Train to Pakistan - Khushwant Singh

[jade junco]

From <t:1744243200:D> to <t:1748736000:D> | Leader(s): @obtuse furnace

Book Link
Cover: https://cdn.thestorygraph.com/3sae6u6hbdhuhmucd9x74t3oh4zx

ID: 67ded486274f165cc8263537
Announcement: #buddy-reads message

[nocturne stratus]

[plain roost]

[obtuse furnace]

[silent wave]

oh wow hello

[jade junco]

@obtuse furnace,@elder wagon,@floral cipher,@plain roost,@oak bloom,@odd shadow,@silent wave,@nocturne stratus,@heady shell,@worthy osprey,@void delta,@unreal ice,@turbid harness,@remote moss,@raven bolt

Hello and welcome to this buddy read for Train to Pakistan. I am so exsited that you all wanted to read this book with me. I am really hoping you all will like and love this book as much as I do.

So before we start, even tho this buddy read officially started on Friday. I would like to start off with some questions.

1. What do you know about the Partitation of India?
2. Have you read alot of Indian books before?
3. What made you want to read this spesific book?

I am so exsited for reading and seeing what everyone thinks about this book. Hoping you all will enjoy. Do please remeber to mark with || before and after spoilers and mark clearly where to it is spoilt to.

Happy (or maybe more cry) read everyone

[elder wagon]

1. i know that it’s one of the aftermaths of british colonisation and i understand that the division is mostly religious? correct me if i’m wrong though
2. no, i prefer watching bollywood although not often. i actually saw a really good movie about the partition last year called raazi starring the very beautiful alia bhatt
3. i wanted to read more about the partition

[floral cipher]

1: I had no idea India had a partition.
2: I haven’t read any, to my knowledge
3: it seemed interesting

[obtuse furnace]

Nops you are correct that it was mostly religious.

[elder wagon]

big brain moment /lh

very excited for this br, thank you for leading it avialia 🤍

[obtuse furnace]

Honestly I am hoping you all will love it as much as I do.

[low harness]

Honestly I am
hoping you all will love it
as much as I do.

- littlesuperme

[obtuse furnace]

Plus if I can get people to read more Indian books then that is also a bonus

[oak bloom]

1. Fun fact, history was my most skipped class in school! (The answer is nothing)
2. I don't think so, tho I have watched some Bollywood movies in my youth
3. It's short, and it made someone in OBC cry. I swear I'm not sadistic, I want to see a book that could have that impact on someone

[elder wagon]

sorry if this is a weird question to ask, but are you ethnically indian? just curious!

[silent wave]

1. yes
2. nope not at all, even tho im indian
3. the reason ive never read indian books

[void delta]

1- Due to British colonization , both Hindus and Muslims were affected and many differences started between them .
After the Urdu Hindi controversy in 1867 , people were torn into two sides , one demanded Hindi to be the official language while the other demanded should be . Many people were murdered or treated badly
Then east India company gave British to control the subcontinent which gave rise to forming two major political parties in the subcontinent.
Before 1867 most of the Muslims were trying to ease the tension and many leaders were in favour of the joined state without any separation which led in many talks among the leaders to fight against the British together .
But after 1867 , they lost faith and were determined to get a separate nation , this step started with Hindus supporting the Indian national congress party in 1985 and Muslims making their own party which was named All India- Muslim league in 1906 .

Two nation theory which was proposed by sir Sayed Ahmed Khan said that even though Hindus and Muslims are living together for several centuries , they have different priorities on the basis of culture , religion and language and now Muslims demand a separate nation because they are not getting the same opportunities and can sense the unfairness . Also so they can practice their religion in peace and harmony without the extremists trying to jump on them .
So when in 1940s when the British felt like now these both communities are not going to back up they have to pack up and leave ( lol) , partition as the quickest and most pragmatic solution to avoid potential civil war. So in August 1947 the subcontinent was divided into two nations - India and Pakistan
( East Pakistan - current Bangladesh , West Pakistan - current Pakistan ) The two regions were around 1,000 miles apart, with India in the middle.

2- this will be my first .
3- interested in learning about new perspectives

[floral cipher]

Starting today! Good timing that I just finished my other book and barely started a new one.

I told my husband that this is an emotional book and I might need support. He said “I’ll go get some 2x4s” 🤦

[turbid harness]

1. I do know a bit as my fam’s always been the kind to discuss histories and stuff so I do have quite a bit of bg knowledge plus the info shared by minz here has been helpful
2. I’ve read a few namely The God of Small Things (obc br), Tomb of Sand (another obc br) and The Henna Artist (which is written by an ethnically Indian artist and covers pre-partition India). I can’t recall any others I may have read
3. I want to explore more of southeast asian literature

[nocturne stratus]

1. i know nothing :(
2. very few, trying to change that
3. its a short-ish classic about a topic i dont know and am interested in :)

[void delta]

I was outside and missed some info so I kinda edited when I got back home ( there were a lot of spelling errors too )

Also, anyone can correct me if I'm wrong in it. respectfully

For more info you can also read this
https://www.itv.com/news/central/2022-08-12/what-was-partition-and-why-does-it-matter

[obtuse furnace]

I have also read both those two first, Tomb of Sand with obc, the other (and every other Indian book) myself

[obtuse furnace]

I need this kind of support in my life

[floral cipher]

So I’m realizing that the partition was creating Pakistan, is that correct? So India used to be bigger?

[obtuse furnace]

India used to be Bangladesh, India and Pakistan

Bangladesh used to be east Pakistan

[floral cipher]

Oh, so that’s what happened to Bangladesh

[obtuse furnace]

Me knowing what will happen, I started reading it again. And I read less than a page before tears came

[floral cipher]

This book is a bit intense and I have to DNF, I am very sensitive

[obtuse furnace]

I am sorry to hear that. I do understand tho, for some people it can be a bit too much

[silent wave]

CWs for this one

[elder wagon]

i cant find a copy of this on google play books so hm i dont know how ill be able to read this i shouldve checked first

[oak bloom]

Assuming you want to avoid amazon - I tried to help!

