecary could have another cult chosen in that time...

But the apothecary rules also dictate that not only does be gain all the special rules of his unit he joins but he also gains all its restrictions as well given by those rules.

You cannot deploy an apothecary by himself. He has to be assigned to a unit prior to battle start.

So in this state before the battle starts are we to assume that the apothecary gains his cult before he joins the unit or does the act of buying him and assigning him to a squad happen simultaneously? Meaning he doesn't get a chance to buy a cult because he can't be selected to be by himself anyways.

It absolutely needs AN FAQ regardless but rules as intended it's incredibly clear models with mindsong can't get cults because warriors forbids it.

Essentially we're arguing if the moment you buy an apothecary and a khenetai unit they are two seperate entities in a theoretical space of army building or if the act of buying an apothecary and assigning him to a unit happens in the same instance.

@feral fox

I think given the importance of warriors and the wording it implies and the fact an apothecary is for all intent of purpose immediately assigned to a unit and can't deploy by himself he has to adhere to similar restrictions

As the unit he joins

[pastel crest]

You buy a apoth unit- select a cult for them- assign each apoth model to a different unit- apply restriction

Raw I can see that the restriction is applied after selecting cult, but we definitely need an faq.

[scarlet ether]

this really is the Legion with the Thousands FaQs

[nocturne cove]

I do love how even over a month later after having these rules leaked we're still having to have long winded philosophical debates about the intentions of the writers wording and meaning even now.

[odd edge]

is this what being an english lit teacher is like

[nocturne cove]

My only worry with all of these "it needs an FAQ" they might end up making things even worse for our legion with the faqs

[pastel crest]

Typical GW

[odd edge]

at least then we can nickname the FAQ the Nikaea edict and it would be slightly funny to distract us from how we suck

[feral fox]

You don't assign Apothecaries when you buy them in Selection. Apothecarion Detachment p.116 is really clear on this.

They get bought "as any other unit, using up a single Force Org slot and bought in the same manner".

You get Arcana at this stage, selection.

Apothecarian Detachment then says "before the first turn begins and any models are deployed" you assign to another unit.

So (1) all Apothecaries in a FO slot have to have the same Arcana.

(2) Arcana exist before Apothecaries are attached to squads

They then "gain all the special rules" of the unit they are assigned to.

And, as above, Warriors of the Khenetai does not mean you lose something you already have. Warriors of the Khenetai stops Khenetai getting Arcana, but it cannot stop Apothecaries (or Techmarines) from having Arcana.

[ivory walrus]

So just double checked this. Corrupted are instant deathed by weapons that 'have the force rule' given achean force doesn't have force they don't inflict instant death on either corrupted or daemons

[feral fox]

"All weapons listed here are counted as 'Force' Weapons for those rules that affect such weapons."

[ivory walrus]

Right but corrupted doesn't say force weapons inflict instant death, it says 'weapons with the force rule inflict instant death'

[nocturne cove]

The way they have been trying to write our rules it seems to be very much instead of working WITH preexisting rules they instead just disallow interaction entirely so my fear is when the FAQs start coming instead of coming to a mutual compromise they instead just disallow anyone from joining khenetai like apothecaries etc. Similar to moritats and ather guns or ICs and aether guns. They might turn around and just say ICs can't have them at all

[feral fox]

Fair enough. Weapon type vs special rule.

[nocturne cove]

Or skehmet they might turn around and say they entirely meant for combi bolters of any variety to not get aspyhx shells or aether plasma

[narrow bramble]

Can't wait for the faq to nerf magnus

🙂

[nocturne cove]

Like instead of making things more thematically correct the FAQ just makes things even less fun

That's my fear

[narrow bramble]

Well we all play alpha legion right

Worst case scenario

😆

[tough wigeon]

yeah i do worry

[tough wigeon]

if it nerfs we call it that sure

[odd edge]

If it makes us shit im jumping ship and playing word bearers though

[tough wigeon]

im staying with my TS til the end

however i did always want to make a DA or NL army also

[scarlet ether]

already planning to play both

[tough wigeon]

but my main army will always be TS

[odd edge]

since my blackshields army is basically a TS army given that they're all former TS I would feel absolutely no guilt about leaving if we suck

[tough wigeon]

i wonder if they'll do blackshield's this edition

or shattered legions

[odd edge]

shattered legions arent particularly complex to write so I imagine that they'll be in a pdf
if they dont do blackshields I'll be pretty pissed though

[tough wigeon]

blackshields were pretty cool

but i fear they may get rid of it

[rotund helm]

Hopefully not.

