#Thousand sons - 2.0 theorycrafting

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

coarse hill
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So in 1.0 I played vet spam with ahriman for scout on their rhinos. I know vets lost rending at the end of 1.0 but now they look to be 2w 2a marines with half the firepower of tacs for the points due to half the bodies. Does something at all similar to my old core have any legs at all or is it a dumpster fire?

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<@&877303657966735367>

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Thousand sons - Ahri pride of the legion - does it still work in 2.0?

shrewd turret
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I do agree with you that at least on the surface, vets seem less desirable. Plasmavets were something that I ran quite a bit, but there's little appeal for those either. And vets and tacs have the same psychic upgrades now

nocturne cove
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Summon the Magisterial Temples!

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Hrmm. I think ultimately the thing with veterans was they were too good at being a generalist unit and made other units worse so they split out some of their ability to other units.

I guess it depends what you need from them.

Seekers apparently are pretty cool

keen jackal
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I think there's some merit to the corvidae ability with special weapon units. Forcing saves on a unit sergeant or special weapon or something can swing a fight, especially if you're dumping plasma shots into them. Seekers or legion support squads might be better for that role now, and khenatai have the melee side down.

Honestly I'm a bit miffed that the minor arcana powers were nerfed so heavily from the playtest document ones. I was excited we finally got TH/SS equivalent terminators with raptora cataphractii sekhmet.

coarse hill
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Damn thanks for the rapid responses all haha

frosty plaza
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3++ sekhmet were the bane of last edition though

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People hated them for a good reason

nocturne cove
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I think you could still make vets work but the tactics might have to change a bit. But the inclusion of Æther weaponry does open a new path to ranged rending which is more difficult to come by in this edition

coarse hill
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I totally get we needed a nerf and think vets were fine without rending, I pivoted to mass combi

shrewd turret
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I'm also looking at both divination and the corvidae ability with ID weapons, we suddenly might be quite proficient at sniping

frosty plaza
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Overall the 1kSons list has gotten weaker than last edition, but I think that's fair given that they were head and shoulders baove the rest before

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I'm excited for pavoni assault marines running Axis of dissolution

shrewd turret
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but weirdly that also negates the need for actual weapons with the "sniper" rule

frosty plaza
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15" movement, big charge bonus, rumble in at S/T5

coarse hill
shrewd turret
nocturne cove
frosty plaza
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Plus force mauls are now S+2 AP3, and you can take 4 of them in an assault marine squad, and achaen force means you don't perils for failing to activate them

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Basically 5pts to get all your attacks at S8 AP3

coarse hill
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For covidae you want MSU with a small number of special weapon shots per squad right

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And you can activate the precision on all your corvidae?

shrewd turret
frosty plaza
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But this is more just on squads of assaults rather than termies

near gust
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Veterans are Relentless.

A Squad of 100 with Nemesis Botler are 305pts with a huge range of action. A fully kited squad with swords is 340 iirc.

frosty plaza
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Designed for battering infantry like a chip shop sausage

coarse hill
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Sekhmet don't really look desirable to me tbh

frosty plaza
near gust
coarse hill
frosty plaza
shrewd turret
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could somebody go over how a unit of assault marines can swap to Achae weapons?

near gust
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Nope, can't Asphyx it. I need to check either the Corvidae Arcana.

On the other hand, Rotorcannons Athanean Support squads seem gross.

frosty plaza
shrewd turret
coarse hill
frosty plaza
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Oh well

shrewd turret
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character unit sub-type sounds like sergeant only to me, or do I misunderstand something

frosty plaza
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No that's true

coarse hill
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Though isn't the wording to replace rotors with asphyx broken as I doesn't mention rotors?

near gust
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Asphyx is something we won't see a lot anymore tbh.

shrewd turret
frosty plaza
near gust
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Or "maybe" on Tactical ? (can Tactical took Asphyx ? I know IW Tactical can take Shrapnels but AL Tactical can't take Banestrike)

shrewd turret
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I'm not allowed to post the imgur rules here right? PM if you want the link

coarse hill
nocturne cove
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If you want a really dumb idea for an army here's one me Otter games came up with yesterday.

It's called Muscle wizard. Or The Angriest thousand son in the universe.

Basically using the new warlord trait that disallows your warlord from using psyker powers instead they gain adamantine will and every time a friend or foe casts a psyker power near them they gain rage. 2 rage on the first go, 1 rage after that to a max of 4 rage.

This turns your warlord into a 18 wheeler truck.

You then stick him with a jump pack and a retinue with lightning claws.

You then stick a librarian in there with biomancy and Pyrae.

Ultimately muscle wizard fully buffed with a paragon blade does 9 attacks at S6, AP 2, Murderous 5, WS 6, Toughness 5, 2+, 4++(3++)

Everyone gets Hammer of Wrath(2), +1S and +1T

on top of that his retinue does 44 Lightning Claws at S5, Shred, Rend 6, and 5 attacks at S9, AP 3, Rend 6

Praetor- 160
-Paragon Blade (Master-Crafted)
-Jump Pack
-ANGRY
Librarian- 140
-Psychic Hood
-Jump Pack
-Pyrae, Biomancy
Command Squad- 368
8x Chosen
-2x LC, Jump Pack
1x Standard Bearer
-1x LC, Jump Pack

ANGRY BLENDER: 668 Points

near gust
nocturne cove
near gust
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If he isn't Psyker, the Warlord can't have a Minor Arcana and does not benefit of Minor Arcana, right ?

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On the other hand, does Minor Arcana triggers the "Angry" WLT ?

frosty plaza
shrewd turret
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How do we feel about MSU Multimelta Jetbike Sky Seeker with Corvidae?

frosty plaza
frosty plaza
coarse hill
near gust
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Multiple small units.

hearty basin
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something about Praetor ANGRY really sings to me for TSons

shrewd turret
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minimal size unit, so a unit of 3, which is the smallest you can go

nocturne cove
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Any psyker check near him pisses angry muscle wizard off. Friend or foe

frosty plaza
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It's one hell of a warlord trait

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works nicely on a legion champ for a more budget build

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As he gets a free paragon blade and WS6

coarse hill
near gust
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For a 1000-1250pts Zone Mortalis it seems gross.

near gust
shrewd turret
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for corvidae "first wound scored" is before saves right?

near gust
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I understand it like that.

nocturne cove
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Look I'm not saying you should really attempt angry blender all the time but if you have a space wolf player that keeps on sending mass waves of chumps towards you trying to get into close combat or an imperial fist doing the warder strat it might be funny once to turn the entire game on its head by turning tsons into a close combat monster force

coarse hill
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I feel like with vets you kinda wanna be charging with them to make the most of the better combat statline is the issue

nocturne cove
shrewd turret
near gust
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Nemesis Bolter allows you to, also, focus a character in a squad. A 79" threat range able to focus an Apothecary or something like that.

@coarse hill A full squad with Nemesis + Power Swords + Artificer Armor are like 410pts.

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Which is... I don't know. Over-paid imo.

coarse hill
frosty plaza
coarse hill
nocturne cove
shrewd turret
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I think I prefer the Divination power to the Nemesis bolter. Although you could also run both.....

nocturne cove
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Strength 4, x2, +1 for biomancy

frosty plaza
shrewd turret
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1 Nemesis squad and then one regular with Divination to screw up all character synergies

near gust
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With Chosen Warrior, a squad of 5 can really soak up a fighty character for a "long" time.

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In the instance of a "melee" veterans, wouldn't we prefere Command Squad though ?

coarse hill
nocturne cove
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The main issue with the thousand sons army now is that our cult powers are all tied to the character. I.e. the Sgt leader.

So snipers and other precision weapons are a huge issue for us. No other legion can you literally shoot out their legion traits with a well placed sniper shot.

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So yeah keep that in mind whilst playing

near gust
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It is tied to the character ? I thought it required a Character but then the bonus was on a the squad

keen jackal
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I'm coming over from 40k so explain this to me for the corvidae arcana: you get to force your opponent to take the first save on a model of your choosing instead of your opponent's. Is the same rule from 40k in 30k where you have to keep taking saves on the same guy until he fails? Or are you only getting one save on one guy? Also are you forced to slow roll your wound rolls individually for the power or can you fast roll say shots with aether fire weapons to try and put a rending shot on a specific model?

near gust
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So on top of that, TS are "nerfed" on the "Artificer Armour Sgt Tanking all the AP3 hits"

nocturne cove
near gust
shrewd turret
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But I think str 8 (for ID) is probably the way to go with corvidae

frosty plaza
nocturne cove
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Supposedly heavy volkite squad's are meant to be pretty good

keen jackal
near gust
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I will salt a bit but, I don't understand how the play test went.

