Thousand sons - 2.0 theorycrafting

[coarse hill]

I am sure we will remember more over time lol

[pastel crest]

If they don’t have psyker they can’t activate their claw.

[coarse hill]

thanks for doing it btw

[rigid narwhal]

Np. Like I said, it's not called 'sometimes asked questions', so there needs to be some coordination

[ivory walrus]

Oh another one @rigid narwhal the Asphyx Bolt Cannon has always been a replacement for Mauler Bolt Cannons hence why only Achea get them (you've accidentally said Osirion get them when they don't)

[rigid narwhal]

Gotcha.

[nocturne cove]

Asphyx shells on rotor cannons would be one of my questions

It was a nice rule in 1.0 because tsons liked rotors

[rigid narwhal]

I'm limiting it to 'Bolt' weapons

[ivory walrus]

That one isn't actually an oversight. It's just confusing because it's listed in the same place and they've renamed contemptor heavy bolters to gravis bolt cannon for some reason

Yeah Asphyx being lost for rotors is a bit of a head scratcher. Maybe they just forgot that was a thing last ed

[rigid narwhal]

I'm just limiting it to things with 'Bolt/Bolter' in the name, which is fine

seems to fall in line with what they're intending

[nocturne cove]

Does asphyx bolters work with fury of the Legion?

That's another one potentially

It should

[ivory walrus]

RaW no

But I feel it should

I've also had 2 people in my gaming group say that it's intended that they replace the bolter. Even though iron warriors specifically allow fury with theirs

[rotund helm]

They do?

[rigid narwhal]

already in there

[nocturne cove]

Ah didn't see it

[ivory walrus]

I think it's on one of their RoWs replaces fury with a better version and specifies that shrapnel bolts replace their fury with that version

[nocturne cove]

Is there another legion with special ammunition

Other than iron warriors

[ivory walrus]

Not that tacs get

Banestrike is available for SoH and AL

[rigid narwhal]

the thing so far

[nocturne cove]

Can you fury with that

[ivory walrus]

Nope because tacs can't take it

It's a vet/seeker thing only

[rigid narwhal]

Can anyone think of anything else off the top of their head? I've hit basically what I've seen.

[rotund helm]

thats my list. been noting them down whenever I see one.

[coarse hill]

Does Pyrae stack with existing HoW

[ivory walrus]

No, it's pretty clear it doesn't

There is merit to the question: Pyrae doesn't increase already existing Hammer of Wrath, however it did in the previous edition, was this change intended?

[nocturne cove]

"Who hurt you?"

OK maybe that question is a little too on the nose

[ivory walrus]

Thousand Sons clearly pay for the sins of their father both in lore and rules

Think the cats out the bag on the new Achean Configuration RoW

I'm absolutely part of the problem though

[pastel crest]

Nice!

[ivory walrus]

I do hate building castellax, super fiddly

[pastel crest]

Is there a way to buff the WS, A and I of our robots? Can that robot consul do anything new this edition?

[rotund helm]

Don't.. think so

He can join them and heal them with battlesmith

[ivory walrus]

Haven't looked too closely at the powers in the core book yet but +1 toughness from biomancy is all I've seen

[ivory walrus]

Praevian doesn't get battlesmith sadly

[pastel crest]

Then what can praevian do actually? I remember they only buff normal automata last edition

[ivory walrus]

He's a flavour pick for the requirements for Achean config because he does nothing for them

[pastel crest]

...What

[ivory walrus]

He gets master of Automata (Patris Cybernetica last edition) which allows him to join automata and he allows for a unit of castellax or vorax to be selected in the same force org slot. If selected his unit of Automata gains his LA trait

LA TSons does nothing for automata because they aren't infantry or cav

[pastel crest]

...

[ivory walrus]

Unlike last edition he doesn't have to join his unit though so he is free to join a unit of achea

[pastel crest]

Lmao, we maybe need to put this in the email.

[ivory walrus]

In fact his unit isn't even forced anymore. You can take a praevian without having any automata in the list

[pastel crest]

Like “dear GW, can the tax character we put in the rite of war have some uses for our themetic automata “

[ivory walrus]

For 15 pts he gets a discipline so can use that to support the achea but that's it

Unique wargear for a praevian is cortex controller for free and can buy a cyber familiar for 15 pts

[rotund helm]

Outside of biomancy, not really adding anything

[pastel crest]

What can cortex controller do now?

Well, I guess 5 t7 automata with line can still be useful and interesting

[rotund helm]

Cortex controller let's you ignore machine behaviour or other, less psychic, robots

[pastel crest]

.

😅

[rotund helm]

Hmm. Annoying, I was quite enjoying my praevian last edition but it doesn't really gain anything now

And if castellax are ws3 t6, can't react, no thanks.

[pastel crest]

Ws3 t6 i3 a2

[rotund helm]

At 100+ ppm they need more than that.

[ivory walrus]

Automata ignore programmed behaviour when within 6". But achea don't have programmed behaviour

[pastel crest]

Well they have, you just need psyker

[ivory walrus]

Yeah and the praevian is a psyker 🤣

To be fair you can give him Pavoni and have him join the unit for 10" move castellax

I'm running it because robots cool and they're scoring but jetbikes and landspeeders are far more efficient ways to get relentless aether plas cannons

[rotund helm]

I'm not convinced pavoni can work on automata...

Hmmmm would be fun

[ivory walrus]

It's simply all psykers in the unit and as pointed out earlier Achea are psykers

[rotund helm]

Yeah. So corvidae could also be useful. .

[ivory walrus]

If pyrae gets changed to add to existing HoW that could be useful too 3 automatic str 6 hits is pretty decent

[rigid narwhal]

If Corvidae does turn out to be 'focus fire the one thing until it dies' that could be great

[pastel crest]

That’s insane though, I guess it will be faqed.

[narrow bramble]

Just finished airbrushing this bad boi :)

Now time to make the command squad work !

[rigid narwhal]

So, if you -can- stack multiple instances of the same Arcana, Asphyx tac squads with an Apoth and 2x Raptora might be really solid

[pastel crest]

5++4+++

Basically better breacher,lol

[coarse hill]

I don't think it would ever work like that even if it did stack because it says "first wound", both instances would affect the first wound

unlike most others just isn't stackable

[pastel crest]

Nah, it’s just the wording. “Once the model is removed as casualty, the remaining wounds are allocated as normal.”

[narrow bramble]

damn choosing between the sniper thing and the +3'' will be hard

[coarse hill]

get an apoth

https://tenor.com/view/why-not-both-why-not-take-both-gif-11478682

[narrow bramble]

it's said in the rule you can only benefit from one

[coarse hill]

yeah, no "model" can have or use more than one

[narrow bramble]

all those models must select the same upgrade

[coarse hill]

nothing about benefitting from it being turned on

[narrow bramble]

if they are in the same unit

and apoc is attached to the unit

[coarse hill]

at list building you buy apoths as part of a different unit

[narrow bramble]

so unfortunately we are forced into one per squad

RAI you can only have one

so i'll try not to exploit raw to keep a casual setting for my club's HH

btw pavoni don't add range on the charge

as the +3'' is only on movement phase

[coarse hill]

An Apothecarion Detachment is selected as any other
unit, using up a single Force Organisation slot and bought
in the same manner. However, before the first turn begins
and any models are deployed to the battlefield, all models
in an Apothecarion Detachment must be assigned to
another unit from the same Detachment of the army
they were selected as part of

you only join them "before the battle"

not at list building

[narrow bramble]

yeah raw

[coarse hill]

that does mean all your apoths must have the same one though

[narrow bramble]

but rai it clearly show they only want one bonus per squad only

[coarse hill]

that wasn't my read whatsoever tbh, so I wouldn't say it was RAI

[narrow bramble]

technically yeah

hmmm....

[coarse hill]

I'm not trying to game things really either, I wouldn't play stacking cult powers for instance

[narrow bramble]

btw we can add to the list the fact that all apoth are forced into the same arcana

as it's clearly not intended

[coarse hill]

well I'd say that is intended and them being allowed to have a different arcana to the squad they join isn't haha

wait maybe I misworded

but you get my point

[narrow bramble]

the TS rule should have been playtested too much

[coarse hill]

we both have very different reads

[narrow bramble]

instead of the mess they are currently

[coarse hill]

/at all lol

[narrow bramble]

for now i'd say:

Raptora: trash/maybe combat units
Pyrae: on jetpack units
Pavoni: good on literally everything
Corvidae: good on everything that can shoot
Athanaen: Good on pinning weapon

*jetpack and jetbike

[coarse hill]

pavoni is def the standout, I think pyrae is a bit lacklustre except as a splash into units - like 20 despoilers would love it but need pavoni more right. Corvidae I don't think is always useful just as sometimes you already have precision shots/there won't be a good target to snipe but it is certainly second best. Athanean I think the issue is more that halluc is just so much better than regular pinning that why take units that can pin when you could have your psykers near guarantee whatever pins you want - it just doesn't do enough.

