Horus Heresy - Third Edition

[swift harness]

Still, if they changed reactions somewhat and did basically one giant balance update and rules-cleanup we might have a system on our hands that's potentially as good as HH1

[nimble tendon]

"A source" same as any other rumour

But I also find it likely bassd on the books they've released recently

[nimble tendon]

2.0 could be a lot better than 1.0
But it needs a big cleanup

[swift harness]

Yep.

Having said that, I know this is the leaks and rumours section, but do we have anything concrete at all at this point?

[nimble tendon]

I don't believe we have anything concrete for any of it

There's a couple sources corroborating a boxset with some maybe new sculpts. So that seems likely enough
But the new edition rumours piled onto that are much more wishy washy

But there's been no "potatocam" leaks or anything

[swift harness]

Potatocam leaks is almost the holy grail of early information, but we don't have any sources of reputable info when it comes to ruleschanges or systemupdates then? (besides the models thing, but that is a miniature source, not the HH game itself)

[nimble tendon]

Not as far as I'm aware

[swift harness]

Hmmm ok

[cold lagoon]

It's super weird that it took GW until the return of the squats to introduce a weapon type that just always works the same with no further modifiers

[nimble tendon]

If we must have weapon types, a Basic type would be nice

[cold lagoon]

That and I'd change rapid fire to rapid fire (X) and maybe reintroduce Volley

[nimble tendon]

If you have Rapidfire X (which I fully agree with), Volley becomes redundant. It basically was Rapid Fire X

[earnest breach]

Can I please remind you all a mod has asked this to be kept to heresy rumours about a new edition, not game design discussion?

[brittle gorge]

So, new boxset is pretty likely. More likely that it is a new starter set than just something like the MKIII splash box, from the sounds of it.
Various talk of it being MKII and/or MKV based.
Beyond that, we’re not sure?
I still feel a balance pass is most likely.

[dapper sentinel]

Rumors of the boxset are here: https://discord.com/channels/832649952043204659/1315338874175885423

[brittle gorge]

Understood, but that’s about all we have for the 2.5/3 rumors, right?

[dapper sentinel]

The last credible thing I saw in here was someone mentioning bringing back characteristics from 2e/necromunda like cool and willpower instead of just having leadership.
Then a big discussion about whether the game designers being new or the same means the edition will be the same or different, and theorhetical mandates from management.
Then it went gamedesigny-wishlisty.

[brittle gorge]

I find adding characteristics unlikely if they aren’t completely refreshing the edition and all its books, which I find unlikely.

[dapper sentinel]

The things we know from before that:

• Rumors have mentioned an arcane journal style release model with legion specifics.
• We know GW always puts out a big release in the summer, and that there's a 3 year rotation for that. It's always in the summer either right before or right after the fiscal year changeover in case GW needs to bump up the last fiscal year or put it on the next one if they need to.
• The big summer release is generally a new edition, as to how many changes they make with that edition, who knows.
• The big summer release is generally teased/announced at adepticon.

[grave falcon]

I'd be very surprised if they didn't do new army books for marines at least

[dapper sentinel]

As unlikely as it seems from what I've heard from people that know people who are playtesters (take this at face value I could be wrong) that it's going to be a new edition. I know its not what a lot of people want. It might not happen. But it seems likely to me.

[brittle gorge]

Got it.

[dusky ore]

The gap between when 2.0 was written and when 3.0 was written is much larger than 3 years.

They’ve had plenty of time to write new books for each faction reflecting the changes

[dapper sentinel]

I'm very curious if you have more information about this. I'm assuming the pandemic delayed releases. Already writing 3.0 when 2.0 comes out I suppose makes sense given the lead times to print books and whatnot, particuarly if they were just getting started.

[grave falcon]

2nd ed was ready for release a year before it actually came out, they start work on the next edition pretty much as soon as the prior one goes to print.

[dapper sentinel]

Must feel weird to have to write expansions for 2.0 while 3.0 is in progress, but yeah it makes sense.

[dusky ore]

Ben Guthrie and Cleary Mooney brigaded Anuj’s Facebook group and in the mudslinging the time table on the 2.0 design process was discussed

[dapper sentinel]

Is this still online? What group?

[dusky ore]

The Legiones Astartes Facebook page. No idea if it’s still around

[nimble tendon]

I feel like a lot of the rumours of '3.0' are starting to get contradictory
And they all seem to be "I spoke to someone who spoke to someone who heard that..."
And although the people sharing this rumours may be honest and genuine, that's a lot of chinese whispers

[dusky ore]

The only rumors come from Valrak. Everything else is people adding context from what they hear from the UK heresy community adjacent people that have heard rumors and are sitting on them after the 2.0 debacle. Rumors are by definition a game of Chinese whispers.

Valrak has given a timetable and models, nothing about the rules. Heresy Hammer has mentioned a few things they’ve heard about potential rules changes. Now Alex has kindly shared some more rules rumors they heard in their group. A Twitter account called Crypta Miniatures is claiming to be part of a cybersecurity discord that has access to a full leak of 3.0 info.

[tired wyvern]

That's one hefty claim.

[brittle gorge]

Also, re: playtesters, they do also give different documents to different playtesters, and as we can see from the leaked playtest rules from 2.0 to what was actually released, quiite different

[dusky ore]

It’s dubious because they don’t sound like they know anything about infosec and they’re only posting to argue about culture war issues on Twitter

[dapper sentinel]

Alex?

[humble bolt]

What's the newest updates to this chat there's a lot to skim through here

[hardy mesa]

Just reiterating old points it seems

Also you’d think 3.0 would already be leaked, considering how leaky it’s been at GW recently.

[dusky ore]

Brutal going away isn’t something that’s been mentioned in here

[humble bolt]

This is assuming GW isn't responsible for the rumors

[hardy mesa]

No I mean actual leak with photos

GW have been like a wooden shack in the middle of hurricane these days, eldar, aos, tow, all those leaks

You’d think if any 3.0 stuff have been printed or packed, it would already be leaked.

[whole pumice]

They made a lot of changes to the playtesting this time versus last time

[whole pumice]

If we assume a July release it’s coming, I expect

[dense spear]

They playtested last time?

[hardy mesa]

obligatory tsons legion rules

[whole pumice]

Yes and most feedback was ignored

And or. They went to the printers in parallel to feedback

[north basalt]

Likelyhood the re-box fixes instructions? Spartan/ LR had some assembly errors/ ommisions from memory. Likely a few other instruction booklets need changing also in HH.

[hardy mesa]

Definitely have to fix mk3 instruction too

So we don’t have “what is this?” Post every other week.

[crisp aurora]

You need a single container of all the rules - something GW should do of course. But equally it's also intended to be a game that you play with what you have to hand, almsot modular, rather than a single cohesige thing.

[brittle gorge]

Yeah this is the Necromunda approach and I’d be totally happy with that for Heresy.

Just kinda curate what you want to use at any given time/event and go from there. I realize not everyone is into that kind of “arbitrated” style of gaming.

[crisp aurora]

Its the community want everything at once as a kind of comprehensive set of rules - which has been a bit unmanageable for munda

(especially given its lack of consistency over 7(!) years!)

[crisp aurora]

I would love this, bolt action style, as discussed with @dusky ore on the MD discord

I wish the heresy lists were more like this

Modular army lists for modular conflicts, rather than " the everything everywhere all at once " options smorgasbord heresy is currently - something that pushes it away from being "narrative", towards more optimized lists and all the special sauce armies

[nimble tendon]

GW has only ever moved to more and more freeform army building

Such highly restrictive army lists are out of the question.

Also, even in lore your typical canonical marine company is basically every unit in the liber thrown in a melting pot.
So even lorewise there would be nothing to draw from to make such restrictions

And, "fluffy" or "narrative" often gets confused with "spam".
Eg armoured company = spamming tanks, no infantry support (unrealistic)

[dusky ore]

Companies of armor are only tanks

Heavy infantry comes from entirely different units

[crisp aurora]

Id disagree, from the lore, too about what makes up marine formations 🙂

But that's ok

[nimble tendon]

But armoured companies don't deploy without infantry support. Armoured Battalions include infantry companies for exactly that purpose

[dusky ore]

Do you mean Brigades

Brigades include infantry battalions

[crisp aurora]

I feel LI have been showing this well - the components of mixed armies

Things like this 🙂

[dusky ore]

Yeh a sub cohort is kind of a half battalion thing

[crisp aurora]

I know this is representative - but I'd rather heresy did use detachment structures more creatively and lego-like

[dusky ore]

Too much soup but same idea

[hardy mesa]

Lotta dreads for 65 dudes

[crisp aurora]

Or just this

I like this better as an army list to be honest

[crisp aurora]

I agree with this however!

Its bizarre how plentiful Levi's are in LI 🤣

But I've found LI interesting for its alternative take on what makes up heresy armies

(and I think the lore in the LI books is very good in general, and more akin to the black books of old)

[nimble tendon]

A FoC like that would be good tbh
I want them to
But I know they won't

[nimble tendon]

Wait, why are Contemptors in a Subterranean Assault force?
They can't travel like that lmao

[crisp aurora]

I don't know how much crossover between LI writing and 28mm writing/design there is

[nimble tendon]

I imagine nill
The background lore has always grown out of what works for the tabletop. It's rarely, if ever, come the other way

[crisp aurora]

Ahaha, maybe they follow in the tunnels, Hades breaching drill style

[nimble tendon]

Contemptors commando crawling along

[crisp aurora]

It says the dreads come along after the perimeter defenses are removed.

But yes an intriguing image - like the gun cannon separation in Gundam

[nimble tendon]

Yeah that still makes no sense, ngl
Why would they be integral to the formation if the gameplay is for them to do something completely different

Just a prime example of tabletop demands driving lore

[crisp aurora]

However I do want something more like that, really love the system even though it's imperfect - the FOC just struggles especially with how much is put into Elites and HS.

And what is therefore rarely if ever used

[nimble tendon]

I agree
The idea of FOC is to restrict armies and prevent skewing off in unfun directions

Even the base FOC is very loose as slots are largely arbitrary (did someone say Phallanx Warders in Fast Attack?)

Legiones Imperialis splitting tanks out into their own slots is great

GW would then to resist the urge to throw that all out the window.
"Here's a RoW that makes Terminators troops, an entire army of 2+ saves is now entirely viable"

[solid herald]

I would really like to see the change to Sweeping mechanic. It just seems too powerfull. Sweeping should have some downside imo

[nimble tendon]

It's very all or nothing
I believe back in t'day a sweep let you attack again
But then they simplified it to just removed

I think 30k has a lot of very "all or nothing" mechanics, which I'd like to see smoothed out a little

[grave falcon]

Id personally prefer freeform army selection with some good, solid, examples of themed armies but the system is built for competitive/pug games by default

[nimble tendon]

Pickup games always migrate to less narrative more winning

Especially as internet culture becomes more and more integrated into the games culture

[whole pumice]

Don't make us lock the thread all.

