New to Iron Hands

[spice crag]

Absolutly not

Not even close

[crystal palm]

What do other legions get that buffs tank survivability?

[spice crag]

a 6+ IWND i cant consider survivability on a vehicle that can flat out blow up or be crippled to the point of uselessness but give me a sec

[crystal palm]

not worth getting them to 5+ IWND?

[spice crag]

No,since again, it either doesnt happen enough to make a difference or they blow up instantly. Remember,if someone wants a vehicle dead,generally it will be dead

Just looked through the legions and yes, you were right. On paper IH vehicles should be the most resilient, in practice they simply arent unless I include some of the Panoptica stuff

[crystal palm]

A full HSS lascannon squad can take out a 4HP tank per turn - how much anti tank do you face off against?

[spice crag]

IW and NL have been the biggest issues. DG,SoH,TS have also been issues but less so. WE Rampages cleave through armor like its nothing

[crystal palm]

I mean yeah IW will do that to vehicles

[spice crag]

Oh I know

NL too since they get +1 to armour pen when they outnumber

DG have heavy teams everywhere so they'll do that

SoH and WE will deepstrike and destroy them

TS and they psyker BS will erase armour will their deepstrikes and S10 powerfists

[crystal palm]

10 Heavy Support Squad, Artificer Armour, Lascannons 285

so need to kill 10 3+ dudes with an AA serg before they kill 300pts of tanks to be up

[spice crag]

Its why I've basically adopted a playstyle of stalling out the enemy with immortals

[crystal palm]

against deepstrike melee seems your best bet would be to have one of those ....vox scramblers? The ones that screw with reserves?

[spice crag]

I dont have to worry much about my bad luck with immortals

[crystal palm]

and then save reactions to reverse with vehicles

[spice crag]

Requires a Master of Signals

[crystal palm]

mm I have a MoS in my planned DG and AL armies

[spice crag]

Reactions with Vehicles only work with Defensive and Pintle weapons, also if i take Siver Iron Will,I cant Intercept even with augury scanners

[crystal palm]

I mean react in the move phase

just move back out of charge range

[spice crag]

No i mean you cant react period in the move phase

[crystal palm]

oh really?

That the RoW limitation?

[spice crag]

thats a warlord trait

[crystal palm]

ah

Whats the benefits?

[spice crag]

2 reactions in shooting or assault and some other stuff

[crystal palm]

is it worth if you get screwed over by DS?

[spice crag]

Out of all of my test games,it absolutely is not

[crystal palm]

I guess maybe there's a way you can position tanks near each other and near terrain that DS can't land close?

[spice crag]

Again,its my own stubbornness to want to run Immortals and Gorgons along with IH rules that makes me want to just deep throat a cactus

Have to be careful with them positioning them close to 1 another since a single blast can cripple multiple vehicles

Im under the assumption that if get a hit on all vehicles in a squad from a single barrage and rill multiple immobilizations, then it'll affect every vehicle. If thats wrong, idc since it only seems fair to my opponent

[crystal palm]

I think vehicles are left behind if they're immobalised

as in, one immobilise doesn't make the whole squad 0 move

[spice crag]

Yeah,im saying multiple immobilizations to a single squadron

You choose to separate the during your move phase

[stark latch]

Multiple immobilized means props on whoever placed that blast, didn't scatter enough to hit more than one and the got a penetrating hit on both as well as an immobilized result on both. Cause templates are the only feasible way that's happening.

[spice crag]

Im talking about blast templates specifically

[stark latch]

Yes, I know. That's all I talked about in the previous message

[glossy elk]

thanks @spice crag

I finally got my books today

been nose deep in it

being IH everyone asks me about tanks

but I don't have any at the moment

[spice crag]

IMO tanks for Iron Hands are a meme at best and a waste of points at worst

[glossy elk]

it's a bit unfluffy but i'm thinking about apothecaries in a lot of squads

it gives mileage, maybe, I'm not sure

anyone can put apothecaries in but i'm wondering if it'll be better with the scales

I'm definitely going deredo dreads

it has been

solid

[glossy elk]

What's your preferred loadout for immortals

[spice crag]

Bolters

[glossy elk]

I was all about the melee immortals, because it's cheap and it's rerolls with rerolls, and can park the moritat in there

[spice crag]

I dont like Volkites since I never seem like I have enough shots to do anything

[glossy elk]

but destroyers are more choppy

yeah I've come to the opinion

[spice crag]

Chainsword immortals are fine too

[glossy elk]

that tacticals

are probably the best troops

10 immortals in bitter iron are 205

[spice crag]

I dont use them since I like to actually shoot

[glossy elk]

10 tacticals with an apothecary is 145

and has an extra shot to boot

[spice crag]

I also use immortals as my main line troops because in the lore that's what they are

[glossy elk]

I was going to

but they are the forlorn hope

and I'm doing a ships company

[spice crag]

They are throwing themselves into the blender to die so why are they so expensive I feel

[glossy elk]

wasn't sure if it makes sense to be like 90% immortals

[spice crag]

Company of Bitter Iron looks and sounds like it should be 90% immortals

[glossy elk]

Yeah

but it does have some other sneaky benefits

for your destroyers

[spice crag]

In 1.0 it granted Hatred to your entire army

But they took that away because only The Iron Hands that Ferrus hated the most are allowed to hate the traitors for his death

https://tenor.com/view/obama-wtf-why-president-wut-gif-12221156

[glossy elk]

i feel like we need a book of grudges

[spice crag]

its really really dumb honestly

[crystal palm]

I don't think apothecaries in 10 man tacticals is the way to go

just get 15 tacticals

And I'm not sold on volkites when everyone has 3+ save or better

[spice crag]

20 man immortals with volkite are nice since its 40 volkite shots,but its too expensive in total

If it was the Volkite Caliver instead of the charger and immortals were relentless like they should be,itd be perfect

[glossy elk]

it works like a 4++ which imo is better than an extra 5 wounds?

thinking back to 6th and 5th

the best way to deal with terminators or even marines wasn't to roll ap3 heavy

it was just best to hand them fists full of dice

[crystal palm]

Apoth is 5+ FNP

[glossy elk]

which stacks

with heart of the legion

for a 4

[crystal palm]

so still get the HotL without apoth

so you're still only getting 1/3 saves from the apoth

and with 5 guys you get more shots, and attacks if you charge, and bodies when you take ID hits

[glossy elk]

there isn't a lot of ID shooting vs IH

[crystal palm]

still get basically the same number of wounds, along with more shots and attacks

[glossy elk]

not quite

that's in an ap3 vacuum

against standard shots it lets you roll after you fail your armour save

[crystal palm]

in a 10 man squad 5+FNP saves approx 3-5 wounds

so having 5 more wounds anyway is basically as good unless you're counting on RNG going in your favour

I wouldn't really take an apothecary before 15 men. Usually aim for full 20

But up to you!

[glossy elk]

you're not seeing the value in it but ok

it definitely scales better with more bodies

[proven maple]

Why moritat with immortals? Haven't gotten my liber yet

[spice crag]

Gives them counter attack (1) thats abotu it i think right

[glossy elk]

Rad grenades and counter attack

[spice crag]

oh yeah rad grenades

Assuming its a 15 man immortal squad with moritat,they can on average wipe a 10 man tactical squad

Or they can kill 2.5 terminators

[jovial locust]

Now that the stuff is iut my mates and I are starting to organise our stuff. We're in tthe middle of a SW Legion league, so we have a few months to mobilise our HH Legions.

