The Horus Heresy - Scouring game

[brittle sonnet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywJjBc4ZRUQ

Summary of the alleged rumours above;

• has heard that Games Workshop are planning a Scouring game; focus on "updated" Firstborn Space Marine models (Mark VII), Xenos factions, later versions of Heresy characters (Sigismund, Primarch's, etc).

[inland canyon]

"Xenos Factions".

Orks, Dark Eldar and Craftworlds?

[sharp flax]

clearly t’au with sticks and stones

[inland canyon]

Though they could just save the orks for a WotB if this is happening.

[sharp flax]

what even could you make for the scouring that isnt able to be made for hh or 40k?

[keen ivy]

If it was set later I’d have said the beast

[sharp flax]

i could see maybe an edition of horus heresy focused on the scouring, it’d line up with even loyalist primarchs supposedly getting new models

but an entire game system around the scouring has nothing unique to it

[inland canyon]

Could be how they drop some daemons as well.

Mortarion, presumably Magnus, Perturabo and I guess Lorgar Transfigured / Transcended / Ascended.

[sharp flax]

i think the literal only thing the loyalists would have is death company

[inland canyon]

I'd argue, new system means new lore, especially if they haven't touched this in ages. Or more importantly, haven't touched it since before the reboot(s).

[narrow kettle]

Kinda sounds like GW tries to sell people Space Marines armies three times simultaneously.

[agile tartan]

Well there are three "eras" of space marines now that people are interested in. Legions, firstborn, and primaris.

[sharp flax]

theres demand tbf

people want oldhammer firstborn stuff

its smart, GW is trying to rake in as much cash from space marines as possible

[fervent talon]

updating legions with scouring forces would be very nice. would be interesting to see the transition from solar auxilia/militia to imperial guard as well

[timid lake]

I suppose the Whirlwind does somewhat fit "very late 30k"

[fervent talon]

i do wonder how far they'll go. the scouring itself is "brief" for the setting, a few hundred years of m31. war of beasts and ecclesiarchy stuff would come much later.

[agile tartan]

To be fair, the Horus Heresy is 7 years

[sharp flax]

on one hand it makes sense on the other i really wish it was a decade or two atleast

[fallow ore]

Agreed. Maybe a pre-7th style game.

[brittle sonnet]

The Scouring is just over a century.

[marsh sage]

Scouring is also just where to go when you eventually run out of HH stuff

I mean you can make new stuff but only to a certain point for HH and eventually you are really on the bottom of the barrel for characters

Hell after Scouring they could do Badab, not as connected but model wise its an easy progression since it featured basically all the HH vehicles

And none of it would need to abandon HH just a new set of chapters to play in a different setting, could use the same core book

[hollow pivot]

the wonderful part about a fictional setting is that you can constantly add to it or change it. It's never 'done' until you say it's done

I can't say I'm honestly all that thrilled about a Scouring system. What sort of game system would it be that would help differentiate it from 30k and 40k?

[marsh sage]

I mean yes but also the HH being a thing in the past people don't love it when you just add stuff beyond what could reasonably have been there the whole time

[marsh sage]

I mean the rules?

[hollow pivot]

I dunno. We'll see what happens. There's a lot of concerns that I have about it, and I think my biggest is just how the community is going to react.
A big issue could be people gatekeeping the models from 30k to 32k to 40k, which is just silly since they're all going to be space marines with bolters.

[sharp flax]

i wonder if they’ll go into at all the primarchs psychology when it comes to the timescale in the scouring books, the great crusade was 2 centuries and the scouring over 100, the horus heresy was their equivalent of a week

imagine how fucked up you’d be if the equivalent amount of change that was great crusade imperium to scouring imperium happened in a week

[inland canyon]

Still intruiged by that explicit mention of "Xenos".

Also not to play full on conspiracy theorist but what if this only exists because of the Amazon series licence agreement?

What if they couldn't negotiate to sign it as HH or 40k IPs because that'd make it so Amazon has a cut of the merch sales. In this case applying to miniatures as well under a toy deal.

So to compensate GW signed off on and is on the way to registering a new series of copyright licenses and producing merch, as in miniatures, specifically for this series.

Would make sense why it is the Scouring of all things all over the place. Assuming this isn't just fully bogus.

[marsh sage]

I doubt that

I think it being the focus of the Amazon show is pure Valarak cope

Thats like such a specific part of the universe to focus on that genral audiences would need a lot of background exposition on

[inland canyon]

It all kind of just feels weird not to set it in 40k proper.

[marsh sage]

Ya there are numerous reasons it wouldn't make sense

the game part ya I can see that happening

[hollow pivot]

If anyone is going to do a show for Warhammer, it'll be in either 30k setting or 40k setting. From GW's perspective, they want as much attention on Primaris marines as possible. They're the face that sells the place, so any show is very likely going to feature that or be set in 40k so that they can be featured. Going into the Scouring to appease Amazon, nah.

GW wouldn't sign a contract that didn't benefit them, but diving into a whole setting just so Amazon doesn't get a cut of profits of other toy sales... nah.

[round lake]

I hope if they do this we get a new plastic Castra Ferrum Dreadnought model.

[sharp flax]

yea ima be real the average audience will barely understand 30k or 40k even if we start with horus rising and go from there

expecting general audiences to understand the scouring is like asking them to watch a documentary on the manufactory of rocket fuel

[quick compass]

They're not going to do a THIRD core rule system for another Space Marine era. We will obviously get some way to play in the era, or they wouldn't be doing the books.

It'll almost certainly be the HH3.5 book, whenever that's due. Minor revisions to the core with new lists for heavily modified 40k factions.

[fervent talon]

and they still haven't even made a siege box set!

[hollow pivot]

nor a War in the Webway set.

[fervent talon]

that one was rumored for FOREVER too wasn't it?

[hollow pivot]

it was often in the same breath of the 'horus heresy 2.5th edition' rumors

[pliant hollow]

Extending Heresy into the scouring works fine until the 2nd founding, I think? It's still the legions up to that point. That extends the heresy for another 7 years from 014 to 021.M31

[vale warren]

I wonder if it'll be something like Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit, where they just rebranded the game to The Hobbit (to tie in with the films).

So maybe HH4.0 will be The Scouring

Because I can't imagine GW having three 28mm wargames all vying for the same spot
40k and 30k have different niches at opposite ends of the 'narrative' spectrum, but The Scouring wouldn't fit anywhere

[stiff flare]

3 space marine games take it or leave it

[vale warren]

Also, given the clear delineation GW has adopted with AoS/Old World - with no shared factions or miniatures, it would seem ridiculous to plonk a new game down that basically just shares all 30k/40k minis.

[sharp flax]

horus heresy as a sub brand is to iconic and rebranding it to a far more obscure area would just be confusing and potentially alienating to actual hh players

not that they wouldnt do it, just it’d be very stupid

they lost people because of the eldar-dark eldar aeldari/drukhari and imperial guard astra miliaturm rebrands lol

[vale warren]

But, I wouldn't be that surprised if GW rebranded 30k to The Scouring (to match with the book series) and took the opportunity to cut some of the 40k factions down to The Scouring.

[stiff flare]

cutting entire 40k factions for a sub game sounds like actual madness lmao

[vale warren]

We might end up with "Horus Heresy: The Scouring"
But I do agree, on the balance of probabilities I would be very surprised if this rumour turns out true

Maybe this "game" will be a small boardgame, rather than a full offering.
Although GW doesn't seem to do that anymore, so it feels unlikely?

[vale warren]

I bet GW is begging for an excuse to cut some of the 'lesser' factions from 40k
It's unbelievably bloated by factions at this point

[stiff flare]

not really

[sharp flax]

who would even get lost to the scouring

[stiff flare]

what do you even view as a lesser faction?

you really think they gonna cut fucking orks and eldar from the game?

[sharp flax]

also its definetly not bloated

orks craftworlders drukhari votann tyranids t’au GSC

chaos space marines

knights + chaos knights

imperial guard

custodes

LSM

admech

who do you cut?

