The Odyssey - Homer

[vagrant helm]

BR duration: <t:1690246800:D> - <t:1692925200:D>
BR leader: @burnt ingot
Link: #buddy-reads message

[small zinc]

https://tenor.com/view/we-play-with-the-toys-gods-give-us-troy-sean-bean-odysseus-gif-14107184

[burnt ingot]

hii

[warm canyon]

Yessssss

[meager epoch]

Hellll ya

[burnt ingot]

Yeayyyy 🫶🏻

[small zinc]

Which translations are y’all reading?

[chilly carbon]

👋

[warm canyon]

Emily Wilson

[burnt ingot]

E. V. Rieu

i got my book from a yard sale and its only 0.5d

[small zinc]

Me too! First time pulling it out.

https://tenor.com/view/firefly-serenity-malcolm-reynolds-captain-tightpants-nathan-fillion-gif-4816189

[warm canyon]

I’ve had it for months lol

[small zinc]

Same! I wanted her The Iliad sooooo badly when reading it for the buddy read but it doesn’t release until October lol

Now I have this lopsided feeling of having only read one of her translations but just read The Iliad.

[late wasp]

Pretty cover

I'm just here to see what you all think I'm not going to reread this anytime soon

[small zinc]

True. 4 days is a long way away.

[waxen timber]

i’ll be reading this pretty Penguin clothbound classic

[small zinc]

I love those! Do you buy those editions often?

[waxen timber]

no, i only got the Illiad and the Odyssey

[small zinc]

Pairs. That’s beautiful. Now you need The Aeneid by Virgil!

[meager epoch]

Is that the one where it’s in prose? I flipped through the penguin clothbound edition for the Iliad and it’s in prose

I’m reading Fagles translation

[waxen timber]

i think so

[small zinc]

Oh the clothbound books are the Samuel Butler translation? That’s interesting.

[waxen timber]

i think the Illiad I have is EV Rieu but i’m not sure about the Odyssey and i’m not home to check rn

[small zinc]

It’s also Rieu

[warm canyon]

Aren’t they all prose?

Am I confusing prose and verse?

[small zinc]

Prose is like a novel. Verse is poetry.

It’s originally in verse but some have translated it into prose instead. Samuel Butler was one of the first, if not the first, and it’s a pretty common translation. A lot of folks use it because of public domain and it’s easier to understand because of familiarity if not used to reading in verse/poetry. I’ve personally never read it in prose to completion but it does feel different. I think my next go around will be a prose translation though to experience it.

[meager epoch]

Oh ya by prose I meant like full sentences and paragraphs and no line breaks like in poetry/epic poems

[warm canyon]

Yeah you’re right, I was thinking of prose. I wonder why that would really make a difference tho

[chilly carbon]

The edition I have is the Fagles translation. Read by Ian McKellen.

[meager epoch]

Ian McKellen!!! What a stellar choice of narrator

[warm canyon]

Oooo

[chilly carbon]

Im gonna start it tonight I think.

[small zinc]

I think I’m still gonna start on the day. Probably follow the same plan as The Iliad—a book a day, 24 books total.

[chilly carbon]

Whatcha mean a book a day?

[burnt ingot]

This is my version !

[small zinc]

Nice nice! Lots of translations in here. That’s great! I get curious how different lines sound because they can come across differently.

[small zinc]

https://tenor.com/view/two-days-2days-the-rich-life-its-r-life-gif-13955404

[burnt ingot]

are we gonna start tmrw👀

[small zinc]

Oh I didn't count today. But I guess it does actually start in 27h. So perhaps I shall start tomorrow! I've more or less caught up with my other readings, so it'll be perfect timing.

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Just read the translator’s note for Emily Wilson and I’m ready to start for tomorrow! So hype.

[obtuse token]

I have Fagles

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That’s what I’ve read in the past. Fagles is good stuff. I’m thinking about reading Virgil’s The Aeneid and maybe Fagles is the way to go for that. But idk. I’ve been wanting to read other epic poems lately like The Divine Comedy by Dante and reread Paradise Lost by Milton.

[meager epoch]

Ohh Aeneid is also on my TBR! I read maybe the first 6 books when I was in high school but then stopped lol I want to get back to it

[burnt ingot]

its 24th to me so ig ill start reading : D
Book I: ||So it's Muse telling the story to us, and many gods/goddesses favor Odyssey, although Poseidon exiled him; Nymph Calypso wants him to marry her (is this gonna be another horny god/goddess punish human for not obeying their wish) and kept him from going home.
Telemachus appears to be a bit too chill to his mother. Does he grudge her keeping the Suitors around?||

[small zinc]

I sort of have a ranking of the three epics of the time:
. The Odyssey
. The Aeneid
. The Iliad
I liked our reading of The Iliad but I still don't think my translation was the best. I prefer Fagles to Caroline Alexander. I wish I had had Emily Wilson's translation when we did it. But I do for this read, so I'm looking forward to getting into this sea voyage. I never really think about this book in terms of seasonality, however, a boat on the ocean sounds pretty summerish to me xD

[small zinc]

Hype! I'm starting later tonight myself.

[small zinc]

And I started! Book 1 done.

As for your spoilers: (Book 1) ||I do think he begrudges the suitors. I find that well imbedded in the text but also, who likes the new dad(s) that eats all the food and lays waste to the home? Not me. It would be different if there was someone worthy of a queen who came but these all seem like leeches. Telemachus does seem above his station with regard to how he speaks with his mother, however, I find him very frustrated that she won't turn any man down. From my perspective, she's being weak in not refusing them outright. What need does she have to entertain suitors? She's a queen and not without wealth. She doesn't even know for sure that Odysseus is dead! It's been years, yes. But what happens when a king returns to his kingdom and his queen married someone else? Does she lose title? Does he? What about the son? Would there be a battle for the crown? That last seems most likely.||

Some lines that I liked:

(1.123-124) ||"Good evening, stranger, and welcome. Be our guest, come share / our dinner, and then tell us what you need."||

I like this because ||the lines parallel the wrong action in the Book 1 (welcoming the suitors). Telemachus also welcomes but he does it our of graciousness for a guest and not for personal gain. Nor is there a wastefulness attached like the situation with the suitors who are killing his father's cattle, drinking his wine, and filling his home with their man musk xD.||

(1.236) ||If he had died it would not be this bad--||

We get a look at what honor and reputation mean to young Telemachus but also of Greek culture. It seems good to die in battle but not so away from home and war. Instead there's a ||waiting which suspends right action. No one knows truly what to do which is the energy we get from the gods at the start of the book. Every god save Poseidon helps our Greek hero. Does that mean that right action must come from the mortals themselves?||

[small zinc]

On further rumination, I find it curious that each of Homer’s works’ Books 1 are not what I expect the verse to begin singing. In The Iliad ||war has already begun and it’s up to the reader to catch up to the story||; and with The Odyssey ||the Muse speaks with tales of Odysseus already at see and working through trials we as readers know nothing about yet. Again, we are meant to catch up to the tale.|| I think this style adds a magical aspect to the story. It reads of something foreign, special. Almost like Aladdin or The Arabian Nights.

[small zinc]

The Odyssey by Homer Book 2

||These suitors are asses. That is all.|| Also this quote surprised me:

(2.59-60) ||I cannot fight against them; / I would be useless. I have had no training.||
How is this so for the son of a king? I get that he’s missing a father but like… no one else could aid in this?
(2.276-277) ||And it is rare for sons to be like fathers; / only a few are better, most are worse.||
Tough words to hear! I think most sons think this. For me personally, it’s something that guides my own life.

[burnt ingot]

Book 2
||The Suitors are so rude.
"As for Odysseus, he has met his fate abroad; and I wish you too had perished with him." -- Eurymachus son of Polybus. bruh stop being a prat.
"Few sons, indeed, are like their fathers. Generally they are worse; but just a few are better.'' Does it mean humanity is becoming more and more terrible.||

[small zinc]

I like that question at the end. I too highlighted that line above. I took it more to heart as a challenge to be better myself rather than a literal ||the world is getting worse because every generation is worse than the last.|| But I do like the question being asked because it's the reason we read epics. Whether it be Lord of the Rings by Tolkien, Homer, or Foundation by Asimov there's usually ||a lull in greatness. The originators are great and then as greatness bleeds out through future lines via laziness, contentment, lose of skills, etc. But fortunately greatness can be found in all of us if we pull it out. If we find a need for it. It's why we need to pay attention to what's going on in the world because while we sleep chaos rules. So to answer your question, potentially every generation is worse but it also has the key and wherewithal to return to greatness if we awaken. We read epics to inspire us to have a great story of our own. One that we can be proud of and tell our littles.|| Great question.

[burnt ingot]

It's interesting to see the differences between two translations. And I actually did not read about the sentence in your 2.59-60.

[small zinc]

It's a great feeling being back with The Odyssey. It's my favorite of this generation of epics

[burnt ingot]

I reread Book 1; this line is so beautiful ||Begin it, goddess, at whatever point you will.||

[small zinc]

The Odyssey by Homer Book 3

Another short Book in this epic but I think it shows a very human relationship between the young and the old:

(3.22-25) ||" ... I am / quite inexperienced in making speeches, / and as a young man, I feel awkward talking / to elders."||

What a real emotion. I've always had a push pull relationship with speaking with ||older folks. On the one hand, I got along with everyone's parents and feel very out of place with folks my own age or younger. On the other hand, as a Native American raised on the rez, elders have a special place in our culture. Elders are supposed to instruct the youth in tradition, however, that's been dramatically disrupted over the years--especially in California with the Mission system. Today, most of my own knowledge comes from elders who've written books; sadly, not everything comes from my own tribe. Anyways, to get back on track, Telemachus experiences his first exposure to great people and the distance between Nestor and him is only stretched because of the massive age difference. If y'all remember from The Iliad, Nestor is the dude who's like: "Back in my day, we forged swords with our hand and used our strong arms as shields. We pulled horses on our backs and conquered walls that Troy only wished it had." Yeah that dude. So for a young almost man to come and speak to someone like this takes a lot of guts.||

What's weird and on topic for The Odyssey is this:

(3.71-74) || " ... Strangers, who are you? Where did you sail from? / Are you on business, or just scouting round / like pirates on the sea, who risk their lives / to ravage foreign homes?"||

Like what?! Who just ||invites randoms with boats into their halls and feeds them massive amounts of food and wine only to ask if they are possibly pirates afterwards? This inviting of strangers into the home as guests is very interesting to me.|| I'm curious how it shakes out as the poem continues.

[tight herald]

Book 1 || It was a fun read, but left me with a lot of questions. The gods have the ability to enforce their own revenge on mortals (Poseidon’s anger of Odysseus), but are restricted in their power to support other mortals (Athena/other gods working with Odysseus and Telemachus). Does this mean there is some moral standard? How come the gods do not fight among themselves over Odysseus’ return to Ithaca? ||

[burnt ingot]

i thought about that too, ||the gods apparently favor Odysseus, but Poseidon was able to exile him. Maybe he had the gods' acquiescence to do it.||

[small zinc]

I think there’s a few things at play:

||. Gods control their area of focus. Odysseus is on the sea and therefore Poseidon rules and cannot be overruled by another god in his area.
. Gods seem to not “undo” divine action. If a god gives you a big nose, only that god can make your nose small again. But they can do other things like adjust your entire body size so the nose fits the face. It’s about skirting around the action, which is why the gods/especially Athena tries to do her best to give Poseidon sacrifices so that he’ll undo his wrath and allow Odysseus swift return. Notice that he doesn’t kill Odysseus but only hampers his travel on the seas and with creatures under his control: like horses and cyclopssss.||

[small zinc]

The Odyssey Book 4
||Not much to report despite the double in length chapter. Well… except that Helen of Sparta—I mean Troy—I mean Sparta is back in Sparta and in love with Menelaus. Of all the dudes who would be upset about unworthy men needling their way into a marriage, I suppose he is the one to be most upset by the suitors. ||Still, I think the most powerful line of all in this chapter was this:

(4.96-96) || I wish I had stayed here, with just a third / of all the treasure I have now acquired, ||
Cool, cool, cool. ||But then we wouldn’t have The Iliad xD and all those people would have lived.||

That being said, I kinda feel like this is a loss. I’m not even sure what the point of this is:

(4.260-265) ||The Trojan women keened in grief, but I / was glad—by then I wanted to go home. / I wished that Aphrodite had not made me / go crazy, when she took me from my country, / and made me leave my daughter and the bed / I shared with my fine, handsome, clever husband.”||
This is ||Helen of Troy spotting Odysseus lurking enemy lines and then relaying the story to, most likely, noble Trojan women. I mean… she’s been Helen of Troy for near a decade… kinda late to be like, well, I guess I miss my old husband. But idk. I do think it’s a person’s right to choose who they marry (not that that’s accurate for the time) but come on. A whole war was waged with a 1000 Greek ships. All the dead. All the lost souls on voyage home. A burned city. I mean FUCK.||

[meager epoch]

You be zooming along!! I’m planning to start soon

[small zinc]

A book a day keeps Zeus at bay

[tight herald]

Ohh that makes a lot of sense 😯

[small zinc]

The Odyssey Book 5
||Odysseus is a free elf man! I have a hard time separating Calypso and Circe. I may need to spend some time differentiating the two goddesses because their stories seem very similar. I actually thought for a moment that they were the same but had translation spelling differences but my map shows the two names and on different islands.