I'm thinking of the following to start:

• 20 bolter guys
• 10 immortals (who can double up as a breacher squad)
• 10 special or heavy guys (cannot decide what guns though)
• 3 contemptor dreads (again not sure what guns to go with).

HQ is where I am stuck. I'm getting Ferrus, but I believe is not counted as an HQ. So should I go Iron Father? Also do I need much in the way of transports?

[proven maple]

Anyone have moritat stat page?

[royal hamlet]

Anyone else think the Necrotechnika is useless? It’s like perfect for a dread but only for Vehicles. Only use I could see is if, you HOTG and outflank a huuuge chunk of your army, and shoot everything at dudes that are in front of your necrotek. The healing is meh, we already do that, I only see the Ld penalty as useful.

[eager minnow]

For its cost its not useful at all,atleast in my view

[royal hamlet]

Only thing I can think of is get within the -1Ld and shoot something with a vindicare turn 2 during night fight. That’s -3Ld, but that’s like a tooooon of set up and assuming that nightfight is in effect T2. Seems like a really useless piece of equipment.

[spice crag]

Can't even begin to tell you how much of a meme that upgrade is

[royal hamlet]

Especially when it effects your own dudes

[eager minnow]

Not only that but its 50 points, which can get you more guys or weapons

[spice crag]

It's only worth using when you have mass infantry surounding the vehicle but because of the tiny range and -1ld, your guys will run away and die

You cannot have enough infantry around to make it even slightly with it

Not to mention, you need to put it on a super heavy. Anything else will die long before it can even be slightly useful

[royal hamlet]

Actually thinking about it, hypothetically, you could put it on your Spartan with your WL inside, drive it up to the enemy. With Silver Iron Will your immune to its effects so when you charge out everything within 6” of the Spartan gets -1 Ld. It’s still terrible and nowhere near its worth in points but it is something I guess.

While writing that I realized it’s only within 6” not even 12” 🙄

[spice crag]

Indeed

Also you'd have to surround the Spartan with tacticals to attempt to keep it alive

I tried it on a Mastodon with 3 20 man bricks around it and 2 dreads in it. Gained 1 hull points back before three fodder either died or ran away

[royal hamlet]

My Spartans typically live a while, granted I only used it in one game this edition so I haven’t played without armoured ceremite a ton yet, but I don’t know if it needs that much ablative wounds. Also My Iron Father has a reputation of badassery so people usually stay outside of 12” of him or his ride.

The Necrotek would actually be really cool on a dread, such a shame.

[robust hare]

My idea was to put it on a dreadnought drop pod in a Fury of the Legion list.

• The dreadnought warlord gets the Hel's Heart trait for the 12" fear (1) rule
• Night Fighting debuffs at -1 leadership
• The dreadnought is fearless so he doesn't care about leadership
• The Spooky drop pod pins everybody 6" when it arrives trying to shut down interceptor reactions.

[royal hamlet]

Fair but your gambling with a good deepstrike with a even more expensive drop pod. Still, I like the idea and it seems really cool if it goes off, I do hope it works out that way.

[royal hamlet]

Just realized our Iron Fathers get 4+ FNP when attached to a squad of immortals or tactical marines on a objective. As far as I can tell, Heart of the legion effects the whole unit.

[glossy elk]

i thought you had to have bitter duty to join immortals

[spice crag]

You do

Company of Bitter Iron let's you give bitter duty to characters for free

Giving them bitter duty in turn gives them hatred traitors so on a praetor or champion it's okay

[glossy elk]

🤯

[elfin urchin]

Yeah Bitter Iron got even better

[spice crag]

Sticking an Armistos with immortals is kind of funny since there's just a surprise lascannon in the middle of your immortal squad

They actually nerfed it from 1.0 which really annoys me

The entire army had hatred traitors. Other than that, it was the exact same

[elfin urchin]

Seems the same or better to me

[spice crag]

Glad you feel that way

Maybe I'm just expecting too much or have played enough iron hands that the bitterness has spread to me

[royal hamlet]

I think it’s worse too, but we did get heart of the legion for a 4++ on objective capping troops. How does heart work with shatter strike? I guess it’s technically not objectives so you wouldn’t get the 4+++.

[elfin urchin]

imo Iron Hands came out pretty good, really only downside is the losing of our named characters

Which hopefully we will get back in the future

@spice crag @royal hamlet Alright I'm curious what makes you guys say it's worse now?

Is it just because only Bitter Duty Iron Hands gain the Hatred now?

[glossy elk]

like thematically it makes sense that it's hatred traitors, but it's just one of those weird things

Like in MESBG someone still has to be "evil"

even if it's two good armies

[royal hamlet]

Company of bitter iron was a no brainer for me before, hatred traitors on all infantry is significantly better then what benefits it provides now. We had hatred on Gorgons, tactical marines, veterans, characters that could join any of those squads. Losing That alone is a significant debuff.

[spice crag]

Before I start, I only have 5 months of wargaming experience so I might be of the wrong mind set. Iron Hands as a legion we're never really in a good spot. They have 1 good rule, 1 okay unique, Gorgon Terminators 😫 and are just kind of there.
Head of the Gorgon rite of war was the better rite in 1.0 since vehicles were stronger so it was worth bringing down the storm with them. We didn't have much for vehicle rules but neither did anyone else. Company of Bitter Iron was the rite you chose if you like a more assault focused Iron Hands army. Everyone got hatred so you'd move your angry wall of immortals up the board and just fight.

Now (in terms of bitter iron) specifically, it only affects destroyers and immortals. Problem is Immortals don't have much for killing potential outside of bullying tactical marines. Also unless you're on an objective heart of the legion means next to nothing. If they had actually made new rules for iron hands I'd look at it differently but 2.0 Iron Hands is legit a copy paste of 1.0 with a few little sprinkles

[elfin urchin]

Idk I don't really share the negative mindset on Iron Hands

I guess it's because they remained so similar that I don't see a problem?

[spice crag]

That's my problem, they didn't change for 2.0

[elfin urchin]

I know they main thing they got is Automata and Dreadnoughts with the IH Legiones Astartes rule

[royal hamlet]

I have been playing heresy since Ferrus had his model shown. I don’t think I am as pessimistic as Sora, not saying he is wrong, but I agree with Jhogun that Iron Hands are still in a good place. losing hatred on all my infantry is a little bit annoying but at least I don’t have to take LD checks to run which I was notorious for failing. All in all some legions are worse off then us and some better but I am confident in my ability and my armies rules that this edition should still be a good one.