Broad agree though

[narrow bramble]

well a 5man squad with rotor cannon can be really good

and quite cheap

Pyrae can be really good with assault marines too

[coarse hill]

I'd def rather +3" than +1 HoW per model if I had to pick

both are v nice for melee though

[narrow bramble]

well on 12'' jetpack and 16'' jetbike

3'' is not that much

[pastel crest]

I think at least different minor arcana can affect a single unit.

Other wise attached IC and Magnus’ knowing all arcana is silly

Or of course maybe they just intend to make Magnus sillier, I don’t doubt that.

[narrow bramble]

are you meaning that they want magnus to be even more trash

just cost him at 1k like horus

[rotund helm]

Sad there's no Unrestrained version

[pastel crest]

I mean if only minor arcana can go off for a unit, Magnus’ ability of knowing all minor arcana seems pointless

[rotund helm]

Fuck it he can solo titans but is 2k points

[coarse hill]

Arite so this is kinda where I'm at with my list

Pride of the legion so relying on the vets to bully other line off objs

And hallucination spam to force pinning on anything that comes remotely near me

Curious how you would build the vets given that vague build, and whether I have enough anti tank?

[pastel crest]

Do vets get line?

[coarse hill]

in pride ye

[pastel crest]

Huh, nice

[narrow bramble]

only one heavy weapon on your veteran squad?

[coarse hill]

for corvidae sniping

[narrow bramble]

i'd put 2 anyway

you can always fail one

[coarse hill]

I'm actually considering the opposite, dropping the missile and corvidae entirely in favour of just taking some nemesis bolters

[narrow bramble]

well you have 2 firing port on the rhino

so you may as well use them

[coarse hill]

wait for real

I don't see any mention of that on the profile

[pastel crest]

Ah oh, no shooting window anymore?

[narrow bramble]

whaaaat

[rotund helm]

What! Nooo

[ivory walrus]

Yeah firing ports have been removed entirely, probably because the rhino and aurox are the only vehicle that have them iirc

For what it's worth my read of minor arcana is the same and Benlisted's. Each unit can only have one but the apoth and techmarines are different units and therefore can bring a second or potentially third arcana into the unit they join and all benefits can apply assuming the psychic tests are passed

I don't think the same power or arcana will/should stack though

[narrow bramble]

hmm interesting

does breacher shield stack with the +1 invul btw?

[rotund helm]

should do

[keen jackal]

Not making the veteran shooty squads corvidae and the biomancy healing apothecaries pavoni makes me sad. What about the flavor? Have you no shame...

[rotund helm]

My understanding is the apothecaries would have to be the same cult arcana as the unit they join.

[ivory walrus]

That absolutely slaughters the ability to have different cults across your infantry though. All apothecaries from the same force org slot all need to have the same cult

[ivory walrus]

It will do as the cap for raptora is 4++

[ivory walrus]

Loving that kitbash, been meaning to do a squad like that myself. Just need to source some regular mkIV backpacks

[rotund helm]

Ok so mathmatically, Ahriman kills a standard praetor in the first round of combat 0.83 times, (fudging master crafted into an extra attack). He strikes first due to reach, is ap2 and instant death. Against a centurion its 1.6 times.
Only way to improve this i can think of is a chaplain, this ups it to 1.16 kills against a praetor, 2.1 against a centurion (if i've got the reroll maths right, probably not lol).

[ivory walrus]

Yeah Ahriman is mental in combat now. That melee weapon is glow up of the century

[ivory walrus]

Was ctrl f'ing through playtest for something else but came across this for DA. It feels like we should've got the same rule

[rotund helm]

Wow look at that a rule clarifying different situations

[coarse hill]

Well there would be veterans from every cult, and apoths are all cult of the jackal for which there are no rules. But could easily switch them round!

[pastel crest]

Sounds pretty good

[coarse hill]

With him hitting on 5s MC is 2/3 of an extra attack I think?

[rotund helm]

I mean he on average Doesn't kill the Praetor so I'm not totally feeling it, But I think the stats are good enough to scare someone into not accepting the challenge, which is its own victory

[pastel crest]

Why don’t we have achean lance?

[rotund helm]

it would be a staff, but yeah, it's noticably missing

it's not like thousand sons don't use staffs

[rotund helm]

Bought some rubrics to turn into vets. What do we think for a good load out?

[pastel crest]

Amon is ws6 while ahriman is WS5, this is funny

Considering Ahriman is one of the first legionaries while Amon was turned into one when he was already an middle age scholar?

[rotund helm]

Yeah, doesn't really make sense

[lost estuary]

while you were studying the warp, I was studying the blade

[odd edge]

apos are order of the jackal, cults and orders are separate things
most apos were pavoni cult, and all part of the order of the jackal

[rigid narwhal]

Wait...so the Apoths are mostly Pavoni, which makes you go faster....TS Medics really into performance enhancers!

[odd edge]

no wonder the space wolves hated the thousand sons, they were always so uptight about keeping it fair at the legion olympics

though i've not read the TS rules in depth much in 2.0, would pavoni apothecaries affect the unit they're attached to with their power?

[rigid narwhal]

Ye

and you do pick cults per character

[rotund helm]

Personally I think no, there is a rule saying all characters in the unit must be the same. So yes it can cast as a backup to sergeant.

[narrow bramble]

i agree

but it's lame

[odd edge]

ah thats very lame

[pastel crest]

We need a faq.

[odd edge]

I guess they want to prevent using cheap characters to stack cults into one unit and make it really powerful

[pastel crest]

A lot of faq tbh

[rigid narwhal]

Just gonna multicast Pavoni

[odd edge]

pavoni best cult anyway tbh
Biomancy is awesome

[rigid narwhal]

Because there's only restrictions on 'use', not on 'being affected by'

[pastel crest]

Considering you have about 25% chance to fail a ld test, I dunno if they really need to worry about stacking

[odd edge]

looks like they worried about it anyway tho
Hopefully it gets FAQ'd out, seems like theres a lot in here that needs an FAQ

[pastel crest]

And Magnus’ ability of knowing all arcana will be pointless since he will effectively only know one once he join a unit.

[rotund helm]

Yeah that doesnt make sense either .

[rigid narwhal]

Magnus is pointless in general at the moment.

He's too expensive.

[rotund helm]

Running through all magnus options , you're only going to cast Telepathic fugue and biomantic augmentation. Nothing else really works.

He's like 75 pts overcosted.

Being generous

[rigid narwhal]

And still you could just have other characters and a bodyguard for his cost

[pastel crest]

Bio can’t even buff him since his weapon strength is fixed

Lmao

[nocturne cove]

Two librarian interns does his job as a buffing unit better and can act independently for less points

[pastel crest]

So no Id dread for him

[rigid narwhal]

and with points left over for a bodyguard

[pastel crest]

Actually, can psychic hood stack?

[rigid narwhal]

No

[pastel crest]

Thank god

[rigid narwhal]

But a Chaplain is just as skilled a psyker

[rotund helm]

I assume Magnus primarch rule makes him immune to psychic hood at least

[rigid narwhal]

Yep

A librarian, a chaplain, and a unit of Sekhmet get to cast 3 powers and 3 Arcana for 10 more points than Magnus, though

Because the limitation on Arcana is only for the 'Character' subtype

and if you take one of the ICs as the Warlord you get Magister of Prospero for the whole unit

[pastel crest]

Yeah, I think that’s really the best one buff wise

[narrow bramble]

tbh it's also a matter of slots

don't think librarian is worth it

just go with primus

i'm thinking arhiman, primus and chap with a 10man sekhmet

deathstar time

[pastel crest]

Scale of game too, yeah.

[narrow bramble]

will probably start to do my list soon

as my 5 lascannon ond 5 volkite culverie should arrive soon

[nocturne cove]

Librarian is only worth it if you're facing another psyker army

[narrow bramble]

i think psyker will be fairly common

but not that dangerous for us

[rigid narwhal]

Just the single libby is probably enough to just go ruin the one enemy psyker in most armies.

I think Telepathy is strong enough most armies that can take it will

Or Biomancy if going for a death star

[narrow bramble]

well we have way to snipe the psyker easily

should'n be an issue for us

[pastel crest]

I need to find a primus model since didn’t get the official one because of disliking it.

[narrow bramble]

you can get a grey knight nathelcium

on a terminator

and it will look great

and GK bitz are quite cheap and easy to get

[pastel crest]

Let me see.