It is available on kobo:
https://www.kobo.com/us/en/ebook/train-to-pakistan-2 (Might not be available in your region, but worth to check!)

It is also available on ebook.com
https://www.ebooks.com/en-us/book/95807740/train-to-pakistan/khuswant-singh/

I also found it on a store called Roli books which seem to be an indian book store that is surprisingly in english?
https://rolibooks.com/product/train-to-pakistan/

It also seem available on something called Hoopla, I'm unfamiliar with this service but it seems legit. It claims they're library books
https://www.hoopladigital.com/ebook/train-to-pakistan-khuswant-singh/11520239
(I looked it up, it seem to be a similar thing to Libby. The difference being that Libby is curated by the indivdual libraries while Hooply the libraries just need to sign up to? I'm unsure if this will then be available as it seems to still be dependent on your library or country)

It's weird because penguin claims the ebook should be on google play, but I only find the audiobook version of it

[elder wagon]

omg thank you so much dot! ill check those out when i get back home

[oak bloom]

I started this, and I'm 10% into it and I think this alone is going to be very controversial with people.

I also feel like this should come with a glossary at the end of the book

[obtuse furnace]

Chapter 1: daicoty Around 15 pages in||Like I know this is brutal, like of course I know it is. Yet I can never get over just how we start RIGHT at essential a murder and a ... scene... Just, it breaks me. For many reasons||
21: ||I never do like how they say that as Hindus they will never lay hands on women, and that Muslims don't have that respect. And then, they say that still women are weaker sex.
Like do Hindus feel they doing the weaker sex a favor by NOT hitting women? Like in the Hindu man pov||
36: Quote ||Morality is a matter of money, poor people can not afford to have morals. So they have religion||
52: ||Being arrested for something you or rthey don't even know what for. It guys me for some reason that these kind of things are still in some places considered a default and can be deemed ok.||

I am taking my time with this book now. Started the book a while ago, but have not really been in the mindset for the emotions this book makes me feel

[unreal ice]

I will start this soon! Just finished my last read so now this one is up next

[nocturne stratus]

starting

ch1 ||making love???? buddy that was rape???? ||

[nocturne stratus]

ch1 pg 29 ||death to rapists and those that sell their daughters to them amen||

||why does the author keep using the word love making for rape? its not putting a good light on the guy not gon lie||

[obtuse furnace]

||to me it was always read as the men in the story not knowing the difference between love and rape||

[oak bloom]

|| In an technical sense, you are correct. However.. in some cultures, having pre-martial sex is really vilified. It is seen so unacceptable and shameful that a certain culture springs up where a women feel like they HAVE to resist and say no. That doing so is the right thing to do, and makes it less shameful. That's kind of how I read what happened between Nooran and Jugget. SHE was the one who said she thought it was love. And there were several clues that nodded toward that not only wasn't this the first time but also "She could not struggle against Juggut Singh’s brute force. She did not particularly want to."

Atleast in the first scene. It's why I think this book is going to be so controversial. Even in the so-called "west" this behavior was fairly common in our grandparents age. (And the book was published in 1956) It is why, in my generation, we had to start a campaign that said "no means no". Because for a very long time, no sometimes didn't mean no. And when men were told they were supposed to not listen when we said no, how were they to tell when we really did not want to? It isn't entirely gone from our culture either, there are still women who complain that a man stops pursuing her after she turns them down. That he was supposed to show his desire for her by harassing her with repeat attempts. I'm fairly glad that I'm actually seeing (even) men ridicule this behavior when they encounter it these days. No really should mean no.

Of course, there is also a question of power and status, I haven't gotten very far in the book but Juggut called himself a "badmash" which apparently means he's a Bad guy / Criminal / Ruffian. But at the end, he proclaimed that nobody would dare touch her which might be a nod toward that he does actually hold some power in the little village. If that's true, Noonan might simply feel she has no choice, you cant say no to a man like that, so she shows up.

An additional problem, is that in the cultures where having pre-marital sex is seen so shameful, that rape cases rarely get actually reported. Note how she said her father would kill her for this tryst. Which indicates SHE'D be blamed, not Juggut. Both of these things, will add to the culture of men not holding themselves accountable for this behavior and thinking they do no wrong.

So, it is rape, but in reality it probably is far more complicated than we'd like to accept. And I don't think it's a.. personal fault? of the author. If anything, the fact he showed how mean/cold Juggut was, and the disbelief Noora felt when she saw that meanness, showcases that the author saw it as a problematic element in their culture imo. (Also the turnaround when juggut went back to begging her to show up the next night 🙄) ||

[nocturne stratus]

||i never knew this. thats fucked up||

[nocturne stratus]

kalyug 58% || "mothers, sisters, daughters he did not leave one out" what does this mean? it threatened to rape innocent women for something the man did? ||

[nocturne stratus]

||oh wow it was. i hope jugga died horribly! kill all rapists amen||

[nocturne stratus]

mano majra 66% ||jesus h christ if any of these people ever existed they going straight to hell same day shipping. Islam teaches to honour women, but too many fake muslims dont..||

[oak bloom]

17% - Dacoity
|| "The Government is talking to you" I wonder what the original word used here is, and if the translation choice is accurate or if it's an there-isnt-a-proper-word-for-it kind of deal. I obviously get what they meant with it but it looks a little funny in english.

Also "She has never been near a man before. I have reared her for your honour's please" and the way the girl doesn't seem to really realize that she's been sold at first ||

[nocturne stratus]

ending ||oh, so jugga sacrificed himself at the end for the train to go through. perhaps the only good thing hes done :D||

i think im going to read spark notes or something to make more sense of this, since i dont know jack shit about what happened really in 1947

[oak bloom]

28% - Dacoity
Things I had to look up -
||

Politically they are the world's biggest four-twenties.
Apparently a reference to a type of caliber of a gun the British used (.420 bore), basically saying they're the big dogs.