[stiff flare]

lsm clearly

removes the most

the fact they have sep fuckin findings for every single main lsm chapter when most of these are just like 2 minis and an upgrade kit of difference is hilarious.

[fervent talon]

if anything there's a bunch of factions they want to add

[sharp flax]

the smaller factions arguably dont even exist or arent relevant during the scouring

votann (not relevant) t’au (dont exist) tyranids (not in the galaxy) GSC (not in the galaxy) sisters of battle (dont exist)

[stiff flare]

just leaves 3 xenos factions

[sharp flax]

orks get cut

stuck in war of the beast subgame

[stiff flare]

fate worse than death

[fervent talon]

dark mech would be real big for scouring, like on port maw

[celest prairie]

War of the Beast? Hmm

[celest prairie]

Yeah but a majority of tau allies did exist since the crusades, the bitter sweet xenos that are still pissed at the imperium since the Crusades; who barely escape extinction from the deaths of their home worlds or empires.

Votann could be non-Chaos faction of imperial squat renegades, who diverted to cloning or before doing that stuff.

[lean goblet]

I bet this isn't a scouring game

Itl be a retro 40k game set during that post scouring pre black crusade era now that 30k 3.0 has divested from it's 3d ed rule fork.

[small glen]

It would be nice if it means we get pre-primaris space marines back.... however, we won't know until then.

[silk wren]

Aren't all Heresy pre-primaris?

[small glen]

Well, yeah. I'm talking about more or less 40k Era marines.

[narrow kettle]

A few years ago, I saw a little meme / cartoon that I can't find anymore.
Basically, there is a 40k Space Marine party going on with Primaris Marines dancing and the MK 7 and MK 8 Marines getting shown out the door.
They go to the next house where a Heresy party is going on, but the MK 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 Marines won't let them in.
So the "old 40k" Marines stand between both houses, having no place to go.

[agile lantern]

Could this mean we get official rules for xenos?

[mighty bay]

Technically yes, but I doubt it.

[main wedge]

If there is a scouring game there will be mk 7.

But I'd like to highlight the fact that most armor mks were used right up into the 42nd millennium so I wouldn't consider 2-6 strictly Heresy armor

[agile lantern]

Biggest issue I have with primaris tbh. Hard locks you into era indomitus instead of being able to explore imperial history

Models are fine, marine’s a marine 90% of the time, but it’s the principle of the thing

[small glen]

Yeah. That's one of the big things I don't like about Primaris and how it forces you into one particular style.

Like what if you want to do the Badab wars in 40k? You really can't anymore, even if you use legends units since all those options that used to be available for the Badab war back then, entire faction rules and characters you could field, are just gone.

You can't even really go further back like the earlier Armageddon Wars, Age of Apostacy, etc. Admittedly one group I am a part of is set during the War of the False Primarch, and several of them do a good job of de-primarising Primaris for that era.

A potential scouring game can open up that entire era and serve as a mid-way between 40k and Horus Heresy.

[agile lantern]

Yeah I’d love it if the scouring AoD expansion kind of served as a “40k TOW”, basically being a time capsule of an older game experience and sandbox within a beloved setting

Heresy kind of has that, but with its focus on a single conflict it doesn’t reach the same appeal fully

[cyan estuary]

And what if the HH Scouring is just the natural next phase of HH? I mean, the book series is over. It’s time to start thinking about what comes next, no?

[agile lantern]

No. It’s pseudohistorical, not some advancing timeline.

Plenty of napoleonic rulesets have expansions to cover stuff like the Crimean war, but this doesn’t mean that the napoleonic rules are made to cover the napoleonic war.

If they were planning on “advancing” or following the books, why was the 3.0 starter all about Istvaan instead of the solar war?

[hollow pivot]

there's assloads of battles, units, characters, and parts of the war that GW can continue to milk in horus heresy. Just as a lot of the Saturnine stuff came out of a forge on Saturn, they can come up with how another forge world or moon or martian thing came up with some other technology during the heresy and continue to create 'new' things for this setting.

If they do start moving into the Scouring... ugh, I don't honestly want to think about it XD

[grave ice]

Badab will be lurking around the corner after that

[hollow pivot]

badab war was firmly in M41

[agile lantern]

I could see them keeping the core of Age of Darkness content solidly in the heresy, but then making an “eras of darkness” series of setting guides with stuff like the scouring, war of the beast, etc. kind of like how some RPGs have other setting guides

[hollow pivot]

Possibly. War of the Beast is an odd one because it's space marines vs orks, and all the space marines were still on the same side at the time, iirc

[agile lantern]

Eh I wouldn’t mind xenos getting some sort of love in the AoD ruleset, so maybe a little orks or eldar would be welcome. Would help convince some friends of mine to swap over

[hollow pivot]

Orks getting 30k support... I dunno, that opens a door that I'm not sure GW want to touch

especially in this age of 'every system has to have highly separate models that can't be used in any other system' that we're in

[subtle niche]

War of the Beast is after the Scouring

[hollow pivot]

Oh I must be thinking of ullanor

[grave ice]

and excluding the xenos getting rules caveat for Heresy, why wouldn't Ullanor be ok for the game? Would it be because its Pre-Heresy?(We've got MK-II, we can technically go all the way back to the beginning of the crusade if GW so desires.)

[hollow pivot]

Pre heresy removes a major reason for armies to fight each other

[grave ice]

You can just have campaign supplements that allows xenos rules
That should be the extent I guess

Although I'm not sure GW would allow for that
They don't want people using 40k and AoS Orks in 30k I guess

[vale warren]

Going into the scouring to add xenos would require GW to release whole new lined for those xenos - I just can't see it

[muted elk]

The only way for them is to do it like old world and move/re-release all the old kits, they are not gonna make a new line or have both share

[vale warren]

Old World hasn't duplicated any factions currently in AoS. Those were relegated to legends rules from launch.

The only kits Old World is rereleasing are factions squatted from AoS.

Which means there's not really anything for the Scouring to pick up, as 40k hasn't got anything left on the cutting room floor.

[inland canyon]

Just aquila armour tbh

[vale warren]

Actually fair point

A scouring "here's all your firstborn, still no xenos" is certainly possible.
But then the old Firstborn kits are in a smaller scale so it's iffy still

[muted elk]

orcs and goblins and gloomspite gits/ardboys, chaos warriors/slaves to darkness. its not the exact same faction like in scouring/40k, but shared the same minis, even with some still being in aos while being fantasy kits originally, which got rules but arent listed on the store page

Im only saying its the most likely option for proper xenos releases in a theoretical scouring game, with only the older kits that have been replaced with new ones/yet to be replaced(rumoured orks in 11th ed for instance)

I think the most plausible option if at all would be a pdf release like militia, without any store/kit representation

[grave ice]

They can use this as an excuse to upscale and heresy-fy them to put them in line with the Heresy scale and assembly system
My question is if they'll keep true to the originals or not

But it would be nice to have the weapons, bodies and vehicles be of the same quality as the Heresy line

I just don't want them to cut down the number of spare parts (They will, I know it already ☹️)

[small glen]

Honestly. For the War of the Beast thing, they could do Ork Units exclusive to that era, since this is apparently the Orks at their peak (that the Imperium knows of). They could even bring back stuff like Nobz in proper power armor, and other rogue trader era stuff lost to time.

[hollow pivot]

I feel like that would just upset Ork players to have units that they can't use in 40k, just like Admech players.

[mighty bay]

We used to have a thing for situations like this, forge world. RIP Fires of Cyraxus.

[small glen]

Yeah I blame whatever exec is demanding the ranges stay separated.

[grave ice]

bean counters and probably that 1 marketing guy that wants somewhat clear figures of what people buy for what system
I can understand it but I don't like it
Why not just... Relaunch the models in like 3 different game system packages(40k, 30k, AoS for example for daemons)

The only things that would change would be the transfers and box cover... But it will very much be a logistical nightmare imo

[mighty bay]

I believe it could be done in time- just not exclusively in the UK for production. There is quite a difference in "Made in UK" and "Product of UK".