I wonder if it would choose to stay with Calypso. Become immortal? Live in peace? No more voyage? Sounds pretty nice and it’s been a lot of years since being home. Wife probably moved on—though we know this isn’t true (mostly). His son though is a huge reason to go home. Idk. I feel like a bad person saying that I might have chosen to stay with the goddess. Wild stuff.

Okay so coooool. He has a raft and makes a “fun” voyage. Seems like we learn that Athena is the reason he landed with Calypso at all. I’m a bit confused on why Odysseus is being punished at all. Is it the Trojan horse? Did he not ask Poseidon whether he could use the figure if a horse for his trick (the god has dominion over horses)? In The Iliad, it’s Hera and Poseidon who work together for the benefit of Achilles and the Greeks, so I’m not understanding the punishing of such a great Greek hero.

Thank the gods that Ino was there. Odysseus is starting to make decisions based on fear and didn’t initially dive into the sea. That could have done him in for good. But fortunately, he’s permitted the bear the scarf and make it to land. I’m also confused asf on the map where he’s at. The names in the chapters don’t seem to like up with the map.||

I love this imagery!

(5.431-434) || As when an octopus, dragged from its den, / has many pebbles sticking to its suckers, / so his strong hands were skinned against the rocks.||

[tight herald]

Book 5 || I have so many questions. It’s been discussed in book 1 and the beginning of book 5 that the sky gods (specifically Zeus and Athena) are in favor of Odysseus’ return home saying that “he has endured enough.” Yet it’s been expressed in two instances that the two very same people were the reason he ended up stranded on the island with Calypso ||

|| [...] they wronged Athena. She roused the wind and surging sea against them and all his brave companions were destroyed, while he himself was blown here by the waves. ||

|| Zeus pinned his ship and with his flash of lightning smashed it to pieces. ||

|| The past mention of suitors, the tragic death of Agamemnon, and Odysseus’ pain as he stares at the “fruitless sea” made me shocked to see that Odysseus was unfaithful to his wife on the day Calypso had told him that he could leave the island. Now I question the love between him and Penelope ||

|| Also, I noticed how Odysseus blamed Zeus for the “mighty wave” that Poseidon pushes onto him right before Ino comes to his aid. Is there a specific reason for this? Is Odysseus unaware of who Poseidon is? Or perhaps he believes that only one of the most powerful god’s could inflict this much pain onto him? ||

|| I find it quite interesting to see the “system” of gods. Calypso follows the orders of Zeus after being visited by Hermes saying “[The sky gods] are more powerful than me; they get their way.” I’m not too familiar with Greek mythology, but I definitely feel the gods in the book are neutral (in that they aren’t good nor evil). I mean, why is there the presence of “slave girls” that serve Calypso?|| and also in book 4 || Menelaus said he was made to go back to Egypt to kill 100 cows "to please the deathless gods who live in heaven." ||

[small zinc]

If memory serves, (Book 5) ||Calypso is a nymph which is basically like a watered-down god. Sort of like a small town politician compared to governor/senator of a state. They have power but only keep their autonomy as long as the higher ups have nothing to say. And the higher ups might have lots of power but the president/Zeus has veto power (though could have life made very hard if doesn’t along with majority of congress/sky gods).

I’m not surprised by Odysseus’s infidelity for a couple reasons:
. Mortals rarely say no to immortals without dying and coming back home is important to him.
. Sex outside of marriage might not have the same weight as it does, today.||

[tight herald]

About Poseidon (book 1) || I think in book 1 it says that he's punishing Odysseus because he destroyed the eye of his strongest Cyclopes son, Polyphemus so it's like revenge wonder what Odysseus can do to make up for it to get out of his punishment ||

[small zinc]

Ah. Yes. This is true. Im just not sure when that happened. Are we getting some story about the ride to and from Troy? Like that happened on the way to Troy and is now punished for that action on the way back?

Because I think that story gets told in the book but it might be a memory, so I’m not sure on timing.

[tight herald]

Ahh right! || I noticed that she was sometimes referred to as a goddess, would that be more like a general term? Kind of like how a city councillor and governor would both be considered politicians? ||

|| Oh true, that's a really good point I guess the only time mortals can say no is if the higher ups order it. ||

[small zinc]

Your comment about the ||”fruitless sea”|| made me think about something. A lot of the time the ||sea is referred to as the “wine-dark sea”|| I’m curious if this is a motif for something like success or right-action. They are opposites and so one says that ||the trip was worth it and the other curses the trip to Troy.||

[small zinc]

Yeah it’s really liberal use of the word for sure. We usually think of the big pantheon when we think of that word. I think she’s more or less on par with Achilles’s mom Thetis, who might even be a step above her even.

[small zinc]

The Odyssey Book 6

Not too much to report but my head canon says that ||the Princess and her companions were playing dodgeball.||

[small zinc]

The Odyssey by Homer Book 7

||Odysseus sure has some nice vacations between his torturous days at sea. Gold, silver, and bronze OH MY! Again, Homer sends the message that welcoming guests, strangers as they may be, is always the right course of action—even before knowing the person’s tale. It is better to think the best of individuals than to think the worst of them. It’s interesting that Odysseus doesn’t always feel this way because he’s often distrustful and hedges his decisions with a cunning eye:||

(7.304-308) ||“Please do not blame her. She told me to come / here with her slaves, but I was too embarrassed, / and nervous. I thought you might get annoyed / at seeing me. We humans on this earth / are apt to be suspicious.”||
I wonder if this’ll be a lesson he learns to correct or if this attitude will become worse over time.

[burnt ingot]

Book 5
||Calypso is much nicer and sweeter than I have expected
"A cruel folk you are, unmatched for jealousy, you gods who cannot bear to let a goddess sleep with a man, even if it is done without concealment and she has chosen him. as her lawful consort." It's interesting that the immortals only punish/interfere goddesses' affairs but not those of gods; as if a female has intercourses with several opposite sex, she'll be deemed as evil/impure, where as it shall be seen as an honor or merit if a man does so.||

[small zinc]

!! Yes! So I love this discussion. (Book 5) ||It’s a total double standard. But what makes it worthy of debate is the words “lawful consort”. Odysseus is married and has a family. Do the gods not honor marriage? Does Greek society? Moreover, we learn in that chapter that Calypso wishes to make Odysseus an immortal—how? I don’t know but I think there’s some story of a fisherman who becomes an immortal and takes advantage of his “creator” goddess—could have been Calypso or Circe now that I think about it. I think that story is in Stephen Fry’s book Greek Gods. But yeah… it’s a total double standard. However, at the risk of upsetting folks, I think it’s worth talking about how Calypso basically abducts Odysseus for seven years against his will, forces him to make love to her, and it’s the will of Athena that ultimately alters Zeus’s mind and thereby getting the gods involved.|| Lots to talk about here for sure.

[burnt ingot]

||I think she can plead Zeus to make Odysseus immortal the way Eros did. Zeus offered Pysche ambrosia and she became immortal as she married Eros.||

[small zinc]

Gotcha gotcha. I kinda wonder if ||Athena would have liked Odysseus as a god. He offers her great tribute being a mortal and she would lose that if he were a god—perhaps.||

[burnt ingot]

Book 6
||I love book 6! It's a bit light-hearted and in good humor.
"but Athene swept through like a breach of air to the girl's bed, leant over the head of it and spoke to her disguising herself as the daughter of a ship's captain named Dymas, a woman of Nausicaa's own age and one of her bosom friends.
'Nausicaa," said bright-eyed Athene, imitating her friend's voice, 'how did your mother come to have such a lazy daughter as you?'" Imagine your bff just came out of no where and talk to (roast) you while you are sleeping .
"Let us go and do some washing together the first thing in the morning." Does a goddess know how to do laundry too? (and later Athene goes to Olympus instead)||

[open kayak]

Okay I recently decided to read this so might as well join the br

[small zinc]

Welcome!

[small zinc]

The Odyssey Book 8

Story packed chapter but I feel like I’ve read the ||poet’s stories in other places with different versions. Like the story with Vulcan I thought took place outside by a waterfall rather than in the bed. I also don’t remember Menelaus being with Odysseus in the Trojan horse.

Also, Odysseus is a weepy boy. You’d think Poseidon would be happy with him because he refilled all the oceans.||

[burnt ingot]

Book 8
||Nice to hear about the gods' lives up on the mountains. The songs must related to the epic in some ways. Will the immortals punish bards if they sing about them wrongly or paint the plots with imagination?||
Book 9
||okay so basically Odysseus and his crew were pillaging, and Zeus was pissed off||

[warm canyon]

I just realized we never had an announcement for this buddy read

[storm portal]

I just realized we
never had an announcement
for this buddy read

- Tink

[warm canyon]

Thank you buddy

[scarlet quarry]

@burnt ingot Hi there, your BR has started about a week ago. Are you still interested in leading the BR? I cannot see any announcements, pings or questions from you. Please let me know.

In the case of a no-show, would anyone else be interested in leading the BR?

[burnt ingot]

Hey!
I started late [two days ago] since I was busy with guests and stuff and now I’m behind and embarrassed to update my not so up to date thoughts 😭

[scarlet quarry]

I see, no worries! Just wanted to make sure you're aware of the leader responsibilities here. BR leaders are supposed to ping participants so that the are aware the BR has started. since that hasn't happened yet, I just wanted to check in with you and ask if you still wanted to lead

[burnt ingot]

Oooooo, I didn’t know that!

So so sorry!

[scarlet quarry]

okay, not a problem at all. But now that you know about it, are you still interested in leading the BR? there are a couple more things that we ask BR leaders to do

if you're not sure what to do, we can help you with it all, just need confirmation whether you want to keep leading the BR or not

[small zinc]

The Odyssey Book 9

||Sooo I kinda think that Odysseus is just a dick. He’s really coming off “great”: pillage, rape, and then taunt. Seems like his modus operandi. If he had just left the escape to what it was then he and his men would have made it home with “honor”. But no, we get this instead—a curse:||

(9.528-536) ||‘Listen, Earth-Shaker, Blue-Haired Lord Poseidon: / acknowledge me your son, and be my father. / Grant that Odysseus, the city-sacker, / will never go back home. Or if it is / fated that he will see his family, / then let him get there late and with no honor, / in pain and lacking ships, and having caused / the death of all his men, and let him find / more trouble in his own house.’||

[small zinc]

Hahaha. Your Book 9 comment. Yeah that basically sums it up and then ||Odysseus basically peed in Poseidon’s pool so now he suffers.||

[burnt ingot]

Did he? Did he ||do something with Poseidon's pool|| in Book 9?

[small zinc]

Oh it was an expression like “kick a hornet’s nest”. He ||peed in a pool, which by pool, I meant ocean. But not literally peed. It was about upsetting Poseidon via his son, Polyphemus.||

[burnt ingot]

Wow okay, good to know. It isn't in my version so i was bewildered lol

[burnt ingot]

I’d like to just participate this time and I’ll ask about leading properly next time around!

[scarlet quarry]

okayy!

Is anyone here interested in taking over the BR?

[storm portal]

Is anyone here
interested in taking
over the BR?

- Laelia ☁

[burnt ingot]

i can if no one else volunteers

[small zinc]

The Odyssey Book 10

||Cool cool. More giants eating his men. Loses all his ships save the one he’s on. Loyal men become not so loyal and release the wind. Supposedly loyal men land on Circe’s island and split into two groups. The not Odysseus group finds Circe and gets turned into pigs, save one. That most loyal man comes back weeping about his lost friends and Odysseus says he will go bring them back. Hermes does him a solid and says “take some herb and sleep with Circe after forcing her to bind herself with vows on the gods.” 👀. Yup. Circe seems okay with all this—sorta. But after a year of being treated well, Odysseus and most loyalest of loyal loyalist men say they wish to depart for home. Circe is like: “Cool. But one more thing. Venture to Hades.”

The more I read this book, the more I dislike Odysseus. He comes across as overly entitled, which I guess as a king… he is. Perhaps by story end it’s supposed to show his character development after hitting rock bottom (if he should only be so lucky with all the water he’s floating across).

https://tenor.com/view/uncle-chan-one-more-thing-jackie-chan-jackie-jackie-chan-adventure-gif-15699811 ||

[scarlet quarry]

great, thank you!! i gave you the BR leader role just now!

[burnt ingot]

okayy ty < 33

[small zinc]

https://tenor.com/view/o-captain-captain-my-captain-o-captain-my-captain-dead-poets-dead-poets-society-gif-17610151

[burnt ingot]

hei guys I'm taking over the BR

FALL TO, AND WELCOME.
@chilly carbon @limber lion @fresh moat @marsh egret @late wasp @minor dome @north moss @warm canyon @meager epoch @opaque island @burnt ingot @ruby zenith @cosmic stratus @burnt ingot @small zinc @south nova @tight herald @open kayak @tribal cove

Here's a couple of Qs to help you get onboard!
⛵ Have you read any work from Homer before?
⚓ What makes a hero in your heart?
🌊 Have you started this book? If yes, what do you think of it so far?

I will ask questions weekly and check in with your progress. Looking forward to hearing your amazing discussions; happy reading y'all!

This BR started about a week ago, please react to this message if you need more time to read it.
for 'I need one more week.'
for 'I need more than one week.'

[burnt ingot]

wow I LOVE Dead Poets Society

[small zinc]

Same :))

[burnt ingot]

Book 10
||First of all, IS THE AFFAIR REALLY NECESSARY??? Circe sounds so cool in the book; Odysseus doesn't deserve these; she must just love animals.
It's remarkable that Odysseus doesn't grudge his "good comrades" for their "rascal-crew-deeds." Kingly movement of his. I feel so sad for them when they get blown away from homeland, although they are all jerks.||

[meager epoch]

thanks for leading seapotato!