Some rules/units are grossly overpowered while other feels like written by a 8yo because "we had to be quick so we just slaughter the rules and the unit"

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Thousand Sons have all some warp connexion. The "Sgt only" rules is too much 40k for the Heresy era as Rubicon hadn't pass yet.

nocturne cove
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The main issue is there's talk of a day one dlc patch already... so this could all change again come launch

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In the form of an FAQ errata

near gust
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Already ?

shrewd turret
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if it's day 1 instead of day 30, I'd be fine with that

near gust
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Gosh... 55€ a book, and still it is already outated...

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I don't remember Forge World HH books being that bedly written.

Except for V1 TSons I mean :p

shrewd turret
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Any ideas on how to make a jetbike command squad work for TS?

frosty plaza
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V1 Talons were so bad they did the list again in the next book lmao

near gust
coarse hill
near gust
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By the way, the leaks forgot to put the TSons RoW ?

I'd like to see if Axis of Dissolution became a good alternative to GotCK.

shrewd turret
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How good is precision strikes in the fight phase? Havent ever seen that in HH before

near gust
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OH GOD ! Full Breacher Axis with Asphyx Shells maybe something 😮

coarse hill
coarse hill
near gust
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Breachers are tanky, Asphyx Shells adds a good amount of killiness, sprinkle some Apothecary to have a double "Minor Arcana" units.

shrewd turret
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now to find which leak I saw it in 😛

coarse hill
near gust
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BS5 "regular" marines ?

near gust
keen jackal
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Is there a reason Ahriman has force on his axe and not achean force? You'd think the biggest named marine in the legion would have the same rules as the rest of his legion

near gust
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Because GW Syndrom made Named Characters impossible to dodge while building a list so strong they are. That's why I hate 40k.

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They are better than a Generic Character and cheaper.

coarse hill
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Does ahrimans redeploy work after it before you know who is going first?

delicate heath
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How do you guys equip contemptors? I love them and I have several already with plans for more, and a variety of weapons, but they have so many weapon loadouts I never know which works well

near gust
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Gravis Lascan (except if it lost Sunder as I heard), Inbuilt Grav gun and Gravis Chainfist. Gonna open some Spartans along the way :p

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215pts seems given for such a monster that can literally wreck anything it impacts.

frosty plaza
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If you take Raptora on breachers do they not get a 4++?

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That sounds spicy

near gust
frosty plaza
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I thought breacher shields are 5++ but you can't get extra attacks

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So with raptora can't you buff that?

near gust
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Raptora doesn't give +1 invul anymore

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OH MY BAD, it does.

frosty plaza
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Yes it does?

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Caps at 4++ so no good on sekhmet tho

near gust
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So yeah, 4++ Breachers is available.

Meaning you can have a Breach Sarg with Corvidae for Precision Shot and a Raptora Apothecary for 4++

frosty plaza
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It's a shame dreadclaws aren't assault vehicles

near gust
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Some units are dead on arrival.

frosty plaza
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Because 1kSons orbital assault would be lots of fun

coarse hill
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Thousand sons - 2.0 theorycrafting

frosty plaza
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Deep within the Pyramid of Photep, the magisters whispered of the future...

frosty plaza
near gust
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Honestly, with the nerf of the Alpha Legion Hydran Excursor WLT, my most sad thing is that I won't be able to play Armthep, my Athanean Praetor, as a TS who went undercover inside AL by writing their minds. Or maybe he was AL all along. I don't remember what we are talking about :p

near gust
frosty plaza
near gust
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Oh. Thunder Hammers it is then ?

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T5, 2++ Save, some Combat shield for sweet sweet invul. White Scars style.

frosty plaza
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Yeah I'd say shields and claws for shredding infantry with rending, or hammers if you want to wreck face but fight last

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Lmao "any model in the unit may take a nuncio vox"

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1kSons Pirate Radio deathstar incoming

shrewd turret
nocturne cove
frosty plaza
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But you can't perils if you fail to get Achaen force

nocturne cove
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Indeed

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But x2 strength ap 2 is also very good

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Master crafted as well and reach 1

near gust
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I think the fact that Kenethai got Achean force make them useless.

nocturne cove
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So he's initiative 6

near gust
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AP3, no way to oneshot a termis...

coarse hill
nocturne cove
shrewd turret
near gust
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Rending 6+ on such an expensive unit is a joke I think.

shrewd turret
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khenetai were theoretical gods before anyway, in practice it was super hard to make work in 1.0

nocturne cove
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They're only 5 points more than a veteran squad kitted out the same way and come with mindsong blades and force achean swords

near gust
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But can't chose the Achean Weapons.

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That would have make them pretty playable.

coarse hill
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Are they 2w as well?

keen jackal
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I want to like khenatai more, but you can't cast mind song if they're accompanied by anyone

coarse hill
keen jackal
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Which is exactly how you'd run them. A brick in a spartan or something.

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So they're kind of dead now. Unfortunate, I really liked them. Back onto the shelf I guess

nocturne cove
near gust
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I say it again : Some rules have a design flaw. Like they were broken during playtest, but they didn't have time to correctly correct them.

nocturne cove
near gust
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No, but Axes could be.

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I mean, Axes have blades :p

keen jackal
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Khopesh blades are like axe-swords anyways, whatever works best for you

frosty plaza
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Blades sing, axes smile

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Axe khenetai would suck though because they only have a 3+ save and would likely get cut down by most things before getting to fight

near gust
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Mindsong could have made them always strike at Init.

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But I digress, it's not the case.

keen jackal
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Would the khenatai upgrade kit look good with the mkvi bodies or should I stick with mkiv

near gust
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Good wit MkVI.

frosty plaza
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Yeah should be fine with either

near gust
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Quick question : On the highest level of ally (Sword Brothers IIRC), you can put character of one alliance into the unit of the other, right ?

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Would a x legion Librarian joining a TS unit benefit from the Legiones Astartes through the "Every psyker in the unit" ?

coarse hill
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P sure we have no sword bros

frosty plaza
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Yeah we have none

shrewd turret
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What's your plan on the weapons for sergeants? The Achaean maul actually looks interesting now, although no ap 2 always sucks

near gust
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Good ol' power fist ?

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I'd try to keep the possibility of perils as low as possible. But that's how I always runned TS so...

coarse hill
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So cult wise the best seems to be:
Raptora: stuff with a 5++ already ie breachers, tartaros termites, chars
Athanean: Stuff with pinning shots and any other LD penalties like rotor supports
Pyrae: melee stuff without HoW already, large unit sizes better
Corvidae: MSU strong shooting with char 1-shot potential
Pavoni: fast movers, like assault marines probably want this, vets with relentless and short range guns

That sound accurate?

delicate heath
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The achaean maul is very tempting to me

frosty plaza
near gust
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@coarse hill "Raptora: Rotorcannons support squad"

coarse hill
near gust
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God you right

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And Pavoni can also be amazing for Vets Aswell with a short ranged Heavy weapons (thanks to Relentless)

coarse hill
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Is there anything other than breachers with 5++?

near gust
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Tartaros Termies.

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Regular Centurions.

coarse hill
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I can't see what pyrae would be good on really.. maybe tacs?

near gust
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Chains Bayonets Axis of Dissolution Pyrae can be gross.

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Have the possibility* to be. Add in a Chaplain (if he remains as in the Leaks) and you have a big blob of possible death.

near gust
rigid narwhal
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I'm using Pavoni on an Aetherfire Blaster Support squad, at the moment.

coarse hill
rigid narwhal
near gust
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What ?

rigid narwhal
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Athanaen and Telepathy on an Osiron Magus.

near gust
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Isn't Arcana on self ? And TSons are not tied to have the Discipline of their Minor Arcana anymore, do they ?

rigid narwhal
near gust
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Kit the Osiron to be melee oriented, problem solved. Like Aether-fire sutff, no ?

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Or Dual Achean 😮

rigid narwhal
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If you're already that close, Athanaen and Telepathy are still better, since you can turn off reactions on the things you're trying to melee, and pin one of them.

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Now that they have a Toughness value, it shouldn't be charging into Terminators or anything that will live long enough for it to need a 4++ in CC.

near gust
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I think Telepathy is over rated but, eh, maybe I'm wrong.

rigid narwhal
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What are you going to do, Biomancy your Magus?

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There's an argument for giving it Divination on a really shooty Osiron, but the dang thing is still 275+ points.

near gust
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If I went for an Magnus, it would be Divination indeed.

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Old Contemptor mortis style with dual lascan or something like that.

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"You there, nice character. Die"

rigid narwhal
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still...is it killing 275 points worth of stuff?

near gust
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It just have to snipe a Praetor and it is already worth half the point back.

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Over the course of the game, if it snipes a Telekinesic Librarian, one or two sergents/apothecary out of their 2+, I would say it is already worth it.

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And that's almost only with the Minor Arcana.

rigid narwhal
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So you're shooting an Apoth in...let's say a tac squad.

near gust
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With Diviner's Dart you have a very good anti characters unit.

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Except if I did not read Psychic weapon.

