#How will science work?

180 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

queen halo
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How exactly will scientific progression work in the game? Is it gonna be based on research points and a tech tree or will it actually engage players to discover new materials, technologies and later combine them when making prototypes?

versed otter
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Not a full answer but here's something Dan talked about on the topic: #starsim-discussion message

queen halo
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That message is from almost a year ago, knowing how development process works, a lot has probably changed since then. But either way that message helped answer me some of my concerns.

versed otter
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Yeah he might've said something more recent, that was just the easiest one I could find outright

cloud locust
# queen halo How exactly will scientific progression work in the game? Is it gonna be based o...

Everything in the game will have a science/tech level associated with it, including your ship and its science department/ship's AI.

I still need to work out the exact scaling, but that's say humanity is tech level 15, with tech levels working like:

1 = Uses basic tools
2 = Has a verbal language
3 = Has a written language
4 = Has agriculture
5 = Constructs buildings with quarried stone
etc, etc

New materials/technology will require a greater tech level to unlock their secrets, and you'll level up your science team through performing science. That means analysing samples and performing scans. We want it to be passive, and something that happens naturally through normal gameplay.

If you encounter a race that's tech level 30, you likely won't stand a chance against them and won't have any clue what those energy signatures are on their ship. Once you are tech level 30 yourself however, you will now be able to identify those energy signatures for what they really are (weapons, shields, etc), in addition to being able to use that level of technology on your own ship.

A new mineral that makes your cabling 10 times more robust might be tech level 25, but again, unless your science team are that level, you won't be able to make use of that mineral's exciting properties.

Ultimately we want to reward by doing, so both players and NPC's alike will gain skill passively just by performing their role normally.

queen halo
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So if I find a cool material I will have to wait till my science team gets the appropriate level to use it by scanning useless pieces of rock?

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Ngl seems kinda braindead

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I was expecting the science gameplay to be more about discovering new things and figuring out how to combine them to improve the ship, rather than grinding sample collection...

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Perhaps you could introduce the limitations to what you can produce with more physical barriers like production capabilities.

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So for example that new mineral you mentioned with very useful properties cannot be utilized until you create proper techniques to refine it.

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Imo, something like this would feel much more natural and engaging.

versed otter
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Not for nothing, but could you elaborate how that's different? Usually "gaining XP" is the gamification of growing in experience and becoming more proficient, so getting to level 30 is the representation of "you create proper techniques to refine it." Are you talking about like...learning new recipes BotW style, where you learn a new meal when you experiment and throw the right ingredients into the pot together? Or something like needing to upgrade a 3D printer to be able to handle "nanomolecular crystal matrixes" before being able to create a new kind of wiring with a different mineral? Or something else entirely?

dim scarab
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I think Dan's method will work just fine and is realistic enough.

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You won't lvl up by just scanning the same rock over and over but if it's an exotic rock it might take time to learn. This is as close to rl as possible I suppose.

dim scarab
cloud locust
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I think we can certainly add more depth to the system, for example by having higher tech level objects result in greater science gains. There needs to be a sweet spot for efficient levelling, with low level items becoming useless, and very high level items being beyond your ability to comprehend.

Also, things like running a continual scan on a black hole, with the percentage of completion going up faster the closer you are to the event horizon, creating a risk vs reward balance.

What we don't want is players just sitting in orbit around a single planet grinding their way to max science by looking at the same rocks over and over. New rocks from new locations need to provide the juciest science, with diminishing returns if you linger there (because you've learned all you can from those samples).

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Obviously it's not just rocks, it could be anything from alien tech to a plant

dim scarab
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The rose to beat all roses

agile narwhal
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@cloud locust Will there be prerequisite tiers? For example will we have to science up and upgrade Nifty Science Gadget Scanner A and develop Better 3D Process Gamma, and make 3D Printer Hardware Over 9000 before we can research and/or build Smexy Super Better Component Widget Thingy?