[narrow bramble]

https://megabitzshop.com/Warhammer-40k-Bitz-Grey-Knights-Grey-Knight-Terminators-Arm-P-Apothecary-Narthecium

This bitz, there it's expensive af

but don't need that much work to go on a cataph

[nocturne cove]

The official primus medicae looks like poop

[narrow bramble]

lmao just sent a message to a GK friend

i'm gonna get 4 of these =p

[rotund helm]

Ooh Khenetai stls

Do we think they'd make good destroyers ?

[narrow bramble]

send me the stl and i'll tell you =p

[rotund helm]

In stc discussion

Ngl the age of 3d printing is making me overthink weapon options. Already done every combi weapon and pistol options with mag holes so can swap.

[narrow bramble]

ok so if i get a 5 totor squad to make hq/elite choice

i need what? 1 primus, 1 chaplain, 1 librarian?

what else can i do?

or maybe i can do primus, chaiplain and 3 dudes with claws

just cause they look good despite being shit on the table

[rigid narwhal]

That's been my thing. A bunch of MKIV marines is reasonably-priced for GW, but I will happily print or obtain from 3rd parties all the conversion bits.

Shoulderpads, heads, weapons

[pastel crest]

Would like to see how they design mk 6 heads for us.

[rotund helm]

Slightly too salty rundown of Magnus the red

[pastel crest]

You are a magister.

Wait what, Magnus cannot even use our special reaction

Lmao.

Actually all primarch cannot use reaction, is that true?

[rotund helm]

Any special reaction that confers a defensive boost primarchs can't use

[ivory walrus]

Speaking of stls anyone have files for aether fire cannons?

[rotund helm]

what the ones mounted on achea?

10k happy butter sons - Cults 3D

[ivory walrus]

Yeah, wanted some to mount on some land speeders.

Cheers I saw them but difficult to see in the photos but they don't look quite right to me

[barren frost]

I bought the 10k happy butter sons and you're right

the aether cannons are very flat

[ivory walrus]

I've got a mate who's a 3d artist might throw him some cash and one of my castellax to model me one up

[rotund helm]

Any thoughts on optimum Destroyer loadouts?

for danger close teleports

[keen jackal]

Twin asphyx gets pricey, I'd probably just keep them as is for a bodyguard for an aether fire moritat. He gets all 12 shots since our plasma doesn't have gets hot

[rigid narwhal]

(He also can't activate them unless he's always part of the unit)

Also why can't Destroyers have 2x plasma as well? Or anything else for that matter? It'd be sweet...

A bit stuck on how many plasma support squads I want....

[ivory walrus]

Did destroyers get to keep the option to swap pistols to volkite serpentas in final? That's a good shout

[rotund helm]

yeah they have a surprising amount of options

including a disintegrator on the foot version, which AFAIK has never had a model.

where i got up to in digital kitbash

[ivory walrus]

The disintegrator was available on that limited edition rogue trader marine they did a few years back

[rotund helm]

technically thats a combi disintegrator, but yeah that will have do (and i have the stl)

I have that model in my hands now.. it could totally be a destroyer, but it would be basically impossible to get a unit to match it

can give the whole squad melta bombs, if you really want to make sure a tank dies.

[pastel crest]

Look chunky.

Hope we get some special destroyer in our pdf.

[ivory walrus]

Maybe I'm too pessimistic but what our PDF just be us getting our special scouts back

[pastel crest]

I will seethe

[rotund helm]

I'd love achean force weapon assault marines

[barren frost]

what else are we missing from 1.0?

other than the snipeybois

[barren frost]

also, 'eye' spot my eye torso far right.

[rotund helm]

So in terms of missing options I think its Ammitara, tartaros option for sekhmet, Psychic upgrade for Ahrimans command squad, and psychic upgrades for veterans

And asphyx rotor cannons

[nocturne cove]

Achaean Thallax would be cool

[rigid narwhal]

I want them to get our basic units working before branching out, tho

[nocturne cove]

Ofc

Trying to think of cool apothecary conversions atm

[pastel crest]

I notice 10 laser cannon hss only cost 275 pts, and can chip even a Spartan with flare shield 2 glance per phase, this is actually pretty solid.
Is there other hs lost unit more efficient at damage dealing?

[narrow bramble]

volkite culverin

cause fuck the infantry

getting a 5man lascan squad AND a 5 man volkite dudes

[pastel crest]

Hmm, that’s definitely more destructive on infantries.

Holly molly hss is actually good now.

[narrow bramble]

And let's be honest it look cool

[rigid narwhal]

are those cable bits naturally flexy? Or do you need to warm them up?

[narrow bramble]

you need to warm them

shall receive my kit on the week

time to destroy infantry 🙂

[icy echo]

Is there a reason to run regular Cataphractii over Sehkmet for Sons? Trying to figure out what to do with my Age of Darkness box

[rotund helm]

Save points?

[narrow bramble]

not pay an exorbitant taxe for a unit that is worse than thunder hammer?

[pastel crest]

How much does a catac with fist cost though?

[odd edge]

tbh forge world should sell the resin parts of the sekhmet kit separately like they do with the khenetai

[pastel crest]

Yes!

[narrow bramble]

🙂

[odd edge]

if any of my chinese friends actually offered that as an option I would take it

[narrow bramble]

if you want to slide into my dm to ask me for the link i fear i couldn't help myself and not give a link to you, but of course i heavily condamn recast 😆

[nocturne cove]

I wouldn't mind either tbh if you heavily condemned recasts by sending me such a link please

[pastel crest]

😆

[narrow bramble]

of course as a thousand sons we only use those to catalogue the knowledge of such heresy

🤡

[nocturne cove]

It's only heresy if you have your fingers crossed whilst reading it.

[rotund helm]

Well I have secured enough parts for 5 more sekhmet. No idea what to do with the other 5 cataphractii tho

Still thinking force axes for sekhemt ?

[pastel crest]

Aye, too expensive to not taking axe.

[narrow bramble]

well i think they would be better with thunder hammer tho =p

[pastel crest]

I mean, if points enough , sure.

[rigid narwhal]

Regular terminators with hammers is just better

[pastel crest]

Command squad I assume?

[rigid narwhal]

Especially Command squad with Line.

[rotund helm]

that is very tempting

[rigid narwhal]

I kinda feel like if you're making them a melee ID unit you're taking hammers, and if you're taking Sekhmet trying to just make them Powerfists + Extra isn't great

Sadly, the axes are the only way to get AP2 on them otherwise

So as a counter-terminator or dreadnought unit, Hammers are just better.

Sekhmet with Swords and Athanaen + Telepathy make a pretty decent Anti-Power Armor unit, tho

[pastel crest]

What worries is our unit lack buff of those melee legions, meaning we are more or less the worse in combat.

Maybe we should make our melee unit as cheap as possible to screen those melee elite and let range unit do the work.

[rigid narwhal]

Like, I think matchups like Sons of Horus we use the Sekhmet to kill the power armor squads

Because they're -1 Strength to wound, encouraging them to wall off or tarpit.

But 6S Sekhmet don't care

And yeah, then stuff like Aetherfire or Dreads take on the 2+ save stuff

[narrow bramble]

sekhmet have access to biomancy so they go to T5 avoiding ID

it's SUPER powerfull

and with TH + bio you have STR9 so you are "immune" to -1S, that make it absolutely insane in close combat

[pastel crest]

With Thammer, 5 Sekhmet is 375 pts though.

[rigid narwhal]

You could just cast Biomancy with your Praetor on his command squad

[narrow bramble]

yeah but a 5men sekhmet is more independant

no need to babysit them

[rigid narwhal]

If you wanna pay 375 points for that, be my guest

[narrow bramble]

i'll just get a 10 man squad to do a deathstar

😆

[nocturne cove]

Is it weird that khenetai can't take jump packs

[karmic bay]

Can always make them Pavoni, I guess?

[pastel crest]

They never can.

But I am mad they don’t get artificer armour all around

[nocturne cove]

They never could but it doesn't quite seem to make sense and AA

[odd edge]

it did feel weird last edition since legions with a similar unit could generally put jump packs on them
still feels weird but at least a lot of those units lost that option this edition

artificer armour is definitely something they should get

[narrow bramble]

Praetor almost finished, still not sure if i should play him cataphractii or tartaros

[pastel crest]

Can the dreadnought HQ in fury of ancient choose their warlord trait or its fixed?

[pastel crest]

. So he can choose a warlord trait.

[nocturne cove]

Seems like it

[pastel crest]

You know what I am thinking...

[nocturne cove]

Eidolon of Suffering?

[pastel crest]

Very Angry Dread

[nocturne cove]

Man the core warlord traits are underwhelming

I was going to suggest alternatives but there's only three of them and they're really not that good...

[odd edge]

do you have to take that dreadnought warlord in a FotA army?

[nocturne cove]

I mean I guess they didn't want them to be so good everyone just picked the core trait all the time but these are not great.