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If they forbid you to shoot your regular weapons, then yeah, Divination isn't good even on a Shooty dread

rigid narwhal
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The Apoth does have a 4+++ for trying to snipe him out of a squad on an objective.

near gust
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Nvm.

coarse hill
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Is that look out sir?

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Not an actual fnp

near gust
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Psychic disciplines are almost bad for TSons anyway.

Being any other legion with only 1 librarian is better for those

rigid narwhal
near gust
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I mean in which world does SW, WS and WB got a specific Discipline and TSons nothing.

rigid narwhal
coarse hill
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Okay guys what's the best way to make the most of ahriman

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I also can't work ot if his redeploy triggers when you know who's going first?

near gust
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You can deploy super agressively, like for an Alpha Strike or something.

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And if you are not first, hide behind LoS blockers.

rigid narwhal
coarse hill
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That's significantly less powerful then

rigid narwhal
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He's a good support character for something shooty.

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He has all the precision shots stuff, and a heal.

nocturne cove
near gust
coarse hill
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If Ahri joins a unit can it get corvidae bonus as well as its own?

near gust
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Yes.

rigid narwhal
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Yes.

near gust
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As long you pass the PC.

coarse hill
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Ah nice

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Didn't realise that

rigid narwhal
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Same for every other squad an IC joins

near gust
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That's why Apothecary "spam" may be a thing in TS.

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To get double Arcana.

coarse hill
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Pavoni chars giving everything+3" move

near gust
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Pavoni Apothecary everywhere.

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"Faster than White Scars"

nocturne cove
rigid narwhal
near gust
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Don't get to cocky guys. Day 1 FAQ will nerf that and give free of check Cult Arcana to Ultramarine Suzerains.

nocturne cove
rigid narwhal
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Are Suzies Fearless?

near gust
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Nah.

nocturne cove
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I would be surprised. Not much is fearless because it makes leadership mechanics pointless if too much is

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The way tsons are currently it seems they're going to be a very convoluted combination army with a lot of interlocking parts working together in order to strengthen the whole...

rigid narwhal
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I also don't think we can afford to by shy about casting

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also, slight point of order, you can't double gun an Osiron.

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So for character sniping I'm probably just taking Volcons and having something cast Divination on them.

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Oh wait, nevermind. Divination can go on any friendly unit. I'm just casting that on my Laser Vindicator 😄

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There's some potential in a list with a lot of Divination and Lascannons or similar weapons

nocturne cove
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At least from the 1.0 rules I recall

rigid narwhal
nocturne cove
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Yeah, so it's better to either go full melee of infantry support

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Which I mean... the force sword is pretty scary so it's not like the osiron will be out of it's element

rigid narwhal
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I'm leaning Telepathy and Aetherfire for that.

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My current Elites section is looking something like 1-2 Osirons, a couple Castellax, and my Apoths.

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You can have the Castellax stand near someone using the bubble

hoary marten
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The khenetai seem like a hard unit to use since you cant attach a character( unless you dont want the unique power) and the power is at the start of the turn so you can't use when getting out of a transport

nocturne cove
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If the osirion could double gun he could function as a telekinetic dome

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I honestly think kenetai will get a buff or an FAQ at some point because the entire unit just sort of doesn't synergise in an army that is written to wholly depend on synergies to make up for short falls.

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@hoary marten

hoary marten
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Hopefully still gonna run, maybe have a squad next to them that buffs them

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Wait cant a character join the unit after they cast their power

rigid narwhal
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sure, but they have to be walking around for that

hoary marten
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Oh yeah they cant leave a unit then join a new unit in the same turn

rigid narwhal
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So you're gonna have a pricey melee unit and a character just derping around for almost a whole turn

hoary marten
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Only one unit per transport?

rigid narwhal
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Nope. Up to capacity

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Can't cast while inside the box tho

hoary marten
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Well at least I can just send them into my friends gal vorbak without much support

prime eagle
nocturne cove
prime eagle
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all depends on disciplines. i doubt they will be as good as once before

near gust
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From the leaks, Disciplines are almost bad for a Psyker heavy legion.

hoary marten
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biomancy can give sekhmet strength 8 with force axes

prime eagle
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somehow they decided its not ok for us to have 3++ terminators with WS4, and they go on and give 3++ to some legions 😄 wtf

prime eagle
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we lost force weapons and got some crapy buffs

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and in leags they said force will just be x2 strainght

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strenght*

hoary marten
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if we had normal force we would roll for every force weapon

prime eagle
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but we do have force now

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how is that different

hoary marten
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we have baby force which you cast and all forces weapon increase

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normal force you do for each weapon

prime eagle
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so magnus has force , the real force?

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behind gun and spear

shrewd turret
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Now that praetors actually cant get better psychic than normal characters, what HQ characters is everybody looking at?

hoary marten
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magnus got normal force

rigid narwhal
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Fun fact...this gives our 'plasma' ID against normal marines.

hoary marten
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yep with rending 6+

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give them corvidae and try and snipe some characters

prime eagle
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so how does psychic powers are activated and how many per turn per character

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is it on per phase (assault, shoting, charge, move)

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its all unclear, since before it was much simpler and streight forward

rigid narwhal
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You can use everything you have whenever it tells you it can be used.

coarse hill
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Does that include multiple casts of the same power from different psykers? Haven't read the full Psy rules yet

rigid narwhal
hoary marten
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so if you had a pysker that had pyromancy and telekinesis you can cast both powers

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but if you had 2 that said instead of shooting you can only cast one

rigid narwhal
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Right. Also, I think Dome turns off if you shoot.

hoary marten
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yep

coarse hill
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I'm thinking right that we have nothing that makes our casters better than anyone else's right

hoary marten
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we have casters that are cheaper

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and more of them

coarse hill
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But we actually cast powers just the same as everyone else

near gust
prime eagle
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well magnus can prevent some bad thinkgs

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as i recall

hoary marten
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actually we can cast powers better with a warlord trait

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Makes the whole unit cast better

coarse hill
#

Do we have any way to manipulate perils? I can just see our squad leaders evaporating due to it lol

hoary marten
#

another warlord trait

prime eagle
hoary marten
#

we make the enemy take the perils

rigid narwhal
shrewd turret
near gust
hoary marten
#

sadly cant upgrade an apothecary to a full psyker 😦

rigid narwhal
#

Probably don't want to.

coarse hill
rigid narwhal
#

You can give Apoths an Achean Force weapon and 2 casts a turn is probably enough.

rigid narwhal
near gust
rigid narwhal
#

Don't upgrade your sergeants at all until then

coarse hill
#

I think it depends how key the cult is to the squad

#

Raptora breachers? That 4++ is very important

rigid narwhal
#

At 1 wound, the Sergeant isn't surviving the game.

#

ever

coarse hill
#

Are apoths 1w or 2?

rigid narwhal
#

1

hoary marten
#

The only 2 cult worth for sekmet is pyrae and pavoni

#

and you probably go with pavoni for the extra movement

rigid narwhal
coarse hill
#

Does Magnus help prevent perils?

hoary marten
#

yeah probably take biomancy for the extra strength and toughness

#

magnus reduce the amount you take as well as a save against them

rigid narwhal
#

Osirons get a 3++ against perils with him.

coarse hill
#

I almost think that might be completely necessary given the amount of tests we will be taking

hoary marten
#

I perfer what you had in playtest 1 where you make everyone cast better

#

So how many are doing a biomancy osiron

#

making it toughness 8

rigid narwhal
#

If you've got squads in close you could consider Raptora because the invulns are actually useful, then.

hoary marten
#

get a 4++ invul on the dread

#

basically make it a Leviathan

rigid narwhal
#

If you're going Biomancy that's probably the take since it's going to be brawling

coarse hill
#

Is there a hq that hands out reroll hits or wounds at all? Preferred enemy maybe

near gust
#

Chaplain ?

hoary marten
#

we still havent seen the rite of war we have

coarse hill
hoary marten
#

playtest 1 or final?

#

I've seen playtest 1

#

but they might of changed

near gust
#

Even if it remains the same as in V1 HH, GotCK would be almost unplayable with the new Sekmeths...

shrewd turret
#

I've seen a different version to axis than playtest 1, but cant remember where 😛

shrewd turret
near gust
#

Overcosted imo.

coarse hill
near gust
#

Base, they are not even "discipline" psyker.

rigid narwhal
hoary marten
#

they are 100 points more for an extra ws and baby force

rigid narwhal
#

Yeah, super overpriced.

hoary marten
#

and 25 points for a psychic discipline

#

yeah

rigid narwhal
#

We got beat over the head with the nerf bat

coarse hill
#

Tartaros with raptora+pavoni seems potentially strong

hoary marten
#

10" movement

rigid narwhal
#

Sure, regular termies.

hoary marten
#

extra weapon skill mean more than now though

rigid narwhal
#

You can't take Tartaros Sekhmet anymore.

coarse hill
#

Yeah that is sad

hoary marten
#

yep hopefully we get a tartaros terminator with exemplary

near gust
#

I'm afraid that "Traitorous" Legion will only have chaosy stuff with further up release.

hoary marten
#

Have they stopped exemplary battles?

near gust
#

And that we are "losing" what makes Horus Heresy the Horus Heresy. I get that Siege of Terra is "Horus Heresy" but... It's already Chaos Space Marines vs Imperium SM.

