11E Warhammer 40,000 - Orks. vs Space Marines

[lilac onyx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKd6Dt4n_E

• heard that the next big narrative will revolve around Orks vs. Space Wolves
• heard that Orks will be the main antagonist in 11E

[lament mulch]

huh

first time non UM are the main marines?

[lilac onyx]

3E was Black Templars.

6E (and technically the 7E reprint) was Dark Angels.

That said, the core box is likely to be "unbranded" generic Space Marines, but with Space Wolves colours / transfers.

[barren echo]

cover of 2e's was blood angels as well

[short crane]

Cover of 1e was Crimson Fists. Wish they gave us something for them 😔

[summer anchor]

Oh yes, please. Crimson Fists would be much more fitting than Space Wolves vs Orkz

[surreal ridge]

I hope that if it’s push fit marines they come with an additional wolfy sprue you can swap bits of in to build them as space wolves

[short crane]

real

[scenic palm]

Ork edition, Armageddon 4????

[velvet shadow]

Plastic Cortez please. Bring our boy back

[jovial spindle]

That would be so cool. But how would they justify a new launch pushfit unit? Since all the major ones we can think of are already taken. Unless they decide to do updated tacticals and the SW upgrade sprue is to make them into Grey Hunters (if Grey Hunters still get other weapon options instead of mono-loadouts, but that's another discussion.)

[scenic palm]

I think intercessors are gonna get redone to have more customization, the new stern guard vets have the leg customization which could be a thing going forwards

I could see chapter specific leg bits being added to upgrade sprues

[jovial spindle]

Leg customization? Going to have to double check that.

[scenic palm]

Phrased that wrong, meant like shins

[jovial spindle]

But I would be pleasantly surprised if Intercessors do get redone in a way that gives them more customization.

Though a part of me wishes for a redone tactical squad.

[scenic palm]

I'd love if they introduced these fit intercessors

For

[unkempt grove]

Wouldnt be surprised if a redone tactical squad is just going to be intercessors with more wargear options like tactical squads

[craggy zenith]

It's easily been long enough to see new push fit intercessors, or a primaries tactical squad of some kind

[unkempt grove]

Wouldn't be surprised if they hold off on any redesigns of primaris kits until everything else has been finished. We're still waiting on vanguard vets, assault terminators, centurions (maybe), some of the HQ variants, and probably a few more special/heavy weapon squads

[jovial spindle]

It would make the most logical sense.

[barren echo]

would not be surprised to see some kits go away too

[jovial spindle]

Sadly yes.

[scenic palm]

I'm just hoping if there's Orks we could get a single Armageddon model

Just one and I could make a hundred conversions

[jovial spindle]

So if Orks are the 11e launch enemy. What new/updated kits do you guys expect?

[barren echo]

stormboyz, lootas, meganobz, weirdboys

warbikers too. maybe a new trukk, tho they've got the beast one now.

battlewagons are also pretty old now i think

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Miniatures:_Orks really just go through this and you'll see a lot of old models still being sold lol

[jovial spindle]

You know what would be funny? If they brought back the Grot Bomb Launcher in plastic.

[rain harness]

it hasnt been that long since we got that orks vs space wolves box with the new ghazz

how certain are we that this is the matchup for the box?

[summer anchor]

Give us the lifta droppa

[scenic palm]

Boyz at least

[winged rain]

I think likely refreshes are Weirdboy, Boyz multi-option, multi-option Warboss, Nob Squad, Warbikers, Stormboyz, Lootas/Burna Boyz, Gretchins

Unsure about Meganobz as they are stylistically similar to the new Warboss in Mega Armour

I think new kits could be Squiggoth and Grot Tanks?

[jovial spindle]

Yeah I can see some FW units coming back.

[velvet shadow]

Plastic mega dread would be nice so my fw on is legal again

[scenic palm]

I could see Orks finally getting an actual mbt

[cold snow]

not gonna happen. next edition will be ultramarines

[surreal ridge]

Oh what source?

[cold snow]

i have no source im saying what i simply believe will happen

[surreal ridge]

Fair enough, goes in line with most other editions of the game anyway

[unkempt grove]

AoS 4e using Hallowed Knights instead of Hammers of Sigmar as the boxart stormhost could be an indicator of GW becoming more willing to use other subfactions as the posterboy for a limited time. 10e still having UM could have simply been because UM vs Tyranids is a classic match up lore wise.

Of course, UM are much more ingrained as a posterboy subfaction than any of the stormcast subfactions could ever be.

[cold snow]

sorry but poster boys of AoS are Skavens its just gw doesnt know

[scenic palm]

Honestly even as an ultramarines player I wish other factions got more, although they aren't my main

[craggy zenith]

There is a tonne of precedent for other chapters in the starters, but honestly a lot of the focus is because blue is easy to paint and looks good in promo material

[cold snow]

i think theres exactly one exception since 2004

[craggy zenith]

Even that arbitrary cut off has two editions of dark angels, it's like 50:50 overall

[lament mulch]

"arbitrary cutoff" that is 20 years ago

[craggy zenith]

Round numbers can still be arbitrary 😄 they restructure the design teams significantly more often than that!

[lilac onyx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzJS-8b6B6s

• has heard that 11E is releasing in Summer 2026, not breaking the three-year cycle
• has heard that the launch box is Space Marines vs. Orks (previously mentioned as Space Wolves vs. Orks)
• Orks; new elite units, a new warboss
• Space Marines; nothing specific mentioned, possibly previously mentioned Space Marine models (drop pod, Outriders, etc)

[lilac onyx]

11E Warhammer 40,000 - Orks. vs Space Marines

[severe mauve]

I hope they give a new multipose boyz box

The current new boyz are rubbish

[red relic]

as someone who bought 3 Assault on Black Reach, I welcom an ork based starter

[snow rock]

It's nice to be the main character for a while

[scenic palm]

I have since then taken up black Templars

[lilac onyx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyXiCYgZq7Q

[lilac onyx]

Summary of the alleged rumours above;

• reiterates previous rumour about the core box being Space Marines vs. Orks; has heard a few whispers regarding contents
• for Space Marines; a brand new Land Speeder variant, new HQ (heavy weapons-themed) that can be attached to heavy weapons squads, a new Tactical Squad (reminiscent of older marks, brought up to new scale - uncertain on weapon options)
• Orks rumour are more unclear and may / may not be in the box; has heard about new Stormboyz, new MegaNobz
• hoping to hear more on the contents soon™

[red relic]

As long as it's done by the people who sculpted the modern buggies, not the people who sculpted beastsnaggas

[main pagoda]

Reckon it'll be neither.

Sounds more like a generalist Ork refresh rather than anything subfaction related.

Shouldn't have much in terms of Speed Freeks or Beast Snaggas.

Probably safe to expect it'll be this sort of overall look.

[red relic]

they have 3 teams of ork sculptors?

[main pagoda]

I'd say, only one.

[rain harness]

do they actually have teams for every faction?

[unkempt grove]

I doubt they do.

There's too many factions to have dedicated teams for each one.

Instead they probably just have "Bob is good at making orks so we assign him the ork models, while James does eldar really well so we put him on the eldar refresh project."

[rain harness]

that is what i thought as well

if they had a team for each faction then some of those teams have been slacking for years

[short crane]

they havent put jimmy on the thousand sons for wayy too long

[scenic palm]

I'm so glad it's not beastsnaggas

[cold snow]

really wish I could see the GW design language guidelines

all the 3d printed stuff looks so obviously 3rd party

[red relic]

there's definitely different tiers of quality in contemporary sculpts... the beast snagga war rig in particular being dogshite compared to tankbustas, kommandos etc

[scenic palm]

"3D printing is amazing" and it'll be the most mid models you've ever seen

[main pagoda]

Some are more blessed than others.

I've seen some banger CSM and SM stuff.

Xenos can get blursed.

[jovial spindle]

Pretty much why if I do get to having someone print Orks for me. It's going to be GearGutz. And not just because it has Hillbilly Orks and a miniature of one of my favorite Youtubers.

[scenic palm]

Sometimes I look for guard stls and then I remember it's all kriegslop

[latent siren]

Reptilian overlord

[red relic]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/victoriaminiatures/space-aussies-2-mechanised-kangaroo

[jovial spindle]

Reptillian Overlord, Anvil Industries, Victoria Miniatures, etc.

Many that are NOT krieg.

[barren echo]

does anyone know which valrak video this rumor is from?

Devastator Captain

new Landspeeder variant

nu-Tactical Squad

Vanguard Veterans

Flame-based Dreadnaught variant

Multipart Outriders

i saw the dread/vanvets one in one video, but dunno about the others.

supposedly it's "recent" but that's all i have to go on from the forum post describing the video's rumors.

[unkempt grove]

I know i've heard all of this rumors at one point or another, but they might have been spread out

[lilac onyx]

I have the video somewhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU3FOgP-9pQ

Summary of the alleged rumours above;

• has heard that 11E will functionally be 10.5E; no real major rules changes
• late 10E codices will allegedly be back-end compatible with 11E
• reiterates prior Space Marines vs. Orks core box rumour
• reiterates previous Space Marines rumours; Vanguard Veterans, Land Speeders, multipart Outriders, Devastator HQ

[dim plover]

Man tenth sucked enough

I was hoping eleventh would be better

[rain harness]

10th isnt my jam but i can respect that they dont do a complete reset like the shift from 9th to 10th

[lament mulch]

what does a devastator hq mean?

[rain harness]

probably a HQ that is focused on shooting

[unkempt grove]

Ye like a heavy weapon HQ

Would be neat given that it's a role that marines (and honestly most factions) normally don't have use that niche

The last marine heavy weapon HQ I can think of is the armistos

[rain harness]

there have been some shooting guys but i cant remember one that had a heavy weapon

[lament mulch]

that’d be neat

[unkempt grove]

Main ones I can think of are sniper HQs, and I think the Harlequin's Death Jester?

[lament mulch]

do non generic characters count

bc maugen ra exists

[unkempt grove]

Im not counting them, otherwise I would include Fuegan

And ya Maugen Ra

[lament mulch]

i think you can also make autarchs pretty shooty tho

[unkempt grove]

That's true

[lament mulch]

do space marines have any generic melee focused hq’s? like no option but to build them that way?

the non generic chapters have a few p sure

[unkempt grove]

Melee focused? I think that would include most marine HQs

[lament mulch]

also i was gunna mention the t’au coldstar commander but

t’au lol

[unkempt grove]

All captains, lieutenants, and chaplains are at least partially (and often) mainly melee characters

[lament mulch]

oh ok thats true

[rain harness]

i would think that devestator HQ is an astartes

[main pagoda]

Do you count librarians as ranged?

[unkempt grove]

Oh I agree. I was more talking about how the "heavy weapon HQ" niche is pretty rare in general

[rain harness]

i remember the hive tyrant could get some guns

that was scary

orks also have the meks

death guard also have some of their special characters

[main pagoda]

The Hive Tyrant at one point could have twin-linked devourers and some ranged weapon yeah.

[unkempt grove]

And the new votann scientist guy

[rain harness]

i remember in 9th where it had some insane relic shooting weapon. legit one of the scariest shooting units in the game at that point

[main pagoda]

Maw-Claws of Thirax

[unkempt grove]

Nids had some insane stuff in general to be fair back in 9e

[rain harness]

genestealers cults also have shooting HQs

[main pagoda]

There was also Kraatos no?

[rain harness]

a wild time

[unkempt grove]

I think GW got their timeline mixed up on when they were supposed to make nids the big bad of the edition lol

[rain harness]

necrons also has a ton of shooting HQs actually

[main pagoda]

You know who else is ranged?