[odd edge]

ah so you do

[pastel crest]

Yeah

[nocturne cove]

Given how good dreadnoughts are I understand why the limitations are in place

Shame you can't make a leviathan your warlord

[pastel crest]

Theoretically, you only need to cast 1 power and two minor arcana, you can get a A9 brutal(3) mad 4++ dread...

[nocturne cove]

Really the biggest issue is we can't take an osirion talon and make that our warlord

Nor take them as Troops

[pastel crest]

Wait, does the limitation say you can not take leviathan?

[nocturne cove]

You can't make one your warlord

You can take as many dreadnought talons as you want but standard contemptor talons are troops choices. You can only have one fast attack and one heavy support option that isn't a dreadnought

[pastel crest]

Oh, I get.

Actually I don’t think this row is bad for us. If we want magus Osiron contemptor, the elite is usually very tight. At least now we can have some normal dread running around.

[odd edge]

tbh with how dreadnoughts are edition I dont think that RoW is bad for anyone

except your opponent

[pastel crest]

And our consul can still be psyker...

[odd edge]

can a mortificator take an osiron as his dread bud?

[pastel crest]

I don’t think?

[nocturne cove]

They should but given how the rules are written probably not

@odd edge

[odd edge]

and since osirons are no longer an upgrade for a normal contemptor that means they cant hang with a mortificator
my mortificator isnt even in my thousand sons army so this doesnt affect me but I am still disappointed

no ed and al mortificator/osiron duo

[nocturne cove]

Add it to the faq list I guess

Or just get opponents permission

It's not like you're not paying points for everything anyways

[odd edge]

how long is the Tsons FAQ list now 😂

the book of Magnus is just the things we need FAQ'd for 2.0

[nocturne cove]

Book of grudges but its just filled with FAQ changes and Grammar corrections

[narrow bramble]

Wait can the mortif take a terminator armor?

[nocturne cove]

Yes

[narrow bramble]

Oh seems good

[nocturne cove]

They're actually specifically listed under the terminator consul entries

[narrow bramble]

So apoth for dread with totor armor

[narrow bramble]

Can you send it?

I have so many terminator consul to kitbash 😆

And I'll probably do 2 of each to chose armor pattern

[narrow bramble]

❤️

Wait do we have access to esoterist?

[nocturne cove]

Yep

Everyone does

[narrow bramble]

Ok time to buy kaldor Drago and do the sickest convesion ever

[nocturne cove]

He comes with either demon summoning or a santic bolt of anti demon

[narrow bramble]

Can you take a herald in a command squad with another flag bearer? 😆

[nocturne cove]

I mean heralds are ics

[narrow bramble]

Oh true

Damn

[nocturne cove]

Heralds are fearless and have fear(1)

So might not be useful in a command squad

His legion standard likes others grants the unit he joins line

And makes the unit ld 10 for pinning and moral

[narrow bramble]

Wow nice

[rotund helm]

Rundown of Ahriman in 2.0

[pastel crest]

If they can make Ahriman WS 6 and Amon WS 5...

May add this to my email list

[frosty plaza]

You mention Ahriman getting AP1, how does he do that?

[rotund helm]

Damn, misremembered his stick, that was Magnus

Ap2 handy but not quite the tank killer

@pastel crest was the same last edition but noone noticed

[pastel crest]

Oh really? Lol, totally had no impression

Both were bad at dueling last edition so I guess no one care about their melee power.

[rotund helm]

I confess I don't think I ever ran either

[pastel crest]

Neither did, either praetor or Magnus and consuls

[nocturne cove]

So for the time being in lack of an achean force staff weapon here is the house rules I suggest using:

Achean Force Staff

Strength +1

AP 3

Type
-Melee
-Reach(1)
-Achean Force (+2 Strength on force check success)

(Reach means +1 initiative)

[narrow bramble]

Plz don't give rules to staves

[nocturne cove]

Literally the only change to the force staff is achean force instead of force

[narrow bramble]

So I can continue using them as maces, sword and axes

[pastel crest]

i5 ap3 S8 attack with biomancy...

Not bad, not bad at all.

We just more models to be able to take these weapons

[tired comet]

Catching up on this thread, I'm curious as well.

I am getting one box to split with my wife for her emperor's children. I'm thinking she gets all the mk6 while I'll get all the terminators and the spartan. I already have 20 tacticals painted up and I have a bunch of tartaros and some cataphractii terminators already. I'm wondering if pride of the legion with regular terminators is the correct rite of war or if I should try the guard of the crimson king. Any other recommended generics?

[ivory walrus]

I would argue it's the inverse, there's very little reason to run Sehkmet over regular cataphractii. Sehkmet are exceptionally expensive for what they do

You're paying a lot for Achean weapons on every model but you can achieve the same outcome by putting power fists on regular cataphractii, it's still cheaper and you don't have to take multiple Ld checks to get str 8

[ivory walrus]

from a rules perspective. The reason to run Sehkmet is because they're cool

[coarse hill]

Sekhmet I think only really have merit as a deathstar with tons of characters buffing them up

competitively ofc

[odd edge]

run sekhmet because they're bad as penance for the sekhmeta

[ivory walrus]

A cataphractii command squad is just a better deathstar unless you really need the extra cast from the sergeant to achieve whatever you're doing

[coarse hill]

hmmm run sekhmet models as command squad...

[ivory walrus]

Yeah that's the strat really

[tired comet]

Won't really be playing competitively, the goal is just to paint fancy stuff and have fun

[ivory walrus]

Yeah that's fair, I don't think anyone should be playing heresy competitively

[rotund helm]

Yeah, Sekhmet probably compare more closely to a large command squad than an elite cataphractii squad. Will have to do a deep dive on them at some point.
TLDR their main USP is another biomancy slot.

[coarse hill]

so a lot hinges on if that stacks

[rotund helm]

Yup

@tired comet I think GOTCK is much better than Pride of the Legion tbh, but I guess line on terminators and Veterans IS good, if you want to run them, but you don't get the teleport option.

One heavy slot is painful though

[pastel crest]

Yeah. Pofl doesn’t worth it.

I still think Sekhmet worth it thoug, point wise it’s more efficient than generic termies

[tired comet]

Does the dedicated transport of one of the chosen units for court of the crimson king gain deep strike?

[pastel crest]

No

[coarse hill]

I think pride has play if stacking lots of bully line units, that's what it's for really

[rigid narwhal]

GOTCK is for Deep Strike smash

[nocturne cove]

Ah yes let's deepstrike 6 land raiders onto the board and make the 5th edition blood angels so jealous that they trigger the black rage early

[rigid narwhal]

I think pretty much whatever you drop your stuff next to is dead

[narrow bramble]

Sekhmet are an extra psyker slot

Where we only have 3/4

[rigid narwhal]

I'm adjusting Sekhmet in my list depending on how much stuff I actually need to pin

3 ICs and 2 Osirons should cover a bunch

[pastel crest]

How do we arrange our elite slot though? Two magus osiron and one apoth detach only leave one slot open.

[rigid narwhal]

Contemptors or Achea

Dreads are -really- good this edition

[rotund helm]

https://www.reddit.com/r/HorusHeresy/comments/vaz45l/horus_heresy_20_early_thousand_sons_tactics/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Tactica rundown on reddit (not by me)

[pastel crest]

Can you post a run down here? Don’t have an app at the moment.

[rotund helm]

you can use a webpage version surely?

[pastel crest]

For some reason reddit forces me to use app or doesn’t load page.

[rotund helm]

Wierd

[rigid narwhal]

A lot of points missed on this one

[nocturne cove]

Wait is he correct that biomancy benefits only work in our own turn

[rigid narwhal]

He doesn't mention that Khenetai can't activate in their vehicles, and can't have ICs

doesn't mention ICs not getting Achean weapons at all

Or that the rending shots actually cause autopens with Aetherfire

[nocturne cove]

Ugh he is correct... it only works in our own turn

[rigid narwhal]

Yep

[rotund helm]

To be fair I think khenetai Can activate in vehicles

[pastel crest]

Overwatch can trigger biomancy.

[rotund helm]

@nocturne cove yes, but potentially can be activates in overwatch/returnfire

[rigid narwhal]

He's also completely wrong about how Brutal works

[pastel crest]

But the limitation of “instead of shooting weapon” make it useless in combat is just dumb

[nocturne cove]

So you can cast psyker shooting in over watch?

[rotund helm]

Nothing says you can't (yet..)

[pastel crest]

Why not(

[nocturne cove]

The +1 toughness seems pretty dumb as well as it only protects you from reactions

[rotund helm]

And first round of combat

[pastel crest]

Does pinning give any benefit in combat?