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Or in other words have to research, unlock, and build the supporting technologies to make researching, unlocking and building a component upgrade or tier possible?

dim scarab
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I.
Just.
LOVE.
These.
Names.

glass apex
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If you have the ability to make new equipment, you should be able to name them so we can use our best pseudo science terms.

queen halo
# versed otter Not for nothing, but could you elaborate how that's different? Usually "gaining ...
  • you find new rock
  • you run a few tests of the rock
  • the rock contains a new metal you haven't seen before, but it's trapped in form of a salt
  • the rock can withstand really high temperatures, so you can't refine it
  • you get a sample of alien bacteria
  • test the bacteria, turns out they metabolize the compound that the rock is made out of and give you the pure metal
  • you create a bioreactor and throw both rock and bacteria inside
  • after some time you get pure metal which you can run tests on and see if it can be useful anywhere on the ship
  • metal turns out to be stronger than diamond (or some other special property)
  • you set up a refining facility in the workshop (using that bacteria mentioned earlier)
  • you use the metal you got to create stronger drills for your probes and mining equipment
  • congratulations, now you can collect samples from places you couldn't have before and your mining ships are collecting resources more efficiently
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I was thinking about something like that

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A research system that requires you to think critically and make use of other stuff to achieve the ultimate goal of getting the new tech

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Something like this would be much more rewarding than scan rock => level up => scan better rock

queen halo
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@cloud locust can we have science system based more on experimentation and critical thinking rather than XP farming? I'm pretty sure that you are not far into developing it (if you even started), so changing the design should still be possible.

cloud locust
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The system you described certainly has a lot more depth to it, but remember that has to work procedurally across the board with every physical object you bring aboard the ship.

We'll be fleshing it out over time for sure, but we're going to start simple and add depth in stages.

queen halo
queen halo
upper ocean
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So if I understand it correctly, you want more interconnectivity between the different materials? Sounds really cool :D How would you see the "levelling up" component for the individual characters? Or do you want the whole ship to level up together?

queen halo
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For the common materials (ice, chalcopyrate, magnetite, gold, platinum, sand and sulphur), they could be found in asteroids and on most planets. Some special materials could be only found in specific places in specific planets (those materials could include metals from the island of stability).

queen halo
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And not level based

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Making components out of different materials would give you better results

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So for example if you would get a material that can withstand rly high temperatures, you could use it to upgrade the engines of your ship

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If you find a material that has higher hardness then a diamond, you could use it for the drills on your mining ships

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If you find a metal that is really dense, you could use it for railgun rounds

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Since finding a new material that can perform a certain task better is gonna be rather rare

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And this science system I'm talking about isn't limited just to materials

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I think microscopic and some macroscopic life forms could play a big part

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As well as some molecular biotechnology

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You could for example find a bacteria that metabolises certain minerals into pure elements

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Giving you for example a higher quality copper bars

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Or a different bacteria that works rly well as a vector for agroinfection

upper ocean
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Putting the science in science I see :D

queen halo
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Or a protist that has some interesting gene that could be used to improve your current crops

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For example it has a gene coding an enzyme that can turn atmospheric nitrogen into NO3-

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And you could take that gene and use the bacteria that's good at agroinfection and put it into the the plants you are growing

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Thus removing the need to fertalise the soil in your hydroponics

queen halo
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I really wish that science in this game feels like real science

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Not XP farming

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And for gaining information on minerals and organisms

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There could be some more to it then just scanning

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You could analyse the data from the scanners on the bridge

upper ocean
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I think it depends on how you see the XP, if you don't see it as a bar but as the new things you can make

queen halo
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To find out that there is an increased amount of NO3- in the area

upper ocean
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I'm trying to wrap my head around both yours and Dan's ideas

queen halo
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And that is how you know that the microorganisms from there are probably responsible for it

queen halo
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When it comes to realism in games I'm a god damn fanatic

upper ocean
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It makes it really easy to compare things with each other though, but I understand your point

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I'm curious how it will work procedurally though. How do you define a new material? Is it a compound? How do you define new ones and how do you determine what is better than what?

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In the end it should all come back to making it easier or faster to explore the galaxy, that is the goal of the game

queen halo
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How it would work

queen halo
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Make all the materials

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Both common and exotic

queen halo
upper ocean
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I think Dan wants to make the materials themself also procedural

queen halo
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That wouldn't really be possible

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You would end up with pretty much infinite materials

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Which is impossible with a finite amount of elements

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And from what ik, there is only a single small island of stability hypothesised to exist

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btw, the island of stability is a hypothesised "place" beyond the mendeleev's table

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some mfs calculated that there could exist a few stable isotopes of certain elements somewhere in 8th, 9th and 10th period

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and if we would manage to get em

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they would unlock a lot of new possibilities for us

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what i'm proposing for the rare materials to be

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is these elements from the island of stability

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and perhaps a few superconductors

upper ocean
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Isn't that also what Dan is proposing? Currently we don't have the understanding to make these new materials, but with more research, it would be possible. The only big difference I see is that Dan measures progress in levels, while you do it in new materials/machines

queen halo
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that by scanning a rock