⛵ yes! I read the Iliad with this server and loved it!
⚓ a hero, for me, overcomes adverse circumstances and achieves the extraordinary
🌊 I haven’t started it yet I want to finish some currently reading books (ahem Count of Monte Cristo ahem) and I’ll dive right into this one! Would love if there’s an extension, but I’ll also work with whatever end date

[burnt ingot]

⛵ Have you read any work from Homer before?
No, not really.
⚓ What makes a hero in your heart?
Doing 'the right thing' for a 'good purpose.' It's pretty subjective.
🌊 Have you started this book? If yes, what do you think of it so far?
Yep, Odysseus is definitely something.

[opaque island]

⛵ Have you read any work from Homer before?
No. Will likely read The Iliad this year.

⚓ What makes a hero in your heart?
Has the courage to truly overcome his own biggest fear.

🌊 Have you started this book?
Not yet, but planning on starting this weekend.

[burnt ingot]

Book 11
||Story time! That's a helluva lot of ghosts. Once again Muse's telling a story about Odysseus' telling a story... Interesting that it reflects on the theme destiny&human agency and just gods laying with ppl. ||

[tribal cove]

I'm reading Robert Fagles's translation.

Not sure how much time left for reading beside my work, but I'm joining in

⛵ Have you read any work from Homer before?
No
⚓ What makes a hero in your heart?
Brave, intelligent, determined, maybe willing to sacrifice him/herself for others
🌊 Have you started this book? If yes, what do you think of it so far?
I read two chapters months ago. Greek gods appeared in the book..?

[small zinc]

The Odyssey Book 11
||Odysseus goes to Hades and meets many warriors and women. Notable figures are his mother, Achilles, Agamemnon, Ajax, Hercules, and more. They drink truth-telling blood and then speak to him.||

(11.198-203) ||(Odysseus’s mother) The goddess did not shoot me in my home, / aiming with gentle arrows. Nor did sickness / suck all the strength out from my limbs, with long / and cruel wasting. No, it was missing you, / Odysseus, my sunshine; your sharp mind, / and your kind heart. That took sweet life from me.’||
I think this quote represents the tone of the entire work. ||So much death and for what? Some trinkets? Back in Book 2 was it, Menelaus says that he wishes he stayed home and stayed a poorer man than go to war. Although, I still find it interesting that Helen came back to Sparta. But anyways, people are dying because of sadness. Sadness that their strong generations left Greece for more than a decade and many did not return.||

[burnt ingot]

Book 12
||We finally can put together what Odysseus went through. Quite a long and dreadful journey, but most of it was his own fault.
His fate was very much foreshadowed tho, since why include all these detailed descriptions when he would not fall through these pits.||

[small zinc]

Yea it feels satisfying (book 12) ||that we get the full puzzle of Odysseus‘s travels thus far. It’s like I said in Book 1, Homer likes to plant their stories in the middle of the story rather than at the beginning. We the reader have to play catch up and it seems that by the halfway point we have. Now for his adventure home!||

[burnt ingot]

Book 13
||It has been so long, and I genuinely can't recall what Telemachus was doing. And Odysseus is a redhead : 0||

[small zinc]

You’re taking my lead! I only do one book a day so I shall check this out tomorrow :))

[burnt ingot]

spoiler for Book 4-13, about what Odysseus went through, iirc
||Odysseus and his crew robbed a place and met the Lotus-Eaters before they ran into the Cyclops. They then blinded him(Polyphemus) and got grudged by Poseidon. They visited the floating island of Aeolia next, Odysseus told some stories and was sent near home, but he fell asleep and crew men released the Winds, so they disembarked on Aeolian Isle again. Nobles were mad and dismissed them. They set off by themselves and got mauled by more giants. They fled to Circe's castle and later went to Hades’ Hall and back to Circe once again. Circe helped them to get home only the crew members slayed a cattle of Sun's, after they slipped through the Sirens, Scylla and Charybdis, thus they didn't make it home after all. Zeus punished them, only Odysseus was left, weeping a lot for everything. Odysseus drifted onto the Isle of Ogygia and Calypso kept him for seven years until Hermes told her to let him go. Gallant man sailed again, not before long Poseidon spurned against him again, luckily Ino popped up and gave a veil to him. Odysseus swimmed to the Phaeacians’ country with it, Nausicaa pointed Odysseus a way to her father, Lord Alcinous’s palace. Where he was received, and he spilled some stories again. Alcinous showered his guest with gifts and sent him home. Odysseus finally reached Ithaca, and Athene came to help him kick the Suitors’ asses. However, Poseidon was still angry and turned the returning Phaeacian ship into a stone. Pharacians made a sacrifice to Poseidon, hoping he would have pity and not hem their country with touring mountains. Back to Odysseus, Athene disguised him and turned her heels to fetch Telemachus from Menelaus’ palace.||

[burnt ingot]

Book 14
||More stories from our gallant King Odysseus!|| Also I'm finally more than half way through the book; kinda amazing that it has 365 pages in total

[open kayak]

hello new leader

⛵ Nope, never read any Homer before.
⚓ I think someone who goes above and beyond to achieve a goal and help others in the process
🌊 I haven't yet but I'll probably be starting in about a week to give myself enough time to read.

I don't think I'll need an extension if we're still finishing on the 25th but I'll give a shout if I'm struggling!

[burnt ingot]

Book 15
||Sorta sad that ppl are doing willful things and causing tragedies, but that's what they all do. Our prince is returning! He did not undergo many physically difficulties as he's not the main hero here. Methink that Odysseus will still have his disguise on when he meets his son and all.||

[small zinc]

That about sums it up. Finally here myself. (Book 13) ||And he’s finally home! Reminds me of Robin Hood Prince of Thieves when he gets home and kisses the English soil.

Not gonna lie though… Odysseus all worried about his treasure just bugs me so much. I mean maybe it’s important because otherwise why did he even go? He has to have something to show for his effort but it just bothers me so much.||

[waxen timber]

i think i’ll give up, i’m in a reading slump and i don’t want to force myself to read this

[tribal cove]

Book 3
|| I really enjoy reading the descriptions of greek people being a host, and how the rite proceed. || There is a little message of like father like son, wondering if this is a hint to latter part of the story.

[tribal cove]

3.22-25 in Fagles's edition is, || "How can I greet him, Mentor, even approach the king? I'm hardly adept at subtle conversation. Someone my age might feel shy, what's more, interrogating an older man." ||
I read your thought on this and think you might want to read the other version of translation.

[burnt ingot]

Okk, see you next time 👋

[small zinc]

⛵️ Yes. I’ve read The Odyssey twice before this read (both with Fagles translation). I’ve read The Iliad twice (including the buddy read a couple months ago) (once with Fagles and once with Caroline Alexander).
⚓️ As cliché as it sounds, I believe courage to be the foundation of heroism. To rise above one’s fears is no small task, and the measurement of said virtue cannot be quantifiable to its size. People are heroes for taking the medicine they need; people are heroes for raising children; people are heroes for running towards danger; people are heroes for speaking up; people are heroes for leaving the safety and stability of home in search of reputation and wealth that will build a stronger generations in their families to come.
🌊 I did start. I’m about 60% through the work. I enjoy Homer as it feels so different from the works of today and yet there’s timeless jewels to discover and polish. I think there’s a bit of internal pushback when I read some of the actions and reactions of Odysseus because he doesn’t come across as “noble” or even courageous to me most of the time. However, I think some of that is me not looking as deeply into the text as needed nor completely being in simpatico with the time period and their values. Rereading certainly helps as I can focus less on the plot and more on the meaning.

[small zinc]

The Odyssey Book 14

||This pig herder has got a goldmine in the pipeline because of his hospitality. That’s certainly the biggest theme I’m picking up from The Odyssey. Treat all people well and without prejudice.||

[warm canyon]

I don’t think I responded to these questions yet, so here I go

⛵ I read The Iliad with this group earlier this year, and I read Odyssey in high school
⚓ I would say I don’t really use the word hero. Idk I just feel like it’s really over-wrought and overused. Def not Odysseus lol
🌊 Planning to start in a few weeks.

[burnt ingot]

Just a warm reminder that this BR will end in less than 3 weeks as on August 24th, please give a shout if you need an extension or you want to dnf it. Also, if you have started, we'd love to hear your thoughts on the book, please participate in the discussion to earn the BR points!

Happy reading!!

Reading status (correct me if something's wrong)
haven't started: @chilly carbon @limber lion @fresh moat @marsh egret @late wasp @minor dome@north moss @warm canyon @meager epoch @ruby zenith @cosmic stratus @south nova @open kayak @opaque island
reading: @small zinc @burnt ingot @tight herald @burnt ingot @tribal cove

[meager epoch]

I anticipate I'll need an extension (if others are also game)

[burnt ingot]

Book 16
||"Like a fond father welcoming back his son after nine years abroad, his only son, the apple of his eyes and the centre of all his anxious cares, the admirable swineherd threw his arms round Prince Telemachus and showered kisses on him as though he had just escaped from death."
I know it's probably just a simile, but it's so weird Homer likened Eumaeus to a fond father of Telemachus', and why "nine years," did I miss something important?.
"...and the beard grew black on his chin." Odysseus with his red-brown hair and black beard?? OKay, kinda dank.||

[opaque island]

I will also need an extension

I haven’t started yet @burnt ingot was planning on starting last weekend but have not managed to accomplish that as of yet

[burnt ingot]

Ooh okay, thank you for letting me know

[obtuse token]

Circe rules....

[burnt ingot]

yesss she rules

[burnt ingot]

wait are you in this BR

[burnt ingot]

Book 17&18
||Odysseus sure has quick wits as the cunning old superman he is. Athene is really eager for the fight; I see some say she's the goddess of defensive war, but some say she's simply the goddess of warfare.

"Modesty such as that does not make successful beggars."
It's so funny to me for no good reason.||

[small zinc]

The Odyssey Book 16

||Sweet reunion! Shit about to go down against these suitors. I love how into the revenge the father and son are but also how much Athena is chomping at the bit to sink her teeth into these assholes.||

[burnt ingot]

Book 19
||Odysseus was giving the young prince instructions -- with the exact same words he uttered before. Man's gotten a golden memory.||

||"He owned his pre-eminence to the god Hermes himself, whose favour he sought by sacrificing lambs and kids in his honour, and in whom he secured a willing confederate."

HE SACRIFICED LAMBS AND WHAT ||

[burnt ingot]

Why was E. V. Rieu using both "gibe" and "jibe" in his translation lol.

[storm portal]

Why was E. V. Rieu
using both "gibe" and "jibe" in
his translation lol.

- .milkysea

[small zinc]

The Odyssey Book 17

||Oh boy. These suitors are just fanning the flames. How is it that they’ve all lost their morality by a single person leaving? Is there really no honor amongst anyone in power?||

||Shame is not a friend to those in need.||
Heartbreaking that it comes to this.

[small zinc]

The Odyssey Book 18

(Avatar the Last Airbender spoilers) ||Okay when Odysseus turned beefcake and destroyed the other beggar, it totally reminded me of when Iroh is in jail and hides his working out and meal eating to get strong.

Penelope’s role is interesting in all this.

At this point I’ve kinda lost track of which suitor is which. Most are just assholes, so it kinda doesn’t matter too much.||

[small zinc]

Oh interesting. I think we did the same quote for book 17 but it’s a translation difference.

[small zinc]

The Odyssey Book 19

The ||feet chapter! Imagine remembering your master’s feet for twenty years. I mean sure… the scar… but really we all know it was the feet.

This plan of Odysseus’s does seem to be working pretty well and less random than I thought it would be.

I dislike how Odysseus treats people who are lesser than him though. He bites at his old maid when she offers up help. Is he that arrogant that he cannot take kindly help even if he needs it not?||

[small zinc]

||Kids are are baby goats. xD ||

[burnt ingot]

You are zooming Yes, I totally agree with your opinion on the ||feet!||

[small zinc]

Yeah I just need a couple of my books to end and this is an easier one to read together. The story feels more together now than in previous books.

[open kayak]

I'm going to do the audiobook of E. V. Rieu's translation for this, hopefully making a start this week,

[small zinc]

The Odyssey Book 20

(A Storm of Swords by George R.R. Martin spoilers) ||The ending of this book reminded me a lot of the lead up to The Red Wedding. All these lords drinking… it’s the hour before destruction.||

[small zinc]

The Odyssey Book 21

||A little Robin Hood action it seems xD.||

_ _
The Odyssey Book 22

(22.15-16) ||Odysseus aimed at his throat, then shot. / The point pierced all the way through his (Antinous) soft neck.||
Fuuuuck.

Also it sucks to be ||Melanthius—completely ripped apart. Betrayal is the worst.||

[burnt ingot]

Book 20
|| "Or did you leave him to sleep as best he could? That would be just like my mother, who for all her wisdom is far too ready to make much of a ne'er-do-well and send a better man packing" Telemachus is so mean to his mother. 😭 ||

[small zinc]

Book 24

And done! The last lines ||felt a bit rushed but I suppose myths are rarely fleshed out and it’s up to future generations to make the fish bigger than it was.

Peace for all except the slaughter of suitors, 12 house girls, a traitor, and many from the families of the suitors.||

I’ll write my thoughts on the whole poem in a while.

[burnt ingot]

Congrats! Great job!👏

[small zinc]

Thanks! You’re close to finishing too!