[rigid narwhal]

You can charge a pinned unit in terrain without going last

[rotund helm]

No, just can't overwatch

That too

[pastel crest]

Shame

[rigid narwhal]

or, you can always just pin everything but what you want to charge, turn off its reactions, and then shoot the pinned stuff

forcing units to just stand there getting plasma'd seems hilarious

[nocturne cove]

It's a niche situation because most units have grenades

[rotund helm]

Even Magnus this edition

[shrewd turret]

can somebody explain the apothecary can take different minor arcana to me? I think I understand how it works, but some buddies of mine saying you can't. And dont have the physical book yet to explain it properly

And are there any alternatives for them in terms of characters we can take a lot of?

[pastel crest]

No they can’t. Apoth in one unit can take only one minor.

But you can attach them to unit with different minor

[rotund helm]

I don't think you can. It gives you redundancy for casting the same minor though.

[pastel crest]

So Magnus actually get 25 pts more expensive, that’s ridiculous...

[rotund helm]

I genuinely think magnus is costed for a 1.0 version of psychic powers where they were all really good

[shrewd turret]

Guess I'm referring to this, but that's also a discussion

[nocturne cove]

Honestly they should just dump magnus being able to cast any psyker powers from the core book and instead give him his own special discipline only he can cast from.

There. Now you have full freedom and free reign to balance him exactly how you want to. That's how the designers should've done him

Not cost him against a constantly changing set of powers

[coarse hill]

I think 2 Achea stacks up badly to an Osiron magos tbh for very similar points. How much telepathy casters are you going with out of interest?

[rigid narwhal]

all 5

Athanaen + Telepathy

[coarse hill]

are most lists going to have 5 good targets to pin? I genuinely don't know

[rigid narwhal]

Probably 3ish

5 just ensures you pin them

[coarse hill]

yeah that's def my read, you buy the unit and all Apoths in it need to have the same cult, but then "before battle" they can join any other unit regardless of cult. Not 100% though as heresy doesn't have a pregame operation order list like 40k

[coarse hill]

/still have pinners when some die

One thing I am trying to work out is whether one Telekinesis caster is worth it for the 5++

[rigid narwhal]

Depends on your list, I think

You want the dome on a long-range unit

[shrewd turret]

I still want to do all the cults I think.

but need to make an excel sheet to figure out exactly how and what. (I rely on Battlescribe an awful lot normally)

[coarse hill]

there's definitely some use for each

[rigid narwhal]

like Raptora on those units you're never going to take

[coarse hill]

I was thinking even like rhino rush would love an invuln if you could get them in the dome reliably

[rigid narwhal]

sure, but you need that guy standing back someplace, and preferably not alone

[rotund helm]

I'm thinking mortificator

With a contemptor shooty buddy

[coarse hill]

embedded in a squad ofc. I guess if you start the guy on the line you can probably catch a good amount of rhinos moving past you tbh. Or could put it on a char with infiltrate

[rigid narwhal]

The dome guy is probably just a base Centurion + Power

He's gonna be standing still a lot and you don't want him shot, or charged

[rotund helm]

Armistos or master of signal in some heavies works

[coarse hill]

yeah I feel like if you're spending that much on a guy to stand at the back a little extra for a solid buff/utility is alright

depends on the list though

[pastel crest]

Master of signal is dumb for deepstrike...

[karmic bay]

Hm. I'm a little concerned about the viability of Thousand Sons outside casual/narrative play

Which is unfortunate, because I love how Castellax-Achaean Battle Automata and Sekhmet Terminators look

[rigid narwhal]

it is what it is. Play the poster boys or don't do competitive things.

typical GW

[nocturne cove]

I got a bunch of these shoulder pads to use as alternatives with the achean shoulder pads

[mental jetty]

Let’s say I decided on TSons, they like tactical marines right? What would I want to add to the box first?

[pastel crest]

Dreadnought.

[narrow bramble]

apothecary

8 of them is a good start 😆

[pastel crest]

Nah, fanfic.

Yeah 2-3 apoth will be cool.

[narrow bramble]

APOTH SPAM

literrally have 10 apoth conversion ready to be printed once i'll get my printer

[willow mirage]

Where did you get those?

[rotund helm]

@nocturne cove oh those are cool, wherefrom?

[nocturne cove]

https://mastercrafted.co.uk/shop/infantry-components/shoulder-pads/standard/banded-ornate-veteran-shoulderpads/

[nocturne cove]

@rotund helm @willow mirage

[willow mirage]

Thanks for the pointer

[narrow bramble]

Maybe we should ask code walrus for z faction channel :)

Instead of using the theory crafting one 😂

[narrow bramble]

Damn the damaged shoulder pad look good

[rotund helm]

Looking at changes to magnus from p1 to final. See if I can work out why he's costing 520.

So in p1 at 520 pts he had
Arcane litanies (now gone)
Adamantium will 2+ (now 3+)
Gave army wide extra dice to psychic tests( now 1 less wound from perils minimum 1)
Could cast 3 powers (technically still can, but the way the powers work he never will)
Ignored cover and shrouded
Gun was s5 (10) (now s3(6))

Even then its nothing to shout about, unless p1 psychic powers were a lot better.

[narrow bramble]

The extra dice was insane

Btw he still have 2+ adamantium as he have a 3+ and give a +1 so 2+

[rotund helm]

Nah he only adds it to infantry

Not even cavalry

[narrow bramble]

The extra dice made him worth the extra point

Oh damn

P1 Magnus was correctly priced

Rn he may be worth 400 pts at best

And I'm not sure I'd use him for that point cost

3 vindi are also worth 400 points and so war more work

😆

[nocturne cove]

Already asked. They said they couldn't handle moderation of 18 different faction legion channels

[narrow bramble]

Well we will continue theory crafting then 😂

[ivory walrus]

Got my praevian and his boys all built up this morning, ready for them to suck big time on the table

[rotund helm]

Fabulous

I need to get me some robots. I have 3 darkfire castellax.. but no rule for them yet.. (and I'm unlikely to get the mechanicum book just for one unit lol)

[coarse hill]

amazing conversion

simple and effective

[frosty plaza]

What’s the base model for the praevian?

[narrow bramble]

3d print? Or traditionnal cast?

[ivory walrus]

The new chaos sorcerer kit. FW praevian backpack and servo skulls, the blade is off a khenetai

[ivory walrus]

FW

[narrow bramble]

I'm probably gonna stick a big claw on the back of a terminator+ a forgeworld weapon and call it a day :)

Too many consuls to do

[ivory walrus]

Could use the IH Iron Father if it's cataphractii you're using it's basically just a terminator forge lord, not to much IH iconography on him iirc

[rigid narwhal]

paint them and they will automatically roll better 😄

[ivory walrus]

Only after the first game. First game after painting a unit always dies before doing anything🤣

[frosty plaza]

This is true

[narrow bramble]

My unpainted custodes baner guy that survived 2 turns of focus fire by 10 amiger disagree

With one wound remaining ofc

[rigid narwhal]

He's a custodes and couldn't tell he wasn't unpainted because they're usually all one color, anyway 😛

[near gust]

Siege of Terra Praevian ?

[narrow bramble]

If only my custodes paint scheme make me buy so much nuln oil. Going from silver to black with nuln oil was a mistake maybe

5 coats of it

[modern fractal]

What kind of praetors are y’all eying up?

[frosty plaza]

Have you seen the muscle wizard build?

[ivory walrus]

Certainly later heresy. Honestly just wanted a praevian that was more sorcerer looking than tech looking

[ivory walrus]

This is the way. Especially with how easy it is to stack: squad uses minor arcana, squad casts, squad activate achean weapons

[modern fractal]

No, and i am intrigued

[near gust]

Basically, you take the Warlord Trait that make your Praetor not wizard but angry everything someone cast a spell near him.

You put him on a bike

Minor Arcana Command Squad on bike.

And it's choom choom mobile.

[modern fractal]

I was looking at trying to do a terminator librarian or power armor, no bike

[rigid narwhal]

Try airbrushing Black Templar. Might be faster.

[narrow bramble]

Will not have the same taint

😂

[hoary marten]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7ZMdUyEDmM So these guys rated ts top tier. What are your guys thoughts? (I am prepared for salt)

[ivory walrus]

Pretty sure their loyalist list thoroughly proved they didn't have a clue what they were talking about?

[rotund helm]

Can I be even bothered to watch why they think TS are top tier

[ivory walrus]

Death Guard as bottom tier lol

[hoary marten]

They think Magnus is strong

[ivory walrus]

^ 🤣

[hoary marten]

Oh they put salamanders at the bottom

whats the consensus with sekhmet are they worth the extra points over standard?

