Warhammer 40,000 - Scouring Amazon Series

[loud cipher]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywJjBc4ZRUQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddiOuhsKXiE

Summary of the alleged rumours above;

• reiterates previous Amazon rumours, r.e. who has been approached (Brad Pitt).

• has now heard that the original plan was to do a prequel to Eisenhorn; now scrapped.

• reiterates rumour regarding focus on the Scouring.

• has heard rumours that Karl Urban has been approached

• has heard rumours that Ana de Armas has been approached

• has heard that scripts are now underway

• has heard an announcement of what's being covered will come this year

[slow knot]

This stands to reason, given that Amazon also went with thinly-established eras for both Fallout and LotR. It gives the writers a lot of latitude, since there's very little cannon to get "wrong."

[lucid token]

There is a lot for both of those examples tho

[slow knot]

More is undefined than defined though.

For Fallout, Pre-war and post-NV were big question marks.

PotR had only a rough conical outline to work with.

The Amazon MO seems to be to take a non established region of the setting and plant their flag there.

So we'd see something like the Unification Wars, Great Crusade, or the Scouring. And they're not going to do UW or Great Crusade - they're too "different" to the brand identity. GC would be conquering different Star Trek aliens (without models) and UW wouldn't have Marines.

[lucid token]

Except the West Coast was established. Fallout 1, 2 and New vegas all set up a lot that amazon just kinda ignored

Although the fallout show has bethesda to be blamed for a lot too. Its very likely warhammer will be more fortunate

[slow knot]

"The West Coast" is a big region, and the show explicitly takes place in a period not covered by any specific game.

They intentionally set both their nerd shows in a largely blank page.

There's zero reason to assume they wouldn't do the same again.

[lucid token]

The show takes place where fallout 1 and 2 both take place. In and around LA

Sure the time period isn't explored as its set after the latest game, fallout 4. But there very much are things established to be there and that has happened there.

They can still do what you're saying though of course

[severe sphinx]

Scouring also has the benefit of being able to bring in some of the big names from the Horus Heresy like Sigismund, Abaddon, Valdor, all of the surviving primarchs, etc, without getting dragged into the quagmire that would be trying to retell the Horus Heresy

Tbh, the main point I can see against the Scouring is that it wont include primaris marines.

Unless it turns out that Cawl works very fast

[hollow drum]

the scouring lasts 100 years and some primaris like charon were children on calth during the opening of the horus heresy

its entirely possible we’ll get a scouring series focusing on primaris marines like charon (potentially even the man himself) to tie it to both 40k and space marine

its the kinda perfect way to knit a lot of 40k projects together

[lucid token]

that would be a really bad retcon

[stable kernel]

Oh I'll definitely watch it then. You don't have to sell it to me.

[severe sphinx]

I meant more so a point against it in GW’s eyes. Since 40K is their main sci-fi setting, they’d likely want their marines in the new show to match what people will see in 40K, so that means Primaris

Would be a bit strange for people to watch a scouring TV show, go to the main entry point for sci-fi Warhammer (40K), and then see a bunch of marines that aren’t the ones from the show

[stable kernel]

Cavil is a firstborn enjoyer + custodes. Any project he is in wouldn't have primaris. He will pull viewers regardless, then that lets GW make a 40k show that won't bomb first up.

[north onyx]

I'd hazard to guess what is or isn't going to be in this series is firmly out of Cavill's hands.

[severe sphinx]

Saying that Cavill is a firstborn enjoyer and therefore he will veto primaris in the show seems like a really big stretch. Ive heard nothing to that effect, and personally I havent even heard that Cavill prefers firstborn over primaris

[north onyx]

The choice of it being the Scouring rather than HH or 40k proper also may very well be because that's what GW and Amazon managed to negotiate copyright-wise.

[severe sphinx]

And as Blessed said, what is and isnt allowed in the show is definitely the domain of GW. GW is very controlling of their IP after all

Of course they will probably work with Cavill and the rest of the producers to make something good and ensure proper communication (like they did with SM2), but at the end of the day what GW says is what goes

[stable kernel]

why would primaris appear in a scouring series? Unless its that one guy Cawl made as the first primaris that is his bodyguard.

