#Milkman - Anna Burns

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fringe plinthBOT
fringe plinthBOT
quasi tangle
vast cloud
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My copy arrives soon, planning after Zhivago but that could change

cloud lodge
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i saw it yesterday on the shop and i cannot resist...

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ill get it second hand tho

quasi tangle
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I got a copy on Indie Bookstore Day so I guess I should get cracking because how will I lead this without having read it myself?

desert talon
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Is this your first BR leading event??? I’m so excited I didn’t know you were leading

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Double reason to read dis book

quasi tangle
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Yes this is my first rodeo

quasi tangle
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Started on this last night so I can get a bit of a head start. I think I read too close to bed though and don't remember anything. kekCry

cloud lodge
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Happens to the best of us catCryingOk

frosty zinc
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I on't have a copy yet but I'll get one tomorrow. Commenting because I already lost the thread once haha

quasi tangle
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Today is the official start date, so I assume I will post some introductory thing at some point.

But I'm glad this goes for 60 days. This is a slow read.

fringe plinthBOT
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Hi everyone, welcome to the Milkman Buddy Read! This is HG's first time as a leader so your patience is appreciated while he learns on the job. Before we get going, make sure to check the Content Warnings. The author doesn't really pull punches and we don't want any surprises! Lactose intolerant friends, make sure you've got your Lactaid ready as well. This is Milkman after all. I'm going to add some initial questions below for us to think about. HG will also periodically pose questions for you to answer if you feel so inclined. He'll also give some questions at around the halfway point and near the end.

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Here are some questions to get us started!

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  1. Though Milkman takes place in an unnamed city, we can infer from the author's background and the text itself that the city is meant to stand in for Belfast, Northern Ireland during the Troubles. The most intense years of the Troubles still loom large in the Irish and Northern Irish consciousness nearly half a century later. Many pieces of media besides Milkman directly interrogate the time period including Patrick Radden Keefe's narrative non-fiction Say Nothing and Louise Kennedy's novel Trespasses (both of which were adapted into recent miniseries). Other pieces of media explore the conflict in more oblique ways including TV series Derry Girls. Question: Have you consumed any other media that are set during or deal with the legacy of the Troubles? If so, how do you think this book may complement the knowledge you already have? If not, what are you hoping to learn from this book?
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  1. Before the end of Milkman''s first sentence, we learn the fate of the titular character, namely that he ||is shot dead by "one of the state's hit squads."|| Question: How do you think knowing the milkman's fate from the outset will affect the way you engage with the text?
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  1. The narrator of Milkman, middle sister, is a reader. The fact that she reads while she's out walking causes friction with her community, who view it as non-conformist behavior. Question: In the age of performative reading, celebrities with book clubs, and BookTok, do you think reading can still be considered subversive, non-conformist, or counter-cultural? How and why?
vast cloud
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  1. I know that Ireland has had several periods of unrest and religious conflict but I am not familiar with The Troubles.
  2. Knowing his fate means I’m less likely to focus on plot and more likely on the background and other elements
  3. I read just to read. I don’t really know about the performative side of things, only vaguely.
fringe plinthBOT
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@quasi tangle,@vast cloud,@frosty zinc,@zenith folio,@jolly dagger,@desert talon,@distant tusk,@gilded seal,@mortal hollow,@compact fjord,@languid sparrow,@tardy nymph,@eternal ocean,@grand nova,@sly arch,@tough patrol,@cloud lodge,@frail mulch,@upper sky,@haughty jetty,@sleek ginkgo,@sinful falcon,@ember hemlock

cloud spoke
quasi tangle
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Now we're cooking!

