#[FINISHED] September 2024 | I Who Have Never Known Men - Jacqueline Harpman, Ros Schwartz

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jade siren
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For the month of September, this forum post will be for the discussion of I Who Have Never Known Men by Jacqueline Harpman, translated by Ros Schwartz
No spoilers needed!

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jade siren
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Finished readers list:

  • spidersinthecity
  • physalialex
  • saraby17
  • pauliney_
  • maca7_
  • castral01
  • voeisme
  • nightshade0128
  • jaclynport
  • wicdiv
  • kitncaboodle
  • hazethe
  • laia_gnp
  • midnightbookworm8
  • vaude
  • chocorb
  • hanzyyyy
  • iam.shaq
  • amanda08
  • minmimosa
  • gostudyayesha

Finished but hasn't discussed the book in a meaningful way: (no points)

  • xx_sue
  • ilu_ilu
jade siren
jade siren
sacred zinc
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Final Thoughts rainpin

I didn't vibe with this read and I know that this is partially due to my inability to enjoy more abstract, monologue type novels. This reads as a take on what it means to be human (more specifically a woman) and I understand the themes were only a vehicle to develop this essay, this idea, but I wish it had been taken further.
I really did enjoy the narration (and the audiobook narrator did a wonderful job at conveying the MCs voice and feelings and train of thought, this stream of consciousness) but at times I just felt utterly bored. The prose was lovely but I had so many unanswered questions at the end of the novel - it just wasn't gratifying enough of a read for me to feel accomplished.

No real character development besides a few details on the relationships between women, a lot of uncertainty and despair (I get it, it's the theme, but I was disappointed), and a whole lot of yearning for the men. I understand the relationship between sexuality and humanity and baby-making, but I think it missed a lot of key-elements between the incredible connection between women.

I'd also read great reviews on this, and how the final 10% of the book was "groundbreaking", "chilling"; I was excited when she found the furnished bunker and the books, but the irony of her disease and her predicament fell short to me sadblob

Overall, 2 Star for me shibaheart

stiff zinc
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I enjoyed this book. It’s very different from what I usually read, so it felt very refreshing.

I liked the writing style, the lack of chapters made that much more immersive and hard to let go.

By the way the MC is seen as different, given the lack of “real life experiences”, I guess it would be easy to assume that she would have a different ending but, when I think of it, it makes sense. In my opinion it can feel a bit “dragged” but it’s because we are literally in her head and, despite the circumstances, I don’t believe she wanted to die (unlike the other women who had experienced the joys of their previous life, and ended up wishing for death to end their cycle of loss).

It’s a book that gives you so many strings of thought without any concrete answers, so I understand that it won’t be everyone’s cup of tea. It’s not the kind of book that I will pick up back to back, but I will definitely explore Jacqueline’s work.

dusky imp
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sooo. final thoughts.
This was also really different from most books I ever read. Some part of me expected an explanation on what had happened, why the cabins, where was the bus going, what were the guards doing.. maybe because that is usually how dystopias or mysteries work.
I really liked the style, though the lack of chapters made it a bit difficult for me to read sometimes. When I put it down and picked it back up after a while, I sometimes read the last few pages again. With chapters, I dont have this problem.
The narrator was interesting, and to read about her ideas about men, which seemed like a mixture between curiosity, shallow sexual ideas, and reproduction. Made me think about how things you never experience seem so much more exotic.
The idea of being alone for 20 years sounds so scary. I dont think I have ever been alone for more than a day in my whole life (or I have at least seen people on the street from my window, or heard the neighbors, since I lived my whole life in cities and apartments). Being that alone is a scary thought.
I think I mostly liked the book. 3.75 🌟 - maybe I would have enjoyed it more if there was more about the relationships the narrator had towards the other women. But maybe it didnt seem that important to her in the end.

rain current
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finished itt. I started reading today as a way of me trying to not be on social media which is usually how i spend my time as i eat, and i wasnt able to stop reading till just now. My eyes hurt as i read it on my phone

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Definitely wish some type of organizations on the text because otherwise i couldnt quite stop at any point. There wasnt a stopping point