[elfin urchin]

And I did mainly run Immortals in my Bitter Iron list and tbh I never really used the hatred because my enemies would die before they reached me lol

[eager minnow]

As it stands I don't like either of the RoW for IH

[spice crag]

To let you understand how little they cared about iron hands, it took the "play testers" 3 or more play tests to realize that Gorgons needed stubborn.....when ever single other unique terminator had it

[glossy elk]

i mean

that's like par for the course

[elfin urchin]

I do agree taking about Hatred for any non bitter duty does really suck since it takes away so many options

[glossy elk]

my favourite thing to do is point out how all teh cool IH in the books

they all ||die||

[elfin urchin]

There's also a part of me that's glad we didn't end up like Salamanders and Raven Guard

[spice crag]

That's a fair view, again I do feel like I'm being too harsh, but then I play WE and literally oonga boonga my way into destroying everything I come across

[eager minnow]

I am amused that the IH in the black books aren't always consistent in paint scheme

For me I don't really see myself running vehicles when Dreads are so much better with the IH tactic

[glossy elk]

Gorgons are really just fancy Tartaros terminators, but like, no one runs core terminators when legion specific ones are usually way cooler

[spice crag]

Raven Guard are pretty good I'd say,while Salamanders are also one of my favorite legions so understand how I feel lol

[glossy elk]

i think it also shows

that immortals get chain bayonets

like ???

[spice crag]

I've messed with every legion in the 45+ games I've played of 2.0 and Iron Hands and Salamanders made me just feel awful for wanting to be fluffy with them

Oh course over half of those games were with Iron Hands

[glossy elk]

can you share your experience

[spice crag]

It'd take a while and I don't want to overtake you all with my complaining

[royal hamlet]

Having heavy is pretty significant now I think. Most artillery is S10+ but only AP 4, however, they usually have brutal. So a vindicator would make you take 3 saves against the blast instead of 1 2+ save. With heavy you get 3 saves and any you fail you get to reroll. Pretty significant I think when facing some of the few shots that can instant death us.

[glossy elk]

I mostly want to find out where the line of theme vs feelsbad sits really

cause people made fun of my obese dorito dread

so now

i have 2

I'll show them

[spice crag]

I'm summary, as IH I never felt like I had a place. Vehicles don't matter, the infantry I want doesn't have much for ranged firepower it also doesn't have much for Melee, dreadnoughts help but they are very strong and I don't feel right having more than 1 per 1k points. Javelins are in that same boat.

[glossy elk]

Yeah I do like heavy on them. I do wish they were ever so slightly better into a role

as it is at the moment they're a weird spot of kinda really shooty

but not shooty enough to be a shooty thing

and aren't slappy enough

to be a slap squad

[spice crag]

While yes I can outlast my enemies firepower most of the time, I can't kill them so I lose to attrition. Of course half of my salt if my horrible luck so keep that in mind

[glossy elk]

Something i've been thinking about is just bulk mans

-1 str does give some mileage

I don't know if the IH specific stuff is really worth it for points tbh

Like

I keep coming back to even the base tactical

[royal hamlet]

I don’t really understand the “vehicles don’t matter”, yes they can be one shotted but placement, cover and range are still a thing. Vehicles are still great imo, just not nearly as good as dreads.

[royal hamlet]

Rule of cool for myself, I was playing immortals when they were like 350 for a 10 man volkite squad and won all my games at events. Now a days I feel like I taken the goku training weights off.

[spice crag]

When I said that it's more of a lore and luck thing. IH are known for their mechanized assaults where is that in our rules outside of the rite of war. Where are the strange weapons a legion known for their relationship with the mechanicum. Where is our legion specific dreadnought, vehicle, automata something. Anything. They feel so incomplete

Again,I do apologize for my bitching. I know it's annoying

[royal hamlet]

For the record, I’m not saying your wrong about anything, I am just saying that my experience is different. You’ve said you’ve had bad luck so I empathize with that, some games I definitely do too but I guess my experience or maybe even my meta is vastly different from yours.

[spice crag]

I understand that. I don't have a meta since my games have only been in TTS and I'm absolutly letting my constant bad luck cloud my judgement a bit

[royal hamlet]

Also should have seen me when I saw the blood angels and sanguinius’s rules, it was and still is bad.

[elfin urchin]

Yeah in my game against the Night Lords my luck was shit

But in my 2nd game against Dark Angels things went better

Also I totally thought I was gonna lose that game but I won instead 😂

[spice crag]

It's just frustrating and annoying that IH lost their primarch at the start then kind of sat on their hands for the rest of the heresy screwing each other and themselves over. To add insult to injury, the primarch book was a hot mess and it seems like all they were known for doing was walking at the enemy getting shot until the enemy ran out of bullets

[royal hamlet]

I think we did a lot like the black books say, black library plays favourites so we didn’t really get a spotlight. Also 100% on the Ferrus book, the throne room fight was kinda cool but that entire book was literally an emperors children marine stunting on the entire legion. It took Ferrus to beat the damn guy.

[elfin urchin]

Black Books are pretty much the only thing to do Iron Hands justice

[royal hamlet]

Ferrus gets like 10 min of screen time in all the books and his primarch book is about a EC legionnaire… like WTF is that.

[spice crag]

Autek Mor reverse engineered the Gorgon armor, did he attempt to improve it no.
Shadrak lead a great fight against the traitors and slowed them down, what did he get for it, betrayal
The keys of Hel allowed the Iron Hands to revive the fucking dead and have a legion of nearly immortal Marines wearing down the traitors across the galaxy. Not to mention they could revive other loyalist forces. Did they ever do anything with it. Absolutely not

Seriously why were they even created if you were just going to sideline them

[royal hamlet]

Again we don’t have any real black library books and the black books only gave us tidbits of what happened. I am sure the Iron Hands did a lot after istvann but without a black library author that wants to write it, we don’t get to see it. Yeah 100% it sucks but that’s why we have armies, we make the story from there. my Iron Hands have won often and there’s not enough broken rules in the traitor legions that can protect them from superior iron tactics. In the lore, they have crushed plenty of traitors as far as I am concerned.

[spice crag]

Fair enough

I got some plans with panotica and Iron Hands so we'll see what I can figure out

Panoptica*

[glossy elk]

Book spoilers || it's a huge and dumb bummer that IH in every novel are either dicks or die, or both. Shadrak was sick, but gets left to die all of a sudden by some dumb dumb iron father. Goran gorgonson also dies because of dumb dumb dad. The entire crew of the sisypheum make it to the moon, and then all die. Like all these cool characters, dead. Gabriel Santar, ded. Cadmus tyro, ded. All we have is autek mor dropping a moon ||

[eager minnow]

It would be nice if we got more books to flesh out the Legions that could use it

IH obviously being one

[glossy elk]

It'd be nice to have some win stories

Instead of just

Tragedy

I didn't realise bitter iron has changed to include characters since the hh p3

But I don't know if immortals are a good plonk squad for a iron father

Terminators are kinda the same durability

Gorgons*

[royal hamlet]

Could be with proper buffing. In a 10 man unit Chuck in some melta guns, and a moritat for all the buffs. You could be Iron Hand special overwatching with 6 melta shots and a boat load of volkite. And if your on a obj you get a 4+ FNP. Don’t know if it’s that effective but in low points it could be useful.

[glossy elk]

Since a machinator array gives you melta and flamer you can take a lightning claw on an iron father

And get an extra attack for having a second specialist weapon

Or take a paragon blade if what points

[crystal palm]

Looking through everything again and I'm wondering if Ferrus might be one of the best primarchs in a fight

Swinging a S12 Ap1 Brutal(3) weapon at initiative is....brutal

And having a flat out 3++ to boot

[spice crag]

He is one of the best yea

[royal hamlet]

I think he is top tier for sure, against any of his brothers a good round of rolling could be all it takes. Its just hard against the WS8 ones when you are only on average getting 2 or 3 hits. That being said my Ferrus has beaten fulgrim in 2.0 and he is a 9-10 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 2s with a 3++, Ferrus is just built different.