[severe sphinx]

I never said primaris would appear in the scouring

What I said was that the main drawback I can see for a scouring show (from GW's perspective) is that there isnt primaris in the scouring

[north onyx]

I'd imagine Amazon tried to push a toy deal onto GW, which would've meant Amazon would get a cut of what counts under the 40k copyright registration for merchandise. By technicality, miniatures still very much count as toys, and thus would legally have to be treated as such.

Now if they did that with either mainline 40k or HH it would've been kind of disasterous. So they chose to instead set it up in a separate thing with most likely a separate new series of trademarks and copyright licenses. Ala, the Scouring.

[stable kernel]

Ah, so if we get a scouring TV show no chance for scouring old world style tabletop rules. nice. 😭

[severe sphinx]

Also since apparently I should have clarified when I wrote it, this was a joke

[north onyx]

Oh no it will most likely get both a tabletop ruleset and miniatures released to cross-promote.

Ones most likely going out of production once the contracts expire.

[stable kernel]

https://tenor.com/view/walter-walter-white-falling-walter-white-sad-hank-death-breaking-bad-gif-11929995292147864802

[severe sphinx]

I doubt amazon would be able to get a contract like youre thinking of. After all, theyre not the ones in the position to make demands. GW owns the IP and isnt dependent on amazon to promote their IP, so they can set the terms

There's likely little amazon could do to force something like that after GW says fuck no try again

[north onyx]

I think who is or isn't in charge there was decided by who has the better lawyers and more money.

Also them d*cking about this much with licensing would neatly explain why it's been taking so long and why they scrapped the one explicitly set in 40k proper.

[severe sphinx]

Not really. GW already makes a lot of money and has other successful 3rd party sources like Space Marine 2 to promote their IP. They dont need amazon, so if they cant get terms they like then they can just walk away

Also, warhammer is already on amazon video. Secret Level's warhammer episode exists, and that has primaris in it

[north onyx]

Secret Level's kind of just a big Sony advert tho

Or rather "here's the stuff you can get on PS5!"

[severe sphinx]

Didnt realize D&D was on PS5 lol (iirc one of the episodes was D&D)

[stable kernel]

yea but amazon is the big leauges to show all the IP to normies. Amazon has a stronger hand, netflix is less relaible, disney would crush GW in negotiations. W+ is amature hour media production, GW isn't spending the kind of money they need to there its sho string budget + couch change + lint budget there.

[lucid token]

He is showrunner

[north onyx]

Yup. And not an executive or copyright manager. Ala, powerless.

[lucid token]

That is the role of the person in charge of what the show is about, so he has a lot of say.

[severe sphinx]

And videogame devs still have executive team leads, but sabre still had to listen to GW on what they can or cannot include in SM2

They may have a lot of say, but GW has the final say

If GW says no terminators, then there are no terminators

[lucid token]

Games aren't shows. He's not the only one in charge but showrunner matters a lot in regards to what a show is

[lucid token]

Yeah probably, but they'd not put Cavill as showrunner if they didn't value his potential input on the show

[stable kernel]

yea GW keep a tight leash. Inquisitor myrtr devs said they couldn't get rid of the tech priest pope hats because GW said no.

[severe sphinx]

Im not saying that they wont work with Cavill. What Im getting at is that, regardless of what Cavill thinks (Ex: This whole "Cavill likes firstborn so he's going to veto primaris" idea) if he clashes with GW then GW gets the final say

[lucid token]

Well yeah

[north onyx]

Not to mention if he steps out of line it takes very little to kick him to the curb and hire somebody who'll do what the contracts instruct them to do.

[stable kernel]

They can just keep Cavil occupied with scouring. Anyone else could do a 40k series later.

[lucid token]

But if anyone could veto that it'd be the show runner, but thats also not how a show is made.

[severe sphinx]

Im also not sure where this whole "Cavill hates primaris" idea came from, cause this is the first Im hearing about it

[lucid token]

No that'd tank the show

Without the same showrunner the red thread binding episode together would change, since making sure that thread is followed is the job of the showrunner. If you change show runner mid production you're shooting yourself in the foot. GW knows that.