[unkempt grove]

Anywho, shooty marine HQ could be fun. Wouldnt be surprised if they shove him in gravis as well. Hopefully he gets some gun options

[unkempt grove]

The first thing that popped into my head after reading that was "your mom"

[rain harness]

i dont think it is gravis

maybe he has that new stupid missile launcher

[unkempt grove]

I swear I am a mature adult

[unkempt grove]

I would support that simply because I want to see more people be mad about it

[rain harness]

he should have an even crazier version

make it fire 5 seperate types of missiles

[unkempt grove]

Shoulder mounted missile pods and dual wielding castellan launchers

With a jump pack

[rain harness]

shoulder mounted weapons and both hands empty

[unkempt grove]

One way or the other, someone is exploding

[lament mulch]

i hope we get a few options one in terminator and one in gravis, a big shooty shooty terminator HQ would be swag

so would more gravis units tho

idk why desolation squads arent gravis

[empty rapids]

i mean tech marines technically (they can join desolators lol)

but a kakophonist is the newest ranged hq specialist

11th not being a reset is a choice i can respect, i quite like 10th foundation its just missing some of the sauce

[lament mulch]

they can make a better game if they make a simple foundation and build on it over the years rather than constantly remaking the foundation

[barren echo]

10th has been my favorite version of the core rules

really the single huge issue i have is the points/power level thing that has made balance so fucked up

[atomic panther]

reiterates previous Space Marines rumours; Vanguard Veterans, Land Speeders, multipart Outriders, Devastator HQ
Wasn't there previously talk about a revamped Terminator Assault Squad? That was the kit I was most looking forward to.

[unkempt grove]

iirc some rumors are saying that will be in a separate (potentially still 10e) release

[atomic panther]

Oh, if they come out earlier, that would be nice.

[barren echo]

@atomic panther most recent rumor was they're coming with the updated codex, and then the christmas box for marines will be all the new generic terminators together. so assault+normal+ancient+captain+chaplain+librarian.

[silk merlin]

I think there were no actually rumors of a marine codex 2 that was just Valrak assuming there would be one even though GW hasnt done that recently

[placid hull]

Yeah with how late into the edition it is I don't see a whole codex happening now

[silk merlin]

Plus GW has embraced digital updates and additions so there is no reason for one especially when wanted to make it a point to only need one codex

[barren echo]

we know there's something coming, just not the shape of it

[jovial spindle]

So I'm guessing new Tacticals are out the window?

[unkempt grove]

No real confirmation one way or another

Though I think the rumors about that Primaris tactical squad/Intercessor update weren’t specifically targeting 11e launch?

[placid hull]

yeah that was just a general rumor

nothing tied to 11th

[jovial spindle]

What we do know is that now with Assault Termies being confirmed not to be in the 11e Launch Box, we can scratch that off.

[barren echo]

which means the other rumor for the 11e launch is a little closer to confirmed lol

[jovial spindle]

What's the other rumor?

[barren echo]

#1315651766163079168 message

[lament mulch]

idk where to ask but does anyone have the source for this

[main pagoda]

Back to 3rd edition.

[sharp ingot]

Well there you go

[lament mulch]

ok why do so many combat patrols have bladeguard in them

[placid hull]

One of the more updated space marine elites?

Honestly I'm surprised there hasn't been a single combat patrol that has Sternguard yet

[lament mulch]

i swear there was one

[placid hull]

I don't think so I've seen hellblasters and the company hero's

[unkempt grove]

Company heroes in the IF box, and hellblasters in the DA box

As for bladeguard being everywhere, theyre a good melee unit for the melee based chapters, their visual theme works well with other chapters even if they arent melee based, and theyre probably one of the most popular primaris units sales wise

Most primaris units have their supporters and detractors, but I rarely hear people talk shit about bladeguard

Also doing a quick scroll through, sternguard are not present in combat patrol boxes currently and bladeguard are present in three boxes (BT, DA, and UM)

[lament mulch]

if they were a super popular unit saleswise would it not be bad to put them in so many value boxes

this is a genuine question bc usually its the other way around where value boxes are where the less popular stuff goes

[unkempt grove]

Pretty sure it's a mix. If it was just poorly selling units then terminators wouldnt be in the boxes either. Nor would popular chapter specific stuff like sword brethren

And you obviously want some popular units in the boxes to encourage people to buy them

If the box doesnt have any popular/appealing units, people aren't going to want to buy it, even if the box has a nice discount

[silk merlin]

The new DoW trailer has new design Stormboyz

[trail oasis]

Cause they’re GOATED

[unkempt grove]

Oh 100%

Bladeguard are great

[trail oasis]

favorite 40K model by far

[main pagoda]

Same reason let's say the tyranid one has genestealers and a biovore next to the parasite and tyrant guard.

Those sell so they package them together with stuff that doesn't.

[lament mulch]

using this as an excuse to post my mantis warrior bladeguard

i love them but they are in SO MANY boxss lol

[unkempt grove]

I see no problem with that lol. Just gives me an excuse to get more bladeguard

[lament mulch]

im surprised they didnt wait until 11th ed to release the ultramarines combat patrol

[lament mulch]

oh yea i lowkey kinda wanna get both the IF and UM boxes for myself for christmas

[unkempt grove]

Though as I mentioned earlier, theyre only in 3 patrol boxes, out of I think 9. Still a solid proportion, but not a majority

[lament mulch]

thats 10 intercessors 5 reivers 3 bladeguard (for my 3 existing) 5 heavy ints (ontop of my existing 5) company heroes 5 terminators and a guy i can use as a generic librarian

basically all of the combat patrols build REALLY well with eachother

oh the UM box also has aggressors holy shit i didnt even see that

[unkempt grove]

The only thing stopping me from planning on getting the UM box is I have no idea what to do with Tigurius.

Also I already have 30 normal intercessors, and Im not sure I need to make it 35. Though the easy solution would be to just get two UM boxes so I get 40 intercessors

[lament mulch]

is there any reason he couldnt just be used as a generic lib

[unkempt grove]

lot of UM iconography

[lament mulch]

though as a chapter that doesnt exist on the table im in a unique position of i can run my mantis warriors as ultramarines to use their shit

[unkempt grove]

Its probably doable to shave it all off, but Im not sure I want to deal with that

[unkempt grove]

I play DA successors, so its a little harder for me

[lament mulch]

i think i could have a lot of fun with um rules

playing victrix and bladeguard squads together sounds neat

[barren echo]

valrak said recently the marines in the box are gonna be painted as blood angels, which is neat. last time that happened was 2e.

[unkempt grove]

I believe that rumor has come up more than a few times back in 9e, so I would take it with a grain of salt

[barren echo]

would be funny if it ended up being blood RAVENS since dow4 is hitting around the same time

[empty rapids]

lol, lmao.

[lilac onyx]

Not from Valrak's sources, no.

The one relating to 10E was Reddit.

[dim plover]

Oh please let this be true. Would absolutely infuriate my local Space Wolf player who insists it’s painted in SW colors

[barren echo]

space wolves was an earlier rumor even said by valrak so it makes sense they'd want to believe it

[main pagoda]

It'd be somewhat cool if they whipped out the 2nd edition era Blood Angels scheme and branded it as just a generic new ultima founding chapter or something.

I think these are thoroughly distinct enough.

[lament mulch]

note that the modern ba captain does have (1) yellow shoulder

you just cant see it due to the way he’s posed

so the schemes are kinda almost identical

[main pagoda]

What I'm saying is I'm coping and seething over the old Blood Angels Orange paint being orange and I wish they remained that way.

[lament mulch]

there is no orange on either of those guys

[celest condor]

Just.. paint them the og colours then - I am lol

[empty rapids]

Today we learn that everyone here is colour blind

[hybrid arch]

And here I was thinking they were green

[atomic panther]

Them being orange explains why I like them so much less than 30k Thousand Sons. Now THAT is a proper red.

[scenic palm]

I'm colourblind and I don't see any orange

[midnight elbow]

Maybe, but where people draw the line between what one calls orange and red differs a lot in my experience. And these certainly don't look like an orange at least

[lament mulch]

i’d say the current 40k blood angels colour is closer to orange than the retro one

and thats because of the way its shaded/highlighted

[unkempt grove]

Getting off topic here

[atomic panther]

Are Orks set in stone as the second core box faction for the new edition? Because I have also heard it might be Drukhari. Though not sure if that's some founded rumor or just wishful thinking of some.

[empty rapids]

Drukhari as far as I am aware is just copium

[silk merlin]

Wishful Copium

Drukhari would not be coming out last in the edition if they were gonna be the launch army for 11th

Some people thoght since they hadnt been announced yet they were not gonna get a 10th codex because they were gonna get the big focus in 11th. For some reason

[barren echo]

way i've heard it is orks in the launch box, drukhari get a range refresh later

[silk merlin]

Ya

[muted peak]

later

so never lol, they're gonna axe dark eldar before they'll give them a refresh

[unkempt grove]

I feel like people used to say that about kroot

[barren echo]

Also every other leak that then comes true

[next elbow]

people forget all the rumors that were false. it's confirmation bias

[worthy furnace]

I very much doubt they will get rid of dark eldar

That seems silly to suggest.

But they may cut some of the more unorthodox parts of the range in favour of focusing on a specific aspect.

As cool as the alien bodyguards and ghouls and all that extra stuff is xenos need a strong core range

[muted peak]

“Strong core” they are legit only core units they have nothing fancy or anything to differentiate themselves.

[unkempt grove]

That can describe several armies at several points in time across multiple systems, and yet GW didn't axe them but instead expanded their ranges

AoS has/had plenty of armies in a similar or worse state and yet none of them have been axed for that reason.

[placid hull]

i mean we could lose fire slayers

as a treat

[atomic panther]

0% chance that Dark Eldar get "axed". That is some unnecessary fear-mongering.
They'll get new units / replacements for the old resin units eventually.

[main pagoda]

Idk. they're kind of like daemons and GSC in that aspect.

A lot of people really want them merged with "parent factions", or completely removed from the game for some reason.

[trail oasis]

Daemons are a case that is to AoS comparability

GSC and DE will never be folded into the larger section since that means GW has another rule book to sell

[barren echo]

armies get folded when they're too small to deserve their own book. GSC and DE both have wide model ranges, with DE basically already being three armies folded into one.

[sharp vine]

11th ed retcons this to the standard BA scheme

[jovial spindle]

Yeah I never got the desire for merging with parent factions.

[barren echo]

When its like harlies where they have all of 4 non character units its ok

With say gsc they have a huge range of unique stuff

With tons of room to expand even

[topaz inlet]

Id like just having fewer, but larger, factions. With 40k being strict about having close to no allies, having larger rosters would be nice. You could still easily gate certain abilities or interactions to certain subfactions to differentiate the units on the tabletop afterwards.

[jovial spindle]

The fundamental problem is that in that case you get a lot of former factions turned subfactions who end up getting more neglected and suffering hard from being merged into bigger factions.

For example, would GSC still have the ability to take Brood Brothers if they were merged with Tyranids?

[unkempt grove]

It's also going to get bad reception from players of the factions that got folded into other books

[jovial spindle]

Yup. Just look at the surprising amount of backlash that happened when it happened to Deathwatch.

[unkempt grove]

No one likes having their stuff become subordinate to something else

[sharp vine]

Also it would bloat a lot of factions

[unkempt grove]

That too. People also dont like it when books get too big

[sharp vine]

Yes, we need termagants and neophytes because these are totally different things

[jovial spindle]

Which a lot of people already complain about Marine bloat.

[unkempt grove]

And its a big book that a lot of people will not be using the entirety of

If you play GSC, then youre going to be forced to purchase and carry around all of the nid content, even if you dont want anything to do with nids as a faction

[sharp vine]

HMM we do need two separate genestealer datasets

[unkempt grove]

Or if all eldar got folded into one book, then drukhari players need to buy and carry around all of the craftworld content, and vice versa

[jovial spindle]

It's kind of like it you merged Sororitas, Guardsmen, and Admech.

[sharp vine]

I can sorta see a reason to have both Sisters and Guardsman squads in one book

[unkempt grove]

I don't

[sharp vine]

They’re both battleline but aren’t they pretty different?

Skitarii and guardsmen tho, hell nah

[unkempt grove]

They are from very separate factions that should not be merged. They have too many things that set them apart

[jovial spindle]

You'd end up carrying around rules for two whole other factions along with the one you wanted. It would also lead to all three getting pared down rules as all three end up getting less attention than they would if they were independant factions.