"Whatever you say is right to the sixteenth anna of the rupee."
Refers to the Indian currency system before 1957. One rupee was divided into 16 annas. Basically: precisely or completely accurate, down to the smallest unit of currency.||

[oak bloom]

|| Maybe? I don't think he was talking about rape at first. I think it was just insults that escalated. We went from insults > settle score > rape. I think if he were using rape from the start the author wouldn't have used so many different ways of describing it. They also seem very sensitive to trash talk, the author has repeatedly called it abuse when a character does it

I'm not very experienced with either Hindu or Urdu as a language, if they were speaking Arabic I'd be more confident because I know Arabic has some FIERCE and very insulting insults about family to throw at people. ||

[oak bloom]

68% - ||"mother, sister and daughter" what is this, a universal rape slogan?||

[oak bloom]

I finished.
|| I'm.. unsure how I feel about this? It was a very different novel than what I was expecting. I also felt like it barely really touched on the event the book was supposed to be about. The first 70% was mostly just about various forms of SA.

I loathed that Hukum Chand was aware enough to feel guilt over the girl, but still intended to rape her. (I don't think he actually did right? they got interrupted).

It was more about the different cultures, and throwing in Iqual as an outsider perspective. I liked the conversation they had about what they would gain if they got freedom, that for them there would be no change so they didn't care. Thats something I relate to.

I'm also beginning to believe that India/Pakistan just think anything involving intercourse is making love? The final scene of the newly married woman who hadn't seen her husband naked was thinking about her bangles and then

The mob made love to her. She did not have to take off any of her bangles. They were all smashed as she lay in the road, being taken by one man and another and another. That should have brought her a lot of good luck!
Excuse me? THEY DID WHAT???

I also worry that the blurb said "It is also the story of a Sikh boy and a Muslim girl whose love endured and transcends the ravages of war."
Like, I talked about the rape scene between them earlier and how it isn't as black and white but that line.. transcends the ravages of war?
They had sex, he didn't tell the police he was with her, and then he died for her at the end but EVERYTHING INBETWEEN was not about them at all

I felt like this was an incomplete novel. I felt like the beginning was showing us a peaceful life getting interrupted, and showing us how they lived together. But then, they never showed us the terrible things that happened. They told us bad stuff happened, but it didn't happen to any of the characters in the book. Other than the reflections at the end of characters we have no idea who were.

I wished Iqbad was never arrested, and we saw him lecturing villages as they slowly turned poisonious against each other, and his despair at seeing him incapable of bringing the peace he wanted. I wished we saw Noona get on the train, and got told how that train arrived in Pakistan. I wanted to hear how the train got attacked, and people died, and maybe she did to, or maybe she survived. A la the titanic or something. If this was supposed to be part love story, I wished Juggut actually showed any kind of affection for Noona instead of that single moment when he begged her to show up for sex again. It felt so anticlimatic that we never got to see any of that actual unrest.

An OUTSIDER came to the village, not even an refuge, an outsider, and demanded they take up arms against the other side. There was a single young guy who was hot headed, but there wasn't a single person among them that thought badly about the muslims and even felt bad about telling them to go.

I wished we followed the Inspector around, as he inspected the train carriages full of dead, and how he prepared their funeral and all the things he did.
Instead of his boss sitting in his mansion feeling neglected and sad because his SERVANTS hadn't started a bath for him before he came home.

There are so many ways the author could have portrayed this, and I feel like he didnt take proper advantage of it. If it was non-fiction, I could forgive it, because reality is rarely as entertaining, brave or action-filled as fiction. But I didn't walk away from this book feeling anything about the summer of 1947. The only thing they really taught me was that men in that region and period of time liked to rape people and that Sikh aren't as peaceful of an religion as I thought. ||

[nocturne stratus]

yeah agree w u

i thought i just didnt grasp what the book was trying to say lol

[oak bloom]

My best guess is that he was trying to showcase that the horror both impacted and influenced previously peaceful easygoing citizens that were nothing but farmers and such. And how easy one could turn against their neighbors (even tho they didnt really do that)

most people assume that atrocities in war is made by soldiers, hot headed younger people easily prey to propaganda, racists and bigots. Not the smiling grandfather next door.

[nocturne stratus]

also yes ||the amount of rape in it was NOT needed. i think just the once was fine? if it provided some context or whatever, but it kept going and going and going and GOING...||
||i dont understand hukum's character at all. is he supposed to be seen as a good guy seeing he never raped the girl, but still sexually assaulted her? i didnt understand the point of that at all. maybe to show how bad the government is..? but that goes back to my earlier statement yk||

spark notes doesnt have Train to Pakistan

[oak bloom]

||

He did so with a clear conscience. Although he accepted gifts and obliged friends when they got into trouble, he was not corrupt. He occasionally joined in parties, arranged for singing and dancing - and sometimes sex - but he was not immoral
I highly doubt that was supposed to be a "good" guy, delusional definitely.

And idk, the girl thing was so weird.. like he compared it to his daughter the moment he saw her, and then went on a vicious rant about how she was a prostitute so it didn't matter. The only reason he didn't rape her, is because of the murder in the village and the police people came and interrupted him. And the second time, he was traumatized by a train of dead bodies so he used her as a human blanket. It was after that he suddenly saw her as a human being deserving any kind of respect. But to me, it felt like such a huge self-insert for his dead daughter. Now that he had taken comfort from her, he wanted to continue. But he wanted her to sit on his lap ~ like a child.

It is just.. if she was an actual prostitute, I would be fine(er) with it. But she clearly didn't realize it at the beginning. When he was inappropriate with her at first, she looked back at her family several times, looking to see if they were okay with it or if they'd save her. Imagine the horror? Slowly realizing your family is allowing this man to do whatever he wants to you and you're most likely supposed to have sex with him

If he was ANY level of supposed to be good, surely he would have stopped as she sat there frozen and terrified of him||

[nocturne stratus]

wait. ||we never even learned who murderered ram lal?? 😭||

[oak bloom]

You must have missed it, || it was Malli and jugguts' other ex-friends, the crew that got prisone? but then let loose? Yeah, that was just police being corrupt. They wanted Malli loose for.. some reason that had to do with getting the muslims to leave? I didnt quite understand the logic behind the scheme but it was basically that. They didnt care who murdered him.