[odd edge]

I dont see why they would, they do generally try not to remove armies people already play from the game (Looks at the feedback to some fantasy armies getting fucked over by AoS) and they're no more complex to write than any legion

[rotund helm]

Free reign to Count As whatever Legion you want in the meantime

[odd edge]

idk what legion I would count them as if they didnt get proper rules tbh
they dont really fight like thousand sons any more so probably one of the more basic legions

the most useful legion trait for them is the space wolves trait oh god oh fuck

[narrow bramble]

angry Magnus noise

[odd edge]

The entire basis of this homebrew is my hatred for Magnus your words mean NOTHING to me

[keen jackal]

Minor brain rambling inbound.

So. Destroyers with jump packs. Same cost as assault Marines. Lose line, can only have tech marine/apothecary/moritat join them.

Gain an extra pistol shot, bonus attack on everyone, counter-attack, rad grenades for T penalty, potential special ranged weapons, same amount of power weapons as assault Marines.

In thousand sons I can either have them keep their bolt pistols, give their pistols shred for +2ppm, or give them Volkite serpentas. +10ppm, so fairly expensive, but each marine shoots 4 shots at S5 deflagrate.

The offensive power is pretty good, basically twin Volkite charger Marines that can get up into range stupid fast, AND get a charge bonus off, but it's pricey. Is the better option to just bring them stock for the melee potential, if I do that, should I add the power weapons? The attached moritat will probably be doing more damage with his pistols anyways, but if he chain fires the unit can't charge. They can still be good in melee if he does, because of rad grenades, counter attack, and potential power weapons.

They'd be better if they could take twin or at least more plasma pistols, or if we could change non character power weapons for achean force weapons, hmm.

A squad of 10 jump destroyers with twin Volkite is cheaper than 2 squads of tactical support squads with Volkite chargers, and they have warhawk packs instead of taking rhinos. Better in melee, too. 40 S5 ap5 deflagrate shots and 12 aether fire pistol shots into a target is bound to do something, but is it worth the cost?

[clever sparrow]

Consider, you could do something similar with the Guard of the Crimson King and mortalis destroyers to make them cheaper overall

[keen jackal]

Well I guess the jump packs are +3ppm, but still

I suppose that's a good point, if I wanted to deploy them in the board or rush into melee without chain firing, the warhawk packs are better, but with GotCK it certainly helps getting them into position, I'm more worried about intercept and augury scanners personally. And I'm forced to bring sekhmet in GotCK, which I'm not too keen on currently.

[clever sparrow]

Fair points, Sekhmet aren't the most appealing pick rn for us imo

I just wanted to screw around with 10 volkite destoyers and a moritat for a whole lotta pewpew

[odd edge]

mortalis destroyers do get termite assault drills, which would make them unable to be intercepted themselves as they dont get out of the drill as soon as they come in
but im not sure how that fares in the points comparison with the assault destroyers

[keen jackal]

It's an extra source of telepathy, which is always good.

If we can legally activate achean force on the moritat's pistols, they don't get hot, so he gets all 12 shots off. Really nice. He and the Volkite should be able to clear a point without needing to jump into melee, but a lot of our stuff also does that.

[clever sparrow]

I don't see why the Moritat doesn't get to use achean force. All our infantry characters are psykers, so one would assume he can use the power on his guns

[keen jackal]

You'd assume that, but you can't use the IC's leadership when activating achean force, even if it's his weapon. If no one else in the squad has achean force weapons in the shooting phase, can he still activate them? And then use the sergeant's LD? RAW if the moritat was alone he can't boost his own guns.

Which our play group has decided is stupid. We're house ruling that ICs can take achean force weapons and can activate them. Still can't swap out all power weapons for them, but oh well

[clever sparrow]

...God the more I hear the more and more I just think our rules weren't even looked over, let alone playtested

[feral fox]

Destroyers can't be joined by Apothecaries and Techmarines. And you don''t have to take Sekhmet in GotCK (they "may be selected as Troops").