[north onyx]

They can replace him with somebody more famous who won't step out of line and the question of star power is solved.

[severe sphinx]

Didnt the star wars sequel trilogy do that? We all saw how that turned out

[lucid token]

Movies don't have show runner as a job, but yes basicly.

[north onyx]

Also they haven't even started yet.

[lucid token]

They're writing the script.

[stable kernel]

If they want to axe Cavil, they just need to extend the inital season so its self contained story, no need for a 2nd etc and his continued involvement is the best way if they think he is a trouble maker. Leaves normally, no one none the wiser.

[severe sphinx]

Ya I know the title is different, but the core role exists in both settings

[lucid token]

Yea. Disney killed their golden goose by not having a guy ensuring point A led to point B and B to C

And if GW kicks Cavil they'll do the same. The reason Cavill was given the job so long before anything of substance has come out is because the show runner is one of the earliest people you hire.

[stable kernel]

I think GW picked Cavil because- super fan, will stand up for GW to amazon in the negotiations etc.

[lucid token]

And he is liked by the fans. All three things a that a company will really care about. And he seemingly has a genuine appreciation for warhammer, but thats less important for GW I think

[hollow drum]

also he’s repeatedly said he likes the whole franchise, if he has a fondnesss for firstborn its purely because he grew up with them

[dusty shard]

IDK where you got this from, he's an executive producer

[lucid token]

Oh shit my bad.

[dusty shard]

Showrunner is effectively the lead writer, which I don't believe he is qualified for or necessarily interested in. And I don't think they've announced one yet

[lucid token]

i forgot

[dusty shard]

That being said, I have the impression that Hank has a lot of sway on this. It sounds like he is more or less their gauge for what the community would or would not want

[loud cipher]

A showrunner is the top-level executive producer of a television series. The position outranks other creative and management personnel, including episode directors, in contrast to feature films, in which the director has creative control over the production, and the executive producer's role is limited to investing. In scripted comedy and drama TV shows, the showrunner also usually serves as the head writer (or its most prolific writer). The role of a showrunner is not present on all television series, especially outside the United States; this article describes the nature of the role where it is present.

For comparison, Tony Gilroy was showrunner on Andor.

Or Noah Hawley on Alien: Earth.

It's unclear what variety of executive producer Cavill will be.

Cavill's prior experience with the showrunners on Witcher may lead to him angling for the position himself, or negotiating in people that can be trusted.

[lucid token]

i certinly hope so

would hate to see another role for him tanked by incompetant morons. the man deserves a success

[lucid token]

Hank?

[dusty shard]

Short for Henry

[lucid token]

Huh

[dusty shard]

Showrunner is really a writer's position though, so it wouldn't make sense for him. I think as an executive producer he'll have plenty of input, and if GW and Amazon aren't willing to hear it, they probably wouldn't hear it from the showrunner anyway

[last hawk]

I don't expect they'll make some convoluted story about Primaris, nor do I expect they'll plant their flag in Firstborn.

Rather, I think GW has largely just swept the distinction under the rug now. That was a transitional thing.
Nowadays Space Marines are just Space Marines. That's how the novels and stuff show them

[stable kernel]

"Nowadays Space Marines are just Space Marines. " I'll believe that when I start seeing studio members running mk III as gravis for example.

Or using firstborn models as stand ins for the primaris ones, it can be done in most cases.

[lucid token]

I'll belive it when all marks of armor are sold in 40k boxes at half content but more than half the cost

[last hawk]

Oh Space Marines are 'Primaris' as we know it - but they're just referred to as Space Marines and they include a lot of older design elements.
We've seen Primaris with Mk.III helmets and stuff

[ebon dawn]

why would the first major warhammer tv series be based on an obscure part of the lore that requires that you have the whole understanding of what happened during the great crusades and subsequent horus heresy before you can really get why the scouring happened after the fact?

at least when lord of the rings dropped you could easily get by NOT having to have read the Silmarillion, Children of Hurin, the fall of Gondolin, the Lost tales etc just to understand

[last hawk]

I don't see why the lore of the Heresy is important for The Scouring, let alone the Great Crusade

[north onyx]

Licensing, copyrights and toy deals.