In sheer exasperation, one of the men lunged at the crouching figure with his spear. Ram Lal uttered a loud yell and collapsed on the floor with blood spurting from his belly.
^ him getting killed

‘Dakoo! Do you know them?’ the girl asked in a whisper.
‘Yes,’ Juggut said, ‘The one with the torch is Malli.’ His face went tight.
^Juggut and Noona seeing the criminals leaving the village ||

[nocturne stratus]

oh ||i thought it was said that malli never did it||

[oak bloom]

yeah, everyone denied it when accused

[nocturne stratus]

oh

[oak bloom]

😂 to be fair, nobody was really trying to solve it, so we didn't get any narrative of people trying to figure it out

it was all just doing the bare minimum to look good on paper

[nocturne stratus]

lmaooo true

[silent wave]

i just bought this book

[unreal ice]

I'm having trouble w chp 1 it's so long

[silent wave]

same LMFAO

[oak bloom]

to be fair, the entire book is only 4 chapters 😂

[nocturne stratus]

not even chapters its just 4 parts

[oak bloom]

While rare, some books do not number their chapters
tho, they did call part 1 chapter 1 on my ebook edition. but part 2 got the name so it wasnt exactly formated very well

[unreal ice]

I know right! Such a struggle

[atomic rover]

1- As usual it was the British, to be honest the knowledge came from a 4 minute ted video.
2- no unfortunately tho I'm hoping to chnage that
3- i needed a short read that was interesting and this fit.

[atomic rover]

preach.

48 pages in (epub format) - thought this book was going to be much lighter than it is (i very evidently did not read the cw) however i have become attached to it so i will finish it. Couple points:
||1- the attack in the village was so cruel man these villagers work day and night for barely anything and you STEAL from them, like go rob a politician or something damn.
2- that was a rape scene and i was shocked. Also the girl is 16?! In the book the man is described as 6 foot something like a 'stud bull', this reminded me of the fact that he used his body weight to pin her and hold her down. She also continually is worried about her SAFETY. This is a traditional village and it's obvious that he knows the implications of a young girl being unchaste because he worries for her. However, no man who loves you would hold you down and no man who worries about your safety would want to become reason for your demise. All in all dude f u.||

||3- The position of women in these types of conflicts is always being the victim of sexual crime. You hate Hindus but like them enough to rape their daughters, you are disgusted by Muslims but would have no trouble ripping their sisters clothes of. Sikhs are dirty but their mothers are clean enough to rape. Men may think rape trivial or that it's not a big deal, but they also think it's the scariest threat and worst punishment to a woman. Not once do they threaten women with death, only rape.||

[oak bloom]

you should add spoilers!

[atomic rover]

I AM SO SORRY. 😭

[oak bloom]

I've finished the book so its no big deal 😂 but it'll bebetter to cover it up before more people see it

[atomic rover]

Ur right my bad. 😔

[jade junco]

@obtuse furnace,@floral cipher,@plain roost,@oak bloom,@odd shadow,@silent wave,@nocturne stratus,@heady shell,@worthy osprey,@void delta,@unreal ice,@turbid harness,@raven bolt,@maiden river,@atomic rover

Hey everyone 👋 this buddy read is due to finish next week but please let me know if you need an extension to be able to get to this 😊

Currently reading: Avialia? thebaddestidiot
Finished: iggy, Peridot

[silent wave]

i will continue this today

[unreal ice]

I FINALLY FINISHED CHAPTER 1

||Juggut seems like a genuine man who is trying to get by, but just doesn't have the means (or privilege) to do so.

Like idk, how people will steal things necessary for survival because they can't afford it

And Iqbal seems cool lol
Aside from the blatant racism, it sucks sooo bad when people wrongfully accuse you of something but you're literally just an innocent chill guy I don't like Inspector Sahib, that guy's on a power trip fr

The torture tactics are crazy too tf||

[turbid harness]

I'd love an extension but if that isn't possible, I'll be okay I think

[plain roost]

4~ week hold remaining

[heady shell]

do you need an extension? 👀

[plain roost]

perhaps

2 copies to pass around and Im 4th in line

[heady shell]

if you and Hanzy just let me know how long you'd need then I don't mind extending

[unreal ice]

Ch 2, Kalyug
||I feel a bit iffy about Hukum Chand, but I think it's sweet that he looks down on Haseena like a daughter. I hope he protects her and can care for her.

There's an inch resting friendship between Juggut and Iqbal in the prison cells I think they'll end up helping eachother out later on... maybe they'll become good friends ||

[turbid harness]

I could do with two weeks but if Pi-ne Beetle needs longer, I’m fine with that too

[oak bloom]

I feel like spicy is reading a different book than me

[oak bloom]

|| what do you mean like a daughter!? He almost raped her, and is constantly going "Oh she reminds me of my daughter.. BUT SHES A PROSTITUTE SO IT DOESN'T MATTER! I'll still use her!" The only reason it didn't happen was simply luck. ||

And, then I'm assuming you've finished the Kalyug chapter, ||at the end the only reason he finally stopped desiring her was because he was so shocked over the trains content that he was scared and wanted comfort but a man of his status couldn't show that to neither his servants or his coworkers so he literally put her in as an replacement. ||

[unreal ice]

Yeah, we have different feelings from this chapter. Haseena is in a ||scary situation, and Hukum Chand is reflecting on it with mercy, I thought that was worth noting and felt relieved by it lol

I'm not sure if the only reason he stopped desiring her is because of the trains, I actually found a lot of things from this chapter that felt merciful and kind.

He thinks

How could he have done anything to this child? If his daughter had lived, she would have been about the same age. He felt a pang of remorse. He also knew that his remorse and good resolutions went with the hangover. They always did. He would probably drink again and get the same girl over and sleep with her -- and feel badly about it. That was life, and it got depressing.