[keen jackal]

I have a sinking feeling that they were happy with the p1 playtest rules, then someone higher up on the decision making ladder got BTFO by someone trying to spam things, and just decided to take a chainsword to the playtest doc in retaliation.

[keen jackal]

Apothecaries and tech Marines gain the special rules of units they join, including bitter duty

[feral fox]

No, they don't.

Apothecarion Covenant, p.116. Explicitly calls out that they don't get Bitter Duty.

Ditto Techmarine Covenant, p. 125.

"With the exception of... Bitter Duty"

[keen jackal]

Well would you look at that, I must have glossed right over that blurb.

[rotund helm]

If you ever want evidence that TS are unfairly treated, look at the cost for artificer armour on Khenetai, then look at the coost of Artificer armour for eveyr other unit in the game that has it.

(the real favourites get it on all models base included in the price)

[clever sparrow]

...think someone at GW has a bit of a hate for us? 😆

[odd edge]

maybe someone there just never managed to beat us in 1.0
like that story of the guy who applied for a job working on an app he used, fixed a bug that had annoyed him for years, then quit immediately

[rotund helm]

I am almost certain this is what happened.

[ivory walrus]

Wait? Why? Are there any other units with more expensive artificer?

[rotund helm]

its 10 pts on every unit in the game, 15 on khenetai

[ivory walrus]

If it's just khenetai surely it's an oversight

Like in some playtest it went to 15 pts for everyone and they didn't drop it for Khenetai

[pastel crest]

Where is our day one faq...

[odd edge]

clearly GW forgot that we cant actually see the future when deciding when to drop it

[pastel crest]

What do we want for pdf units again?

[odd edge]

something from the order of blindness
jsut getting ammitara back would be kinda lame, but we dont have anything representing the order of blindness now and we have units that are connected to the other two orders (khenetai are part of the order of the jackal, the order of ruin would have overseen the automata)

since a lot of the exemplary battle units are a destroyer variant and TS destroyers are part of the order of blindness, unique destroyers would be kinda cool

[nocturne cove]

Bets that the GW lore writers will have read enough tsons lore to know that destroyers are order of Blindness and not order of Ruin

[odd edge]

inb4 they actually do read our lore and just give us a unit of actual terrorists for the order of blindness

[pastel crest]

Wish the unit is useful and flavorful, not as bad as WB one or just far better than khenetai

[scarlet ether]

which WB one is bad? ah or you mean the free one?

[pastel crest]

Yeah

[odd edge]

yh rip that unit

very cool concept but crappy rules

[scarlet ether]

with that flavor text you would expect they would come with the “corrupted”
keyword already included

[pastel crest]

Or at least crusader.

But their psychic buff is really good, imagine if we get something like that...

A magister of Prospero aura, nice

[scarlet ether]

I wish for something like Ahriman command group upgrade

but yeah their buff is nice

[clever sparrow]

Ammitara coming back would be nice

Just give us Khalophis, both as a dude and as Canis Vertex 😛

[odd edge]

kalophis mega cringe gib Phosis T'Kar

[clever sparrow]

gib more characters in general tbh

having like 2 at most per legion is kinda sad

[odd edge]

tbh
the burning of prospero box set should have had a more minor character than Ahriman
one of the other named captains ideally, probably Maat or T'kar
then forge world give us amon and ahriman
cus ahrimans model is good but i do think it would be a lot better if forge world had made it
plus scenic base

[clever sparrow]

big agree

[odd edge]

or at the very least amon be in the box and ahriman be the forge world model

cus Ahriman is the first captain like
He's our big character
He's the future champion of tzeentch
He should have got the star treatment

[scarlet ether]

this 100%

[odd edge]

oh thank god this is a thousand sons group that agrees with me

I cba to discuss the benefits of having a properly good model over a model in plastic again

[scarlet ether]

imagine a diorama with Ahriman and the Runeprist on Prospero

[odd edge]

I would give fucking anything for that
or better yet, a graphic cinematic representation of Wyrdmake's death

God I hate that man

though tbh their battle was in the warp, irl he kinda just collapsed and died so it wouldnt be that great to look at :(
damnit black library give characters I hate gory deaths mroe

