Remove the “No aircraft with symbols linked to tyrannical regimes” rule (Suggestion Rule 5)

[buoyant osprey]

And surprisingly it got mourning reactions

[naive rock]

it’s happened like once or twice now

and I won’t mention their names either

[buoyant osprey]

Twice if we're counting HA & Hanyuu-Pingable issue, thrice if counting Monsoon Cup prize comtroversy as well

[naive rock]

I got one because I fired someone from my airline staff

and then another after I tried applying and the same guy poked fun at me for getting a warn for a separate discussion I had

I really don’t like that guy

[buoyant osprey]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Cant really relate to that since closest I get is my airshow display teammate for Aerokosh giving a last-minute message of pulling out

Other than that, whenever I hold an admin position, I just get along with co-admins who think alike

[naive rock]

I probably can’t care too much about those sorts of positions anymore

[buoyant osprey]

I just take one when necessary

(Like my airshow display team)

Other than that, i just go with the flow

My biggest concern tho is the Aero official server

[naive rock]

same

[buoyant osprey]

There are some of the most stubborn people holding a high-ranking position that even an Oak tree would look like a 5yo's attempt & that's what destroying the community from the inside

But since the only public staff channel is a memes channel, we can't pinpoint who's the asshole

Unless an insider from the staff team peeps on them

[narrow arch]

not as bad as dssIII

[mortal marlin]

once i said here that dssIII staff was bad

and one of them posted it in their server for a joke

was kinda funny ngl

[chilly dagger]

you legitimately confirmed it

Or at the very minimum devs in general have confirmed it

[weary prawn]

It's been confirmed that the problem stems from nazi stuff and not other symbols

Did you know Orange was glorifying the regime, and not just posting suggestions?

And we've had a developer banned in the past for similar things, so it's a sensisitive topic for us

The rule stayed in place to deter future stituations

[onyx epoch]

Would any photo of an aircraft used by the Latvian or Finnish Air Forces taken before 1940 or 1945 still be fine to post here uncensored? (these air forces' roundels had the swastika in them from 1918 to the two aforementioned years)

[lime ember]

I think they both are fine.

They're not referencing nor are from Nazi Germany.

[onyx epoch]

Although they probably are, rule 5 would probably need some clarification and exempt images of Finnish or Latvian Air Force aircraft taken before 1940 (Latvia) or 1945 (Finland) from this.

[chilly dagger]

Okay?
You are going to have Wehraboos, it comes with the territory of being a vehicle based game with Nazi aircraft in it.
Point is people shouldn’t have to censor it here when they can send it uncensored anywhere else, additionally it’s not like this is a a unified and agreed upon thing by the dev team.
It’s a dumb rule and should be removed because it doesn’t even stop wunderwaffe the whole point of the rule.

[onyx epoch]

Wait, he did what?

Glorify the H-man he really did?

[chilly dagger]

I’ve never seen it but imo it looked at least in suggestions
Like he just liked Germany in general

Given there were also WW1 era suggestions

[weary prawn]

So we just accept them and do nothing about it

[chilly dagger]

No, you ban them like you did and don’t punish the community for their actions

[weary prawn]

If you're really so keen on unifying the rule across the server we can just ban it everywhere, but then it's your loss. Because the rule isn't being removed for now

Censoring some symbols in suggestion pictures is punishing?

You're making a huge deal of a small thing

[onyx epoch]

His first Wunderwaffe aircraft suggestion was on April 14, 2024. Then he called for an Me 262 variant with a shit ton of engines. Next day, he suggests the Ba 349 Natter, also a German VTOL that reportedly flew on March 1, 1945 and crashed. Same day, he suggested the Me 323 Zwilling, basically the Me 323 but with wider wings and a shit ton of engines as well.

[weary prawn]

it doesn’t even stop wunderwaffe the whole point of the rule.
That's not the point of the rule -_-

we don't want to stop certain vehicles from being suggested

Then we'd say so specifically

[onyx epoch]

If more German aircraft proposed in the years 1944-45 are suggested, could they end up in the list of rejected suggestions because some of them could be just fictional ones with no documents or any kind of book to prove such projects existed IRL?

[weary prawn]

That's why we have that "project vehicles" part in #rejected-suggestions

[graceful island]

on god i posted a free diddy joke gif and i got warned even tho it was not harmful to anyone and it didnt break any rules

and the mod said it was loose moderation

1984 level censorship from mods

[weary prawn]

If you're think you're a victim make a ticket

[onyx epoch]

I think there should be another thing project aircraft posts should or will probably need to have: sources for stats. This could save devs time and possibly even money (if it involves having to buy some books) when making the stats for them.

[weary prawn]

What kind of person would buy a book to balance a lego game plane

But yeah, I agree with the source part

it's something to consider if it ever gets out of hand

but for now it's good, I think

[graceful island]

already did and it got rejected. im gon make another one

[weary prawn]

[graceful island]

i broke no rules and it was harmless. "loose moderation" bullshit it fits not even loosely under any rule

[weary prawn]

#rules the Preface explains that

Uh oh

[chilly dagger]

In lamens terms:
mods are free to interpret rules how they please

[weary prawn]

If that's how you want to perceive it

[chilly dagger]

Including if it’s not reasonable or widely thought of in the same way the mod is

[weary prawn]

Again, if you think it's unfair from the mod side, make a ticket and other mods / smods will evaluate it

If it still gets rejected, it's very likely your fault

[ashen root]

Already knew that lol

He has said some pretty unhinged stuff

[ashen root]

Not that

Much more stuff that a nazi would say

[mortal marlin]

i don't know much about the context, but wouldn't that be grounds for a ban ?