He later thinks

He could not analyse his feeling except that he wanted to make up for her. If she wanted to be slept with, he would sleep with her. The thought made him uneasy.
I took this as a "I don't really want to do it, but I'll do it if you want me to" and it was kind of him to put her feelings first before his

When Haseena wake up, she says she wants to go home, he offers to send her home and to feed her. She makes a playful joke that she won't eat if he doesn't eat, so he eats breakfast to make her eat as well lol and they chat a bit

And then

He did not want to sleep with the girl, or make love to her, or even kiss her on the lips and feel her bidy. He simply wanted her to sleep in his lap with her head resting on his chest.
It's giving father-daughter bond, yknow?

He even asks her to go home and be safe during all the violence and the last we see of them is

"What is money?" he said with mock gallantry. "I am ready to lay down my life for you."||

[oak bloom]

||weell, yes. But that was afterward yknow? It felt a little bit "too little too late". I mean, it wasn't like he did a complete turnaround right? He was comparing her to his daughter from the very beginning.

And he was so shaken by the dead people on the train, he basically had a tiny mental breakdown. And then plotted how he could not be alone. He had even forgotten about her. Surely, if he had any degree of care for her, he would have remembered she was ordered, and known he wouldn't need to make a smart plot to get the servants to be close at night.

"Hukum Chand put his arm round her waist. He stroked her thighs and belly and played with her little unformed breasts."
^ that happened, on that night. Before he fell asleep.

Idk, I feel like I'm harsh on him because he was aware that what he was doing was wrong from the very beginning, and he didn't care then. He only cared after she had seen him vulnerable, by accident. After he had gotten shocked and seen true evil, and true death, with his own eyes. That's the kind of thing that makes someone want to suddenly turn good to make sure they don't go to hell (or their version of it). I have 0 pity for people who only try to be good when there are imagines stakes.

Also how is "If she wants to sleep with me, we'll do it" giving you father-daughter vibes?

I do like that you're getting a completely different vibe than me. I hope I don't sound combative about it.

Of course, I agree that this is a much better outcome than what he originally intended

I'm looking forward to you finishing ||

[unreal ice]

Yeah makes sense! Like, I do have the same feelings of disgust as you do, I just didn't voice them or feel them as strongly as my other feelings.

Maybe it's me being overly-empathetic, or maybe it's me being in situations like Haseena ||where I know that I've been saved from a traumatic experience by some merciful thought of the perpetrator. I feel grateful for those small chances of luck, and when I see it happen to others too it's like "OH MY GOD" and then for Hukum Chand to further want to keep her safe, feed her, send her home, lay down his life for her, and to make it up to her, if she accepts that from him then that's great!

I think maybe you're seeing me as being a rape-apologist, and that's why you feel so strongly against what I've said. And I 100% believe you should attack me like that if I was LMAO but I'm not trying to apologize for what Chand was going to do, my feeling through this chapter is the relief of him switching sides and protecting her. Idk if you've ever been in a situation like that, hopefully not, but personally, all feelings of disgust go out the window and you're kind of just in fight or flight mode. Being spared extra time or a chance to escape feels like a godsend in that position

And I think maybe you misread my message but I said it gives father-daughter vibes after he said he didn't want to sleep with her! Not about the "if you do it I will" ||

[oak bloom]

Oh no! I didn't think you were being a|| rape-apologists,|| just a nicer person than me

|| My intent was also not to attack you, so I'm sorry if thats how it came across ||

[unreal ice]

No you're good! I didn't take it negatively but I know where you're coming from and def support that!

[nocturne stratus]

so im finally reading some "sparknotes" for this (its on something called litcharts instead) and in part 1 Dacoity apparently ||when Singh kept talking about how bad the heat was in the book it was a metaphor for the intensity of tensions between the relgious groups like bruh i cant do this shit metaphors go over my head, i have no idea how to catch them im too short ||

idk percents since the book is long gone sorry
Dacoity ||"Chand’s use of a prostitute is more evidence of his corruption. However, his exploitation of women is something that he shares in common with Jugga, who makes love to Nooran in a way that is not reciprocal." thats called rape 💀 i know i already said it but like why even this other spark notes wanna dodge the word bro||

[oak bloom]

I got this one, because|| he is using both his status and probably government money to pay for her. It was also said in the book, that he sometimes arranged girls for other officials when he hosted parties and such. And it very much had the undertone of "this was illegal and hush hush" ||

[nocturne stratus]

o wow! Kalyug ||i admit i didnt google quite a few words in this book thinking i could figure it out using context, but i didnt realise hijras are transgender, intersex and eunuch people. i also like this bit in the litchart: "The point of this is to demonstrate that, if one cannot tell if someone is one thing or another, what, then, does it matter?" man you would THINK...||

[oak bloom]

Really? In my book, hijras was one of the only things they explained. Tho, it was written as [hermaphrodites] after the word which isn't quite the same as transgenders

I had to google everything else.
I really liked the word Badmash

[nocturne stratus]

i cant quite remember but i think mine wasnt explained too much, i thought they were just cross dressers lol

[unreal ice]

I feel like this is such a reach 💀

Me, sweating my ass off in the summer: "ah yes, this summer heat really symbolizes the tension between me and my coursework" 🥵

[oak bloom]

to be fair, it is a very common metaphor.
tho I wouldnt be surprised if it wasn't just.. the weather during the actual real event

[nocturne stratus]

Kalyug ||its crazy jugga compares white women to angels and Indian women to black buffaloes. how the fuck does he see Nooran then tf. and we supposed to believe he loves her||

[oak bloom]

||I felt like, there was 0 indication he thought of her as anything other than.. convenient before the very end. Like, the word Love was used. But it was always connected to Noorans behavior and thoughts. Signifying she was thinking that was what they were doing. The ending was SO random to me ||

[nocturne stratus]

oki done with sparknotes

i dont think i'll rate this book

ill leave with one last note ||war is always hardest on women and children man. 9/10 times all men get is a leg blown off. women and even children get mass raped. i notice this passage in the litcharts: "The story of Sundari is another horrific account, as Muslims rape the newlywed and then cut off her husband’s penis—this literal unmanning being the basest and most humiliating of punishments. " like bro i dont give a fuck about that guy having no dick, she was RAPED MULTIPLE TIMES!!! actually this might be a hot take, but yeah i care more about women and children in war time than the men. even women soldiers arent safe. its sad/funny when men r like "who fights the wars" buddy who starts them ||

[oak bloom]

|| that sentence makes me so mad I have nothing to say. (the litchart qoute, not you)||

[void delta]

mine says 5 weeks . like????