[sharp vine]

I mean yeah, but they would both have a role instead of just being the same thing twice

[jovial spindle]

Not to mention, you can already take Battle Sisters in an IG army.

It's called allied units.

[unkempt grove]

Plus, unlike the original dark eldar complaint that started those whole conversation, both guard and SoB have fully developed ranges

[unkempt grove]

Not in 10e unfortunately. Iirc they have a hard no allies rule

[jovial spindle]

Well, Agents of the Imperium is what I meant. Wrong choice of words.

[unkempt grove]

Ah right. Forgot SoB exist in there as well

[jovial spindle]

I got my own opinions on the no allies rule.

Mostly negative. I mean agents is kind of nice and all.

[sharp vine]

I think xenos could use an Agents faction

Daemons or IA style

[jovial spindle]

But it's certainly skewed more in favor of knights.

[unkempt grove]

Xenos are too divided to make that work

They would need to make a very strange book to have a sort of faction that mortal enemies like eldar and necrons would both be willing to work with

[jovial spindle]

Yeah, there's not many xenos that would qualify as agents material.

[sharp vine]

Ehhh, I could see them allying into Tau, Votann, Aeldari, Drukhari and possibly Necrons

[unkempt grove]

Or the book would have to be all over the place and have agents for each different type of xenos

At which point you might as well just add those units to their respective factions

[jovial spindle]

Since Orks, Necrons, and Eldar have been firmly established to not get along with anything not them. Tyranids is an obvious no unless you had rules for Genestealer cult Xenos. Like Genestealer Tau.

[sharp vine]

I think it would be a bunch of miscellaneous xenos who aren’t big enough to get their own faction

[unkempt grove]

Still runs into the allying issue

Because I doubt any of those minor xenos species could be justified to ally with all or most xenos factions, and if they can only ally to some of them then why not just add them to those respective books

Like if Xenos A can only ally with eldar and dark eldar, then add them to those books.

[jovial spindle]

Yeah, the allying system isn't really that well developed since GW is firmly against Soup.

[unkempt grove]

And if Xenos B can only ally with crons, then just put them in the crons book

[jovial spindle]

Ironically the only Xenos I can see being able to ally with Tau and Eldar is the Votann.

And even then Votann aren't the biggest fan of Eldar.

[unkempt grove]

Putting these miscellaneous ally xenos into a separate book would just be forcing people to buy more books and inconveniencing the players

[dim plover]

For Agents?

[unkempt grove]

Already mentioned by Vulkan after I said that

[jovial spindle]

At that point GW is better off just making a Soup Detatchment like they did for Knights and Chaos Knights.

Like realistically making a detatchment for either Tau or LoV that says they can take a small percentage of units from the other faction in their army, with detatchment rules centered around that, is the most reasonable route.

Making an Agents of Xenos book is too much work for something that doesn't really have the foundation for it. An Agents of Chaos book is more likely to get greenlight.

[unkempt grove]

And that would probably just be the daemons book tbh. Assuming daemons survive as an independent faction for that long

[atomic panther]

Tbh, there could be an Agents of Aeldari book.
With Harlequins, Corsairs and Ynnari in it. And both Craftworld Eldar and Drukhari can draw from that unit pool.

[topaz inlet]

Most Factions deserve a bit of bloat. I like not only having one unit for a very defined niche in an army. The fact that sooo many options exist in HH for what is essentially "strong against vehicles, TEQ or MEQ" is amazing imo

[unkempt grove]

And the best way to fix that is to expand the ranges of 40K factions, not to fold factions together and make players of all factions involved unhappy

[sharp vine]

Okay but neophytes and termagants (for example) are just the same thing

it’s like having guardsmen and traitor guardsmen

Or having TSS with meltaguns and HSS, with meltaguns (not multimeltas)

[silk merlin]

Options only matter if they are meaningful

[topaz inlet]

Yeah. They could literally have the same stats and only differ in the fact that the models look different. That would be perfectly fine to me. Tabletopgames are a very "visual" medium in my mind.

Though realistically if they were in the same army and had the same stats, they could just have different keywords that make them synergize differently with other units or abilities.

[topaz inlet]

True. Nothing to disagree here

[topaz inlet]

Eh. I would argue having a gunline of Genestealer mutants is a meaningful difference from having a horde of tyranid gaunts. Even if the stats were the same and they shared the same faction. Dont get me wrong, Id wish they would be more differentiated, but it really wouldnt be a buzzkill to me.

[barren echo]

little bit of valrak

" Checking in with Valrak it sounds like it will be the return of 40K: Armageddon next year. Also mentioned a medium size Imperial Knight and an end narrative book series that focuses on certain characters. "

so end of edition is coming up as expected, going into 11e

[sharp vine]

When was this? Is “next year” ‘25 or ‘26

[silk merlin]

Rumors for Oct 27th:

Admech will get a new skitari battleline unit that specializes in melee, along with a new melee HQ.

new knight class between an Armiger and a Questoris in terms of size. Only mentions it for imperial knights but speculates that it will also show up for chaos knights.

Reiterates points on the plastic Warhound Titan.

Once again mentions Yarik being in the narrative campaign with the orks, no steel legion attached.

Says the end narrative campaign will have books that correspond with model refreshes, like Prince Yerial/the viper kit, Huron Blackheart/Chaos command squad, and possibly Trazyn but thats unconfirmed

Mentions various HH things. New cataphracti terminators, new Tartous terminators, new Abbadon model, new recon squad, and a chance that the new dark mech will be previewed in the november Atlanta open show.

[barren echo]

Is it weird the new recon is the thing that hypes me the most

Wait no chaos command squad holy shit

[unkempt grove]

For the new edition? Probably 2026 since editions tend to be summer releases and 10e released almost 3 years ago (I feel older just by saying that). For the end of edition narrative campaign, potentially starting at the tail end of 2025 (I would bet that it gets revealed at the upcoming reveal show in November), and then going through 2026 until 11e gets released

[barren echo]

Yep thats how all the narrative stuff has gone for a while now. Once all/most of the codexes are out, start releasing narrative stuff that introduces new models and rules. I am hoping for some really cool detachments this time around.

[jovial spindle]

Chaos Command Squad?

[barren echo]

More factions getting the "also you can take some imperial guard" thing

[barren echo]

Mentioned in mojo's post above with huron

[empty rapids]

was gonna happen eventually

[jovial spindle]

Wait that's becoming a thing? More factions can take Imperial Guard?

[jovial spindle]

I'm hyped.

[barren echo]

No that is a hope

Gsc are the only ones that get it now, i want more detachments with ally allotments.

[unkempt grove]

~~Or GW can just make allies a thing again in 11e. ~~

[barren echo]

Guard that can take 500 points of marines, chaos marines getting traitor guard, etc.

[unkempt grove]

If they're scared of tournament balance, just say you can't bring allies in comp matches

[empty rapids]

https://tenor.com/view/jack-tanamen-gecky-incorporeal-gif-21102682

[barren echo]

No i want it in detachment form for unique strats/enhancements.

[empty rapids]

frankly the thing that aos did might be more likely lol

[unkempt grove]

https://tenor.com/view/daeth-funi-periflight-dies-from-gif-22212023

[silk merlin]

Both Knights have it

And all 4 chaos god legions

And Elves

[barren echo]

Specifically guard i mean

Also votann+tau for demiurg

[silk merlin]

It was just balance in general it messed up, they are adding it back in just in a controlled way

[empty rapids]

wait

[silk merlin]

Thats just the Tau name for them now, no LoV are under the Tau, just mercenary work at most

[empty rapids]

what if this is a part of the csm command squad?

i know nowadays apothecaries arent usually a part of em but what if

[barren echo]

I know. Thats what i want on tabletop.

Some tough melee votann would be a big help for tau i think.

[empty rapids]

or you know, any other xeno species.

[barren echo]

Tau/Votann have a pre existing relationship

Playing on the demiurg thing would be fun

[atomic panther]

It still hope that this is from a Horus Heresy Apothecary (upgrade?) kit.

[atomic panther]

Nope. Same for me.
Though I am also intrigued (but cautious) about the medium-sized knight.
And hoping for new, plastic Trazyn.

[sharp vine]

I think it will be

Or some sort of CSM/WE apothecary

40k butcher-surgeon?

[empty rapids]

better not be.

[empty rapids]

literally it could be any csm apothecary other than dg lol

[atomic panther]

Huh? Why? That would be great!

[lilac onyx]

As a reminder - most of these need splitting off into their own threads.

With the source video linked and such.

[sharp vine]

I think the trim isn’t super EC-esque

[empty rapids]

cuz i care more about csm than HH, simple as.

[barren echo]

really hate this honestly. rumors being split off makes it harder to keep track.

[lilac onyx]

It's worse cluttering a single thread, unfortunately.

And given the tag feature exists in the forum to make everything easily searchable that's a fairly moot point.

[barren echo]

more tags would be nice then, to make it easier to search for stuff

[lilac onyx]

Any suggestions? We've a fairly broad spread as is.

[barren echo]

specific factions, or even just like a valrak tag

[lilac onyx]

Factions won't happen as it'd be too many.

Valrak's not going to happen either really.

[barren echo]

i've tried to find old rumors in the past, searching by the faction, and gotten nothing

[cold snow]

11th armageddon or 10th armageddon

[errant plinth]

🙏

[scenic palm]

Dark vengeance

[celest condor]

https://tenor.com/view/old-boomer-history-84years-many-years-ago-gif-18534104

[atomic panther]

2nd ed Blood Angels, 3rd ed Black Templars.

[craggy zenith]

Ultras are only the cover boys on half the editions, its just most the recent ones 😄

[rich rose]

Rogue trader: crimson fists, 5th was also black temars and 6/7th was dark angels. So only 4 editions so far we're ultras. Not even half

[atomic panther]

The Guilleman effect.

[main pagoda]

Reckon that's kind of just the box art colour scheme. The point would still be that the stuff inside is universal.

[tropic trellis]

I think Templars were 3rd edition poster boys. 4/5th were both Ultras with Battle for Macragge and Black Reach boxes, and codex covers being Ultras. 4th was right when I got in so I never knew a non-Ultra dominated SM faction

[celest condor]

Since 2nd edition one has either played one of the 'unique' chapter groups (Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars from 3rd, etc.) or a generic chapter of Space Marines that is to all intents and purposes the Ultramarines, or inspired/descended thereof. Occasionally the other first founding chapters have gotten a look in with a special rule or character here and there, or a way of flavouring generic Ultramarines one way or another. UMs and successors are somewhere between50%-75% of all loyalist marines out there, so it's natural they are the poster boys, what with the Codex Astartes being written by their guy and all. As least as Heresy players we know the UMs at their coolest

[craggy zenith]

Blue looks good on product photographs, i forget the exact explanation but thats why they are poster boys.

[trail oasis]

Also it’s easy to paint / visually different from other basic chapters

DA, BA, and SW are too different for a wider use box

Ravenguard and IH look too similar, IF and WS suck to paint for new players, Salamanders look too similar to DA, leaving UM as a good option for new people

[barren echo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLDhltHSsG0

New video, box set for 11th will be called Armageddon.

Marines will get at least:

• New Interecessors (same loadout as before)
• Vanguard Vets
• Jump Chaplain

Orks will get at least:

• New Boyz
• 'Uge Kannon of sorts

[barren echo]

Also going through this thread, that skitarii rumor absolutely ended up being the ones for HH right. their bayonets counting as the "melee" part.

[barren echo]

this was the old rumor for this box's marine side btw.

[scenic palm]

I'm a goddamn prophet

[sharp hill]

Orks taking Armageddon this time

[atomic panther]

They will. But then the Imperium will take it back. So that Chaos can evade again later.

[midnight elbow]

New intercessors definitelyean an end to the kit being a bit source for scopes and mags

[worthy furnace]

I thought they already got new boys

But people didn't like how limited they were so they kept the older kit around as well

[unkempt grove]

GW might want to have just one kit for boys that works for everyone. Saves production space

[scenic palm]

They're fucking push fit

You can't even change the heads

[jovial spindle]

So just redoing the basic intercessors instead of just updating tacticals like they did other units for 10e?