[spice crag]

Horus ascended is the best

[royal hamlet]

Oh for sure, but i dont know if he should be considered in the same pool as his brothers, he was meant to be a opponent to emps

[spice crag]

Yeah

[crystal palm]

I might put Ferrus as one of the ones that could actually do some damage to ascended Horus

[royal hamlet]

I wonder with him being corrupted if the sisters with mess with his shit at all, as a primarch they cant lower his stats, but i wonder if they will effect him in another way

[royal hamlet]

Yah, with hatred from a chaplain he could definitely have a good shot at it

[crystal palm]

need to cause ~24W to Horus and with Brutal 3 that's ~9/10 hits

[royal hamlet]

not to mention how many eggs your opponent is putting into that 1000pt basket, Ideally you should do some damage with your extra 545 points too.

[crystal palm]

Massed lascannons ftw

10 HSS: ~7 hits, ~6W, ~2 through saves

Three squads of them and he's almost dead in one round

[robust hare]

Can you replace the flamer on the machinator array for a graviton shredder?

[spice crag]

no

Only a graviton gun

[robust hare]

Even with the Head of the Gorgon RoW?

[spice crag]

That should be fine

But do keep in mind, thats an extra 80 points on top of your praetor

[spice crag]

^

[spice crag]

Something I forgot,putting a moritat with immortals is a bad idea since they lose heavy

[glossy elk]

Is that the same with a regular artificer praetor in gorgons

[spice crag]

Yes unless you give the praetor a shield

[prime nacelle]

Can’t you just give the moritat a boarding shield?

[spice crag]

Dont think so

let me confirm

[prime nacelle]

I’m pretty sure you can; at least from what I’m reading in my book (unless I’m missing something which is possible)

[spice crag]

Have confirmed,you can give him a boarding shield. Its all good

[prime nacelle]

God I’m smart

https://tenor.com/view/smart-thinking-thoughts-think-ponder-gif-7713620

[spice crag]

BUT you have to give up your chainsword

[prime nacelle]

I think it’s probably worth it for the ability to bolt him to an immortal blob

[spice crag]

indeed

Honestly,id throw a champion in there instead

[prime nacelle]

I suppose it depends on how you’re gearing them

It might even be worth sticking an armistos in there just for him to be such a pain to kill since he’ll be behind 10+ immortals

[spice crag]

Suprise Lascannon

[prime nacelle]

That actually sounds rather amusing

Might have to give that a shot

[glossy elk]

Double grav pistol moritat or give him a melee weapon?

[robust hare]

Have any of you considered allied detachments from other legions?

[royal hamlet]

The obvious choice is EC but all their rules benefit specifically EC marines and traitor EC marines, I really wish you could splash some EC shriekers in some squads to buff our Iron Fathers.

[elfin urchin]

If Ultramarines are still sworn brethren then I'd say them

Especially since I'm planning on doing a band Ultramarine pirates in the future

[royal hamlet]

Yah, UM are still sworn brethren, I don't really see anything that UM do better then IH enough to take them as allies, I guess suzies are good, would be interesting for sure.

[elfin urchin]

Double the Legion special Breachers lol

[jovial locust]

https://tenor.com/view/dr-evil-austin-powers-mike-myers-gif-5537635

[glossy elk]

How high do you guys rate heavy on gorgons and immortals

cause if you put a non heavy IC in there you lose heavy

Is it worth trying to get heavy on teh ICs?

[wanton cedar]

An allied detachment with tacticals and suzerians in addition to bitter iron would be VERY tasty

[robust hare]

I'd be more likely to take a loyalist EC allied detachment if they got Rylanor in this edition

[spice crag]

Though i assumed you meant official, BUT I gotta shill for the boys

[robust hare]

Ok, deep striking Rylanor sounds hilarious and I want to do it now for the memes.

[spice crag]

👌🏾

[robust hare]

Do you think there's a chance we'll see any of the 40k skitarii units being added to the 30k range with the new Liber Mechanicum release?

I'd love to have an allied detachment of skitarii for my IH

[spice crag]

Walrus did something for that a while back but hopefully he does it again for 2.0

[crystal palm]

Am I right in saying Rylanor survived on Istavaan: that he found some ancient tunnels and went exploring before the place got bombed to fk?

[royal hamlet]

Yah, that’s essentially what happened, then he chilled in those tunnels for a long time before he lured into and bombed demon fulgrim to hell. For that he should be a honorary Iron Hand.

[royal hamlet]

What do people think of our warlord traits?

I think the first one is bad as it’s fear 1 and you can just roll a 1 for a extra attack on death, so it’s unreliable and requires the death of your warlord to be any use.

The second one is traitors only so worse then bad, it’s unusable to a true son of the gorgon (actually the best of the 3 🙄).

And the third one is middling in my opinion, immunity to debuffs is okay but it requires your opponent to have rules for you to deny. But ignoring night fight penalty to hit and difficult terrain is also nice. Top of my head it makes you immune to: SOH legion trait, EC sonic shriekers, WE ravening madmen, NL fear abilities. Anyone else think of any others? But it’s really the removing of the movement reactions all together is pretty punishing and not sure if it’s worth losing advance, withdraw and interceptor for an extra in either of the other two phases.

IH warlord traits seem pretty meh when compared to WE preators getting 6 wounds, IF preators and their units being +1 WS, Raven guard getting +2S and +2A against a enemy warlord. There just seems to be a lot of good warlord traits floating around but the IH ones seem a little underwhelming compared to the other options. Closest to the competition I would say is Silver Iron Will, but it’s the loss of the movement reactions that gets me.

[eager minnow]

I think all three are rather middling and don't really wow me

Not factoring in reactions the base three aren't exactly mindblowing either. 1+ for Combat resolution, granting pinning, or +1 Initiative to Run. All fo the options I would probably take Stoic Defender for granting pinning to the Warlord and his Unit, but still meh.

[robust hare]

In a low point game you can use the base trait that gives pinning or the traitor trait that gives preferred enemy and then attach him to a volkite culverin or lascannon HSS for some decent anti-infantry action. Even better if you can fit a cognis signum in

[eager minnow]

Yeah

[prime nacelle]

I played a 1000pt game today (albeit my first game with this system(I started in 8th 40k)) with a more assault oriented force and took silver iron will. The loss of movement reactions was so detrimental I don’t think it’ll ever be worth

I think the other two would be better no matter what, and just build your list in mind

[eager minnow]

That is my concern, the Reactions can make or break some build ideas

[robust hare]

I think that trait is more tailored towards shooting-oriented army.

[elfin urchin]

I've had good results with Silver Iron Will

[crystal palm]

Will be big into some RoW like DA Eskaton and DG Creeping Death

[royal hamlet]

I have used silver iron in 2 games, the ability to choose an extra on the other phases is great but the loss of movement was kinda huge, I still pulled off the win but only cause I had decent positioning and pulled off some longer charges. a game where I am facing deepstriking would be different for sure. My second game against EC, ignoring sonic shriekers was pretty big and allowed a unit of Gorgons with a champion and a squad of tactical marines to run Lucius and some despoilers off the board. Also not being scared of vorbak is nice, so SIW played a bit of a role there too.