This area is not for discussing what should be in 3.0 or not. Its for actual rumors about the release. take the rest of #hh-general #homebrew-content or #offtopic-general depending.

[terse flare]

that wouldn't really work since there are no real means for infantry to split fire in heresy, not to mention how that goes the legion style of specialization

[whole pumice]

did you see my message above?

[terse flare]

i was reading through it all and had not reached the end of the thread

but i have now yes

[small frost]

I realise that it's after the horse has bolted, but would it be possible to pin any new messages that are actual rumours and leaks in this thread? Right now, the only one is the initial entry.

[terse flare]

this was the most recent rumor mate

@small frost

[small frost]

Appreciated.

[small steeple]

All I ask is that the rule structure for the #i-dark-angels is entirely revamped. Hexagrammaton gimmicks have no place outside of Rites of War

[pale niche]

I mean if they make DA RoW not shooting yourself in your own foot sure.

[crisp aurora]

@whole pumice I also feel it's not how the wings work - wings work cohesively together for a short space of time, to complete an objective. The members come from across a wider army and reorganize into their wing, to complete that singular objective, then return to their units. Whereas someone will bring a wing army to an event and it fights together for a long sustained series of narrative battles - which isn't how a wing works generally?

Anyway offtopic

[humble bolt]

Any new information here since 100 messages ago

[nimble tendon]

Nope
Which I think is why conversation so often veers 'off topic'. It's something people are very passionate about but there's essentially nothing substantial to talk about at all

I believe the last actual rumour was that it is handled by new writers that want to make their mark

And that new stats are added to make the game focus more on characters

[solid herald]

I really hope it doesnt mean herohammer. I already lost any enthusiasm for TOW seeing people squeezing every single point out of 50% character allowance

[nimble tendon]

I totally agree
I already think 30k puts too much emphasis on super-human [super-super-humans?] characters and they're the tamest characters in any GW battle game

[willow belfry]

And as other mods have pointed out, this chat is for actual rumors. Not wish listing. Wish listing goes in other chats

[vagrant finch]

Since we've gone a while without any verifiable / trustworthy rumours or leaks, we'll lock the thread until something new pops up.

Feel free to raise a ModMail if anything comes up and we don't notice it ourselves. \o

[vagrant finch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kup0GNfoAjo

• has heard something big is launching on August 2nd. Unclear if this is Cathay, Heresy 3E, Space Marine Codex 2.0, etc.

[vagrant finch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wALi5oXuTI

(You can't make me unlock the thread!)

[vagrant finch]

Horus Heresy - Third Edition

For discussing box contents - https://discord.com/channels/832649952043204659/1371679042033553488

[violet patio]

Do we have any info at all on what this new edition is like?

[vagrant finch]

Nothing beyond rumours.

@spark bay may want to re-share the "Arcane Journals" thing here, however.

[twilit carbon]

hopefully
similar
but better balance

[plucky kite]

You know that won’t happen lol

[twilit carbon]

i can dream!!

[violet patio]

Honestly kinda scared if balance is the focus it becomes like 40k. the constant chasing of balance at the cost of having a good game

[daring shoal]

there was that 1 hopeful rumour of horus heresy to implement bolt actions "armies split up into early/middle/late war."
but with no identifiers on that box. think we can say its not gunna be

[spark bay]

Ur not my real dad

[plucky kite]

I don’t think there’s enough of a rule writing team for that

[twilit carbon]

i think chasing perfect balance is anathema to the point of heresy
i also think brutal 3 dreadnoughts are an abomination against god

both can be true

[tropic linden]

Ew no thanks

[violet patio]

Bolt action doesnt even really do that lmao

[plucky kite]

Guys remember this is still a specialist game

We are not 40k or aos

[violet patio]

thats gotta be deceided by the players. It isnt baked into the rules of BA

[daring shoal]

hides his paratrooper + cromwell list

[twilit carbon]

heresy armies kinda already do that
we don't need rules distinctions for it imo

[spark bay]

For posterirty

I ain't typing it all again, it's also probably somewhere further up in this chat like 3 months ago

[daring shoal]

type it again rabbit.
do it!

[dim jungle]

If there's Arcane journals for the Legions, where are the generic units going? In the core Rulebook?

[plucky kite]

Cant you just copy the message

[twilit carbon]

presumably it'll work like fantasy does
big marine book, journals for legions themselves

[violet patio]

thats somehow worse

[twilit carbon]

still expensive, but cheaper

[plucky kite]

Cheaper if you play 1 legion

[violet patio]

instead of buying one overpriced book, you need to buy 2

[spark bay]

One medium book and one small book instead of large book

[dim jungle]

Well, im down for journals. Presumably that means more shit per legion.

And lighter....

[violet patio]

I can almost garentee that its gonna cost just as much if not more considering its GW

[twilit carbon]

the main thing is if they're anything like the fantasy journals, there'll be more lore, more colour plates, more of the stuff they can't fit in a big book with 9 legions

it's good if you do one legion only, and if you do more than one you're probably used to pirating the rules anyway

[violet patio]

More focussed lore sounds nice lol

[stuck bay]

But we will get powercreep with books droppong one after the other…

[dense gate]

It would also be most errr "in line with what the playerbase wants", most HH players aren't it the game for "wild meta swings"

[violet patio]

Im curious what they will do for knights and mechanicum

[twilit carbon]

dark mech rules folded in please and thank you

[violet patio]

could just drop em all at once to avoid that like they did with 2.0

[twilit carbon]

let me finally make my xana army properly batshit insane

[dim jungle]

No reason for them to drop books one after another

[daring shoal]

let me be stompy!

[dim jungle]

people tend to only play one legion

[violet patio]

the difference between loyalists and traitors is literally like 5 units, not worth 2 separate books

[twilit carbon]

exactly
gimme 1 big book

[stuck bay]

If we get 18legion journals + 3-4 core books i dont think they will drop them all at once

[plucky kite]

That’s my issue with the idea yeah

[twilit carbon]

if they do what they're doing with fantasy, a journal will likely drop with stuff too
be it resin upgrades, new character, something along those lines

[dim jungle]

I think that's quite likely actually if they're small 20-30 page journals.

[violet patio]

Its insane to me that since I started warhammer in 2020 I have only bought one codex. Its kinda because rules kept becoming invalidated and codexes would therefore always be out of date making it a waste of money

[twilit carbon]

it's not all doom

the key difference is heresy has far more "generic" options than fantasy, and i question where they would fit into a release schedule

or maybe they just drop all 9 loyalist journals on one weekend and all 9 traitor ones on another who knows

my main worry is im concerned they'll start culling the legends units
let me keep my boxnaught :(

[plucky kite]

I’d say like maybe 5 per week with a couple models

[stuck bay]

Maybe we get them in two big drops.
Istvaan with shattered legions + landingtraitors, shadow crusade/calth/imperiums secundus and solar war with the rest maybe. Only the wolfs werent part of any of the big events 🤔

[violet patio]

There were wolf detachments that helped the UM at the start of calth, but they were in such small numbers I doubt it would get them a book if thats how they get released

[dim jungle]

Unless the format of unit profiles completely changes, the current legacies would probably stay useable as is

updated or not

[drifting arch]

You thought DG Las were annoying

[dim jungle]

It's not like GW cares about how prominant a legion was in the war when it comes to thier release schedules

[drifting arch]

Get ready for DG Disintegratir squads

[dim jungle]

We'll get what sells best first

[proven light]

best i could do

probably not quite right

[dim jungle]

Well, i guess traitors cant use this box

thanks ChatGPT

[violet patio]

ew

[abstract cloud]

lol

[proven light]

nope

[stuck bay]

Damn traitores loyalist iron warriors 😤

[proven light]

loyalist IW are peak

[stuck bay]

https://tenor.com/view/computer-says-no-carol-beer-no-way-little-britain-trendizisst-gif-14015902623456325888

[daring shoal]

was a interesting version of events, as the saturnine loyalist iron warriors protected the lantern

[violet patio]

WHo was that sketch by? I remember watching it and really enjoying it but I cant for the life of me remember who did it

[daring shoal]

little britian?

[violet patio]

Thanks

[daring shoal]

theres only like 4? sketch artist groups to pick from: little britian / horrible histories / and their crews once they finished.

[humble bolt]

I severely doubt they've 40karised 30k

I think those fears are unfounded

Especially because YOU CAN SEE TEMPLATES IN THE BOX GUYS

[wooden forum]

I think it was actually "challenge tokens"

[proven light]

you might be right

[fading swift]

Wouldn't it be crazy if we got planetstrike missions back in this edition.

[dim jungle]

Cityfight please

[plucky kite]

Templates are in 11th so clearly it will be like 11th which is just 10th

[proven light]

making another attempt

im hoping the rules are a big departure from 2.0

[dim jungle]

In any way specifically?

[plucky kite]

I think removing BA would be a net positive

[dim jungle]

Agreed

[proven light]

no not any specific way although i do think they need to rework reactions, but the reason i want it to be a big departure is that id rather experience something new where they try to innovate a bit, idealy in a different direction than 40k

for example I would be pumped if we got activations that were like battletech

its like 0.00001% chance to happen but whatever I just want to try new shit

[dim jungle]

I agree reactions need a tweak (Or to be snapped out of existance). But i do want 30k to remain 30k. I'd be aggrevied if we got the bag-o-dice from bolt action to determine activations.

[proven light]

if I hate it ill continue playing 2.0 with all the friends who have 2.0 books

[proven light]

reactions need to be snapped out of existence buy reworking the game completely and doing phased alternating activations

[fading swift]

I honestly hope they just tweak stuff. Iterative development is better than throwing random ideas into the wall and seeing what sticks.

[dim jungle]

After all GW is marketing to people who presumably enjoy 30k, so it'd be a big risk to deviate much

financially

[abstract cloud]

as in each of us alternate inside of each phase?

[proven light]

is it really such a big risk? I'm not so certain about that, I think 30k is a good place for them to take risks and then use what they learn in 11th 40k

[daring shoal]

dont you dare! You monkey paw that to Command points and imma begin some shit

[plucky kite]

Reactions and strats aren’t that different.