[weary prawn]

He was asked to stop and he did, but got blacklisted because he kept suggesting those planes

[chilly dagger]

so basically he complied and still somehow ended up with a negative outcome

[weary prawn]

Complied about the glorification part but didn't comply about the suggestions

[vocal nest]

1000 messages, oh god...

[chilly dagger]

he complied with suggestion rules

All of his suggestions recently as far as I’m aware at the very minimum had a mockup made and had blueprints

Which means it isn’t a rejected suggestion

[weary prawn]

The problem wasn't that, it's the nazi stuff

I don't feel like explaining the whole thing

Nor do I need to, it's a moderation issue

[mortal marlin]

i feel like every time i come back here the arguments get more cursed

[chilly dagger]

Well given this isn’t a moderation issue it’s a suggestion issue and dev domain it should be explained

there isn’t a rule against posting nazi aircraft

And what rules are posted
He complied with

[weary prawn]

Mods come into play aswell when stuff gets out of hand

[chilly dagger]

okay?

What does that have to do with the argument at hand?

It never got out of hand as far as I’m aware, it wasn’t like he was posting one every 20 minutes

[weary prawn]

sigh

I don't have time for this

[mortal marlin]

ok i don't like quoting things when i'm not sure about the whole context

but if i was a mod, "glorifying the nazi regime" would be an instant ban, even if the person is following the basic criteria for suggestions

[chilly dagger]

As far as I’m aware in suggestions he was not
Only posted a ton of random nazi projects

But if the issue was glorification and he complied then what? He was asked to tone it down and did

[ashen root]

You know what is sort of funny? He is now running his own flight simulator that has all these Nazi projects

[chilly dagger]

Is he really?

[ashen root]

Yeah

[chilly dagger]

Send me the link I gotta see this

[ashen root]

It happened after he left my dev team and tried to better relations here

[chilly dagger]

lol

[mortal marlin]

from what i understand, here's what has happened :

• nazi swastikas are allowed in #1183405059569094726 for historic purposes
• ppl take advantage of this to promote nazi symbolism
• rule 5 is added
• you folks start nitpicking because "tyrannical regimes" is vague
• rule 5 is edited to specify swastikas

[ashen root]

Sent

[mortal marlin]

case seems closed to me

[vocal nest]

Let's close this topic to put effort on others suggestions ( gib some love/criticism to someone's idea )

[chilly dagger]

Yes
But the point was always to remove it not really get it amended
The amendment to it was a compromise
I do not support the Nazis nor their ideology but history shouldn’t be censored
Then you end up with BF5 and it’s blank red and black banners because they didn’t want to piss the German government off

[mortal marlin]

i'm sorry

i just don't see the problem with censoring swastikas

given how the symbol is almost exclusively used to promote

[mortal marlin]

history shouldn’t be censored
and removing symbols linked to fascist regimes is not an infringement upon the duty of memory

[chilly dagger]

I don’t think you should post a swastika by itself given that well
At that point you are directly promoting the regime
But if it is on an aircraft it shouldn’t be, it adds context to a picture and is a part of history whether you agree with the ideology or not

[mortal marlin]

that context is not immediately essential to the aircraft model suggestion though

since it will not end up in the game either way

here are suggestions for videogame aircraft, not historical archives

[chilly dagger]

True

[devout hornet]

That and since roblox is extremely heavy handed when it comes to that stuff, livery makers wont use it as a reference when making liveries

[chilly dagger]

Fair point

[devout hornet]

That said I do agree with this because I despise getting warned for posting something with a swastika, with historical context, and related to an ongoing conversation

Thats just stupid

[chilly dagger]

agreed

The point is that we are taking something from history and think most people are rational enough to not be swayed by a Swastika on a tail

It doesn’t promote the regime, it just simply says they had this aircraft the aircraft is cool, should be added to game

[mortal marlin]

personally i feel like the rule is good as is

there's no perfect argument of why swastikas should be removed

but there's almost no benefit in not censoring them

this mostly serves to simplify moderation, which i'm all for

[chilly dagger]

[mortal marlin]

with this in place, mods don't have to look at every aircraft featuring a swastika, to see if the person walks the fine line between upholding historical images and upholding questionable political groups

less vagueness in moderation is always positive in my opinion

[onyx epoch]

They can just use an X or a plus sign if applicable.

[devout hornet]

That said because the rule is how it is now I got warmed for posting a picture of either the Bismarck or the Graf Spee because it had the flag of the nazis on her bow

Despite it being related to a conversation at hand

And despite it (the image) being posted for historical reference

While I do agree not changing the rule simplifies moderation I do not like getting warned over historical discourse

[slate otter]

Or just a red stripe/square

[amber sigil]

In a suggestion for adding politics for Aeronautica he said he wanted to be the "Sandris [German title of leader that starts with F]"

[naive rock]

did he get banned?

[weary prawn]

No, he was asked to stop and he did

[naive rock]

aight

[naive rock]

I wanted it to be a silly system but uh

not that.

[frozen comet]

make it so that gas prices change

[mighty kernel]

🔒

[peak storm]

No

[sacred delta]

thats not