[elfin urchin]

I think when Mechanicum comes out IH will also get some extra punch to them

[elfin urchin]

Personally I've never needed to use any of the movement reactions

Or never found myself in a situation where I would need to use them

I'm hoping Darkfire will still be good

[royal hamlet]

I used the movement ones when I played Ferrus, it did feel nice turning a easy charge into a harder charge from a unit of 20 assault marines. Another time was when my preator and vets dealt with some palatine blades behind my lines, an EC tac squad was moving toward my deployment and my preator was able to advance to get back up the table and back in the game.

[robust hare]

I agree. Battle-automata are probably still going to be strong in this new edition.

[elfin urchin]

And the getting Legiones Astartes rule will be amazing for the Mechanicum stuff

[robust hare]

I'm really hoping that darkfire castellax are similar to their previous incarnation

[elfin urchin]

Same here

Though it seems they will be going down to T6 which is unfortunate

[robust hare]

There's also that new Mechanicum advanced reaction that allows all nearby units to react to the shooting which can be strong.

[elfin urchin]

Absolutely and combined with Iron Hands it could be even better

[robust hare]

I think the nerf to T6 is fine since most of the time you'll want these guys in the backline and lascannons will do 2+ to wound whether they're T7 or T6

[elfin urchin]

Would've made them wound on 3+ if T7 with the Legion trait, but they'd to be in a unit with a Praevian

If Thallax stay T5 then oh boy will they be tough to shift if you bring em with a Forge Lord

[robust hare]

I'll be happy as long as they:

1. Have a way to get around the 24" night fighting max range
2. Can get BS5
3. Darkfire Cannons are still AP 2 with blind.
4. 2 of them upgraded is equivalent to a upgraded deredeo in terms of points cost.

[elfin urchin]

I wonder if the Thallax will still get to do their jump in the assault phase

[robust hare]

Jet pack infantry get to make a movement at the end of the shooting phase now

[elfin urchin]

Oooooooooooo tasty

[robust hare]

They can also move an extra 6" in the movement phase like jump infantry

[jovial locust]

Is 6 Contemptors and a siege dread too many?

[glossy elk]

Not really, a bit rude maybe

Sad that the dorito dread didn't make the cut

[jovial locust]

I'll get one as well when they come out.

I just want a fluffy army that eill look different to the Big Box armies, so Immortals, lots of dreads, and a Sicaran maybe.

Are there any other tanks, or specific speacial or heavy weapons associated with IH?

[robust hare]

In the previous edition, we had a special character who was a tank commander named Castrman Orth. He fought at the Dropsite Massacre in a Fellblade and when it was destroyed he got out and commanded a Sicaran.

As for Shattered Legions groups, I think during the Battle of Bodt, Iron-Father Autek Mor used Mastodons to advance on World Eater positions. Shadrak Meduson used a squadron of Fire Raptors to attack multiple primarchs at the Battle of Dwell.

[spice crag]

After this game today, I can definitely say, I'm done trying to make iron hands work

[prime nacelle]

No luck?

[spice crag]

I used that 5k list I put a couple days back and while I was going against lists I expected to lose again,it was just a wash

List wasn't good by any stretch of the imagination of watching a 10 man gorgon squad get out shot and out meleed by a SoH vet squad was the final nail in the coffin for me

I do apologize for the complaining but Im done trying with them

[royal hamlet]

Do you only play tts @spice crag?

[spice crag]

For now yes,I dont have minis yet so its TTS until i get a job with a disposable income

[royal hamlet]

That’s fair, at least if your done with Iron Hands you haven’t had to put too much commitment into them as of now, so that’s a upside.

I’ve got 20k of IH, I’m stuck with the 10th till the day I die.

[spice crag]

thats why TTS is just so great. It lets me try out everything before i buy. But Yeah,Im glad I haven't put any money into the legion because my god

oof

but if you like them,then its all good

[royal hamlet]

Yah, they are my fav legion anyway, whether or not I had so much. I personally can’t stand TTS, but it is good for experimenting with the different factions to see what playstyle you like.

[spice crag]

So far,I think Iron Warriors are the one for me...but I cant stand their lore,hate the primarch, dont care for the legion as a whole and think it might be Stockholm Syndrome from the 40 games or so I've lost to them thus far

[crystal palm]

Have you read the HH series?

Angel Exterminatus specifically

[spice crag]

No

I've only grabbed a few audio books on Audible. Specifically Shattered Legions,Ferrus Manus,and Titan Death. The bits of the Iron Warriors lore I've learned are from the wiki,Baldermort,Arch,Aborder Price,and small bits from Luetin09

[crystal palm]

I suggest reading them before deciding on perturabo et al

[spice crag]

I know he's written very poorly. He has like what 4 completely different personalities

[crystal palm]

Before reading the HH books I had nothing but contempt for AL and Perty and Angron (and Lorgar to some extent) but after reading their books and seeing them as fully fleshed out characters I've come around to all of them, and AL are now one of my main armies

[crystal palm]

Who Perturabo? His books is great!

[spice crag]

Fair enough

Still annoyed that IH got done so dirty in basically all aspects of the heresy and great crusade but ill check some out

[crystal palm]

I think similar with Mortarion and the DG - they're not really given time to shine properly

[spice crag]

I thought about Death Guard also, but I just dont really care for them

[glossy elk]

Yeah trying to make gorgons fill a role has been an exercise

So far I've settled on just a bully squad that requires a chaplain

cause ws4 can bite pretty hard

They're one of the only terminators, if not the only ones I've seen in the Astartes book that can combo lightning claw and a fist

so you can go to 3 fist attacks base

I figure you may as well just go close and psyche people out with disco light effect

How would you score for theme points, a company of bitter iron command squad retinue with boarding shields

Aesthetically / thematically - Cool or not cool

They are basically less tanky gorgons at that point

[robust hare]

I just played my first game of 30k and I actually did pretty well with my IH.

It was a 1k pt game and while my opponents (2v2 game) decided to take lascannon HSS squads I decided to go with a volkite culverin squad intead and it did work. While they only managed to kill a unit with the lascannon squads I was able to get 4 squad wipes and a warlord kill with the volkite culverin squad.

[glossy elk]

Yeah it's terrifying isn't it

like 50 shots

[robust hare]

Heart of the legion on our tactical squads is actually nice, because if you get to the objective then you get to combine the -1 strength with 6+++ and stubborn which all turned out to be useful for claiming the king of the hill objective.

[robust hare]

What made it stronger was that my warlord was a Master of Signals (Cognis signum so BS 5 w/ Night Vision) with one of the generic warlord traits that gave pinning to the unit and an extra reaction in the shooting phase.

[glossy elk]

An armistos also has a cognis signum but yes, it's really scary

I was considering a missile squad, but it gives me flashbacks to my most scary game back in 5th

[robust hare]

It would have been much stronger if I used the traitor warlord trait that provided preferred enemy and the extra reaction, but I was fighting against traitors so oh well

[glossy elk]

where i was against 15 missile longfangs

[robust hare]

I was also using the Master of Signals as a once per game leadership boost to my tactical squads in case they needed Ld 9

[glossy elk]

I like the MOS overall

I think it's a solid and cool pick

Definitely underrated too cause he's got the disruptor too

[eager minnow]

The MOS does seem like a nice neutral pick for an HQ

[robust hare]

Same. The next time I take a list like that I'll probably take a Whirlwind Scorpius or Arquitor Bombard to take advantage of the reroll scatter dice from his nuncio vox.