[fast shell]

The d18 was a troll yippee

[daring shoal]

i 100x prefer reactions

[dim jungle]

I disagree, in fact i think it's very intentional that there not be much cross-polination between 40k and 30k. I'm fairly sure GW understands that this game is a refuge for people who prefer "The old way", and to threaten that might see many people abandon the company completely.

[abstract cloud]

not really honsetly, you get a lot more effective cp in heresy then you do 40k though

[dim jungle]

After all, most people don;t choose to play legacy systems, like 1.0

If it's not current, it tends to get lost

[proven light]

so in battle tech it goes something like this right:

movement phase:
we alternate moving units

shooting phase:
alternate declaring shooting

resolve shooting all simulataneously

physical combat phase
declare, resolve alternating

[plucky kite]

Ok? Still the same system really

[violet nova]

Personally I think most everything looks pretty neat.

[abstract cloud]

ok, that is basically what i have been thinking about, myself, i tried it, i kinda liked it

[proven light]

the cool thing about battle tech is that you alternate moves and then declare shootigns and then you have this big moment where everything gets resolved and all kinds of shit happen and it feeds a overaching narrative really well

[fast shell]

Helps that we aren't see much other than models, and the fact it's called 3rd edition lol

[plucky kite]

I actually fully know the rules

[fast shell]

Means most of the discussion is on the models or fearmongering speculation

[plucky kite]

Cuz I’m just built better and can see through the box

[proven light]

you tried that in 30k?

[abstract cloud]

i also like that if 2 shooting lists meet one doesnt get teh alpha strike

[fast shell]

Did they add skaven yet?

[abstract cloud]

40k

[proven light]

exactly,

[shut quest]

LI uses the same system

[plucky kite]

No they added fishmen

[shut quest]

Or similar at least

[proven light]

slightly different but yeah it does interesting stuff

[fast shell]

https://tenor.com/view/fire-writing-gif-24533171

[shut quest]

So SGS is at the very least aware of it

[proven light]

anyway personally i would be pumped if they did something like that for heresy, like if we're gonna have a new edition might as well be creative and exciting

[plucky kite]

Yeah but have you considered change is bad

[proven light]

no i have not considered it and will not

[plucky kite]

Holy shit a different opinion

I personally don’t care

All these games are basically the same anyway

[fast shell]

It would be cool, but heresy is the oldhead game and changing things too much might scare away the oldheads. Why I'm betting everything on this being 2.5th edition

[proven light]

im just not certain at all that this premise is true, but If I were a betting man I would agree with you that the likely outcome will be something closer to 2.5 than it is to whatever im describing

however these are just toy soldiers so if i dont like the new rules ill just play with the old rules so might as well do something crazy

[fast shell]

I can see what you mean about the premise being false. Might be a bit overconvinced myself

[dim jungle]

Change is fine, if it's change for good reasons. I don't appreciate change for the sake of change. Sure you can play the old edition, but being shelved really limits how many opponants you can find.

[plucky kite]

I actually think the reason people don’t like editions is just cause people don’t want to read the rules over again

Especially with how GW words their shit

[abstract cloud]

it's a skill to say so little with so many words

[proven light]

i like arcane wording because every time i play i interpret it differently

[plucky kite]

Entire page of words just to say “move 16”

[dense spear]

I've used that stupid 6 paragraph jump pack entry a few times in examples

[fast shell]

Tbf wargamers can be less than human when it comes to interpreting rules, so you often times do need a lot of words to help stop people from being assholes

[proven light]

i understand this angle but I only play with friends.

[plucky kite]

Kill the ones who are assholes

Just how Khorne intended it

[fast shell]

You have a beautiful mind and the soul of a king

[abstract cloud]

or nurgle

[proven light]

Kill people

The Emperor 🤝 Khorne

[plucky kite]

I do think he’s my fav chaos god

[proven light]

cant wait for a 5th chaos god to drop and everyone gets mad

[abstract cloud]

the dark king appears

[plucky kite]

I think you overestimate how much people care about chaos lore lol

[fast shell]

https://tenor.com/view/rat-clenches-fist-of-rage-rat-clench-fist-rage-gif-20880451

[dim jungle]

I wouldnt even notice

If it aint 1st, it's last

[abstract cloud]

please so much this, and name it malal just to anoy people

[fast shell]

Yeah we already have a 5th one, no one cares

[proven light]

i think you underestimate how much people need to project their misery on everything they touch

[plucky kite]

You know what? That’s the fairest thing anyone has ever said here

[carmine jackal]

https://tenor.com/view/rumor-gossip-heard-gif-18534192

Apparently, in 3.0, you are able to charge out of transports but it becomes a disordered charge

This rumour has some good provenance

[fast shell]

Assault rhinos coming back would be a fun one

[carmine jackal]

I just cannot reveal what it is

[fast shell]

Certainly makes despoilers more fun

[wooden forum]

I'd take the drawback in order to charge

[dim jungle]

Does Assault vehicle remove the disorder?

I hope so because that would be a serious nerf to the raider

[stuck bay]

I would assume that

[carmine jackal]

One would assume so

[fast shell]

I mean it doesn't seem like that bad a nerf tbh

[carmine jackal]

Sorta defeats the historical point of the raider though

[fast shell]

Like it's still the only way to transport termies on land

[carmine jackal]

It has always been an assault transport

[fast shell]

Ehhh it depends on your definition of historical. 3rd Ed used to have rhinos you could charge out of for example

[carmine jackal]

Yes but you've always been able to charge out of the Land Raider is my point

[drifting arch]

Except for Raiders I assume

[carmine jackal]

One would assume

[stuck bay]

Does this also impact charging out if deep strike/outflank/underground assault? This would be a huge change

[carmine jackal]

I can't say

(Because I don't know)

Though I do know that reserve actions are changing quite substantially

[dim jungle]

As in, can they please come in on turn 2 guaranteed?

That's one thing 40k does well

[carmine jackal]

If that's what you're looking for, you'll be disappointed

[dim jungle]

Well shit.

[carmine jackal]

You ain't getting a big old deep strike T2 guaranteed

[fast shell]

Finally, you can't charge out of deep strike again🙏

[carmine jackal]

From my understanding it's more like 40k's approach, but with a cap on how many units can arrive per turn

So you might get some T2 reserves guaranteed, but not like half an army

[fast shell]

Actually better question, have you heard anything about vehicles?

[carmine jackal]

https://tenor.com/view/its-a-ver-strong-maybe-bohdi-tulsa-king-s1e9-its-very-likely-gif-27419032

[dim jungle]

Well that's still better, i'll take it

[vagrant finch]

God, please.

Add Objective Control to unit profiles.

40k handles that system way better.

[dim jungle]

I pray for Toughness value

[fast shell]

https://tenor.com/view/cr1tikal-penguinz0-meme-woo-yeah-baby-gif-19316511

[carmine jackal]

I don't believe that is happening

[vagrant finch]

Ah, edition is a write-off in that case.

Shame.

[drifting arch]

For vehicles ?

[carmine jackal]

Models still have toughness, yes

[drifting arch]

Hell no

[dim jungle]

Yes, T and W for vehicles

[carmine jackal]

From what I have heard, vehicles do not have toughness values

[drifting arch]

That sucks, why would I wanna play 40k in HH

[fast shell]

Fucked up monstrosity where you have both toughness value and armor facing

[dim jungle]

Because 40k does vehicles better, and hence they actually get used in 40k.

and are good

[fast shell]

Also known as how necromunda does it

[drifting arch]

I know everything is ultimately a matter of personal taste but you have shit ones.

[carmine jackal]

https://tenor.com/view/too-silly-monty-python-gif-26596017

[drifting arch]

40k can keep it’s identity

[plucky kite]

I respect the honesty, however you too have shite taste

[drifting arch]

I don’t want it in HH that would kinda defeat the point of playing this different game system

[dim jungle]

Forgive me for despising a system that can see my 350pt tanks destroyed in a single shot. It's miserable.

[fast shell]

There is another solution. Return to pre-6th Ed vehicles. We don't need hull points anymore. Entirely unnecessary.

[carmine jackal]

Skill issue, position tanks better /s

Or take defensive enhancements (flare, aegis, VSG etc)

[drifting arch]

But all jests asides while vehicles need some tweaks, AV is cooler than wounds

[fast shell]

I mean that's also cause most tanks are overpriced in 2nd Ed lol

[tropic linden]

I still love the new models. Cant wait to pick em up

[carmine jackal]

On a more serious note, if that's your specific complaint, I think you're in for a treat

[drifting arch]

Yeah sometimes ur tank gets blown up by an up close melta, it’s part of the game and its narrative

[dim jungle]

As long as they increase effective durability, i'll be happy. If not, i'll just live with it

Thank god

[drifting arch]

Get rid of those stupid squadron rules and that’s it

Give them the same as Dreads. No wound spill

[tropic linden]

Tbh i never have my tanks dying first turn. It's often that predators die ofc, but land raiders and spartans really don't

[dim jungle]

Spartans don't, true enough. But i like sicarans, and it's a rare day they see turn 3

[wicked coral]

Me neither. This whole tankbhate has just blown up too much

https://tenor.com/view/husky-pun-dog-meme-gif-9639526

[fast shell]

I mean that's partially because sicarans are all overpriced lol

[tropic linden]

The funny part is people dont shoot your predators when you put decurions on em

[fast shell]

Cost wayyyyyy too much for what they do imo

[drifting arch]

Fix some values for Arquitors too

Way too expensive for what they do.

[wicked coral]

And it's model

[dim jungle]

They'd still just explode. The point is, these are centrepiece models. I should have to fuck up in a big way to see them destroyed. Not a single 6 on 6 lascannon shot.

Such as dreads

They stick around long enough to enjoy

(In my oppinion)

[tropic linden]

Just pring a Kytan

[cold lagoon]

Last version of apocalypse 40k also had losses removed at the end only so everyone got to shoot at least once, I think

[tropic linden]

They dont die

[wicked coral]

Nah exploding are fine. Bth a lascannon has to hit, role a 6 for armour penetration followed by a 6 for the table. That rarely happens

[loud fractal]

since chat is moving fast, pins aren't supported in threads, and there is a shitload to scroll through: do we have anything concrete yet or are we still just waiting for details

[fast shell]

Just rumors really

[dim jungle]

Just waiting and chatting

[fast shell]

Oh and I think something called squad tokens?

[wicked coral]

Yeah terrible rule.

[fast shell]

Or tactical markers?

Bit hard to read what it says on the box since it's very blurry

[plucky kite]

Tactical marines on tactical markers

[fast shell]

Either way, box comes with those tactical things and objective tokens

[dim jungle]

Could be some kind of order system such as LI?

