Alien popcorn Turrets and support Spires

[languid juniper]

I first heard of the concept of Popcorn Turrets from the Developers at Petroglyph (if you dont know, these are former Westwood guys who made CnC, Dune 2). They were designed for the Wraith Faction of the Shadow Revolution meant to support thier hit and run playstyle by having turrets that are cheap and deploy quickly to help hold or even assault a position when they don't have the time to wait for big expensive slow to build turrets. Basically put Popcorn turrets are designed to be cheap and pop up fast but are also commensurately very squishy and have low DPS with the intent on players building multiple. If applied to the Hive Spire and Thorn Spire I think that would work better for Aliens, they have a lot of territory to cover and so can't afford to pre-defend all their weakspots. I would reduce the Cost down to at least 350 (+/-50) for the Thorn and Hive Spire, build time 15 seconds (+/-5), cut down the HP by 2/3, attack speed reduce by 1/4, add a clip size of 10 for Thorn and 20 for Hive, running out the Clip will cost another 1/3 of their attack speed. Also the Hive Spire would be Lowered to T1 and Thorn Spire to T2. All these changes will really help differentiate them from their Human Counterparts and plays into the Aliens style better, relying on ambush and swarming rather than on pure defensive power.

Support Spires should be added to help Aliens hold a Position and generally aid the Alien commander and troops. Each Support Spire will cost between 1,000 and 2,000 biotics and have about 60 seconds of build time like the turrets have now.

Sensing Spire: this also takes the Place of the Aliens Radar, it provides doubble the vision range of any alien structure but no teamwide benefit, it may be able to detect stealth and Concealed units. It will provide +20% attack range to any alien unit or structure in 50m, additionally the Sensor Spire will detect and Paint any enemy flying units in a large Radius, turrets within those 50m be able to attack enemy air units painted by the sensor Spire reguardless of range. Alien units can Also be assigned to the sensing Spire which will automatically order assigned units to attack enemies in its vision range.

Healing spire: the healing Spire provides advanced health regeneration to Alien units and structures within 50m, Alien turrets Will regenerate Rapidly in combat making them harder to destroy particularly if they are not 1 shot. The Healing Spire will also provide bonus armor hardening and bonus health to Alien turrets in its range making them additionally harder to kill it wont neccesarily be back to their old levels though.

Concealment Spire: the idea is based on the Stealth Generators of Supreme Commander any friendly unit or structure in 100m will gain Concealment within 50m the detectable Radius of alien units and structures is further reduced. This Structure is T4. With a further upgrade the Concealment Spire will become a Camoflauge Spire, any Aliens within 25m will gain full stealth as long as they do not fire ranged attacks. Enemies will have a hard time engaging turrets outside of their attack range, and Aliens can build forces in Secret.

Queen: straight up reduces build time of structures in 50m for turrets this is about 5 seconds. Queen should also reduce build time for units.

[tribal copper]

There any videos of popcorn turret?

[languid juniper]

Not likely. The topic came up when we were complaining about how weak they were and Popcorn turrets was the explanation.

And End Of Nations was Canceled

I miss that game, got to be in Teamspeak and talk to one of the Westwood Founders. I built some of the Meta strategies, always pitching about monocomps to wondering if monocomps were a good idea. I always tired to have diverse comps, Defiant +Shadowmaker +Ravager kept the enemy foold with a weak Frontline so they didn't notice the Ravagers until the Ravagers turned them into dust, good times.

[tribal copper]

whatever these games you mention are, I've never played them

healing spire is ok, but would prefer some sort of healing cyst

mixed about sensing spire

concealment spire...... yeah dont like it. Mostly because I see no logical explanation for how it would work. Its logical in terms of how it would support the alien faction, but there is no logical explanation as to how this spire hides all the alien units/structures without attracting human attention. From an RTS perspective, it makes sense. From the FPS perspective.... if I can see it why isnt it on the map?

[languid juniper]

Again aliens need their own version of the Radar, the Sensing Spire is networked into the Hive Mind locally allowing Aliens to use its visual prowess to enhance their Range and Accuracy. Painting air helps with their current weakness to air so that outranging turrets is even harder. Warzone 2100 actually has radars that you can assign units to like that, and it's free.