frosty zinc
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  1. I think yes because how else would I have heard of such, but I'm not clear what it was. There's a famous movie I forget the name of that's based on a ||hunger strike||. I didn't research the setting's place or date so wanting to learn more wasn't a factor in wanting to read it.
  2. To be honest, a book's willingness to 'spoil' its plot from the outset makes me more interested in it. I imagine that this book has something to say beyond the plot.
  3. In real life yes, but this is not a particularly fresh choice for the narrator of a book. I think that a narrator who is a non-reader is the more subversive, counter-cultural choice.
mortal hollow
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  1. I know roughly what happened, but dont think I ever read any fiction about it. I think my knowledge mainly comes from Wikipedia.
  2. i did not know that, and now I think that this book is less about plot, and more about the vibes or the characters.
  3. Honestly, I dont think so. And reading being non-conformist feels like a pretty teenage thing to me? Like, being the nerd that reads. But after turning 20, I dont think most people care that much?
distant tusk
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  1. I’m sorry to everyone in this BR as I am about to be the most in this thread kek I am deeply aware of and directly impacted by the troubles and I don’t really shut up about it tbh. I’ve seen movies, read books, I listen to irish patriot songs, and my DNA has been permanently corrupted by these events. So yeah! I’m aware of the troubles kek

  2. Given the format/POV/subject matter of this book I think the milkman is the least important thing going on

  3. I don’t think it was ever any of those things. I think it’s like any other hobby. Where reading becomes more than reading is in education/literacy/accessibility and honestly when it becomes gendered (i.e, young boys not reading as much as young girls). I think we could veer into pretension pretty quickly if we start to label hobbies as subversive.

vast cloud
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I am so ready for you to be much for this BR. A firsthand account of someone affected from all this as part of family heritage is fascinating

quasi tangle
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I suddenly feel deeply unqualified to lead this kekCry
But I'm interested to hear your thoughts, jnix!
I'm nearly finished (maybe 40 pp left) and there are quite a few things I've had to look up and Burns doesn't always call things out by their typically known names.

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So it'll be great to get the perspective of someone who is aware of a lot of these references.

distant tusk
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Noooooo don’t feel that way!!!! I’m by no means an expert, it’s just a subject very close to my heart frogScream

quasi tangle
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I finished last night and am looking forward to discussing and hearing everyone's thoughts.

tough patrol
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Starting this book now! The audiobook was the only version available and just from listening to the first minute or so I’m really enjoying the Irish accent of the narrator.

tough patrol
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Just finished chapter 1
||there are a lot of feelings here that I don’t know if I can even discuss, but i can say my stomach hurt for her as she talked about how her brother-in-law was making lewd remarks to her when she was only 12 years old, and that she didn’t even know what some of it meant except that she realized it was sexual. (This part actually made me want to message my own brother-in-law and thank him for being such a wholesome example of what a man really is, for never disrespecting my sister, or me, or any person he’s ever known.) But this “milkman” who doesn’t deliver milk (so I’m wondering if it’s a code word and he’s like maybe a spy or something 🤷🏻‍♀️) is not only creeping me out, but dang, this girl is only 18, and she’s been trained to not even act like something bothers her if a man isn’t being outright violent or whatever. Seems like women are expected to go along with whatever men do or want to do, without being allowed to express that they are uncomfortable or scared. And it makes me literally feel sick that she can’t even recognize the uncomfortable feelings, her own gut feelings, as being real. I can relate to that very much.
Also, what’s up with the camera clicking from behind/inside the bushes? Maybe he is a fugitive of some sort, or a spy, or someone who’s being watched by a government organization? And he’s trying to act “normal” by pretending that he’s just out for regular walks/runs with this random person? Except why pick someone so young? Does he realize he’s making her uncomfortable? If he does, and he’s pursuing her anyway, then I despise him.
I’m definitely intrigued by what she has to say next.||

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Oh I just realized there are questions up at the top. Okay I’ll try to answer those now before I move on to chapter 2.