Indication of intent

[drifting arch]

Or alternate activation, perhaps

Wait that’s already what LI does, no ?

[cold lagoon]

But vehicles got destroyed or made useless even easier back then?

[fast shell]

Honestly could be anything

[tropic linden]

They wont make it Li

[fast shell]

Yes and no. The vehicle damage table was harsher towards them, with the vehicle being wrecked on a 5 and exploded on a 6. But you had to either roll that 5+, immobilized them twice, or destroy all their weapons

So sheer weight of numbers made killing vehicles more likely but not guaranteed

10 Lascannons will always kill a predator in 2nd Ed heresy thanks to hull points. 10 Lascannons in 5th Ed could whiff on the damage table and leave the predator alive

[tropic linden]

However 10 lascannons should kill a predator

[fast shell]

Also AP 2 also did nothing on the VDT for some editions.

[fast shell]

Yes but 10 Lascannons doesn't just kill a predator, it kills most vehicles in the game since most things don't have more than 5 hull points

[spark bay]

Ruh roh, expect non potato cam soon

[small frost]

So I am dumb; could someone elaborate what an "Arcane Journal" refers to? I'm seeing it talked about but little else.

[dim jungle]

little book of rules per legion

[stuck bay]

In whfb:tow the good/bad/ugly got a liber style compendium like we have in heresy, and each faction gets a little addon book called an „arcane journal“ with additional lore/pictures/rules

[wicked coral]

Oh god please no. I hate having to act in every phase due to reaction already not to think of how terrible un-chill alternating activation is. Just to please Generation ticktock who can't concentrate half an hour at a time, no thank you

[plucky kite]

What

[dim jungle]

That's an incredibly reductive and offensive take

[small frost]

Thank you for the clarification!

I mean I wouldn't hate that.

[swift harness]

Alternate activations can be a very good system as other games have proven.

Thing is, I don't think GW writing is competent enough to get a super solid system down without obvious exploits

[humble bolt]

I heard horus' mace is great at doing that

[stuck bay]

I would like to get some „mini codexes“ more room for background and stuff for each legion

[wicked coral]

Hm? Why?

[drifting arch]

I’m not offended because I like you but that’s a really dumb take lol

[tropic linden]

Huh?

[drifting arch]

What does alternate activation as a game concept have to do with TikTok 😭

[plucky kite]

Ruh Roh Raggy

[swift harness]

Alt activations can be amazing, problem is that GW just doesn't do them well, see: these entire last 3 years of reaction discourse

Bruh, TikTok people don't even play board games.

[stuck bay]

Let grandpa have his little ramble about the youth, keeps him fresh and alive 😄

[tropic linden]

Alt activations satisfys them as people nowadays have shorter and shorter attention spans

[wicked coral]

Who gets offended by that? People who cannot concentrate for longer than 5 minutes? They never read my message because it was to long to begin with 😉

[dim jungle]

People who play tabletop games with alternate activations that you;ve just insulted in a wide sweep?

[plucky kite]

You calling everyone who wants alternating activations people who can’t concentrate.

[drifting arch]

Gorgoff is if my grandpa found Horus Heresy yeah

[swift harness]

TikTok kiddies are too busy scrolling social media to play 3 hour board games. Alternate activations would not get them playing wargames. I can guarantee you that🤣

[wicked coral]

Absolutely. I love newcromunda for that specific reason but for army games I hate it because it doesn't feel like controlling an army

[wicked coral]

Or the old black books

[swift harness]

Necro does it well ye, as does Bolt Action. Warmachine does it too iirc

[cold lagoon]

And the big faction book have basically complete lists with all the units you know for the armies from fantasy battles, magic items, upgrades for characters, etc

The journals then give you more magic items, alternative ways to build themed armies and alternative unit entries that are basically the existing units but with slightly different stats and special rules that actually encourage conversions

[fast shell]

Ahh more exemplary battles books but for specific legions now hmmm

[plucky kite]

I wonder what % of those said journals will be new stuff or what will be what 2.0 had

[dim jungle]

Hopefully just not too many losses

I'd take what we have currently, with updated effects

[swift harness]

Main thing I hope, IF they will rewrite that is if they will re-write the exemp battles unit and legacies. God that docu was such a clusterfuck

[wicked coral]

Like me liking Necromunda? I was soecifically talking about alternative activation in Horus Heresy and about how I like it or not.

[plucky kite]

Excepting loses is kinda a sad outlook don’t you think?

[wicked coral]

I say bolt action would be better without it

[swift harness]

Legacies of the Age of Darkness was the most "not-proofread" document that I think I ever had put in front of me

[dim jungle]

I get that but you did it by directly insulting people who disagree with you as tiktok kids with no attention span.

It's not very nice

[swift harness]

Disagree, works well there. Granted, the entire game is built around it sooo

[carmine jackal]

Idk, you've never read my dissertation

[dim jungle]

Sad, but i think realistic. We lost a lot from 1.0 to 2.0. I anticipate the same. Especially over here in DA, where options are the name of the game.

[swift harness]

That's why I stated: "ever had put in front of me"

[spark bay]

James is upset

[plucky kite]

I dunno man, I don’t think that’s being realistic, that’s being pessimistic

[shell badge]

Having played enough Wargames, you don't need alternating activations to make the game more balanced or fun. You just need to WRITE THE RULES BETTER.

[plucky kite]

A realist would say “I don’t have enough info to know if they are removing stuff”

[fast shell]

Place your bets boys, what do you think is gonna get culled

[carmine jackal]

I heard Salamanders don't make it to 3.0

[dim jungle]

Of course, im not trying to doomsay. I'm just... already mentally prepared to be gutted again.

[swift harness]

Don't worry, DA is beloved by GW too, I am sure you guys will still get absurd weapons as you did last time

[fast shell]

I'm think they're gonna finally remove all loyalists from the game

Make the game actually good as a result

[plucky kite]

Again you are setting yourself up for disappointment, that’s just in general not a healthy outlook

i get that GW can be a massive asshole and remove stuff people like, but always expectin that to happen will just make you constantly bummed out

[swift harness]

I really wonder what they'll do with the Scars ruleset, they really dropped the ball in HH2. Sure, they were too good in one, but Jeez this edition's version was "Highschooler who quickly rushed something 1 hour before homework was due"

Thankfully bikes were still workable and Mazan was absurdly powerful (and probably not tested LOL)....but besides thar

[tropic linden]

How do you know lol

[dim jungle]

I do have faith in 2W outriders

Scars need those badly

[plucky kite]

morale will not improve until we are blessed with 2W outriders

[fast shell]

WS table gets changed back and ebon keshig become good again

[plucky kite]

tartaros terminators are getting removed due to and i quote "not being egg enough"

[stoic fulcrum]

I don't exactly think it's going to be a full rewrite

It just invalidates the Solar Aux and Mechanicum releases of the year

[swift harness]

*something something:

1. battle-hardened 1 on all bikes
2. Make sure our Shamsheers do something. Why does our unique wargear bike only give a 2+??.... And can only be taken by units that come standard with Artificer....
3. Fucking fix anti-grav. It's bullshit I can fly over any terrain but not move or charge over models

[stoic fulcrum]

I also feel like it would be easier to leak rules as opposed to a full box, surely we would have some concrete evidence that it is a rewrite by not

[fast shell]

Rules aren't very flashy

[dim jungle]

Not sure, you can leak a box with 20 seconds alone with it

[stoic fulcrum]

The box itself only had existing templates and other game pieces of what is visible on the box.

[plucky kite]

you see you gotta open the box to see rules

[fast shell]

And require you to like open up the box and know enough about the rules to know what's changed

[plucky kite]

cant see the rules if theres no box

[swift harness]

Oh, and I am eternally seething that Khan has a lower weaponskill than that goober Bob the Builder Rogal Dorn

[stoic fulcrum]

That box that leaked is on sale on fb marketplace

[plucky kite]

same goddamn braincells lmao

[stoic fulcrum]

So idk, seems like we would know if the rules were completely rewritten.

[fast shell]

Holy shit Ross they made power armor a 3+ save, what a let down. Nerfed marines so badly

[plucky kite]

artificer armour is now gone due to and i quote "being used up to make more eggs"

[swift harness]

Like, I don't know who wrote Mongols this edition, but I do know I would have a few choice words to say to them. Cause they clearly didn't bug-fix or test it

[wicked coral]

It's an educated guess thiugh because very often those who like alternating activation argue more or less by a Variante of "I find it boring having to watch the enemy doing their turn/ Lots of people doesn't pay attention to my turn but look st their Smartphones or doing other things." My conclusion why that is is because they cannot pay attention for the enemy turn. Hence my statement. I on the other hand enjoy commanding an army. I do see the benefits for reactions though not because it makes the enemy turn more exciting for me but to give me tools to make good decisions and actually play more towards my success. Having said that return fire is the exact opposite to that because it is almost every tome a no brainer and I hope dearly that they have changed that.

[fast shell]

Hmmm so all egg themed units are better this edition. Drop pod assault meta confirmed?

[plucky kite]

no, those are gone due to being used for more eggs

[swift harness]

I would argue for it on principle of combatting Alpha strike builds (every IF list ever)

[stoic fulcrum]

This is not a hobby specific problem, but a modern universal social one.

[fast shell]

Ross come one that doesn't make any sense

How do you use an egg to make an egg?

[crisp aurora]

Can you link to the post?

[stoic fulcrum]

Most of us, are in fact, looking at our phones right now in between other activites to say random things in a discord.

[plucky kite]

egg

[stoic fulcrum]

Possibly even in the middle of dare I say, games of Horus Heresy.

OJO

[plucky kite]

im currently waiting for my teacher to give in my code work

[swift harness]

Granted, 9/10 times that is for looking up interactions that GW didn't define

At least in my games

[stoic fulcrum]

OJO"

[wicked coral]

My take so fsr is that I think they just went through the rules with a pumpgun and killed off all stupid mistakes and replaced I with better rules.

[plucky kite]

see thats an optimist

[wicked coral]

Great example why reactions are good.

[stoic fulcrum]

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

[swift harness]

Better rules and fixes is what I want to see most

[stoic fulcrum]

Know what I am saying.

[wicked coral]

Absolutely.

[swift harness]

*could be good if written well

[plucky kite]

no i spaced out

[stoic fulcrum]

I would have too. Turning in coding homework, unbelievable. Who does that.