Still comes off as the most sound explanation, assuming it's not bullcrap.

[last hawk]

There's clear good guys and clear bad guys
It's a very clear foundation

[ebon dawn]

"Why are the good guys relentlessly pursuing the bad guys? What did they do?"

"Who is horus, why was he important?"

"Why are the good guys torching worlds of innocent people or heavily punishing them for being remotely involved with the bad guys?"

"Why did the bad guys do what they did?"

"Why are the good guys not actually acting like good guys at all? Why is everyone mad and actively destroying the empire they made?"

The scouring requires context, it's role in a vehicle to help in the transition of 30k lore to 40k lore. You cant just dump someone in the middle of that and expect them to get what is going on

You want a more cohesive plot? Put the series during the time of Goge Vandire. At least that is its own self contained plot that could have the inclusion of aliens and heretics in a game of thrones esque series of political intrigues

[loud cipher]

I mean, you absolutely can.

As you can condense the Heresy into an all of about five minute summary setting the background, lol.

Push it to eight to ten.

[north onyx]

Or feed it bit by bit in vague details established fans get but new people can go off of to pursue themselves.

[ebon dawn]

not when your "good guys" are straight up genociding entire worlds for being involved with the traitors or enslaving them, you'd need to drop pretty substantial context for why the 'good guys' would be resorting to such methods

[stark jungle]

Seasons 1-3 are the heresy, 4-5 are the scouring (condensed) 6-finale are 40k leading up to the fourth tyrannic war. Which the show will end with

[north onyx]

Also.

This is rather vague still isn't it? What's the guarantee the main plot is the Scouring itself instead of just being the background with a separate mini-story being the focus?

Like yeah they'll maybe discuss "oh we're driving them to Sebastus IV as we speak my lord" whilst the actual plot's power struggle political drama about ship crews or something.

[ebon dawn]

I think a tv series in the setting would do better starting with a more contained plot that only requires that you know what warhammer 40k is at a surface level at best.

Horus heresy isnt really surface level stuff beyond the original blurb they put out about it when they first came up with the horus heresy as a lore footnote in the front of the codecies

Goge vandire is a story about a man and his lust for power bringing an empire to its knees before his need for power drives him insane as getting what he wanted proved to be basically impossible for one mortal man to truly comprehend and control.

It's got civil war, its got political intrigues, its got religious commentary, it involves pretty much all facets of the imperium in some regard in a neat and tidy way that helps introduce what the imperium is about to new comers, it gives you an idea of the sheer vast scale of the imperium and the power Goge intends to wield for his own, and you could have a very good back and forth between goge and the first sister of battle and her struggle to come to terms with her own sense of duty to Goge Vandire vs her duty to the imperium.

[stable kernel]

They can just do a text flyover like star wars does it. Its not hard. Or the pilot episode will have a narrator explaining for 3-4 mins, then a cut down explanation at each episode start. Many ways to do it.

[halcyon matrix]

I feel like an iquistor investigating like a genestealer cult infestation is the safest bet. Lets you introduce more factions slowly as he gets closer to the source.

[last hawk]

Films/series really don't need to explain absolutely everything right away

Why are the good guys relentlessly pursuing the bad guys?
Well they're covered in blood head to toe, wearing human skins, and covered in spikes. They look really evil, they probably deserve it.

Addition context can easily be added in "finally, we've caught them, we shall have vengeance for Calth"

[lucid token]

I also think a lot of people today might like a bit of mystery and ambiguity

[last hawk]

You cam condense the heresy to one line of dialogue.
"Horus turned traitor and half the legions joined him in a giant civil war"
Which is basically what the Heresy was for years before detail was slowly added over time.

[ebon dawn]

None of this would adequately justify what you would be actually seeing in a scouring scenario

This is like lord of the rings but you get a brief one paragraph contextual piece of the entire story of lord of the rings and then spend 3 seasons of aragorn and Co riding around genociding orcs and enacting huge punishments on easterlings

[lucid token]

Just dress the baddies in skulls and human skin and I think the viewer can get the gist of it.