[plain roost]

It's bananas! Pop off king we love to see a an older book in demand

[plain roost]

Sorry I was out all day and didnt see this! And uhhh Im not sure I can finish it pretty quick once I get my grubby lil hands on it but 4 weeks feels a little bonkers to ask for as an extension

[heady shell]

I honestly don’t mind adding another 4 weeks on, don’t worry

[low harness]

I honestly don’t
mind adding another 4
weeks on, don’t worry

- abee 🐝

[plain roost]

Okay :D then that's where I'm at time-wise will definitely read it regardless even if I miss the BR window, I've waited this long I'm in too deep

[jade junco]

Ongoing BuddyRead

Train to Pakistan - Khushwant Singh

Description

This is one of those books that I always cry when reading. I would like to have a shared reading experience with other people when reading this classic

Start Date

<t:1744243200:D>

End Date

<t:1751241600:D>

Thread(s)

#1356169046105522218

Requested By

@obtuse furnace

Leader(s)

@obtuse furnace(0)

Interested (15)

@obtuse furnace,@floral cipher,@plain roost,@oak bloom,@odd shadow,@devout saddle,@nocturne stratus,@heady shell,@worthy osprey,@void delta,@unreal ice,@turbid harness,@raven bolt,@maiden river,@atomic rover

Event ID: 67ded486274f165cc8263537

[heady shell]

BR extended!
<t:1744311180:D> - <t:1751309580:D>

[plain roost]

Bless

[unreal ice]

I was (mildly) speedrunning this in time for the deadline, should I continue my run or should I pause it and wait closer to the end date?

Decisions decisions

[heady shell]

if you have momentum I'd say continue but if you were reading because you were pushing yourself to finish then I'd take a break

[silent wave]

oh this is extended

awesome

[unreal ice]

I will finish tonight

RAAAHHHH

[unreal ice]

Mano Majra

One could never be sure about educated people; they were all suspiciously cunning.
LMFAO

[unreal ice]

I finished

Highkey I don't even know what to say LMAO but I think Abi was going to send out discussion questions soon so I'll wait for those

[heady shell]

I will be sending discussion questions but lemme read this first I'll bump it up my tbr and start it this week

[atomic rover]

Warning: do not read books with heavy themes to get out of a reading slump, no matter how small they seem.
|| I'm about halfway through the book. It's a very interesting book, and even though some of the terms get lost on me seeing as I am not Desi, the themes explored are ones I can understand seeing as I come from a somewhat similar culture.
The characters in the book all come from different levels of societal heirachy. The badmash, the educated foreigner and the magistrate are treated very differently.
The badmash Jugga Singh: a very hated character, however you have to ask yourself the question, is he a bad person or just a result of his environment. While being in a bad situation does not excuse cruel behaviour, it does explain it. A criminal as a father and raised by a struggling single mother ( no hate to single mothers, they are the true heroes) one would be more surprised if he never saw a jail cell. He obviously has some sense of honour and responsibility, that only extends to areas that he believes are his. Kinda like a dog. Which he is btw. The most obvious example would be his shock and horror at being accused of murdering his own villagers. Not opposing the murder as an act, but rather the victim of said murder. In a culture that heavily enforces honour and dignity above all, this makes sense.
The educated foreigner Iqbal Singh: the only character I can actually stomach. This dude is probably the only person that sees women as people (slay king). Dreams of a free and safe India, a country that is controlled by Indians and not whatever foreign forces want a turn. His dreams I think a mirrored today in a lot of young people in a lot of places. His only flaw, is in his forgetting that those hopes are not shared across all the country. The villagers were right, what good would freedom be if they stayed the same. ||

||The magistrate Hukum Chand: I HATE THIS MAN. The difference between him and Jugga is that he knows better. He has a clearer understanding of right and wrong, some education, a place of leadership in a community. Yet he is still corrupt. The relationship he had with the young girl Haseena clearly illustrates this. Going to bed with her and only feeling bad afterwards. He only feels some sense of remorse because she reminded him of his daughter. Again with the our women and your women bullcrap. He almost seems to wallow in self pity over his own actions. A paragraph of text is dedicated to him justifying his own immorality.
This story amazingly weaves all these ideas, the clearl description of the settings truly makes you feel as if you were there. The author does not shy away from treating the system better than it is which is greatly appreciated and hammers the point home.
I onyl wish he would make it a bit more obvious that were are switching characters. ||

[silent wave]

starting again today

[turbid harness]

I’ll be starting this too

[turbid harness]

Ch.1
||I really like the very straightforward descriptive style. Really helps visualise the scenes and setting||

||Okay, this has turned uncomfortable ||

[turbid harness]

||Stirring with a forefinger I’d have refused even if I’d LOOVED milk ||

[silent wave]

im uhh halfway through the first chapter and i ||hate jugga. tf you mean by smacking her to stay silent????||

[void delta]

My hold still says 1 week 🥲so idk if I will be able to read this book

[heady shell]

Dacoity - 3%: ||That is a lot of people dying in such a short amount of time.||

5%: ||The way that they’re talking about women is a big they’re sexualising some and then kicking others whilst they rob them?? It’s so so gross. ||

12%: ||Um, not really a fan of the fact that Hindu men seem to be happy that Hindu women are choosing suicide over being raped and that they’re praising how pure they are. I don’t know, it just seems to be a really heavy expectation for the women but it was probably true for when and where this is set. ||

||I do feel like a bit more historical context at the start of this might have been beneficial for me personally but I’ll just have to do some of my own research to understand the tensions between Hindus and Muslims ||

17%: ||’Life was too short for people to have consciences.’ is such dangerous thinking.||

[heady shell]