#

On the other hand...

#

I can't wait for a Disk Mounted Sorcerer Thousand Sons unit.

rigid narwhal
#

I could kinda do without that

hoary marten
#

you mean you cant wait for tzaangors

rigid narwhal
#

This ^

near gust
#

Oh no please god no.

rigid narwhal
#

It's GW, if they add 40k stuff in they'll keep trying to sell the crap they can't. So....I just hope they keep all the 40k stuff in 40k.

near gust
#

Yeah I hope.

hoary marten
#

we can have the terminators

near gust
#

I already don't like the treatment of Horus Heresy so far.

#

Deleting whole choice and stuff because "ThErE iS nO mInIs FoR tHaT"

hoary marten
#

they are getting rules later

#

probably because people complained

near gust
#

They should have not disappear in the first place.

hoary marten
#

True, I was worried they might reduce weapon options

#

like they are doing with 40k

rigid narwhal
near gust
#

Honestly, the story of "playtesting so the game is balanced" is bullshit I think.

#

It's already drifting the heresy toward a bad behaviour.

rigid narwhal
#

It's GW, they don't playtest anything

#

They send out their marketing packages, call that 'playtesting', and then don't listen to the input when someone says something is a problem if it's something they want to push.

hoary marten
#

At least we dont play a 15 point tax for our legion ability

nocturne cove
#

I will keep reservations on what this whole FAQ thing is about...

rigid narwhal
#

I'd pay 15 points for a 3++ on Sekhmet.

#

all day

near gust
#

Some stuff that went away during the "playtest" phases really are weird.

rigid narwhal
#

A lot of our changes just seem rushed.

near gust
#

Yeah.

coarse hill
#

Yeah I get that we need to be nerfed but it all seems a bit much

#

We also just don't really strike me as psychic superiority any more

rigid narwhal
#

We're not, we're 'cast powers to get up to par'

near gust
#

The whole +1 to hit on Hydran Exemplar/Excursor for AL, with -1WS on Lernaeans.
The whole "TSons are not so Psychic Anymore"
The whole "Son of Nostromo" in a Salamander lore text.
The whole "Word bearer True Believers"

coarse hill
#

Having your rules based on die rolls is a real feels bad

near gust
#

bUt We CaN cHoOsE tHe EfFeCt NoW.

#

(Wait, we already could in V1)

coarse hill
#

It's funny because they really learned this lesson with us in 40k but didn't here

hoary marten
#

Just got to wait a year for our book

coarse hill
near gust
#

This is the worst move ever.

#

But it milks the cow.

#

35£/40€ a book.

hoary marten
#

I believe it is

rigid narwhal
#

For HH it makes sense for them. Most of us already have minis.

near gust
#

Yeah but...

#

I mean, as said, I don't see what they will add. Traitorous Legions will have whole stuff of "We are Chaoooooooos now 😏 "

coarse hill
#

I dunno I kinda see more campaign books with rules for units every legion can use being more effective in terms of getting everyone to buy them

near gust
#

Deathguards will be Plague guard.

#

World Eaters be Khorne barzarkar.

coarse hill
#

Also fluff wise we were mostly MK4 right

near gust
#

We had our own Forge World.

#

So we could be Mk 7.8 Achean Super Pattern that... well...

rigid narwhal
near gust
#

Rubric are ages after Prospero.

#

Like... at least 50 years.

rigid narwhal
#

Didn't Magnus evac the legion to the planet of sorcerers?

near gust
#

He did.

#

But Rubric is during age of i don't remember the name.

nocturne cove
#

Honestly the only real thing that pisses me off is that the Tson rules read awfully.

Like it's such a meandering round about way of explaining things that could've just been explained with a list or a table or in half the words used but instead they give us such a nothing burger of words we've all had to spend the last 4 days debating what the writers even meant when they wrote it.

near gust
#

Like M32

hoary marten
#

Have any of you tried to castellax-achea rules

keen jackal
near gust
#

Not in TSons. Does the Praevian and the Castellax RoW can take Achea-stellax instead of regular ones ?

keen jackal
#

Just about to talk about that, I'm so glad I can shoot and charge, and how I can shoot and charge

hoary marten
#

I compared it to the old rules and its so much more wordy

keen jackal
#

They also force you to keep an IC within 6" to function properly, instead of their longer range before. Even though they can cast for psykers within 12"

hoary marten
#

Maybe that'll get faq

#

since thats just weird

near gust
#

GW has this particular ability to make a bad unit even worse ^^'

nocturne cove
hoary marten
#

What do people think about ahriman and amon

#

they gave them unique weapons instead of a normal force weapon

nocturne cove
#

I like ahriman. And I think amon in certain situations could be good as well. His ability to give an army shrouded 5+ for the first two turns is pretty good if they have scout and infiltrate in their rules already. Amon is definitely the "unique character used to play this army differently to how you'd normally play it"

#

Ahriman is a total beat stick

#

I think Amon in a recon company would be pretty strong

coarse hill
#

Ahriman does just seem like a generalist now

#

Lots of useful bits on a strong statline

nocturne cove
#

Which is good tbh. Sometimes you just need a good solid no nonsense unique character that isn't a primarch that you know you can rely on to get the job done.

I always kinda felt like ahriman was pretty gimpy in 1.0 for the supposed Grand Master Arch Librarian of the Thousand sons whatever he is

coarse hill
#

The scout on three units was amazing though

#

Not particularly unique though

nocturne cove
#

Like he literally is a partial god in 40k but his 30k counterpart was pretty strong as well

hoary marten
#

I like how ahriman gets an extra reaction in any phase

nocturne cove
#

Getting them to deploy in one place and then moving in such a way to put them all out of position

hoary marten
#

What unit do you put ahriman in

coarse hill
nocturne cove
# coarse hill Doesn't really help Vs a defensively deploying opponent though

I mean keeping your opponent guessing is half the game really. It happens after all infiltration and scout moves occur and you can remove any 3 friendly units in your army.

Imagine deploying to defend against a mastodon or something and the before the first movement phase begins suddenly that mastodon and 40 guys are completely gone to the other side of the table

#

I've completely trounced guys like this in 40k using pretty much the same trait here as he gets in 40k to play mind games before the game starts

coarse hill
#

I know it's super good in 40k but without knowing who is going first the real teeth to reposition to take full advantage are taken out of it

nocturne cove
#

I mean yeah but it still mucks up any plans someone mightve had until after the game starts or psych them out to commit to a mistake

prime eagle
#

Magnus was super good in 1.0 after nerf with his D power level

#

but now i feel magnus is not good for 500points

#

what does he offer beside -1 dmg to perils? units cant use his Ld, like they can with WB

#

how unlucky. i picked 2 legions to play. TS and BA, both of which got nerfed to the ground in same update 😄

hoary marten
#

BA will probably be one of the next legion to get attention after IF and SoH

prime eagle
#

god i hope. as for now, deep strike is like a jump to your own death

#

but magnus is super usless for 520 points. and i dont think he can do much against real enemy. God forbid he encounters a 3++ unit, or another primarch

coarse hill
#

Isn't the daemons summoning like better D's?

prime eagle
#

noone likes deamons 😄

coarse hill
#

I just mean that would make DS a lot better lol

prime eagle
#

well DS is now horrible.

#

so anything rly is better

nocturne cove
#

I think demons deep striking is going to have its own thing going on... given how pretty much their entire army needs to start in deep strike if the word bearers rules and esoterist rules for summoning are anything to go by

#

Like you can't have an army that relies on a mechanic that has a chance of killing 3/4ths of the army with a few bad rolls before they enter the game.

#

And then force them to only use this method of entry to the game

prime eagle
#

not to mention every unit within 18'' can fire upon your arival with just item for 10pts

nocturne cove
#

You might as well just say demon players deep strike perfectly but only take half the points of the other army

#

Yeah ngl I don't understand how you intercept a demon appearing from a warp portal... unless you're a psyker or something innately I feel like AA guns aren't a counter to demons

rigid narwhal
prime eagle
#

well you get shot my reaction of enemy. you still cant charge and for 10 points per unit, every unit can intercept your DS. dont recall the item u have to buy name

#

i bealive range is 18''

#

and when u land, u still take 1 turn of shooting in your face. and if you play against deathguard you have to walk/charge/consolidate throu dangerous terrain

nocturne cove
#

Augarey sensor I think

prime eagle
#

yea!

coarse hill
#

Oh yeah no charge on the DS turn was a thing wasn't it

#

I forgot about that

prime eagle
#

yea. that kinda kills all DS assault

#

and i played DS assault BA 😄

nocturne cove
#

Yeah...