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I really enjoyed the writing style, very melancholic like some lullaby, i couldnt stop reading and im fascinated by this style of writing where not much happens but its still an immersive experience

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It gave me quite a dystopian feel, I kept thinking of the catch the reason, why are they there, where has everyone else gone, there must be an answer she just hasnt seen it. I though maybe its like the Truman show, they are living some simulation of a life or smt, then i thought maybe its like a game and theres a catch and an easy way out of the cage but they have been too overpowered and destroyed so they dont consider a hidden door or smt.. Then i remembered a movie i watched about different time dimensions, like a parallel universe, where different versions of the main group kind of finds different thems and it gets complicated. I thought maybe the rest of the women in the cages are them too just a version of them that didnt survive.. but then there were men and after a while I just kind of lost any motivation

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It seemed like a maze that had no way out and reading her perception and her resilience, it was almost brave and shocking to experience her emotions and how she kept going and nothing was going to stop her

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I really enjoyed the book and it also gave me a headache.. wouldnt recommend it to everyone but i loved it and glad i got to read it

prisma flame
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ok so my take on this summed up is: i fuckin loved it (but also this was my suggestion to botm blobGiggle)

i think that the main takeaway for me is the vast irony between the title and the mc's lived experience. she never knew men but literally everything she was going through was likely caused by men.

i loved that her drive to live despite everything was all from within herself, not given by only those 39 women she had grown up with all her life. she made it the farthest, she learned the most, (though ultimately learned nothing and by the end knew more than anyone she had ever known previously), and then died without losing real hope. she created her own life and destiny from a pile of ashes and truly lived as much as anyone could given the circumstances.

as for what actually happened, of course i could speculate all day but i think my initial statement is all that matters: she knew men more intimately than she was capable of realizing.

5 stars

sacred zinc
prisma flame
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@tidal matrix what'd you like about it? i'd be interested in hearing your thoughts

dusky imp
prisma flame
dusky imp
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Hmm, now I wonder if I would have stayed. And I think I would have, probably. Reading the narrators perspective was more interesting, I hoped for her to leave, but I personally think I would have chosen the safety of the village.

tender crystal
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Kinda disappointing, ngl
I got the vibe early on that we probably would not get any answers early on in the book, but I wished something would have happened. I liked the writing in parts and the book kept me hooked where she discovers new things. But I wanted more from the book tbh. I didn't dislike it as such but probably not something I'd read again

dense heartBOT
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@tidal matrix

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haughty dome
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Finished. It was an interesting book. Once I let go of the idea of getting answers or a resolution of unknowns, I enjoyed it more. The prose was at times quite beautiful. I write a bit myself, and it was inspiring to see a form of story like this.

hasty basalt
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I just finished so I'm still processing my thoughts but overall I loved it. I think it's interesting the way it's written without chapters and breaks and yet somehow it felt interesting enough that I kept going without feeling bored. Castral talked about the parallels of how the story of the women making their own measurement of time with us making our measurements of where we are in the book and I thought that was genius. I also thought later, when they were out of the bunker and wandering about trying to look for signs of life and civilization and when the MC went off on her own in meandering circles and paths was also parallel to how the story was told in meandering ways. I love it!

I also feel like it's so interesting that we truly don't have any idea why they were imprisoned or what happened or even if they are still on earth. I initially thought it might be something to do with gender and patriarchy, esp with the MC talking about her sex and sexual reproductivity, the experience of puberty, or lack of, but the fact that there were bunkers of imprisoned men too creates doubt that it was a gender thing. Although who knows.

I both love and hate the uncertainty and the fact that we never get answers. It leaves a lot of room for wonder and imagination and a sort of feeling like, why are we here anyway? Because we don't get answers for this either until we die, and I guess we won't get answers for this book too.