[last hawk]

I would be very surprised if this series focused on the goodguys genociding the bad guys civilian populations

That's just not how things work

[north onyx]

I'd be very surprised if the series story had literally anything to do with 40k past present or future narrative instead of being it's own self-contained story.

[hollow drum]

saying you dont need the horus heresy for the scouring to work is like saying you dont need bread to make a sandwich

“but the bread is implied by the meat and the tomato” yea but you still cant pick it up and eat it

[last hawk]

I don't think that's a valid equivalence at all.
Saying you don't need to understand the heresy to understand the Scouring is more like saying you don't need to know how bread is made to understand a sandwich.
That bread exists is evident from it being in the sandwich, how it got there is a largely unnecessary story for another time

[lucid token]

it'll either be a new conflict or like, Istvaan

[ebon dawn]

That is the scouring.

That's literally what happens

[last hawk]

Yeah but that doesn't mean they have to show it
There's a lot of battles against not innocent civilians they would cover

[dusty shard]

I see nothing wrong with starting a Scouring series in media res

[soft nest]

Honestly. You can pepper in what happened in the Heresy for a Scouring Show. Especially if the protagonist is a Veteran, you could give them flashbacks to the Heresy era.

That and there is exposition.

[stable kernel]

Tell that to GW shortening the list of unknown foundings. *(grumbles in Death Specteres). *😡

[thin zodiac]

And they don't address the rainbow warrior elephant in the room

[lucid token]

The rainbow warriors are a successor chapter formed from blacksheilds. That's the ideal origin for em imo

[thin zodiac]

I was feeling Ultramarines Inductii, and was gonna make my force on that premise

[gaunt scarab]

it still feels like such an obscure time period. like what would they gain from setting it at the scouring?

if they set it at the scouring, then it feels like they can only use new characters (not a bad thing mind) because almost every scouring main characters arc is tied up in the heresy. but if youre going with obscure characters, why not just skip forward 7000 years and be able to incorporate the imperium as it is in 40k?

[soft nest]

I have no idea.

[abstract fox]

They sell more space marines. Lore is one of the last things they worry about when selling models.

[gaunt scarab]

I agree, I’d be shocked if they don’t make an appearance, but I’d be suprised if they were the main focus, especially in an obscure time period, which Gw does not have kits or a game for.

[abstract fox]

I think you're missing the point. If this is the focus of the Amazon show, the assumption would be that GW would make more space marines and kits for that time period.

[gaunt scarab]

But why would they go through that effort to make kits for a time period with no currently associated game, when they surely have enough control over the show to ask that it be set during one of their current settings.

It just seems like a really odd decision from all angles

[abstract fox]

?? not at all. GW make model kits. They can make it either fit into 30k or into 40k or make a new game. it's what they do. If this show has been planned for so long it gives them plenty of time to capitalize on it.

[gaunt scarab]

They do? But seriously my point is not could they do the scouring, but why would they do the scouring. It’s more beneficial for GW if it falls in one of their existing games

[stable kernel]

Rumour has it amazon wanted in on merch etc that means tabletop profits. Thats a lot of money to slice off GW's revenue on 40k. Can't take tabletop sales on a game/ tabletop that dosn't exist.

[gaunt scarab]

That seems like the most patently absurd rumour imaginable. It’s not like they get a cut of fallout games or tolkiens books

[gaunt scarab]

Wait I just realised that makes even less sense since IIRC, Amazon is paying GW a License for their setting. Why on earth would GW give back part of their core revenue stream.

[loud cipher]

They wouldn't.

The issue is having a comparative product to the show available for sale.

[gaunt scarab]

What do you mean?

[soft nest]

Basically if the show is set in the scouring, it's going to get people more interested in that period, especially those who would want to play in that period.

That's the cruz of the rumor. That GW forsees people wanting a Scouring game if Henry is wanting to make a Scouring Era show.

[vivid dome]

Its most likely going to be ultramarines

[dusky hull]

I guess the problem is the Scouring isnt really its own IP? Its 40k with more than typical 30k elements and that opens up all kinds of crossovers that GW and IP lawyers get palpitations about.

What niche would a separate game even fill? I could see something like the Titus box mini game but definitely nothing as grand as even a skirmish game really?