If it wasn't I'd totally do Khenetai in storm eagles racing onto the field like it was Star Wars Attack of the clones and then assaulting straight from the transport.

prime eagle
#

you can still use spartan for jedi assault 😄

#

i think i will. they are nice

#

4 attack each, if i bealive

nocturne cove
shrewd turret
#

wow, this turned into a salt mine 😛

nocturne cove
#

Is it though?

#

I don't think most people are complaining here in a salty way. Like rules that are clear and concise and make sense seems like a pretty reasonable ask.

#

Or not legitimately contrived for no reason

coarse hill
#

I'd be curious to hear of combo's or other stuff people think we're best at with our new rules

#

20 tacs with an apoth and asphyx for +3" move and HoW sounds pretty good to me, esp in axis

rigid narwhal
#

You're charging with tacs?

hoary marten
#

you give them bayonets

near gust
#

Even I, the salty AL, can just "complain" about TS rules in a reserved manner.

prime eagle
#

you know things got "little out of hand" when we TS, consider charging with tacticals, and are somewhat happy for '+3 move and How 😄

nocturne cove
#

You know a Pyrae Tactical squad with chain bayonets doesn't sound half too bad...

2 attacks +1 strength, Shred, hammer of Wrath (2)

#

The hammer of Wrath having the flame special rule

coarse hill
#

Weight of dice in both shooting charge and melee

nocturne cove
#

I mean a 20 man squad bayonet charging into you and immediately doing 40 HoW hits with flame seems like its gonna make someone blink for a moment at the surprise of tacticals doing that

hoary marten
#

what about doing both

#

put an apothecary in the squad

nocturne cove
#

I mean they will absolutely die to some ridiculous bullshit unique unit obviously...

#

"The thousand sons players got so desperate they went through a phase of larping as the Imperial guard"

coarse hill
#

Spamming enough MSU corvidae to snipe out all the heavy weapons and Sarge's out of units is also a thing I guess

rigid narwhal
#

I feel like, really, our actual unique stuff is the Osiron and Castellax. Everything else is just overpriced versions of stuff other people have that might explode.

coarse hill
#

Asphyx and aetherfire to a lesser extent too

rigid narwhal
#

True, also those

coarse hill
#

I guess other armies will struggle to fit in more than two casters for the most part as well

rigid narwhal
#

True, but those casters really need to be supporting the other stuff

#

I like Corvidae on Asphyx tac squads because really they don't need to have their arcana active all the time

#

Pavoni on Aetherfire Support Squads because if they pop due to turning on their weapons it just kills a random dude from the squad, and they don't need to be zipping around all the time.

#

Kinda feeling the HQs is 1 Praetor and 2 Librarians

#

because as multi-wound models they're 'safer' multi-casts

#

But.....Sekhmet and Khenetai just....feel bad

hoary marten
#

We might have the toughest dread since we can make it have a 4++ and toughness 8

nocturne cove
#

Is it possible to run a castellax army

#

Well... an achean one

rigid narwhal
#

Don't think so?

hoary marten
#

cant make them troops

#

why would we take librarians?

rigid narwhal
#

The RoWs for Castellax and Contemptors don't allow for uniques.

rigid narwhal
#

They're 120 points for 3 casts.

hoary marten
#

isnt cheaper just to upgrade a basic centurion for the same?

#

you just dont get a hood

nocturne cove
#

In built force weapon as well on the librarian

rigid narwhal
hoary marten
#

upgrade with the thousand sons +15 points instead

#

for a power

rigid narwhal
#

You don't get a Force weapon or a Hood, but I suppose.

#

especially if he's just going to be a support piece.

#

I do like access to a hood, though.

nocturne cove
#

Hood is still ranged denial isn't it

hoary marten
#

depends how often other legion run pyskers

#

-2 to tests in a range

rigid narwhal
#

there's no more Deny tests

hoary marten
#

+45 points to upgrade to a librarian and another 15 for the hood

coarse hill
rigid narwhal
#

Naw, just put them in rhinos.

#

Tac squads are supposed to live on objectives anyway

coarse hill
rigid narwhal
#

Cent+cast is 75

hoary marten
#

45

#

45 with the hood

#

30 without

#

difference

rigid narwhal
#

So, valid point. 45 points if psykers or the mirror becomes common

#

elsewise just save those

hoary marten
#

upgrading to a chaplain and give a power probably worth for leadership 10

rigid narwhal
#

We'll have to see how nutty Ruinstorm turns out

rigid narwhal
hoary marten
#

chaplains are better pyskers than librarian

rigid narwhal
#

good job GW

coarse hill
#

Chaplains so unfluffy for us too lol

hoary marten
#

most lists are gonna need to bring something to snipe models with hoods

#

that -2 to cast is gonna be annoying

rigid narwhal
#

well, as of now, the only thing that can have hoods is librarians

nocturne cove
#

I like to think a Tsons "chaplain" would be akin to a sort of spirit guide or some sort of councilor that helps guide aspirants in the ways of the Enumeration

hoary marten
#

and esoterist

coarse hill
#

Tbh sniping stuff out is something corvidae MSU does do very well

rigid narwhal
hoary marten
#

are those special anti pysker terminators in the game still?

rigid narwhal
#

Dunno...I'll probably be testing Telepathy spam.

nocturne cove
#

I still think it's really funny that the space wolves unique consular unit a caster of runes cannot take Thaumaturgy.

I.e. the skill of psyker knowledge used in the battle against the warp and cleansing reality of warp taint.

But Ahriman does have Thaumaturgy.

Turns out the space wolves ain't as good at fighting chaos as they thought they were

rigid narwhal
#

Oh wait, Dark Angels have a bunch of anti-psyker stuff, I think

#

Good thing their plasma explodes

hoary marten
#

I'm surprised salamanders got their own discipline

nocturne cove
#

I can't wait to see what the the sisters of silence rules are... I hope they make it so allying in sisters of silence to any other army is a bit more involved than taking the bare minimum

hoary marten
#

I would guess sisters have the same debuff as hoods

rigid narwhal
#

if they bashed us so hard with the nerf bat, I hope they do the same with Custodes. Otherwise the game is in trouble.

hoary marten
#

nah custodes be up to 3 wounds

rigid narwhal
#

3 wounds is fine. 2+/3++/5+++ all rerollable is not

hoary marten
#

all armies get 5+++ now from range with the reaction

nocturne cove
#

"But it's lore accurate"

"It's also lore accurate most of you die in the webway and 4/5ths of your army should be there not here"

rigid narwhal
hoary marten
#

so the custodes army

rigid narwhal
#

Except Custodes can do that on everybody without spending their reaction

nocturne cove
#

I still think that the traitor and loyalist books are basically index books like the start of 8th edition 40k

#

Light on rules. Enough to get your started.

More complex rules will come with the expansions

rigid narwhal
#

you're probably right

#

depending on how the game takes off

hoary marten
#

Lets hope each army don't get 10 unique different reactions

rigid narwhal
#

IF and SoH will get books first

nocturne cove
#

Which honestly I'm super stoked for... especially if its like a book per legion...

rigid narwhal
hoary marten
#

I think 2 unique reaction would be alright. Just don't want to devolve in to stratagems

rigid narwhal
#

How will they sell you 20 more useless decks of cards tho?

hoary marten
#

5 unique disciplines for each cult

#

20 cards be for alpha legion who has everyone elses reactions

nocturne cove
#

I don't think they will be strats or like strats.

But I do think before all is said and done each legion might get like... another one or two unique reactions. Maybe once per game and a more tonned down one that can be used like a normal reaction

rigid narwhal
#

I expect one per phase

hoary marten
#

We have a pretty good reaction

#

a on demand 3++ or if you fail 5++

rigid narwhal
#

and then probably another 1pg 'ultimate'

nocturne cove
#

So long as you pop it I guess

rigid narwhal
#

at least it's not '1pg, roll to possibly do nothing'

nocturne cove
#

I just sorta wish they would figure out another way to balance tsons than to just attribute it all to chance

#

Like RNG is nice but not EVERYTHING needs to be RNG

rigid narwhal
#

ignore Suzeriens

near gust
#

Yeah...

hoary marten
#

Nothing in our rules about the flesh change

near gust
#

Ignore +1 to hit on a chosen legion... :P

near gust
nocturne cove
#

Where the Teutalaries at?