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  1. Though Milkman takes place in an unnamed city, we can infer from the author's background and the text itself that the city is meant to stand in for Belfast, Northern Ireland during the Troubles. The most intense years of the Troubles still loom large in the Irish and Northern Irish consciousness nearly half a century later. Many pieces of media besides Milkman directly interrogate the time period including Patrick Radden Keefe's narrative non-fiction Say Nothing and Louise Kennedy's novel Trespasses (both of which were adapted into recent miniseries). Other pieces of media explore the conflict in more oblique ways including TV series Derry Girls. Question: Have you consumed any other media that are set during or deal with the legacy of the Troubles? If so, how do you think this book may complement the knowledge you already have? If not, what are you hoping to learn from this book?

To my knowledge, I have not even heard of the time period called “The Troubles”. I have a friend who grew up in Scotland, and she has described some things that happened in Scotland and Ireland, but I don’t know or can’t recall what that time period was called. So basically I’m going into this blind, I feel slightly bad for being ignorant of the topic, but I love historical fiction that is well-researched, so I am looking forward to learning about a piece of history that i currently know the equivalent of nothing about. Also, I expect that the first-person narration will make it feel …. I don’t know, just, “feel”.

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  1. Before the end of Milkman''s first sentence, we learn the fate of the titular character, namely that he ||is shot dead by "one of the state's hit squads."|| Question: How do you think knowing the milkman's fate from the outset will affect the way you engage with the text?

Hmm. I really couldn’t say, because of lack of knowledge of the political climate there. As of now, if I had to guess, I imagine someone wanted to keep him quiet to keep him from revealing something that he knew, but whether that information would have been harmful or helpful, (quite possibly both, depending on which side you’re looking at it from), I truly have no idea.

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  1. The narrator of Milkman, middle sister, is a reader. The fact that she reads while she's out walking causes friction with her community, who view it as non-conformist behavior. Question: In the age of performative reading, celebrities with book clubs, and BookTok, do you think reading can still be considered subversive, non-conformist, or counter-cultural? How and why?

It’s already clear (from the first chapter) that women and girls are seen as less important than boys and men, so maybe they see her publicly reading as her attempting to do something that they view as not appropriate for girls? I don’t know. But I don’t think she’s trying to be performative about it. She just enjoys reading. I really can’t relate to the social media performative reading thing. I’ve heard of it, but I don’t watch or in any way participate in it. I used to walk to the park next to me and take along a book, a sketchpad, things like that, and just lie in the grass under one of my favorite trees and read or draw. I was not attempting to perform anything, and while most of the people at the same park were walking, exercising, playing a sport, etc, I never felt like anyone was looking at me strangely for choosing such a quiet place to do my favorite hobbies. I don’t know. I feel like I’m not qualified to answer this question (or any of them really) just due to lack of familiarity with the topics.
I do know there are a lot of books that have been banned lately, and there seems to be a movement towards reading those books as some sort of a statement, like maybe a pushing back against the authorities who dare to encroach upon our freedom to read what we wish to read. I don’t know if that would be considered counter-culture, or not. I feel like I’m talking about things I don’t fully understand, so I’ll stop here and let someone who knows what they’re talking about answer these questions. 🫣

tough patrol
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After finishing chapter 2:
(I actually finished this chapter immediately after answering the intro questions 👆🏼 but forgot to come back here and make any notes about it, and then I got sick, so I have probably forgotten some important stuff.)
||I felt relieved that the other brother-in-law will be going on walks/runs with the girl. (Do we know her name? If so, it totally went over my head.) It appears that she hasn’t told him about the possible-stalker guy, and I wonder why she is keeping it to herself. But as mentioned before, the whole social environment doesn’t seem very welcoming for a woman to speak up unless something is “actually happening”, so maybe she feels she shouldn’t mention it. A lot of the chapter was about the almost-boyfriend and the car parts that he keeps inside his house… (is that normal? 🤔) I kind of wonder if he and his friends are in some kind of resistance movement or something like that, and they’re using the trading/auctioning of car parts as a cover. I could be totally off there though. I did notice one of the friends who showed up at almost-boyfriend’s house had issues with whether or not he would have accepted the parts if had the flag on it. I don’t remember what flag it was, but it seemed to denote there’s some kind of tension between at least two sides of something. Two countries?Two factions within the same country? The one friend/acquaintance seems more bothered by it than almost-boyfriend does.
Back to brother-in-law… when he talks to her about reading while walking, I got the feeling that he was saying it as a way of keeping her safe, not implying that it’s not okay to read, but that he feels she might need to be more aware of her surroundings. It seems like he knows something is up, and he seems unbothered by the camera click that happens as they pass by. Is he just accepting it as a part of daily life and doesn’t feel personally threatened? Is he in on something and can’t let her know that he is?||