[burnt ingot]

Book 21
||"Shedding his rags..." is gallant man going commando||

||Odysseus is so rabid when he shot Antinous omdl||

[tribal cove]

Book 4
|| King Menelaus welcomes Telemachus and Pisistratus before knowing who they are. Next we see the famous Hellen makes a confession in this book. I'm surprised that she said herself is a w**** (line162) ||
|| Then we know the stories of Agamemnom and some news of Odysseus through Menelaus' talking. At the end, the setting shift back to the palace where Penelope is at. ||

I see some similarities between Eidothea and Medea, || they both sort of betrayed their father. ||

[burnt ingot]

I only have the last 10 pages to go🥹

[small zinc]

Do you not want to finish?

[burnt ingot]

i do wanna finish it

[small zinc]

Oh, I thought you were in one of those "it's so good I don't want to finish it" moments per the: 🥹

[burnt ingot]

nawr, the 🥹 is the tearing up ||sweet as the sight of land to sailors struggling in the sea||

[burnt ingot]

I FINISHED THE BOOK

It's such a ride, and the part from ||Odysseus talked to Penelope|| to ||he visited his father|| is my favourite. We had a lot of ||identity theft, mainly from Odysseus and Athene||. The ending is a bit ||drafty|| but it left me wanting more.

[tribal cove]

Book 5
|| So Odysseus has been kept on a beautiful island with a charming nymph/goddess for years. He stays with her for the night, but facing the sea and crying during the daytime. I think it won't be called unfaithful entirely? It could be the nymph cast spells and make Odysseus love her. However, at the last night, it says they back to the cave with love. This part bothers me. ||
There are so many new vocabularies in the paragraphs where describing the island, if only I knew them all ...

Then here comes || Poseidon! I thought only Zeus can control the weather. I wonder why Hermes didn't send msg to him. Or Poseidon is against Zeus's order publicly? ||

[tight herald]

Ohh I missed this message

⛵ No, first time
⚓ An empathetic, altruistic person
🌊 Ya, but I paused for a week so far, its a very fun and adventurous read. I was intimated at first when I heard it was discussing Greek mythology and nearly written so long ago

[tight herald]

Book 8 || It's interesting to see how guests are so warmly welcomed into a strangers home and given valuable gifts like the Phaeacians do for Odysseus because Zeus loves the needy and therefore, they are making libations to him through Odysseus. However, their society still has slaves so I wonder if the term slaves is different to how modern society defines it. Are the slaves in The Odyssey respected and treated kindly? 🤔 It seems that reality is the Greeks value appearance over anything else, which is how Athena helped Odysseus after he reached Phaeacia ||

Also || Is it just me or do the gods seem indecisive, with Poseidon seemingly loving Phaeacians yet also hating them for helping guests cross the sea. It surprises me how much Phaeacians respect the gods, but disregard the prophecy that one day their ships will be shipwrecked from their involvement with guests crossing the sea Seems kinda like a catch-22 😉 (iykyk) where they must help the needy to appease Zeus or appease Poseidon by not helping guests to prevent a shipwreck||

[tight herald]

Book 9 || So let me get this straight, Odysseus and his men uninvitingly landed their ships on Polyphemus' land, outright expected gifts as though Polyphemus was the rude one, got him drunk, stabbed him in the eye, stole his food, and taunted him. Idc if Polyphemus ate some of their men, it kind of feels like they were asking for it honestly One thing that I'm a bit confused about is that Polyphemus said that him and the other Cyclops' think nothing of Zeus nor any god, yet in the end he prays to Poseidon to seek vengeance on Odysseus, calling Poseidon his father ||

[burnt ingot]

Yea, I thought Polyphemus was being ||arrogant and brutal as he belittled the gods and ate some of the crew men raw||

[tight herald]

|| does everyone in The Odyssey abide by the same gods? I think i've been looking at it like religion where not everyone follows the same religion or even is religious 😯 ||

[tribal cove]

Book 6
|| · I'm glad Odysseus tells the maids not to bathe him. His acts still looks like a hero to me now.
· I'm worried when young princess, Nausicaa, tells the total stranger how to get close to king and queen. How does she know she can trust this man, just because he looks godlike? How does she know the man has no bad intentions now and in the future?
· I hope Odysseus won't hold queen's knees as what the princess told him to. ||

[tribal cove]

Book 7
|| · With all the fruit trees grow in the garden and crafts on both sides of the door, I think the king of Phaeacia is favored by gods.
· The ancestry of the king Alcinous and queen Arete seems important part of this book. Just like the ancestry of king Menelaus and queen Helen.
· I wonder if Poseidon would rage once he learned that his offsprings are helping Odysseus. It's a bit ironic. ||

[burnt ingot]

||I'm not sure but I guess they do. And different gods regulate different things. After all it's Greek mythology.||

[burnt ingot]

I love your insights! Great progress

[tribal cove]

Thanks for the encouragement! it's just my reading notes

[tight herald]

Book 19 || Why Odysseus gotta do the old woman like that I get that she would’ve ruined his plans if she were to reveal the truth to Penelope, but she can’t read his mind. She even showed the best intention, to tell him which slave girls are bad. Instead of politely shushing her, even just showing some sort of warmth to their reunion, he threatens her life not cool bro ||

Also about book 18 || dangggg not the tea coming out about the slave girl Melantho sleeping with one of the suitors even though she was raised like a daughter by Queen Penelope shows the disloyalty and deceitfulness that even slaves have in the house of Odysseus…not that surprised the suitors would do this though ||

[small zinc]

Honestly not all. My edition doesn’t exactly allude to ||a forced situation but I’m surprised it wasn’t stated more clearly. Not a great bunch of guys.||

[tight herald]

Actually ya I definitely see what you mean, chapter 20 || makes it clearer when it talks about the suitors immoral behaviour ||

[small zinc]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-no-gif-21780817

[tight herald]

Chapter 22

|| Playtime is over. - Odysseus||

[tight herald]

Finished || The Odyssey was a fun, adventurous book (aside from the massacre of suitors, slave girls, suitor's dad, fallen Greek warriors from the Trojan war, and maybe more). I must admit there were some parts that were tedious to get through only because they were already spoiled by prophecies mentioned in earlier passages. I felt like by the beginning we pretty much knew Odysseus would return to Ithaca and fight off the suitors, but the bloodshed scene in book 22 was actually quite entertaining in my perspective funny to see the shift in character of all the suitors after discovering it was Odysseus||

|| I still think that this likely could have all been avoided if Odysseus hadn't been so cocky with Polyphemus bro could've gotten away with it and not been punished by Poseidon for a decade if he had just shut up and sailed away with his men, but noooooo he just had to taunt the Cyclops and reveal his name also I get that Odysseus is cunning and lord of lies but you really had to do Laertes like that after 20 years of greiving for you ||

|| Is it bad I kinda laughed at the death of Eupeithes? that last part of The Odyssey did him dirty. Within what felt like a maximum of 5 minutes, he declared vengeance on Odysseus over Antinous' death, immediately got killed by Laertes, then everyone just left and called a truce ||

[burnt ingot]

Congrats!

[opaque island]

Now that the Count of Monte Cristo is out of the way, I can finally start this one.

[small zinc]

https://tenor.com/view/moana-gif-25791882

[opaque island]

Hmm would it make more sense to The Iliad first?

Ok according to google, it is recommended to read The Iliad first, although not essential. So i’m gonna jump out of the br as i won’t have enough time to read both by the deadline.

[open kayak]

Yeah I don’t think I’ll have time to read The Iliad first but I’ll still read this

I need to go and pick up my library hold but I’m thinking of starting next week

[small zinc]

There’s one book where it’d be helpful to kinda know some back story but even then it’s really not.

[open kayak]

Yeah I'm not sure I can read both in a week given how big my tbr is but I might do a summary of The Iliad or something if I need the info.

[small zinc]

Idk if it’s even about knowing the events of the book as much as the vibe of character relationships over time tbh. There’s really next to no talk about the events of The Iliad in The Odyssey. Even the tone of the books feel strongly different. You’ll be completely fine reading The Odyssey without The Iliad and arguably I think most start with The Odyssey because of school—more to talk about in a school setting than all the war of The Iliad. At least snippets of The Odyssey. We did The Aeneid by Virgil and The Iliad by Homer in uni and it was basically taken for granted that we were supposed to have to had read The Odyssey in high school already.

[burnt ingot]

I was thinking to postpone the ddl to August 31th, would it help

[burnt ingot]

Just a warm reminder that this BR will end in 1 week as on August 24th (an extension to August 31th is on the way!). Also, if you have started, we'd love to hear your thoughts on the book, please participate in the discussion to earn the BR points!

Happy reading!!

Reading status (correct me if something's wrong)
haven't started: @chilly carbon @limber lion @fresh moat @marsh egret @late wasp @minor dome@north moss @warm canyon @meager epoch @ruby zenith @cosmic stratus @south nova @open kayak
reading: @burnt ingot @tribal cove
finished: @small zinc @burnt ingot @tight herald

Some questions to answer as you're reading (awesome job!):
🐑 Did your opinion of this book change as you read it? How?
🍷 Were there any quotes (or passages) that stood out to you? Why?
🧀 Who's your favourite character? Why?

[warm canyon]

Planning to start in a few days so I should be done by the deadline

[storm portal]

Planning to start in
a few days so I should be
done by the deadline

- Tink

[burnt ingot]

Great!

[meager epoch]

I think chronologically the Iliad is before odyssey but not technically required? They seem to be thematically difference

[small zinc]

🐑 Did your opinion of this book change as you read it? How?

Actually, it did! I used to think this was my favorite of the Homeric epics but reading them so close together I think I prefer The Iliad because of the way the gods involve themselves in comparison to the ways they do in The Odyssey. Also, (The Odyssey) ||I don't really like Odysseus in this book. He seems like an entitled asshole with a slingshot and a runny nose. "Lord of Lies" "cunning" etc. I mean... I guess... he doesn't seem all that brilliant in this book, and the tales he spins are literally: I'm some third brother from this noble family that had a shipwreck and now I need help. Thanks for all the gold, I'll be on my way." K. Thanks dude and don't come back lol.|| That all being said, I did enjoy the main message: ||open and wide hospitality is necessary for a working society. I think the book also leans into the cost of war and asks whether it's worth it. Families grow up without fathers, heroes to society die, families grieve, and for what? Did Odysseus come back richer than he was before he left? He seems to have lost property and wealth. It's only because of his last hospitality that he even has anything to recoup what was pillaged at home. He could have grown further had he not left. His reputation isn't even changed much. I suppose by great kings elsewhere but like... who's getting back on a boat to travel there to spend a weekend for some laughs and wine?|| I do want to go back and study the various trips Odysseus makes in a more bullet point/less convoluted method to compare the trip to the Enneagram. I've heard that the virtues line up with the events in this book (and the passions line up with Dante's work).
_ _

🍷 Were there any quotes (or passages) that stood out to you? Why?

Yes!

(4.96-97) ||I wish I had stayed here, with just a third / of all the treasure I have now acquired||

^^ This is part of the question I think Homer asks: ||The Iliad is about the war and The Odyssey asks whether the glory is worth it. Menelaus answers above that he does not think the war effort was worth it, and he's the one married to Helen of Sparta... I mean Helen of Troy... I mean Helen of Sparta II. Was it all for naught? 👀 ||

(5.431-434) ||As when an octopus, dragged from its den, / has many pebbles sticking to its suckers, / so his strong hands were skinned against the rocks.||

^^ I love this imagery! It's just fun xD.

(11.198-203) ||(Odysseus’s mother) The goddess did not shoot me in my home, / aiming with gentle arrows. Nor did sickness / suck all the strength out from my limbs, with long / and cruel wasting. No, it was missing you, / Odysseus, my sunshine; your sharp mind, / and your kind heart. That took sweet life from me.’||

^^ I think this quote set the tone for the entire book. ||Going off to war hurts those at home as much as those abroad. We need to make sure that all other options are exhausted before hitting the red button.||

(17) ||Shame is not a friend to those in need.||

^^ Heart-breaking but this is the other main point of the story. ||For context, this is when Odysseus poses as a beggar and needs to get food from the suitors. Those with plenty must offer aid to those who cannot help themselves. This does excuse laziness, however, sometimes it's simply not possible to aid oneself. As a society, we need to be able to make it possible to reinvigorate self-worth into every soul. Sometimes all that takes is a chance, an opportunity to prove oneself.||

🧀 Who's your favorite character? Why?

||Eumaeus because he represents everything good in the values of Greece, and he does so with integrity and without knowledge of reward.||

[burnt ingot]

Thank you for the detailed and insightful reponse

[small zinc]

Sure thing! The poem warrants it :))

[scarlet quarry]

BR has been extended!
New duration: <t:1690243200:D>-<t:1693440000:D>

[meager epoch]

Yayyyy!! I started this book btw, but I’m still reading the intro

[storm portal]

Yayyyy!! I started this
book btw, but I’m still
reading the intro

- jpuzzle

[meager epoch]

Lmaoooo thx haikubot

[tight herald]

Yayyy! Which translated version are you reading?

