SOL is a at a bad place rn: Issues and Ideas

[magic trellis]

Had a few games with Lucker and Fresh today. Sol is strongly handicapped against centauri:

• Infantry not leaving barracks (see bug rep.)
• Harvesters: Try to get up the side with no ramp, or ramp too high -> Please introduce access to both ramps again. at least one steep and normal one?
• Refineries: Sol cannot unload balterium from the side of the refinery but Centauri can! -> Whether remove mini silos on Sol refinery or introduce some barrier on Centauri refinery
• Harverster has issues to unload when driving Harv on ref. platform and leaving the harv as commander (see bug rep.)
• **Centauri Rocket Truck is too strong: **Long artillery with very high damage kills first SOL expansion HQ buildings easy. Barely anything to counter that. Cent rocket truck can take out barracks almost with one load. Barrage truck needs multiple loads. -> reduce damage/range of rocket truck. Some examples: Rocket truck vs barracks: (https://youtu.be/c293g3AgfHs) and barrage truck vs barracks (https://youtu.be/V-2-fyS-j9w?si=UZf5XiO-14h4Da6w&t=511 and https://youtu.be/V-2-fyS-j9w?si=aijqxGhbZqEYGZoV&t=430). Rocket truck blasting away fresh build HQ 10min into the game (https://youtu.be/-oxwK1YAm5Q?si=dY62xRvKXKZLDB-6&t=693)
• Aiming of siege tank feels off: The arced shot of the siege tank gives some significat disadvantage in terms of aiming. it is more likely to hit something with straight shots
• Barrage truck comes short while aiming (https://youtu.be/V-2-fyS-j9w?si=XAOBmvTeZh2As1SX&t=455)
• SOL buildings are much bigger than Centauri buildings -> bigger build radius might be mediocre solution. Back to city building (plus destructable buildings) would be cool (imo). HQ expansion style feels a bit boring as rts player tbh
• Juggernaut: Juggernaut rocket launcher fits more to SOl than Cent. Issue with Jugg. is that it can shot and hide and it is hard to figure out where the shot came from as fps player -> add visible smoke trail or something to the rocket shot
• slow bomber drop rate

[cinder elbow]

what if the rocket truck missiles got a hitbox u can shoot em down like the freighter-bomb

[magic trellis]

oh, you actually can shot down the freighter bomb? Anyways the rocket truck is crazy, because 10min in game it can make 1km+ shots on your expansion HQ while hiding behind a dune.

[cinder elbow]

they do feel really op when a player is driving it you can eyeball target anything u can see in the distance but so can a rail tank.

[placid lintel]

Tbh the barrage tank may need a buff

Just because currently i haven't found a ton of use cases for it where other units don't work better

[cinder elbow]

with a large carpetbom attack it seems best vs swarms maybe its more a anti alien unit.

[placid lintel]

Which i suppose makes sense

Although it leaves sol a bit more vulnerable against artillery in hvh where there aren't really swarms

[magic trellis]

surprisingly I found a good use against crimsons in short range:

https://youtu.be/-oxwK1YAm5Q?si=-Y3A0v34IMmKHxnq&t=1693

[placid lintel]

Interesting

Honestly i think it just needs a range increase

It is literally an artillery unit after all

[magic trellis]

yeah. the long reload feels sometimes also painful. Maybe the rocket truck needs a longer reload time as well

true, but it doesnt feels like an arty unit

[placid lintel]

That i think could work

[placid lintel]

Exactly

Or are you talking more unit design and feel

[magic trellis]

I like the unit design of the Barrage truck a lot, also the idea of it. But its ingame performance feels inconsistent. Probably needs some adjustment. As mentioned, it feels more effective in shorter range but maybe due to aiming and/or ranging issues.

[rigid cipher]

Honestly I think all aiming is off for everything.

Nothing seems to go where the indicator is pointing at the moment, whether it's the bomb-view for air or the aim compensation for tanks, it's all busted.

[barren raft]

barrage truck needs to be cheaper, rocket truck should maybe go up a tier

albiet i kinda feel like rocket truck needs to get tracking vs Colossus and defilers

[magic trellis]

also the barrage truck might need that. Rocket truck is one of my favorite agains Colo.

Hmm, I see that also the shots of the rocket truck fall short. I assume that it aims towards the centroid of the building which is underground:
https://youtu.be/-oxwK1YAm5Q?si=N0V2yr7M6exIwkQY&t=822

[barren raft]

as a colo user yes do try hitting me with rocket trucks you wont land a single rocket

[barren raft]

ive seen this too i think your right

[barren raft]

this is why i think the rocket truck needs tracking, because its the only centauri vehicle with the reasonable ability to hit a mooving colossus

youd be better served attacking colos with templars

[magic trellis]

maybe at least air to air tracking but less damage.

[barren raft]

it is the colo though, like it doesnt need tracking against anything but the colo and defiler, any other air unit is gunna be vulnerable to flak trucks

bombers are pretty weak to Flak and railgun tanks.