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Still on chapter 2:
||Shes imagining that maybe they’ve tagged her (whoever “they” are) as being associated with the milkman, even though she’s never initiated any interaction with him, and that now they’re tracking anyone that she is seen with too. It seems she might be afraid that she will be the cause of her brother-in-law being “tagged” or whatever. I wonder why the milkman seems to be trying to get close to her, like what are his intentions, and does brother-in-law already know? The girl’s gossipy mother and the other gossipy ladies aren’t helping at all either. Who would have even noticed something like that and started spreading rumors in the first place? It seems like someone in or close to the family has connections with the milkman and is trying to either stir up trouble or make a distraction.||

cloud lodge
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my second hand copy has arrived!

  1. I do not know what The Troubles are and never heard of them so I´m very interested in learning about, even a base knowledge is good for someone who´s knowledge about it is 0 haha

  2. In another BR knowing the end of the story or halfway made me really invested in finding out how it got to that point, so I´m guessing it´s gonna be the same here!

  3. in a way, I think yes, if you are informing yourself and learning you will always be counter-culture, of course it always depends on what you are reading but in most cases i would say yes

quasi tangle
# tough patrol Still on chapter 2: ||Shes imagining that maybe they’ve tagged her (whoever “the...

I don't know how far are you along but one thing I wondered is if ||BIL's comments about Middle Sister on the first page in some way lead to Milkman thinking she's a viable "target". Or do those comments make the rumor mill really get going once she's seen with Milkman. I don't think it's ever addressed, but being that everyone is so gossipy and always watching in a very insular community, I wonder if the two things that seem unrelated are somehow related.||

tough patrol
# quasi tangle I don't know how far are you along but one thing I wondered is if ||BIL's commen...

Hmmm yeah ||if it’s the older brother-in-law who’s maybe into something with the milkman, he may have put the target on her since he’s already been violating her himself. And maybe the younger brother-in-law is aware of what’s up but since no one talks about actual important things he just tries to stay nearby for protection and encourages her not to let her guard down? And yeah, now that those rumors are out there (potentially even started by the first brother-in-law) I don’t think she’s gonna be able to stop the flood of rumors. Small communities where everyone knows everyone’s business—someone’s got to know who this random milkman is and why he’s hanging around. I just hope he doesn’t end up finding her alone again and actually hurts her.|| I’d better get myself moving on to the next chapter!

tough patrol
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End of chapter 3 AKA longest chapter ever:
||Dang. I don’t even know where to start. I’m fascinated by the narration, and I feel like I’m somewhat following things, but there’s also a gap in knowledge that is causing some things to go over my head. I understand this is taking place in Ireland, but I do not know what the “other” country is that keeps being referred to. And also “the opposite religion”. Are/were there only 2 religions in Ireland? Those are a couple of the things that I feel like I would understand better if I had previous knowledge of the history (or current?) politics in Ireland.
Different topic- I think the real milkman seems like a decent guy, despite people thinking he’s unfriendly. It seems like he’s just unaffected by all the political/social “rules” and isn’t afraid to act on what he believes.
The (very long) side discussion on how feminism kind of got started in her area was really interesting, and I think it’s noteworthy that the real milkman seems to know that something is bothering the narrator and suggests that she might go talk to those women for some help. I wish she wasn’t afraid to speak up for herself. But I get that it’s been ingrained into everyone for so long it’s probably hard to even imagine breaking out of that mold. But shes starting to learn that some people have already broken it, so maybe she will soon.||

quasi tangle
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I think there's a longer chapter still kekCry

quasi tangle
# tough patrol End of chapter 3 AKA longest chapter ever: ||Dang. I don’t even know where to st...