#

The things that helped tsons be better than average psykers

hoary marten
#

You got to wait for the tson books

nocturne cove
#

Could've had a whole page dedicated to teutalaries and that could've been our legion bonus thing. Where you could pick benign or chaotic ones and they provided different benefits and downsides

#

Some would be traitor locked some wouldn't be and then you could also choose to reject them all together and gain a different benefit and drawback instead

rigid narwhal
#

just from a game design perspective, anything that has a 'chance not to happen' should be good if it does

#

Even more so if it taxes you on failure

#

"1 precision strike if you don't explode" does not meet that criteria

nocturne cove
#

Yeah it's really not worth the brain fart for a single shot...

rigid narwhal
#

"-1 LD if you happen to be also using a pinning weapon and don't explode" doesn't meet that criteria

hoary marten
#

Do you think any of the main disciplines changed from playtest3?

#

3" movement seems about right

nocturne cove
#

Maybe. I know our cults changed drastically from phase 1

hoary marten
#

since it also helps with charging giving a +1 to it

nocturne cove
#

I dunno how many of you are familiar with phase 1 cults

hoary marten
#

Yeah I saw them

#

Pyrae has a lot of things that happened

#

made flamers and meta better

#

and made them worst against you

rigid narwhal
#

Raptora got nerfed into near unusability

hoary marten
#

3++ they did not like

nocturne cove
#

Pyrae sounded a lot more fluffy in the phase 1 build... now its pretty dumpy

hoary marten
#

raptora and pyrae are like what they were 1.0 but now its a power you cast

rigid narwhal
hoary marten
#

how yeah double nerf from playtest 1

nocturne cove
#

In 1.0 you got a minor and a major with the major being the actual casted one which made more sense really

rigid narwhal
#

right

hoary marten
#

athanean gave leadership 10

rigid narwhal
#

now it's 'roll to not explode or enjoy your vanilla marines'

#

and your Terminators that are 100 pts more expensive because reasons

hoary marten
#

this playtest 1

#

Corvidae became divination power

nocturne cove
#

P1 honestly was much better

hoary marten
#

yeah even though most units costs 15 more

#

you did get free shred on your bolters

rigid narwhal
#

which now at 1ppm is basically the same

hoary marten
#

my brick of 20 bolter marines got 5 points more expensive

rigid narwhal
#

and our ICs can't have our cool baby force

#

because reasons

nocturne cove
#

We spent the budget

#

How?

#

Khenetai got a double shipment

rigid narwhal
#

also, ICs can take Aetherfire stuff they can't activate

hoary marten
#

Not being able to put a character with the khenetai makes me hate them

#

I wanted ahriman to party around with them

nocturne cove
#

Apparently kenetai party alone and die alone

hoary marten
#

Yep but they did go down points and got an extra wound since 1.0 so I guess more usable now

rigid narwhal
#

Really the rules we have now feel like "Hey Bob, we need to ship the book like right now for marketing hype. Are you done with the balance adjustments for Thousand Sons?" "No...I was getting a sandwich." "Well, whatever, just make them cost more and take away their abilities."

hoary marten
#

I like how you can buff leviathans with biomancy

rigid narwhal
#

wait....WAIT

#

we're not actually a Horus Heresy army

#

We're a Warmachine army.

hoary marten
#

wait it works for our robots as well

rigid narwhal
#

our best unique units are giant angry robots and our best characters are wizards.

hoary marten
#

so 5 castellax robots and wizard with biomancy

#

make them all s7 and t7

#

which tank would be the best to give precision shots to

nocturne cove
#

Strength 8 swords

#

Now strength 6

near gust
#

Strength bad.

#

Where are my old 6 attacks per head WS 6 Init 5 Kenethai blades 😢

tough wigeon
#

very sad no force for ICs 😦

rigid narwhal
hoary marten
#

1.0 they were strength 4 but had instant death

nocturne cove
# rigid narwhal I thought they were I5 in P1.

M    WS    BS    S    T    W    I    A    Ld    Sv
Khenetai Blade   
7    5    4    4    4    2    4    2    8    3+
Khenetai Blademaster   
    7    5    4    4    4    2    4    3    9    3+

near gust
#

1.0 they were S7 T7 :p

#

(Sorry, I rolled iron arms then only time I played them so...)

rigid narwhal
#

I wanna see a RoW that lets us take Osirons and Castellax Achea as Troops.

#

also HQ Osiron

near gust
#

Won't happen. HQ Osiron is gone. For Fury of the Ancients you can't even take an Osiron as your warlord as per the rule.

#

Which SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS.

nocturne cove
rigid narwhal
#

even just a blurb "Osirons may be taken as Contemptors for the purposes of the Fury of the Ancients RoW, including the Venerable Ancient trait"

nocturne cove
near gust
nocturne cove
#

I might just do it anyways

#

And just ask people if it's OK prior

#

Look I'm paying the points anyways. What does it matter

rigid narwhal
#

Other downside. No librarians or chaplains in Fury of the Ancients.

near gust
#

But Mortificator Dready Best friend is awesome ^^'

nocturne cove
#

Ye have to rely on ICs with 15 point upgrades

near gust
#

The Flavor is so cool I think on the Mortificator I could just have one because "REASONS"

nocturne cove
#

A mortificator heals a dread like?

near gust
#

Yeah.

#

And the dread he is with is something like IWND 5+

#

(As long as the Morti is alive)

nocturne cove
#

They also handle the dreadnought internment process as well

#

Which basically is like a pseudo cyber egyptian embalming process

near gust
#

This. Is. Awesoooooome.

nocturne cove
#

One of the Three Red Orders

near gust
#

All of them with some Blood Angel Death masks (with a bit of conversion)

nocturne cove
#

For anyone curious the three red orders are probably things you've heard in passing but play major roles in the background day to day business of prospero and the Legion.

They are;

The Order of Ruin.

Thousand sons tactical command essentially. They are the thinkers behind the tsons when they go to war. Mixing the arcane and the occult with mathematics and logistics.

Often they were made up by analytical minds.

All the Legion tech marines fell under this order. And the order had close ties to Forge world Zhao-Arkhad.

The Order of Blindness

The Hidden ones.

You will surely have heard of the blind order given one of our unique special characters literally runs it. Amon leads it.

They are Tsons special intelligence, espionage, sabotage and if necessary, assassination. They operate in the dark so that the Legion may live in the light. And often ran disinformation campaigns to confuse and disorientate the for long before the tsons striked.

Finally

The Order of the Jackal

"The measure of life and death"

Basically the Legion apothecarion. But so much more...

They not only handled apothecary tasks but also handled burial rites. Funerals, the passing of the fallen. Recording their deeds and legacy and most importantly remembering them.

The Order of the Jackal also served by having their members be apart of all major cult temples. They served as arbiters for the Legion. The honour guard the Jackal order afforded to the 5 temples were none other than the Khenetai blade occult.of which the most famous member of which was none other than Iskander Khayon.

They would guard the reliquary and sites of sacred space for all. Standing in the peripheries of view capable of silently striking down a foe with their bonded blades in a matter of seconds.

keen jackal
#

Is it worth it to give a moritat a discipline? I'm kind of liking the idea of a twin aether fire pistol chain fire moritat. Sounds awesome, slinging fire with finger guns.

near gust
#

"The Hidden ones.

You will surely have heard of the blind order given one of our unique special characters literally runs it. Amon leads it.

They are Tsons special intelligence, espionage, sabotage and if necessary, assassination. They operate in the dark so that the Legion may live in the light. And often ran disinformation campaigns to confuse and disorientate the for long before the tsons striked. "

That's exactly what I wanted to do with my Hydran Excursor Thousand Sons "Alpha Legionnaire Praetor"

#

I'll surely home made this WLT back into what it was.

nocturne cove
#

I wonder if the Order of the Blind was in charge of Moritats or the order of the Jackal because the mark of the Moritat was a mark for death

#

God there is so much obscure tsons lore in the books that you just don't get on the table top...

Although there is a way to represent the 6th cult now

#

Cult Aquilae or The Sixth Cult of the Denied.

#

Basically they proposed a cult to commune with demons.

Surprise surprise Magnus and pretty much the rest of the Legion really weren't pleased about that so they didn't last long.

But a Sixth Cultist could be represented by an Esoterist now...

nocturne cove
hoary marten
#

So how is a magnus against the other primarchs

near gust
#

Where Biomancy Magnus in v1 good arguably be the best primarch.

V2 Magnus is...

#

Less good, let's say

keen jackal
#

Yeah the more I think about it the more I'm starting to like a corvidae moritat leading a squad of pyrae asphyx pistol jump pack destroyers. Hammer of wrath (3), 3 shred attacks apiece with -1T on the charge, 20 shred pistol shots, 12 aether fire pistol shots, and potentially pinning if they deepstrike nearby enemy units. Pretty neat.

rigid narwhal
#

I don't know if HoW is cumulative

#

I kinda wish you could take all plasma pistols with one jump squad

#

sucks the only squads that can really lean into aetherfire are TSS and HSS

keen jackal
#

Yeah I definitely would love to put more than 1 in 5 plasma pistols in a squad. Oh well. If seeker's combi guns weren't single shot they might be useful. Precision shots 4+ on bs5 marked for death is pretty neat.