[vivid dome]

GW could have gone to any studio to get this series done.

[stable kernel]

I think they should have. That would have given a hopefully proven track of success which would have increased their position/ negotiating power with amazon later.

[vivid dome]

what makes you think they didnt do that

like why would you thunk amazon is the only studio they talked to? Every studio would want the chance to make a 40k series its an almost garanteed success if you dont alienate the fans

[soft nest]

Yeah, I feel like they went with Amazon since it has one of the biggest platforms.

[severe sphinx]

And is evidently willing to throw a lot of money at big IP projects (Ex: Lord of the Rings)

[abstract fox]

Amazon kinda came outta the woodworks with their willingness to work with different studios and either fund or host different projects. The Critical Role series (multiple campaigns now), the recent Gundam GQuuuuX, Helluva Boss/Hazbin Hotel, and that's just talking about their animated series.

[lucid token]

It's the same strategy ad Disney has used. Get other IPs and earn money through them

[gaunt scarab]

this is why im sceptical of this rumour. its in GW's interest for the show to be set during one of its current systems, so when people walk into the shop asking about the show, they dont need to design a whole new game to fit into the shelf they point too. id be suprised if amazon cared, and id find it odd if cavil was dead set on the scouring of all things

[stable kernel]

Amazon called GW's bluff. Would explain why the negotiations have been so slow/ quiet etc. GW's track record thus far was W+ content of low quality gotten from press ganged fan content creators via GW legal breathing down their necks, with a shoe string budget. Basically- amateur hour. GW should have properly put out its content with smaller syndicated deals. Thats negotiating from a weak position as a result. Maybe the long game for GW is setting up the IP with Amazon with the lower value HH, then if its a success, knock on Disney's door with 40k while pointing out how well the warhammer IP is with Amazon. Thats a stronger negotiation position.

[gaunt scarab]

What bluff? Your making it sound like W+ is proof that the warhammer IP is weak, but it’s at an all time high. What relevance does warhammer+ have to Amazon?

[severe sphinx]

GW's bargaining position also isnt tied solely to warhammer's presence in the tv/movie scene. Its tied to how popular the warhammer IP is overall, and as an IP warhammer has only been getting more popular as time goes on

[gaunt scarab]

Even if WH+ isn’t great, that probably just makes Amazon more comfortable as they know GW won’t compete with them too much on their own platform. GW can point to the fact it’s IP was one of the highest and most reviewed of all the secret level episode

[vivid dome]

bro you just invented a narrative in your head

[soft nest]

Yeah people forget 40k is a BIG gaming IP.

It hae a long video game history.

[severe sphinx]

And even beyond gaming Warhammer as a hobby has grown more popular as the years go on

[soft nest]

Yup. It's pretty much rising to the level of Halo and Star Wars as a pop culture icon.

[dusky hull]

Its not been a slow agreement either, i know a few people in entertainment and they pretty universally said "expect something in ten years" when that first announcement leaked.

[stable kernel]

That GW's bumbling and efforts prove they need amazon to go to mass market, because they will not do it themselves. That makes GW the weaker party in such negotiations. GW is clearly fighting for its life for a deal that will not be a disaster for them.

[stable kernel]

Ah yes, making a smaller deal to prove commercial success to set up a bigger deal later. I guess no one plans 5-10 years ahead in these corporations. 🙄

[stable kernel]

So did halo and star wars etc. These corporations have a graveyard of failures with series. GW wants to avoid that on its IP clearly.

[vivid dome]

what are you even saying? wheres your smaller deal

tv series are always signed one season at a time

[stable kernel]

HH is small potato's to hand off and split revenue with. GW won't be as badly out of pocket with it. Clearly there are still problems with the financials or at least design/ writers if further along that will have a knock on effect. I wouldn't start with the best IP (40k) either in such a deal.

If it all goes bad, it only will effect HH which is less damaging for GW in the long run.

If its a sucess, GW can go to disney for a better deal etc/ shop around more confidently.