[vital gust]

SKU bloat is a real thing. While it doesn’t seem like GW cares about it too much, I’m sure there’s at least a few guys in logistics having a fit at the thought of tripling the marine range size

[subtle hawk]

yeah, GW used to be about models first, rules second - the problem is the shift to competitive tournament gaming and "no rules, no models" changes alongside "we want to give a money bonus if your stuff sells more so we have to cleanly divide even if it makes ZERO SENSE in lore"

[subtle hawk]

they could easily go the route of "mail order only boxes" that are blanks and just have the right sprues in it, which is something they do already for some stuff iirc. the only issue is maybe the building instructions who are usually for just one system but honestly, having the rules in the boxes is pretty much useless anyways haha

[grave ice]

yeah, you mean to tell me that in the 100 years from the badab war till curent time every single space marine chapter somehow lost it's 10k year old relics and went to plain mk-vii and then to plain mk-x in the span of a couple of years?
(Knowing that they kept a good chunk of stuff for over 10k years?)
Yeah no thanks GW

[marsh sage]

I think also at least until all plastic HH like we have now both sides wanted the separation

When HH stuff was all playable in 40K HH stuff would be sold out ALL THE TIME because 40K players would buy them so actual HH players couldnt get them super easily

And the 40K team probably was tiered about Marines getting even more units they had to balance along with the tons they already had in comparison to all other factions

[brittle sonnet]

Also comes down to the fact that, at least pre-8E (and even post-8E to a degree), the rules for Imperial Armour were designed for play against other units / factions from those books.

Not in the core game. It's where you could see the imbalances really start to pop up.

So on the one hand, yes, it does suck that stuff has been silo'ed off with minimal crossover. On the other hand, the intent was always sort of there to begin with.

[marsh sage]

Plus 90% of it is Marine players not getting EVEN MORE stuff, factions like Custodes and knights with smaller rosters still get their HH stuff

[inland canyon]

I'd also slide in, to some degree the plan is probably to resurrect imperial armour in that similar enough units will be brought out to their ranges.

The most blatant example I can think of would be that parallel between the Norn Emissary and Dimachaeron in both looks and intended purpose. The other one as per leaks would be the return of those jump pack winged Eldar Corsairs.

But if we stretch it further you can easily slide the Death Korps in here as well.

[grave ice]

for now
Let's wait for the 16th first lol

[grave ice]

To be honest, that's both a good and a bad thing
40k people buying heresy stuff would have been an incentive for GW to make more stuff quicker, however I agree that having the products themselves in stock is better lol

[mighty bay]

The knock on effect though of that is, HH plastics exist now but the volume isn't moving them like a 40k kit at the LGS. So there is less incentive to stock HH stuff wen you can stock more 40k product that sells instead. The range separation has managed to both help nd harm GW and the community IMO.

I can walk into an LGS and out with any 40k stuff, but HH kits not so much or at best I need a store order etc.

[hollow pivot]

I don't know that any other GW product will move as reliably as 40k stuff, especially in North America. A lot of LGS's also just don't want to have thousands of dollars worth of inventory just sitting there 'just in case'. It's just how it is.

[grave ice]

SAME, And yes I wanted to say the exact same thing I usually need to order them myself so I can't really wait for a sale at the LGS

[agile lantern]

Yeah my lgs stopped carrying any specialist game stuff to make room for Gundam models

[small glen]

Yeah. Honestly I think that's the one issue we can agree on with the whole mandatory range segregation GW has. Especially since you only really see promotion of kitbashing in the youtube community and other communities centered around modeling. With the gaming side of the community you don't really get that much.

So there really isn't much incentive for a 40k player to dive into other ranges unless they want to invest in said ranges. Like I'm invested in 40k, HH, AoS, and Necromunda, and it costs a lot of money for that. At least with HH and Necromunda there is some overlap allowed. Though trying to make a HH squat army is EXPENSIVE given the amount of exo-squats needed to make one special unit per detatchment, that and not really having enough bolt guns per regular kit of Ironhead squats.

But getting back to the whole "range segregation causes more harm than good." I've definitely heard of custodes fans dreading the possibility that their range refresh is going to be exclusively locked to the HH era with no guaruntee that Heresy Era units already in legends will carry over next edition. And that's just one example. I've also heard lots about Admech fans wishing they were able to play Mechanicum units in their armies since all they got recently is a servitor killteam and inspector gadget sniper.

And I've usually noticed my FLGS's usually try to balance the amount of 40k, AoS, Necromunda, and other ranges they have on shelves.

[hollow pivot]

One unfortunate side effect of range segregation is that people that are mostly collectors or builders/painters are LESS likely to participate in gaming because they're MORE likely to get models for cool painting or building opportunities than a regular gamer.

So you've got this relatively quiet group of people that may have a few admech from 40k and admech from 30k and they'll never play because their parts can't transfer over from one game to the next

but, anything to, uh... make it harder for 3rd party model makers? I don't even know at this point.

[small glen]

I don't think its mostly for 3rd party. From what I hear its because some divisions are fighting over each other because models from certain ranges are being bought for other ranges.

Like 30k marines being bought for 40k.

[mighty bay]

Its been confirmed several times already. appened with Beastmen and skaven and how they ended up for AoS and old world.

[agile lantern]

I don’t think 30k and 40k have the same…antagonistic relationship as the fantasy games, and GW has shown a lot more willingness for crossover with the new Custodes models explicitly stating you can use them in 40k too in their warcom article

Hell the new red corsairs look like they used a lot of the heresy CAD assets

[fervent talon]

the culling of 30k stuff from 40k a while back seems to point the other way

the kratos immediately going legends after being announced for both etc

[spring onyx]

Yeah Custodes are the exception rather than the rule, even the Knights, who are similarly timeless, dont get a bunch of their 40k stuff in 30k for no good reason

[slate cloak]

Mk 7 might get a new kit, there's rumors about it along with the scouring stuff

Mk 8 on the other hand...

[pliant hollow]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/xmlkha5o/the-scouring-timeline-how-the-warhammer-studio-worked-with-black-library-authors-on-the-new-series/

Interview with Andy Hoare about the Heresy team nailing down the timeline of the Scouring as groundwork for the BL writers.
Of note is that he mentions it being a 7 year timeline. This fits with the end of it being the second founding.
Both opens up Mk7 as a kit but at the same time keeping everything with legions instead of the chapters after the second founding

[magic fog]

In this article, they mention "gaming books" and supplements being on the table numerous times

[dense hamlet]

watch it be a campaign book for the Cuicle7 rpg lol

[marsh sage]

I mean it makes sense as something to cover when they run out of main HH to go over

[magic fog]

Gas

I'm SO psyched for that game ngl

[dense hamlet]

Do we heave a release date?

[magic fog]

Soon™

"It'll release when it's done" basically

[static nebula]

Hopefully they actually give the Imperial Army some love

Oh who am kidding?

[spring onyx]

Is it Andy Hoare? I thought they were still hiding surnames, and seemed deliberately vague about the whole affair

[cyan estuary]

I think we’ll get Horus Heresy supplements covering the Scouring, and then the 4th edition of HH will effectively become the 1st edition of the Scouring. We’ll probably keep the same rules, hopefully keep all the existing minis, and get new ones tied to the Scouring. That’s my take.

[hollow pivot]

I wonder if they'll use the Scouring to bring back this chubby boy

[subtle hawk]

Well, the stalker/hunter was originally an epic tank

[slate cloak]

Here's a question: if the Scouring does get a box set with all the bells and whistles, what two legions will be represented? 🤔

I'm thinking that GW will probably not want any repeats, so we're excluding any legions that have been in previous Heresy/Heresy-adjacent box sets. That rules out:
(Loyalists)

• Ultramarines
• Thousand Sons
• Imperial Fists
• Salamanders
  (Traitors)
• Word Bearers
• Space Wolves
• Sons of Horus
• Iron Warriors

I'm not a betting woman, but Blood Angels vs World Eaters feels thematic enough that it would be my main guess. Would give us Mk VII armor for both legions, or Mk VII for the BA and V for the WE. It also gives a perfect excuse to stuff in a Castraferrum dreadnought for the loyalists.