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I think I'm going to be thinking about this book a lot. I loved it!

prisma flame
# hasty basalt I just finished so I'm still processing my thoughts but overall I loved it. I th...

im inclined to believe it very much was a gendered thing: all the guards were male, and the bus which was found in the last third was full of only men (they each had the same pack filled with a razor for shaving) seeming to imply that they are maybe trainee or replacement guards on their way to one of the bunkers. the books she finds in the final bunker also seem to reinforce this. everything is oriented as though it was a vast military facility/network manned by men. i could be reading into it too much but that's just my personal opinion.

as for the why and the who of it, well... that is up to pure speculation. i highly doubt that they were on a different planet (even with the little misdirection of the aeronautics book). the vibe i was getting was like a highly advanced version of north korea in perhaps a post-apocalyptic global-warming-destroyed territory (no animals, no plant diversity, poor soil, no real seasons.)

the funny thing is that if the MC knew more about humanity, she could have followed one of the rivers long enough that she would have either ended up at a city or an ocean/other body of water which could eventually lead to a port city.

hasty basalt
# prisma flame im inclined to believe it very much was a gendered thing: all the guards were ma...

I'm inclined to believe that it was a gender thing too, the only reason I have any doubts about that is because some of the bunkers have men that were the ones imprisoned, which is my point of what I loved about the book, we can speculate but we don't get any real answers. We can theorize but everything is in doubt. I totally agree with you, it's all pure speculation and that's what I love about it!

dusky imp
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Oh, I wanted her to follow a river so badly!

tidal matrix
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So I finished this a couple days ago but, I've finally figured out my thoughts on it. This book put me in a trance. I picked it up and then next second it was over. It was melodic in such a sad way but, so so good. This is probably one of my favorite reads of this year.

jade siren
late mica
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Okay so this was a reread for me but I did the audio the first time and the ebook this time danceAc still a 4 star read for me.

Atmospheric, bleak but still somewhat hopeful, dystopian, desolate, frustrating. I just loved it. I wish we had some more answers on how the world came to be that way and what caused so many of the people to die/flee, but because the MC and the other women didn't have these answers either or couldn't remember then it made sense to the story as to why we never found out.

I always like a happy ending so part of me wishes we did get a bit of a better one but I think ultimately the MC had made peace with the fact that she was dying, and at least she got to have experiences outside of the bunker and try new things before she did. It's a little ironic though that never 'knowing men' or going through puberty was ultimately going to be the reason that she died.

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idk I just loved it and would probably read it a third time in the future ShrugFreg

sleek sierra
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Ok just finished and idk where to start, but I did love the shit out of this book

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Read in the SG blurb that the book was informed by the author’s history as a wwii refugee, and I can really see that. When you don’t have the same early formative childhood experiences as other people, it must be really hard to form relationships and relate to them. However it also seems to me that MC was freed by this lack of previous experiences in that she also wasn’t dependent on her circumstances to find fulfillment. Everyone else was waiting for things to get back to “normal” and since MC didn’t have a normal, she was able to adapt to the new circumstances above ground

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I really liked the way the text just all ran together, though it doesn’t make for the most enjoyable reading experience. Esp when I realized she was writing her own experience, she would be much less familiar with narrative tools like breaks and chapters. If the book had had those things, imo it would have felt much more artificial and forced. This way it really felt like she was talking directly to me, and when she started talking at the end about someone finding her book, I teared up. It made me think of the author as that refugee, feeling so lost and alone. How many people are out there suffering right now, that will never have their words found and read, whose experiences are never going to be seen. Don’t know if I’m just feeling maudlin right now, but this book was so unique and amazing, I’m actually angry I’ve never heard of it before

hasty basalt
jade siren
coral elk
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Just finished the book yesterday and wanted to share my thoughts. I really enjoyed this book and tbh I enjoyed it more than I expected, since a friend of mine didn't particularly like it. I'm someone who's always in favor of distopian books, but this one was executed in a very particular way. I have a bittersweet feeling regarding the fact that we never get to know what happened to the world to end up in this catastrophic situation, nor who were the guards and who led this whole mess. At the same time, I thought it was a beautiful way to convey acceptance in absolute uncertainty, something that we struggle a lot as humans (at least I do!). It's also a good reflection about what makes us human, and whether the main character is one despite not being able to understand what humanity is because she never experienced it. To sum it up, a thoughtful and deep read that I would really recommend. 4 stars for me!