[wicked coral]

Damnit you got me

[plucky kite]

i mean it isnt homework, its a lab project

[swift harness]

Also, some leveling between faction reactions is needed. Some do very much of anything and some unique one's close to break the game in half

[plucky kite]

but yeah i have to physically tell my teacher about the code, why? fuck i know but whatever

[wicked coral]

In order to get out of a house we must first go inside

[dim jungle]

You are not kidding

[wicked coral]

Yeah absolutely

[dim jungle]

The differance between Spite of the gorgon and fucking Angels of death is Night and Day

[swift harness]

It do be that 5th Legion geneseed

[swift harness]

Or that in 90% of cases, the IF rule is just a straight upgrade of the UM one

[plucky kite]

i hope they are chaging em, remember guys if they dont change much about the ruleset it means the problems that 2.0 had could still be in 3.0 lol

[drifting arch]

Oh piss off my day was going fine I didn’t need to get reminded of that /j

Still insane to me.

[wicked coral]

Maybe that is all fixed by removing both all together 😉

[dim jungle]

I'd actually take that

Atleast i can charge the fuckers again

[plucky kite]

reactions could unironically get removed

[wicked coral]

One rumor showed up a couple of times was that we won't see Rite of War anymore.

[swift harness]

Alpha Legion reaction? Incredible. White Scars reaction? Incredible. Thousand Sons and Salamanders reaction? Wtf where they thinking?

[dim jungle]

The sally reaction is actually excellent

[drifting arch]

The Khan went against Mortarion, Daemon Mortarion, Horus and survived that. Dorn killed an extra-chromosomed version of Alpharius Omegon and … that’s it ?

[dim jungle]

But yes, some are quite dog

[swift harness]

Maybe you need to build around it then. Cause when I've had it used against me I was not exactly impressed

[plucky kite]

i mean dorn fought fulgrim too

[spark bay]

Nice try fed boi

[drifting arch]

Fulgrim got bored and left. Not even coping but I genuinely believed he could’ve killed Dorn if he wanted to.

He regenerated all his wounds by flicking his hair lol

[swift harness]

Because of Brutal 2, Khan has a decent chance of losing to Lorgar (if he doesn't roll bad on to hit). That alone is a crime

[drifting arch]

Not trying to downplay Dorn btw. But the Khan is one of the duelist Primarchs, with an actual track record of fighting his brothers and either killing em or getting a draw. Dorn is not stronger in melee than the Khan. No way.

[dim jungle]

I've been wondering how yall could possibly rank Kharn higher than a primarch. Reading comprehension fail.

[wicked coral]

Wait let me check

[swift harness]

Dorn is the quintessential B-tier fighter.

Top 6 is unquestionably: The Lion, Leman, Sanguinius, Curze, Fulgrim and Khan

[tropic linden]

Lmao 😂

[dim jungle]

Horus Lupercal?

[drifting arch]

He’s off category

[dim jungle]

Fair

[swift harness]

Horus is above average, but not an amazing duelist. He's more of an overall Commander

[wicked coral]

Thousand Sons Reaction is awesome

[tropic linden]

Love how i get called fed as soon as i ask something slightly too deep

[drifting arch]

Above average before the Heresy, literal reality warper by the end of it

[swift harness]

Ye but it's mostly warp powers and swinging around a mace (a good mace admittedly, but still)

He's not a duelist Heavyweight as some of his brothers are

[dim jungle]

Also, as much as i love Lion, he really only has feats against Curze to his name, and it's not consistent. I don't know where he is in the Top 6 but it's low.

[drifting arch]

Pre-Heresy, and based on the way the 1v1 with Horus went before the latter popped his warp powers, Sanguinius > Horus imo

[wicked coral]

Gecko reaction can be nuclear for the charging unit

[drifting arch]

Like, Sangui was winning, Horus literally had to « reach through the eight dimension » to hit him midair

[wicked coral]

Little bit too much of a situational obe

[swift harness]

The Lion is good in duels as far as I can tell. Really good duelist, but his commanding skills are pretty ass.

Sure, he is tactically brilliant, but the lad cannot fucking communicate

[dim jungle]

He cannot. Atleast not consistantly. He suffers from poor writing

[drifting arch]

He has feats against Leman, although one of em is skewed by Leman dropping his stance once he realised the fight was pointless and then getting knocked out by Lion as a result

[dim jungle]

I think it's just the one feat, and im not sure we can count a brawl

[drifting arch]

And old!Lion has one against Daemon Angron

[dim jungle]

Yea, Modern Lion boosts his rankings. But he did have the shield then, and it carried

[swift harness]

Leman, also an amazing duelist. Has the Tactical ability of a drunk penguin tho

[drifting arch]

I could be tripping but I swear Russ also lost a more « regular » fight against him

In either one of their Primarch books, specifically ?

[dim jungle]

It's not in Lion's atleast, i've not read Russ's

[swift harness]

He listened to charisma and social skills podcasts/webinars for 10k years in the bowels of the Rock

[drifting arch]

Someone once summed up Lion & Leman as « Russ is a man pretending to be a monster, the Lion’s a monster pretending to be a man »

It does ignore some nuance with both of those but I still like that quote

[dim jungle]

That's pretty much on the money until the events on caliban.

He's certainly more a savage than russ

[swift harness]

I would call it like this: (no offense btw)

Lion: autistic Savant with a giant sword
Leman: Viking surfer guy with major ADHD

[drifting arch]

Yeah even at his worst Russ didn’t murder one of his own sons (hello Nemiel)

Own sons and oldest friend actually bcs I’m pretty sure Nemiel was buds with the Lion back on Caliban as kids

[dim jungle]

That was completely out of character and it pisses me off. Lion would never have done that.

[stuck bay]

I still think that was pretty out of character for lion

[drifting arch]

I agree with both of you.

Nemiel of all people ? Bffr

[dim jungle]

And what a waste of a character

Anyway pertinent to 3.0, i hope they fix his stasis grenades.

A piece of unique primarch wargear, and it can be ignored by a simple Initiative test.

Which anything he wants to fight would pass 5/6 times

[stoic fulcrum]

True

[stoic fulcrum]

I thought the Lion's bit is that he is autistic or not socially developed.

Ala raised by beasts or whatever

[dim jungle]

Sometimes that’s true. Other times he’s as charismatic and insightful as any other primarch.

He’s written inconsistently

[stuck oyster]

So what are the odds all off pdf are gone?

[dim jungle]

Medium high? They wont delete the pdfs

[stoic fulcrum]

The primarchs should never have been written about directly

[dim jungle]

But may not update them

[grave falcon]

Could we not wander wildly off topic and get the rumours threads shut down again please?

[stuck oyster]

No mars, no casts, no indonml

[dense spear]

Lion is a monster pretending to be a man, Russ is a man pretending to be a monster

[stoic fulcrum]

Same for the Emperor and Malcador

Leave them as mythological abstractions.

[stuck oyster]

If they adds new stats they’re not usable then

[loud fractal]

depressingly high
my big concern right now is that even non pdf isn't safe from "no longer has a reason to exist"
like, mortalis destroyers' entire thing is "they can bring two disintegrators" because all their other options are hot garbage
and now other units can take them in sufficient enough mass to justify "two sets of disintegrators" in the new launch box
what's the point of mortalis destroyers then

[dim jungle]

I doubt the actual structure of a unit profile will change. They didnt from 1.0 to 2.0

[loud fractal]

what are movement values

[swift harness]

What are the termies with disintegrators and stuff again?

those could go as well

[tropic linden]

Nullificators

[azure zinc]

Since aparently box contents arent for discussion about box, here

[stoic fulcrum]

This is what people are citing as "3rd edition"

[stuck oyster]

Idk I am worried

[stoic fulcrum]

That E looks like an F

[stuck oyster]

Most of my army is in the pdf

[whole pumice]

That absolutely says it

[dense spear]

Mostly see if they squat any units especially with the slowness of releases for core plastics

[swift harness]

So, dooming aside chat. What are the most likely things we'll see from "HH3"?

I realize that that would be speculating, but keeping it on topic

[azure zinc]

Hopefully fix to challenge being downside for characters

[dim jungle]

Challenges would be my big ticket. Also snap shot shooting reactions please.

[stoic fulcrum]

I see third something handbook

[quasi phoenix]

third edition hardback rulebook

[azure zinc]

And something to make vehicles more... possible to use when compared to other gunplatform options like infantry, dreads and speeders

[swift harness]

I am hoping that, if they change things: Weaponskill table back to HH1, the snapshot on shooting reactions and better sprinkling/wording of keywords. Brutal distribution, anti-grav that can now move over models and charge over em etc

[azure zinc]

Issue with antigrav moving over is ill remind you how WS charges were described in siege. Grav repulsors literally grinding legioners under them

Unleess its made to do hammer of wrath kinda atack over models you fly over

Regardless if its friend or enemy. That would be hot

[swift harness]

• The HHS need a pointshike and should lose acces to augury scanner
• The leviathan needs a small points bump to 250 base
• Contemptor, nerf of 40 pts base AND down 2 wounds. It's stupid at 175 with only 1 Wound less than a
  Levi
• Raise the hull points of all vehicles by 1?

[loud fractal]

i am expecting then to fuck up the FOC somehow, but i don't have specifics

[drifting arch]

Huh ?

[swift harness]

And I'll tell you this. In the current ruleset, your bikes can move over any kind of terrain, but not other models. they have huge bases etc, so moving a bike army around is like play traffic warden in London City central

[azure zinc]

Id remove explosion autokilling vehicles. That really should be enough (from design standpoijt, then numbers fixes for guns obv)

[drifting arch]

Levi at 350 ?

It’s 240 atm

[swift harness]

Oh wait, that was supposed to be 250 nvm

typo

[whole pumice]

Points are meaningless until we have the full rules

[drifting arch]

I’d argue it doesn’t even need the bump since it’s hard limited by its 24 inch range

[dim jungle]

Dreads might be vehicles again for all we know

[drifting arch]

Gross.

[swift harness]

If they are.......that would make them unplayable, like in HH1

[whole pumice]

Vehicles might be good for all we know

[azure zinc]

Id rather vehicles not be vehicles But I also only evercplayed custodes and cheeky demons

[swift harness]

True, but going off of what the are now. Still, a Contemptor should not have almost the same amount of HP as a Levi, a 2+ and 5++, multi damage weapons in melee and cost half of a Levi

That is plain dumb

[dense spear]

Isnt it mathematically easier to kill a warhound than a leviathan with lascannons or something silly?