Could you swap the bolter and/or plasma part of a combi weapon for their 1ksons equivalent? The legion weapon rules for taking combi weapons gives you both guns, could It be argued that you could pay the 1pt to make the bolter part of a combi plasma asphyx and the plasma part aether fire for free? That might be an interesting option.

rigid narwhal
#

It's unclear if you can swap plasma parts on combis, especially because of the single shot.

#

It's not even clear if combi-bolters can have Asphyx

keen jackal
#

I mean common sense wise you'd absolutely be able to swap combi bolters. GW has to GW

rigid narwhal
#

you'd think so. We'll have to hope for a FAQ

rigid narwhal
#

is there a 'rule of 3' in HH?

willow mirage
#

There isn't in 1.0. Rule of three was introduced in 40k because the FOC got the boot and people were abusing that in 40k tourneys.

near gust
frosty plaza
#

Been thinking last night about the issue with sergeants getting sniped out from under us and effectively losing the legion trait

#

Yknow what it almost makes me miss?

#

Ammitara

nocturne cove
#

Yeah I mentioned that the first day the book leaks dropped.

Codewalrus said their team was working on a fan fix for that

coarse hill
#

Speaking of bolter issues, can a tac squad with asphyx bolters actually activate fury of the legion?

nocturne cove
#

I believe asphyx weapons are considered bolt weapons for any rules regarding them

nocturne cove
#

Are all bolters only 18 inches now?

coarse hill
#

Fury references specially bolters though, not bolt weapons

coarse hill
nocturne cove
#

Rules as intended yes it does use asphyx rules.

#

Because otherwise what's the point

coarse hill
#

Yeah ofc

#

RAW I think it needs an FAQ though

nocturne cove
#

It's already got a range downgrade and costs points to equip what more do people want

#

Not being able to use FOTL would just mean nobody would use it pretty much ever

near gust
#

I think you can FOTL, and that's the only reason why some other Legion special bolts are not available for tactics.

keen jackal
# frosty plaza Ammitara

Some people are talking about taking rotor cannon athanean squads for pinning, but you can do the same with an athanean vigilator. Master crafted nemesis bolter, rending 2+, shell shock, sniper. Put him with a squad of nemesis bolter seekers and you SHOULD be able to lock down a unit pretty well, or at least pick out the trouble models from it. Times like this I envy 40k where everything has split fire. You could shoot your snipers around the board and force multiple pin checks.

shrewd turret
#

One of those is like 150 points though and the other like 500

keen jackal
#

AA consul with vigilator upgrade is 95pts, 165 for 5 seekers with nemesis bolters and AA sergeant. 290 for 10

ivory walrus
#

How do apothecaries work in units? There's wording that says all characters in the unit have to have the same arcana so does that mean the apothecary has to the arcana the unit takes?

keen jackal
#

Well the choice is made at the army creation step, and the apothecaries don't join units until deployment. I think they're good.

On that note, the apothecarion detachment rules say that they get all the rules for whatever unit they join. I'm assuming this means they also get to fury of the legion, or gain mind song of blades for khenatai. I would hope at least.

ivory walrus
#

I do like the khenetai but mind song just seems too restrictive for them to work on the table

nocturne cove
#

Apothecaries get the unit cult type or abilities

#

As well as the psyker keyword

#

Or unit type

ivory walrus
#

So they will get mindsong?

#

Also they're not going to be able to mindsong if they're in a transport right? Kinda neuters them a bit

nocturne cove
#

They gain warriors of the Khenetai

#

Which in turn means they lose cult ability. But gain mindsong as per warriors of the Khenetai special rules

keen jackal
#

Oh damn so they wouldn't even get their minor arcana? I guess the fnp would be worth it, since it's the only other way to give them a buff without losing mindsong

nocturne cove
#

Also interestingly the apothecary gains chosen warrior. Not that you'd want him accepting challenges

#

Yeah warriors of the Khenetai is very clear in that regard. You exchange your cult for mindsong basically

ivory walrus
#

It's the simplest way of saying this unit gets a unique cult that they must take

nocturne cove
ivory walrus
#

I imagine if we get intercession cabals back they'll be worded in a similar way

nocturne cove
keen jackal
#

They gain the warriors of the khenatai rule, which gives them mindsong

nocturne cove
#

I know I just said that before.

I'm saying anyone that doesn't have mindsong switches off mindsong as an ability.

So you can't have them benefit from any other cult powers by adding another cult unit into them.

ivory walrus
#

Yeah if a praetor joins mindsong turns off for example

nocturne cove
#

Like say a praetor joins them. He switches off their ability to mindsong but confers a cult he can cast on them instead

keen jackal
#

Well I guess they COULD benefit from a minor arcana but not mindsong and the arcana. They'd be an alright target for a nearby biomancy spell though

nocturne cove
#

Yes biomancy from an outside source seems like a good idea

keen jackal
#

That gets them to what, s8 T5 with achean force?

nocturne cove
#

But for the purposes of fighting as a unit... they must fight alone.

ivory walrus
#

But if you want to get gamey with it, don't characters join and leave in the movement phase? You cast mindsong at the start of the turn, then the character joins. It says you can only cast it if everyone has it, nothing about the buff falling off

nocturne cove
#

Or with anyone that can get mindsong

#

You know inadvertently GW has made it very fluffy by complete accident that apothecaries can get mindsong...

Given the Khenetai occult are directly under the Order of the Jackal. Which is comprised of the Legions Apothecarion

#

By complete accident they have made a very fluffy happenstance

nocturne cove
hoary marten
#

what you could do is have both the character and the khentai in a transport. Khentai come out and wait a turn to be able to cast mindsong. Then on the turn they cast the character comes out and joins the unit

ivory walrus
#

The cool thing about mindsong is that +1 to mv gives you +1 to charge because you cross the 8" threshold. But because you can't cast it while chilling in the land raider it does suck a bit

keen jackal
#

So here's another thing about them, they can't really get an invuln save outside of a telekinesis power, so you want to keep them in their transport until they want to charge. Then after they get out they'll be at peak effectiveness presumably, but they'll lose some models in return from melee or shooting, since no one is going to let that unit stand around unscathed. Mindsong will help push the unit back up into an effective use range after losing a couple guys. Thankfully mindsong doesn't care how many are in the unit anymore. Oh and because the unit can still cast mindsong if the sergeant is dead they're one of the few units we have that you'll actually want to be tanking hits on your artificer armor with.

hoary marten
#

sadly you cant get to s8 for that instant death

keen jackal
#

Ah damn I though mindsong also gave +S. So they can get to S7 with achean force and the biomancy power. That kind of stinks. Still 5A apiece on the charge with S6 AP3 rending 6+ attacks isn't too bad. You can even pop tanks with that

hoary marten
#

I wonder how they fair against terminators. Since against power armour they are deadly

#

If they were strength 8 I think they have a chance, but at s7 will they able get through all the wounds

ivory walrus
#

They'll absolutely slaughter anything in power armour though

#

What is the best option for dealing with terminators? How do biomancy Sehkmet fair?

rigid narwhal
#

Reading up....if your goal is to pin a unit...you can give any IC Athanaen and Telepathy.

nocturne cove
#

A lot of other legion terminators seem to want to get into close combat so maybe shooting at them before they can assault is a good plan

hoary marten
#

sehkmet seem worst than normal terminators

#

Don't thing the extra 100 points are worth

nocturne cove
#

They seem a bit over costed for what they actually can achieve

#

For what a normal terminator squad could achieve

hoary marten
#

yeah you probably get the same with power fist terminators

nocturne cove
#

Hell a retinue of terminators or not even that with AA might be better

#

Skehmet's selling point is they can buy discipline without being an ic

#

Which MAYBE might make them worth it. Maybe. But that's still 125 points extra ontop of a normal terminator squad

rigid narwhal
nocturne cove
#

Do other terminators get stubborn

rigid narwhal
#

a few other unique ones, I think

keen jackal
#

Yeah they really needed to keep at least the asphyx bolters stock on them, if not giving them an included discipline.

hoary marten
nocturne cove
#

OK so for 125 points extra you get:

1 psyker discipline.

5 achean force weapons of three varieties.

Stubborn.

Their cult which is free anyways.

