Wall idea that circumvents terrain challenges

[inner osprey]

For humans, an electricity type wall using individual posts that zaps aliens passing between them. For aliens, using living tree/vine post that grabs units passing between them. (or releases close proximity spores between the posts when units pass close/between them?) This would circumvent the idea of connected walls clipping through terrain?

[rapid kraken]

Aliens have far fewer issues with walls than humans do. They enjoy the cover, it reasonably protects their buildings without being Attack on Titan Sized, and they can climb right over them.

If the Aliens can jut smack the posts down then it's not hard to make giant holes in the wall.

[rapid kraken]

Other problem is aliens can easily go around such walls, you'd have to completely encircle your base to get out of it.

City of Narraka and monument valley provide Aliens with easy ways around them.

It is certainly a better idea than a physical wall though.

[strange dust]

I like the idea of a higher structure for infantry to reach a better vantage point though. It has its cons and pros. Depending who is the enemy.

[wispy canopy]

Alternative idea for walls, shield walls, makes it so alien can't pass it until aliens breaks it

but human unit can pass through it and shoot through it

aliens can still climb on it but it would offer an actual utility for humans and be an obstacle for aliens

This can be achieved by using layers in unity

[strange dust]

https://tenor.com/view/shrek-onions-ogres-layers-gif-5703242

[wispy canopy]

XD not that kind of layers

but layers in unity is basically telling what object can interact with each other

but what do you think of that @strange dust ? Doesn't have to be fully shielded walls

"Balterium shield walls" idk

[strange dust]

Interesting idea! How about pulse-based repulsive walls? To adjust it to the Silica lore. If I remember correctly, pulse technology, the same behind pulse tank and the hover bike levitation, is fairly common.

Maybe make them so the Aliens cannot climb over them and have to destroy some pylons or something to make an opening, as it was mentioned above.

[wispy canopy]

yeah, I think that would be interesting. You would counteract aliens mobility on difficult terrain and give humans the utility they need, a wall that isn't obstructing them

[potent hearth]

eh, not big on this idea

I want human infantry to make sandbag barriers to take cover behind

If crabs do something similar thats fine

But massive walls as emplaced fortifications dont make sense. Electrical fence isnt a bad idea, but to be honest, I'd rather set up a firing squad of infantry to do the same job. Scouts are dirt cheap now, and alien wasps fly over it easily

If you wanted to slow down the advance of ground aliens, I think you should look at the Silica crystals over Balterium patches. Screws up crab pathfinding. Just make a similar version out of metal or something that the humans build. You would slow down aliens and give your unit more time to shoot them

[strange dust]

Personal fortifications >> sand bags, will be a thing for infantry to mount a machine gun or something

[rapid kraken]

That can be accomplished with a Guard tower

[inner osprey]

Not if you read what I wrote about using posts?

[inner osprey]

Not if the posts are as tanky as say an outpost

[inner osprey]

👀 force field walls

[wispy canopy]

he doesn't

[rapid kraken]

Litterally my second post Mada

I'm not the one having issues reading

[rapid kraken]

It would be tricky to find the right balance to that, Aliens have to be able to take it down in a reasonable time frame otherwise you risk forcing Aliens into a Air heavy strategy

[inner osprey]

True, balance is key

[rapid kraken]

If it blocks projectiles then you force humans to leave the safety of the barrier to fight the very melee oriented Aliens, if it doesn't block projectiles then it's entirely not an impediment to human factions.

[wispy canopy]

I feel like the point of having walls is not setting up a perimeter around the entire base. I feel like with the walls in OP suggestions. You would want it in sections with turrets, important structures etc

Electricity type wall which OP suggested wouldn't stop projectiles though?

[inner osprey]

no projectile blocking for alien wall, one way blocking force field type wall for humans?

[rapid kraken]

Aliens are Massively good at mobility, so you need to ring something

[inner osprey]

That's why I'm suggesting walls lol

[wispy canopy]

aliens have awful mobility

with the exception of crab

and firebug

[inner osprey]

and hunter

[wispy canopy]

yea

[inner osprey]

so not really lol

[wispy canopy]

the actual heavy hitting units are behemoths and scorps, which is the backbone

[inner osprey]

both factions have fast/slow units

[rapid kraken]

Aliens could easily build sand walls and it would be effective, they don't need a energy Barrier

[rapid kraken]

Which are supposed to be backed up by swarms of crabs

[wispy canopy]

but currently isn't

[inner osprey]

If you read the post it mentions a tentacle wall of sorts using the post method to circumvent terrain clipping

[rapid kraken]

It's not about what currently is but about what will be

[rapid kraken]

The issue is moreover that Humans like walls with flat tops, an issue Aliens do not share.