[azure zinc]

Isnt contemptor winning slapfest with imperial knight or smth

[dense spear]

WS5 vs 4 and 5++ vs no save, just a guess that it does

HH1 WS chart would help maybe

[swift harness]

The big thing with the contemptor is that besides it being T7, it costs you 175 for a WS5 dread, with good amount of attacks, Brutal 3 melee weapon at base and 6 wounds. That's ridiculous

2+ and 5++ are big factors too

[drifting arch]

The PFist is insane for what it does lol

Literally comes as default

[tropic linden]

Levi dosent need a nerf

[tawdry kiln]

I actually want a hybridisation. Make it so the to hit/get hit values don't all change at the same time. For example WS4 gets hit by WS5 on 3s, but only hits on 5s Vs WS6+

[swift harness]

Only a slight one. It's a very very strong unit....but also at a decent price. small change should be fine here. the Contemptor is the aggregious one

[fading swift]

Brutal just needs to apply after saves

Then it's not such an auto take

[manic locust]

Has anything leaked since the two pictures?

[glossy yoke]

New rulebook means two new Libers for the Astartes which is a bit of a nightmare considering the ones we all have currently are at minimum only three years old.

[keen karma]

So how disastrous are the new edition changes?

[glossy yoke]

While I am excited for the new mini releases, I can't help but feel that puts a sting in the tail

[glossy yoke]

No one knows, everything currently is speculation and rumour

[dim jungle]

We know nothing about rules, or format

[wicked coral]

Could be, could not be.

[wicked coral]

Exactly

[tropic linden]

@spark bay when it being previewed?

[spark bay]

Dunno, James is not happy though. Maybe something today and more on Thursday.

[glossy yoke]

True, new units have recieved PDF rules before so it's not completely off the board

[spark bay]

Lots of reminders of ndas going out stuff like that

[tropic linden]

Ooooh yea

[spark bay]

That 399 hour countdown is / was almost certainly a countdown to the replacement reveal after the Dallas show got pulled

[fading swift]

I wonder why it's been pushed back so much?

[low pawn]

To give Pinkertons time to work

[spark bay]

My Dallas speculation is they wanted the reveal show to be pure 30k but Dallas is more of a mixed event so didn't want backlash of no 40k only 30k

[normal garnet]

Equal participation trophy

[spark bay]

Remember that show last year were no 40k was previewed and it was like October? They don't want a a repeat of the backlash from that

[low pawn]

I remember the shitfit 40k players threw when fulgrim transfigured was revealed

[normal garnet]

No devil like a wargamer scorned

[wicked coral]

Or the libers are still viable in the new edition

[glossy yoke]

Here's hoping, I do not want the potential to lose the Emperor's Children legion bonuses or advanced reaction

[low pawn]

I don't know if they'd confine their flagship models to pdf

[wicked coral]

I would assume to loose both. Or at least be prepared that they shale up a lot like they did in 2ed.

[glossy yoke]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-dog-staring-at-sun-cute-dog-dog-closed-eyes-dog-staring-at-sunset-gif-10310895250239531072

Man

[swift harness]

Perhaps, but that is not how it works rn

[swift harness]

Yeah, really not happy with the apparent length of an edition. There is a reason I pretty much stopped playing 40k

[swift harness]

Sadge, AL is perfect as they are

WS do need changes tho, so weirdly of two minds on this

[glossy yoke]

Likewise

I adore the stability of Heresy so it would sadden me slightly to see it be dragged into the release cycle of the flagship games

[swift harness]

Like, I don't mind having a cycle, but 3 years is too fast. For Heresy I would rather see something like 5

[glossy yoke]

This raises a curious idea though. Has Heresy done so well financially they're gambling with raising it up to that level?

[glossy yoke]

Honestly it may have been foolish but I was hoping it would last as long as 1.0. 2.0 just rocks

[wicked coral]

The 2ed is so poorly written that it only works with the FAQ. That alone could be reason enough to put a fast 3ed out there

[swift harness]

Maybe, from what I hear, Heresy has FAR outstripped their expectations. Should have been a writing on the wall that people are getting tired of the over streamlining of 40k, not to mention loss of flavour.

From what I can see, it was really hard to find, even basic plastic kits. Always out of stock. Like, even the most basic shit like a Rhino

[swift harness]

2.0 is very neato.....if flawes

[leaden marsh]

You can forward messages from other channels and servers

[carmine jackal]

> Small points bump
> 25% increase

[swift harness]

Flawed. I have QUITE a bit to say about some Legion rules and the clusterfuck that is reactions

[swift harness]

I meant to say: 250 there, my bad🤣

[marble basalt]

Question for you Mr. 4d6, have you heard anything on the removal of brutal?

[glossy yoke]

For sure I feel. Everytime I go into a store or even a third party it's hard to find exactly what I am after, and the Heresy shelf always looks like it's been picked clean by vultures lol

[swift harness]

Yup. Only Marine tanks are left....well, and Mech/Sol Aux

[glossy yoke]

Possibly. So you're thinking somewhere in the ball park of a rewritten and tidier version of the current rulebook?

[glossy yoke]

For sure, 2.0 can certainly be improved. One need only look at the current state of the Thousand Sons

[dim jungle]

I think they’d need to do more than some tidying up to sell people a £30 book

There will changes even if just to justify the purchase

[carmine jackal]

That's a points cut?

[glossy yoke]

Good point

[carmine jackal]

That's been one of the longest lived rumours

https://tenor.com/view/milhosue-milhouse-milhouse8ball-gif-27260687

[marble basalt]

Interesting I wonder if weapon profiles will be rewritten again/ contemptors brought in line

[swift harness]

Thousand Sons, the non-synergy mess that is the White Scars ruleset. Raven Guard, who have incredibly strong special units, but their Legion rules are almost inconsequential. Same with Sallies up to a point.

Imperial Fists that are extremely overtuned

Etc etc

[glossy yoke]

Why would brutal be removed do you know? It feels like the only way to deal with things like dreads, and one of the constant praises I hear for 30k is how lethal it is. Feel like they'd be shooting themselves in the foot.

[swift harness]

The lethality can be good. The fact that most tanks are almost all bad is not a good thing tho

Dreads are very strong and the Contemptor is grossly overtuned and undercosted

[normal garnet]

cough cough the WS hit chart cough cough

[swift harness]

Yep, that too.

[small steeple]

If they actually make Saturnine terminators before Tartaros Praetors I'll be mad

[swift harness]

Well....they did

[small steeple]

We could've had MKIV boxnoughts

[low pawn]

Reactions are a very welcomed addition to the game
I'm finally not just walking away from the table during my opponent's turn
The main issue is that people just play the game like 1.0 and consider them an afterthought rather than incorporate them in the plan from the start

[swift harness]

I'll do ya one better. They also made a Saturnine Praetor

[twilit carbon]

maybe
just maybe
word bearers can get an actual legion trait in 3.0

[low pawn]

Most legion praetors are tartaros
And there has been the tartaros praetor tribune

[fading swift]

Lol no

[carmine jackal]

It is known to have a considerable negative effect on player experience

[twilit carbon]

this truly was the "take a battleshock test" of 30k

[swift harness]

Let me be clear, I am not against them on principle. I am against the execution.

It is incredibly stupid that you have situations where heavy shooting units refuse to shoot at eachother, because return fire would ensure mutual destruction

[fading swift]

You will have a leadership trait that does little to nothing and you will like it

[low pawn]

You clearly haven't put up your WB against night lords lol

[carmine jackal]

With soem armies getting it in spades (marines) and the rest basrely getting it at all

[swift harness]

Isn't Dark Brethren your Legion trait?🤣

[fading swift]

Soem

[river vector]

Brutal is gone cos people can now spam ID disintegrators think about it

[carmine jackal]

Could be worse, you could be Sallies

[low pawn]

I'm not arguing they're perfect but I'm enjoying the game more with flawed reactions than I enjoyed the game with no reactions

[carmine jackal]

Not helpful

[twilit carbon]

[swift harness]

Wouldn't exactly say "spades". Dread melee weapons, Thunder Hammers, the Typhon cannon and some named unique melee weapons... that's it.

[loud fractal]

"thunder hammers" which... some marines can get in spades

[wicked coral]

Yeah that is what I want to believe. Like they did von 6th to 7th edition 40k if you sere born then already

[normal garnet]

Sil saux has the Battle cannons I Guess?

[carmine jackal]

Up until BFBG, Solars could take one hammer on a single model unit that was also 0-1, and only S3 to boot

[swift harness]

The movement one's are totally okay and fun. But return fire, had, before the FAQ ruined quite a few games. Some I've heard about and some I've seen myself.

#TheHorusColdHeresy

[glossy yoke]

Yeah that was around when I got into the hobby serious

[carmine jackal]

Marines can take a hammer on any terminator in the army, HQs, vet sergeants, techmarines, etc

Mech have brutal on a single weapon full stop

[swift harness]

On Legion terms with WS4, sure. Same with HQ's, beyond that, it's a crap shoot.

And not even all terms (Legion) have acces to hammers

[loud fractal]

important to also note the presence of elite terminators like firedrakes that can have 10 hammers in a slot, which many of the legions don't even have an equivalent to, let alone non legion factions

[normal garnet]

The Knight gauntlet doesn't have it

[carmine jackal]

Either way, Brutal was and never has been a fun rule to play in to

[normal garnet]

Which is weird ngl

[swift harness]

Not arguing that Mech have it less, but spades is not what it is

[glossy yoke]

So it's less the problem of brutal itself but more so with how well dispered it is throughout an army, making some more able to react to common units like terminators and dreadnaughts better than others?

[carmine jackal]

We can argue back and forth all you want, but the bottom line is that the feedback on Brutal is overwhelmingly negative

Be it the interaction with instant death, how one-sided it makes combat, or how it can be used by mooks to beat up primarchs, people generally don't like it

[swift harness]

It is.

Just like how it's weird that some Primarch weapons have it and some not (Vulkan anyone?). Thunder Hammers have it, not power Fists. And finally, why is it not given to Mech and artillery from Sol Aux/Militia

[strange pelican]

You guys looking forward to relearning rules?

[carmine jackal]

It was added realtively late in the playtesting sequence

Phase 3 playtest didn't have brutal
Phase 5 did

[low pawn]

There's always been a way to counter it, pinning is extremely widespread
And to be frank I've very much enjoyed having to pick the order of my shooting and targets for maximum effect rather than point the biggest gun at the biggest threat
It's not perfect but it adds another layer I really like

[marble basalt]

I wonder if we'll see hammers with concussive again

[swift harness]

Wrong, I never even argued brutal was good. I never said that.

It's a catch 22 now to destroy multiwound things and you have to take or you lose literally any melee combat of any significance ever

[wicked coral]

See what I meant earlier @plucky kite or @dim jungle ? Nobody left the table where I played 1ed unless they went to pee or get some drinks but some fellas really can't watch someone make their move and that's one of the reasons they introduced reactions. Or made them bigger because reactions were alway part of the game in a way.

