It's a dirty job but someone (else) has got to do it [AL+Mil 3k]

[ripe snow]

Hi y all, this is something I've been kicking around for a while - please help me break the back of this list, as I can't quite get it to be what I want and fit into 3k.

What I'm going for is Alpha Legion shenanigans, with some expendable (from the AL's perspective, anyway) melee punch. The general army fluff is a core cadre of your classic AL mischief makers who could be on anyone's side (and indeed have probably got so many plans within plans within plans that they're not even sure who's side they're actually on) - which gives me a nice rationale to flip flop from Traitor to Loyalist from game to game.

List building generally I like to take as much of the Legion specials as possible, and to have a lot of variety - I see this as very on-brand for the Alpha Legion, who to my mind would have no idealogical dogma or qualms about using anything to achieve their goals; hence the allied Militia and the Daemons.

So this is the list as I have it at the moment, and I need a bit of advice from experienced hands:

Total: 3054 points
Allegiance: Traitor

Primary Detachment - Alpha Legion [2130Pts]
Rite of War: Headhunter Leviathal (AL)

HQ [260Pts]
Praetor [130Pts] - MC weapon
Esoterist [145Pts] - archaeotech pistol, force axe, psychic hood

Elites [675Pts]
5x Effrits [210Pts] - melta bombs, daggers, venom spheres on the sarge
5x Lernaeans [290Pts] - conversion beamer, dagger and chainfist on the sarge
4x Daemon Brutes [175Pts] - rapturous sensation

Troops [740Pts]
5x Headhunters [155Pts] - multi melta, artificer on the sarge
5x Headhunters [155Pts] - multi melta, artificer on the sarge
5x Recons [120Pts] - nuncio, melta bombs
5x Recons [155Pts] - nuncio, nemesis bolters
5x Recons [155Pts] - nuncio, nemesis bolters

Fast Attack [455Pts]
2x Javelins [210Pts] - Lascannons + MM
5x Sky-Hunters [245Pts]: culverins and serpentas, nuncio, artificer and venom spheres on the sarge

Allied Detachment - Militia [914Pts]

Provenances: Feral Warriors, Ogryn Conscripts

HQ [220Pts]
Force Commander [220Pts]:
Power armour, iron halo, Cyber-familiar
5x command Cadre, nuncio, standard

Elites [40Pts]
Medicae Detachment [40Pts]:

Troops [554Pts]
5x Ogryns [277Pts] - Chainaxes, Boarding Shields, carapace armour, thunder hammer on the sarge

Fast Attack [100Pts]
2x Cargo-8 Hauler - Smoke Launchers

Would really appreciate any general advice, but am am wondering about these things in particular:

• the Praetor bothers me as I'm not quite sure what I'm doing with him. I probably need to invest a bit more in him but points are already too tight. Plus I keep coming back to the conclusion that Dynat seems like such insanely good value that I ought to be taking him. I mean, I don't want to, as I'd rather have my own guy, but still...
• especially don't know what to take as a Warlord Trait. Master of Lies and Hydran Excursor both seem good, but neither seems to be an obvious choice for this list. Maybe throw him on a jetbikes and roll with the Skyhunters with Excursor?
• wondering if a Harbinger + attendants would be a better investment than just Brutes? Bit more expensive but I have the HQ slot and then I could biomancy them up...
• I haven't actually fit in a Rewards of Treachery unit in here, so I feel like I'm missing a trick there...
• ...and relatedly, I don't feel like I've got any big guns in here, it all feels a bit bitty. Should I be consolidating into fewer, bigger units?
• what would be a good RoT choice? I'm thinking something shooty like Tyrants, Fulmentaris or Sunkillers.
• have I got sufficient anti infantry with the melee stuff, and therefore should the bikes be melta not Volkite?
• are the Cargo-8s a good idea for the Ogryn goon squads or are they just gonna get plinked T1? (relatedly, do Boarding Shields make them Heavy, or is that just Astartes?)

[rich bloom]

-you cannot go wrong with just a thunderhammer on a praetor. Maybe a gun, depending what you wanna do with him. And if you just wanna get a rite of war pick a delegates instead
-Esoterists only allow for troops and elits, so harbinger would be out anyway.
-Tyrants are probably the best ranged reward of treachery, so you could go with a squad of tzem
-and cargo 8's are generally not a good pick for ogryns, since they cannot disembark and charge, so you'd be stick for a turn. Boarding shields do turn ogryns into heavy units. And maybe ditch the command cadre. They don't add much, if anything. Instead maybe add a cheap squad of grenadiers for some backline objective holding.

