Making the radar station and outposts more useful

[exotic flax]

Once the human build area changes are made it would be nice to see some more interesting gameplay changes around how the radar station works.

I have an idea for this I'd like to put forward.

Radar station level 1:(default when you first build it)
5% increase in unit vision distance(but not over terrain)
10% increase in building vision distance(works over terrain)
Allows the construction of a single outpost within X distance of the human main base
Has its own tech of 4 upgrades costing 1000 each(the same as the base building cost)

Level 2(Available at tech 2):
10% unit vision
20% building vision
A second outpost

Level 3(Available at tech 4):
15% unit vision
30% building vision
A third outpost

Level 4(Available at tech 6):
20% unit vision
40% building vision
A fourth outpost

Level 5(Max level)(Available at tech 8):
25% unit vision
50% building vision
A fifth outpost

Outposts:

• Build distance from human base increases by 25% per level so that the fifth level outpost can be twice as far as the first level
• Make these a selectable spawn point again for humans
• Outposts level with radar station
• Level 1 outposts have no defenses
• Level 2-5 outposts have 1-4 turret slots respectively
• Turrets must be built separately with their normal costs
• Turrets can be built anywhere in a small area around the outpost
• If the outpost is killed before the turrets they become inactive after 30 seconds unless/until the outpost is rebuilt in the exact same location
• If humans can no longer hold the area they can build a new outpost elsewhere but would have to buy new turrets

I think it's fair to give humans some dedicated strong points around the map after the building reduction outside of having to set up a full new productive base with the MCV(or however this mechanic is finalised).

It will also avoid these buildings becoming too strong/influential too fast in the game with needing higher tech to have multiple defensive emplacements, and will avoid human aggressive turret spam like we see currently.

And this will also make the radar building more interesting than something you slap down 5 minutes into the game and then never think about again, as well as repurposing outposts after the base changes since they will no longer be used to expand all over the map like they are now.

This is sort of a combination of a few different ideas multiple people have had over the past few months since the base changes were announced, and it may need some tweaking, but I think it would mostly work well.

@tribal geyser

[exotic flax]

I was thinking with Dram's plans to make the build area static.

So the red line being build area, second line being default vision area for any buildings on the edge of the zone and then each further ring being an upgrade to the radar station.

Bear in mind I did this on mobile, so those rings are absolutely not accurate 10% increases:

Yeah so lategame it might look like this with you only being able to build in the red areas once your MCV deploys.

So no sprawling metropolis like we have now, just two distinct smallish bases:

Again, just a rough mock-up because I'm on my phone and can't really accurately work out scale.

It also means if you build a second base close to your first base you sacrifice map vision because your vision areas will start to overlap.

However the risk of building a base further away for more vision is obviously that it's easier for the enemy to take it out.

[fluid turtle]

See I'm hoping Sol gets a big 2 way teleport and you could build the recieving teleport pad on an outpost, it would make a cool replacement for a heavy vehicle transport.

Also radar should be important to support powers.

[twin crown]

https://discord.com/channels/824561906277810187/1285443220247154771 YESSUR

[exotic flax]

Yes, those likely won't be implemented until around 1.0 or even after, but any commander features should definitely also tie in with the radar station, and I think maybe even having a 5th upgrade here that jumps from 1k to 10k or something to unlock orbital laser or drop pods or whatever space to ground ability gets implemented would be cool.

[mighty sentinel]

I just want to know what active scanning is supposed to be, cause the radar was supposed to get it but never did and I'm not I remember what active scanning was supposed to be

[exotic flax]

A temporary reveal of fog of war similar to Terran scan in SC2 could be alright

[versed marsh]

Here i agree with radar station stuff (its useless) but outpost should just imo be a preset to quick train (for com) or spawn as infantry on (for FPS)

[exotic flax]

What do you mean by preset to quick train?

[foggy seal]

I like the idea of fixing turrets to outposts. gives extra steps so you can't really spam turrets around, but still are free to build up a nice defensive base over time.

[exotic flax]

I think it gives humans a good way to slightly bolster an area without allowing them the dominating map presence they have with turrets currently.

And reinstating outposts as a spawn point seems like a good fixed way to keep a little map control once the base changes happen and the teleport system is reworked.

[mighty sentinel]

With the forced centralization of human bases I'm hoping that outposts are kept as a way for humans to have their own FOBs to compete with the aliens.

I would still like to see some sort of bastion style structure be built. Something more durable than an outpost that you build on a front line where lots of fighting is going on

[exotic flax]

Well this would be independent of human personal economy buildings.

So the commander could place an outpost and some turrets and then the infantry can build sandbags, MG emplacements, sniper nest, etc. to fortify the position.

Obviously need to wait on what the Devs decide for personal economy though.

I'd also support outposts getting a HP increase if the amount you can build is restricted, as right now one scorpion can kill an outpost in about 20 seconds.

[mighty sentinel]

if an Outpost is to serve as front line building then definitely

could also do 2 different types of outposts. 1 is more frontier oriented for just keeping an eye on a key region. the other is a hardened bastion/small fortress that can take a beating from enemy fire

[exotic flax]

That'd be cool, being able to choose from a recon or fort outpost

[mighty sentinel]

I also argue that a vehicle spawner should be in the Outpost.