29%: ||It might just be me but this feels a little bit dry. I might be used to having a character driving the story rather than a setting but I wish I was immersed in this and emotionally connecting with it a bit more.||

34%: ||Thank you to my kindle for helping me out with what badmash means. I’ve never heard that term before but I’m curious as to why someone would call themselves that. ||

37%: ||Is this police corruption and they’re lying about peoples’ political affiliations so they’re allowed to torture/assault them and also stop any investigations they might have been carrying out?||

Finished the first part. I’ll be taking a little break and then continuing

[heady shell]

Kalyug- 44%: ||Some of these stereotypes are so rude ||

48%: ||What a horrible horrible death for Hukum Chand’s aunt. To have to give birth to a baby that is no longer alive and then have sepsis as a result of that. She must have been in so much pain, both physically and emotionally.||

52%: ||I can’t even imagine experiencing all of those burning bodies.||

56%: ||I know that hijra as a term has a complex history and can either be an identity or a slur, but it definitely doesn’t mean what my copy has as the english translation. I think it’s more trans/non-binary though I suppose it could include intersex people. The h word is definitely outdated though and offensive. I’m not sure on trying to compare gender with religion. ||

Mano Majra - 72%: ||I hate that this pregnancy is entirely her responsibility and she’s at risk of forced marriage or murder if people discover it. It’s such a bad situation to be in. ||

74%: ||This officer is terrible threatening violence against women to teach men a lesson ???||

Karma - 78%: ||I hate that murders and massacres are so prevalent that people are that despondent that they don’t see a use in even reporting them. ||

88%: ||Wait, does that mean earlier that the guy who was forced to strip only had to get naked so they could check if he was circumcised or not? ||

96%: ||wtf? These people being dragged off the bus and murdered or mutilated. Also rape is not ‘making love’ and I hate that it’s described that way.||

I finished I’ll be walking home from the park and then I’ll write up my final thoughts

[plain roost]

Starting this!

My hold came through

[jade junco]

@obtuse furnace,@floral cipher,@plain roost,@oak bloom,@odd shadow,@silent wave,@nocturne stratus,@heady shell,@worthy osprey,@void delta,@unreal ice,@turbid harness,@raven bolt,@maiden river,@atomic rover

Hey everyone! This buddy read is now over. I definitely learnt things whilst reading this that I wasn't aware of before so I hope others had a similar experience.

Read and will be receiving points: Peridot, iggy, abi
If you have finished but aren't listed above then if you could answer some of the discussion questions or add additional thoughts to receive the points then that would be great ❤️

Post-reading questions:
🚂 Whilst reading, what did you think of the way postcolonialism was addressed in this book?
👫 How did gender inform the character journeys?
🖼️ The book employs a lot of visceral imagery to help tell the story. Are there any particular scenes or moments that have stayed with you since reading?
📖 Did you like this book or are you glad that you read it?

Thank you for joining me and Avi for this one! I hope your next read is a bit lighter (if that's what you want).

[heady shell]

For anyone who has started this before the deadline but not yet finished, you have until <t:1751616000:F> to do so. Unfortunately I'm busy this weekend so I'll have to submit the report just after the time listed here.

[heady shell]

also I will write up my final thoughts but not when it's 3.15am

[unreal ice]

It's been way too long since I've finished this book and don't have any responses to these discussion questions so I'm just going to try and go back to respond to other comments 🫶

[unreal ice]

I soo agree with this!

The ||differences in class/hierarchy are very clear in this book, especially in scenes with Iqbal Singh because he is like, the only(?) liberal-minded character, and everyone else is overly conservative, racist, sexist, and even classist at times? It was really interesting to see the differences in the way people act themselves and towards other people||
Are you finished this book btw?

To add on, with full book spoilers (thebaddestidiot pls dont open unless you're finished )

||I did enjoy how raw and reasonable/real all the characters seemed. Nobody felt over the top or exaggerated, because we could see/read their thoughts when they were alone, and when they were with others.

We saw how Jugga acted with his mother, telling her white lies so she doesn't have to worry too much about him, how he acted with (oh god I forgot her name) the girl he had ummm relations with, acting disgusting with her but sometimes having tender and wholesome thoughts about her while apart. We say Hukum Chand being a corrupt person of power and how he acted with his men ("Sleep outside nearby because of XYZ!") but was also secretly kind of a baby ("I want them to sleep nearby because I'm scared" LMFAOOOO) and how he also had tender thoughts and missed his daughter. We really see how all these bad people are still people, and conversely we see how these people can be terribly bad people.

imo I think Iqbal Singh was the most consistent character. Bro was just confused the whole book LMFAO I loved him even though he seemed pretty flat. ||

Ummmm but overall I didn't really like the book HAHA I found it to be really boring, and a lot of it was like.... idk.... normal...? I grew up surrounded by desi culture so a lot of it + political info is not new to me, and idk, this book wasn't too attention-grabby for me. I think someone said that this book made them cry and that's what drew me in, but I wasn't too invested in the story overall so I guess I didn't care too much about any emotional scenes. I give this book somewhere around 2 stars or something LOL

[heady shell]

Yeah I think it made Avi cry but I was the same as you and wasn’t emotionally invested in it either

I will give you points though spicy so thank you for adding more thoughts

[silent wave]

im still reading

ill try to read some more

[turbid harness]

I'll share my full and final thoughts today! Finished it a while ago but I do have my thoughts written down

[heady shell]

Sorry Hanzy, I only saw some messages for the first part/chapter so wasn’t sure if you had finished

[turbid harness]

Oh, pls don't apologise! It's my fault entirely, I've been really bad at sharing thoughts lately

[heady shell]

Don’t rush them today if you don’t want to. As long as they’re posted by the time in the pins then it should be fine

[turbid harness]

Work's been a lot lighter in comparison to the past two weeks today and my expressive blockage seems to be getting better finally, so I'll be here sharing thoughts once I'm through another BR. Thank you really, means a lot 💜

[turbid harness]

Full and final thoughts on this!
||I honestly don’t know where to begin. I don’t even know how to talk about this book because it wasn’t just something I read but rather it’s something that just stuck? Like in a way something uncomfortable just lingers under your skin without asking for permission The content was deeply uncomfortable for me personally and I found it difficult and not ignorable unlike certain satirical books like Catch-22 that may have certain similarities.