[meager epoch]

Fagles! I believe the intro is written by Bernard Knox? There are some interesting discussions on: was the Odyssey (and the Iliad) ever written down, or just passed on through oral poetry? How the heck does one recite such a long piece of poetry? Etc

[warm canyon]

We’re the books always named? I don’t remember that

But yeah, I just started and I always forget how Greeks like to start their stories in the middle

[tribal cove]

Book 9
|| · The starting point of Odysseus's journey.
· All things start to make sense now, eg: why Poseidon mad at Odysseus so.
· This book should be listed as pg 12 or pg 15. Some scenes are too bloody and violent (line 323~330, 420~441)
· Cyclops is favored by Zeus. ||

[tribal cove]

Book 8
|| · First half, we are reading the prototypes of Olympic Games.
· Second half is part of mythology.
· how can a bard sing a song that might offend the gods on royal banquet? ||

[meager epoch]

The muses hijacked the story

[warm canyon]

Lol they do that sometimes

[meager epoch]

Ya right??? ||like give strangers a meal before asking them who they are. Ah the good old times, when people are trusting and not all stranger danger ||

[meager epoch]

That’s so interesting you mentioned moral standards for the gods!! ||my intro basically said gods don’t care about morals and that one of Homer’s “editors” basically changed the text to make Zeus more “moral”||

[warm canyon]

Book 4 ||

I wished that Aphrodite had not made me go crazy, when she took me from my country and made me leave my daughter and the bed I shared with my fine, handsome, clever husband.
Girl, blink twice if this is a hostage situation ||

[meager epoch]

Book 1
||I see a nice parallel and contrast here with how The Iliad started. Both evoked the Muses, but the Odyssey jumped straight into the middle of the story when Odysseus was help captive with Calypso instead of chronologically at the start like the Iliad. This was brilliantly echoed in the following lines from Telemachus:

Mother has always told me I'm his son, it's true,
but I am not so certain. Who, on his own,
has ever really known who gave him life? 1.249-51 (Greek lines: 1.197-226)
I see the Odyssey as primarily a poem about personal identities and life as a journey, and it is true our life's story rarely starts at the beginning, since who remembers when we were born?
Another contrast with the Iliad's beginning was Athena's role in the plot progression. In the Iliad, she stopped Achilles from killing Agamemnon in a fit of murderous rage; but here, she prodded Telemachus to embark on a journey to find his father, after Ithaca's courts were infested from within with shameless suitors for Penelope.
Lastly, I sense a more human-focused storyline in the Odyssey, as compared to the Iliad. Even Zeus complained:
From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes,
but they themselves, with their own reckless ways,
compound their pains beyond their proper share. 1.38-40 (1.13-43)
It's not everyday that Zeus acknowledges the power of humanity, even if it is self-destructive.
Also, Poseidon was the og hater - he held grudges against the Trojans and now he hated Odysseus too??||

Book 2 ||Penelope is totally gaslit by Eurymachus and Antinous (both menaces) who claimed that she "led them on" with cunning tricks. I'm sorry, but when a woman refuses to engage in your shady courting, you can at least have the dignity of walking away? I'm not triggered at all||

Book 3 ||There were many questions posed in the Odyssey so far, the most frequent of which: "Who are you?" It is as if Homer kept asking us too - as we go through life, do we still know who we are under the many disguises and masks we put on for others?
I love the hospitality the Greeks have shown for strangers thus far - this is sadly lost in modern times. We rarely even invite a neighbor over, and the warmth of humans simply feasting before getting to know each others' names was a thing of the past.
Nestor caught us up to what happened following the fall of Troy - a string of tragedies. Great Ajax committed suicide (?!), Menelaus stood at odds with Agamemnon, and not to mention Agamemnon's own horrifying demise at the hands of his wife and brother. The days of glorious war fighting were over, and the heroes were all scattered ashore, dead or leaden with grief.||

Book 4 ||Fatherless Telemachus continued on his journey, dropping in on Menelaus and Helen. It is hard to imagine how Menelaus would take back Helen at this point, but it seems they were enjoying a courteous marriage. Here, Athena wore more disguises: not just as Telemachus' guide Mentor, but also as a ghost of Penelope's sister. It is interesting how Athena hid in human forms, concealing her identity like so. Book 4 marks the end of Telemachus' journey for now (?).
On a side note, it is pretty funny when this book's notes explained how Menelaus recognizing the feet of Telemachus was totally normal cough cough.||

[burnt ingot]

da feet

[small zinc]

I do think it’s important to note that ||Helen is closely descended from Zeus. It’s not like she’s a common woman. It’d be like denying Hercules but where his gift was strength, hers is beauty.||

[meager epoch]

Ahh good point

[meager epoch]

yes it seems like Homer is very bad at geography 🤣

[meager epoch]

re: your comments on "here’s some story of a fisherman who becomes an immortal and takes advantage of his “creator” goddess" I think it's Achilles parents

[small zinc]

Oh is it? I thought the dude was made a god though

[meager epoch]

hmm iirc Achilles' dad was instructed by the Gods to force Thetis into a union and Thetis been hating him since

[small zinc]

Hey could be. I’m not a Greek Mythos enthusiast. I prefer the Celts, Norse, and Kemetic xD

I think my knowledge on this is literally Stephen Fry’s Mythos on audiobook while doing other activities sooo

[meager epoch]

i also have only elementary knowledge in this field ... sooo
but ya greek mythology is very cool

[meager epoch]

Book 5 ||We are back to the main plot line with Odysseus, who was finally freed from Calypso. Tempted with immortality and agelessness, Odysseus nevertheless chose mortality and reunion with his family. The unlucky guy, however, had a few more trials ahead of him.||

Book 6 ||Nausicaa is probably the most beautiful name I’ve encounted in Homer’s poetry. I see a general theme of cleaning (and thus purifying?): women bathing men, then rubbing them with oil. There is a ritualistic feeling to it, as if cleansing a body could cleanse a mind.||

Book 7 ||The bounties of Alcinous reminded one of the riches in times of peace, in clear contrast to the wartimes depicted in the Iliad.||

Book 8 ||The story of Aphrodite cheating on her husband Hephaestus with Ares took up quite a chunk of this book - I wonder if it was a veiled warning from Homer to Penelope, or just a general warning tale on marriage infidelity.
I like the lyrical names given to local lads with a unifying theme of ocean: Broadsea, Seagirt, Rowhard. The importance of names was stressed again:

Surely no man in the world is nameless, all told.
Born high, born low, as soon as he sees the light
his parents always name him, once he’s born. 8.620-22 (543-77)
This somehow reminds me of Ursula Le Guin’s A Wizard of Earthsea, where names carry extreme significance, since they bear one’s true identity.||

Book 9 ||Finally! We get to hear about the start of Odysseus’ journey from Troy. I don’t remember why Zeus blew Odysseus’ crew off course… but the other tales seemed familiar enough: Lotus eaters that remind one of drug users, murderous and blinded Cyclops, and Odysseus’ cunning tricks hiding among the sheep flock and disguising his name as “Nobody.” In fact, proud Odysseus could not stand being a Nobody - dude had to yell at the top of his lung so the world knew he was Odysseus. Man, I ain’t even mad that Poseidon was set against Odysseus - he needed to take it down a few notches.
There are repeated mentions of: rowing, Dawn rising, and greetings from hosts. I wonder if these are intentional narrative choices made by Homer to highlight the passing of time and repetitiveness of their sea journey.||

Book 10 ||Having read Madeline Miller’s Circe, I was super psyched for this book. Instead of hearing from the point of view of Circe, I now get to hear from Odysseus, who turned out to be quite suicidal, especially after his crew broke open the bag of winds from Aeolus and almost all got eaten by the Laestrygonian cannibals. Enter: witch Circe, who was depicted as treacherous but nevertheless let Odysseus leave with precious advice of her own - go visit the Underworld. As expected, Odysseus’ crew were not too psyched, but Odysseus comforted them with “what good can come of grief?” This sounded quite contrarian, since Odysseus himself displayed lots of grief.
I keep forgetting that Odysseus was super strong. Dude killed a stag on his own, made rope from scratch, then hoisted the stag back to his ships. Ok flex. ||

[scarlet quarry]

jpuzzle is zoooooming through this book

[tribal cove]

I like your insights in names and the meaning of Aphrodite's story.
|| Don't remember there are signs that Penelope will be unfaithful to Odysseus, so I guess it's just a general warning tale. ||

[meager epoch]

nahh i just read throughout the day and write my thoughts at the end lolol

[burnt ingot]

I have tried my best but this book is, unfortunately, too complicated for me 😔
I did understand it but I couldn’t.. read read it.. like, I found myself too focused on understanding the meaning to actually experience the book
Ill definitely be giving it another shot but not now for sure 🏳️

[warm canyon]

Book 9 ||Finally getting a full account of Doysseus’s journey. Also why is he like this? Referring to the way he kind of hid his identity from Alcinous and the way he just had to investigate the Cyclops||

[burnt ingot]

It's alright! See you next time! You did a great job

[warm canyon]

If you can ever get your hands on the Emily Watson translation, give it a try. I have not once had an issue with understanding meaning, and I know that was one of her big aims was making the text readable for people. Idk if anyone else agrees, just a thought

[burnt ingot]

Thank you 🥹

[burnt ingot]

I’ll see if I can find it here!
I’m thinking about climbing the reading ladder for it to get easier to read! But thank you for the suggestion

[warm canyon]

Yeah come back to it someday, hopefully the time will be right then. I have to do that sometimes

[tribal cove]

Trying to answer the second question. Spoiler alert. || Maybe they need provisions? Or it's just his standard procedure: to investigate every island he visit. Or we need him to be like that otherwise Odysseus/Homer got no stories to tell.
And, he do the same thing at Book 10 when they go ashore to Circe's island. But he send a team to scout instead. (line 110) ||

[warm canyon]

Idk I feel like Odysseus is just a big asshole

[small zinc]

Did you finish?

Oh no, not yet probably. Okay. Sorry ignore me.

[warm canyon]

No worries! It’s a full-book applicable statement

[small zinc]

(Full poem spoilers) ||While I largely agree that Odysseus is an asshole—nice way to start my literary commentary today—I do think part of the odyssey is Odysseus’s transformation of self. Throughout the story, we get the idea that Odysseus was a good person and king from his own people, while the Odysseus we know traveling back home is an asshole. Are we to assume that these are the same unchanged person? I don’t think so. I think we are experiencing Odysseus post-war and it’s affected him. Telemachus could be seen as an untouched by war version of Odysseus, however, he’d also lacked fathering (still probably had some male leadership by older nobles like Mentor ( 👀)). I do believe being separated from women for two decades, killing in mass, bearing the pressure of intellectually overcoming the Trojans, etc. would wear on a person’s niceties. A lot of The Odyssey, the poem, for me is questioning whether going to war is worth it. Odysseus is a byproduct of the Greek cause, and I do think that his odyssey begins to work as a radical remedy for assholeitis. Getting home, loving his wife, and getting time to know and value his son will be a crucial salve in his rehabilitation.||

[warm canyon]

Book 9 ||Idk if I noted this before, but we’ve reached our obligatory record scratch “I bet you’re wondering how I ended up in this position” retelling of all of the events of The Odyssey so far. Greeks are weird lol||

[warm canyon]

I agree with all of this, I don’t disagree. ||But like specifically this thing where he just can’t seem to let go and has to boast and be inquisitive where it’s not needed against the advice of the people he claims to love, and then his actions lead directly to their deaths (both immediately with the men who get eaten by the cyclops, and later on when all of his men die because Poseidon decides to punish him because he couldn’t help boasting and giving his name as they sail away). Like bro why are you like this?

I like the post-war interpretation, like was it worth it? But I think that’s a pretty modern lens. I def don’t think that was the intent at the time||

[warm canyon]

Book 10 ||Ok I forgot about the bag of winds, the men def fucked that one up. There’s a lack of trust that seems to come up at just the wrong time. Maybe Homer would say that the gods let some sudden madness overcome them. How easy it must be as a writer to blame all your inconsistencies of character on some god.

The book Circe really embellished a lot, there’s really not a lot here. Not to mention, how much of this can we take at face value? Knowing that Odysseus is a self-professed trickster and a liar?||

[meager epoch]

Maybe back then Greek heroes ||cannot bear to not let their names be known. It sure feels like hubris these days||

[tribal cove]

Book 10
|| · King Aeolus called Odysseus 'most cursed man alive.' But from readers' pov, I think it's because the greed and jealous from his crew, leading them back to Aeolian island.
· is there any friendly Giants?
· Reading about the ritual Circe made Odysseus do gives a mysterious feeling. ❤️ ||

[warm canyon]

Spoilers?

[small zinc]

Might have gotten messed up with new discord bullet feature. Happens sometimes on mobile. Still though, they are spoilers more or less.

[warm canyon]

Ohhh

[tribal cove]

Err, you mean my post? yeah, full of spoilers

[warm canyon]

Yes can you use spoiler bars? || on either side of the post

[warm canyon]

I know it’s a 3000 year old book, but we use spoiler bars for everything, so people can experience books fresh. Thank you!

[tribal cove]

Sorry, from my side, the bars seems working.

[warm canyon]

They aren’t working on my side. Maybe remove the bullets? Idk if that’s causing the issue

Didn’t know discord had a bullets feature

[burnt ingot]

you can add - or * at the beginning of a sentence to bullet it i think

[warm canyon]

It looks like a recurring issue

[burnt ingot]

that's weird, is it not hiding the content for you

[warm canyon]

No, there’s no bar, like in the picture. Are y’all on mobile?

[burnt ingot]

im on pc and it has bars for me

[warm canyon]

Well this in an issue. I’m sure it’s Duscord’s fault, but that’s really weird

[small zinc]

I do lists like:
.
.
.
Instead of

Because of that rn. Numbers are weird too

It was messing up my Iliad posts

[tribal cove]

I'll follow Klaus's method, ty Klaus

[warm canyon]

Thank you for being flexible!

Thank you for being flexible!