[ripe snow]

Thanks!

• I'd love to do more with the Praetor, but to do so I'd need him to have someone to roll around with, and that really jacks the price up, so maybe the Delegatus is the way to go (someone else suggested that in the AL area too)
• Thanks for the heads up on the daemon selection, I hadn't noticed that. Brutes it is!
• I'll see if I can make room for Tyrants points-wise. What elevates them above sunkillers for you? Is it the survivability or the fact they can move about (or both)? I do keep looking at the BS5, precision shot, discount lascannons and sighing...
• will re-configure that Mil detachment in light of what you've said. The command cadre was really just to be ablative wounds without taking up a Force Org slot, but I have a troop spot to spare so I can shimmy that around

[rich bloom]

It's a simple matter of pts, really. If you don't know what to do, or where to put a praetor, then maybe just skip him and go with a delegatus. You will not feel bad for just having him in the back, supporting some squads with his warlord trait and pinging some enemies with a nemesis bolter.
-mostly the fact that lascannon HSS are just super oppressive, and sun killers are like those, but diled up to eleven. Tyrants are at least terminators, have a larger footprint, cost more and don't spam str9 ap 2 shots for days, which is my reasoning mostly. And because they look awesome.
-put the medic and force commander into the ogryn blob, and use spare points to either add a vanquisher russ or some grenadiers. Infantry squads of you wanna be special.

[ripe snow]

Ah so it's just a sporting conduct thing with the Sunkillers - roger that. I kinda fancied the Termis anyway, as I've got the pieces to kitbash my own together.

I was leaning towards the Fulmentaris, as I figured it'd be very Alpha Legion to nick something off the Ultramarines and parade it in their face. I feel like they've been toned down enough to make them reasonable now? That being said, I can just convert up the models and use them as whichever takes my fancy (it's Cataphractii with roof missiles in either iteration)

With the Ogryns, I didn't think the company commander could go into them - I'd misread the provision and thought it was only the medicae and discipline masters that could. Good plan - thanks!

Hey, given the wording of the provenance, does that mean you could put a mounted Force Commander in with them and give them Scout? 😈

[half fiber]

I wouldn't take the Archaeotech pistol on the Esoterist. He has a good shooting attack already.

I wouldn't take venom spheres on the Effrit. Shotguns and/or additional Wail attempts are a lot better value propositions. Same with Sky Hunter Sergeant.

Why the Nuncios on recons? Auguries make sense to me, not as much Nuncios.

I wouldnt take Serpentas on the Sky hunters. going from a bolt pistol to a serpenta is an extra shot and a strength bump. for 5 points on a 35 point model that seems like not the best deal to me. Given you are losing the advantage of 45" range and stuck at 10" to make use of it seems like wasted points. At that point I'd sooner take hand flamers and get a gazillion hits at slightly closer range or stick with bolt pistols.

If your Master of the Legion has nothing to do, delegatus or not, consider where he goes. Excursor at least will buff a squad so think about who could use him. might be useful to establish a strong threat. If youre doing the redeploy one then he's just a weapon carrier.

Maybe the Esoterist getting on a bike makes sense to allow for summoning after a quick move AND to help line up his shooting attack with the bike culverins which are effective on mostly the same targets. might even be able to charge weaker squads if hes in there.

[rich bloom]

You could easily build them in an alpha legion look, and try both , fulmentarus and tyrants, to see what works best. Tyrants are more versatile, due to having krak and flak missiles and melee weapons, but fulmentarus are better at engaging termis and dreadnaughts due to breaching rockets.

Sadly infantry models (Ogryns) can only be joined by other infantry or primarchs. But the thinking was in the right place.

You could just write up a new list, and maybe we can find something to fill it up.

And Warlord trait wise, is it all up to you really. The alpha legion traits seems really good at buffing units and playing with your enemies head. MAster of lies would probably be my pick if you dont have any hard plan, since redeploying troops is always good.
And Hydran Excursor is good if you wanna buff one unit in particuliar... Like rocket armed terminators XD
In the later case could you also go with stoic defender, to give said terminators pinning on their shooting attacks