What do y'all think?

[grave ice]

anything for a Castraferrum

[slate cloak]

So true

[vivid mulch]

In terms of kits we don't have yet in plastic (not comprehensive, just stuff I would love to see):

• true despoiler kit (could be tied to a retooled Mk4?)
• speeders, both Land and Javelin
• tanks such as the Sabre and Arquitor
• missing options such as Sicaran Punisher and Omega in plastic
• Storm Eagle / fire raptor
• return of the old SM boxnought would be much welcomed

Angels, either Blood or Dark would suit for the infantry side, with Iron Warriors being on the receiving end of the pointy stick.

[slate cloak]

We are never getting a true despoiler kit. GW wants you to buy the melee upgrade sprue, it's why they include enough chainswords in that kit to make a full squad of despoilers.
Also, no repeats legions.

That being said, sicarans in plastic would be nice

[verbal mauve]

A MK 7 box would likely feature a Siege of Terra legion tbh. I know the Dark Angels were there but it's not to the same level as the other three.

[fervent talon]

White Scars/Emperor's Children?

[dense hamlet]

Yeah def no dedicated despoiler kit, but I could see them putting in melee frames for the strater so you could do despoilers or jump vets.

Would fit a theme of BA and WE very well

[small glen]

I think if we're going Siege of Terra thhen either Blood Angels or White Scars for the Loyalists, and Death Guard or Emperor's Children for Traitors. Could also provide the opportunity to introduce some proto-chaos marine models for the Traitors.

With included mutations.

[verbal mauve]

I'm not gonna lie, I think the SDS is already laying the groundwork to have the traitors going into the eye of terror being the real point they start to become chaos. At most we might just get small bits of chaos parts.

[spring onyx]

As much as SDS love ignoring fluff i think that might be a step too far given the widespread corruption at Terra, (And long before for some legions) if anything it gets toned right back at the Fall of Horus/opening of the Scouring.

If i was doing a scouring box id look at making a "greatest hits" of classic marine units, Mk 7 marines (Put a missile launcher and flamer on the sprue for optional Codex tactical squad) obviously, then a Castaferrum dread or two, classic 2nd ed style land speeder and a terminator squad, now id like to do a heresy indomnitus kit but it would be nice to get the upscaled tartaros out there. Couple of characters and bobs your mothers brother.

If i was feeling interdepartmentally sarcastic id do some 2nd/3rd ed style ruins in there too 😉

[verbal mauve]

Tbh it's more that SDS has its own ideas on how to portray the Heresy. One thing is that late Heresy BL novels have Emperor's Children using pink armour but campaign books in late Heresy still show purple frequently

[fleet socket]

Has there been that many colour plates of late heresy EC? I can i only think of the inductii from Cthonia.

[verbal mauve]

Trying to remember if it came up in some White Dwarf magazine or Siege of Beta Garmon campaign book

Regardless the idea of pink EC hasn't shown up in the game so far

[dense hamlet]

Yeah there was a WD with inductii~~ plates~~ (Plate photos are limited to faces and shoulders actually)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer30k/comments/176qg6w/inductii_photos_from_white_dwarf_491_and_492_i/

Rhino is pretty pink to me.

[verbal mauve]

Looks purple to me tbh

[spring onyx]

"Has their own ideas" is just "ignoring others work" in a more charitable light 😄 We know exponentially increasing numbers of Emperors children are wearing essentially whatever they want from Istvaan onwards.

That said when you are providing a small number of examples, the default/previous colours are going to be a lot more useful than "whatever" for painting models 😄

[small glen]

Yeah, I think part of the issue is that the Heresy game tends to mostly focus on uniform color schemes for armies whenever white dwarf or SDS does their army presenting. Unlike 40k which is generally known to be more creative.

So while canonically we should be seeing leopard print EC early on, the issue is that given most of the community sees Heresy EC as the purple guys, its hard to get out of that mindset.

[verbal mauve]

It's more so because a lot of people like 30k EC for the perfectionist appearance than the excess aftermath they became when they embraced chaos. It's probably why loyalist EC are so damn popular

[spring onyx]

The pre chaos/heresy legions have always been pretty popular, that's was always the focus of the scene before Forgeworld moved the effective starting point to Istvaan.

I'd still love to see a great crusade book too, but SDS won't do a xenos setting 😦

[verbal mauve]

Can you expand on that part about Forgeworld moving the starting point? Wasn't it always Isstvan 3?

[spring onyx]

As i said, the community was focused on the Pre Heresy/Great crusade period. Forgeworld moved that window into the Age of Darkness starting with Istvaan to the extent that by the time we were getting those first Plastic kits Heresy era armies were the norm.

Thinking about it, the biggest 30k era events WHW will ever likely run are the Tempus fugitive ones, though thats mostly because WHW's gaming space is smaller now! 😛

[pliant hollow]

How was the community focused crusade era, when the whole setting right from the get go was set in the heresy with marines fighting marines?

[slate cloak]

Mmmmm nah

EC at the SoT were super corrupted, like, nigh-indistinguishable from 40k levels of corrupted

WE have barely changed in 10,000 years. Sure, they have spikier armor and the Eightbound. That's really it. The rest is just models borrowed from the Chaos Space Marines range.

[slate cloak]

What community? It's always been marines vs marines? I don't see what this has to do with anything

[slate cloak]

It's not SOT, if it's a Scouring game then the box set will be for the Scouring.

[verbal mauve]

Not the most impactful thing in the world, but Kill Lupercal had the traitors look just like they had when the Heresy began in terms of the SoH wearing fresh MKVI armour, and I know how stringent GW is with lore accuracy, visually at least, so I don't think they intend to have the chaos influence be that present anymore. Especially if the Scouring gives them bonus campaign material

[keen ivy]

In that case it helps as they already had the models from the heresy trailer
Why waste the time, money etc when you already have assets to use when they aren’t the focus of the animation

[verbal mauve]

Oh I know, hence why they use a blurry video of Horus as they had the model for him. But the series itself was kind of terrible, I don't know why they set it during the Siege of Terra but right now it's at least an idea of what extent they consider chaos influence amongst the traitors at the time.

[keen ivy]

My ideal siege army would be a mix
Some showing no outside corruption to everything in between and then those fully twisted
Feel it better shows the corruption of the soul

[verbal mauve]

I told a friend the best way of doing it is a tactical squad similar to MK VI and MK II with the 5 poses and have it be based around traitor marines. Would allow for some variety and feels feasible

[pliant hollow]

How it works right now, I could see a "Chosen" unit entry in a journal as a kitbash unit that lets you take chaos boons

[verbal mauve]

https://youtu.be/JlGg7dH0f-I?si=t6-WD1s5xb-vZoGk

Okay not much, but basically Valrak says the Scouring is going to be an expansion to the Horus Heresy and not it's own game. Which isn't surprising but that's really the only thing he says he has heard

[keen ivy]

Which would make most sense
You’d get all the firstborn stuff shifted over including mark 7 etc and then some chaos kits and then it’s completely split from 40k

[verbal mauve]

I think people are really going to be annoyed that second founding chapters won't really exist during this in extensive detail. The Scouring is only going up the legions breaking up so they don't have to deal with player armies becoming radically different

[slate cloak]

Well, we'll still have some of the second founding

Flesh Tearers, Black Templars, chapters like that who were already splitting off

I'm hopinh this means we get Charnel Guard 🤞

[verbal mauve]

Is there lore for that?

[slate cloak]

I slightly misread the lore. BT were founded later, but other successors were forming. This was the whole "No, I think legions breaking down would be a terrible idea" debate

[keen ivy]

Again with the scouring they could say it ends in m31.021 for the second founding
But they could also pad it out till guilliman falls 100 years later if they wanted
Chapters are established by then but then I feel that leans too much to 40k side of things in regards to units (at least before primaris)

[verbal mauve]

We won't see Heresy go beyond m31.021 tbh, at that point it just becomes a 40k era explorer and diverts too much from its premise. At most I see hints of space marines getting little heraldry to represent the chapters being set up. But not outright having the chapters exist.