Like literally the same loadout but new models?

[robust drum]

that would be really nice AdMech needs more melee units 😅

[robust drum]

ah, damn. just saw this. yeah, the 30k skittles is probably what that rumor was about

[barren echo]

i don't sub to valrak so i dunno what vid this is from

" Reiterated the inclusion of new Ork Boyz, referring to them for the first time (I think?) specifically as Goffs. Also a Runtherd and Gretchin, and finally a Wartrak, which he referenced with a GorkaMorka-era model. "

[scenic palm]

Box art Orks are usually goffs

[craggy zenith]

Its his latest vid but its just the clan they are painted as, not specific Goff minis

[sharp hill]

Also something with a really big gun. That varies between being a walker or some artillery piece

[dawn oriole]

Gonna pull a saturnine and drop the Arorknae quad-accelerator

[barren echo]

more from valrak, I'm not sure if this is meant to be for the starter box or just in general

Characters:

• warboss
• pain boy
• weird boy
• big boss nob
• nob with waaagh banner

Units:

• boyz (20) - notes they will be monopose even if they have options
• grots
• wartrakk
• gun emplacement walker thingy

[unkempt grove]

That would fit the general pattern of box contents. Especially a horde army. 3-5 HQs, good amount of your chaff infantry, and then a few big toys

[silk merlin]

Pretty sure it's the starter box we know there is some other stuff later like new Stormboyz

[main pagoda]

If Leviathan is any indication it'll be one strange unit mix.

[red relic]

sigh looks like I'm buying 3 starters for a game I don't play again

[sharp hill]

He said the starter box was this. To me it feels like it is missing something to match the Space Marine side. As the walker is being described as Deff Dread sized

[red relic]

Well it is tradition, look at how hopelessly outmatched Orks were in Black Reach. Naked boyz and 3 kopters vs a dread and terminators lol.

[glad ferry]

Ork model was leaked and a warcom damage control article posted

[loud flicker]

I'll always find it funny when the 2.0 leaked images appeared, GW was radio silent but any other leak and they run around like headless chickens. They really don't need to acknowledge them IMO.

[kind kayak]

I think that was more to do with how far back it leaked, a year leak out for a big selling box would've dragged down hype compared to an Ork model releasing in a few months getting leaked

[red relic]

video confirms this list i'd say. especially the "gun emplacement walker thingy"

[real ocean]

Anyone got a screenshot of the walker thingy from the video?

[next elbow]

one picture from above, then two more up close

[next elbow]

and another from above

[midnight elbow]

Gorilla mech?

[karmic copper]

Chicken with a Gun strapped on top

[loud flicker]

If it could be a vechicle option for a wierdboy that would be neat.

[flat trout]

I think the new Intercessors are gonna have more weapons.

Also, a new land speeder was shown off

[summer anchor]

Return to Tactical Marines

[unkempt grove]

There’s been rumors going both ways

All we’ve seen officially is an Intercessor in modified Mk X armor and a bolt rifle, which doesn’t tell us much on which rumor is true

[atomic panther]

tbh it would makes sense to give them more options for their 1-in-5 special weapon than just that mediocre underslung grenade launcher

[next elbow]

Is it just me or is this box set just... not all that exciting?

[unkempt grove]

Too early to say imo

[empty rapids]

i mean from the trailer the marine half looks very bland

but as fil said we havent seen everything

[unkempt grove]

And if the rumors are true, then honestly the marine side isn’t that different from Indomitus (which was a very popular box).

Both have some basic troops, an elite unit (they’re both even melee), and some HQs

[empty rapids]

yeah however trailer showed that the jump pack elite really dont look any different than basic jump pack assaults so im hoping the actual models are better

[cold snow]

12th edition cover will be black templars

[jovial spindle]

It would be funny if intercessors just become the brand new tacticals. I wouldn't mind.

Gives me an excuse to run my tacticals as the new intercessors.

[craggy zenith]

You could literally box up horse poop with a space marine on the box and make huge sales

[trail oasis]

I’m choosing to believe those leaks

I’d LOVE if I could give my intercessiors a melta or whatever

[rain harness]

best you can get is a disintigrator that WILL kill the wielder

[trail oasis]

I would be SHOCKED if we ever saw widespread disintegration use in 40K

[unkempt grove]

They never lost the tech to make them to be fair. Things just need to get bad enough that people will be willing to use them

[barren echo]

i would bet we get 1 in 5 gets grenade launcher, 1 in 5 gets "special weapon" which is just a single profile.

[placid hull]

The screen cap is a goodun

[barren echo]

it's weird that they're doing another shield captain

[silk merlin]

I think the one you are thinking of is a lieutenant

[barren echo]

the captain in the trailer/leak

this mini is not very old so it's weird to have another starter box with one lol.

[silk merlin]

Isn't the one that has a model already a lieutenant not a captain?

[barren echo]

lt's don't get iron halos

[silk merlin]

I think GW doesn't want a Stormcast situation so is making more repeat models to not over bloat the range

[barren echo]

the 9th edition box had a captain+lt+ancient with shields

oh, maybe they do get them when they've got the shields. neat. still, this is the lt model with shield.

and of course the bladeguard ancient DOESN'T get a shield, but does still get the invuln. i give up lmao.

[empty rapids]

By my count theres only 3 new units?

[dry laurel]

Think so.

Though the JP Chaplain might have been in Legends Hell.

[barren echo]

nope, they stopped selling a generic one but the blood angels one kept the rules alive.

[atomic panther]

There are rules for a jump pack Chaplain in the codex, but there isn't a Primaris model for him yet.

So a new mini would fill an obvious hole in the roster.

[trail oasis]

Lowkey may be the worst primaris character ever lmao

[jovial spindle]

Its a bit redundant to be honest. Especially since we got regular acnients twice now.

[empty rapids]

well we getting a lot of redundancy next lsm wave it seems

[craggy zenith]

Its Space marines, redundancy is their watchword 😄

[loud flicker]

So many sidegrades, where to start lol.

[next elbow]

It's a tough situation. GW know that space marines sell, so they keep making space marines. But instead of correcting some of the things that make intercessors and the other 1st wave primaris stuff boring, they just leaned into it and tried to sprinkle in a little nostalgia instead.

I think the new intercessors don't look bad, but they're not the mega-exciting-amazing thing that you'd expect to see out the gate of the new edition.

The jump pack chaplain looks like every other chaplain we've gotten so far, the look of the vanguard vets and the land speeder don't look revolutionary, and the wildest thing we saw was the weird boy which we should have gotten years ago.

So, a lot of 11th edition's initial release is going to be a lot of "Ok cool, you finally did the bare minimum GW, now can we move on to more interesting things?"

11th edition is GW's chance to finally make good on a few key things throughout the next 3 years:
-Grey Knights update
-Drukhari update
-Chaos Daemons???

But, I have so little faith in GW because they keep tripping right before the finish line that I wouldn't be surprised if all we get is...
-Kaldor Draigo dies off screen and we get a plastic GK Librarian
-Plastic Haemonculus and nothing else
-Chaos Daemons just keep using their Index ad infinitum

Meanwhile
-Massive plastic update for Space Wolves
-Even more plastic for Blood Angels
-Even MORE plastic for Dark Angels

[craggy zenith]

Halfway there, they need to keep releasing marines to keep money flowing and whinging down. But they cant be too similar or fans will lose their shit, and they cant be too new or original or fans will lose their shit.

Impact of this on sales unknown 😛

[next elbow]

lol yep. Ultimately, I think the launch box will sell out, because the deal will be too good, it'll have tons of minis, and it'll be the first taste of 40k 11th.

And that's almost the unfortunate thing. You'd hope that GW would learn a lesson by not being able to sell as many because interest has waned, but the fact of the matter is that the community has grown, most people aren't in these online communities, and at the end of the day the perceived value will still be high

[rain harness]

did the last one sell out?

[next elbow]

the launch box? Yeah.

GW product is kind of interesting. Leviathan was the previous launch box, with all those new tyranids and space marines.

In terms of GW's own pipeline between their webstore and physical stores, they sold out pretty well. You might find one or two here or there, but overall very well.

then you'll have the mom and pop stores that will buy 20 of them, sell 10 on release, then sell the rest over the next 6-12 months

And once in a while you'll have that absolute madlad that buys 100 of the box, sells 10 on release, and then somehow still has 50 leftover a year later and then complains that GW didn't help him sell them well enough

[silk merlin]

The probably saw what happened with Stormcast and want to slow down on new kits so it doesn't get to overbloated so instead are redoing some of the very first PrimarisMarines

[next elbow]

Oh totally. I mean, the primaris range is already hugely bloated. They gotta pump the brakes hard if they want to keep the entire range relevant

[silk merlin]

Hense why we got more Chapter specific Marines

[next elbow]

Yup.

[silk merlin]

GW had a lot of ranges to redo, some factions were gonna be last so I mean I dont think they have been doing a bad job, seeing as basically every other Xenos faction has gotten some kind of big range refresh/update

[unkempt grove]

I would point out that leading up to 11e's reveal we saw a lot of requests and excitement for remakes of existing firstborn units.

Then we get those remakes in primaris scale, and now people are saying that the box is boring for doing what people have been requesting for years.

Of course that's likely because the people saying those things are two different groups of people, but it does explain why GW is doing what they're doing

[silk merlin]

Everyone wanted this until we got it and now everyone hates it lol, "old Marine helmets are way better and more iconic" --> "Primaris Marine helmets are so much better old helmets look terrible"

[unkempt grove]

The joys of a large online community

[next elbow]

well, "Everyone" is misleading.
What you have is different groups of people of opposing opinions that get loud when things don't go their way

And a situation where it's impossible to make everyone happy

[next elbow]

This is true. Seeing the big Kroot refresh, Aeldari finally getting all of their aspect warriors, Votann coming out and getting expanded upon, and we finally got World Eaters and Emperor's Children as factions

It's easy to forget about those when GW puts so much advertising and effort into space marines

[silk merlin]

If we are doing 9th as Well then we also have Necrons and Nids full ranges and Aeldaris range in general mostly updated

Guard also got a ton

[next elbow]

yah

[unkempt grove]

Guard's gotten like 3 major updates in two editions

[next elbow]

I think what you have is a situation where those that -don't- get an update now look sharply ignored by simple contrast

[unkempt grove]

For a non-marine army, that is truly impressive

Oh and confirmation that a 4th major update will be happening in 2 or so years

[next elbow]

outside of space marines, guard is the next most popular 40k faction iirc

[unkempt grove]

Someone's gotta pull the short straw unfortunately

[silk merlin]

Eh that might just be a single unit or so

[unkempt grove]

True, but that's still more than the standard one new HQ model to go with your codex

[silk merlin]

Like how we got Attilans as just the one unit

[unkempt grove]

But overall, at this point what's left that needs an actual update?

Drukhari obviously
Grey Knights obviously
Custodes now need one since the new 30k release has revealed their new model scale/proportions (and GW likes to keep that consistent across systems). Still a lower priority than the previous two
GSC havent gotten an update, but they're holding up well as they are
Non-auxiliary Tau havent gotten an update either, but theyre also holding up well
And the last one is daemons, who exist in a weird state of limbo where each month could spell the end of them as a faction, so theyre probably the last priority for an update

So in terms of need, we have like 2, maybe 3, factions.

[silk merlin]

Ya

[next elbow]

Weirdly, the closest comparison to Chaos Daemons is actually Sisters of Battle. They were relegated to digital pdfs for several editions before they finally got a massive plastic refresh

[unkempt grove]

Despite the complaints about faction update priority, GW is actually doing pretty good. If they keep this rate up and dont suddenly change priorities, every faction should hoepfully get their updates by the end of 11th

[silk merlin]

Ya but there is also that they might just get folded in with the God legions so who knows

[silk merlin]

Anyone who still says GW hates Xenos factions at this point is just willfully ignorant

[next elbow]

This is a fantastic perspective and really important to keep in mind

However, fans of those last factions have been hearing "Don't worry, you'll get updated next edition" for like 5 straight editions

which is why there's still a lot of bitterness in the community

[unkempt grove]

Ya it makes sense, but at least we're reaching the end of the tunnel

[placid hull]

i wonder what folk will complain about next

hopefully we won't have to wait long to find out

[unkempt grove]

Look at all of the factions that have gotten updates since 8e, then take the first xenos faction that got its update. Begin complaining about how its been X amount of years since their last update (So probably Necrons)

Alternatively, complain about whatever has happened to daemons

[placid hull]

Smh can't even find new things to complain about

[unkempt grove]

Warhammer players love resurrecting and rehashing complaints, just like how they never let memes die

[next elbow]

lmao
I just want to know what GW's plan is with the Chaos Daemons. It's not a complaint, just a bit of headscratching.