For FPS players only, obviously

Would be one heck of a surprise though for the crab thinking he can run inside and start killing the outpost from the interior and spawn kill the humans. Meanwhile the tank gun greets the crab with a...

https://tenor.com/view/supplies-surprise-gif-27509150

well Discord censored it but we all know what it means lol

[fluid turtle]

eh, very light vehicles, would not want to see tanks rolling out.

[mighty sentinel]

I wouldnt go any bigger than what can reasonably fit, but all LVF vehicles fit, although HAC is def pushing the limits of what can fit

[foggy seal]

yeah it would be a nice addition to mobility, since crossing maps is very slow and tedious with most bigger ground vehicles and infantry rn

[fluid turtle]

i had a bunch of thoughts for the outpost in one of my own threads just wanted to drop it here, the Outpost would have several variants useable in different areas, and mining outpost would be very helpful when long distance mining becomes a thing

[foggy seal]

with the teleport systems everywhere, it would only make sense to me that you can skip the part where you need to send stuff into teleporters, to teleport into outposts and go further from there. So what I mean is you should be able to "build" units and vehicles from outposts, but it will queue units from your existing factories, and instantly spawn them inside that outpost from there. it would get units wherever you want them just a bit faster than when you micro them around. its also less repetitive micro for comm then.

[foggy seal]

this sounds perfect. also with outposts not expanding the buildable base it would be very nice. I'd rather see MCV's for that. so you got extra steps to go out for more resources

[foggy seal]

idk about mining outposts. rather see the outposts exactly as described, purely for supporting combat at the front. MCV's for extra resource spots would be desireable. then you can put outposts to defend said mcv and additional refinery

[fluid turtle]

outposts aren't really there for defensive value, they MCV will be a very expensive thing, if players are building more than 1 or 2, then Dram will have to nerf them hard, rift basin 1 MCV should let you cover half the map, on Naraka, you might be able to hold the eastern plateau with 3 but then you'd be stuck. again if they can build more after that then you just have the reemergence of the old metropolizing issue

and the original thread that comes from came from my worries about MCVs not being limiting enough, tbh i while ive come around somewhat, im still more cautiously optimistic and would be quite happy if Sol didnt get MCVs at all

[foggy seal]

yeah I'd just give MCV's a way smaller buildable area than actual HQ's

so you could place maybe 3 buildings there, and that's it. like refinery, barracks, vehicle fac.

it would take the highest level of tech (8? ) to build the MCV, then it will cost like 9000 I thought? build time + then travel time (risk of destruction) to said place, placement, extra structure placement, and all units that were necessary to defend it along the way

I think it will make sure for some cool tactical battles. there is more than enough time for the other comm to try and counter said expansion that way

It will be a big investment for sure, where for the same value you might be able to do an attack on the enemy instead. this servers for tactical decision variance imho

[junior python]

I don’t like how the giant static early warning radar facility makes my eyes see crabs harder.

[fluid turtle]

well ya see when you look through the radar, you see the crab's hard on so yeah totally makes sense 🤣

[foggy seal]

you see the what now? 👀

[junior python]

Take away the dish and rename it all source intelligence center to make echo friendly.

[mighty sentinel]

lmao dropping buildings from orbit is literally Starhawk

but building upgrades for the Outpost would be cool

I have some trouble seeing how a mining mining outpost would function but if a mechanism could be developted then that wouldnt be so bad

[fluid turtle]

like the default outpost would have an empty pad on the side, if you left enough room that is, for mining outpost it would create a spot for dropping off resources, particularly for the dropships, if you went with teleport upgrade that same spot is where the teleporter would go

the harvester fills up its storage in roughly 45 seconds, vast majority of the time the harvester takes to harvest is just getting there, so dropships would actually need to be really fast to support them, shrinking the distance they need to travel would be one way to do that

[versed marsh]

(autocorrect fail) i meant set them to be made there or teleport there.

[mighty sentinel]

If such an outpost was created I think a special model with a helipad and silo attachment would be easiest, unless Harvesters are also supposed to interact with it

[foggy seal]

idk I don't like stuff that does multiple things at once. then just make one building that does everything and spam that across map.

outposts fill role of defense/vision/transport. that's more than enough tbh

keep harvesting for refineries etc

[mighty sentinel]

Well my thought is to have different kinds of outposts that specialize at different stuff

Golanx wants a basic outpost that upgrades to a specialized role

Either way idc but I don't think anyone is wanting an outpost to do everything

[jade yew]

I like the idea tbh, I really want humans to be more centralized, at least Sol specifically.

[exotic flax]

@crimson meteor

[exotic flax]

Ok now the human build area changes have dropped some of this is obsolete 😅

Anything usable for you here @nova pendant?

[nova pendant]

Heyo! Yeah a lot of it is obsolete hehe but, I think each radar station giving a boost in viewing range could be interesting. That said, Outposts right now are a tad useless (except for providing a new spawn point as well as teleport point). Will have to go through this when the time is right. Right now AIIIIIII

[exotic flax]

Yeah, I just think some interplay between radar, outposts & turret emplacements could allow humans small strongholds around the map when not able to build a HQ.