[inner osprey]

Could have the posts act as guard tower type deal where units can post up (pun intended)

[rapid kraken]

Guard towers are great, but I'm not fond of the idea that it would make you immune to crabs, merely delay the inevitable.

[potent hearth]

I think crabs should be the builder units for aliens. Gives them a purpose late game besides cannon fodder.

They are the basic work/fighting unit, so it makes sense imo

[inner osprey]

Not immune if crabs climb the tower

[rapid kraken]

Would love crabs as a builder, I'm just not sure dram likes that idea

[rapid kraken]

Which is my point, however when they climb the tower, they all climb the tower. Problem number 2 with traditional walls Is Aliens easily get over them, thus they get a nice piece of cover to use to assault very vulnerable locations

[potent hearth]

for humans, I would not erect walls. At least, not against Aliens. There is some value in erecting walls to stop other humans, but they become useless once superior firepower is used against them. 1 rocket truck is sufficient to take them down.

[rapid kraken]

1 rocket truck is sufficient to fire over the wall

[inner osprey]

idk, if you can only get crabs past, it's still useful imo

[inner osprey]

this is true

[potent hearth]

I think that for fighting other humans, humans would be better served to set up a massive shield generator to protect several buildings at once.
Would force the enemy humans to get close while defending humans get to use their guns.

However, this does little against aliens since their strength is getting in close. So I would set up spike carpets and mine carpets. Basically a bunch of things that the aliens have to walk around or through while you shoot them.

[rapid kraken]

Dram did say he wants to add a large dome shield for Sol

[inner osprey]

Actually idk, the game has a lot of fairly long range units so maybe walls are kinda pointless. Teams will sit back and punch a hole through then push

Minefields on the other hand

Just something to slow down advances

[rapid kraken]

But both that and shield walls is a lot of extra work for not a lot of extra payoff.

[rapid kraken]

Not a fan of minefields personally and dram hates the idea as there is too much area to cover for them to be effective

[wispy canopy]

You only have to cover certain areas for it to be effective though?

[potent hearth]

yeah, tbh I dont understand this logic.

f it. Im going to make a mine thread

[wispy canopy]

yeah I don't get this either. You don't need to cover half of the map. There are obvious hotspots for mines to be used at and to be effective

[hardy holly]

Hello! Thanks for posting. I covered this topic in another thread but for posterity:

On the topic of walls - I promised I would look into it and I do intend to keep that promise. That said, I see them as impractical simply for the fact that aliens can easily scale them, can ironically use them as cover within a human base, thus their use is more limited to humans vs humans. In this case the story is different, but given the varied terrain and the large structures, walls would see little real use, in my opinion. If they were forcefields, then they would have use vs aliens, provided the aliens cannot scale them but again, how tall should such a 'wall' be to provide some use? In my opinion we dive too deep into essentially a shield in the regard, and it is better to simply take this path. But, I will look into walls just later in development, given it has a big impact on AI which must not be easily cheesed by them.

[rapid kraken]

How tall should they be?
Attack on Titan theme plays

[strange dust]

https://tenor.com/view/donald-trump-yuge-huge-gif-14073397

Huuuge huge wall

[wispy canopy]

I feel like if humans at the time figured aliens could just climb anywhere.

The best option would either have some sort of electric fencing/forcefield wall that periodically stunned if there were something crawling ontop of the wall. Then the wall/fence wouldn't have to be that tall

[potent hearth]

idk. bullet walls work really well too

[wispy canopy]

it's not a tool that supposed to stop everything. It's an obstacle that should be destroyed but provide utility against alien swarming into important infrastructure(turrets) for a time

[wispy canopy]

well it should be supplemented, it's just an idea and if dram don't want to implemented then there's no need to push for it
gamedev is hard as it is already lol

[potent hearth]

i know. I just really like the Vladof solution (Borderlands reference)

[wispy canopy]

it's like how you can't have behemoths everywhere sometimes so you add hivespires to supplement your lack of AA

[potent hearth]

"You don't need to be more accurate, you just need to shoot more bullets!"

[potent hearth]

my biggest flaw as alien COM is using too many hive spires

instead of Behemoths

[wispy canopy]

yeah, hive spires is a supplement to your overall defense, not a tool to end all threats

wall/fence/or whatever should be treated the same but I think too many people in this community treat it as a tool to completely end all threats

[potent hearth]

I think I would try to erect electrified fences around tarpits

just to tick off the alien players

[wispy canopy]

If you could have eletric fence around a turret cluster that itself would be huge

[potent hearth]

true

[wispy canopy]

Or tech, most of your base isn't valuable

Like who's gonna wall around their refinery lol

[potent hearth]

if the fences get too big harv pathing is going to self-terminate

[wispy canopy]

And walls would need different support/ system that isn't already implemented into the game so I have perfect understanding why this would be a post 1.0 project

[wispy canopy]

I think a perfect example on how it was already being used.