sage stag
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I finished the audiobook yesterday. I really liked it. I haven’t read anything like it before and it was interesting. I think it showed a lot of how your humanity and others can be destroyed and then somehow, eventually you’ll be able to put it back together again to what is was but still isn’t the same. I think it also showed the struggles of not fitting in with others. How the narrator was so much younger than everyone else it just made her stand out. But overall good read deep meaning and thoughts about it overall. ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ five stars.

ivory kraken
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As I said in the last thread I fear that I'm an outlier - I was constantly bored reading this. omg I'm excited to see that so many loved this book (reading thoughts here was a lot of fun) but I really just didn't get it in terms of what people were getting out of this.
I kind of understood what I was getting into beforehand but gosh this was the longest 180 pages I've ever read. And I don't think I have a problem with books that are just...walking. I mean Blood Meridian is basically just that in a desert for about 60% of the read but I think the difference is that philosophy and THINGS are happening in that book. I also don't have problems with stories that are roundabout, metaphorical or even without answers but for some reason this was just so tedious.

For me the main theme was about what it's like to be human in a world where you have been stripped of everything that makes us feel human (or rather that we've learned should make us feel human). About the strive for knowledge that we possess. The narrator was never content, always wanted to know more, even if she had to walk for years for one tiny bit of new information. Maybe this made her more 'human' than the others, who were fine with just settling down and basically waiting to die. I also am intrigued about the author's history being part of this book (like Tink mentions), these are definite interesting pros to this novel that I can't ignore. It's kind of fun to pluck away at the philosophy and subtext but the vessel just wasn't working for me. I can't fault some parts of the prose - they're legitimately beautiful, heartfelt and solemn. Clever too. Early on I actually enjoyed hearing how they worked out a means to track time. It absolutely ticks the box in terms of weighty dystopia, again, no notes, the concept of being alone in this horrible place is harrowing in its own right. Can't fault that. I'd argue that without irony - she had me in the first half.

I'm gonna err on the side of nuclear fallout or something of that nature with all the illnesses and bunkers and what have you. Why the landscape looks the way it does. Lack of wild life (though they heard birds at one point...?). Though underground facilities. Like. Under the bunkers. Also a thing. Would maybe explain where some of the guards went. As for the siren, I got nothing. Issue underground that needed to be tended to and led to the entryways being sealed up to abandon the prisoner projects?

But we'll never get any answers which isn't really that much of an issue for me. It's just that in the span of 188 pages, absolutely sweet FA happens. I get that it's meant to be bleak, melancholic, introspective and unnerving - it does that, I follow that - but I would have loved just...anything. It says something that the peak of this book was probably her finding the fucken bus but even that was basically nothing. I think I just got tired of the repetition - did you know that the women taught her how to read? Did you know that she was the youngest one there? Did you know that she knew that she was going to be the last one to survive? Did you know that when she was young she was outraged at being left out? Did you know that she was tired of waiting in one place and was different? Did you know she found another bunker and it was nothing again and she no longer expected an open door?
Do you see what I mean? I was sick to death of it. I understand the importance of her otherness from the other women. I know that there's a heavy significance on how she had nothing to compare her current existence with the existence the other women had before. I know that only deepened with her infertility and physical differences with the others. I get it. I got it. Please.

I dunno 2 ⭐??? I guess??? I'm glad that other people were having a good time with this but sitting down to read this was a ongoing chore, I did not achieve any personal introspection about humanity or femininity, high key happy to be done.

sacred zinc
ivory kraken
upbeat charm
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I searched the whole time for an underlying metaphor or meaning in the story...and I think that the lack of meaning and struggling to make sense of "the world" was, in the end, kind of the point. The protagonist's early scorn of the woman using old frameworks to make meaning (cooking, gossiping) reminded me of being young and rebellious, but by the end, she didn't have any better way to relate to people. Then, there were no more people.