[meager epoch]

Ya ||king aelous sounds super superstitious, “you shall not mess up with my juju, stay away!” Poor odysseus||

[tight herald]

Omg just heard that Emily Wilson (read her version of The Odyssey) is coming out with a translated version of The Iliad next month

[small zinc]

Yup yup! I love the cover too. I kinda wish she did it the other way around because I had wanted to read her The Iliad when we did that. I guess I'll just have to read The Iliad again.

[tribal cove]

Sorry guys and ladies, let me go stray from topic for a while...

[tribal cove]

what do you think of the movie: Troy? Does it stay true to original?

[small zinc]

In a word? No. But it’s also not exactly just Homer either. It pulls from The Odyssey and Virgil’s The Aeneid; sadly, it also omits (characters) ||the gods for the most part. Some of my favorite scenes in The Iliad are the scenes playing out the divine interventions in the matters of mortals.|| I do think it gives a good idea of the way the two sides fought according to the book—although again, the scenes don’t necessarily match up with the books. Like in the book 3 people are depicted and combined as one movie person. Personally, I would wrestle with the texts first to give yourself the chance to have a mental image all your own and then watch the film. That way you’ll notice the inconsistencies. I do think the casting is pretty good in general.

[tribal cove]

I see. Thank you so much for the guidelines 🙏🙏

[small zinc]

Hey sure thing. Perhaps other have differing opinions, but I almost always recommend reading the work before the movie adaptation anyways.

[meager epoch]

I agree with what Klaus said! I don’t think it’s a great adaptation of the book, but it’s a pretty fun movie to watch regardless. I watched it a long time ago and remember liking all the action stuff. I’d say rather than faithful adaptation, it’s more like inspired by these epic poems (especially the characters)?

[warm canyon]

That movie could have been so good, but the writing was truly terrible

[meager epoch]

Book 11 ||Apparently this is the OG depiction of hell, from which Dante drew his inspirations to write his Divine Comedy (even though Dante never read Homer directly). Odysseus encountered a string of characters: Teiresias (who foretold his futures up to his death), his mother (dead due to grief for Odysseus' absence), a long list of wives (not sure what that is about), Greek heroes (Agamemnon, Achilles, Ajax), and the punished souls (Tityus, Tantalus, Sisyphus, Heracles - all doomed to repetitive, endless, fruitless labors).||

Book 12 ||In terms of Odysseus' journey, this may be my favorite part - all the adventures with the Sirens, Scylla, Charybdis, and Helios' cattle. Excitement aside, I love how this part of the journey represented resisting temptations, enduring hardship, and making tough decisions as a leader. Also Homer's depiction of the whirlpools as Charybdis gulping then spewing out water was so vivid.||

Book 13 ||Poseidon - king, you stay mad. A heartbreaking moment for Odysseus, when he landed on native land at last, only for him not to recognize it:

Man of misery, whose land hand I lit on now?
What are they here - violent, savage, lawless? 13.227-8 (195-225)||

Book 14 ||Eumaeus, the loyal swineherd, was addressed here in the second person ("you"), like Patroclus in The Iliad. I wonder if Homer valued loyalty highly, and thus depicted these characters in such an intimate voice. I'm not sure why Odysseus made up such a long-winded story about his past to Eumaeus - it seemed that he could've shot himself in the foot very easily.||

Book 15 ||Telemachus was all set to return home, and we learned of the swineherd's backstory. I got kinda bored in this book tbh.||

Book 16 ||Telemachus and Odysseus reunited at last! Odysseus showed tremendous self-restraint not to reveal himself in front of Eumaeus when Telemachus first showed up. Given that we know how much Odysseus wanted his name to be known, I know it must've taken every muscle in his body and every thought in his mind not to betray his identity.||

[small zinc]

Hmmm. I like this reasoning for (Book 14) ||the use of “you”/second person: Homer’s connection to extremely loyal persons.||

[warm canyon]

Book 14 ||Odysseus, the original Undercover Boss||

[meager epoch]

LMAOOo for real

[warm canyon]

Book 17 ||it’s just a dog, I’m not gonna cry, I’m not gonna cry, I’m not gonna cry.
Argos, exists
||

[burnt ingot]

Just a warm reminder that this BR will end **in 5 days **as on August 31th. Feel free to give a holler if you need help. Also, if you have started, we'd love to hear your thoughts on the book, please participate in the discussion to earn the BR points!

Happy reading!!

Reading status (correct me if something's wrong)
haven't started: @chilly carbon @limber lion @fresh moat @marsh egret @late wasp @minor dome @north moss @ruby zenith @cosmic stratus @south nova @open kayak
reading: @tribal cove @warm canyon @meager epoch
(You are making great progress. Keep it up! )
finished: @small zinc @burnt ingot @tight herald
(Heyy you are awesome!🎉 )

[ornate tangle]

I noticed this too!!

new to the discord but i'm currently reading the odyssey

[small zinc]

Welcome! That’s jpuzzle’s original idea as I’m just a lowly replier, but I do love seeing this in the text.

[tribal cove]

Some questions to answer as you're reading (awesome job!):
🐑 Did your opinion of this book change as you read it? How?

Yes, I grow more and more fond of it. I read Geek Mythology (abridged) when I was a child. now reading Odyssey in which I learned more gods, goddess and nymphs' dids. There's so much to explore and hence much fun to me.

🍷 Were there any quotes (or passages) that stood out to you? Why?
hmmm...

🧀 Who's your favourite character? Why?
My favorite character is Odysseus. Because the way he outwit the || Cyclops.
Neighbors: Who is bothering you?
Cyclops: nobody. ||
And because of the words he answered || Nausicaa's father. If he tells the truth, which is princess told Odysseus not to walk with her but to wait in the grove and hug the queen's knee and all that, the king might get angry to the princess and Odyseuss both. For his own daughter tried to deceive him and her mother. I think Odysseus gives a not only cunning but also clever answer there. || So for now, he is my favorite character.

[tribal cove]

I will just read on if I can't finish the eholr book in time.
But I do have a question: will I still get points if I DNF the book but have posted some abstracts?
It's fine if the answer is no. Reading and seeing ppl's opinions about the book are already the biggest rewards to me to say. But I'm curious.

[burnt ingot]

idrk but I'll ask

[tribal cove]

Okay, tks!

[tight herald]

Forgot to answer these questions after finishing

🐑 Early on I was a bit intimidated by the book only because it was such an old classic, but I found the translations very clear and fun as I read it. || I must admit, my opinions of the suitors were occasionally swayed from hatred to sympathy only from hearing about Penelope weaving the shroud for years to deceive them and believing that the suitors were really in it for love but you know ☠️ ||

🍷 || I loved the passage (Book 11) when Odysseus travels to Hades to speak with Teiresias. The imagery was beautiful to me and yet sorrowful. I'm glad he took time to speak with not only the prophet, but also his loved ones and friends who had died. || Most of the quotes I highlighted are kinda sad but I wanted to share the two below that I really like.

(Book 15) || After many years of agony and absence from one's home, a person can begin enjoying grief. ||

(Book 19) || Human beings have short lives. If we are cruel, everyone will curse us during our life, and mock us when we die. The names of those who act with nobleness are brought by travellers across the world, and many people speak about their goodness. ||

[tight herald]

🧀 || Polyphemus. Hear me out! I'm team Polyphemus bro did nothing wrong in my eyes, he was just minding his business on his own island, tending to his sheep when Odysseus and his men had to boat in and rudely expect gifts . You enter the Cyclopes land, you expect to get eaten . You do not steal a man's sheep nor call him an idiot ||

|| Now aside from Polyphemus, my other favourite character would be Eumaeus. To me I see him as all things good. His loyalty, trust, kindheartedness to both Odysseus and the beggar. Although Zeus is said to love the needy, which is a prominent topic in The Odyssey, Eumaeus shows no judgement unlike others. He is in a lower class, most often obeying those above him, but he does not take advantage when the opportunity arises to look down upon Odysseus the beggar. He shows care for not only Odysseus, but also his family, even after decades without his master, which shows just the kind of virtous character he is ||

[warm canyon]

Ok so I thought of a discussion question, if @burnt ingot doesn’t mind. If you were in a Homeric epic, what do you think would be your epithet?

[small zinc]

||Don’t leave home.||

I kid, I kid.

[warm canyon]

That’s not an epithet lol

Unless I have the wrong word

That’s like “white-armed Athena” or “cunning Odysseus” right?

[meager epoch]

foodie jpuzzle

Soft-footed jpuzzle, cuz I walk quiet

[warm canyon]

Kit of the snappy retort
Fast-typing Kit of the thundering keys
I think those would be mine. Everyone always comments on how loud I type

[tight herald]

Pea the Hungry

[warm canyon]

Pea, the long-hungering
Pea of the voracious appetite

[burnt ingot]

wooo that's a great question

[burnt ingot]

sorrowly the answer is no

[tribal cove]

I see. Ty for asking for me.

[small zinc]

Oh I read that as epigraph

[warm canyon]

Ohhh gotcha

[small zinc]

Yeah my bad. What’s your epithet?

[warm canyon]

I like these

[warm canyon]

Book 22:

https://tenor.com/view/escalated-quickly-anchorman-drinking-gif-5112090

[warm canyon]

Me at Odysseus:

https://tenor.com/view/why-you-always-lying-gif-25887371

I finished. I will add final thoughts soon

[burnt ingot]

congrats!!🎉 I love the gifs lol.

[warm canyon]

My favorite passage might be this on in Emily Wilson’s translator’s note:
|| > There is a stranger outside your house. He is old, ragged, and dirty. He is tired. He has been wandering, homeless, for a long time, perhaps many years. Invite him inside. You do not know his name. He may be a thief. He may be a murderer. He may be a god. He may remind you of your husband, your father, or yourself. Do not ask questions. Wait. Let him sit in a comfortable chair and warm himself beside your fire. Bring him some food, the best you have, and a cup of wine. Let him eat and drink until he is satisfied. Be patient. When he is finished, he will tell you his story. Listen carefully. It may not be as you expect||

Just really sums up the vibe of the whole book for me

[small zinc]

Yeah I loved her translator’s note. Did you read the fairly long intro? Tbh, I didn’t but I think I will one day. I’m pretty bad at reading intro’s in general—although I love reading an afterward.

[warm canyon]

I did not lmao

[burnt ingot]

wow I love it's told in 2nd person pov

[meager epoch]

hihi sorry i havent updated in a while - will send in some thoughts today!

[meager epoch]

Also wanted to share some really cool findings in my book's endnotes:

• the origin of the word "destroy": Penelope conjured the word (in Greek) kakoilion, which combines evil (kakos) with Troy (Ilion) because she hates Troy, thus desTroy (I thought this was so cool!)
• the name "Odysseus": may be associated with the Greek word odussomai, which is curiously in the "middle voice" which is inbetween active and passive voices. Thus, Odysseus represents "not only an agent of rage or hatred but its target too... Odysseus is agent and victim both, inflicting and bearing pain yet somehow born himself in the process." I LOVE this description, and the cyclic nature of suffering (e.g. "what goes around, comes around") and how Odysseus found himself whilst suffering.

[obtuse token]

Troy sucks... this isn't bad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1jzQW7Volw

[warm canyon]

They made me watch it in school. It’s so bad, but Isabella Rossellini was good as Athena

[small zinc]

Hard to fuck up athena. She slays no matter her role in a story. Best god/goddess? I think so.

[tribal cove]

Is it that bad I thought the movie is okay if we look at it as an independent piece of work...and, if we don't compare it with the original Epic poem and judge how much it loses the spirit.
Thanks for the rec , will check it out.

[warm canyon]

They’re bad for different reasons.The Odyssey was a low-budget made-for-tv miniseries and I hated the guy who played Odysseus, I thought his acting was terrible. But iirc correctly it was faithful to the source. Troy was just terrible writing

[tribal cove]

😂 I was re-watching it last weekend. They try to bring out every characters I recognized: Ajax, Agamemnon, Menelaus, Priam..etc.
But on Troy's side, I guess they changed a lot of things to ensure the plot ongoing as they planned, to make sure Achilles stand out and || had a romance. || I think Im going to take it as a typical Hollywood movie.

[warm canyon]

The ||romance, they completely changed Agamemnon and Menelaus’s characterization and made them these flat evil villains. Paris weepy-eyed shit. Like the casting was so spot on, I just can’t believe they wrote them so poorly. Like even down to Julie Christie as Thetis, Achilles’s mother, this is amazing casting of a tiny side character. She’s clearly not a goddess in that movie cause they killed all the gods lol, but there was something so interesting and radiant about her. Even though she was only in the movie for 5 minutes, it had so much impact. I mean, Sean Bean as Odysseus, are you kidding me? But the decision to get rid of all the magic was really telling, and the Myrmidon speech is so cringe “immortality, take it, it’s yours.” If i rowed all the way to Troy to fight and got that as my pep speech, I would swim the fuck home||

I have a lot of feelings lol

[open kayak]

The fact that this is a poem is absolutely bonkers to me. It's definitely an epic and I'm just wondering how a performance of it would've occurred in the past.

Book 1: ||It might take me a while for me to get all these characters straight in my head. I know gods/goddesses falling for humans is a pretty common theme in other Greek works but it's still an interesting concept to me because why? Not sure I'm a fan of the suitors on both sides who are trying to split up a marriage.||

[warm canyon]

Did you finish?