[languid juniper]

A lot of the time enemies pop up on the Radar before they can be seen, this would help with that. Might enhance this effect by having the Concealment Spire project an extra heat distortion effect for FPS players to deal with. Also at T4 it's definitely at a point where Aliens are exercising their Pshychic power

[tribal copper]

please..... no psychic powers. I'd prefer they be kept to a minimum

[languid juniper]

Too late we already have the Colossus. And a Mirage is pretty a low scale for Powers

[tribal copper]

wasnt a fan of it, but I've come to accept Colo attack

but still, I want it at a minimum. The biological mechanisms increase the immersion for me. The psychic attacks are..... immersion breaking

still not thrilled about the new Behemoth attack, but I'll put up with it since it needed the rework

shocker attack is cool. Energy based so not totally psychic, but probably has some degree of psychic focus so I dont really have an issue with it. Sill preferred the Impaler though

[languid juniper]

Didn't care for Impaler cheese

[tribal copper]

it was annoying but I would have preferred solutions other than reworking the attack. Give it a magazine/clip like the old scorpion, limit the range, etc

[languid juniper]

He did limit the range, projectile disappearing is worse than electric attack

[tribal copper]

not sure if its simple to do but would prefer if physics just made the projectile eventually hit the ground

[languid juniper]

Would also work on the principal that Aliens are able to Manipulate Heat/Air pressure to create a Mirage.

Possibly that it can Cause Aliens to go Chamelon with Camoflauge

[tribal copper]

would rather just give more alien units some sort of chameleon ability.

I mean, aliens can quickly set up a FOB behind a cliff or dune and be pretty well protected so I dont think its totally necessary.

mirage ability..... it improves things overall but that only accounts for day time conditions, not the night ones where there isnt a mirage. But I think it would be fair if everyone gets reduced visibility during night

[languid juniper]

Aliens are also a Telepathic Hive Mind, it may be possible to telepathically Communicate with Humans but the Human brain is incapable of making sense of it causing a nasty headache and blurred vision (which we only see the blurred vision).

[tribal copper]

the hive mind was there from the beginning, and I never really took an issue with it since it gave a justification for "free-minding" between alien units.

mixed feelings about whether this hive mind should be able to reach out to humans

[languid juniper]

I mean make a composite language of Farsi, Navajo, and Aramayic, run it through Google translate a few times, transcribe the result as close as possible into Hieroglphics, then translate into Binary, then into Deoxyribose Nucleaic Acid, before running the resultant string through the Enigma Machine, and at the same while your trying to translate it you have to put up With Eldritch Screeching in your Head, and a Bad Trip.

Are the Aliens trying to talk to me or did I catch Super Syphilis there is no way to tell.

[tribal copper]

but why should humans be psychically receptive at all?

shouldn't it also be difficult for the Aliens to even attempt making a psychic link with a human, each of which is an individual with the mental capacities that are equal to a free-mind, if not a Queen

[languid juniper]

They can, maybe have Tried, but the biology/Neurology is So different there is no possible way to get a persistent Message Across.

[tribal copper]

has Dram stated that humans can receive the psychic messages of the Aliens, or is this still tbd

[languid juniper]

Tbd

Probably yes

[tribal copper]

would prefer humans to not be psychically receptive at all

[tribal copper]

also, why don't the Aliens evolve a new life form that can speak/converse with humans through audible sounds?

since they have such a high potential for adapting their own genetic code/HOX genes, it should be possible

[languid juniper]

Without any ability to translate its not as though they can communicate.

[languid juniper]

If humans have such advanced Technology how is they haven't been able to understand Alien thought signals

[tribal girder]

Can’t wait to read this.

[tribal copper]

not necessarily. humans have encountered other groups of humans, where both groups had no ability to comprehend the language of the other, yet they still managed to communicate and eventually learned the other's language

[tribal copper]

it has gone...... wildly off-topic

[languid juniper]

Those are still humans, basic communication abilities are still possible. Facial expressions and body postures are universal. But that doesn't apply to Alien crabs

[tribal copper]

and humans could send university trained biologists to study the aliens. communication through audible means could be discovered

[languid juniper]

They'd have to see the Aliens as more than Pests

[tribal copper]

the NASA Voyager or some satellite has a message written is math to communicate with aliens (stupid idea)

[tribal copper]

this would involve constructing a timeline of discovering Baltarus, human exploration, and independent discoveries of Balterium and its properties vs the Aliens before they adapted into war forms

Further, since the Aliens are a species subjugated in service to another mystery species, it cant be assumed that they share humanity's curiosity and wouldn't attack first to defend the Balterium/planet

[languid juniper]

First time Humans saw Aliens was the warforms.

[tribal girder]

Good

[languid juniper]

It doesn't require Curiosity to tell somone to get off my lawn.

[tribal copper]

wouldnt golden age humanity try to have a bit more.... humanity than this?

doesnt Dram want to get away from a grim dark potential future setting and something a little more... idk aspirational?

[languid juniper]

He has consistently described Humans as being Greedy and letting their Greed get the best of them. Greed doesn't require Authoritarianism

[tribal copper]

idk why but I just though of humanity thinking they can control and colonize Baltarus and "bring the light of civilization to the noble alien"

[languid juniper]

White Man's Burden would be an improvement.