Taken as a more absurdist or philosophical book, I enjoyed the perspective of an outsider in an incomprehensible world. I'd put it up there with Camus' "The Stranger" or "I am Legend" for impact, but still prefer Ursula LeGuin for going a little more into human relationships to "the other". 4/5 for me!

jade siren
upbeat charm
jade siren
void dune
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final thoughts
i loved this. i generally adore books that are more character-driven so this was a really nice surprise for me, as someone who was finding it very hard to get into initially. the writing was easy to follow from the start and the concept was intriguing. im not very great at analyzing stuff unfortunately but this one got me thinking.
the narrator is an outcast from the very start, and even though she eventually gets included in a group, she still feels left out because she can’t relate to anything the other women felt. it fascinated me how she never drew up learning how to read or how to do multiplication tables, the only thing she had in that cage was her mind pepeOldge
the way the women got freed from prison only to be deserted in another, bigger one was of great interest to me because seeing them slowly lose hope was so devastating to read about and i loved every aspect of it catCryingOk they were so lucky to have gotten out because the fate of the other women and men seemed so gruesome to me. imagine being locked up in a cage and slowly dying. idk if it’s worse to die quickly or to spend years wandering but to no avail. i think things got really interesting once the women started to realize there was no point in escape, and that they were no guards and they were all alone. it all went downhill from the first death.
ngl, yeah, i was bored during some parts of this book because it seemed to drag on but i think the slow pace helps to build up the despair.
i cannot even imagine how the mc survived alone for so long animeZenSadBoi living out the rest of your days not knowing why you were there, or the names and functions of the fittings in the house, i think i would’ve gone crazy after a while. the mc is different from the other women but didn’t she grow tired cattoCry
4.25 stars for me

onyx hearth
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I finished this two days ago but needed some time to get over it (still not but I’m coping omg )
This was such an achingly poignant read that I quite liked reading despite its despairing content. I know for a fact I would not have lasted a day like the MC. It was strange and unsettling and the vibes felt quite similar to The Memory Police in someways but while that book offers no resolution until the end, here there’s something and and like the MC meets her end eventually. I read the 2nd and 3rd parts of the book in one go as the writing had me totally immersed. Some parts of it felt like Lord of the Flies but make it women and we see lovely camaraderie and companionship. I loved how despite the bleakness of the situation, the trauma, and confusion, the women held fast onto each other and showed so much humanity. Even euthanasia is presented in an almost beautiful way and I’d never considered how an act of killing could be contrasted in such a way with the MC finding it awful hard to comprehend murder towards the end. Prisoners despite being freed, it’s just all so bleak honestly and I’m still in that haze the book’s created despite having read a different book after to cope. I give this a 4.5!

hardy kestrel
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I'm done with the book, not sure if I fully understood everything ngl

dry tiger
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okay i really didnt like this bookomg
i was sooooo bored and nothing ever happenddevastated i think i like my stories to actually have a conclusion to their questions but like i understand thats probably a me problem and it was not like the book wasnt open about the reader not getting any anwersomg
i just really didnt see any point to this book and who knows maybe my brain is just to fried to think about a deeper meaningShrugFreg
2 stars

hardy kestrel
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Yeah the no conclusion thing definitely didn't help me either.
There are some philosophical questions posed but overall I feel like this book missed it's mark, like the author was trying to get at something but could have done better at it or something

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There is a really cool thing in answering this however

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If you reread the first sentence/paragraph of the book

hardy kestrel
# prisma flame ok so my take on this summed up is: i fuckin loved it (but also this was my sugg...

i think that the main takeaway for me is the vast irony between the title and the mc's lived experience. she never knew men but literally everything she was going through was likely caused by men.

I disagree with this take. There's a lot of like gender based discussion which I don't think has strong basis imo. Given the fact that there are similar bunkers with men instead of women in them, it seems that humanity as a whole was under confinement.
They are clearly not in Earth by all the signs, and therefore it's more likely that the cause of whatever the issue is is more alien than gender based.
The guards (supposedly male) have non human tendencies like extremely fast reflexes and observation skills, and no decision skill making of their own.
So I don't think it's a men caused this problem situation.

The author actually uses he pronouns to describe the user of the luxury room but there's no indicator that the person who used to use the room was human to begin with.

hardy kestrel
ivory kraken
hardy kestrel
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But I'm probably still giving it a 3 just on the philosophical stances

ivory kraken
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Likely the best part of this for me was seeing how much other people enjoyed it.