[open kayak]

Book 2: ||It's sad that Odysseus' son presumes that he's dead because it's been about a decade since he's last seen him but you can completely understand why because it's not like they can easily communicate and I imagine news of any kind is hard to send or hear about. It seems like Telemachus has a lot on his shoulders at such a young age.||

[open kayak]

I'm going through it now because I thought there were a couple of days left

[warm canyon]

Ohh you’re posting all at once. Got it

[open kayak]

I'm on book 4 right now so posting my thoughts so far but I'm aiming to just get through it in one sitting

||Also lowkey 🙄 at men blaming a woman for their actions.||

Book 3: ||I actually find it interesting how involved Athena is getting with Telemachus and how she's trying to guide/help him. I just think the god/human dynamics are something I really vibe with and could be rich for storytelling. I'm glad she's given him hope for reuniting with his dad although I imagine it's going to take a while before he manages to do that.||

[meager epoch]

ya smh

[open kayak]

Book 4: ||Um, I'm not surprised that a king has likely SA'd someone and gotten her pregnant but the way it's just casually dropped at the start of this is a bit jarring. It might not have been 'a big deal' when this was written and I don't know historically how people felt about that but it's not great. ||
||It sounds like Odysseus has been very resourceful in the past and hopefully Telemachus will have some of that as well if he's going to try and get rid of his mum's suitors||

Book 5: ||Okay, I have a lot of conflicting feelings about this. Calypso is right to call out the double standards with the male gods being able to sleep with whoever they want but it's not okay for the female gods to do so, but she seems completely unaware or unwilling to be aware of the power dynamics that are at play with her and Odysseus and the fact that she uses being a goddess to get what she wants from Odysseus which is.....icky and coercive. I definitely think there are double standards with men cheating whilst the women seem to stay faithful but at the minute I do think you can read it as Odysseus not being 100% on board with what's happening with Calypso.|| I just don't really know what to think of Calypso and she's definitely done things that I don't agree with out of 'love'.

||Book 5 seems to early for Odysseus to go home so I'm guessing something goes wrong or he gets derailed somewhere to drag out the journey. 18 days sailing is a really long time though and the fact that he could've died without intervention.||

Book 6: ||Again, the intervention of gods and they're doing something icky. Athena having Nausicaa and Odysseus meet when they're both naked?? and making Nausicaa attracted to Odysseus so she'll help him?? surely there could be another way for Athena to keep Odysseus safe and get him help. It just seems so weird.||

It's so hard for me to read this without using a present day mindset tbh

Book 7: ||So, Athena is just going to pop up everywhere to make sure that Odysseus is doing what she wants him to do? Okay. I'm surprised he keeps getting away with not revealing his identity but part of me wonders if again that because of Athena intervening and making him lucky? I'm not sure. ||

||the fact that this guy has just met Odysseus and is immediately like 'marry my daughter!'||

[meager epoch]

ah good ole days

[meager epoch]

Book 17 ||I guess one of the biggest lessons of The Odyssey is to not judge one by appearances. Beggars are at complete mercy of others, so it's a true reflection and test of one's virtues.
I was pretty amused by Fagles' translation of Telemachus' sneeze as "lusty". Apparently the Greeks believed that sneezes were divine interventions, because we cannot control nor conjure sneezes of our own!||

Book 18 ||This is all together a pretty hilarious episode for me: a cage fight between Odysseus and another beggar (with bystanders shouting things like "check out how swole Odysseus is!"), Penelope literally taking a beauty sleep (during which Athena did some cosmetic works on her), and the menace suitor Eurymachus taunting Odysseus by saying he had a shiny bald head. The notion of Odysseus being the "beggar-king" seems two-sided: he won the fight so he became the king of beggars, but he was also a king disguised as a beggar.||

oh also forgot to add a favorite quote from book 18:

Our lives, our mood and mind as we pass across the earth,
turn as the days turn... 18.156-7 (Greek lines: 123-54)

[warm canyon]

So pass the days of our lives lol. I love it

https://tenor.com/view/days-dool-days-of-our-lives-nbcdays-gif-24668477

It’s an old soap opera, if you didn’t know the reference

It’s not really related, just made me think of it

[meager epoch]

oh ya one of the reality tv shows im watching (selling sunset) has an actress from this show lmaooo

Book 19 ||It's interesting that Odysseus chose to deceive Penelope (even going to the length of reciting his fake history) but not Telemachus. Is this a distrust of women, or stronger trust placed in blood ties? The scene in which the old nurse recognized Odysseus' old leg scar was very touching.||

Book 20 ||This seems like a filler episode. More of the suitors' mockery and Odysseus' prayers to Zeus for a divine sign.||

[open kayak]

Books 9-12: ||Okay, hello flashbacks. It does sound like he's been through so much to get to where he is now. It almost feels like he goes through too much but I feel that's just because of how the gods have been intervening in his journey. Odysseus cheating on his wife with a goddess does not surprise me in the slightest and neither does Circe turning his men into pigs. I do find it hilarious how basically every woman Odysseus comes across seems to want him. Also Elpenor just casually falling from a roof and dying. I think some of the events in this book are so abrupt that I read them and I'm just ||

[meager epoch]

ohhh i think ||kids mean little goats||

[meager epoch]

Ya one thing I'm having a hard time understanding is why ||no one is standing up to these brazen suitors... like all the villagers just brought them goats and pigs to eat but no one rebelled... Telemachus might be the only one to tell them off from time to time and Penelope just hides||

[open kayak]

I know this is a book about Odysseus but it seems like ||ages since we last saw his family||

Book 14: Odysseus in his John Cena era

[meager epoch]

yooo Odysseus have major main character energy

[open kayak]

my exact thoughts!! ||Or Homer is projecting ||

Book 16: Hello chapter title! I was waiting for that to happen.

[small zinc]

Idk how y’all are able to read this whole thing in a day.

[obtuse token]

Ugh... Odysseus is such a jerk.

[open kayak]

||I'm confused as to how Telemachus knows that's Odysseus if he hasn't seen him since he was really young.||

Book 19: ||Odysseus really going undercover in front of his own wife. Uh, what?||

[small zinc]

I always imagined that there were ||urns/art of him at home.||

[open kayak]

That would make sense actually

[small zinc]

This confused me too. The only reason I could see this being a thing was because ||maybe there were house girls around he didn’t know which ones were trustworthy yet. Possibly also that she would react in a way that would spoil the surprise to the suitors.||

[open kayak]

Book 20: ||I might not be Odysseus' biggest fan but please get rid of the suitors as they're entitled/creepy/even worse||

Book 22: I can just imagine a modern day Odysseus who's like ||a social media influencer and always has at least one woman on his arm|| I'm tired so that might not make sense but it seems like he's always trying to prove himself.

Finished. I can understand how it's stood the test of time as the themes of overcoming hardship, family and love are all pretty universal. I'm not sure if I actually liked it so I'm going to sit with it a while and update tomorrow.

[warm canyon]

What translation did you read?

[meager epoch]

Lolol abi is the MVP here!! I’m still working through the text

[storm portal]

Lolol abi is
the MVP here!! I’m still
working through the text

- jpuzzle

[meager epoch]

Book 21 ||Eurymachus of course patted himself on the back when he couldn't string the bow and consoled himself: "Hey plenty of fish in the sea!"||

Book 22 ||Throwback to The Iliad much? Maybe Homer missed writing about battle scenes||

Book 23 ||Some beautiful imageries in this section. The rooted bed made from an olive tree stump reflected the steadfastness of home and the marriage between Odysseus and Penelope. The prophecy of Odysseus seeking out strangers who have never been to the ocean, where they won't recognize an oar, signaling the end of Odysseus' life - this felt hauntingly beautiful to me. I'm still struggling to figure out why I love this scene, but maybe it's the fact that when nobody recognizes Odysseus and his ways, it will be time for him to leave this world.||

Book 24 ||Honestly, I'm not a fan of this last section. Most of it was spent on recapping Odysseus' revenge by Amphimedon's ghost and the suitors' families vowing revenge and then scampering off. I was hoping for more scenes between Laertes and Odysseus but alas Homer kinda gave up at the end, like the writers for Game of Thrones TV show.||

[meager epoch]

OVERALL ||I didn't find the language in The Odyssey as vivid and beautiful as The Iliad, but nevertheless the central themes still ring true and remain intriguing. First and foremost, the exploration of self identity through trials of suffering. Reading about Odysseus getting derailed from his journey home time and time again due to either self-inflicted reasons (Odysseus sure had an ego problem) or God's plans (literally) actually inspired me to be more courageous, and face challenges head on. Life has its ups and downs, just like the sun rises and falls each day. The Odyssey also provided us with an unconventional hero - Odysseus was physically strong and a royal born, but he was best known for deception. Many times, Odysseus made up lies to test those around him, including his loved ones (particularly Penelope), hoping to reveal their true colors. This goes against the grain of traditional values, "Honesty is the best policy." I'm still trying to figure out what Homer's intentions may be - perhaps to show that the end justifies the means? Finally, The Odyssey is rife with welcome and farewell feasts, gift giving, and human interactions. Even when the divine such as Athena or Poseidon intervened, less was focused on the drama between gods and goddesses, and more was focused on the reactions and consequences among humans.||

[meager epoch]

🐑 Yes!! ||I thought the book only covers Odysseus' journey home, but the majority of the books actually was on his revenge on the suitors with a lot of filler episodes||
🍷 My absolute favorite was:

there was a man, or was he all a dream (book 15, 19, 24)
||...repeated by Telemachus, Penelope, Laertes in turns as the book progresses. Odysseus been away for so long that his son, wife, and father all began to forget him - this brought out Odysseus' pain of not reaching home so much clearer to me.||
🧀 ||I like the swineherd and the old nurse the best. Both were loyal and good-natured, and very sensible.||

i just read a goodreads review and i really like what this person said about the iliad and the odyssey:
||Contrasting the qualities of a hero found in the two Homeric epics, Finkelberg concludes that the first epic shows how to die and the second shows how to live (that is, in terms of ancient Greek honor).||

somewhat related: one of my biggest motivation to read this book was because I've been reading James Joyce's Ulysses on and off (more like... off these days) and each chapter in Ulysses is labeled with a character or a location's name from the Odyssey. I thought I'd share the chapters' titles/themes here in case anyone else might be interested in reading Ulysses. Ulysses is composed of 18 sections, each covering 1 hour in 1 day and titled (unofficially) with Odyssey-themed names as the following:
Telemachus, Nestor, Proteus, Calypso, the lotus eaters, Hades, Aeolus, Lestrygonians, Scylla/Charybdis, the Wandering rocks, Sirens, Cyclops, Nausicaa, Oxen of the Sun, Circe, Eumaeus, Ithaca, Penelope.
Curiously, at its core, Ulysses is also about a lost son (like Telemachus) and a love triangle.

[tribal cove]

Tho the br is going to end in one day, I will keep reading.
Book 11
|| · To hold a proper Greek funeral, you must bury the body/ash and weep for the dead.
· I wonder why Hades's name never appear in this chapter? It's dread Persephone or Queen Persephone most of the time.
· Compared with Odysseus, women who encounter Gods haven't been offered immortal life. They are expected to rear God's children alone. What a burden! ||

[tribal cove]

Book12
|| · Scylla's look is terrifying
· If only his crew also listened Tiresias's words, they might pay respect to sun god's belongings and return safely.
·All the winds are against Odysseus. To sum it up "the unluckiest man alive" (book11, line247) ||

[open kayak]

🐑 Not really unfortunately. Classics aren't really my thing but this was one of the more enjoyable ones I've read this month. I did like how family was a big part of it though.

🍷 "There is a time for long tales, but there is also a time for sleep" - Odysseus (Book XI, line 379).
As someone who loves reading and sleeping this really spoke to me
🧀 I liked Telemachus ||as he was just trying to do his best for his parents.||

So I went into this with low expectations because I don't really vibe with classics and it was better than I expected. It was a little bit wordy at times but that's to be expected and it didn't detract from the main themes of the book and how universal they are. ||It seemed a little bit convenient that most of the main characters were largely influenced by gods, whether that was to help or hinder them, and it shows how important they are to the story as well. Would it be as epic without them? Probably not. i'm not sure if i'm the biggest fan of the human/god interactions as the humans ended up seeming like pawns or were sometimes taken advantage of which wasn't great to read. I think more could have been done there to get the appeal of these relationships but I think that would be a different story entirely.|| To say when this is written though and the scale of the story, it's really good. I'd be tempted to read more works by Homer. I rated this 3.25/5 overall.

[burnt ingot]

LAsT DaY oF ThIS br!!

[burnt ingot]

Well done everyone! This br has reached its end. 🎉
Thank you for joining. I hope you had a grand time reading.

For br points, I have: @small zinc @burnt ingot @tight herald @meager epoch @open kayak @warm canyon

Reading status (plz correct me if something's wrong)
haven't started: @chilly carbon @limber lion @fresh moat @marsh egret @late wasp @minor dome @north moss @cosmic stratus @south nova
reading: @tribal cove
finished: @small zinc @burnt ingot @tight herald @meager epoch @open kayak @warm canyon

Also here are some wrap-up questions :
🌲 What’s your favourite word from this book?
🛡️ Now, do you think Odysseus is a hero? Why or why not?
🗡️ How might you end this book if you were to make your own twists?

🌲 What’s your favourite word from this book?
Lovelorn.
🛡️ Now, do you think Odysseus is a hero? Why or why not?
Yepp. According to my interpretation, hero is the one who does justice to things. Odysseus does meet the norm, so I’ll give him the pass.
🗡️ How might you end this book if you were to make your own twists?
I thought that the ending was a bit rushed when I finished the book, but now I cannot think of a better ending.