[final niche]

Really wondering if theyve even read the rules

[rotund helm]

They don't really understand how any of the TS rules actually work. And they don't look at points at all

[hoary marten]

Seems like confusion on the pysker unit type as well

[rotund helm]

Tbf even the writers got that wrong

I really doubt each achea was meant to get a psychic discipline each

Though it does justify thier points cost. 😆

[hoary marten]

Yeah gonna need a day one faq

[ivory walrus]

On Achea to be totally fair they were 140 pts last edition too and their rules haven't changed that much

Their weapons got worse but that applies to a significant percentage of the total range

Plus they're not competing for a heavy support slot now

I'm not saying they're good, I'm more saying they've never been good

[narrow bramble]

they are totally ignorant of 30k it seams

[rotund helm]

Four big factors though.
T6 down from 7
Ws3 is terrible now
Kraks are ap3
No Reactions

[shrewd turret]

damn those castellax are pretty

[final niche]

Kind of a general question but how are vehicles shaping up? What ones catch your eye? Is there any love for taking the new plastics and just splashing them in?

[modern fractal]

LR proteus is plastic is a boon but idk how well we can take advantage of that with the shape of how our termies are

[ivory walrus]

Stick an artificer armour command squad in a LR, they look pretty good, doubly so because they get line

[tropic root]

In an attempt to inject some positivity in the discussion. What stuff is going to work well?

Is everybody planning on running Asphyx shells all over and mounting up tacticals with Apoths for some solid medium/close range firefighting squads? I can see this being a good bang for buck option run with either Corvidae or Athanaen to try and knock out sarges or panic squads with the 25% checks.

I can also see a cheap dome bro Centurion holding a line with breachers quite well offering the 4+ inv from turn 2 against shooting and boarding shields if someone wants to get close.

Its a shame Sekhmet are a shadow of their former selves, but with the addition of combi upgrades + Biomancy they will still be one of the best options we have to hit something really hard...perhaps a little too pricy, but a damage ceiling worth thinking about.

whats everybody's thoughts on running support squads with Aether fire blasters? Doesn't seem very good compared to plasma except the Str 8 rending could be great at putting some hurt on dreads/vehicles.

[pastel crest]

How come 3+ invul? The minor capped at 4+

I will choose melta support over aetherfire.

[tropic root]

ah yep its a 4+ from turn 2.

[rigid narwhal]

And Sekhmet are not any better at hitting things hard than regular Terminators outside their WS, which I'm really not sure is worth all the hoops.

I'll be using them as extra Athanaen + Telepathy casts

also, I'm definitely running aetherfire support squads. They only have to kill a couple things to make back their points.

[rotund helm]

Aetherfire is worse than plasma against regular infantry and Dreadnoughts. Its better against multiwound t4 (esp with fnp) and vehicles.
(But so are meltaguns).
Given I think we'll see terminator deathstars I think it's a worthwhile unit to run, but has hard competition with melta support squads who do a lot of the same things, just at shorter range.

[subtle fog]

Just reviewing some things, vigilator with athanaen minor arcana seems very powerful

Shellshock 2 + the modifier from athanaen plus precision shots with the rifle taking out a sgt with rending 2+ is essentially a pinning test at -4 Ld

[tropic root]

On revision Athanaen and Pyrae seem pretty decent for shooting & CC squads respectively. Getting some I10 HOW attacks in before some A-force weapons is going to add up over a game if you can pull off a couple of charges.

Are we able to cast Minor Arcana & Discipline powers in the same turn/phase?

[subtle fog]

I haven’t seen anything saying that you can’t

Most of the powers say instead of doing x you may cast this power instead

And the minor arcana mostly say at the beginning of x phase you may do this power

[tropic root]

Would that allow STR 5 HOW from bio+pyrae?

[rotund helm]

Yeah Bwoii

Even better with Rad grenades. Kinda spicy destroyer + moritat combo

Even ignoring the idea of double biomancy to get s6

[ivory walrus]

Pyrae destroyers have always been amazing

Do jump packs still grant HoW naturally?

[narrow bramble]

Damn I'll probably run one of them then

[nocturne cove]

Custom dice bag came

[rotund helm]

Legendary

Yes jump packs do come with hammer of Wrath (1) but this wouldn't stack with pyrae.
Admittedly I'm thinking of danger close teleport rather than jump packs, but that's probably safer

[ivory walrus]

Hopefully they FAQ Pyrae to stack given it used to do that

[narrow bramble]

Damn it's so cool, we need a reference now

[nocturne cove]

https://www.boardgamesolutions.co.uk/collections/dice-bags

[pastel crest]

How good do we think jav is?

[rotund helm]

Looks solid tbh. No bonus for ts but maybe a good target for divination.

This is probably a stupid idea but could you take an Allied Alpha Legion Recon Company and still use TS snipers with rewards of treason...

[pastel crest]

Is it just me, or the wording of raptora power actually prevent a deepstrike unit using it?

[tropic root]

unless deep striking is considered a 'move' id say thats the intention. Raptora is my favourite cult of the TS, but boy did they really cut off any cool applications of using it in the list except maybe Tarteros...but even then id rather just use another arcana. It sucks but I think the others just have better application so I won't be using it much.

[pastel crest]

That’s lame...

[nocturne cove]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/16/heresy-thursday-earn-the-lions-pride-with-these-dark-angels-upgrade-kits/

Only 11 more weeks at least until our helmets come out...

[narrow bramble]

tbh, our achean one is good

[nocturne cove]

If they seriously plan to do one a week

I know but new stuff is always nice

[narrow bramble]

and when i see what the DA have... i'm happy we don't have one yet

[rotund helm]

A TS bare head would be nice

[nocturne cove]

I'm more interested to see what they got planned for us

Absolutely

[narrow bramble]

just get a dude with no hairs

[nocturne cove]

A pseudo Persian egyptian type head is hard to come by

[narrow bramble]

cause we are nerd

just 3d print Ben Kingsley head, he is exactly how i picture arhiman head

[rotund helm]

Lol that's totally what I did for my epic Amon. Ofc it's too small to see.

[narrow bramble]

really need to find a good model for it

for my custodes i printed Canvil face for my valdor 😆

[rotund helm]

One of my epic custodes is Vin diesel. Don't think anyone noticed.

[barren frost]

that one custodes shield captain from FW looks like christian slater

[frosty plaza]

Deep strike yes, disembarking from a drop pod no

I've been toying with the idea of 1kSons orbital assault over the last day or so

[nocturne cove]

I got the heretic book in my hands...

[pastel crest]

Anything you think interesting we have not hear of yet ?

[nocturne cove]

It explains a lot of 30k tson legion markings and stuff that wasn't touched upon before

As well as some veteran and Sargent markings... sargents lead "Chantry's" and Lt. And Captains lead "Circles". Whilst legion Officers such as consuls and praetors can act as the command wing of one of the nine fellowships that make up the legion.

Beyond this there are also cult markings that signify ranks within each cult

There's also a new variant of armour in the book called the historical variant which is our pre magnus helmet. A subtype of mark 2 called "Stygian"

Interestingly the Achean helmets. I.e. the ones that look like Mark 3 that you can get from forge world are actually mark 2...

This helmet

The markings it goes over are:

Tactical line unit
Rapid Attack unit
Fife support unit
Legion elite marking
Legion command marking
Legion Armourial.
Khenetai Occult Marking
Destroyer Squad Marking
Ammitara Occult Marking
Veteran Armourial.

Nothing else new apart from lore stuff to do with markings

So they acknowledge Ammitara occult exist and have their own markings but they don't recognise the unit that goes with them

Unless this is a subtle nod it will be in the pdf

What's also interesting is that there is now an official destroyer squad marking for tsons

[pastel crest]

Hype! Special destroyers plz

[nocturne cove]

Maybe when they get back to making those special units they might give tsons a destroyer squad

I have to wonder if destroyers fall under order or ruin or order of the Blindness. Given Blindness usually handles all the shadey shit

[pastel crest]

I think it should be order of ruin, destroyer is definitely not subtle enough..

[odd edge]

Blindness

Inferno mentions they're in the order of blindness

[nocturne cove]

Thanks for that

[odd edge]

Is it confirmed stygian helmets are something special now and not just a helmet from stygies btw? From what I remember they didn't get much detail in Inferno beyond "this is a stygian helmet that they used cus it was available"

[nocturne cove]

No it doesn't unfortunately

Kinda hope we get to see this helmet on the tabletop. Its nice

[odd edge]

It's really nice yh
Prefer it to normal mkII

[ivory walrus]

That was true in Inferno too

[hidden quiver]

Could you share it please?

[hidden quiver]

Would you mind share alo that?😄😄

[barren frost]

oooo that destroyer squad one looks cool!

[odd edge]

Very cool

The ammitara symbol is nice too

[barren frost]

is this the type of pre-magnus helmet you were talking about Blundermore?

[nocturne cove]

Yes wheredo you get that from?