[placid hull]

it felt like they wanted to roll them into god marked legions but stopped like halfway through as if to reconsider

[next elbow]

To me it seems like their plan is to take most of the current daemons and make them AoS only, then redesign new universal 40k daemons, potentially with multi-use in horus heresy as Ruinstorm Daemons

[silk merlin]

Yes but they were gonna do it the worst possible way like DW going into Agents so the new lead pumped the breaks

11th will likely do it but fully and properly

[placid hull]

I'm shocked they haven't killed them off yet honestly

[unkempt grove]

I got the impression that (after the index pdf) the plan is to test the waters with 10th, and see if they can ease daemons into the cult legion codexes eventually like they are in AoS.

[placid hull]

Daemons have been a weird thing for several editions now

[unkempt grove]

And then have the non-god specific stuff like belakor get moved into CSM most likely

[next elbow]

GW don't want to get rid of anything that could potentially be a shrinkage of their IP

god i'd personally hate it if all that kind of stuff got crammed into Chaos Marines. IMO, Chaos Marines need to focus on being Chaos Marines, and not just 'Chaos Smorgasbord'

[silk merlin]

Both updated models and cross compatible with HH? Those are some big dreams lol

[next elbow]

I know, but GW could earn some serious brownie points for doing it, like they are doing with 30k Custodes

[silk merlin]

The cultists and stuff are what make Chaos different from Loyalist Marines

The armies are kinda built around it

[next elbow]

Sure, but if you keep adding more stuff to Chaos Marines, they'll have a huge bloat problem, as well as a lot of just... mixed BS. Beastmen, Cultists, Traitor Guard, how many different kinds of 'cannon fodder' do we really need?

I'd rather see Renegades and Heretics come back, and have all those extra things live there, like Imperial Agents but for chaos

[silk merlin]

They are just single units it's not that many, not enough to be its own faction even really

[next elbow]

I mean, let's be real, is Imperial Agents its own faction?

[silk merlin]

No, and Agents is absolutely not something to aspire for lol

[next elbow]

No, but both a Chaos Agents and Imperial Agents have potential to be really good, if the right kind of shuffling is done.

IMO, to fill them out, here's what you could do:

Imperial Agents: Put Tempestus Scions and Taurox in here, to give them an actual core/elite troop and vehicle

Chaos Agents: Dark Commune, Cultists, Accursed Cultists, Traitor Guard, Beastmen, Chaos Spawn, Traitor Enforcer, Vashtorr, Cypher, Cultist Firebrand could all live there, along with any Dark Mech GW decide to make

Will it require GW to make datasheets that exist in multiple codexes, which is something they hate doing? Yes. But in this digital age, that shouldn't be as big of a problem as it was in the past

[silk merlin]

GW already gave those different datasheets everyone already has Chaos Spawn why would we take away everyone's unique spawn just to have to ally them back in?

[next elbow]

Have things like Chaos Spawn, Forgefiends, Venomcrawlers, and a few other things exist in multiple books like they already do

Give the traitor guard an option to take a chimera. Have the taurox in both imperial agents and astra militarum

[silk merlin]

You can just want Traitor Guard we don't need to make some messed up weird ally system to take away and add back in people's stuff

Plus most cultists and stuff are directly under the Marines it's not like Agents where they are different forces working together

[next elbow]

Yeah, this is all just how I'd do it, mostly because I want Chaos Marines to have more Chaos Marines updated in it

lucky for everyone, I don't work for GW 😛

though if I did, I'd definitely have updated chaos bikers by now

[silk merlin]

They have plenty? And gotten plenty, Bikers are like the only kit that is really old, and Termi HQ kind of

They JUST got updated Warp Talons/Raptors and Mutilators

[next elbow]

Indeed, eating well here at the end of the edition

I'm mostly griping because I've been waiting for some of these things to be updated since 4th edition.

I'm still waiting on getting a new rhino kit. The chaos upgrade sprue for vehicles is from 2nd edition and GW have been incredibly reticent to update the rhino chassis or give us any chaos tanks

and now, on top of everything, we're seeing the red corsairs reavers and emperor's children tormentors are slightly scaled up compared to legionaries

For the longest time it seems like whenver GW decide to do something with scale or design, they never actually catch chaos marines up with those choices. They do a lot of half-measures and little updates here and there. A LOT of things have been fixed. We finally got new raptors, jump pack lord, mutilators and defiler... but we're still waiting on the bikers, terminator lords, obliterators are stuck with the venomcrawler, our chaos terminators are smaller scale and the mix of weapons they have is atrocious...

[loud flicker]

If GW had any sense, the CSM units should be all taken out of the current codex, add demons, call it lost and the dammed, have a small fore org that has a few CSM unit options to take then have an actual CSM codex. Then have a small detachment in the CSM codex that lets you mix in lost and the damned codex units.

[next elbow]

yeah that's kinda the same avenue of thought that I have just going the other way around

[silk merlin]

Chaos legions just have cultists, like they are around everywhere all the time, they are not some independent force they bring in

Traitor Guard guys sure, but the others are all over Chaos Legion ships or small forces in random Space hulks or something

[loud flicker]

You know chaos cultists can also exist independently and in secret on imperial held worlds right? Their existence doesn't hinge on a legion's apron strings. An ordo malleus inquisitor main job is finding these cultists in most of their duties, its not all GK and greater demons etc. An independent lost and the damned force with some CSM support would be very good. CSM should be the star of a CSM codex. The current CSM codex is a lost and the damned codex in all but name rn.

[silk merlin]

Yes but separating them from CSM and making them ally them back in is so weird

[silk merlin]

There are 7 "Damned" units in CSM, they have 50+ datasheets

[loud flicker]

Not really, thats how it used to be. There has been a lost and the damned codex before, it was one of the slim ones but it worked like that ally in/ alt force org etc.

[loud flicker]

Funny you say that, every IRL list I see has barely any CSM units its all mortals with chaos knights.

So latd

[silk merlin]

IDK where you see that, no one is really allying Chaos Knights right now

There is a popular cultist detachment sure

[loud flicker]

Well, I guess the ones taking chaos knights are the ones who liked imperial armour units then.

[silk merlin]

Most lists are Daemon Engines, Huron and Friends, Raptors are really good right now, Legionaries, a Rhino or 2, and like 1 unit of cultists to stand on the home objective and protect the back

[loud flicker]

Having a seperate lost and the damed book would free up space in an actual CSM codex for potentially new CSM units since its going to be less bloated as a result.

[silk merlin]

Its 7 units they dont take up much space lol

[loud flicker]

7 units and all the demons that look to be homeless with no dedicated dex on the horizion. Putting them in the god marked dex's would be a mistake IMO.

[silk merlin]

I think Lost and the Damned is cool, I just think you dont need to take units out of CSM to do it, maybe take out the Traitor Guard and Enforcer

[silk merlin]

Why? The god legions very much want them and most Daemon players prefer one god

[loud flicker]

A latd book would make it easier for everyone to take allied demons + mortals for CSM etc. Its cleaner that way.

[silk merlin]

Why should we need to ally the Daemons for the god legions thats kind of the whole thing they want to remove

And CSM can already ally in the Troops (and Noise Marines) from the 4 legions so you could just mix that in with allying Daemons

[loud flicker]

I don't want to buy x4 codexes to ally with my CSM for demons when I can just buy one book and get everything via a latd codex.

[silk merlin]

You shouldnt need to buy any thats why Agents suck and IDK why people want that for Chaos lol

[loud flicker]

CSM players have already had a latd codex and liked it. It combined with mortals and demons would be great. Its how it was back when and was fine. Agents fell off because GW made these factions seperate, then combined. Chaos was started as combined, the drama is they are too seperate actually, for older/ OG CSM players.

[silk merlin]

Do we need to rip units out of other factions to have lotD back? I feel like CSM can and should just have cultists and LotD can be an army

[loud flicker]

For sure, that way they can be allies or a seperate independant army. I think they dilute CSM codex's along with other mortal troops and demons.

[silk merlin]

Factions like IW and WB famously use cultist chaff heavily

[loud flicker]

One aspect, not the whole thing.

[silk merlin]

Daemons arent in CSMs codex, there are only 7 non Marine units and only like 3 of them see regular use

Cultists, Accursed Cultists, and Dark Commune actually get played regularly

[loud flicker]

I know that. I am just saying a latd codex with mortal troops and demons would work, because the OG latd was a slim dex, so combining it with demons codex would make it better. Then it can be a pillar of the big x4 CSM dex's and an undivided one. It would clean up the 40k Chaos factions neatly.

[silk merlin]

I dont see how its weird to have Mortals in with Marines but its cool to have Mortals and Daemons together

[loud flicker]

I think you are over-complicating it. The idea with the proposed latd book I have is a step below how HH does its books.

[silk merlin]

And as allies they will see far less use, only reason the God legions are finally able to play Daemon lists is because GW actually made a dedicated rules for them and gave them datasheets in the Legions codexs, even if they had a Codex you wouldnt need to buy it since they give you ally sheets

[silk merlin]

HH has a whole different system for allies and detachments

GW has actively be adding allies back in a way that makes them work better and not need an extra book to play, something like Agents would be a step back

[loud flicker]

I know. I am just saying how to consolidate the content. But GW seems intent on a chaotic mix of consolidation and seperation. So, I guess IW are getting a slim dex or whatever. If GW do something sensible I will buy a lotto ticket or update my life insurance or something.

[silk merlin]

The new ally system is way better you get a full datasheet for your allies that can be modified and balanced separately without hurting the main factions as well as not needing an extra book to play

Also IW are not getting a codex that was Boole being weird and not knowing how 40K works

Unlikely they even get a supplement next edition

[loud flicker]

Well, BL had the slim dex not that long ago. I won't rule anything out.

Also RG, IF, sallies etc.

Who knows.

[flat trout]

We don't know everything in it yet.

[flat trout]

It's just an alternate sculpt

We have two terminator captains that came out in the same edition

Literally like 3 months apart

One is just exclusive to the box set

Ergo, same here

[empty rapids]

Tyranids just have their boxset ones

[flat trout]

Marine favoritism is not new

[empty rapids]

it could be less.

[flat trout]

What could be less?

[empty rapids]

the favoritism.

[flat trout]

Well yes. It could be lesser, but it won't be 🤷‍♀️

[barren echo]

one is starter box, the other is multipart. this would be two starter box shield captains.

[flat trout]

Well, yes. However, there is the important point that the Indomitus captain is on its own sprue, this guy might not.

Either way, one is in a box set, the other is gonna be the mainstay release

[barren echo]

they're both box set

[flat trout]

One will stay in the box set

[next elbow]

Alleged 11th ed rules leaks from a mystery discord

[unkempt grove]

Then TO determines

Only if you're boring

[loud flicker]

This is already needlessly complicated. Give me a table I can roll d6 on for missions if we want some randomness.

[next elbow]

that's basically what you do.
In army-building you'll already know what detachment you have and therefore what objective you're gunning for.
Your opponent will know theirs.
You compare A and B and roll on C table.

[loud flicker]

Makes sense, the TO picking the "layout" threw me I guess.

[next elbow]

that's specifically for tournaments. Remember, this is GW trying to inject more narrative into the game which will be... interesting to see how both the hardcore narrative crowd and the hardcore competitive crowd see this.

Up until now the two game systems have been so separate and that's created some pretty toxic cultures on both sides.