I didn’t go in with any expectations as usual. I just knew it was about Partition, and that was enough to brace myself. But even then, I wasn’t prepared for this. Not the tone and not the way it presents devastation like it’s just another Tuesday. Like the worst of humanity is just... routine?

I think part of why it didn't hit too much is that it’s a very male story? Not necessarily in a bad way, but the women in this just don’t really get the space or depth to exist as people. They’re more… symbols? Victims? Kinda like the backdrop to the men's arcs. And maybe that left a bit of a gap for me. Like the horrors of Partition were gendered too and while we see bits of that through Jugga’s love interest and the things that happen to the Muslim women later on it’s not explored with the kind of complexity I was hoping for. Like pls call rape, rape.
That said, the writing itself is strong. There’s a starkness to it like this eerie stillness right before something terrible happens and I sorta liked that. ||

||The village of Mano Majra itself is almost a character in the story, with its own rhythms and reactions and helplessness. I think that part was well done like feels like a place at the edge of something going downhill. There’s a kind of restraint in the writing that honestly made it more brutal than if it were gory or dramatic. It’s never trying to emotionally manipulate you but rather it just shows you and you can’t just look away from it. Like people really did live through this horrific reality once and also died through this. People did watch their neighbours burn and bleed and vanish. And this wasn’t even 100 years ago, it wasn't not the middle ages

Jugga as a character was interesting but also kind of confusing? I couldn’t decide if I was meant to root for him or just watch him and then his whole redemption arc, while dramatic and significant, felt a bit too last-minute? Like I see the message that even a “bad man” can do a good thing bla bla but I wish we’d seen more of that change building inside him before the big final act. Still, the symbolism of what he does ig that stays with you. An unremarkable/grey character being the one taking action. The social commentary is heavy, and rightfully so, but also very blunt. Which I guess is needed for a story like this. The role of politics, the manipulation of religion, how quickly people can turn on each other like it’s all there. But sometimes it felt like the characters were just vehicles for those messages rather than full people. Like maybe I just wanted more depth? More emotion? And not just observation. Or maybe that is the point. Like aren't we just helpless bystanders atp in time but it's definitely what’s keeping me from rating it higher. It’s important, yes and powerful too. But emotionally, I didn’t connect the way I expected to. It felt more like witnessing history rather than feeling it. And I don’t know if that’s the writing or just where I’m at emotionally right now, but yeah ||

||Iqbal on the other hand like he's this educated guy sent to report and all but remains plain confused and passive kinda. He kinda reminds me of myself or rather my past self when faced with conflicts/confrontations. I'd be all words and no action kinda too but yeah, he just stayed flat throughout. Hukum Chand though unsettled me like we meet him and within those initial few meets we find he's with a minor? The book doesn’t try to excuse his actions and I’m glad but you also feel the weight of someone who has power, knows he has power, but still chooses to wallow in indecision. There’s guilt there, but no real courage and it's just a representation of morally grey characters. All 3 have different background and different inclinations/ motivations but at the end of the day, they're just humans, flawed and all
I think I've rated this a 3.5||

[plain roost]

25% - ||First chunk was a little meh but I understand there had to be a lot of context laid out so readers know where we are and the significance of that.||

||The treatment of women is a big ick, which is of course unfortunate to read. I like the multiple POVs of the night the moneylender was killed; I feel it really brings to light how a small town can experience one event so intimately.||

||I find it fascinating how much the intro of this book leaned in to how all these different sects despise each other and the book is set in the one town where they sort of just coexist well enough. Very interested in seeing how that plays out.||

[plain roost]

50% -||The police willing to twist the truth and fabricate stories in order to save face should surprise me but does not. Also the inequality of treatment between Iqbal and Jugga at the prison is something else. The burning of the bodies from the Pakistan train was a dark section. I cannot imagine experiencing that first hand as Hukum Chand does, nor even knowing it is happening and smelling it in the wind as the town does. Truly a horror. I would also be scared of being alone after that.||

[plain roost]

75% - ||I am afraid Haseena will die, which I hope isn't the case as she deserves better. And Jugga I am quite liking, he has a good attitude (albeit a wretched temper). The subinspector, however, is a piece of work. His conniving with Constable Sahib is irritating to see and know is happening. All the lies and falsities and half-truths.||

||The miscommunication (deliberate and otherwise) amongst the people of Mano Majra tries to divide them, it's pleasing to see that even despite the overall nervous environment in their town, they still hold loyalty towards each other foremost. I cannot imagine leaving everything you know behind on only the promise of safety. Malli somehow becoming in charge of the Muslim property is just 🙃||

||And poor Nooran! With child but fearing for her life. I hope Jugga really will take care of her.||

[plain roost]

100% - ||How the people feel after the Muslims leave and they can only watch things get worse is just :( "They only wished that [the river] would rise more and drown the whole of Mano Majra along with them, their women, children, and cattle—provided it also drowned Malli, his gang, the refugees, and the soldiers."||

||The slow horror of the flooded river and the water-logged corpses was a sickening series of events. Then the train, the pit. What must it be like to live in such a small town and have death begin to surround you on all sides? That they would be so immediately swayed to kill as well is alarming.||

||Meet Singh is quick-witted and honourable, and I really respect that about him. He isn't so quick to abandon his values. Hukum Chand is a bit of a coward, although there is something to be said that he is aware he sucks and feels guilt over it.||

||Iqbal and Jugga. When we first met Iqbal, he was an educated man arriving in Mano Majra with the intention of changing minds and bringing peace. When we leave him, he has given up on the seemingly unconquerable beast of death and carnage. Jugga, as if a perfect opposite, is introduced as a troublemaker and a brute, simpleminded and not worth the time. Yet, it was he who saved lives. He was the only one willing to take a stand and it cost him his life. UGH.||