[tribal copper]

https://tenor.com/view/its-probably-the-best-thing-that-ever-happened-to-you-tom-ellis-lucifer-morningstar-lucifer-the-best-thing-that-happened-to-you-gif-17380941

lol

[tribal girder]

Alternatively: remove the radar lol

[languid juniper]

Radar needs an overhaul but I wouldn't remove it

[tribal girder]

Hard agree

[tribal girder]

Fine with this, I really don't like it currently.

[tribal girder]

No comment besides I liked reading this.

Not really much to say besides I agree with the core of the post, alien defensive structures should be squishy and impotent compared to human counterparts but should spread like the plague.

I like the ideas of varying spires, specifically the sensing and regeneration spire. I see the sensing spire as just a hyper sensitive bundle of sensory organs that transmits stimuli to other aliens in its immediate surroundings.

If not the entire hive.

The healing spire could cost biotics? A channel for the hive to heal its spawn by funneling biotics to a forward recovery point.

No comment on the concealment one until those mechanics get fleshed out more.

[woeful thicket]

I like everything except the conceal

[mystic terrace]

I like the popcorn turrets but I actually like them more for one of the human factions rather than the aliens. If you force all of the alien counters and toolkit options to be units rather than buildings then you can maintain a really strong identity for the aliens and give more thematic space to differentiate the human factions.

[languid juniper]

As this is an FPS/RTS I would much rather all the units be available for players to grab and run off with. Coms screaming at the players is bad for everyone involved. Putting up turrets Will help free up the Hunter and defend the wide far flung mining operations the Aliens have.

[mystic terrace]

Depends on the number of players on inf

Right now everybody is playing on PB in a massive server with one commander and too many infantry. But we also have a tournament coming up with teams of 1 commander and 4 infantry. Under those circumstances, the commander is going to have a surplus of high power units and will need to handle commanding them, something that never happens on Prime Battalion.

The commander also can’t afford to have all their skilled infantry running off to die in eco raids. They’re going to need their infantry at home defending the lines. Giving a unit that role in specific makes that situation more exciting.

[languid juniper]

Players will be able to recruit AI units to assist them so rather than running off half cocked in a single Scorpion you'll be in a swarm, in such a tourney you'll probably even have more scorpions to help out.

[mystic terrace]

Idk I don’t like the idea of aliens having fixed defenses. If they’re all about the swarm the swarm should be at home too.

[languid juniper]

I mean if any game was gunna do that it would be starcraft and they didn't, the Nature of Silica, lacking fixed defenses doesn't work.

[mystic terrace]

I’mma be real. Aliens don’t have useful fixed defenses rn.

[tribal girder]

They do not

[mystic terrace]

And they win 60% of the time.

[languid juniper]

They winning a lot this weekend just because of Human harvester bugs, once those get ironed out the balance will change.

And that's the thing, balance will keep changing

[tribal girder]

@mystic terrace I now consider you part of the small minority of people whose ideas are worth listening to.

This means however much value you attach to it.

[mystic terrace]

Balance passes really should be minimal until the game is feature-complete and content-complete

Like every single time dram adds a new mechanic to the game it tips the balance all over the place

[languid juniper]

agreed

[mystic terrace]

Anyways I don’t think the aliens should necessarily have a ton of base infrastructure. They already have to place far more buildings than the other factions and because they mine biotics out so quickly they tend to expand past any defenses they have built very quickly. This translates to a ton of money being spent on things that don’t ultimately improve their offensive power. I think that popcorn turrets fit a lot better for one of the human factions. The alien approach to base defense should be mobile screening forces, fast-traveling QRF forces, and units that turn themselves into turrets, like spine and spore crawlers from SC2.

[languid juniper]

Popcorn turrets being really cheap reduces that burden and leftovers will Harrass Human Air while they try to ravage your base and find key structures. I also think Alien Bases should have a greater emphasis on Redundancy, as none of their structures last long under fire. QoL updates will fix the issues with noding so they shouldn't be counted against them.

QRF will often be too late to prevent Human Harrassers from doing massive damage eliminating 10s of shrimp and Biocashes in a single pass. Human Air won't need to stop for QRF to catch up, They already don't.

Don't think crawlers are useful outside of cheese and Silica Humans aren't vulnerable to that kind of cheese.

[languid juniper]

Also I would rather Human Turrets to be Modular Turrets like the GDI ones from Tiberian Sun, you can change the weapon with a simple ability. Centauri I'd like to see make upgradeable Turrets, nothing says brute force like slapping more Armor and Guns to anything and everything.

[tribal copper]

tbh, I agree with this.