I took a spartan during the game as my go-to AT, but it got killed Turn 2 from an enemy deepstriking melta squad

[glossy elk]

Cool but ohno

I'm liking the deredeo for anti dread

[eager minnow]

I'm thinking trying a Contemptor with dual las for AT or Deredeo and seeing how that goes

[robust hare]

One of the opposing players was playing Night Lords with 2 contemptors (1 w/ dual melta cannons and 1 w/ dual assault cannons)

[glossy elk]

I have 1 deredeo but I'm thinking of getting a second, I dunno though

[eager minnow]

I'm kinda iffy on kheres atm.

[glossy elk]

it does a couple of wounds per turn on a contemptor, or I pieplate terminators/vets and fish for ID w/ breach

[robust hare]

They both proceeded to meme on my fellow Death Guard (Loyalist player)

[eager minnow]

24 in for Rending (6) while Volkites are the same cost for an extra 24 inches

[robust hare]

The dual kheres actually performed well at going after his HSS

[glossy elk]

this is where I struggle with contemptor vs deredeo

deredeo is less flexible, but for 20 points more than the dual AC it's way more shooty

[robust hare]

The problem with the deredeo is that there's no way to get around the 24" maximum range due to Night Fighting

[glossy elk]

with TL heavy bolter, plasma cannonade, and the missiles

it's as tanky as the contemptor so you can still walk it into range

[robust hare]

True, but I'd want to activate the Helical Targeting array in case of deep strikers

[glossy elk]

it's a flexible all-rounder

can you helical over 24" in nightfighting?

[robust hare]

Nope. You just get interceptor and shrouds may not be taken against it. You still are penalized for the -1 BS and max range with deredeos

[glossy elk]

don't all those penalties apply to the contemptor anyway?

if you're night fighting you're at 24" -1 anyway

[elfin urchin]

Yeah honestly I don't know why some people are having problems with Iron Hands, I've been doing fine with them so far

[glossy elk]

I'm struggling with how to kit up my gorgons

I've always found terminators to be a little weird with split capability so I'm trying to big-brain it

settled on fist + LC for 3 attacks, but now i'm ws4

[elfin urchin]

I went for 2 chainfists and 2 powerfists

Beat an all bike command squad with em

Since each attack that did get through insta killed one

[glossy elk]

Did you put anything fancy gunwise - just basic combi-bolters?

[elfin urchin]

Yeah and there was one Grav Shredder but that doesn't do much against non dreads or vehicles

[glossy elk]

How'd you find the punching up to ws5 or did you concuss them?

[elfin urchin]

It really did suck to only hit on 5s

[elfin urchin]

I completely forgot tbh

I think the grav didn't

[glossy elk]

Yeah i've been running the fear w/l trait to try get lucky

with a concuss

[elfin urchin]

Yeah might be something to try and go for

[glossy elk]

yeah, i don't think we can rely on it

but if you get it, great

[elfin urchin]

Yeah

I mainly won through the instant death

Gorgons were too tough with their 2+ and 5+++

[royal hamlet]

Does fear work there? it says it effects leadership when making, morale, regroup and pinning. Not sure it works with just regular leadership.

[glossy elk]

you are correct

i just checked

[royal hamlet]

Also had good luck with Bio libby for T5 on gorgons to get the full advantage on FNP and 2W. most enemy termies will deal 1 wound per hit, ours will do 2 wounds with instant death for a better combat res. I have swept a bunch of stuff. but I am not sure still, still gotta play more 2.0

[glossy elk]

Has the sweeping been helpful?

[royal hamlet]

Oh yah, 100%. Units that are still half alive being put to the sword/fist a turn earlier is great.

[glossy elk]

thanks, i appreciate it

i'd like to tool up the gorgons to be part of the IF's group

just looks cool

but if he's in cataphractii they can't sweep

if he's in tartaros they lose the bonus for heavy

so I have to put him in cataphractii and swap it for gorgon

or use an artificer one and give him a breacher shield to keep heavy on the squad

could just give up the heavy bonus on the squad

[glossy elk]

I was thinking about throwing in a chaplain for hatred everyone

might be a way to deal with being ws4

[royal hamlet]

Problem with 2.0 is all the consuls are so good it’s hard to pick which ones make the cut.

I never had a chaplain before because everything had hatred with COBI, still gotta paint mine.

[eager minnow]

Chaplain might be great in a Despoiler or Vet Squad

[elfin urchin]

Glad a lot of the Consuls are becoming useful

I have one with a missile launcher, might use him if an Armistos can take one

[eager minnow]

Nice

How are we feeling on the Iron Father? Worth his points? Requires a specific build list?

[royal hamlet]

I always take a Iron Father, bling him out to high heaven and try to challenge the enemy warlord. Smart? not really. But my opponents at my club all fear him now and either avoid him like the plague, or get blood drunk trying to kill him, both have their advantages.

[eager minnow]

Haha nice

[elfin urchin]

I say it's always worth it

It's a lot of points but you get more than enough to make up for it

[eager minnow]

I'm thinking of taking 1 at 2k points. Any lower and I'm liking the MoS

[elfin urchin]

Yeah Praetors get unwieldy in lower points games

[elfin urchin]

How's the MoS now anyways, he do anything new?

[eager minnow]

For 35 points he has a cognis signum, vox disruptor array, augury scanner, and nuncio vox and the Strategic Comms rule at the cost of having a slightly more restrictive weapon list and can't take a shield or bike

The Strategic Comms rules lets you reroll reserve rolls, and once per turn grant their LD or the LD of any model in their unit to any unit that makes a morale or pinning test

Even without the reserve re-roll I think he is a great support HQ

If he had kept his playtest reserve debuff he would have been even better, but alas

[elfin urchin]

That's pretty cool

Might be fun to make one of every Consul

[eager minnow]

If you have the models and desire, go ahead

[elfin urchin]

Yeah shouldn't be too difficult

Definitely my go to HQs are Iron Father, Forge Lord, and Praevian

With a Moritat being fourth for something more like Bitter Iron

I do wish that Immortals could take chainaxes and volkites

Or am I misremembering again?

[eager minnow]

Misremembering what?

[elfin urchin]

If they can take chainaxes

It might have just been chain bayonets

Which I know they can't use since they have the shield

[eager minnow]

They can take Volkite Chargers for 2 pts each or replace their bolter for a chainsword

They can take both types of bayonets

Though as you said they really can;t use

[elfin urchin]

Ah yeah that's pretty garbo

Does suck that they have to be either full shooty or full melee

[eager minnow]

Mmhmm

But then I see them as walking bricks. Have them sit on an objective and fire shots when they can

[elfin urchin]

Oh yeah I take volkites any day of the week

[eager minnow]

I plan to play around with a TSS with chargers and see how they do

[elfin urchin]

TSS?