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Some 5 ⭐ up in here always makes me happy

wheat lagoon
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final thoughts
my book credit arrived way too late but I finally managed to finish it. audible had arbitrarily divided into chapters ( i say that because the chapters didn't start with a fresh idea, it continued properly from the last sentence of the last chapter. it was a perfectly flowing story with time jumps and the author telling us what happened. Which btw i still don't understand WHAT HAPPENED. we never learned anything about why they were confined, where they were, why always 40 people, why were they being kept alive?? i felt the narrators frustrations. her curiosity kept her alive. it was sad to see her village die off within 22 years. she walked in search for answers until she died. She said something about her story and her being alive when the readers read it but the fact that it still doesn't answer the questions is maddening. It was extremely bleak and reminded me of the Road by Cormac McCarthy - but that had some answers and someone to carry the tale forward. By the end it was a tad bit repetitive but I just sped up the recording. It was certainly interesting and I hate that there's no answer to any of it. Maybe that was the point idk. This was about her journey to find answers and even though she didn't find any she died knowing way more than she did. in the first chapter she was pissed about not having the knowledge and memories that the women had but at the end she knew more than they did, travelled more than they did.

hardy kestrel
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I was under the impression that the bunkers had 39 people, and their bunker was the only rare 40, because the child was young, and therefore the implication that she wasnt supposed to be there kind of thing or something like that

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but I might be wrong, cause I think they did mention in some bunkers there were 40

prisma flame
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it was always 40 in each bunker

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including the mc's

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i think there was 1 exception where she assumed someone had died while incarcerated (before the alarm and the guards vanished)

wheat lagoon
late mica
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I don't mind that the questions weren't answered in this case because how was she ever going to find out when everyone either left or died? Usually it would really annoy me but I'm not sure how they could've satisfactorily included that info in the book

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It felt like we were in the MC's shoes a bit more too because we were left with so many questions

wheat lagoon
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ngl when she found the book in the bus or that stocked bunker I thought she would finally get to read about why were people kept in cages or something about this world. the bunker was meant to be accessible by someone who knew about this world bc it was hidden and stocked up with important stuff other than food, which meant there must be higher authority people as well.

onyx hearth
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To me the initial part of the book made it clear that I’m not going to be getting answers so I’d kinda made peace with that fact quite early and it didn’t really bother me at all. This book was pure vibes and like transported me into this helpless ‘what if’ kinda situation where I get to see a little bit of humanity in the bleakest of situations

wheat lagoon
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Yeah, the “not knowing” is the charm of this book. when they were making their village, i thought it was an exploration of what it's like to have companionship, purpose in life, love, community, village, a routine. then they started to pass away one by one and they lost a sense of purpose each tike someone passed away. she carried on for another 22 years with a purpose to find more answers - which was so bleak and lonely- and I feel like a part of me was frustrated by the non answers is bc i felt she couldn't fulfill her purpose omg but maybe enlightenment doesn't just come despite the desperations, death doesn't have answers maybe death is the answer, she didn't die with regrets. she didn't resign herself to death and carried on until she wasn't able to continue

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I'm gonna stop thinking about this book now i's making me sad catTearsCry

indigo marsh
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hello pepemegaSUCC

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i loved this book so much omg 5 stars for me

jade siren
indigo marsh
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the all women theme pepemegaSUCC the story was very very very interesting which made me definitely interested and i knew i would love it from the very start. and i found it very tiny bit similar to room, which i ADORE. even tho there were things already established it was nice to see them do everything on their own, making things from scratch. the freedom they all experienced and how they built literally a civilisation for themselves. im not very good at gathering my own thoughts lmao its why i always avoid my final thoughts kekcry but i genuinely loved this book a lot mostly because it was all females and the narrator never knew men. it was very wholesome to see all of them stick together because even tho they wanted to find more things and keep going ahead they thought about each other and the elderly people peepoPray i loved how the narrator got to experience luxury at the end. the thing i didnt like was the lack of chapters but i wouldnt take one star away because of that blobGiggle

glacial plover
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This book gives off Sultana's Dreams vibes(I haven't read any of the two lol)