[swift harness]

I only said it wasn't in spades

[swift harness]

The fact that there is counterplay available, does not mean something is not problematic

[stoic fulcrum]

I think the instant death Threshold on melee.should be reworked

[wicked coral]

Absolutely

[stoic fulcrum]

Like strength of melee weapons should be balanced around multi wound melee having to be resolved by single wounding attacks

[wicked coral]

Ah see, that is what is going on right now. Hopefully 😎

[fading swift]

Just make it apply after saves. It's really that simple.

[stoic fulcrum]

Like how ranged weapons have been rebalanced around not insta gibbing marines with high str ap shots

[carmine jackal]

Tomato tomato, there's no point sitting here needling at each other

Someone asked a question, I replied, you decided to split hairs over my answer, w/e

Either way

Consensus from the data gathered: brutal bad

[river vector]

Either way let’s hope someone leaks the rules soon

[carmine jackal]

How are they going to balance stuff: I can't say

[stoic fulcrum]

They could do a lot by introducing compelling reasons to find synergy by nerffing the optimal weapon profiles

[swift harness]

Nerf Dreadnaught and Landspeeder wounds + remove brutal. There, fixes the whole thing.

Maybe keep it for Primarch weapons exclusively and some Knight weapons or something, dunno. But it has to go on the Contemptor and Thunder Hammers

[normal garnet]

With

[stoic fulcrum]

Suddenly rad grenades is relatively more powerful with doubling out is less.accessible

[tropic linden]

Would you say the edition is more balanced than 2nd

[wicked coral]

I'd add-> way too many units got more than one wound in 2ed which is also bad. Units should all be one wound, small HQ characters should have 2 or three and the big Omaes should have 4

[swift harness]

The Contemptor having 7 wounds is stupid beyond all belief

[normal garnet]

WS chart, please use the tow WS chart

[whole pumice]

I think we should alll keep in mind that any change that we like or dislike in a silo is almost meaningless without having the entire ruleset in front of us

[swift harness]

Vets and terms having 2 wounds is fine. Dreads having 7-8 isn't

[low pawn]

I watch subway runner gameplay during my opponent's turn

[wicked coral]

The chart is not the problem, having WS5 on a bazillion units is

[glossy yoke]

How does that one work in comparison to the 30k one?

[marble basalt]

Don't Contemptors have 6?

[normal garnet]

Its a bit (much) more tame for the lower Guy

[wicked coral]

Dreads have 6 to begin with and I disagree on terminators or other units. One wound is fine because massed AP2 isn't a thing anymore

[swift harness]

I could have sworn it was 7, regardless tho. Even 6 is far too many

[glossy yoke]

https://tenor.com/view/morgan-freeman-true-seal-gif-8993121496866626214

[marble basalt]

If brutal is gone I could see it going to 4 or 5

[cold lagoon]

Well, with a new influx of disintegrator weapons...

[carmine jackal]

I mean, if termies go down to 1W each, they just get shot to shit by small arms fire without a survivability increase

[normal garnet]

https://tow.whfb.app/the-combat-phase/roll-to-hit-combat

[tropic linden]

Dreads always have 1 less wound then toughness

[swift harness]

It isn't? I am not so sure of that. HSS with las sure seems like massed AP1-2 to me.

Suzerain axes and Hammers massed is also all AP2

[glossy yoke]

Idk, I kinda like my terminators not getting plinked off by stray bolter fire

[swift harness]

Every table I've played at, I've seen ample AP2

[wicked coral]

https://tenor.com/view/the-sopranos-this-guy-silvio-dante-vito-vito-spatafore-gif-24638091

[glossy yoke]

This is a bit strange to me. Can I get your perspective on what you like about this one?

[carmine jackal]

Incorrect, the Telemon is T8 with W8

And the Mhara Gal is T7 with W8

[carmine jackal]

Makes WS5 less of a defensive buff and mroe of an offensive one

Also has no capacity for reducing combat to hitting on 6s because of a WS gap

Downside is WS5 hit's everything WS5 or above on 4s, which is silly

[wicked coral]

Compared to 1ed I was talking about its nothing, yes

[normal garnet]

WS in tow is mostly offensive ye

[swift harness]

The current problem is that dedicated melee units with WS4 are almost all incredibly bad. Because the other dedicated melee they will meet is all WS5. Meaning they have -1 to hit against the opposition, while said opposition has +1 to hit against the WS4 guys

[carmine jackal]

It shouldn't be as easy for a veteran to hit another veteran as for one of them to hit The Lion, or Fulgrim

[wicked coral]

Sonce lascannons are ID all those 2 wound units it isn't helpful either

[normal garnet]

S and T are the real determina TS if suviveabiliyy

[glossy yoke]

I think I am still struggling to grasp it. Doesn't that make melee a bit stale with everything on WS5 plus just hitting on 4s?

[carmine jackal]

Idk, you eveer played against dark furies?

They're majority WS4 and probably the best special melee unit in the game

[violet nova]

Kill non dedicated melee with your WS4 guys and shoot the super good WS5 guys with plasma and melta and volkites until they die.

[swift harness]

That's why I said almost. Local Raven Guard player is my main training partner

[wicked coral]

They never were. Those cases were it happen were overexaggerated to no end

[carmine jackal]

Still a very sweeping statement to make

[swift harness]

Not in my experience

Outside of edgecases. WS4 melee get's destroyed by WS5

[glossy yoke]

With how massed you can take bolters and small arms nowadays I feel that they'd still be a bit flimsy personally.

[wicked coral]

This. The problem isn't the chart it is the abundance of units with WS5

[carmine jackal]

The issue isn't that there are too many WS5 units (only one I might remove is veterans)

The issue is that everyone knows WS5 is really good so they don't take that many non-WS5 melee units because they get kicked around

[tropic linden]

Dreads that arent weird.

Contemptor, deredeo and leviathan

[glossy yoke]

Honestly I am kinda happy with the current WS chart as botched as it is. Makes the models feel powerful and strong where they're supposed to

[wicked coral]

My despoilers doing absolutely fine and have WS4 as well. It's probable more an skill issue than anything else wlse

[carmine jackal]

https://tenor.com/view/tell-it-girl-speak-the-truth-person-human-clothing-apparel-gif-9852711493864193636

[swift harness]

Despo's with a Chaplain are fine. Weight of dice. Not a skill issue really

Take, say, a WS4 Terminator unit and let it fight a dedicated WS5 unit.....and see how well that goes

[normal garnet]

The tow chart feels good when playing It, halfing your succesful attacks is still far from bad

[swift harness]

It's a big reason why you never see Legion standard terminators. Everyone takes special Legion one's and Command Squads...for that WS5

[normal garnet]

The value of +1 WS is too inflated compared to any other start ye

[carmine jackal]

I mean you absolutely do see them in Pride of the Legion

[swift harness]

That's one place where you do see them, but that has more to do with them having line. Not for any prowess in melee.

[glossy yoke]

Ye, my buddy is running like 30 of them in his list lmao

[swift harness]

You never see a non-Pride rite, like...dunno, Recon Comp for instance taking a standard Tartaros squad.

Because there is no reason to

[stoic fulcrum]

Watch out Gorgoff, Ross doesn't care about what you have to say.

OJO

[carmine jackal]

I wish someone would tell Bokuja I don't really care what he has to say either, dude is just naysaying for no good reason

[stoic fulcrum]

Hey we are all friends here. All slacking off at school, or work ok.

[carmine jackal]

Very true

[stoic fulcrum]

Allies joined by circumstance

[plucky kite]

i mean the setting is a civil war

[stoic fulcrum]

But Ross is turning in his homework, so -1 street cred for him.

[swift harness]

Math is not a good reason, check.

[plucky kite]

im already done tho?

[swift harness]

But yes, ordered by the Emperor Warmaster

[stoic fulcrum]

Probably drinking a soy latte while waiting.

[plucky kite]

im back at home playing doom dark ages

[stoic fulcrum]

Just kidding

[cold lagoon]

I think just one shift to the right would be fine. So 4 hits 5 on 4+, but 6 on 5+ eventually higher ws on 6+.
I like having 2+ and 6+ on the table. The classic 40 ws table that only goes from 3+ to 5+ needed more variation

[plucky kite]

fun game.

[glossy yoke]

I can get behind this

[normal garnet]

Same

Lets also hope they drop the WS on dreads, WS 7 always seemed silly for a bunkering robot

[fading swift]

...they are ws 5

[willow belfry]

The highest WS on a dread is 6, which is on the Custodes dreads (and they’ve always been WS6)

[normal garnet]

I need a coffe

[willow belfry]

Don’t we all

[fading swift]

Honestlyim tempted to pick up another 10 interceptors and combign 20 of them with this set

[rustic ingot]

Wonder where these saturnine terminators will fit in an army list. What role they'll play relative to tartaros or cataphracts.

[willow belfry]

I would assume even heavier than cataphractii, but probably slower and more ranged firepower to make up for the slowness

[rustic ingot]

I kinda hope they're basically heavy wep termis. 3+ save, slow as Christmas gun line units.

[willow belfry]

I hope you dont mean a 3+ armor save lol

[rustic ingot]

Maybe even take lascannons away from heavy squads and make them a termi option. Sub in some kind of nerfed version for normal Marines.

[plucky kite]

i would reckon their fists should be stronger than normal power fists

[rustic ingot]

I do. There's nothing wrong with a 3+ on a unit with the right constraints. It's just math.

The problem is when you can abuse their board positioning to exploit it too much.

[whole pumice]

My guess is similar to the heavy support squad myrmidons

[low pawn]

What does abusing the positioning look like?

[willow belfry]

Hopefully not as obnoxious as myrmidons lol

[rustic ingot]

I'd say something like "not useful in the same way as huscarls." So no deep strike, make them less melee oriented so you're not trying to tie people up with them. Just guns you can reliably keep around a few turns.

I personally want HSS to see a nerf. I don't like that 10 lascannons are the obvious best choice for so many scenarios. Remove that and sub in something with different army building decisions.

If lascannon squads took an elite slot suddenly the choices are different. Putting them on termies would make it more interesting.

But I'm sure I'm completely wrong and these will end up something completely different.

[low pawn]

Cap the unit to 5 I say

[rustic ingot]

Troops shouldn't be able to out gun a land raider

[stoic fulcrum]

Saturnine termies will probably be insane with pride is our armor and in disgrace all are equal

If they are 3 wound stock

Behold, the praetor sergeants

[willow belfry]

I mean, assuming that all stays the same

Side note, I know that a lot of people aren't a fan of the 3 year cycle (I'm generally not either), but I am excited to see what GW does with this opportunity. It's a chance to come up with new stuff in the rules, and sometimes you get some really interesting/fun changes or additions

[vagrant finch]

(Also worth keeping in mind we'll know for certain if we're on a proper three year cycle in 2028, if 4E materialises).