I've been looking for them for a little while now

[pastel crest]

So that eye symbol actually stands for ammitara! Damn, they didn’t specify its meaning on the transfer sheet!

[hidden quiver]

Thank you. Good that all those are in the decal sheet

[pastel crest]

I used it for my artillery and shooty dreads...

The khenetai symbol is also not specified before...

[nocturne cove]

Yeah it looks like all the transfer sheets got meanings now

The wording for everything is still the same btw

Achean force still sucks etc

[pastel crest]

As expected 😅

[barren frost]

From a circle of creators I am part of :)

[rotund helm]

@barren frost destroyer symbol is in the transfer sheet 👌

[nocturne cove]

Can I get some of them?

I've been looking for them for a while

[rotund helm]

The scarab being for khenetai I'm going to have to just ignore as I've put it on everything already

I really like the pre heresy helmet for destroyers

[ivory walrus]

According to Inferno it's also used for command iconography, and is shown on a centurion colour plate

It's termed the Achean Scarab and shows up on tac marines in inferno too

[rotund helm]

Excellent

Hey I might even have a few on my Khenetai too lol

[ivory walrus]

My charitable explanation is that it's just an example of a khenetai's shoulder and the Achean Scarab is a cult rank icon

The reality is probably closer to whoever wrote that section didn't cross check anything beyond the iconography page in Inferno

That said Inferno also labels what is clearly tartaros as cataphractii and a contemptor as tartaros

[rotund helm]

I mean I like that they assigned meaning to some of the mysterious symbols on the transfer sheet, I really do. I just wish they'd done it when they released it.

[ivory walrus]

I've just always taken them to be cult icons

[narrow bramble]

this one is on the sheet

They all are on the transfer sheet :)

I'd guess we'll get a rerelease of the Amitara occult at a point

With proper models

[rotund helm]

It's not like they wear mk6 armour either

[narrow bramble]

even with mk6 it would be fine to me

but legion specific unit/upgrade are FW resin anyway

so it'll maybe not be mk6 (even if an armour made for stealth/agility is perfect for a sniper squad)

[odd edge]

Didn't they use scout armour in 1e instead of power armour anyway?

[narrow bramble]

oh i'll check

never used them in 1e

[odd edge]

Neither did I, might be misremembered

But it would be cool to get a unique scout armour sculpt
Power armour is so last millennium

[rotund helm]

Yeah it was scout armour, and yeah unique sculpts would be amazing

[narrow bramble]

can confirm they used recon armor

damn their psychic power would be insane in v2

[pastel crest]

A good looking scout armour unit is a challenge for nowaday FW...

[odd edge]

Have forge world ever even made a scout armour unit

[narrow bramble]

nop

but they can't do worth than the 40k model

[odd edge]

If they manage to make worse scouts than the 40k model I'd be so impressed I'd buy it anyway

They clearly put effort into a model that bad

[tired comet]

Do you by chance know how these red ones look on black?

[narrow bramble]

they are gold not red =p

just a shit light reflection

[rotund helm]

Yeah. You do get a single red one on the burning of prosporo sheet.

[narrow bramble]

tbh i find the idea of a SINGLE red one funny

[tired comet]

Wait no I've been doing a white shoulder pad, and currently all my scarabs are white so IDK what things will look like on it

[rotund helm]

Gold on white is ok

[narrow bramble]

gold on cream

ftw

hmmm for ts jetbike what should i use? Plasma cannon? the TS plasma? anything else?

[coarse hill]

melta imo

easier to get close

[narrow bramble]

hmmm so it's anti tank

if i go for 3 vindicator i may not need extra anti tank

=p

[narrow bramble]

black pad on khenetai?

interesting

(and look cool)

[pastel crest]

Yeah because there is a black pad with anubis head in inferno, so I went that way.

[tired comet]

Looks good to me. Might be highlighted by the camera, but I'd consider going over the whole pad with a gloss or matte depending on what effect you want. Helps hide the edges of the decal. Though being gold, maybe you don't want to to keep the gloss..

[pastel crest]

Yeah definitely, just not familiar with using gloss varnish yet.

[modern fractal]

Has anyone ever done a Tsons Recon Squad? @here

[odd edge]

Not mine but @fullcirclehobby on insta did a nice one

[frosty plaza]

Lowkey I think the lack of pauldrons is a really good look

[odd edge]

It really is on a recon squad ngl

Especially with the black arms

[rigid narwhal]

you gotta line em up right, though, else they look derpy

[pastel crest]

Yeah. A bit

[odd edge]

Yeah, lining them up isn't the hardest thing in the world at least

All of that guys thousand sons stuff is really impressive tbh, worth a look if you've not checked him out already

[barren frost]

wow, that looks absolutely fantastic

so are they standard mk4 arms without shoulder pads?

[pastel crest]

No, primaris marine arms.

[barren frost]

ooo, those I have

[rotund helm]

Rundown of Sekhmet in 2.0

[pastel crest]

10 cata only 325, that’s savage...

[narrow bramble]

Ok I'll 100% steal that

These recon are just too cool

[nocturne cove]

https://codewalrus.gumroad.com/l/LiberPanoptica

Fan rules for Ammitara are in here btw

Also been putting the red down on the squad finally

[narrow bramble]

Damn look fine, hope I'll finish my veteran soon

[rotund helm]

Hmm ammitara. Idk. Cool enough rules, but do they really compare to sniper vets? If they had ld9 maybe but at ld8 you're going to kill yourself trying to cast that power so often.

Skirmish is a good rule though. Yeah I like them.

[odd edge]

I'll probably take a squad once I've got a way to get a nice recon armour set for them
I'm a sucker for the concept of them though

[barren frost]

These look great. That reminds me that I need to make the trim on my printed shoulders way thicker. The real deal seem to be way deeper.

[odd edge]

lovely looking red

[nocturne cove]

What load out works well for a kratos for us

[rotund helm]

I can't think of any particular difference for TS. Just build to compensate for list deficiencies.

That said, if I had one, I'd try a Force dome parking lot build, do something with a bit of range.

Ofc you can build it to have the turret weapon swappable.

[nocturne cove]

I will probably build it to magnetise all options

[narrow bramble]

damn the spartan take forever to build

the contemptor also manage to be longer to build than the resin one (but less anoying)

[near gust]

So apparently as per the wording

Command Squad can't take Minor Cult Arcana ?

[pastel crest]

What, why? Because no character?

[near gust]

Yep !

[pastel crest]

I, I think you are right...but this is a bit stupid

[rotund helm]

Oh ffs

I mean, you'll usually add a character so it's OK, but still.

[frosty plaza]

I’ve been building mine today too, and this is spot on

[narrow bramble]

Hard pose to make

[frosty plaza]

(Small base because proper one is waiting for terrain paint to set)

[rotund helm]

Very cool. Where's the sword from?

[frosty plaza]

Good question

[odd edge]

Lovely conversion for it

[narrow bramble]

magnus

[odd edge]

Sword looks a bit like the smaller blade from 40k Magnus belt

[narrow bramble]

the big knife

[frosty plaza]

That's it

[rotund helm]

Hmmm how hard is that to get I wonder.r

[frosty plaza]

It's not the sword in his hand as my 40k magnus is equipped with his sword

[odd edge]

I was planning a similar conversion with the same blade at some point lmao

Glad it looks good definitely gonna do it if I ever find the thing now

I used his big blade to make an arm blade similar to the osiron on a leviathan to use as a siege claw

[ivory walrus]

The exalted sorcerer kit fits perfectly on the Mk VI for making fancy sergeants

[rotund helm]

Sweet

I need to pick that up then...

[odd edge]

definitely picking that up

[rotund helm]

Damn I'm drunker than I thought, bought it already

[odd edge]

know that feeling

[barren frost]

Looks lovely. I haven't played 30k yet but just pottered around in the battlescribe for 1.0. Are your sgts having staves an aesthetic thing or can you actually upgrade them to have a staff?

[odd edge]

i think you would probably proxy it as a power maul

(or do they get achean force staves in 2.0?)

[frosty plaza]

No sadly not

Only axes maces or swords

On that note did we ever come to a conclusion on which weapon loadout was best on sekhmet?

I was thinking axe on the sergeant and maces on everyone else

[odd edge]

arent force staves the equivalent of force mauls anyway though?

I swear the force stave just had power maul stats but as a force weapon

[narrow bramble]

damn finally finished my list (1500 pts for now)

[umbral quartz]

What's the list?

[rotund helm]

@odd edge the force staff is in the new book. S+1 ap 3 and reach which is plus one initiative. But they didn't include an achean version, which is just dumb imo.