Pre building damage removal @potent hearth

human commanders would often spam cheap buildings to stop alien advances. While you could still climb over/damage, it was a tool to create a tempory obstacle

[rapid kraken]

Spamming cheap buildings worked because Aliens couldn't climb over them without dying, also some pose a legitimate threat like Outposts that will get a turret farm when complete. Also back when they were spawning points for Humans Smacking the Pinata could result in a swarm of Angry Humans.

Walls just not that useful

[wispy canopy]

Walls/eletric walls whatever that has these specific properites would be useful

Walls could extend build range and protect turret farms

[potent hearth]

true, I would set up an electric fence to deter lone crabs from trying to climb on my turrets

could make electrified fences a building upgrade. keeps small trash alien units off them

[rapid kraken]

Deter lone crabs? I could just jump over the fence

[potent hearth]

the fence just got 10 feet taller lol

[rapid kraken]

And I went through the giant hole created when the turret started shooting at me

[potent hearth]

but, wouldnt that mean the turret gets you?

so even though the fence may sustain damage, it did its job. forced you to hold still long enough to kill you

just needs to be repaired

[rapid kraken]

If the turret got me then why do you need a fence?

[potent hearth]

physical barrier you cant run past

[wispy canopy]

Crabs can't really jump though

[rapid kraken]

The turret put a big hole in the fence by shooting at the fence to hit me

[wispy canopy]

Electric fencing/holo whatever scifi you want. Doesn't have to be super realistic lol

[potent hearth]

also, Dram is implementing stuff to avoid friendly fire, so this may not even be an issue depending on the situation and what gets programmed

[wispy canopy]

Shieldds too

[rapid kraken]

So it's cover now

[potent hearth]

plus, who said the fence would be destroyed? what kind of turret is it? The standard gun turret just shoots bullets and wouldnt take it down. The Heavy turret? Maybe but it has really small AOE. So even so, I dont think the fence will even sustain damage

[rapid kraken]

And yet not even realistically able to differentiate from the giant dome shield already planned -Dram

[wispy canopy]

Yeah that's a form of a wall too

[rapid kraken]

Exactly

Thus a second form of wall is not needed

[potent hearth]

you know what kind of wall we can do that isnt a wall?

minefields

[rapid kraken]

Which are dumb for other reasons

[wispy canopy]

Against aliens? Hardly I think

[potent hearth]

yet modern militaries are actively using them

idk. maybe those militaries are dumb too

[potent hearth]

should hover tanks be able to bypass minefields?

I mean, its not like they touch the ground

[wispy canopy]

I feel like the forcefield do push down on the earth though

but idk however they are implemented I'm fine with it lol

[potent hearth]

hovers dont use force field though

we would have to figure out how much force is exerted on the ground by a rocket engine

[wispy canopy]

anti grav field :')

[potent hearth]

hmmm.....

we will need to consult the AI

[strange dust]

Walls should never have build range. Lesson learned from first C&C, It would be easily exploitable. You would expand to the enemy base super easily

[wispy canopy]

yeah it was a bad idea in hindsight :')

was gonna retract it

[rapid kraken]

IRL mostly they stopped using mines, mines don't discriminate friend, foe, or a Child who stepped on it 10 years after the war is over, and they are easy to lose also.

[potent hearth]

not that either is a peer with the US, but Russia and Ukraine are both using mine fields right now

as callous as it is, I think militaries will choose to lay mines even at the risk of children dying if they believe there is a credible threat posed to them and there arent more effective solutions

mines provide an immediate and effective solution, which is what war frequently demands.

[potent hearth]

so I had Chat GPT run the numbers. So it would absolutely set off anti-personnel mines, but maybe not normal anti-tank mines

[rapid kraken]

Mostly banned by Geneva

[potent hearth]

https://tenor.com/view/bucket-list-gif-25779541

[potent hearth]

well, since we are fighting alien crabs, I don't anyone will pay too much attention to the Geneva Suggestions

Gonna turn this into the Geneva Checklist against the aliens

[rapid kraken]

Yes the Most Reliable Source, a Chatbot

[potent hearth]

saves me the time of having to look stuff up and do math manually

plus, if I start looking up how much psi it takes to set off a landmine Im probably going to get added to some more lists

[rapid kraken]

It's Science fiction, none of the Math works

If you go to College your on a List these days.