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you gain levels

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and new levels give you new stuff

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instead of new stuff giving you new stuff

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so for example if you find a new material

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you might not have the level to use it

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while in my proposition you would have to conduct research on how to refine it

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and then you can use it

upper ocean
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I don't think the only science activity will be scanning stuff (I hope). Conducting research on how to refine something might also give you that experience to refine it

queen halo
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bcs what i'm proposing doesn't have levels

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at all

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it's based on finding new materials, methods to refine them and where to use them

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i don't think you should be able to learn how to make better 3D printers by scanning blackholes

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(which would be the case with level research)

upper ocean
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But Dan said there will be seperate levelling systems for science

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There won't be one blanket science level

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He said in his first message that everything will have a separate science level

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At least

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That's how I interpret it

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If it is a blanket level, then I fully agree with you

queen halo
upper ocean
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But a level that just tracks processing metals for example would come much closer to your idea no?

queen halo
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you don't learn how to refine one material by scanning the other

queen halo
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no levels

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not a all

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there are no levels irl after all

upper ocean
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Of course, but this is a game about exploration, not a science simulator.

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Certain processes that we discovered can also be used for other stuff. In game that could be explained by having reached a certain level.

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When we learned to smelt copper, we reached the "level" of that. With the same techniques we could also smelt other materials that require that same "level"

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As I see it, you and Dan have a lot of the same ideas, it's just that Dan puts the label level on a certain progress and you don't

queen halo
upper ocean
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Not trying to bash your idea btw, because it sounds awesome and you're clearly passionate about it. I'm trying to get it clear for myself

queen halo
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different metals have to be processed in a different way

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and what i'm proposing includes researching more efficient ways to do certain processes

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like "smelting" copper using microorganism in a bioreactor rather than using electrolisys

upper ocean
upper ocean
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Well, I'm looking forward to how Dan's gonna implement it

queen halo
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this ain't a triple A studio, you aren't prohibited from trying something new and interesting

upper ocean
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Hahaha, fully agree

stone trellis
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That does sound like an awesome system, but it also sounds like something that must be handcrafted from top to bottom and galaxy wide.

queen halo
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the only things that you would have to handcraft is minerals and alien tech

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which would have to be hand crafted anyway

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no matter which system you would implement (dan's or mine)

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@cloud locust
hey, could you make a poll asking the community if they would like a system like the one i presented or something more like what you are making rn?

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maybe ppl are willing to wait a bit longer to get a better product

pine sundial
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I see a end game problem, once a group has ground to the top in any system then the rest of the user base will know'how to' and then the exploration becomes , go to this plant, scan this, make this, change this and ta da you are at the top . Rince and repeat
For procedurally generated the number of exotics, like melons ,tachons, quarks, hyper gold, starmix etc maybe should have random levels and progress path for each spawned ship and some items not needed so that there can be no 'read the guide and grind to the top fastest, this time around"
There also needs to be an interlinking between ability to find, research, make and use/ exploit.
This could be limited by consequences, radiation, instability, proximity, decay time, combinations etc that makes understanding, handling and using the new discovery precarious and interlinked with engineering and use. So, material X cannot be near Y but must be contained in Z to be effective and usable in a new upgraded technology.
Once you have the names of a few dozen, then randomly varying the 'levels, the pros and cons and constraints of each with each gives a new exploration path for each spawned instance of a ship and crew.
No two crews can copy the other and they have to proceed carefully and not just grind, experimenting in relatively simple experiments to see what the new thing does till it's properties, pros and cons combinations can be worked out so it can be used in the correct way to make a better widget. That's basic research, careful smell steps.
You could go as far as the element/ mineral could have an effect on the procedurally generated planets look.

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Once you have a few exotics and a few parameters, varying then gives exponential combination possibilities and repeatability/ Replayability.
You could have an exotic that had to be in water to generate heat but if in air then it explodes that sort of thing,

queen halo
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Bro did you get any sleep in the past week? My brain got fried reading this...

static lava
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Well at some point if people want to minmax Starship Simulator and follow guides to "best routes" rather than exploring in an exploration game, you can't stop them
I'd say being able to share amongst the community some good coordinates for certain things can be an incentive for some people to explore if they can be "hey guys, I found a better alternative to the current best known material for xxx purpose at those coordinates !"
People that want to explore by themselves will do so, I don't think forcing randomness on those that prefer following guides is a good idea
Having things set in stone also permits new explorations journey not to reinvent the wheels and stand on what's already known in order to discover new heights

queen halo
queen halo
# pine sundial I see a end game problem, once a group has ground to the top in any system then ...