I'm basically looking at the Scouring as the dessert after a main course. It's a little extra treat but it's not as exciting as the main dish was

[grave ice]

I mean... 1 detachment and a colour scheme inside a jountal tactica would be prime time for succesor chapters after the scouring to keep it going

[verbal mauve]

I feel like the Scouring is only happening once the Heresy is run dry and the BL books are far enough. And even then it's probably not something we will see until God knows when, let alone the end of the Scouring

[pliant hollow]

The WarCom article on the Scouring background recently mentions that that is the end of their timeline, just doesn't put it in context directly with second founding but the year that the lion share of traitors flees into the eye of terror

[verbal mauve]

I'm curious do you think there will be some apocalyptic battle when the traitors are fleeing?

[fleet socket]

Yeah I have to think they’ll try and milk the siege of Terra first

[spring onyx]

@pliant hollow too, because the Community predates official FW support for the setting, by some years. Like i literally said, the Great crusade/Heresy setting was selling out WHW before then, GW did not decide to write Betrayal on a whim, they saw sustained interest from a notable number of hobbyists homebrewing stuff like Tempus fugitives and even BoLS before it was crap.

They then steered things in the direction that suited their plans.

[slate cloak]

This sounds wrong

Do you have actual proof of this

[dense hamlet]

What part? there were community events ran at WHW. I never attended but the pdfs are floating around.

[slate cloak]

Source: “trust me bro”

[spring onyx]

There are bits of it online still, but y'know i was there, the events happened 😄

[pliant hollow]

Like before the Horus Heresy Card game from 2003?

[dense hamlet]

People here attended the events...

[verbal mauve]

People did homebrew Heresy games before official support came around I don't see what's so surprising

[slate cloak]

Ah okay.

[brittle sonnet]

Likewise.

Believe they were featured in White Dwarf a few times.

[slate cloak]

I still have no idea what this has to do with the scouring box set though

[brittle sonnet]

I know the old converted Ultramarine army was flagged as having been at one of the community events at WHW.

There's been a lot of community events for various systems at WHW over the years. Blood Bowl kept itself going that way until GW picked it up again, I think Mordheim still has semi-regular events.

[spring onyx]

Discord is a spectacularly bad place for a history lesson, its worth looking into though, people have been making Pre Heresy stuff as long as it been part of the setting

[verbal mauve]

Yeah there was I want to say 7 years between the first BL Heresy book and FW HH? People 100% did games set during the Heresy

[brittle sonnet]

Horus Rising was 2005, BB1 was 2012.

But there was stuff even before 2005 going around.

[slate cloak]

Right, but where was the point that the Heresy community was primarily great crusade focused?

[slate cloak]

2006

[brittle sonnet]

Something that doesn't get discussed a great deal either - almost every major conflict and battle in the books is based off of games the studio has played, either behind closed doors or at WHW.

(By books, I mean codices, rulebooks, even Black Library).

[verbal mauve]

Oh that is fair, I'm actually curious about this statement as well

[brittle sonnet]

The setting has always been homebrew at the core.

[pliant hollow]

I just don't see how only way later GW supposedly came in and forced isstvan and the focus on the actual heresy onto that, when the art and background books with the focus on the heresy already started in 2004 with Visions of War

[slate cloak]

That’s what I was curious about. I have no doubt people played HH games in the 2000s

[brittle sonnet]

White Dwarf battles are also pretty key to various major lore events.

[slate cloak]

I remember reading a forum post about people arguing what weapons Horus used, it dated back to like 2003. One guy was saying “I think he had one lightning claw and Worldbreaker” and everyone else dogpiled him saying Horus OBVIOUSLY used TLC

[slate cloak]

Are there examples? I’m curious

[brittle sonnet]

Off the top of my head, a lot of stuff surrounding Armageddon. Basically the entire 13th Black Crusade.

Ragnar and Ghaz.

Various small BRs that've become part of the lore over the decades. Having vivid flashbacks to a Salamanders vs. Iron Warriors battle report.

Macragge as well - the death of the 1st Company was based on a studio game where the Ultramarines got curbstomped.

It's continued into modern times. But the best way to look at it is like.

It's a studio full of creatives - they enjoy telling stories using their experiences.

[dense hamlet]

https://cold-moon.com/40k/40kRP/PDF/Alternate Codexes/Tempus Fugitives - M31 - The Horus Heresy/THH Emperor Edition.pdf

[brittle sonnet]

A lot of chapters are flat out staff members personal homebrew.

[dense hamlet]

https://cold-moon.com/40k/40kRP/PDF/Alternate Codexes/Tempus Fugitives - M31 - The Horus Heresy/THH Warmaster Edition.pdf

2009 earliest I could fine.

[pliant hollow]

I think Adrian Smith's new version of the Emperor and Horus only got released in 2004, so the old black and white artwork was probably more well established at that point

[brittle sonnet]

iirc, you're on the mark.

I only remember it popping up when I was in primary school.

It got given away as a poster at one point as well - near to WD 300.

[verbal mauve]

I wonder if the Scouring is gonna force Custodes into the period

[brittle sonnet]

WD 300 itself had a double-sided poster; one side was Grombrindal, the other side was the big big map of the entire Warhammer Fantasy world.

[fervent talon]

minotaurs are a famous example for this

also i'm not sure how much came from it, but i know FFG came up with a lot of lore that's still considered canon.

[marsh sage]

Not just chapters, Lucius's like 2nd in command or something is some EC marine corrupted to look like a Minotaur, was just some employees kitbash forever ago but was made cannon and featured in a Hammer and Bolter animation

[pliant hollow]

The lore texts in the Visions books are by Alan Merrit, iirc. Or at least he was overseeing the lore there already?

[fervent talon]

the art book?

[pliant hollow]

Yeah. Started a year after the card game

[fleet socket]

I remember Andy Hoare talking about a necromunda campaign he ran were the twist at the end was that it was set on Cthonia and Imperial fists and Sons of Horus turned up to recruit the gangers...

[rotund girder]

I don't think so, they've shown no inclination to get to the Siege of Terra anytime soon with all the bouncing around in the timeline. Suspect we may see a Scouring expansion sooner rather than later and then see supplements bounce back and forth chronologically

[grave ice]

Depending on how things go, could even be next edition alongside the last armour mark. Because I expected we might get another mark this edition

So they get that last mark and then MK-VII with the scouring

[mighty bay]

It really depends on how GW fudges the timeline. The second founding itself used to be the signal of the end of the scouring era and the Dawn of the Imperium era just after that event.

[hollow pivot]

have we heard anything beyond the initial rumor about this?

[slate cloak]

We get occasional updates

We know it’ll have Mk VII

And that it’s Soon™

[hollow pivot]

hhhhhhhhhhuh

[wide bronze]

did they mention if it'll have any xenos involvement? iirc xenos took advantage of the scouring to gain some ground

[verbal mauve]

Iirc no. And I wouldn't expect xenos to show up anyway. The scouring goes far beyond m31.021 but that is where they are intending for it to stop. If you want a reason why they wouldn't involve themselves; xenos are weak as hell at this point and the imperium is destroying itself, they are gonna wait until it calms down before they know they can make some damage

[brittle sonnet]

Xenos were rumoured for Scouring.

To be honest, could easily see a similar situation to TOW whereby old 40k moulds are used initially.

[slate cloak]

Probably like TOW where some factions get free rules in a pdf. By "some factions", I mean Orks and all three flavors of Eldar

There are literally no other xenos in the setting that make sense for the scouring, timeline-wise

Maaaaaaybe Leagues of Votann?

[fleet socket]

I think specialist games is quite invested in 30k Votann being the necromundan squats

[trim shale]

when can i become gw staff

also when will we see the scouring come out. next edition?