[vivid dome]

we have zero confirmation that the story takes place during the heresy the scouring or the 41st

[severe sphinx]

I’m pretty sure the closest we have to confirmation is vague rumors of a scouring series, and some older but just as vague rumors of an eisenhorn series

[stable kernel]

Sure, but you don't use your best IP in such a venture. Its plausible for it to be more likely to be HH or scouring to see how it goes. So people should not be shocked GW's first steps into going mainstream etc won't be with 40k proper.

[severe sphinx]

This isn’t their first venture though

Secret Level confirmed interest in Warhammer 40K on streaming

[stable kernel]

GW has a far stronger negotiation position/ control in the videogame sphere vs the media one. Thats why you see so many 40k games there.

[severe sphinx]

And stuff like space marine 2 confirmed interest as well, though that wasn’t streaming specific

[stable kernel]

GW are the ones who want the final say with the direction of the 40k IP. That won't happen when coming from a weaker position. For example, people wanted to get rid rid of the mechanicus pope hats in Inquisitor martyr. GW pretty much told the devs no they stay or else. Thats why we have so much 40k content in the videogames sphere and nothing of real substance in the old media etc sphere yet.

GW has the leverage to throw its weight around in the videogame space, not the old media/ media one. Its not there yet.

[dusky hull]

Honestly there is so much wrong there its difficult to know what to address?

[stable kernel]

Another example- If sabre had their way I can say with confidence they would have been all firstborn and not primaris in SM2. As a videogame dev working with GW, its clear when GW says jump your answer is how high. GW can't do that with someone like amazon.

[north onyx]

What exactly are we speculating here?

[stable kernel]

why GW isn't likely using any 40k IP in its first outing as a mass market media release to reach the wider general audience.

and why this venture has seemingly stalled/ moved along more yet.

[north onyx]

I still think it's rather obvious.

They'd rather not share toy deal revenues with Amazon from either of their main-line IPs, so they registered a new one to sell it under.

As to why it's taking as long as it has, I mean, for one, they had to negotiate this out. For two, production of tie-in merchandise, aka, the miniatures.

[stable kernel]

I'll agree with that. All the more reason to not use the 40k IP in such talks etc.

[north onyx]

If I had to guess they'd do this like everything else. Make those first and then have the series production around that instead.

It's like with Cathay and Total War. Grand Cathay was done for aaaages before TWW3 was even around. And was more than likely based off of said insider content and concept art from GW itself. Just that TOW's last minute shifts held it up.

[north onyx]

The only very much possible kicker with this notion however. If this goes by traditional toy deal laws outside of it being somewhat backwards, as in the show's made around the figures and not vice versa, then whatever GW produced for this will more than likely to expire once the contracts do.

Or how do I say this.

Whatever that will be made for it will very much be "legally distinct".

Tactical marines won't be called tactical marines, orks may not be called that, new characters will be invented and established ones only hinted at or not named directly. Ect.

[stable kernel]

hm, that sounds like how racing games get delisted because the devs/ publisher no longer wants to pay licenses/ royalties on copyrighted music, car manufacturing licenses etc. (?)

[north onyx]

Very much that.

And depending on the contract's flexibility, but more importantly the show's success, that may be a very very short time.

[stable kernel]

Better to have a short deal thats a hit with HH potentially then a longer one could be had with 40k etc later. Makes sense.

[north onyx]

Oh no this will very much be 40k but legally distinct. HH just freshly became a mainline product and I don't imagine GW would want to risk it when they have the far more stable option open wide.

[stable kernel]

Pre 8th ed 40k is essentially GW's star wars legends at this point. I guess you could risk something there easily enough I suppose.

[north onyx]

They don't require much.

Space marines, chaos space marines, some xenos (orks and eldar).

You have Warhammer 40,000

And that's it.

Also, before it comes up, I cannot emphasize to you how insignificantly little whether it's primaris or firstborn matters to literally anyone who is the target audience.

[stable kernel]

Sure, I mostly agree, but still there is enough creators/ devs/ core audience etc who still want to see firstborn content. But, they really don't matter in the long run if GW can go mainstream etc. Its just disappointing GW has been so heavy handed with not allowing much firstborn representation. But, thats the way things are going unfortunately. 😩

[north onyx]

The target audience does not see a difference.

Newer fans do not see a difference.

GW does not see a difference.