[loud flicker]

So- if comp players don't like the change, won't the ITC (?) tourny guys just make their own missions pack again like before in I think 8th ?So we end up back where we started potentially.

[next elbow]

very likely.
why GW cater to the competitive crowd when the competitive crowd is just going to do what they want anyway is beyond me

GW could put all this effort into making objectives into different shapes, trying to inject narrative stuff into it, only for ITC to go "That's dumb, we're still using circles and L-shape terrain"

but, GW could also give ITC reason to push the new rules, so who knows

[silk merlin]

Because GW didnt do much back then now they are both actually involved with comp and not letting other groups deal with it

Before people basically had to deal with it themselves now GW actuall does stuff and people have favored them more than whatever the hell WTC wants people to do

[kind kayak]

I'm guessing no changes to war gear?

[trail oasis]

Probably would have said something if so

[silk merlin]

Armies and detachments:
Detachment pairing, was only covered for a short time, but essentially the big detachments that affect your whole army like Gladius or the ones that we have now are going to be three point attachments. Then there will be one and two point attachments that are much more narrow on what type of units get benefits from them that you can then start to pair up.
Most of the ones that we have now that affect the whole army will be standalone, only really the customizable ones along with a couple two point core ones could be paired up
Missions:
Each match up will have its own layout dependent on the mission which is dependent on the disposition of both players armies pairing together.
Your opponent doesn’t choose anything, It’s the combination of your disposition and your opponents disposition that then decides what mission you’re gonna play And then the TO picks either A, B or C for layouts on that round and you’ll play that layout for that mission based on the paired disposition

Secondaries:
There are no faction specific secondaries, there are going to be secondary that we all have access to, and then they’re gonna be primaries that we also all have access to, but it depends on the disposition that you choose.
Another fun part, was that you can start to build a hand of secondaries. Instead of having to turn one in to get another, you can start to have three or four

Terrain:
The footprints are going to be out within a week from now with all of the information about how terrain footprint will interact. They did say that a lot of the old terrain will still be usable, however, there is new footprints that are 10 by 2 And some that are small triangles And there’s gonna be new footprints that those else we have just simply won’t fit on.
They said they are going to describe what holes and what other things do on terrain. The stealth and that invisible thing is going to also interact between multiple pieces of terrain. And there’s gonna be a little bit more in depth, terrain rules that you can then choose to put on top of the footprints.

For those of you that have WTC boards, apparently this game is gonna be very hard to be played any other way than their way, and WTC will likely be switching over to their team format that they are also going to release with the help of other organizers.

L’s and walls are still gonna be a thing, because when you touch the terrain you’re still gonna be able to be seen just like we have now, so a lot of the fatter bases will still use L’s.

Everybody will need more bases because the train will be more dense because at least 5 to 6 terrain pieces will also be object objectives that can be held by normal OC within it or touching it just like now.

Your terrain collection is fine what you’re gonna need to focus on are the footprints So what that means for all of us is new bases and then inevitably leads to needing other types of terrain bits to put on those new sized bases.

Narrative:
GW wants there to be a story involved in every game. We’re not only narrative games get to have a little bit more interactive pieces but so do the competitive ones.

Closing:
They wanted to end off with the fact that while all of this may seem scary, it’s just a paradigm shift. They have a larger team of more experience, people and players, and they think that all of this will actually be able to help them balance the game more than they do right now. Right now all they can really do is nerf units or points, this will allow them to alter other things which can make for a better game. It also creates some variability, which is what they’re actually looking to increase rather than decrease. He noted the fact that there is 45 different possible missions that you can play a few times

[next elbow]

where's all this from?

[silk merlin]

Big virtual meeting GW had with people who run events

[next elbow]

ahhhh

[silk merlin]

its been confirmed by a ton of people

[next elbow]

I just don't get how they're 'injecting narrative' when all it seems like they're doing is pushing people to use slightly different terrain

[silk merlin]

Stuff like how the mission is a bit more in your control so if you play WE you can always have a mission thats more killy and thematic rather than sit and do actions

[next elbow]

I get that that's what they're saying, but I worry that it's going to boil down to how it boils already:

People are going to figure out the detachments that give you the disposition that gives you the best chance of getting the ideal mission with the most benefit to you and the least to your opponent

And after all that boiling down, only one or two dispositions are going to matter and so people will often play the same 3 missions 😛

because that's what happens when you cater to the competitive crowd

[silk merlin]

Well its based on both players

So you need to be ready for like 15 missions? assuming you only play the one disposition

More than we have now

[next elbow]

Sure, but if you, as a space marine player, have determined that the best disposition is the one that lets you get points for killing things...

And a lot of other space marine players come to the same conclusion...

Then you have "kill things" vs "kill things" more often than not, which boils down to A B or C layout

[silk merlin]

Then its an even match, and the people not doing that can pick a disposition that forces them into different ones

Since both players have control you have counterplay and can force them to play different ones

[next elbow]

What I'm saying is that that's the ideal. That's what they're going for... on paper.

My concern is that once the playerbase has these rules in hand, there's going to be a dozen videos that come out day 1 about the 'best disposition' and all the netlisting will begin.

And then all of GW's plans and good intentions will boil down to several dispositions being deemed 'useless' by the community and all those 45 extra missions will ultimately mean that maybe 10 of them get played

[silk merlin]

You literally cant stop that so it doesnt matter

[silk merlin]

GW also talked about how this is something they can easily tweak to balance the game without touching armies as much

[next elbow]

sure but if you can't stop it, then why is GW putting so much effort into it?

the competitive group is going to do what they want regardless of what GW do, so IMO their time would be better spent making a narrative system that actually works

instead of trying to 'meet in the middle' with the competitive crowd. that's all I'm saying.

[silk merlin]

A lot of players are in the middle

Plenty of comp players have talked about wanting more interesting boards and terrain, and narrative is better when balanced since it means more people can just bring what they want and have a good chance

[unkempt grove]

Personally it's also not a bad idea to try to narrow the divide between comp and casual. There's a lot of us vs them in the community right now, which is generally not a good thing.

Not saying this is going to be the silver bullet that fixes it all, but any little bit can help

[silk merlin]

They are trying to really appeal to that undefined middle area, people who go in the store for a pick up game

[next elbow]

yeah, I definitely get that.

I guess my worry is that they're trying to pull narrative players into competitive, not the other way around, and that's... gunna be rough

[silk merlin]

Use comp rules because its easiest and more balanced by not looking to go a event so would like a bit more flavor

[next elbow]

but we won't really know till the full rules come out

i mean, ultimately I'm in this server because 30k has won me over hardcore over 40k

[silk merlin]

I dont see how they can or would do that, everything looks to be the other way

[next elbow]

At first glance, sure.

but I guess I'm just pessimistic on this count. We get this new mission system... at what cost? No more Crusade? Narrative supplements now have competitive missions?

[unkempt grove]

I mean if the competitive missions are fun, then is it a problem if you use them in casual or narrative games?

[silk merlin]

Well they already said all narrative stuff is valid in 11th and also narrative and comp already have their own diffrent expansion things

[unkempt grove]

And crusade was more than just your mission rules. I doubt theyre going to axe all the other parts of crusade just because theyre trying to narrow the gap between comp and casual. Just like how they wont axe the tournament packet rules in order to narrow the gap

[silk merlin]

GW just made a custom character maker which should be expanded in 11th but stay narrative only like AoSs

[next elbow]

the major issue of competitive 40k, and I suspect the great reason we are seeing these changes, is because competitive has gotten stale and looks ridiculous.

like... I understand trying to 'mend the divide' but on the flip side I'd rather we got weirder asymmetrical missions for narrative, rather than shoehorning that sort of concept into competitive.

[silk merlin]

GW did make asymmetrical missions already

[next elbow]

my favorite battle reports are from Winters SEO, where they often skip a lot of the secondary card stuff and focuses on just making a fun game that has a little story and usually some moral objectives

[unkempt grove]

When I see pictures like this, I want to say things that would break the server rules Im supposed to enforce...

[silk merlin]

Which is what they are trying to add in more of?

[unkempt grove]

But more seriously, I dont think that trying to narrow the gap is mutually exclusive with doing fun narrative stuff (or unfun competitive stuff)

[silk merlin]

And "Comp" is really just the pick up and play now which is what more people do

[next elbow]

this is warmachine. GW's new terrain shapes remind me of this. different cutout shapes with an image printed on it.

[silk merlin]

So if that middle area is more narrative whats the issue

[next elbow]

The issue is that, in my view, what they're doing is not making competitive more narrative, they're making narrative more competitive.

[silk merlin]

Thats the footprint not the terrain, you are still supposed to have stuff on it

[silk merlin]

How, they havent said anything in that area

They have only added more narrative features not removed any

[next elbow]

this is my worry, this is what I'm reading between the lines. I could be completely wrong, but I'm going to have this worry until I see definitive writing otherwise.

I know y'all are seeing it the other way around and I'm not trying to convince you at this point. I'm just expressing that this stuff could just as easily be frosting on a turd cake.

[silk merlin]

See what? idk what you want them to say they already said all of the narrative campaign books and stuff are valid in 11th and have added more recently

[next elbow]

I want to see the full mission rules, rather than the advertising they're using to sell the new edition

[unkempt grove]

Wont be seeing that for a long while lol

[next elbow]

yarp

[silk merlin]

Actually the thing talked about them maybe being out in a week

We will actually see the some of the missions tomorrow it said on todays article

[unkempt grove]

I would also point out that while we can go on and on about how GW is trying to do things differently and in what way they are doing those things, but at the end of the day how GW does things does not have to change how you do things. GW does not have 24/7 surveillance over you, ready to assassinate you if you dare deviate from their holy canon mission books. If the main mission rules are too comp for your narrative games, then you can always convince your group to try to do things differently.

Of course your mileage may vary depending on your access to a regular game group, but for most people I would bet that having friends willing to communicate is a manageable obstacle

[next elbow]

lol tru

[silk merlin]

And the GW meeting thing they mentioned new layouts should be shown in a week so people can start getting ready making their own

[unkempt grove]

Also I would argue that if you are playing narrative games, then the odds are good that you're playing with a group who is willing to deviate from GW's stuff

[silk merlin]

Also this is all default game stuff so competitive, narrative always had its books and expansions

[next elbow]

Personally I am glad that they are trying to do more narrative stuff instead of continuing down the same failed path that Warmachine went. I've been around a long time, I've seen the hobby go from really crazy tables of hobby terrain made from people's garages to the L-shaped meme that 40k is in the public eye

I stopped playing 40k a while ago because the mission system and the endless re-rolls just don't appeal to me

[silk merlin]

Thats mostly WTC who GW basically told to fuck off finally

They are the ones who do only Ls

[unkempt grove]

Side note, what does WTC stand for?

[next elbow]

thank goodness GW are taking a standa gainst that

[silk merlin]

World Teams Championship I think?

They basically were the only ones doing stuff pre 9th when GW finally started doing comp stuff and game balance

[next elbow]

I'm sure the communities are great, but when I started seeing sports jerseys representing warhammer tournament teams, something in my soul cried out in cringe

[unkempt grove]

I can accept sports jeresy for factions, but for warhammer tournament teams... ya no that just feels off to me

[silk merlin]

See thats on you because those people have some of the most fun

[next elbow]

It's just kind of hard to express how easy it is to put my own narrative spin over 30k's missions and 30k's list building system compared to 40k

[next elbow]

I'm sure they do. no doubt they have a blast crunching numbers and being bros and caring a whole lot about K/D ratios

not my scene

[silk merlin]

We had a team this year called the macho men who all jerseys and outfits based Macho Man Randy Savage

Also at these things most people are drinking beer, and when one Ork player Waghs they all do

[unkempt grove]

That I can get behind. It's jeresys to rep someone else's team that seems weird to me

[next elbow]

kinda like how different people like different music. I'm just not a fan of that tune. Nothing wrong with it, they do what they want, but when you have an entire convention center full of that type, hoooooo boy do I not want to be there.

[silk merlin]

I really only see people wearing jerseys for the team they are on, they are custom made so they cant really just sell them to anyone

[unkempt grove]

Fair enough.