Weaponskill 5

#

Is that worth 125 points?

hoary marten
#

extra 20 points for another terminator

rigid narwhal
#

so a powerfist is +10

#

on a regular termy

keen jackal
#

Might be worth it if our invulns could go to 3++ with raptora

hoary marten
#

normal terminators could of got that as well

keen jackal
#

TH/SS/asphyx combi bolter psychic boys

#

I suppose so

rigid narwhal
#

Thing is, even if they were on par points-wise, Sekhmet take 2 psychic tests to get there

nocturne cove
#

It also costs 30 points to add a new standard terminator. Vs 50 for a skehmet

keen jackal
#

Yeah they probably just saw how well they over performed last edition and said "nope"

rigid narwhal
#

Now they're stone useless

nocturne cove
#

I don't know if I'm using skehmet...

hoary marten
#

If they had full force maybe they could of been okay. But with +2s force you need bio to get axes to strength 8

nocturne cove
#

Normal terminators with cult and a librarian honestly sounds cheaper

rigid narwhal
hoary marten
#

use small bio for only +1s

rigid narwhal
#

whereas powerfists just do itr

keen jackal
#

At least they look cool

rigid narwhal
#

wait...can you stack buffs?

#

like, double Biomancy?

nocturne cove
#

Force axes still have unwieldy so they're basically power fists with extra steps

nocturne cove
hoary marten
#

you can take a test with biomancy to get +1s and +1t or dont take the test for only +1s

nocturne cove
#

Sure they lose stubborn and weapon skill 5

rigid narwhal
#

there's....no limiter in the rulebook on multibuffing units....

nocturne cove
#

No that's dumb

rigid narwhal
nocturne cove
#

You could literally power buff a unit into a slam dunk

hoary marten
#

librarian nah take a Chaplain. They are better psykers

nocturne cove
#

3 ics casting biomancy on a unit would give +3 strength +3 toughness making skehmet strength 11 with achean force axes toughness 7

#

Strength 12 with force mauls ap3

keen jackal
#

Do you really want to bring 2 ICs and the sekhmet into one unit just to get one single unit up in strength?

rigid narwhal
nocturne cove
#

And each ic could have a different cult so you could give 4 out of the 5 cults abilities at the same time

keen jackal
#

I mean it's nice to have, and a good call back to iron arm, but the hoops you have to jump through and you'd need to build the rest of the force around it. No use having an all shooting force and one melee brick if all your support casters only buff melee

nocturne cove
#

Wait hang on no the skehmet Sargent could also have biomancy so.you could have 3 ics and the skehmet Sargent casting biomancy for strength 12 force axes toughness 8 or strength 13 mauls

keen jackal
#

OR. Or you could just bring a dreadnought

rigid narwhal
#

^

nocturne cove
#

A dreadnought doesn't get at least 11 attacks

#

But yeah

keen jackal
#

No but it'd be cheaper and have less hoops to jump through

rigid narwhal
#

Yeah but for the points you're spending on Sekhmet, you can get 2-3 dreads

hoary marten
nocturne cove
#

No the REAL stupidity is taking my unit and then BUFFING THE DREADNOUGHT

hoary marten
#

didnt know castellax could be pyskers

keen jackal
#

They are, but I don't think they can cast

rigid narwhal
#

They can, but just for purposes of their claws

nocturne cove
#

They are for the purposes of casting powers through them

#

And claws ye

hoary marten
#

they cast achea force

rigid narwhal
#

also yeah, they're Warmachine jacks.

hoary marten
nocturne cove
#

But yeah back to dreadnought stupidity

hoary marten
#

make the dread have a 4++ invul

nocturne cove
#

An osirion buffing with 2 ics and himself with biomancy could get toughness 10 strength 10

rigid narwhal
hoary marten
#

I think that was for playtest 3 probably changed in the final book

nocturne cove
#

What do they gain access to?

#

What core disciplines

rigid narwhal
#

The same stuff all our ICs do

#

there's only one list of core disciplines

nocturne cove
#

Wait ALL of them?

#

Wait hang on... that would change things a lot if all our stuff gets a discipline default

rigid narwhal
#

if that stays, Castellax are insane

hoary marten
#

I think its just word weirdly

unknown.png
nocturne cove
#

If that stays bloody tactical marines are insane

#

The sheer act of being a thousand sons legion astartes marine makes you a psyker

hoary marten
#

they noticed that

rigid narwhal
#

^

#

The fact they skipped Castellax is telling

#

considering the otherwise careful noting of unit types in this edition

nocturne cove
#

Hrmm... so castellax either by oversight or design can cast?

rigid narwhal
#

per model

nocturne cove
#

Per model ye

rigid narwhal
#

and they're a unit

nocturne cove
#

Disgusting

#

Move over iron warriors. There's a new mecha army in town...

#

So not only can you use them to cast other powers through them you can get them to cast their own powers as well ontop of that

rigid narwhal
#

Yep

nocturne cove
#

So they debuffed skehmet basically and transferred that essence into even larger, stronger and more durable combat frames...

#

It must surely be an oversight that castellax are cheaper than skehmet and osirions

rigid narwhal
#

Well...if we go off the 'GW need to sell things' usual meta...it makes sense

nocturne cove
#

They can cast. They have high toughness They get achean weaponry built into the profile and have 4+ adamantine will

#

I guess the downside is needing to babysit them

rigid narwhal
#

People already own Sekhmet, people have more regular contemptors than osirons, and not a lot of Achea got sold.

nocturne cove
#

I bought 5 because I liked the model...

ivory walrus
#

Achea were very good in 1st ed just because castellax are good. I normally run a couple

nocturne cove
# hoary marten

Wouldn't this mean default osirions also have a discipline with the option to upgrade one to have another discipline

Screenshot_20220601-160503_Discord.jpg
#

Meaning you could have three osirions casting spells or one osirion casting 2 spells

#

Plus they would get their cult abilities as well

ivory walrus
#

Nope because the rulebook says "if this option is used it cannot get powers from any other source"

#

Which makes the upgrade for a discipline only matter if you buy a cult

nocturne cove
#

Ah didn't see that...

So you can't have your cult but an osirion can have a normal spell

ivory walrus
#

It's a total oversight

hoary marten
#

you buy the cult

ivory walrus
#

I'm guessing TSons didn't get much playtest or the rules were not looked at too closely

rigid narwhal
#

the extent and nature of the nerfs screams they didn't do any testing

ivory walrus
#

The minor arcana are good but not worth 65 pts

#

15 + 50 to regain your discipline

rigid narwhal
#

and you can now have a whole talon with powers

hoary marten
#

do the khenetai get a discipline?

rigid narwhal
#

they have a power

ivory walrus
#

Nope because they keep the cult rule

nocturne cove
#

"We want to nerf them"

"OK so do that"

"In the process of nerfing them we accidentally made their walkers the best things in the game"

#

A whole talon casting powers and shooting heavy weapons

#

GW what have you done...

rigid narwhal
#

Divination double gun contemptors

nocturne cove
#

I have 7 contemptors and was going to get more now I'm going to feel bad

ivory walrus
#

Day 1 FAQ, change legion Astartes thousand sons to say "models with this rule can never use a core discipline"

rigid narwhal
ivory walrus
#

And take psychic tests at a -5 modifier

nocturne cove
#

Day 1 nerf "MODELS WITH THOUSAND SONS LEGION TRAITS DIE INSTANTLY."

ivory walrus
#

Same energy as losing the manifesting cults on 3+ nerf we got in the last FAQ

nocturne cove
#

So if fury of the ancients does eventually allow osirion that army is going to be ridiculous

rigid narwhal
#

I'm not sure how to feel about this oversight. It feels like an exploit, but GW rules are stupid

ivory walrus
#

It's 100% an oversight on the osirion but I'm not sure for achea

nocturne cove
#

It really does feel like an exploit that wasn't intended but so many of the rules seem really sub par at this point due to incredibly careful wording

rigid narwhal
#

it definitely seems like the sort of thing you don't use against anyone you enjoy playing

#

without warning them

ivory walrus
#

Like with achea they went out of the way to say cults doesn't apply, so therefore the core rules apply

nocturne cove
#

If they didn't at least sit down and look at what the interaction between thr psyker type and the core disciplines were when writing thousand sons again then it's not really our problem

ivory walrus
#

Tbf there's always been a level of playing with rules as intended in 30k. Maybe not to this degree though

rigid narwhal
#

A 5-man Achea unit can have S12, T10, 4++

hoary marten
#

Why did they have to note down it cant select arcana when you wouldnt be able to anyway?

keen jackal
#

With what, 4 biomancy and 1 telekinesis acheas?

ivory walrus
#

Have another other legions got any borked interactions to the same degree?

rigid narwhal
nocturne cove
#

Like I'd make it number 1 as a rule designer for tsons to make sure I absolutely have full control over how tsons gain psyker powers from core disciplines from the beginning and then work off of that. Make every unique tsons unit have achean psyker as a unit type

ivory walrus
#

Yeah strange because they're not characters and therefore can't get them. Might be a relic of a previous rule set where all models got an arcana

#

I'm not sure what the elegant way to FAQ this is, but it's probably a rewrite of the legion Astartes rule

hoary marten
#

Anyone else notice amon doesnt get a minor arcana

nocturne cove
ivory walrus
#

Yeah it's a bit rough for him, went from having 2 to none

rigid narwhal
#

Yeah this writing for us is all over the place