[burnt ingot]

🐑 Did your opinion of this book change as you read it? How?
Yes. I didn't really resonate with the characters at first, but later I did discover their own suffering.
🍷 Were there any quotes (or passages) that stood out to you? Why?
"Sleep, delicious and profound, the very counterfeit of death." I love how it emphasizes the fact that she is alive.
🧀 Who's your favourite character? Why?
I like Ino. She's so sweet and just popped out of nowhere to help Odysseus.

[south nova]

Will revert soon with my thoughts on the book

[meager epoch]

thanks for hosting seapotato!! now i can say i've read both of homer's classics hehe

🌲 Asphodel - it first showed up in Hades, and i didn't know what it was and looked it up. turns out it's immortal flowers grown in elysian fields - how beautiful!!
🛡️ he's a complicated hero, but so is human nature. i actually liked that he was portrayed as flawed. the aspect that qualifies him as a hero for me was the fact that he persisted despite challenges set by gods and his shipmates, particularly when he already knows his unfortunate fate ahead of time. it's about knowing how things will end up, but still deciding to take control of the process.
🗡️ hmmmm good question. maybe the suitors can rise as a zombie army or penelope face changes to calypso

[small zinc]

🌲 Beggar. (Game of Thrones spoilers) ||The theme of hospitality resonates so strongly throughout the poem that I cannot help but think constantly about the juxtaposition of Odysseus’s position—king vs. beggar. In Game of Thrones, the book, the Targaryen exiled siblings are a beggar king and queen (should they be married to each other). Seeing Odysseus venture home from war and hitting island after island of splendor with near nothing but the clothes on his back heavily hit me with these Westeros to Pentose vibes. The longing is real within Odysseus and it speaks volumes of the people who aid or hurt him along the way.||

(Book 17) ||Shame is not a friend to those in need.||
🛡️ Honestly, I’m more confused on what a hero is after reading this. Perhaps it’s using the gifts given to us. In Odysseus’s case that would the gift of ||cunning and perhaps strength (bow and wrestling)||.
🗡️ ||I would have liked Odysseus to gather the people (especially his wife and son) and begin telling the story of Troy and especially the Trojan Horse.||

[warm canyon]

Oooo anothert interesting parallel to Game of Thrones ||is the prevalence of the guest right, that if a guest stays at your house, you should not harm them and in fact owe them some level of protection. This is why Lady Stark|| big spoilers for A Storm of Swords ||as soon as the Starks arrive at the Freys for the Red Wedding, Catelyn asks for bread and salt. By feeding them, Lord Frey is officially welcoming them as guests and shouldn't be able to harm them or allow them to come to harm in his halls. Which did not go well, lmao. There's also the tale of the Rat Cook, a fable we hear from Bran, about a cook in the Night's Watch who killed the king's son and fed the king his son in a pie. After that the god's cursed the cook to take the form of a white rat who could only survive by eating his own young. The punishment wasn't for killing the son or feeding him to the king, but killing a guest under his roof. I read on the Wiki that that story was actually in turn inspired by similar fable of the Greek brothers Atreus and Thyestes||

[small zinc]

^^ love that!

I don’t remember that last story but I’ve only read the series the once. There’s so much more to get from rereads with these books.

[warm canyon]

There's so much back lore, it's def easy to miss

[burnt ingot]

could you share your thoughts asap plz, if you have finished the book? so I can report the br 👀

[meager epoch]

an essay i came upon on the odyssey FYI:

https://lithub.com/how-the-odyssey-helped-my-father-and-i-to-grow/

[warm canyon]

Thanks for leading seapotato!

[small zinc]

I plan on reading this later (today hopefully!)

[small zinc]

Finished! So the main thing I gleaned from the article was the main point I think: ||The learning of how to take responsibility for one’s mistakes. Telemachus says that it’s his fault that the situation with the suitors escalated beyond a sapling of an idea. Odysseus then doesn’t scold his son, thereby confirming the lesson that owning fault/responsibility is the correct path. Just like Odysseus accepts his own disappearance as part of the fault for the mayhem at home.

Additionally, there are some minor conversations within the article like the doubled-edged sword of lying and wanting to finally be believed. Odysseus unveils himself openly and his wife suspends belief. Are we as readers meant to ponder whether the act of lying is ever right? Does it have its place in society since we know at least one god approves—almost like an any means to an end debate? Secondly, there’s also the topic of judgment by appearances. One should spend time to understand what’s before oneself before placing judgement like the suitors towards a beggar. We see it’s those who offer hospitality to the beggar who gain in this story (although Poseidon sorta messes this up with scaring and isolating a whole island for this very act). However, I’m curious about this because the story told by Odysseus is not always the truth. He spins lies to create illusions where “necessary” and at other times he speaks veracities.||

[meager epoch]

just read this too and i agree! haha Poseidon really be the hater in this book. ||I totally missed the importance of Telemachus admitting his mistake when I read the book. i love how the odyssey portrays this father-son relationship, especially in depicting telemachus' coming of age. I agree that Penelope is just as wily as Odysseus - what a perfect match!||

[small zinc]

It makes me want to read ||Fathers and Sons by Turgenev to get more of that bond. ||

[meager epoch]

do you know if that's inspired by the odyssey?

[small zinc]

Ummm probably not. I just something that I think examines that relationship in depth which I would imagine based on title alone, it would. Maybe it doesn’t xD.

But hey, it could be in part. Homer influenced like everyone.

[meager epoch]

true true, it is the cornerstone of western literature

[small zinc]

Which is what makes ||Turgenev interesting. Russia has this quasi west quasi east idea to wrestle with||

[meager epoch]

send in a br request

[small zinc]

Let’s see, I can fit it in somewhere in 2026

[tribal cove]

I know br is over, but I will still post in here to encourage myself to read, hope you don't mind!

Finished book 13&14. I feel a little bit bored toward these two chapters for || have to read a backstory made up by Odysseus. I know it's necessary, because Athena want him to arrive the palace in disguise. But I still feel bored. And, in book 14, Homer gives us some info about the trojan war which I think is worth taking notes. ||
Come to think of it, ||the conversations between gods, goddess and Odysseus are also important and make book 13 more interesting. ||

[meager epoch]

Oh also I forgot to ask - for folks who read Emily Wilson’s translation: how was it? How does it compare to Fagles?

[warm canyon]

I don’t remember reading any other translation too much so I can’t really compare. I will say I liked reading The Odyssey way more than the Iliad. I loved the translation, it felt really natural. I found myself savoring the words

The rhythm of it was really nice too, I think I read that she chose iambic pentameter because that’s what westerners are used to reading; and it def felt much more natural to read

[tight herald]

I wanted to answer this in time, but I've been finishing up another book, so I'll answer these now

🌲 Not exactly a favourite word, but I like the descriptions Homer uses to depict the beginning of a new day, particularly when Dawn is personified and awakens
🛡️ mmm...no ...yes? maybe? || It's complicated because I see some struggles of Odysseus and his men as his fault, but then again its complicated. He was given detailed prophecies of his future, but idk if he would've had the power to prevent them or if he just had to see them through. Although in other aspects he was heroic...to an extent when defeating the suitors ||
🗡️ I kinda wanted || a fight between Odysseus and Calypso I was kinda disappointed when she was just like fineeee , I'll let him go, whatever but Odysseus had also gone through a lot after he sailed away, but stilllll ||

[small zinc]

I think I feel oppositely. I preferred The Iliad but I read Caroline Alexander’s edition. She was the first woman to translate the work and Wilson was the first for The Odyssey (probably why she did that order now that I think about it). It might be translation though because to me the words felt more like river stones with The Odyssey. Alexander’s translation felt like the path of an arrow—sharp but aware of perspective. I’ll be curious to see if it’s just preferring The Iliad to The Odyssey or if it’s the translators. I’ll grab Wilson’s when it comes out later this year.

[meager epoch]

[small zinc]

||steel drum competition to finish out the epic poem huh?||

[warm canyon]

Yeah I did like her translation, I guess. I just like Odyssey better. It’s not really the translator’s fault, but like one thing I read in Wilson’s translator’s note was that she chose to cut down on repetitive epithets and use them in a way that fit the dialogue and mood she wanted to create. I would have liked that in The Iliad. It just seemed to drag, where Odyssey felt quicker paced to me

[small zinc]

I think that’s also the nature of the works. The Odyssey has a lot of places whereas The Iliad is one location (mostly)

[warm canyon]

I just started to feel like I should be in a call and repeat with Iliad. “And then Apollo” me: the one who shoots arrows from afar, or whatever it was

[small zinc]

I did really enjoy her author’s note though for Wilson

[warm canyon]

Oops I meant Iliad

[warm canyon]

Yeah it was really good

[warm canyon]

But it had more gods lol. Benefits and drawbacks I guess

[small zinc]

It did which is something I heavily enjoy about The Iliad

[warm canyon]

Cost/benefit analysis of Iliad vs Odyssey lol

Spellcheck has abandoned me lmao

[small zinc]

To me the gods in The Odyssey ||felt off. Like Zeus was like… yeah do whatever I guess. Poseidon was just in tantrum mode—I mean… didn’t Poseidon side with the Greeks at Troy and Odysseus used a horse (tribute to Poseidon as he’s the lord of horses) to outwit his enemies… then Athena was kinda lame in The Odyssey whereas she was badass in The Iliad. Idk. I don’t get the whole lying bit about The Odyssey at all. Why is this a good thing?||

[small zinc]

Omg. I almost typed Ofyssey too

[small zinc]

Plus I miss (The Iliad) ||butt hurt Ares! I need my baby god! Plus that description of Hephaestus’s armor for Achilles||… sheesh!

[warm canyon]

Yeah agree

[warm canyon]

Ooo yeah ||felt like all the gods in Iliad were just big babies, all big feelings||

[small zinc]

Wilson’s translation was definitely easier to read as a whole though. I wish I had been able to read Wilson for The Iliad too for some consistency. Not sure when I’ll actually sit to read The Iliad again. Maybe a favorite book or two when I first get it. But the whole thing? Idk.

[warm canyon]

Yeah agree

There’s just so many books to read

[small zinc]

Soooo The Aeneid?

[meager epoch]

Yoooooo let’s do it

When

I have Fagles again

[small zinc]

That Fagles guy never quits

Is there support for another epic?

[meager epoch]

I’d join!!!

You can always br request it to see the interest level

[warm canyon]

Virgil?

[small zinc]

That’s the one. Follows a Trojan leaving Troy who discovers Rome

Kinda different because Virgil is a Roman poet and not a Greek one. Basically written 800 years after Homer

[warm canyon]

Yeah, that would actually set a good stage for The Faerie Queene, Spenser was heavily influenced by Virgil

Just give me like a month or two before we start?

[small zinc]

Yeah I’d wanna wait till after October myself

[tribal cove]

Book 15
|| I don't have much thoughts.. The prince take a fugitive who is a prophet in his boat. The background story of the swineherd and the prophet. I guess Odysseus is going to meet his son in next chapter. ||

and.. I learned many words of seafaring through this chapter ⚓

[tribal cove]

Book 16 finished
|| ·Father meet son. And they are plotting how to avenge the suitors together.
· Athena transform Odysseus
· Prince's herald can't keep secrets. ||

[tribal cove]

Book 17
|| Part of this chapter is repeat Telemachus' voyage and Odysseus's fake journey.
Other parts are some clash of words between the loyalties and suitors.
Theoclymenus, the seer, made a prophecy only after prince tell his voyage. If I am present, I would think the seer is just a imposter :/ ||
Sentences I like
|| the lyre that God has made the friend of feast (line 297)
If beggars have their gods and Furies too, let Antinous meet his death before he meet his bride! ||

[meager epoch]

a New Yorker article I came across profiling Emily Wilson!
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/09/18/emily-wilson-profile

[tribal cove]

Book 20
• || Athena interfere again. the goddess seems leading/guiding suitors actions and thus changes Odysseus' responses to them. ||
• || I'm thinking what's the prince 's fault everyone was talking about. Maybe it's the boldness the prince showed when his father sits around? I will soon find out in coming chapters. ||

[tribal cove]

I'll come back in two months after rl problems and work being solved or finished.👋

[meager epoch]

See you then!! Hope everything goes well

[tribal cove]

Book 22
|| • We finally see the revenge being executed. It has been forecast for 3.4 chapters/books.
The details of the slaughter are brutal! Especially the one being hanged up.
• I feel the slow-paced narrative, the forcasting of the revenge, is just too long. I wonder if the repetition is the feature of Homer's Epic poems? ||

[meager epoch]

You mean repetition as repeated verses or story elements?

[tribal cove]

more like Story elements. For example, the early adventure has been told more than once, tho not using same words or the second time is a brief summary.
And Odysseus talks about the revenge from around Book 20, and it actually happens at Book 22.

[meager epoch]

ahhh i see. ya I think some people theorized that in order for Homer to sing the whole epic poem, Homer needed to repeat phrases or elements like choruses in order to "take a break" before beginning the next phase

[tribal cove]

Yes,

Or to help readers/listeners to remember the whole story

[meager epoch]

Ya I guess it’s like the TV shows we watch:
Previously, on Gossip Girl…
Next, on Gossip Girl…
xoxo, Homer

[tribal cove]

Finished Book 23.
|| • The reason why using the Great Rooted Bed as book title is revealed at the later half of this chapter. It works same as the scar, only close persons would know how it comes or how it was made. ||
|| • The story is not over yet Homer told us at the end of this chapter. There is another trial waiting for Odysseus and Penelope. ||