[verbal mauve]

Not for awhile. Its being set up as a point for when they've covered most of the Heresy campaign book wise

[slate cloak]

Nah, otherwise the modern LOV wouldn’t be so well-represented by Militia

[fleet socket]

How so? There’s actual necromunda squat stuff in the militia pdf like the exo rig.

[small glen]

Yeah, problem is that you will have to buy LOTS of those kits to get the amount needed.

[trim shale]

Makes me wonder what scale to expect. Fingers crossed its 40k new scale like with red corsairs

[spring onyx]

Yeah the Leagues of Votaan have very little in common with the Necromundan "Squats" model range wise

[verbal mauve]

What do you mean sorry?

[trim shale]

Primaris sized

[verbal mauve]

Heresy scale is likely going to remain consistent

[trim shale]

Chosen, havoks and thr sort are primaris sized

[fleet socket]

They won’t change the scale as it’ll invalidate all the upgrade kits

[trim shale]

I honestly wouldn't mind red corsair marine scale for mkvii to do a seperate scourinh game

[trim shale]

Realistically. For a scouring game i could see it.

Plus not the first time gw mucks up scale

[verbal mauve]

They aren't gonna do a different scale. The whole point of the new kits is to work with upgrade sets

[trim shale]

That or we have mkvii in 2 diff scales which would be weird

[trim shale]

Say that to new cataphractii

[verbal mauve]

What do you mean

Terminators were always taller than normal space marines

[trim shale]

Fused fists to arms. Not modular

[spring onyx]

The core squad sprues will all be the same because they use the same skeleton to cut costs, everything else? Scale is often a joke sadly

[trim shale]

Therefore cannot work with any upgrade set

[trim shale]

Yeah. I do think it could be a chance to redo firstborn marines

Old VG vets, assault squad, sternguard and galore

[verbal mauve]

Regardless the SDS is much smaller and I doubt they would want to suddenly throw people into a loop again on scale

[trim shale]

I wouldn't be against 40k scaling. Plus lets you use new indom and judtify their size which i like

[marsh sage]

What if the upgrade also included the arms

[verbal mauve]

New indom aren't that much bigger than new cata right?

[trim shale]

They already are tbh. Using scale as a point is a bit mute when everything is primaris now.

Give it 12 years and we see all the marks redone primsris sized

[fleet socket]

With the ‘friendly’ competition between studios I doubt matching scales with 40k is a high priority for SDS

[trim shale]

Far larger tho. Make more sense with red corsair snd primaris size

At least with redone corsairs it makes more sense imo

[trim shale]

Honestly i think the best thing they can do is release mkvii for heresy and do 40k boxes for the best of both worlds. But no way they do that. LOL. Id always go for taller mkvii tho. I much prefer that vibe

My opinion. No need to agree. But breathing life into old kits doesn't need to be a bad thing

Personally 2 scales works best. Like how they keep old tacs and primaris. Make a squad for hh and make an upscaled squad for the scouring or 40k

[fleet socket]

I mean the odds of a duel kit are basically zero

[trim shale]

Probably but if i had to choose? Mkvii in new firstborn scale is my bet simply so i can use indoms

New cata put a foul taste in my mouth plus better proportioned astartes is always a W

[fleet socket]

Not just because of silly inter studio stuff but because returning to mark 7 would basically be the main studio admitting that Primaris was a mistake

[trim shale]

Eh. Doesn't need to be a mistake. Its just reviving old models

[verbal mauve]

I hope we get heresy era indomitus

[trim shale]

I have my own stance on this but if anything its more for nostalgia

I think tacticus armour has very easy fixes but that's another can of worms

[trim shale]

With 40k scale? Not sure. I would love heresy scale indom too

More likely than dual mkvii kits i think

But i don't think anyone fancies HH monopose mkvii

Plus the fact i think many woukd like to see the return of classic, one loved, space marine firstborn boxes

It really just depends tbh

Im more on the side of them doing it but thats me

[slate cloak]

To be fair, that guy is standing on a tactical rock

[trim shale]

There are better pics but they are clearly made to be EC sized

[small glen]

I mean GW is already sort of going halfway with that through new intercessors having "Mk7" helmets.

[spring onyx]

Not really, the helmets have always been designed to be reverse compatible

[subtle hawk]

DG are already full nurgle at the siege and they will never use white scars unless they suddenly create a new paint that allows new people to easily paint white :X

[dense hamlet]

Contrast apothecary white is good enough for most people.

[subtle hawk]

actually, it started with index astartes :X they had the pre-heresy colour schemes in them

[trim shale]

when do we expect this to come out

[verbal mauve]

Once the scouring books have developed a bit more

[trim shale]

next year or in 5

[verbal mauve]

Personally I think once they've reached out from the Sol system we will have an idea of where each legion is going during this period

[trim shale]

personally for a scouringbox, id love an updated castefarrum, terminators and mkvii with maybe assault squads coming out too

my biggest fear is that they remove the old firstborn kits. It really depends if they remove all firstborn out of 40k but i think it might upset some people

although i am eager to see how they handle it

i have heard criticism on the HH poses so that might also be up for improvement? but most kits i see have the same 5 cycling poses tbh?

but yeah, thats about all id need. maybe those bikers need to be redone. and a HH scout squad/updated recon marines could be nice. Would kill for a more classical scout squad to be made

[verbal mauve]

No

They have spent the last few years on plastic to ensure all weapons are designed to work with the bodies

[trim shale]

i think its moreso the legs? but when i hear people discuss this, i can't help but notice the old marines being almost entirely the same squat stances

however, i do think some more arms that are perhaps a bit more melee oriented couldn't hurt tho

[dense hamlet]

I could see a MK7 tactical box being the same poses with an added weapon option sprue in liu of the extra 10 bodies. (and cheaper)

[trim shale]

i think that could be the best bet. i think the issue is that firstborn in 30k might be a different scale to 40k firstborn

[dense hamlet]

Well yeah they would use heresy scale.

[trim shale]

it would maybe leave some of the 40k fans a bit sad that there exist no 40k firstborn since mkvii is still something we saw in 40k

[dense hamlet]

Every heresy kit is first born, they have just upscaled things over time.

[trim shale]

i think thats the issue, i think it might be odd unless castellan crowe and the infernal master are designed to be "larger" since they are taller than legionaries and rubric. legionaries are here to stay for a bit with all the kits. so the biggest worry is how they handle it. i don't mind taller characters but i think they have to put their foot down on what a firstborn is supposed to be in 40k

[marsh sage]

They have

They have basically just said it doesnt matter anymore and have been ignoring all the original Primaris stuff and basically treating it like a new Armor MK

[dense hamlet]

I wish they had just done that from the start.

[trim shale]

i dont understand?

[dense hamlet]

New kits aren't labelled "primaris" anymore.

[marsh sage]

GW doesnt reall bother differentiating them anymore

New Terminators for example are just "either"

[trim shale]

what i mean is the fact EC, and red corsairs are primaris sized but khorne berzerkers aren't? legionaries too i believe. its all a bit muddly

HH is its own scale i think, but in which case if they make the HH mkvii smaller than red corsairs it might toss people in a loop. since they are apparently bigger then chosen so?

i think the easiest fix would just make then heresy scale and release heresy scale indoms? thats my two cents. I am aware scale difference doesn't effect other as much as it does me

[trim shale]

i think that's a bit difficult to call. but if we assume that red corsairs are default firstborn size, despite the fact they are primaris sized. then it makes sense how they'd fit in indoms. just my point that i don't know if others might appreciate mkvii being short boys still when there are already other massive mkvii chaos kits out there. thats just me though, I wouldn't mind if we got some taller mkvii tho but realistically we see them delegated to HH size. if that's the case all i'd really want is appropriately scaled indoms or smth

it could also be a good opportunity to bring back more of the retired firstborn kits, which i am excited for

e.g. old bikers, castefarrum update, return of assault marines and vv vets. firstborn sternguard and more. which I personally would love to get. even if it is HH scale

[dense hamlet]

I don't really know how to respond to that. consistency across ranges has never been great even within the same faction. If the scouring is a HH sub brand it will be heresy scaled. Both heresy and 40k systems will probably slowly creep up over time. WE were probably designed when they still had the bigger distinction between firstborn and primaris.