[rigid narwhal]

Phosis T'Chad please

[scarlet ether]

Shard of Magnus as unit ^^

[odd edge]

current magnus rules as shard of magnus

[clever sparrow]

god I just hate the wolves tbh

[scarlet ether]

yeah hard to show sadly

[odd edge]

real and true fuck the wolves

[clever sparrow]

dumbass egotist russ doomed a whole legion to fall to chaos

makes me livid

[odd edge]

https://tenor.com/view/explaining-gif-22499839

[clever sparrow]

well, horus did it too, but still

[scarlet ether]

Should have heard to Valdor

[odd edge]

space wolf fans trying to explain why the legion literally not writing anything down is good lore

[scarlet ether]

but damn one of the biggest hypocrite legion

[clever sparrow]

"psykers for me, not for thee"
"but russ, the rune priests literally speak to warp creatures"
incoherent howling noises

[scarlet ether]

and Russ losing after Prospero@against Alpha Legion and SoH isn’t because he is inapt

[odd edge]

like at least mortarion was unhypocritical in his hatred of the librarius project
even had the good grace to hate himself when he became a psyker himself
Russ was just like
"Oh yeah I have psykers but they're not actually psykers so I get to keep them"

Even though they were actually psykers and he full well knew it

[scarlet ether]

or saying TS should be destroyed because of their gene flaw but has Wulfen in his basement and even dared to use them on Prospero

[odd edge]

and just the fact that the first fucking speaker at the council of nikaea that the wolves sent up was a rune priest is so damn stupid

[scarlet ether]

Valdor should have taken Russ head for disobeying Orders from emperor

[odd edge]

he would have died if he tried to kill russ

and tbh
Valdor also took part in the burning
He was no fan of Magnus after how many custodes Magnus got killed with his mistake

[scarlet ether]

after Magnus took Russ heart of course 😉

Valdor said to Russ tho to uphold the order but Russ put him on the second wave witg the intention to never send him in

Valdor attacked because having one legion left is better then losing 2

[odd edge]

ah fair enough

[keen jackal]

Honestly most of the cool stuff from A Thousand Sons would have been nice to see. I understand they just want to get rules out there for things they already have made and that's fine, but come on.

Raptora units producing kine shields for other units, captain mcBurny hands assuming direct control over a phalanx of automata, Ahriman sitting inside his precognition pod uplinked to the thunderhawk he's in, the waxing and waning of the cult's power, the many enumerations the legion fights through, tutelaries, all of those things don't require actual models, just cohesive rules.

They act like the vehicles aren't piloted by the same astartes that are on the ground

[odd edge]

tbf, the telekine dome power is basically producing a kine shield for everyone around you, producing large ones for other people is shown to be fairly advanced
and psykers do need to be near the castellax achea for them to work, they just dont limit it to pyrae psykers on the tabletop
enumerations would be a cool upgrade thing you can give HQs to make them better at being a psyker, something like "this unit counts as x leadership higher when making a psychic test"
Tutelaries could maybe increase the range on psychic powers and help with line of sight?
I think the changing power of the cults is probably a big large scale to be included on the tabletop but it is neat
and corvidae pilots/precog would be a cool upghrade for fliers to improve jinking, iirc the TS in battlefleet heresy have them represented as a rule

[scarlet ether]

Also the old bonus that you get a buff if you cast a power what is linked to your cult

[odd edge]

Yes

encourage taking the proper discipline for your cult

[keen jackal]

With how many tests we make, and suffering full perils from even our minor powers, I'm amazed we didn't get litanies back. Even as an HQ upgrade, it couldn't possibly be as bad of an item now that perils are much more common

[odd edge]

yeah its whack that they're gone

perils generally go off on any failed test now right?

[scarlet ether]

yes

you only have your invul or adamant will - also a joke that we only get a +6 when taking Magnus

if they wanted to take us so many test we should have get as part of the trait

[odd edge]

at the very least let athanaeans keep it as part of their cult

hell maybe enumerations could give you adamantium will on your HQs

[nocturne cove]

Valdor was incredibly pissed off that prospero burned though because he saw the tsons more as scholars and philosophers and thus of great value to the imperium than simple soldiers because the imperium had oodles of soldiers but very few calm and keen thinkers

[rotund helm]

That's the official line. In the novel he urges Russ on.