[next elbow]

There's a group here in San Antonio called the 'Sons of Slambo', an AoS group. Great bunch of guys. When one guy yells 'Slambo' when something happens at a table, EVERYONE yells Slambo, whether it's at a game store or a tournament

[silk merlin]

I think you are assuming what "that type" is that type of person is usually some jerk who cant actually compete well and just bullies new players at locals

[next elbow]

I got overstimulated 😛

[next elbow]

Maybe? I know that a lot of tourney players are good guys, but I also don't want those players having as much sway as they do when it comes to how the game is played. GW has put a lot of effort drawing on tourney veteran input to make the game where it is now, and that's been part of my issue with the group.

[silk merlin]

FOr game balance sure, but a balanced game can be better for narrative

Since you can have a more equal fair game with whatever you want to bring

HH last edition a narrative IW list I wanted to make would be toxic as hell or useless because one artillery was busted and the others were turbo ass

[next elbow]

Yeah, that's always the goal. Again, we'll see how it actually pans out. There's a huge tendency in the 40k community for unbalanced options to sink or float to the bottom or top of people's rosters in competitive or casual play.

In 30k, the major difference is that the larger community understands the narrative goal from the get-go

In 40k though, a lot of the community gets indoctrinated by competitive ideals

[unkempt grove]

To be fair, that's not an issue that GW can really solve

That's a community mentality issue

All GW can really do is try to make the game as balanced as they can to mitigate the negatives of that mentality

[silk merlin]

Both can exist, I dont see Comp players have any issues with narrative players or what they are up to, put I see narrative players saying they think Comp players are "playing the game wrong and dont know how to have fun correct"

[next elbow]

lmao, true on both fronts

[silk merlin]

Meanwhile GWs big events also have the grand narratives so you cant say GW doesnt care about that stuff

[next elbow]

Maybe I'm just hyperfixated on it

[unkempt grove]

The multiple narrative crusade books also support that

[silk merlin]

Seriously what I mean, we get 3 tournament packs an edition but tons more narrative expansions, dedicated narrative events and rules all the time, but people ignore all of that and get mad at comp players just having fun in a different way

I am looking in the Comp LoV channel and TSons channel and i can tell you I see way more people excited about all these changes adding terrain diversity and more thematic elements

[next elbow]

From my perspective, we got to where we are because of GW's endeavor to get back into tournaments and taking input from tournament players.

I believe it was Arbiter Ian in his last adepticon video where he talks about there being a survey that GW did that shows that the competitive players are like a single digit percentage of people that buy the product.

So now we see an about-face. Time will tell if the community adopts it, but there's a lot of public sway that the competitive community have, because so much youtube and social media focus is on competitive meta.

[unkempt grove]

I mean both of those factions are weird so I'm not sure I'd trust their feedback

[silk merlin]

Well there isnt a narrative "meta"

Its not like you can make that kind of content for non competative games

[next elbow]

I don't think there's anything wrong with playing competitively, but to me things like flattening of weapon profiles, removing points for weapons, removing relic options for characters, flattening terrain rules...

All of those things are part of the core rules that narrative players have to deal with or else re-write.

[silk merlin]

So a lot of that wasnt competitive, it was trying to make the game more new player friendly, you just complained about Comp players who love optimizing and number crunching, those people LIKED that stuff because it was more dial to tweak and make broken combos

[next elbow]

From what I heard a lot of those decisions were made to make the game easier to balance for competitive play

[silk merlin]

Comp players would love more upgrades so they can make relic WLT character combos

[silk merlin]

A lot of people say a lot of things

[next elbow]

XD

[silk merlin]

40K blew up in 9th, 9th was bloated as hell and GW saw a lot of new players bounce off because it was to dense and complex

[next elbow]

Anyway, I think we're just going around in circles at this point. I'm not convinced by GW's advertising, and we'll see what happens when everything releases and if they've made a game worth playing or I'll just sit on the sidelines for another 3 years

[unkempt grove]

Don't sit on the sidelines. Be the change you want to see. Write an entire edition of your own from scratch! /j

Clearly this will not become a massive time sink

[next elbow]

XD

Or I'll just keep playing 30k

[unkempt grove]

Convert all the factions of 40k to work in 30k

[next elbow]

I'm running an escalation campaign that's into its 3rd month and going well enough. People are writing lore for their factions when they play games, taking pictures of their battlefields and hobby progress, and I'm writing the overarching story of the planet they're fighting on

[placid hull]

On it

[unkempt grove]

Too late. Ana already did it 2 seconds after I wrote the message

[placid hull]

Shame

[next elbow]

LMAO

One thing that occurs to me, just as we talk about the difference between competitive and narrative stuf...

On TGA, there's a new forum topic that's gotten 168 new pages of people going back and forth over lore tidbits. No rules, no pictures, no miniatures, just lore and the potential for new factions.

I think if I were to put it into some form of visualization...

Competitive is like a wide, shallow pool. You've got lots of arching pathways to how to crunch the numbers and build lists and play missions and there's so much of that to explore, especially in changing metas with new models and quarterly updates to points and such, and that does great in keeping people's attention because it's ever changing based on how x army does in y tournament, etc... But once you've solved the equation, there's little to do, which is why the equation must keep changing.

Meanwhile, Narrative is a really, really deep pond. It goes straight down, with lots of different details involved in different storylines... but there's not a lot of those storylines, because we keep visiting the same battlefronts, like Armageddon and Baal and the Maelstrom. It also doesn't change very often, it is pretty static, and so it's hard to keep people's attention on it for long, which is why there's a lot less content for it, because once you've described the Ultramarines in a video, there's no point in making a second one.

But lore is important, and a lot of people care about it a lot, otherwise rumored lore changes in AoS wouldn't create such activity.

I think there's something to study there in terms of warhammer and attention-economy, but I'm not smart enough for that.

[dry laurel]

The irony is Warmahordes used to get mocked viciously for 'fighting in flat empty circles' and then as soon as it died, the mentality immediately got adopted by 40k/AoS.

Anything GW does to try and crack down on it is a plus in my book, even if the results may be less than they'd prefer. That they acknoweldge it at all is a good sign considering what a leviathan whale it is at turning.

[silk merlin]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/oefzq9fg/new40k-how-your-army-affects-your-mission/

[silk merlin]

Well players now have different Asymmetrical primary missions so now both players have a different things they need to do in game

[flat trout]

They did on Warhammer+

They’re adding points back, but only on certain upgrades

[trail oasis]

Oh word?

[trail oasis]

Is that in the sense of enhancements like they mentioned yesterday, or actually having points bumps?

[flat trout]

Like, extra points on heavy weapons and stuff

Though whether this is for 11th or some edition beyond is unknown

[trail oasis]

I mean id be very surprised if they weren’t discussing 11th

[silk merlin]

They talked about potentially doing it but there was nothing solid saying they were gonna do it

[summer anchor]

I feel like Chaos should get some heresy era goodies in modern 40k

[silk merlin]

GW is not very interested in that it's also been 10,000 years plus being in the warp

That stuff has either broke or is unrecognizable anymore

[vestal vine]

I’ll take dark mech shenanigans for 500 Alex

[brittle canopy]

28mm spiders

shockroaches

[vestal vine]

If they can give an abominant an ancient Volkite weapon they sure as shit can bring heresy era back

[silk merlin]

They also gave it a tail and tentacles

Some dark age tech is not the same as just getting to use HH stuff

[vestal vine]

Dark mech have tentacles

The tech is the same

Literally took it during the Hersey and brought it into the eye, worked on and expanded on it, and then put it out

[silk merlin]

I assume when people say HH stuff they mean just straight HH units/models and not some weapons/tech

[vestal vine]

The forge world knights exist

There’s plenty of examples

[brittle canopy]

csm and regular marines have big enough lines for 40k as is

[vestal vine]

Regular sure

[brittle canopy]

it's pretty big

[vestal vine]

But going in to tenth so much stuff got knocked into legends

Yeah now take out the variations of a single model

[brittle canopy]

there's already the issue of having like 4 units fighting over the "moves and bonks in melee" role

[vestal vine]

What’s your point

[brittle canopy]

it's fine to let the range be the range

[vestal vine]

Half the models don’t see play

[brittle canopy]

I think it's actually better internal balance than that and frankly that's a better use of the rules team's time to fix

[vestal vine]

You play csm?

[brittle canopy]

yes, I have a CSM army along with my 'nids

[vestal vine]

Well that’s lovely, I’m sure plenty of other people would think having more variety is nice

[brittle canopy]

I have shouted into the void about my my dark apostle's little buddies shouldn't eat rhino slots

[vestal vine]

Maybe if they would stop making characters with plasma pistols who don’t add anything it’d be better

Look at the amount of characters

[brittle canopy]

sometimes drip is worth it

[vestal vine]

But by that metric you’ve got the same problem. Characters that do the same things fighting for the same role

[brittle canopy]

I do think that's actually an issue when they go into the same role for sure

fundamentally there isn't a good idea of what to do with the DA or MoP or MoE right now when they're all just kind of Bad Chaos Lords

jump pack lord does have a role though and he's the most recent "character with a plasma pistol" granted

wait no, the red corsair has one

yeah he sucks and is pointless

[vestal vine]

Yup

[brittle canopy]

victim of "has box, must have sheet" instead of just being an alt-lord

[vestal vine]

Victim of plasma pistol syndrome

Just give them something new and interesting instead of that gun

They did a one off with that neo Volkite pistol and never touched it again

[jovial spindle]

Yeah the Crucible somewhat finally fixed GW's obsession with giving every character a plasma pistol.

Like why can't the red corsair captain have a hand flamer for an option when regular corsairs can take a hand flamer.

Most of the "heresy era tech" would honestly also be stuff they looted from the loyalists.

Within that 10,000 time period.

Yet they don't have plasma cannons in spite of having plasma guns and plasma pistols. They don't have hand flamers or heavy flamers in spite of having regular flamers.

And I don't give af about "overlap between loyalists and heretics". The ways GW have been trying to make Heretic Astartes distinct has been mostly through melee, cultists, melee, and more melee. Like even three out of the four cult legions (then again even Tsons if you count the blue chickens) have a lot catering to melee.

We haven't even really gotten new proper chaos vehicles that aren't some sort of daemon engine haven't we?

[silk merlin]

You say that like 90% of the HH stuff isn't just a bunch of tank variants

[silk merlin]

I think that's kind of the point, they want chaos to be weird and not just Marines with spikes

[jovial spindle]

Problem is outside of updated kits like Mutilators and Defilers as well as they few daemon engines they have, they really are just spikey marines but super melee focused.

[silk merlin]

Well they are still Marines, but at the start they were basically mostly 1 to 1 with Loyalists and over time have been diverging

Marines also have like every unit type around so almost any unit will usually have some Marine unit you could say its like

[jovial spindle]

Kind of but hardly.

Like you're kind of ignoring my point that outside of daemon engines and cultists, they're mostly just more melee oriented. Which once again doesn't really work when you realize that most divergent chapters are really just melee marines.

[silk merlin]

I mean possessed, spawn, Daemon Princes

[vestal vine]

I don’t understand what you’re trying to get at, genuinely

[silk merlin]

Chaos is a melee faction but they really dont have a ton of 1 to 1 units that mirror Marines besides some older or more basic ones

[vestal vine]

You went from thinking GW doesn’t want heresy, then it’s okay because somehow tank variants are fine, then back to the silly argument

Pick a side

[silk merlin]

?

When did I say tank varients were fine

[vestal vine]

Here

[jovial spindle]

Yeah I'm with Khan here, respectfully. You're not really making sense.

[silk merlin]

That was not a positive comment lol

[vestal vine]

You’re all over the place

[silk merlin]

Tank Variants isnt really variety

[jovial spindle]

Like your talking about tank varients ironically emphasizes my issue with most new chaos units being just melee units.

[silk merlin]

There are Daemon Engines

[jovial spindle]

Even the three units you listed for chaos, the posessed, spawn, and DP are all heavily melee oriented.

[silk merlin]

Ya CSM is a primarily melee faction

[jovial spindle]

And..... what even is your argument at this point?