[peak crescent]

Maybe make the barrage truck have a hovering body like the railgun tank for better mobility? idk I know nothing about game balancing

[rotund hare]

give sol rocket guidance to follow crosshair.

sorry for "paint" art xD

[barren raft]

Pick up paint.net
It's free better Paint, it's what I've been using

[modern plover]

Thanks for the feedback all, this really helps. I'm fixing the Centauri tank controller how it oversteers etc. Almost done. Once the primary issues are fixed so that the disbalance is more about numbers, not about technical issues, a general rebalance is for sure needed.

[heady mantle]

I think what could help with the hq expansion a lot is if it was tied to like a radar and instead of always needing a unit in the area for line of sight you can ping the map with the radar and it makes thee fog of war go away then you slap down that next hq

dram increasing the vision to the build radius was one big step in making it better

now its just gotta be more ease of placing those next hqs without it being so one sided in some cases just from losing a scout that got killed early

rocket trucks can come out later in the game really with later tech as well

but also the bottom right corner of whisper is harder to expand out of

[heady mantle]

also random thought maybe makinng outpost can help extend range of initial hqs or up to 2kms

[placid lintel]

that used to be the case

it was replaced with the current system to differentiate aliens and humans more

the current system is much better imo

[magic trellis]

I miss the city building 😅

[modern plover]

Can do this with a mod 😄

[heady mantle]

im actually better at com with hq radius but prob more the fact theres just a shit ton of eco

those were some crazy times tho

[magic trellis]

the city build expansion is more sophisticated (together with the lower resources)

[magic trellis]

Man, just had a match on Whipsering Plains again. I dont like commanding SOL at all. Refineries having the ramp on the wrong side, so Harversters needs to drive huge turnarounds to get resources. Harvester dont stay on the refinery to unload (when commander controlled). Rocket trucks from Centauri deny you first expansion shooting the HQ from 1.5km distance Just sitting there helpless is pure frustration. It feels having a 50% handicap from the start. Cent harvesters can use most of the case both sides to enter/exit the refinery

[placid lintel]

I think rocket trucks are a big part of the problem

artillery is a good anti-siege tool but when they can just obliterate your entire base from outside visual range with virtually no counter that's frustrating as hell

artillery isn't really necessary until late game so honestly I think they should probably get a tech requirement increase

[rigid cipher]

I think swapping the tech requirements with the pulse tank for sol and whatever the Centauri equivalent is(flame tank?) would make sense.

As they are anti-light weapons very useful in early game which are both pretty ineffective lategame whereas artillery is too effective early game but loses its effectiveness when air units come into play as they can then be sniped by skilled players or using hit and run tactics.

[placid lintel]

Agreed, i think that could definitely kill 2 birds with one stone balance-wise

[modern plover]

That sounds unpleasant indeed 😕 Swapping tech does make sense. @spice merlin can you please ticket this to me? For next update, major.

[thorny kelp]

there is also a new problem, with the building placement fix (very happy for most buildings!) where it cuts of one or both of the refinery, and that totally messes AI up. maybe make it clearer when a side will be cut off, and the ramps longer or steeper, so they won't be cut off as fast?

[thorny kelp]

have to agree on this one. just had a match where we were clearly at an advantage mid-game, but as soon as the rocket trucks came out, our buildings dropped like flies. they can shoot from very far behind cover, and reach HQ's and big buildings, it's very hard to coördinate counters against them. you can't send AI and players often don't realize it's going on, even if the commander tries to communicate it.

the barrage truck isn't anywhere near the rocket truck btw. i'd nerf the rocket truck to where the barrage truck is, it's usefull but only in a good position. not across map

[rigid cipher]

The issue is that the refinery favours building a ramp on the side with the highest elevation because that's closer to the level of the depositing platform, which makes sense.

Unfortunately, it's usually the side with lower elevation (flatter ground) which has the resources, so it leads to the ramp being spawned on the opposite side VERY often.

[barren raft]

Barrage truck isn't as strong so swapping with the pulse tank makes less sense i would rather just have the swap for centauri

Pyro tank and pulse truck need some buffs

[rigid cipher]

I know the barrage truck isn't currently as strong, it excels at just nuking something 200-600m away rather than cross-map building snipes, and it could do with a bit of a buff to its ranged capabilities.

[placid lintel]

I think pyro tank needs better survivability and pulse truck needs a more competent unit AI

[magic trellis]

would be cool if the pulse truck would have a temporary shield.

[placid lintel]

agreed, this would also be dope

[barren raft]

Pulse truck could use a Shield but for a more short term solution id go with a Speed buff

Barrage truck too

Barrage truck doesn't need to do crazy damage it can just kite enemies.

[placid lintel]

I feel like that could be very micro intensive as a commander and could lead to some serious cheese as an FPS player

I honestly think the range and DPS need to be equalized a bit between the sol and centauri artillery and then just have them both fit similar roles, and once they are on the same level they can be differentiated more from there but that acts as a good baseline power level

because im all for faction assymetry but giving only one faction long range artillery seems like a recipe for very messy balancing

[thorny kelp]

yeah both to 750m so buff barrage and nerf rocket truck would help. this also brings rocket truck into realistic counter-range of tanks and railtanks while still having an advantage. 1800M for the rocket truck is just silly.