And being able to level up the radar station at least makes the building more interesting, though that would give you more modelling work to put dishes/towers/etc. on it as it grows 😂

Good luck with finalising the AI build!!!

[twin crown]

Could the radar station expand the initial build area around the HQ

[foggy seal]

Good idea. Having a radar clear all fog of war out of buildable area would really help too. Now it's kind of devious scouting your own base to be able to build something there

[exotic flax]

I think level one radar giving 500m FoW clearance would be really good for humans.

For aliens they should just have no FoW for 500m as default.

[junior python]

Remove radar.

[twin crown]

FOW should have some visuals other than the dark area as well

[fluid turtle]

crab Jump scare on the FOW

[foggy seal]

you and your removals 🤔 😂

[junior python]

Would solve a lot of problems.

[junior python]

This should still be done btw.

I guess the dish could stay...

[foggy seal]

Wouldn't leave alot of 'game' ... even the less effective stuff should stay... just for the sake of having fillant and diversity. The game would be dull if you just take every strategic decision (build wise) out, and give both comms everything they need from start.

[junior python]

I think a significantly smaller amount of units should have been present from the start and then gradually rolled out to ease the growing pains a bit, but the genie is out of that bottle.

[foggy seal]

I disagree. It would make balancing along the way easier, but drag development out in the long term.

[nova pendant]

I think removing it would be a pity. I like its feel and purpose, but it should have:

• Increase view range as now though farther
• Detect concealed units within a range (debatable)
• Allow a ping ability to reveal an area on the map for a time

[mighty sentinel]

Detecting concealed units concerns me....

[exotic flax]

I think the last two points could be merged, and have it be an ability with a decent length cooldown at a higher level of radar station.

Reveals the location and any hidden units in like a 75m radius or something on a 3 minute cooldown.

[nova pendant]

Yes this makes most sense. Keeps Talion happy 😁

[mighty sentinel]

Depends on the finer points I suppose. Tolerable.

[mighty sentinel]

It does make sense from the perspective of maintaining base security to have such a feature.

But gosh darn it I put a lot of effort and time into sneaking behind enemy lines, and I get caught trying to get there most of the time.

I mean if an enemy player or AI catches me I'm probably gonna die and that's fair imo.

This auto detect ability... idk about it. I'm on the fence. I see the utility. But it's also not very hard for a commander to order a Gunship or Dragonfly to come get rid of me. So exposing me when I have no counter kinda sucks.

Still not sure which way I feel about it. If we get some development on the stealth system in the future or the finer points fleshed out so that stealth remains viable then it could be good.

[foggy seal]

maybe some form of stealth unit that can get some extra sneak ability, to allow it to stay under the radar a bit better, is OK, as long as it isn't a dude with C4 that can blow up HQ... I know where you're getting at, and I think there's some room for targets within the enemy base. maybe some form of "sabotage" with specific spots to reach and place c4 to halt production of said building for a while (till it's repaired) or smth...

[exotic flax]

Well if you make the radar station a unique building (can only be built once) or have shared cooldown across all iterations if you build more, than you'd be faced with a choice of someone is sneaking near your base: do I use my scan to try to find the rogue unit, or uncover a part of the map to check on an enemy push(or similar).

[foggy seal]

I'd love for it to send out a small UAV for that specific purpose. it would look cool imho. with some cooldown like you said.

[fluid turtle]

i'm not particularly a fan of having a building that magically helps troops see better. the building itself could have a large vision range

i like the idea that it detects concealed units, talion has issues with it due to it directly countering his prefered strategy, but there needs to be good counters to his strategy

ping the map is a little overdone.

I like the way Sup com does Radar, you would see enemy signals from far away, but you wouldn't know what they are. instead of revealing a circle of map i would just suggest a directional radar ping, by firing a high powered radio wave in a particular direction you would reveal more enemies for a time, and it possibly could break stealth or concealment.

[nova pendant]

Not auto-detect, but rather a special action for the Radar where you have to manually click it and select and area to scan. If you hiding in the area you get detected, if not, not worries

[jade yew]

I would prefer it to work similar to supcom too tbh, cause I really like radar mechanics in that game.

It could also only auto-detect air units instead of supcom's style of detecting everything.
Even better maybe it could spot anything it has direct LOS on from very long range (just as an "unidentified" icon). That would give clifftops/mountains additional strategic value, plus add in terrain masking mechanics.

[exotic flax]

Bumping this thread because the outpost changes were mentioned again in the feedback channel 🙏

[exotic flax]

New suggestion added - if turret limit is connected to outposts, put a terminal(or multiple) in the outpost which allows players to cycle through nearby active turrets and manually control them.

Also add similar terminals to other automated turrets(Human HQ/Centauri Harvester).

^ Credits to @tribal geyser and @mighty sentinel also

[mighty sentinel]

If so, then Outposts cant really overlap in terms of turret build area. Prevents any confusion in terms of which Outpost Controls which turrets