To clarify and for anyone who is unsure, the story is taking place in Northern Ireland (which the narrator sometimes calls "the statelet") and is located on the island of Ireland, but is politically part of the United Kingdom. The "other country" or "the country across the water" is England/the rest of the UK. The "country across the border" is the Republic of Ireland (🇮🇪). When Middle Sister talks about the "Renouncers" and the "Defenders", she's talking about the two groups of paramilitaries fighting at the time. "Renouncers" can be broadly thought of as the Irish Republican Army who advocate Northern Ireland breaking away from the UK and joining the Republic of Ireland. The "Defenders" can be broadly thought of the paramilitaries who are in favor of Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK. Generally, but not always, "Defenders" would be followers of the "other religion" (Protestantism) while "Renouncers" would be followers of Middle Sister's religion, Catholicism. Hopefully that helps.

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"Renouncers" are generally also fighting against the army/police who are allied to the "Defenders" in all but name.

tough patrol
mortal hollow
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One
||There is a lot of information and feelings in just a few pages. I wonder why the narrator calls the milkman milkman if he is not a milkman? (this sentence I just wrote feels off. Anyway.)
The way the narrator already thinks about men at age 18 is so sad. And this is not her fault, but that of the men around her. The husband of the eldest sister, and now this milkman. I wonder if people will get names at some point, or if it will remain this way.
And there is a lot of violence, the narrator seems to dream of another place, another time (hence she only reads older books). But it still feels like something she can not escape, can not fight herself, like an unavoidable background to her life. And then, I dont know which possibilities she would have to escape. Sure she is 18, but I have no idea about how managable it would be to leave the country, or if she would even want to do this.

I am not sure if I like the writing style though. Some parts I like, but there were sentences I just wanted to be a little shorter 🙈 ||

vast cloud
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I’m not sure I will get to this for the BR. Might be too intense for me and I need a break. I plan to read on my own at some point

quasi tangle
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Totally understandable Sparks, it's not a breezy read by any means!

vast cloud
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I just finished Zhivago so I’m a little worn out lol

mortal hollow
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Two

these are super long chapters!

||I am struggling a bit with the language. It sometimes reads like something a child would write, and then there is some slang I dont recognize, and then very big words. And at the same time, I would have been lost without Harlans explanation about Renouncers and countries over the sea etc.
There are so many things happening, too! Overall, I got a sense of suffocating in this community, because everyone is gossiping. and it is not only conservative/religious worldviews that could endanger the narrator (because of her boyfriend, or the milkman gossip); but also very deadly consequences if someone gets into trouble politically. It also does not feel like the narrator is on someones side or has a strong opinion about which country she should belong to? (or maybe I have misinterpreted something here)
I was a bit confused how important that reading-while-walking was to her and brother-in-law; is that something symbolic? Her not watching the conflicts around her as much as she should be? or is this community that insular and gossipy that someone reading while walking is such a big deal?
Another thing that added to that feeling of suffocating in a community was the treatment of men who like to cook. Such a small deviation from the "norm" and still something that gets talked about. (and tbh I have always thought it so weird that the strong, manly man is supposed to starve if not for the help of women) ||

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pretty sure this will be a slow read for me. It is interesting, but it feels a bit like a chore to get through. 🙈

mortal hollow
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I am so very slowly making my way through Chapter 3. Will share a big blob of thoughts once I managed that. But like I said above, this is such a slow read. Maybe this is also due to me spending a lot of brain energy at work currently... the topics and ideas here are so important! but then I can only manage like 20 pages in the evening and am tired again 🙈

quasi tangle
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No, you're right. It's a slow read. Like "slow paced" on SG seems too fast.

frosty zinc
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Started this (finally lol), the narrator is strange in that she explains things directly that you'd expect a book to let you get by inference.

frosty zinc
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Through ch 2

||So I think that speech is a major topic of the book. What they are allowed to speak about politically and what they aren't and how speech can cause real harm, both politically and to someone's reputation.