[vestal vine]

You sure?

[silk merlin]

Yes? They have like IW and some but a majority are more interested in melee

[jovial spindle]

Even the Daemon Engines have a similar problem, where most engines are rather heavily kitted out for melee options.

With the forgefiend and defilers being the two exceptions I can mostly think of.

And the discordant, who is mostly just a character.

[silk merlin]

Venomcrawler is 50/50

[jovial spindle]

And the Venomcrawler is stuck with the Obliterators.

Which GW STILL hasn't updated.

Even though Mutilators finally got a kit now.

[silk merlin]

I mean thats just kind of its own issue

[loud flicker]

Guys, crussade isn't really going anywhere because that content just used to be campaign books anyway for 40k.

[jovial spindle]

Still ties in with my point of how outside of the Defiler, most Chaos units tend to heavily cater to being some variety of melee beatstick. Which imo isn't really that much of a strong separator from regular marines since most divergent chapters are melee beatstick chapters.

If Chaos did get more daemon engines and more ranged units to help them be more distinct (lole why can't World Eaters have their own daemon engine version of that Bloodletter Cannon thing?) That would be neat.

[jovial spindle]

Respectfully I must ask. Huh? We weren't really talking about crusade.

[loud flicker]

I was further up the convo, not in the recent.

[silk merlin]

I mean if we are talking the Variants, TSons, DG, and EC all have a bit of a heavy shooting focus to some level

[jovial spindle]

Yeah, with DG being the most fleshed out.

It would be nice if the other cult legions got the variety of daemon engines DG has.

[silk merlin]

I mean absolutely

I just dont think the answer to any of these issues is letting them take the 50 HH tanks

Just make more new chaos stuff

[brittle canopy]

Daemon engines that do pewpew is definitely the most obvious place to expand

[brazen grove]

I'd prefer it if they gave back CSM some of their versatility. There's almost no point in building normal csm with bolters in 10th as their abilities don't do anything with it.

[next elbow]

bolters have been bad in 40k for a really long while now

[silk merlin]

Bolters dont do anything in genral

[next elbow]

it took 30k giving bolters an extra shot at 24 inches, and a THIRD shot if you stand still, for bolters to finally be ok

and then they also had to make tactical marines with bolters the de-facto way to win the game

with no other weapons they could take

[midnight elbow]

Bolters are good in 30k also because the main target has only 1 wound at T4 and one of the two other factions is 1W at T3.

[silk merlin]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/xlppkx5s/new40k-take-cover-with-updated-terrain-rules/

[red relic]

Here's a bullet point list of neoprene squares you use in every game to create an evocative, narrative-driven battle

[silk merlin]

They gave out the dimensions for free and actively encouraged people to make their own to fit their gaming mats/tables

[unkempt grove]

GW can only hold players' hand so much to make narrative games. At the end of the day, it comes down to players to take the format GW has given them and make it special

[silk merlin]

People complain about GW not allowing creativity then get mad when GW tells them to get creative lol

[brittle canopy]

These maps actually look pretty good on the table and the way the terrain is designed is to enable you to use stuff other than Just Ruins

That corner piece? Copse of trees and a rock

The long low piece? Hedges

[trail oasis]

Warhammer players are subhuman and can never be made happy

[loud flicker]

maps look ok, Just need more scatter terrain (craters, barbed wire, crates+ barrels etc.)

[worthy furnace]

I think its not enough to give 40k players the option to get creative...

Unfortunately this is a problem partially manufactured by GW and the tournament culture. The strict adherance to rules and cracking down on things like creative liberty when it comes to modelling or coming up with your own rules has led to a generation of warhammer players that simply put, are not creative and do exactly what the books say.

Its not 100 percent unfixable though, but its not like you can just flick a "be creative now" switch on the whole hobby and see it change overnight. This is a problem that has had years upon years of reinforcement to get to this point and its gonna take just as much time to weem people out of that mindset again.

[unkempt grove]

So GW should what? Not even bother to try to make things better? Keep going as things are since new players aren't creative?

Giving players the opportunity to be creative is the most GW can do, and frankly there's very little real harm in doing that. They're passing the ball to the community, and now it's their time to do something with it

[silk merlin]

Also GW didn't really start the competitive scene at all, groups like WTC exist because GW DIDNT support this stuff

GW has been taking a thing that was already happening and taking control of it instead of letting others do it, all the things people complain most about comp are usually because of them

[worthy furnace]

That is not what I said

I said that simply throwing a creative switch on the hobby after basically conditioning a lot of the newer players for a very long time that you needed to be rigid in order to fit the very tournament esque format that they have been promoting for quite a while isnt gonna be enough to reverse what theyve made the norm in the game and that its gonna take time to undo that min maxing "doing things because its the most efficient tournament approved meta list of the time" mindset

[worthy furnace]

it became a self eating snake. The tournament scene adapted due to a lack of support for a more meta consise game and then GW came in and tried to profit off of the tournament scene by pushing more support their way but the issue is when you cater to that crowd you have to try and push for more balance changes and warhammer is a game you simply cannot truly balance, not without basically removing all the flavour and fun because it adds variables of randomness and elements that cannot be easily put into a spreadsheet mathhammer document.

and at that point the factions stop being truly unique and start just being variations of the same abilities and rulesets

[next elbow]

every rule is +1 to something or re-roll something now. That's how boiled down 10th ed has become. The only variation is what units those rules effects and how you apply them.

But there's also something else to understand, and that's that when you're looking for pick-up games, the most balanced and even way to play is going to be the path of least resistence and the way that many new players enter a community.

People that play narrative often retreat to their own homes and garages. Narrative games and campaigns do better in those family or tight friend cliques that know each other well enough to get along even if something is unbalanced or random.

So, you get generations of gamers that are introduced to the game via the most balanced ruleset.

In this way, the new push to cram some narrative into the competitive ruleset might be a good thing, as it introduces some concepts that make for assymetrical objectives and such.

The trouble is that instead of expanding options to play different narrative game modes, I worry that they're sacrificing narrative by trying to stuff it into the competitive ruleset.

At the end of the day, tournament players are going to do what they want, regardless of what GW does.

I don't think this new system is made to dramatically change how tournaments operate (that's more a side effect, to pull away from clear L-shaped terrain and round objectives to make boards more appealing on streams and advertisements), but it DOES dramatically change those pick-up games and new players entering the community

and I guarantee there are far more games being played between noobs at local game stores than there are tournament games

[midnight elbow]

Clear plastic square with a single one colour broken piece of pipe on it. Got it!

[red relic]

GW's current stable of designers is recruited pretty much entirely from the 2000s-2010s tourney grinder scene tho. No matter how much they read up on GW's old rulesets now, they didn't experience any real narrative play in their formative years. They're trying to recreate an experience they've never had and it shows.

[brittle canopy]

Like none of that is true? They have a balance and events team that draws from there but it's very much not the design team

[lilac onyx]

Yeah, that's not even remotely accurate lol.

[brittle canopy]

It's just basing your terrain

[unkempt grove]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink I guess

[flat trout]

I’m a simple girl who’s really just happy to get anything

I’m the person who yells “YAY! NEW SPACE MARINE MODELS!” at every reveal show

Ngl it’s hurtful hearing big creators call people like me pigs who eat up whatever slop GW puts out.

Like… it’s a new thing. I’m happy with the new thing. Let me be happy with the new thing.

[dry laurel]

The Space Marine fans keep the model ranges for the other armies funded, so good for them

Probably wouldn't have my beloved Space Dwarfs if Primaris weren't refilling GW's cocaine bucket ever quarter.

That, and Heresy as a whole.

[trail oasis]

I mean unironically same

[trail oasis]

Also lowkey I think this is overblown

Yeah, SM get the largest share, but it’s nowhere near as bad as it was in previous editions

[unkempt grove]

Pretty much the same for me. Almost any new thing is a good thing in my book. I just remind myself that the people who complain all the time are probably having less fun than I do with the hobby, so I still come out ahead

[loud flicker]

GW just dosn't make a balanced game that could be used in a tourny setting. The only time this seems to have been close is 8th ed when it was still index hammer.

[next elbow]

I'd feel a lot better if the 'new thing' that GW were making was like... I dunno...

• Chaos Rhino, Vindicator, Predator, and/or Land Raider with a sprue that's not from 2nd edition
• Chaos Bikers and Spawn that are updated from 3rd edition
• Obliterators that are their own kit with options instead of stuck with the Venomcrawler
• Chaos Terminators that aren't immediately out of scale with the new Space Marine variants and that have at least more than one pair of lightning claws
• Chaos Helbrutes that aren't half the size of their space marine counterpart
• Chaos Daemons that... exist.

It gets old when the entire Space Marine range gets to be refreshed every edition but your favorite faction is still dragging a vestigial limb along that's still stuck in 3rd ed >.>

But yes, complaining is absolutely something I do too much.

I own this flaw and I apologize for it and I regret to inform you all that it is unlikely to change any time soon XD

[brittle canopy]

I mean CSM just got a plethora of new stuff, they're kind of the second to last guys to complain

I just finished the new raptor kit

[next elbow]

I know, but a lot of this comes from me loving/hating the faction since 4th ed.

Remember, those same raptors were updated in 6th. So even though we haven't gotten new Spawn or Bikers or Rhinos, we've gotten Raptors twice.

[brittle canopy]

add spikey bits to the deimos

[next elbow]

I cannot stress how unsatisfying and frustrating this answer is.

[brittle canopy]

I have a falcon downstairs that's still the current model from when I was 8

CSM eat good

[next elbow]

Good for you. I want a vehicle that actually matches my army in style at least if not in scale.

CSM have gotten good things, but half of the things they've gotten chaos marine players never asked for (coughdinobotscough)

[brittle canopy]

the forgies are great

next you'll hate on the venomcrawler

[unkempt grove]

Like every faction, CSM will be updated in time, but I think it's fair to say that CSM should probably be lower in priority in this regard given how they've gotten multiple updates, while other factions are still waiting for their first update

[next elbow]

and they are left with a faction list that is the most wildly inconsistent in terms of age and detail of models

[next elbow]

I agree, absolutely Dark Eldar and Grey Knights NEED their moment in the sunlight

And in fact, my greater theory is that GW is planning something much larger in terms of chaos in general, thanks to a few larger trends I've seen.

[unkempt grove]

GSC also havent gotten any major releases since their launch iirc (beyond a shit load of extra characters)

[next elbow]

But if aeldari can get 6 variations of 'elf with gun', and 30k can get 4 variants of every tank in full plastic, surely they can update the rhino vehicle sprue.

But anyway, hear me out on this one:

[unkempt grove]

But its a classic

[next elbow]

I will do unspeakable things to summon unseeable terrors into your psyche at night, in Minecraft

[silk merlin]

tbf Loyalists havent gotten new versions of those either, bikes though suck, spawn however are like the DP where so many factions use it I imagine updating it is a whole thing

[next elbow]

Evidence A. TWO new video games have been announced, Dawn of War 4 and Total War: 40k, both of which obviously feature Space Marines v Orks as the main conflict. NEITHER has any Chaos faction at all in their starting roster.
Counterpoint: Chaos is often released later as easy DLC bait for extra money

Evidence B. Every lore event has described the Cicatrix Maledictum as being a barfing of Chaos Daemons onto planets across the galaxy, and the whole 'dark side' of the galaxy being plagued with chaos incursions of all sorts

Evidence C. Vashtorr the Arkifane, Be'lakor, and the Daemon Prince are the only Daemon models that have come out in a decade, and Vashtorr is in the Chaos Marine codex, oddly.

Evidence D. The Slaanesh update for Age of Sigmar introduced brand new Slaanesh Daemon models that never made the transition to 40k.

This leads me to believe that GW have a larger plan that was likely determined back when those Slaanesh Daemons were made, and there's going to be a massive wave of Chaos Daemon models coming under a new style.

[next elbow]

Loyalists got whole new vehicles designed for them. I'd dig that for Chaos too. Please give me a transport that is not stuck in 3rd edition.

I'm willing to bargain, James Workshop. I don't need everything, but please, please stop tripping right before the finish line