[barren raft]

i mean one faction has a sniper tank

[placid lintel]

thats fair, although I think the key difference is that artillery is dedicated anti-building

and with structure decay that makes it that much more punishing

[barren raft]

like make barrage truck cheaper as well, so you can make 2 of them for every 1 rocket tank

cause thing A is just as good as thing B is just direct balancing, and thats boring

[placid lintel]

I agree that its boring but I think artillery is complex enough that the easist way to go about this is to make them 1 to 1 and then diverge from there

[thorny kelp]

if that would be the case, i'd be able to live with a bit of range diff

not triple the range tho 🥲

[placid lintel]

yeah you would have to have some range equalization regardless

[barren raft]

oh yeah it should probably still get some buffs beyond that but just like, its a cheaper shoot and scoot option vs the Centauri High damage but less mobile option

nerf rocket truck speed

[thorny kelp]

Barrage truck more spread but same range? that way it's more effective closer range, but can still do SOME damage at same far range as rocket truck?

[placid lintel]

now this I definitely like

[barren raft]

idk what the range of Barrage tank is

ill collect the stats soon TM

[thorny kelp]

tested it and couldn't hit a tank at 650M so I guess 600M

[placid lintel]

honestly I think the barrage truck should be used as the ideal base artillery unit for balancing purposes

[barren raft]

i use the broadside of a refinery as my testing criteria

[placid lintel]

maybe with a bit more DPS if it gets the tech increase

[barren raft]

max range =/= effective range

[placid lintel]

yes, although if they are too different that opens a whole can of worms for AI programming

[barren raft]

that said i dont normally cough up human unit range stats and thats a deliberate choic

yes you can shoot at 2km, probably better if you dont try to game that out.

[placid lintel]

I think thats really one of the most difficult parts of the RTS-FPS hybrid thing

[barren raft]

exactly

by leaving mystery in human unit ranges its a sublte encouragement to not abuse that advantage

[placid lintel]

I do think that it needs to be limited as much as possible with the indirect fire artillery however

[barren raft]

Sniper has 3km of range, its not to anyones benefit that you would try to use that information

[placid lintel]

and by as much as possible I mean abusable range not range in general

[placid lintel]

and I think thats really the biggest thing is that the rail tank needs to have limited effectiveness against buildings

because the mechanic is most abusable when you have large immobile structures taking considerable damage from beyond visual range

I haven't tested rail tank against buildings since the structure health update, but at least pre-update the rail tank did little enough damage against buildings that it wasn't cost effective to use them like that

[thorny kelp]

It's quite the opposite. people are curious, will test, and WILL take advantage of ANY advantage they can have. anyone who finds out that a rocket truck has 1800M range will try to get into as far as a position as possible to snipe stuff... there was a thing where players asked to ping HQ, and started shooting with a railtank, asking COMM if they're doing damage. so they were shooting out of SIGHT range aswell, still killing the other HQ (personally remember matches on naraka that had this with shooting across that huge canyon.)

[placid lintel]

I disagree that its the opposite

by leaving it unknown then you minimize the number of people who abuse it, as opposed to having it be a known aspect of the meta

where almost everyone abuses it

[thorny kelp]

ok, since railtanks accuracy has been altered, wich is good. it's still a snipe tank but shooting out of range like that isn't possible anymore. however, shooting at 1km+ at the tip of an HQ is still possible, and i have seen it multiple times. it's too easy to 'snipe' an HQ and the other team can't find you, or get to you in time...

[thorny kelp]

if it's not possible, it's not possible, if it is possible, it's only a matter of time before it becomes meta. small amount of players start it, but after a while the players abusing it will grow exponentionally.

[placid lintel]

true, but not making it known limits the speed of that happening

[thorny kelp]

the larger your player base, the faster stuff like this comes out. especially these days with youtubers analyzing and exposing stuff.

[placid lintel]

and the issue is with making it not possible in a way that still feels like silica

[barren raft]

Yes they will try to use any advantage they can, removing the fun from the game. My point is id rather not help them do that. If a player fights at a shorter range than is possible because I witheld my number then that is a net gain for the game

If you aren't close enough then you don't do any damage, and so no harm.

[rigid cipher]

It already moves at a crawl and has to drive sideways up anything bigger than an anthill or it loses all momentum and stalls 😂

All units should be faster and have more torque, but should have less HP to compensate

[thorny kelp]

game speed 1.2 i'm telling you. this also increases DPS so it feels like everything has less HP. okay everything will have to be retweaked, but 1.2 feels much more natural for some reason. with the setting right now it feels like the air is oil

[barren raft]

Speed is 10 m/s aka its as fast as a Scout

Old stats though

[placid lintel]

This is definitely just a personal preference but i like the current slower pace of the game

As an FPS player and in RTS