[trim shale]

yeah, the consistency thing is still odd. i have no clue why they made rc so large. or if thats just a chosen thing. personally? I just hope it looks good. if they ever remove the tac squad from 40k ill be pretty darn sad tho. we should at least get 40k firstborn if they ever decide to muddy the scale more

[marsh sage]

40K firstborn isnt gonna be a thing they are removing the disinction

[trim shale]

so in which case, will we ever see a 40k tac squad update? or will the HH box be the supplement? the answer is probably "anyone's guess" but this is the speculation channel so?

[marsh sage]

It would probably be just a multi build intersessors kit to let them take a heavy weapon or 2

[trim shale]

so in tacticus armour? not aquilla?

[marsh sage]

Units and armor MKs are not the same thing

[trim shale]

sorry i believe im getting a bit lost

[marsh sage]

They are gonna mix in armor parts in all future units to some degree probably

[trim shale]

ah okay, but we won't ever see an older mark come back in the traditional sense. just bits in primaris?

[marsh sage]

I mean maybe a bit

More likely they just use HH for that stuff

[mighty bay]

I think the SW blood claws have the most firstborn looking style at the moment for a primaris unit.

[trim shale]

yeah, they are the models i adore the most

but i would rather get a squad of like a boatload of katar garrix

[agile tartan]

I really doubt that GW will bring back firstborn in 40k in any way beyond splashing a few older armor pieces into Mk X models. If primaris was doing poorly enough to resurrect firstborn, we probably would have seen some indication of it in the past decade

[trim shale]

it is a shame, the aquilla pattern is just so gorgeous and id love to see them back in 40k. Only way that happens is if they don't relegate the mkvii squad in the scouring as a box as one you can use in 40k

ill take my 30k one though, am hyped to see how it looks

[agile tartan]

Has there been any strong rumors of Mk VII in HH?

[trim shale]

the one IF leaker

[agile tartan]

Valrak?

[trim shale]

no images, just that they have started designing it or getting the ball rolling for production

i personally don't mind so long as we get more cool firstborn units revived in 30k. but they have been pretty staunch about a lack of crossplay between systems. so its anyone's guess

no word on anything beyond the mkvii armour tho

[agile tartan]

Mk VIII was niche and Mk IX has never been shown, so that's not surprising

Ignore my edits, Im bad at roman numerals

[trim shale]

yeah, but mkviii could look pretty cool. they did say they kept mkix purposefully hidden

so that might be something to consider when they expand on the scouring a bit more

a part of me was hoping it would be more of its own thing though for different scaling. or perhaps we might see it come into a badab like game who knows when in the future

[agile tartan]

Assuming that Mk VIII was actually made during the scouring and not after.

Given the time windows (a few years vs 10,000 years), my money is on it being invented after the scouring

[trim shale]

probably, so it might take a while until we ever see mkviii. but I am far more a fan of mkvii. how likely do you think we see scouring units like vanguard vets, sternguard, bikers and other firstborn units come back in heresy scale? devistators are probably just gonna be mkvii with the firstborn sprue tbh but then again those cabled backpacks are gorgeous

or are they not really scouring things, i got told they came about during the forming of the chapters

[scenic arrow]

I am not sure on the veterans

[trim shale]

apparently we will be getting different sculpts. e.g. alexus polux as an imperial fist and the other legion captains forming their chapters

[scenic arrow]

but things like devestators maybe

unsure if they will have the special weapons attached to backpacks look of the past though

[trim shale]

considering all the assault squads come with shields. I wouldn't be surprised if the assault squad came with more VV style storm shields

[dense hamlet]

I don't think we would get a kit for stuff that could be made with the existing weapon kits.

[trim shale]

yeah, that's an unfortunate loss. nothing i can't kitbash tho

[dense hamlet]

Like yeah some sternguard probbley

[trim shale]

those resin packs are just gorgeous

i might just use those tbh. way drippier

[scenic arrow]

they are nice yeah, a pain to use though i've heard

[trim shale]

main issue is the hands, but i can try and trim them

[trim shale]

as in bending the cables or getting them to slot in? its a bit rougher for sure but the cool factor is way worth the pain

[dense hamlet]

They can be a pain to bend.

I did one once.

Its not horrible.

[trim shale]

yeah, not looking forward to heating it up in boiling water

[scenic arrow]

I never heard specifics I just heard folk struggles with them

[trim shale]

personally, all id fancy is indoms. but my main concern is we don't get as gorgeous a pose as we did before with the 40k indoms. however a normal kit with bolters and fists could be great and then an optional upgrade sprue or seperate squad with hammers and shields could be the best way to do it?

those sternguard cloaks on mkvii would be elite tho icl

could probabaly kitbash firstborn bladeguard with those

[subtle hawk]

You can just use 40k indomitus just fine ...

[spring onyx]

I dunno, id say an extra Indom terminator kit might be redundant, but this is the space marine range we are talking about 😄

[dense hamlet]

Aren't the 40k indomitus massive

[spring onyx]

About Primaris, as it was explained to me, "GW" never really drew much of a line between the two kinds of space marine, and got a bit annoyed/confused about why exactly the customers did (Which says a lot about their lack of customer research again) which is why it got sort of gradually phased out as a thing as the range scaled up.

Essentially they are all space marines to "gw" individual employees opinions will differ obviously.

[dense hamlet]

I mean they wrote a lot of lore about them being better and it being a one way process

They kind of created the dividing line

[spring onyx]

The new thing is always best, buy the new thing. Its not exactly a complicated motivation

[dense hamlet]

Correct but for them to say they don't understand is silly

They also redid the structure of chapters and created entirely new units

[trim shale]

yeah, thats the main "issue" for me. they are made for primaris not 30k. I personally wouldn't mind a scouring box with pre primaris terms

[subtle hawk]

no they are not, they are actually just right scaled this time. 2nd edition terminators were even smaller than the ~5th edition ones ..... there is 0 lore difference between the "new" indomitus and old ones lol

[trim shale]

ive heard this many times before. but if you compare tartaros and cataphractii they just seem much too bulky for me. they say they fit firstborn and primaris but i don't see it. 🙂

you can also compare to csm terms, there are always gonna be inconsistencies and that's just life. but it certainly wouldn't hurt to get some for 30k, that's just me though

[trim shale]

I would dig seeing the old space marine captain return as a praetor of sorts. The old commander backpack would slap.

[keen ivy]

You can still get a version of that with the legion champion (the older one)

[trim shale]

lookin a little rough

[keen ivy]

Looks better unpainted and it’s still a 13/14 year old kit I think
Primarchs from around that time look great still

[spring onyx]

Its a bit of a rough paint job but thats the high water era for detailed resin kits

[simple oasis]

A lot of the old resin guys have rough paint jobs on the store

[subtle hawk]

I mean, most people prefer the old realistic/gritty FW style over the 'eavy metal one :x

Custodes are a good example, the new 'eavy metal paintjobs are ... weird

[keen ivy]

Like Eavy metal looks great for showing off the model (minus faces) but yeah the old beaten look just looks good as well

[verbal mauve]

I think it's good for making clear all of the individual pieces of the model but I love the gritty look as well of the FW paint style

[simple oasis]

I'm not against the style itself it just makes certain models look more lumpy/weird than they actually are when you see them unpainted

[brittle sonnet]

A lot of this comes down to the photography as well - older FW stuff is very heavily oversaturated / bright on the webstore.

[marsh sage]

Honestly some FW models looked better once I saw them unpianted lol

[flint warren]

The Kurze model is a great example, he looks so rough on the store

[verbal mauve]

Lorgar looks like a potato left in a bathtub to wrinkle

[spring onyx]

Yeah the forgeworld stuff always look better irl, they were terrible at showing scale too for the longest time.