[pastel crest]

😅

[ivory walrus]

Cheers, yeah it's just going to be an achean maul. I'd run it as an achean stave but as others said we didn't get one for some reason

[frosty plaza]

Beginning of muscle wizard’s goon squad

[narrow bramble]

Cataphractii praetor w/combi melta + paragon blade + psyker
Cataphracti command squad (4 chosen) w/combi melta + thunder hammer
Primus Medicae w/combi melta + thunder hammer + psyker

2x20 dudes tac squad (aug scanner or vox)

2 apothecary

1 contemptor w/melta + havoc launcher

Vindicator laser destroyer w/dozer blade

I aim to test the command squad and the vindicator with the list

[tough wigeon]

it was screwed over yes. It is a very silly worded rule imo

[tough wigeon]

maybe new models in future who knows

[icy echo]

I'm sure this discussion has been had - what's the general thoughts on Aether-fire? Breaching on Plasma is 4+ as opposed to the 6+ Rending, but Rending also affects vehicles and the Achean Force can give that important S8

They seem pretty equivalent overall?

[coarse hill]

Think it's better Vs termies and vehicles worse Vs the rest iirc

[pastel crest]

Worse than melta. The best way to use them I think is moritat with aetherfire pointing at vehicle

[coarse hill]

Longer range though

[pastel crest]

Lower effectiveness though. If a kit-up meq can not win back their points in one-two turn they are pretty much wasted.

[rotund helm]

It's better than plasma against multiwound t4 and vehicles. It's better than melta against light infantry (and slightly longer range.)
The fact it doesn't get hot is a big bonus, it's also assault which is nice.
Unfortunately it's worse against contemptors than both melta and plasma, and contemptors are a really big issue.

[tough wigeon]

i think it is generally better against most things

as no gets hot

and rending is a little better than breaching

plus the force is good

[karmic bay]

What are Castellax-Achaean Battle Automata for, besides looking cool?

[tough wigeon]

with the one row they can absorb perils which is pretty useful

[karmic bay]

So…just passing off Perils in that one RoW? That’s disappointing. They’re such a great looking model.

[pastel crest]

Their largest problem is dread are now too good...

Which makes automata seems unworthy

[karmic bay]

I’ve been trying to pick a legion. I like how Thousand Sons look, but their units are just so disappointing - particularly Castellax-Achaean and the Sekhmet

[rotund helm]

I can't love them. With Line, and a praevian, they could be a passable defending/counter assault unit, but they are so many points.
There is the cheese that as written they get a psychic discipline each. I mean i won't be trying that one out.

[rotund helm]

Sekhmet are.. OK. Khenetai are good, and TS Consuls are top of the line.

[coarse hill]

dreads with psychic powers are also pretty cool

[tough wigeon]

they extend range of powers too which is useful

[pastel crest]

Welcome to messy 2.0 Tson rule

[tough wigeon]

i feel they are very meh

[tropic root]

I feel like we have some interesting flexibility and utility with the powers...but I'll admit I'm just concerned other legions hammer to face style rules will just make anything fancy we can do obsolete.

[karmic bay]

That's one of my concerns. Thousand Sons have some neat abilities, but other legions seen to do just as much with way less effort

What do people think of Thousand Sons (and, in particular, Castellax-Achaean Battle Automata and Sekhmet Terminators) in low point games? At, for example, 1k-1.5k points

[narrow bramble]

damn i just checked the rule for psyker:

A command squad have no character so it don't gain access to an arcana ... BUT it still give the squad psyker

A command squad have therefore a free discipline as it's a psyker unit without an arcana

so atm command squad are... broken for us

[pastel crest]

No, if you gain psyker through la tson, you won’t have free discipline as long as the unit is infantry

[narrow bramble]

you will have if you are not a character

character gain arcana
Indep gain arcana + power (paid)

But without a character you just have... a free power

[pastel crest]

No, the LA particularly says infantry & cavalry unit can not have free power even if they gain psyker subtype.

[narrow bramble]

LA?

[pastel crest]

Legion Astarte (Thousand Sons)

[narrow bramble]

where?

[narrow bramble]

so you have in a side: you gain the trait but it don't add the disc
And the main rule saying "if you are a psyker go get a discipline"

the faq is gonna be massive

[odd edge]

fairly sure this specifying that they're not granted a discipline overrides the main rulebook

[narrow bramble]

they really need to give character to the baneer dude

would be so much simpler

[pastel crest]

Nevertheless we really need a faq at moment.

[odd edge]

may as well give us the Liber FAQ book

[pastel crest]

And maybe legion specific power
God, sw, ws and even nl characters powers are so good...

[odd edge]

yeah having more psykers is nice but better psykers is also fun
our praetors have the same casting potential as other HQs now right? just with better leadership so better odds of it going off

[pastel crest]

Yeah, less able than a psyker chaplain

[tough wigeon]

yeah would love if consuls could take force weapons too or achean force

silly they cannot

command squads able to buy discipline would be great also

i do wonder if eventually they will do codex's for the various legions

maybe idk

i also wonder if in future there will be more psychic powers. The current ones seem a little meh in many ways

[odd edge]

Making our praetors be better psykers in some way would be good to represent the legion commanders having got to the most advanced levels of their cult
Like they were in 1e by being able to get ML3

[tough wigeon]

yeah like maybe praetors get the old ignore perils gear. The scroll thing

idk tho.

i miss 1e already in that respect aha

i think powers are more reliable to cast

but in output

all the powers are meh

[odd edge]

I do prefer this psychic system definitely

But it doesn't lend itself too well to the thousand sons as a psychic legion

[tough wigeon]

i agree there. I always prefered it based on leadership too

[odd edge]

Definitely
And not having to roll for your powers is very much welcome

[tough wigeon]

the problem is also is when there are lots of anti-psyker stuff
being a psyker actually needs to be good

and the minor arcana things are very ... eh

most of the actual discipline powers are eh

raptora is biggest letdown of arcana power imo

[odd edge]

yeah isnt raptora just the same as what they had in 1e except instead of just having it they need to make a psychic check for it

[tough wigeon]

not only is major nerf in it can only go to 4+ (meaning cataphracti can never be raptora,((they can but why would you)) shame as great part in book with that)

but the trigger conditions are too specific to be of use in many situations

[tough wigeon]

no no

you have to end movement phase in a certain distance of an enemy model

and then you can cast power

[odd edge]

yknow i never liked phosis tkar all that much so i dont mind his cult getting nerfed but also wtf why would that ever be useful
surely if you're taking a power to activate when you're close to the enemy you'd just take an assault based arcana like pyrae

like raptora would at least be handy for surviving a footslog across the table without the distance condition

[tropic root]

Somebody reaaaally didn't like Sekhmeta so they smothered raptora pretty hard.

[odd edge]

i guess it would be ok on some tartaros termies to give them cataphractii-level saves but even then its only gonna be in the first round of combat cus it activates when they're chosen to move or run

[tough wigeon]

okay so to trigger you have to order a unit to make a move or run and have it end within 12" of enemy unit and then if you pass test you get +1 inv that lasts until beginning of your next turn and cant go beyond 4+

so yeah...
its weirdly specific and combats after those first player turns (1 game turn) no added inv save for you

imo pyrae is best cult as is

all models in unit get +2 attacks on charge

downside is they count as flame attacks

and at AP -

corvidae and athanaen are useful in certain situations

[tropic root]

I think those are likely to be the "not sure so just stick that on" option. particularly Athanaen.

[lost estuary]

Khenetai, good? I struggle to find a use for them

[ivory walrus]

The wording on Raptora is a bit off too. It's cast before you move but you must end that move within 12" of am enemy unit. What's super unclear; if you attempt to manifest and fail the check, do you still have to finish a move within 12" on an enemy?

Also what happens if you cast it successfully, you go to.move within 12" of an enemy and they use the reaction to move away, taking them outside of 12"?

[ivory walrus]

They're better than Sehkmet, they're very expensive melee only vets, but assuming that mindsong can be cast inside a transport; they have an amazing output. Really they should've got 2+ save for their cost and swords a still pretty underwhelming

[coarse hill]

Pavoni is the best imo, mobility wins games

[lost estuary]

I think 3+ save is fine if they all had ap2 or increased ap with mindsong

that'll make them true glass cannons

[rotund helm]

I wish they could increase initiative, so avoid damage
I'm thinking apothecary and techmarine, for 2+ inclusion, coupled with someone else with telepathy (to disable overwatch) in a land raider. They should be able to punch hard, then keep going.. is the theory..

[lost estuary]

I think we have plenty of tools to deal with 3+ saves I'm looking for a unit to deal with 2+ t5 terminator blobs

its such a shame the robots lost their power claws with AP2

[ivory walrus]

That's an issue most armies have now. Terminators are so survivable. My plan is a unit of multi melta jet bikes

[narrow bramble]

Tbh terminator not being easy af to remove from the table is good for the game

[lost estuary]

I was thinking biomancy sekmet with achea force axes