[potent hearth]

I took organic chemistry.

Im on a lot of lists

[wispy canopy]

I feel like geneva doesn't have much control over planetary conflicts

[rapid kraken]

Geneva doesn't control much of anything ergo why Russia and Ukraine can ignore it, but there are social consequences to violating it.

If the voters don't like you breaching Geneva you could be voted out.

The bigger issue for countries is though the friendly fire ramifications and losing them.

IFF systems for mines are also pretty dumb for pretty obvious reasons.

[wispy canopy]

I think being on another planet it would make it super easy for sol to transform the narrative in any way they want

[potent hearth]

By the time the events of Silica take place, Geneva is 300 years old or something.

If the governments are a little corrupt, have a security state, and maintained peace for over 200 years by controlling the public, then they can certainly justify breaking Geneva Conventions if they just say the other guy started it first

[signal quiver]

If society has grown depended on balterium (or whatever it is called) they will definitely break the geneva it to get their hands on it.

[rapid kraken]

Yeah but the security state thing is currently only in your headcannon while Dram said he would prefer something not quite so depressing

[rapid kraken]

Sol figures they already won they just have to protect their gains, there just isn't a need to break Geneva.

[signal quiver]

Source? I ain't going to take your word for it, mah dude.

[potent hearth]

He's the unofficial lore dude

[potent hearth]

But would they make and use weapons thay violate Geneva on Aliens?

They aren't human, and humans may not perceived them as sentient.

[rapid kraken]

sol having a sense of superiority is unconfirmed but makes logical sense, they Centauri is an Upostart they never believed could challenge them, and the Aliens are just mindless bugs yo

[rapid kraken]

would you use a cannon to swat a fly?

[potent hearth]

Ugh, yes

The aliens can be called bugs, but a the Goliaths, Behemoths, Scorpions... The DEFILERS

Yes. Break Geneva and use the most effective weapons to secure space oil and minimize human casualties

Pretty big flies

[wispy canopy]

You don't exactly need to have an authoritarian state to know you're control in of the narrative on a planet unreachable by anyone who doesn't have the latest technology.

The intro may already be an skewed perspective of what we see from the sol perspective

[signal quiver]

Yes but go on a roleplay forum and you will see a lot of these around there too.

[signal quiver]

As your purpose in this discord seems to be about ending discussions rather than promoting such, I will again ask you for the source.

[potent hearth]

No, I mean he has helped Dram with compiling of the lore stuff and knows some things the rest of us aren't privy to

[potent hearth]

Would advise taking him with a grain of salt. Until the game's story is released I'll maintain my habit of pointing out things that I consider plot holes, inconsistencies, or just outright don't make sense.

[signal quiver]

"and knows some things the rest of us aren't privy to" No I really don't think so as I don't see why he would. If you want to ask Dram about lore or whatever it might be about the game just PM Dram. There is no secrets or anything bro, I from time to time throw messages to Dram and he replies when he has time.

[potent hearth]

Eh. I just try to keep my communications with him on this Discord.

If I see him on I might try to ask a question but he gets to it when he gets to it

[signal quiver]

You're missing out on a beautiful mind, last time me and Dram chatted, we spoke about censorship and how it effects society.

[potent hearth]

super neat. however, I'd still feel guilty for occupying too much of his time. guy has to manage this discord, family, and game development.

[signal quiver]

Do you understand the point though?

[potent hearth]

the point of what?

[signal quiver]

Don't worry about it lol. cba

[opal veldt]

Some discussions need not continue.

[signal quiver]

Feel free to disengage.

[opal veldt]

I think I know what event this is referencing.

[signal quiver]

I guess so.

[rapid kraken]

I don't really keep secrets, Dram hasn't asked me too. At most I will admit to Omitting Minor Details but If you ask I will be honest about my Opinion vs Dram's preferences. Ofc several things I've learned from Dram have been in Streams or chats from so long ago that they are difficult to source. I'm fairly certain it was in a Stream near the beginning where Dram said that Grimdark is overused so he wants a Lighter theme, to stand out more. Thusly why Sol was at peace for so long, and also why i think the security State explanation isnt the right one, its just too Grimdark for what Dram wants. While Dram has figured out a lot of the Big ideas a lot of the smaller details are not ironed out. Also he admits most of it is headcannon and he hasn't written down any of his lore, it's why I made the Lore doc, it's a public resource we can draw from that is completely 100% endorsed by dram.