[tribal copper]

I think Aliens shouldn't rely on a QRF.

Rather, every shrimp swarm should have a small army of anti-harass units posted around them. The army acts as protectors of the Shrimp and follow the shrimp wherever they go

This would simplify logistics, supply chains, and eco defense

[mystic terrace]

Your QRF is for intercepting larger attacks. You still have and need local garrisons for smaller probing attacks but you need a QRF to go face off vs a flanking detachment.

[languid juniper]

Your smaller probing attack is Talion on a Hoverbike, the flanking detachment is a fighter/gunship hunting eco.

[tribal copper]

^

anything larger is a significant offensive force and is probably capable of doing much more than harassing eco. its going after heavier infrastructure and walking back node chains

that's where the QRF would come in. to either stop such a force or to buy time for back-up to arrive

I would use a QRF to deal with a sudden TP spam or to flank an enemy main force. QRF can be used for internal base security but until cloaking units arrive and we have saboteurs lurking in the shadows, its not super necessary to maintain a large QRF

[languid juniper]

Yeah QRF are needed for bigger attacks it's eco sniping where it's utterly insufficient, and Aliens are particularly vulnerable to that rn.

[tribal copper]

man we need more auto-eco support. the fun is fighting in leading troops. eco just takes up so much time that all the cool maneuvers that a COM could do just never happen because eco sucks up so much time

[languid juniper]

It's why I refuse to com Alien rn

[tribal copper]

need that assign command imo. assign some dragonflies and a Behemoth to the shrimp to keep them safe. Assign a Defiler if you have one to spare.

Human air will have a MUCH harder time going after the alien eco that way. It'll take too long to achieve results, and sometimes that's enough.

[tribal copper]

I mean, I suck at noding anyway so Im not a good Alien COM. My only strategy is to node up to the human base, set up a FOB, and let the players do the fighting.

90% of the time is focusing on eco and Im still bad at it. When I do get to play with my army and take down enemy forces I have fun doing elaborate pincers, flanking maneuvers, and working the terrain to give my guys the advantage. The attack move orders are almost unnecessary because of how well you can move troops, but it only works if my eco is alive and well

[languid juniper]

So what 10 behemoths 50 dragonflies to protect all the Alien eco. And thats not counting the QRF

And it all comes crashing down because some player was tired of playing as a crab single.

[tribal copper]

more like 1 behemoth and 5 dragonflies.

10 and 50 is way too much for eco defense. send em to the front lines

[languid juniper]

That math won't stop you from murdering an unprotected biocashe.

[tribal copper]

you can add a Defiler to the eco defense comp, at least for the more exposed shrimps

[languid juniper]

Eco is spread out across 5km

Gl

[tribal copper]

Defiler has a range of what, 700m?

this is fairly doable

[languid juniper]

With about 5 defilers, that can be taken out by railtanks at 1km range

[tribal copper]

railguns arent all over the map though. Defiler main concern is Fighters cheesing range, and Defiler range should be increased to prevent this.

Defilers should not be exposed on the front lines, rather acting as support units and using cover. In the back with the eco this is not as imporant as Railguns are less prevalent there

[languid juniper]

yeah i hate the idea of making units just to have them hover over the base, and you have to scream at the players to not take them its not good for anyone, and i would rather have turrets

[tribal copper]

fair. that also opens up trouble since alien turrets are garbage and cheesable

[languid juniper]

alien bases are very spread out which means they have to cover a very large area QRFs are just impractical as the only defense

[tribal copper]

this is meant to account for current problems, so you depend on a mix of those 3 units to protect shrimp in combination with an "assign" command

[languid juniper]

thats a lot of units though

just to protect shrimp

[tribal copper]

turrets are also impractical. as someone who has spammed hive spires, they are worthless.

shrimp eat their way past them spires and the spires are too expensive build. if an air unit flew into a spot where the shrimp had been shot down that would be great. But building an AA battery at each tarpit is not feasible

[languid juniper]

popcorn turrets dont replace QRF, they dont last long but they take out weak attacks and buy time for the QRF to arrive

[tribal copper]

the units at least move. the spires/turrets dont

[languid juniper]

im talking about the popcorn turrets not the current incarnations

[languid juniper]

thats my point

[tribal copper]

idk. maybe a commander ability can be used to activate all the nodes in the area and turn them into some sort of defensive structures for a limited time.

[languid juniper]

did you read the original post?

[tribal copper]

the nodes are all just latent popcorn turrets until resources are spent to activate them

[tribal copper]

its been a couple days

[languid juniper]

units should be reserved for QRF and assault forces, not passive defense. its too much troubble to rely on them, plus you can 1v10 crabs with your stupid taser

[past swift]

What qrf, dragonflies and firebugs?