Siegebreaker/Armistos/Master of signal type chap, for hanging about making force domes.

[nocturne cove]

Which is also really weird because the custodes and valdor would've been briefed directly by the emperor so they would know exactly what the emperor wanted to be done down to the exact detail. So I've always found it incredibly weird that the custodes didn't even look to question the change in orders so suddenly.

Especially given later on you find out custodes, especially eyes of the emperor have small communications devices they let them essentially hook up to the astropath network or something to get information and orders from their central command back on terra. So knowing this as well it seems the entire reason why prospero burned can be chalked down to no one apparently picking up the space phone and calling space dad to confirm whether or not he wanted his prospero well done or lightly seared

[lost estuary]

My guess is that Russ went in and committed

and Valdor had no choice but to follow, least russ dies

We know that the Tsons we're putting up a mean defense against the Wolves and without the SoS they would have unleashed devastation

[flat ferry]

It's explained in the Thousand Sons book that Valdor actively wanted to kill Magnus

[scarlet ether]

what me surprised me that no one check those 5k Sons of Horus catching all those civilian on Prospero

[flat ferry]

The Emperor wanted him captured, but Valdor thought he was too dangerous and happily accepted the new orders given by Horus

[lost estuary]

Ah Probably because he opened the webway gate and forced Valdor to deploy his custodes in defence

[nocturne cove]

That's another thing.

Russ tried calling magnus but of course he fat fingers the magic psyker phone and accidentally calls a demon pretending to be magnus instead.

Not only that but apparently no one had the idea of just sending a small envoy down to the planet to go talk to someone in person first? I know the jungles around Tizca was pretty much a death world for anyone without the psyker ability to see the ethereal insects that laid wasp eggs inside your brain in the warp but they could've also landed at the front door at least or one of the space ports... its not like the tsons were exactly unwelcoming to people coming to their planet

[lost estuary]

They did have the kine shield or something

[flat ferry]

From what I understand he didn't call a demon
He had a Remembrancer who was clearly a sleeper agent for someone
He figured it was magnus and tried to send him a message through the agent
But the agent actually belonged to Horus

[odd edge]

yh pretty much exactly that

that was the entire twist of prospero burns
kinda lame twist tbh

[flat ferry]

Nah, I loved it
The Burning of Prospero is one of my fave books

Made me actually like the Space Wolves

[odd edge]

I honestly couldnt get into it
and that was before I disliked the space wovles

I usually get into abnett stuff easily too, idk what it was with that book I couldnt vibe with

[flat ferry]

To be fair, I did read the book while high on pain medication

so that may have helped

[scarlet ether]

for a book called Prospero Burn there was not much Burning

[odd edge]

given that abnett was apparently ill while writing a large part of it that may have helped you get on the same level

[lost estuary]

So to bring it back to tactics, does Amon only buff Scout and Recon Marines?

[flat ferry]

his rule applies to anyone with Infiltrate or Scout

[lost estuary]

or or and?

if it's or then Seekers will also count and so would the Legion Land Raider
Proteus Explorator

which is funny

[flat ferry]

oh it does say "and"

that's weird

[lost estuary]

Hmm, do transports gain the same rules as the units it's transporting for Scout and Infiltrate?

[flat ferry]

they do not

[nocturne cove]

Ah yes the shield that the space wolves demand they lowered. So they did that inadvertently. But because leman russ didn't get a direct answer he orbital bombarded it anyways despite no actual aggression being shown really

[lost estuary]

Huh scout does according to this rule book
If a unit with this special rule is deployed
inside a Dedicated Transport, it confers the Scout special
rule to the Transport

Infiltrate is a bit different
If a unit with Infiltrate deploys inside a Dedicated Transport,
the same rules apply when deploying their Transport.

[flat ferry]

From what I remember the TSons didn't lower the Kine sheild, they didn't even know the Wolves were coming
Magnus covered the entire planet with an illusion
The population didn't know the Wolves were there until the Bombardment started

[nocturne cove]

Makes sense. Infiltration is a deployment special rule

[lost estuary]

So ends my ability to give a storm eagle shrouded +5