[stoic fulcrum]

Yes, my statement does in fact presuppose that the referenced rules stay the same.

[willow belfry]

Of course for all we know this could be like a 8e > 9e transition where old books remain useable until their replacement book is released

[fresh turret]

I think its safe to assume Heresy is on the 3 year cycle considering 2.0 is being replaced after 3 years. I doubt GW came to the understanding that they did a poor job and decided to resolve the issues before comitting to a 6 year game

[low pawn]

Seems that AOS and 40k are back on 5 years
I'm hoping 4th takes a while

[fresh turret]

What makes you think that?

[wicked coral]

Last time I fielded a blob of Cataphractii lead by Golg against Custodes they did incredible fine. I still find your statement that "almost all WS4 close combat units are incredible bad" preposterous. They doing dine for what their job is. They obviously doing bad against the best close combat fighters in the galaxy but I think that is rightly so

[wicked coral]

Oh you think Blackshield rules will still viable in 3ed?

[river vector]

I’d imagine they carry solerites since they are carrying disintegrators and exotic plasma

[low pawn]

Same rumors that said 3rd was coming
Or pure hopium
I'd be inclined to believe it after 10th and skaventide proved unpopular
3rd Ed HH makes a bit of sense now if it's true that it gw wasn't prepared for how popular 2nd was

[near rock]

So did this guy end up buying the box lol?

[swift harness]

I should have clarified that I am assuming Thunder Hammer vs Thunder Hammer in this case, as that was the original point. My bad

[near rock]

I get it was over priced but I would donate him cash to buy it and take photos of sprues and shit lol

[visual nest]

Probably an influencer trying to flip it maybe?

[low pawn]

A GW lawyer came out of his monitor and decapitated him

[swift harness]

I've pitted some of my "fairly borrowed" WS5 terms into vanilla ones quite a few times now. Last time was against Death Guard. The difference in damage output was quite significant....even when we accounted for dice variance

[wicked coral]

Very special case yes. But that isn't what is happening ingames. Look, MEQs (marine equivalent) bully MEQs, TEQs (terminator...) bully MEQs and shoot units fight TEQs. Generally speaking of course.

[near rock]

I think the one photo showed 2 copies so I would guess someone in the logistics side

[spring wing]

I want a few things to happen this edition

But the rules being in logical places and not written as long. Usr's being in alphabetical order
And having a good index for the books is top of the list i think haha

[swift harness]

Normally I would say yes, but almost everyone I encounter myself runs hammers on their terms. Fully kitted into hammers or somewhere in the middle.

It's been a long time since I've seen a termie unit that didn't have any sense of hammers (outside of some special legion termies like Delivs or Ceno's)

But, I do concede I should have more readily mentioned that

[wicked coral]

Yeah you mentioned that you gaming group basically is lost in tournament mode

[sleek escarp]

There are so many fake rumors that said 3rd was coming none of the correct ones said stuff about other games. Also if AoS and 40K were as unpopular as you think wouldn't that mean they would want to stay on 3 year to move on to the next edition to try and fix them?

[swift harness]

Mostly ye.

[willow belfry]

Skaventide and 10th proved unpopular? Ive been seeing the opposite

AoS got a surge in players with 4th, and 10th is still going strong despite the complaints

[sleek escarp]

Ya people here just love to assume they share the opinions of the greater community

[swift harness]

My armies are generally pretty strong as well, having said that. I do limit myself on the lore front. -> Alpha Legion: Lots of tacs, few dreads etc, yes it does things, but that's also how you tend to see them in the lore. Same reason I don't run or own any dreads for my Scars

[sleek escarp]

10th has been very popular and AoS is in a rougher spot but has a new season coming looking to make good changes and sold very well regardless

[swift harness]

Admittedly, a lot of people entered warhammer the last few years, between covid and the rise of lore youtube

[wicked coral]

Great, buy those boxes I say so that we can keep going on Horus Heresy

[sleek escarp]

I mean there is a big zone between hyper casual narrative and tournament mode that people don't seem to understand

[stoic fulcrum]

I dont know, but i am skeptical that it's a full rewrite

[willow belfry]

I guess we shall find out in 388 (?) hours

[stoic fulcrum]

Auxilla and mechanicum just released and I don't think HH is at a point yet where they would invalidate rules they just released from an efficiency standpoint.

Like 40k? Sure, tail end edition codex is fucked

But it's also like 70% of their profit

People will just buy the next book

In a game with 5 factions, it took years for a legit expansion for auxilla and mechanicum

[sleek escarp]

Not really, they don't index every edition in 40K I'm not sure why people keep saying that

[swift harness]

That is also part of it. My two armies are both narrative to the max....kinda. But I've also build them in a way that they are very capable of dishing out quite the proverbial punch

[stoic fulcrum]

It has been true in the past

[willow belfry]

People still have 9e world eaters and imperial guard burned into their minds

[swift harness]

It depends on what you do within the army strength vs lore box

[willow belfry]

Also side note, narrative vs tournament isnt particularly on topic for this thread

[stoic fulcrum]

Also, if your frame of reference is less than 5 years in the hobby, all you know is the modern release cycle/cadence.

[swift harness]

Ye that is true, back to 3rd

[stoic fulcrum]

Lots of nuanced elements in play here

[cold lagoon]

They got models, but their rules are also basically the same age as the marines

[swift harness]

Ye, I don't see Aux and Mech espescially going anywhere. Same for Talons. Militia and Daemons is a giant question mark however. I hope not of course and doesn't seem very likely to remove such a core aspect of the HH lore....but who knows

Remind me, did Daemons and Militia get a full book again, or is it still pdf's?

[rich briar]

PDFs

Closest Militia got to book related stuff is the fact that overseer consuls can take militia squads or solar auxilia riflemen

[grave falcon]

The lack of rules releases recently implies there will be at least some significant change to profiles or army lists

[dense spear]

Mostly its going to be if they legacy some units they dont plan to plastic vs keep everything to not make people mad

[river vector]

Took some time for us to get legacy units so I’d expect the same for 3E

[grave falcon]

Im hoping they wont plan to just leave the game unplayable for half the factions again though, that was a dick move

[river vector]

True true

[tropic linden]

Can we not doom post. Tis already been said that all old books will carry over like a 8th to 9th change

[swift harness]

Have they said this?

[humble bolt]

Look so long as they fix the factions that need fixing and fix stuff like flyers and make the psyker stuff maybe a bit more of an actual choice and not "pick Telepathy" etc and fix certain interactions that have no rules currently I'm fine

[rich briar]

I mean we can also just stick to playing 2.0 until they release the new stuff, or just port the rules over temporarily worst case

[humble bolt]

And maybe tone down some reactions like interceptor

Or make it less easy to get army wide

[river vector]

I remember rumors initially mentioned a new stat but we’ll see

[rich briar]

Honestly, reworking objective control and maybe adding an objective control stat like 40k or having different units have set objective control like legions imperialis

Not the worst thing

[willow belfry]

Personally, please no to objective control

[tropic linden]

Ew no

[willow belfry]

Every time GW has tried that recently, it hasn't worked to equally incentivize people to take both troops and elites

[swift harness]

I understand the sentiment, but rather not. Would severly diminish rites of war

[willow belfry]

After all, why care about beating the enemy's OC with troops when you can just murder them in melee with elite units

[grave falcon]

A stat seems like a more granular verion of the line rule essentially

[swift harness]

"Can't score point when unit dead", afterall

[willow belfry]

Exactly

[tropic linden]

Line just makes the game make sense

[grave falcon]

Line could work if it was strictly limited to troops units and rare exceptions from other sections, never granted by RoW

[rich briar]

"a marine has their toe on an objective and now you can't hold it" is stupid, idc whether they add OC or keep line but I hate this type of situation so much

[willow belfry]

Oh ya Im not going to claim that the current system is perfect, but I'd rather keep the current and modify it than scrap it and go with something else

[rich briar]

That's fair

[rich briar]

I guess more of what I want is to stop this more than I want like an entire overhaul

[willow belfry]

There are definitely ways in which the line system can improve

[grave falcon]

Like, you can take a specialist army but you now suck at objective control is much better than what we currently have

[rich briar]

But there was meantion of a new stat so OC seems like a likely candidate, but I have 0 basis for that claim, just seems like something they'd do

[grave falcon]

Which is that sometimes, but some specialist armies just get minimal downsides lol

[willow belfry]

OC would probably be the easiest stat to introduce ya

Though iirc the new stat idea only came from one rumor and hasn't been mentioned by others, so I'm less inclined to believe it

[grave falcon]

Bring back the essentially pointless mental stats!

[rich briar]

Hypothetically speaking, if they were to add a new stat (and it wasn't OC)

[rich briar]

Necromunda time!

[grave falcon]

I as thinking that even necromunda struggled to make them meaningful 😄

[rich briar]

Yep...

4+ Will characteristic on my cawdor redemptionist

[willow belfry]

Willpower. A new stat only used for psychic stuff

And then they gut psychic powers even more so the new stat will remain useless

[rich briar]

4+ is a ridiculously good will to have, but it's absolutely useless on my cawdor leader 😢

[grave falcon]

Until you kiss a stealer 😉

[rich briar]

I have not kissed a stealer yet, but now that I am made aware of that, I will try to kiss one now

[loud fractal]

some of them are meaningful in necromunda but it really depends on who you're playing as and what style of play

as a whole though, yeah, kind of "whatever" compared to the physical stats

[stoic fulcrum]

Systems balancing isn't something GW can feasibly accomplish. There is too much tension in the product.

Even if they remove all of legacies, moving away from core 7th/2.0 with a overhaul just moves us that far away from a balanced system.

An update is more likely to be balanced than a rewrite.

[willow belfry]

Moving away from the 7e design also defeats the point of having AoD be a separate system from 40k

[stoic fulcrum]

Beyond that, HH and 40k have never been internally balanced. Give me 15+ years of slow refinement to a single system over a new system anyway.

There are too many cons for it to be a rewrite.

Also, the book has the exact same art style, lettering, font, composition of the cover. It's only a different model being showcased. It's not even internally consistent with their own product development pipeline. 1.0-2.0 was a huge asethetic shift.

7th-8th had a similar aesthetic shift

[brittle gorge]

It being the same art style and packaging says to me that it’s an update pass rather than a ground-up revision.