I got some rest and I managed to understand some of your points. Namely the issue with players speed running best materials. My idea for the science system accounts for this (but it probably ain't gonna be implemented bcs for some reason Dan has a fetish for levels and XP grind). By limiting what kind of materials you can gather with your current drill tech and whether or not you can refine it. This kind of interlinking would prevent players for getting really high tech in a specific area in a short amount of time. It would force em to look for "low tier" materials to get the tech to gather "mid tier" materials and so on.

pine sundial
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Sorry, when my mind goes off on one.....
I've been a roleplayer for 4 decades and a software tester for 2, so I go deep quickly.
Science is technically boring, its incremental steps.
I understand the difficulties but for procedurally generating and replayability from scratch. I guess it makes it a bit rogue lite as well.
I understand the levels and xp as that's way easier to implement and balance but I fear it will all become the background and end up being just a bunch of shortcuts rather than part of the game. It's a fine line between grinds and being given all access.
I do think science should be dangerous, well all fixing, discovering should be dangerous, enough to make players think before just mindlessly FPSing the game.
Maybe once a new resource is found then that resource has to be returned to earth before implementing, to be ok'd by the 'leaders' and then technology grown from the discoveries rather than suddenly available.
I assume they're are rewards for discovering and analysing systems and planets.

queen halo
# pine sundial Sorry, when my mind goes off on one..... I've been a roleplayer for 4 decades an...

Ngl I have the same when designing systems for games.
Hell no, science ain't boring... well it is for most ppl but still many ppl are fascinated by certain fields of it. The role system is in the game for a reason. It allows players to choose what they want to do. What I'm hoping for is that ppl like me who love science get to enjoy a science system as deep as the engineers got to enjoy their electrical grid magic.
Levels and XP is way easier to implement and balance but it will be boring af for science mains.
Hell yeah science should be dangerous, that's half the fun of doing science!
The return to earth thing doesn't make much sense when it comes to approval and stuff. But I do think that if you bring some resources (and sensor readings from for example a black hole), they could design you better fusion reactor or better Alcuberrie drive or a completely new type of ftl drive.

pine sundial
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Thanks, what I meant was that the processes of science can be laborious trial and error or take a thousand readings changing a small value incrementally but that's no different to engineering, check the circuits try a new combination of replace a part to see if it now works.
Science has a grind, the difference is if that grinds triggers endorphins in you but you are right there are people that like that. I love fixing things and getting things working again and exploring topics.
For the 'return to earth' my thinking was that, at some point a distant journeying ship could return to earth after an extended journey and far outstrip home in all areas of science and technology, which does not sit well with me, it makes a home place somehow irrelevant other than that's where you started.

queen halo
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And once you find some interesting correlation you test if it works

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And you either make a breakthrough or nothing happens

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Rather than each rock you retrieve giving you a tiny amount of XP

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Each rock would give you a tiny chance of making a breakthrough

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And that is what I think would make science interesting

dim scarab
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Frankly I'd be happy with the science dance. Just like the repair dance.

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Make the same even

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AAA status right there.

dense prairie
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Both systems sound fun. That said, the devs need to scope the title and then make choices based on that. I'm sure we could come with 5 different equally cool ideas. Bottomline is they can't do all the cool ideas especially with 7 other gameplay experiences to craft.

With that in mind, it makes sense to start fully procedural because that's the fastest/easier and then build on that.

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They'll be in early access for a while too. If it turn out the system isn't fun, its always possible to do a complete overhaul.

versed otter
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Yeah I would not be surprised to see at least one total overhaul between early access and release

dense prairie
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Indeed.

glacial flax
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Do the medical folks (and engineers) do research? Is that done in their own areas or on C deck?

queen halo
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scanning a rock after rock to reach a new level and unlock better tech

small scarab
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I believe it wont just be 'scanning a rock after rock' though, you will be able to scan items, do oceanography, test rock samples, test liquid samples, scan flora and fauna, take samples of both etc. and if that sounds too grindy, then you can work in another department and let the scientists do their thing

queen halo
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which is something i can bet science mains will not really enjoy

small scarab
stone trellis
small scarab
small scarab
small scarab
queen halo
queen halo
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and in fact i am making my own game but it's a different genre

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so your argument is invalid

small scarab
queen halo
small scarab
queen halo
small scarab
queen halo
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you are the one who is using "don't cry" arguments and not even bothering to read what i had to offer