I think the intent with the over-explanation is that it's the narrator's attempt to regain power in words over the events she describes. In the narrator's 'real life' she isn't trying for power. She's resigned. She walks around reading 19th c books, doesn't have a political goal, and doesn't stand up to men. The over-explanation allows her 'inner life' to name the thing and thus get imagined power over it that she doesn't have in 'real life'.||

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||The reading and the avoidance of inserting the reading content (we just get the titles) into the monologues is another way to get power via words, but it's the opposite. The narrator is separating her books (19th c) from the situations she describes (20th c). She will not say that 'such and such in The Overcoat eminds me of this,' instead we just get the book titles. The separation gives her something that belongs to her outside of the monologue, she has power over it because she fails to mention it.||

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Danger in reading 2 chapters of something and trying to write broad strokes about it

frosty zinc
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Through Ch 3. This is academically polished but I'm finding it really, really dull. I wish the POV was older.

frosty zinc
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Through Ch 4. Might have lost steam on this tonight, I put it down and started looking at cookbooks.

frosty zinc
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Ch 5-6 ||Feel like this is breaking with realism lol, maybe it's supposed to be funny. I'm not looking forward to the next 100 pages. The previous 100 pages at least there was hope that it'd mature into something I'd like better. I really wish the POV was older.||

quasi tangle
frosty zinc
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Made it up to pg 271 and I think I'm going to dop this, it got too silly

mortal hollow
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Chapter 3
Okay wow, this was a loooong chapter.
||This gave me the weird feeling of there being both a lot of topics and a lot of repetition? Hard to describe.
This reeks of paranoia on every page, the narrator is barely using names, and it feels like she does this to obfuscate who she is talking about. And her paranoia is reasonable. People are talking, and people are dying. She has her ways to try to not think about this, to escape into books, but it does not work out.
I like how it shows the different roles of men and women in this, and how patriarchy harms both men and women. The men have very narrow roles to fit into, but still hold more power. But also become victims of violence.
It feels hard to place this at a specific time, from what we learn about the world they live in. There are barely mentions of popular music or brands of car or food or whatever.
Overall, it sadly still feels like a chore to read. I think this book is very clever in a lot of what it does. I sometimes have problems with the language, mostly because it seems to switch between childish and very educated. The thoughts, too - sometimes relatively naive, sometimes like the narrator retells this time from a much later point. And I think that is the case, that this is a narrator that tries to get into the mindset of an 18-year-old. It reads liek a stream of consciousness sometimes, with how repetetive it is, and how it switches through topics. And barely using any real names to show the paranoia feels clever, too.
But. And I feel bad for saying this. All of this does not make for an enjoyable read. Sure, calling them maybe-boyfriend or real milkman tells me something about her paranoia, and how even she prescribes roles to everyone around her, how she watches and judges, because this is what she learned. ||

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||but still: it starts to annoy me so much. I started rolling my eyes every time I read another repetitive sentence about maybe-boyfriend and hoarding and cars. Yeah I think I get why. Yes it is clever. And look I dont want every book to just be action and on-the-nose. This is not what I mean. Just that the stylistic choices start to annoy me.
The topics are important, it is a bleak time, maybe the repetetiveness of the book mirrors the hopelessness and feelings that nothing will ever change.
But it is still annoying to read. At least to me. Aw man.
I will continue. And I am afraid that I did not get my point across or seem like someone who only wants easily digestible books. idk man :D||