[eager minnow]

Tactical Support Squad

[elfin urchin]

Ahhhhhhh okay

Yeah chargers are good, I like em

Many Terminators and marines have fallen to their might when I shoot with them

[eager minnow]

Nice

[glossy elk]

Tbh I'd be happy of they could just use their bayonets

[prime nacelle]

It's all I wanted...

[glossy elk]

Do you think it's an oversight or they are meant to be able to use them

[elfin urchin]

Hopefully will get FAQed or something

[glossy elk]

Yeah

Maybe worth sending emails into gw

Asking

So it gets faqd quickly

[elfin urchin]

I use volkites so not as big of an issue for me

[glossy elk]

You rate it?

[elfin urchin]

Volkites are 10/10

[glossy elk]

I have yet to do mine, still sub assembled

Couldn't decide what load out

Might just do 10 of each

[elfin urchin]

I wasn't exaggerating about the amount of terminators and marines I've killed with volkite

They melt when they get heat by the heat wave

[glossy elk]

In a 15 right?

What special weapons do you run

[elfin urchin]

What I do hope for is that chainsword would be changed to be replacements for bolt pistols instead so I can have both lol

[elfin urchin]

Yeah blocks of 15 and I run melta guns

2 wounds don't mean much any you get hit by em 😂

[glossy elk]

I was tossing up with melta or grav for some dangerous terrain shenanigans

[elfin urchin]

And gives you good defense against dreads and tanks

[elfin urchin]

I prefer the melta since it will be more versatile imo

But the grav is good if you really want to kill vehicles and dreads

They'll avoid the squad like the plague or try their damnest to kill them lol

[royal hamlet]

the loss of breaching charges on immortals hurts, I used to take out sehkmets with those things

and world eater assault squads, immortals were key against WE

[toxic pasture]

The only problem I see is that I don’t think you can have thunder hammers on the command squad in power armour, which sucks as that’d be such a cool looking unit. The army itself would be a really cool ZM force tho

[toxic pasture]

^

Speaking of that actually, would you be able to give your praetor bitter duty in that list or would it break the command squad

[glossy elk]

not in the command squad

you can give it to him but he gets relegated to immortals or destroyers

[spice crag]

Giving a praetor bitter duty will not allow a command squad to join him since a model with the Bitter Duty rule cannot be apart of a unit without the rule

[glossy elk]

What terminator set do you pair with gorgons for bits - tartaros or indomitus?

[spice crag]

Indomitus would be better since Gorgon armor is based on it

[glossy elk]

this looks like gorgon chest with cataphractii legs and shoulders hey?

Probably better to ask in conversions, so I'll ask there

[robust hare]

So Word Bearers just got their new Exemplary Battles unit for the new edition and I'm happy that GW decided to give priority to a legion that hasn't gotten a Exemplary Battles unit yet compared to updating a previous unit's rules.

Hopefully this means we'll get our unit soon

[eager minnow]

Indeed

What would be a good unit for us? Something focusing on melee to focus on the hatred and anger they feel after Ferrus' death?

[royal hamlet]

Lol I would love some god damn MORLOCKS or keys of hel guys, either of those would be sick.

[eager minnow]

These look great, but ugh resin. I plan to kitbash my own with parts from all three other termie parts/

[eager minnow]

That would be nice, souped up Gorgons

[spice crag]

Personally,Id say they'd need to redo Iron Hands not copy and paste like they did the first time. Either make them a shooting army whos specialty is winning shootouts because they can out endure the enemy or make them a melee army,who again win fights by out enduring the enemy.
Also,in Company of Bitter Iron, give Gorgons Bitter Duty, please

[eager minnow]

Alas I don't see them redoing the Iron Hands anytime soon

[spice crag]

Yeah I know

If they don't,I fucking will

[royal hamlet]

Even just a cataphractii command squad that all have cyber fams for 3++, basically like IH huscarls but maybe with some unique stuff.

I also like IH the way they are. I wouldn’t want them to change outside of better elite units which the exemplary battles can fix

[spice crag]

That's fair, it's a personal thing for me

[eager minnow]

If they gave everything in the IH the -1 Str against shooting and got rid of the IWND 6+ for Vehicles I would be happy

I do think the graviton weapons need a change because as is they are too expensive and situational for me to want to use

[royal hamlet]

Armour 16 essentially front facing Spartans… tasty.

I think grav is immensely useful, just gotta drive up, jump out and kill some armour.

[spice crag]

Only problem with that -1 STR on everything,is that A kratos or spartan would be neigh unkillable

The problem with grav is that its only good against dreads,automata and vehicles at extremely close range. If it actually had infantry killing potential it would be fine. Not to mention its 20 points per model......yeah no thanks. A single Lascannon HSS will do the same job,from a much safer range for much cheaper

[royal hamlet]

I think a FNP or shrouded rule for our tanks would be better. A 1/6 or 1/5 chance to shrug off incoming fire. 1/6 seems more balanced, 1/5 would be rough.

[spice crag]

Can tell you,with Kardozer having that 5+ invul on 3 models with the vehicle type HELPS so damn much

A 5+ army wide would be dangerous BUT it would actually give IH (vehicles) the durability they are supposed to have

[eager minnow]

That I think would be better than IWND

[spice crag]

In terms of units,Medusans I still feel should be cheaper maybe 190 points and Gorgons....theres so much Id change I dont want to start

[eager minnow]

I think Gorgons should be 3W. They are augmented so much pain wouldn't really stop them

[spice crag]

Maybe Battle Harderned (1) rather than 3W

[eager minnow]

Thats also an option. Something to improve their tankiness, and give them WS 5

[spice crag]

Would still let them die from mass wounds but let them tank las cannons

The WS 5 I'

[royal hamlet]

Problem is Gorgons weren’t really the elite, the elite were morlocks. I really do think we have a pretty good chance of getting them in a campaign book or exemplary battle.

[eager minnow]

Yeah

[spice crag]

The WS5 I'm a little iffy on since from my understanding they are supposed to be random memebers of the legion that survived the surgery not really vets. Rather,I'd give them a special rule were the field generated from their suit has a Concussion (1) effect. If the enemy fails their save,they are dropped to WS 4

[eager minnow]

Thats an idea

[spice crag]

Then I'd make the blind drop to activating on a 6+ but it you get to roll a dice for every single save you make

Maybe increase the range to 12 inches

[royal hamlet]

A morlock ws5 command squad like unit with battle hardened and the unit leader has a cyber fam, hnnnnghg.

[eager minnow]

Would be tasty

[spice crag]

If you guys want, I can write down some stuff for IH and show you down the line. If you liked what I helped out with for Autek Mor,Kardozer and Casterman

[eager minnow]

Sure, go ahead

[royal hamlet]

I honestly think Gorgons are fine, giving us morlocks gives us the elite termies we need. Gorgons can do other shit then fight enemy elites, maybe a row that makes them line troops would be beneficial for them or like Sora said, giving them bitter duty in cobi.

[spice crag]

Had a random idea while I was in the shower for an IH special bolter than combined Grav technology into an actual bolter

[royal hamlet]

I thought the mornival flashette bolters were cool, can’t take FNP against them. But I think that would be gross and not fun to play against.