[pliant hollow]

Their bare resin shots almost always looked better.
Even until recently their promo paintjobs have been very inconsistent in quality

[trim shale]

What are your hopes for this game? Personally a tac squad update and destroyer update. I rather it be more a standalone lit like csm legionaries. What do you guys think. Id rather it not be the copy paste pose formula

[slate cloak]

I'm expecting MkVII tacs, boxnaught, and maybe a plastic Land Speeder Proteus

Probs command characters as well like a generic Centurion or Praetor in MkVII? Maybe an assault squad too?

[trim shale]

Im really hoping they give is more poses and not just a copy paste tbh

[slate cloak]

They will copy paste the poses for the tacs

It's... kinda a rule at this point

[trim shale]

Id totally dig more of a tac squad and destroyer squad refresh

[slate cloak]

Otherwise, compatibility issues

[slate cloak]

Why would they do destroyers

[trim shale]

I mean i get it but the more i look the worse it is

[slate cloak]

Especially for the Scouring, of all things? HH 3.0 is primed to have plastic Destroyers released at some point. Why add them to a game where they aren't even thematically present?

[trim shale]

As a more standalone game, it wouldn't hurt to deviate a bit. Id rhatger they use it as a way tk breathe life into older kits

[slate cloak]

I mean

It's the Scouring. Not really something you deviate from

I'd imagine all the legion units are in the Scouring army roster

[trim shale]

The same tac formula 50 times over with a stiff upgrade kit does get old after a while

[slate cloak]

Well it's what people want

[trim shale]

The old resin guys had more poses goddamnn

[slate cloak]

They also had entirely different weapon setups

You had open hands for two-handed gun holding and it looked ugly as sin

If they're making a Scouring game it's for people with nostalgia for MkVII firstborn, and Destroyers are... not that.

[trim shale]

You mean the mkvii guys with heavy weapons. Arent they called destroyers.

[slate cloak]

Oh, you mean devastators

[trim shale]

Yeah

[slate cloak]

These are destroyers

That's why I was confused

[trim shale]

Honestly id be fine with a tac and assault squads if they just had more poses

Yeah knew i was saying smth wrong

[slate cloak]

Assault squads will definitely have more poses, the MkII and MkVI squads have very little overlap

Tac squads kinda need to repeat poses

[trim shale]

I dont feel like it needs to but that's me

It would be just as easy to make another pose mould for the other 5 guys

Whatever they decide, i hope its more inspired. Id be crazy sad if its just rigid mkvii again. Id totally dig more modular kits

Its still shocking to me how legionaries get more poses

Plus with mkvii they gotta bring back the plasma pistols

So i wouldn't mind if they decided to push them away from the compatible HH series. They can always make the arm gap the same to fit other kits

[slate cloak]

Expect the generic command sprue

It would be cool but I seriously doubt GW wants to step that far from Heresy's cross-compatibility

[trim shale]

Ngl if they make mkvii and slap the hh pistols its shoddy and sloppy work

[trim shale]

Most of it is just having an open wrist and the bolter is just a wrist gap issue

I doubt its that hard to make them compatible

[slate cloak]

idk man 🤷‍♀️

[tender bay]

Base it on the 2e rules and you've got me in

[slate cloak]

Highly doubt they'd do that

[trim shale]

more than likely a suppliment for 3e or its gonna be its own game

[tender bay]

Me too, which makes me safe, lol

[spring onyx]

I'm sure there are those in gw already eyeing the seemingly redundant 28mm sci fi battle system with distaste, a third would be pushing it to say the least 😄

[hollow pivot]

watch this be about how GW intend to expand Legions Imperialis instead of 30k

[spring onyx]

Getting xenos back in epic would be great can't lie 😄

[marble mural]

Maybe a plastic Templar brethren kit with sigismund in plastic. similarly nassir amit and maybe dawnbringers in plastic for blood angels

[slate cloak]

I’m PRAYING for plastic Templars

[worthy quest]

So tbh I have been glancing at this thread. has there been anything concrete yet? leaks etc. or is it still "insider rumors"

[spring onyx]

Templars feel like an odd choice to open a Scouring range with, the narrative focus is probably on the Ultramarines and they are so trivial to kitbash already.

A super gnarly "Veterans of the Siege" Templar unit/army would be a pretty cool alternate unit though

[verbal mauve]

Mostly that it is going to happen eventually. For something concrete a recent article about the scouring hinted at campaign books in the period

[slate cloak]

I agree, but plastic Templars are a unit I just want generally

[dense hamlet]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/xmlkha5o/the-scouring-timeline-how-the-warhammer-studio-worked-with-black-library-authors-on-the-new-series/ "as well as setting things up for any potential future gaming books"

[simple oasis]

I don't see them skipping the siege and doing the scouring first

[verbal mauve]

The Scouring is probably not being touched until all the major Heresy beats have been covered. It existing in campaign books is likely just so Heresy isn't forced into a corner of repeating the same events. It also benefits from being much more vague on older lore details meaning they don't need to have Ultramarines or Thousand Sons sidelined for most of the series

[hollow pivot]

I mean, GW have published multiple books about the same events many times. Beta Garmon, Tallarn, Istvaan, they've all been 'covered' in one way or another.

[spring onyx]

I can totally see them skipping the siege sadly, they are already repeating events off their own back too!

But yeah, ignoring the time when the 40k badged stuff is useful to a new era seemingly without chaos gribble seems all too plausible

[verbal mauve]

Yeah but those try to look at new perspectives at least. And for the LI books they offer a wider idea of the battles

I can't really see them doing another Dropsite book/journal for awhile without repeating themselves tbh

[slate cloak]

I think they will absolutely release a Siege book, it makes no sense not to. So many opportunities for new characters and rules

[scenic arrow]

it would be funny to get Maximus thane rules from it

war of the beast games real in the big 2026

[marble mural]

Also lines up with the constant rumours of new plastic Dorn. Also allows for plastic Khan on bike and plastic Sanguinius

Valrak has said the new rumoured dorn model is based on his time during the siege which also lines up with GW saying each primarch will get a new plastic model

[spring onyx]

And yet just as they were getting riiiiight close to the siege? Literally right back to the start again for the magazines. Its feeling very deliberate at this point.

[slate cloak]

The thing is, the “progress” of the heresy resets every edition

If every edition kept going where the last one left off, 2.0 would have finished the entire Siege of Terra storyline before reaching halfway through its lifespan.

Besides, they were still releasing the Siege of Terra books back then.

Now that the whole series is out, they can focus on expanding that lore

[spring onyx]

Thats not really true? Theyve been moving forward pretty consistently since Betrayal, 3rd edition is the first "reset".

Plus, actually covering the whole story is the goal, not a problem 😄

[slate cloak]

No there were some repeats between 1.0 and 2.0, but I digress. Covering the whole story actually was a problem as a bunch of lore for the Siege didn’t exist yet.

[spring onyx]

In 2nd edition? End and the death was finished shortly after it was released from my memory of what Dan Abnett has said. All the other books were released and could easily support years of gaming supplements even if SDS didnt add more of their own side campaigns like they did on Cthonia.

[slate cloak]

They plan out those campaign books years in advance.

I’d hardly say they had a SoT book ready to coincide with TEATD

[spring onyx]

Ok so you really need to stop digging down at this point lol

[fleet socket]

I think we’re forgetting how early in the heresy the black books still were. We still hadn’t even covered the shadow crusade or Imperium Secundus. It’s honestly weird 2.0 skipped straight to late heresy with its first two books

[agile tartan]

Had to dodge the UM poster boys allegations from 40K by skipping the shadow crusade

[fleet socket]

They may have struggled with the required 3 ultramarine focussed books to cover that part of the heresy

[small glen]

Imperium Secundus would make for an interesting campaign book.

[fleet socket]

It’s a bit of an aborted arc and thanks to Abnett’s health issues and could do with filling out with more detail

[verbal mauve]

Probably because they wanted to tie it into the late Heresy with MK VI. Also it was likely to establish that they didn't want to follow a chronological order anymore for the campaign books

Imperium Secundus would be a weird campaign book