And soon, the overwhelming majority of the community won't see a difference.

Mainly, because there will no longer be one.

Hell, I'd argue how well marine sales have gone since 8th and continue to go, we're almost already there.

[vivid dome]

primaris an fb marines are functionally the same tbh

it was just a scale update with some lore to make it make sense

i agree theres no difference

GW could have went with any studio

[north onyx]

That's what I will never understand about the movement against it. Is it really not this obvious that exactly was the game plan the whole time? Functionally no difference. The keyword was simply invented because the setting itself was getting rebranded with 8th. And now that we're winding down from it you'll see they'll be one and the same.

[vivid dome]

this is their negotiating leverage

[north onyx]

I'd also find it hilarious if this whole thing I said about licenses and copyrights was achieved through sacrificing Mark V. Everyone in the show has that and it disappears once the contracts expire.

[lucid token]

Gw shouldn't make a show.

[lucid token]

This is so dumb I belive it's why gw did this whole song and dance.

[gaunt scarab]

I mean I’d be happier if that were the case but that’s not true, primaris as an army are designed like aspect warriors, with a pre designated role for every squad, and having no wargear variation within those units.

[vivid dome]

whats so dumb about it lmao

[gaunt scarab]

Wait… you mean to tell me, that GW isn’t able to make a live action TV show all by itself? Gasp that’s such a weak bargaining position, since it’s literally the exact same bargaining position every other IP has? Of course GW can’t make their own goddamn shows, do you know how expensive it is to make a live action series. Doing that with absoloutely no experience (apart from the absoloutely peak inquisitor movie) was literally never going to happen.

[vivid dome]

thats just movement towards simpler 10th edition ruleset

if they didnt do the scale update the normal first born marines would have the no wargear variation thing going on today

every single faction is like that in 10th

its so easy to backtrack that kind of stuff. they can just have guilliman say so

[gaunt scarab]

Sure, but it has lead to primaris having a distinctly different feel.

And no, if they never updated the kits, the options would have lasted at least somewhat.

[vivid dome]

doubt it

they would have updated the kits just with the same scale

[gaunt scarab]

That doesn’t make it not annoying.

[vivid dome]

instead of primaris scale

[gaunt scarab]

Possibly true but since this alt history we have no idea, but I still do not like it.

[vivid dome]

yeah the idea that the bargainign position is "you do it with us or you do it yourself" is ridiculous

[gaunt scarab]

But this is off topic. We need to wait and see what insane, Snyders coming back esque conspiracies people come up with about GW and Amazons negotiation.

[vivid dome]

the actual bargaining position is "look we have this IP thats gaining grounds all over the place and we make millions and millions in merch every year"

now you can either take the deal or ill go to HBO, or Netflix, or Warner, or Columbia, or Universal, or Paramount, or Sony Pictures, or Lions Gate

GW was in a great position to negotiate a deal lmao

[lucid token]

Why does scale need lore.

[vivid dome]

because it looks weird on the table to have two sizes of marines

and if you just kill everyone's smurf armies all of a sudden without an obvious tell tale sign, theyre gonna throw a huge tantrum

so you tell them: here there's two kinds of marines now and one is slowly becoming obsolete

and it takes like 4 editions to actually happen

which is quite a while tbh

[lucid token]

Heresy was fine for years, is still fine actualy

[lucid token]

Scale hasn't invalidated 1st Ed heresy armies

And I'm not saying removing small models is bad. That dosent mean anyone has to abandon their armies, if you think so you've fallen deep into gws pocket. What I am saying is its peak GW tism to create lore to excuse a scale update that could've been explained with "new armor lol".

[vivid dome]

new heresy marines are substantially smaller than primaris

[vivid dome]

oh le GW pocket

mixed scale tables are ugly

[lucid token]

But larger than old marines like the FW units

Yet there is no issue

[vivid dome]

1. its a specialist game thats probably like 20 times smaller than 40k

2. Yes its an issue, mixed scale makes for an ugly table.

[lucid token]

So its just a matter of taste. So not a actual problem. And 40k could use some specialist game treatment if what we've got is the result of being main line

[vivid dome]

nah 40k is doing fine