[spice crag]

yeah that sounds wild

[robust hare]

I like the idea of Morlocks being a command squad equivalent with Battle-Hardened (1). They would get the 6+++ from Ferrus and have the 4++. I also think that Ferrus giving +1 to FNP rather than just a 6+++ would make taking our special units more worth it.

I do agree that at this point our legion seems a bit aimless. We're essentially a shooting army that's not great at shooting and using our special grav weapons requires us to get close enough to the enemy to get charged where the grav unit might as well have been a suicide unit.

For Medusan Immortals, I'd like to see them become more of a breacher/destroyer hybrid unit with counter attack (1) and access to chain axes for 2 ppm to get around the loss of chain bayonets. Possibly rad grenades as purchaseable upgrade on the sergeant?

[spice crag]

The fact that they lost the ability to cause disorganized charges by existing hurts

[royal hamlet]

I like the idea of chain axes but both chain axes and rad grenades is a little much. Hatred, with wounding on 2s rerolling would be gross.

Yah, I am going to always miss the defensive grenades.

[elfin urchin]

Let's hope the one for the Iron Hands isn't as bad

[spice crag]

I now point at Rampagers very very aggressively

That hurt more,are faster,last longer in fights and can deepstrike if you're willing to drop the points

Because someone thought this was a good idea of a weapon to give to a unit with 4 attacks on the charge for free

[royal hamlet]

But those are WE, that’s their whole shtick. As much as I would love it, WE shouldn’t be where we draw equivalents too. I think just having chainaxes would be cool.

And yah, they forgot to think when they did the falax blade.

[spice crag]

I know,Im just sad that they have their specialization and are great at it.....meanwhile

[elfin urchin]

Iron Warriors? 🤔

[spice crag]

What about them

[elfin urchin]

If there's a Legion we should draw from or look at

Since they are shooty as well

[spice crag]

Wait,why am i here complaining,I abandoned the 10th. I will now shut up and step back

Please continue your conversation without my input

[elfin urchin]

You can never run from being a son of the Gorgon

[royal hamlet]

I think imperial fists would be a good army to draw from. Iron Hands have a lot of power zweihanders/ greatswords in their armoury, gaining access to those as a legion weapon that could be taken as sarge weapons or weapons that a special squad of Templar brethren like badasses could be a cool thematic addition without taking away the theme of the iron hands. Still tough and ridged but also enforce the Scottish themes of the IH with big fuckoff swords.

Power swords with +1S, sweeping blow and rending 5+. I dunno, could go the executioners blade way too and give them +1 strength and murderous strike 5+ instead but that’s a little much I think.

[glossy elk]

Isn't teh fluff for morlocks they nerded out making their own weapons

and going deep into that route

[robust hare]

Do you have a source? Not questioning you. I'm just hungry for more Morlock lore.

[glossy elk]

the thing I find a bit sad imo is that when profiles start to match up to others

[wanton cedar]

I really hope our exemplary battles unit is good

[glossy elk]

Like gorgons are pretty much the same as ebon keshig

but without the extra attack

[wanton cedar]

my iron hands are already shelved (although that's due to me hating my chosen paint scheme)

[robust hare]

Imagine if they gave us the Helfathers

[wanton cedar]

right now the only good thing is a retinue command squad

WS5 2+ is what you want

[glossy elk]

I don't, i think @spice crag was is the one with the details

[robust hare]

Ah

[glossy elk]

iirc it's in the HH books

[wanton cedar]

but yeah, morlocks for exemplary battle

kthnx

[spice crag]

Whats up

I was pinged

[glossy elk]

Was it you who was talking about Morlocks making their own weapons

Like going all artificer on them

[spice crag]

So,its not just Morlocks. The entire legion is required to make their own weapon before they are allowed to become Iron Hands

[glossy elk]

Is that where the medusan greatswords and stuff come in

[spice crag]

Yes,it was in the Grey Talon book from the Shattered Legions

[glossy elk]

It'd actually be pretty nice to have another AP2 or rending melee weapon option

[spice crag]

On god if they dont let Morlocks be a Retinue Im fighting someone

[glossy elk]

I was bummed Gorgons couldn't be one for an iron father

though idk what makes more thematic sense

[spice crag]

Wait,why am i complaining. I have answered the question,alert me if any others I will now disappear

[glossy elk]

iron father with his beepboop boys - gorgons, or an iron father with immortals

[glossy elk]

ZM/Centurion style 2K (No AV, T6+ wounds are 1:100)

Cata Centurion Delegatus (Warlord)
Cyber Familiar, Thammer, minor combi
150 pts

Cata Command Squad
2 extra catas for 5 total
4 minor combi bolters, 5 lightning claws
245 pts

Cata Centurion Herald
Gorgon armour
Thammer, Cyber Familiar
140 pts

Gorgons x 6
2 grav guns, cyber familiar, vexilla, 5 lightning claws, 4 minor combi
340 pts

Immortals x 10
2 x Grav guns
235 pts

Immortals x 10
2 x Grav shredders
7 x Volkite Chargers
Powerfist + Artificer
284 pts

Legion Support Squad x 5
Augury Scanner, Nuncio Vox, Plasma guns
155 pts

Deredeo Talon - 2 Doritos
Plasma Cannonade & Aiolos ML
450 pts

1999 pts

I'm umming and arring on taking out the herald and cata command squad, turning the delegatus into an iron father, and just having 300 points to spend on stuff

that's roughly what the different breaks down to be

[quartz flower]

Could Take the Herald and the Support squad out and put in a Legion Mortificator and His contemptor dreadnought with the It Will Not Die (5+) rule

Mortificators look after the very old dreadnoughts

so it's quite cool thematically imagining this old bitter veteran dreadnought and his companion helping him stay sane

[glossy elk]

I think I can put him with the doritoes

thematically I like the solo iron father - just vibes bitter iron

I don't think I really have anything to deal with a leviathan

by restriction I'll only be facing 1 in any given list

[stark latch]

Do flamers still get shred in ZM? Could be fun to drop in a 10 man support squad with flamers if it's not TOO competitive of a game you're playing.

or upgrade to grav shredders to deal with Noughts

[glossy elk]

Do you think it's enough?

I really wish heavy or support squads could take grav guns

it'd be an auto take

[stark latch]

Head of the Gorgon RoW lets you replace infantry flamers for grav guns or grav shredders for +15 ppm

[quartz flower]

There’s also the moritat that can take dual grav pistols

[glossy elk]

yeah it's a strong vibe - i'm considering it for higher points but it could work out well in ZM

Have to retool the immortals to be a 15 man squad backed up by tacticals

[stark latch]

Not saying you have to. I just enjoy throwing ideas around

[glossy elk]

Yeah, I appreciate it

it's very bigbrain

Cause it can play into other parts of the army by just handing out concussive

or even matting an area in dangerous terrain

[stark latch]

Haha, after I saw the RoW say it was possible I started wanting to add to ZM lists. My local group LOVES ZM.
Usually we have flamers, heavy cc, and hard hitters within the limits. (I think it was based on the official release from 1.0 pdf. Don't remember exactly cause been a year or so since we had time to play)

[robust hare]

In response to vehicles being more vulnerable in this new edition, are any of you considering using artillery platforms like arquitors or the scorpius?

I have an idea to use them as part of a Head of the Gorgon list and hide them behind buildings while direct fire heavy support is done with the darkfire castellax you get from the RoW.