[rapid kraken]

So the Geneva thing, not confirmed by Dram, overconfidence is a little bit of their theme and Sol paid for it twice, first with the Aliens kicking their butt, second with Centauri kicking their butt. Even with the Hard lessons learned Sol has the Manpower, Technological and Industrial advantage over their opponents. The Centauri has 0 advantages over Sol, their strengths are heavier Armor and Bigger guns, which isn't a Unique Advantage. Sol also does not know that the Aliens are responsible for Balterium or that they have higher masters, they see Aliens as mindless bugs. Nothing has challenged these Assumptions for Sol, when Aliens Attacked they had no defenders, while pushed back to the Citadel the Citadel held against the Aliens, and since them they have developed the military resources to defend their Mining Expeditions and so are out and About. Centauri Demolished the Citadel in a 12/7, 9/11 style surprise Attack, being Caught off Guard they were vulnerable. But the Centauri have proved that the best they can use is 20th Century Tech, while Sol is Firmly using 25th Century tech. They have the perfect recipie with a mixture of ignorance and Denial for overconfidence.

As me and Echo have said if Centauri has nothing more than Pluck and 20th century armor they are not a near peer competitor to sol. As much as I believe Centauri should have some of their own Unique Technological Advantages, as long as they don't then Sol wouldn't be wrong to be Overconfident, and if Centauri do have their own Unique techs then Sol's Hubris being their Undoing is a great Plot device.

[opal veldt]

20th century?

[rapid kraken]

More or less

[opal veldt]

They are still a space faring interplanetary civilization.

[rapid kraken]

They are driving hummers

[opal veldt]

And they colonized another planet. Heavy quad could just be an example of if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

[rapid kraken]

Military Tech has Atrophied which is why they have Hummers. Their most advanced piece of Equipment is Basically a CnC style Apocalypse Tank

[opal veldt]

That we know of

[rapid kraken]

Dram hasn't committed to anything more Advanced than that despite my pressure

[potent hearth]

eh. even if military tech has atrophied, surely civillian tech is fine. they have to drive hummers. they just need to use whatever modern cars they have, strap armor and a machine gun to it, and voila you have a basic technical.

with a bit of design and engineering you can reuse the chasis of a modern vehicle and strip it down and then build it back up as a war vehicle

[rapid kraken]

Don't need to Add 40k to Silica you know that.

[rapid kraken]

Sci fi technicals would be an option if dram hadn't already committed to Hummers

[potent hearth]

just cause its body looks like a Hummer doesnt mean it is one

[rapid kraken]

Hover tech is also exclusive to Sol as it is powered by Balterium Reactors

[potent hearth]

could put a V8 into a model T

I bet the Hummers run on E-710

[rapid kraken]

I mean the Hummers are probably Electric.

But it's still a hummer

[potent hearth]

not really. different internal parts. exterior is mostly superficial, unless you are concerned about aerodynamics and armor.

interior/engine/motor is what makes a vehicle.

looks like a Hummer, but probably isnt. Same goes for the Gunship. Sure looks like an Apache, but totally different propulsion. Not an Apache

[rapid kraken]

Ship of Thesius

[hardy holly]

Heyo all, just felt it important to say that it is good to let discussions continue. Ideas can sprout out of nowhere and no amount of pestering, pressuring will change what I had intended for the game as foundational pillars. If it doesn't fit, it won't be in, but is worth discussing anyway, so please be careful to not try and stifle discussions simply because it is inconvenient. Just want everyone to feel free to share their ideas and I really appreciate such posts, so please avoid hammering them down 🙂

[hardy holly]

Golanx I really appreciate the lore you've written up (legend) but I am very specific in regards to it. I've not had a chance to thoroughly go through the entire document but welcome it as vast source of ideas. But I must be honest and clear in that it is not considered canon just yet! Some parts may make it in while others not, I have a very specific idea of the world in my head (sorry for being ultra-stubborn with this but I must) that I have been unable to find the time to put into words. Some things come up naturally from sprouted ideas, such as "The Swarm" that refers to the globular cluster I added to the sky only recently. The lore is not nailed down 100%, this is true, but it also isn't entirely malleable either. I will be honest here, for example teleportation was not in until about 2 months before release! It came as a need to get players across the battlefield fast and then sprouted a ton of ideas I worked back into the lore, in fact forming a foundational pillar of it. Hence, yet again, why it is so important to keep idea discussions open, no matter how far-fetched they may sound 🙏

[rapid kraken]

I stand corrected, but I have mostly considered the lore doc as a public resource and thus I have kept it clear of my own ideas. Believe me, I have plenty.

[strange dust]

Keep them coming. I love this!