#Penetration issues

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

tender cloud
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The primary issue is that there's a chance that the T-34's wheel and then fuel tanks can block the shells which probably is partially caused by the fact that wheels are basically a 20mm RHA plate with no modifier.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1498130/discussions/0/601905718689351544/

Game version: 1.0.10

Video (the non penetration shots happened after ~2:00):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3RR1QUHNe4

This topic might be worth checking:
https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/52059-the-original-data-and-analysis-of-t-34-85-protection-and-firepower/

Edit.
This probably as well
https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/52058-the-principle-of-armor-piercing/

Also included an image as a reference in case the KV-1 has any issues

image.png
tender cloud
finite ferry
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thanks, ill go through it asap, latest monday

tender cloud
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Ok then, I played one battle and have some footage where it really has issues with penetrating area behind the wheels.
It really might be barely possible to destroy the T-34 if you shoot at it by using the Pz IV's or StuG's 75mm gun and aim for the lower side plate behind the wheels
Basically it gets a level on protection better than in the KV-1S, so 45mm RHA plate + 20mm RHA plate.

https://streamable.com/1a82hc
The last one in the video managed to penetrate it only because it went over the wheels

Streamable
Watch 75mm vs T-34 | Streamable

Watch "75mm vs T-34" on Streamable.

▶ Play video
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In War Thunder it would easily went in since they have these different armor modifiers for wheels etc. and they give you only 10mm more of protection (though their thickness is also 20mm) at this angle there.

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finite ferry
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Yeah, I was playing wittman and had issues too to hit him there

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it said penetration but nothing more happened

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penetration with yellow labels

finite ferry
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now back to t34

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I dont know if todays changes did something but I dont have a bigger problem now killing t34 when simulating a shot from 75mm from 500-600 meters to side armor through wheels

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I'll test few more times but I guess this just needs more people to tell me

tender cloud
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Ok then I'll do some testing of these wheels in the shooting range

tender cloud
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Looks fine, I'm not sure

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Anyway, I'll post all videos related to the frontal edge of armor between upper and lower plate + turret front

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Turret position might be slightly off because of the X-ray bug

finite ferry
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Im on our test scene with same setup, 50m apcbc 88 mm

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and in your video it says 67 angle of attack

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when I set the camera more or less the same it says 6 degree

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it looks like depending which pixel you hit of that armor part then it can really quickly increase the angle of attack

tender cloud
finite ferry
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yeah

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I think ill need a better tool as well as the scene to test for you guys also

tender cloud
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That 100mm plate is just impossible to penetrate in most cases
Meanwhile it should provide similar protection to the upper plate

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I hate using WT as a reference but

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It's being calculated based on the physical model

image.png
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If I remember correctly WT has lots of bullshit stuff before they switched to volumetric shells and this kind "physical" armor (it's not used in every vehicle btw), but I guess adding anything like that to Tank Squad would require lots of effort and probably it's not worth it to go for that this year

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GHPC has that kind of armor modelling as well I think

finite ferry
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I guess our calculations about depth of angled armor is incorrect, how the hell it calculated the 212 mm effective armor in this place + the angle - should it be so high ?

tender cloud
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I don't think what you have is wrong

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If I remember correctly in the older version of WT they split that edge into a few armor pieces with different thickness, so something like that @finite ferry

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or maybe it was just one plate

finite ferry
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we have this one 99

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and this 45

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heres 75

tender cloud
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tbh that the's problem with modeling cast plates around edges, it works only when the impact angle is 0 deg

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and why Gaijin switched to the different method of doing that

image.png
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meanwhile here's the IS-3 still using the old method

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So the only option here is going for some kind of compromise and not modelling in 100% realistic way (what we have now isn't that realistic either)

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Btw, you said that you had a difficulty with killing the Panzer III and IV while playing T-34
Pz IV's frontal hull armor should be quite decent against the Russian 76mm, but the turret shouldn't be able to stop it from any distance

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in WT the Pz III's armor is quite decent against the 76mm

image.png
tender cloud
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what the hell

image.png
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A little bit low quality but shows the armor

image.png
finite ferry
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I'll read through it later, much references to go through

tender cloud
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Let's say that this part has very variable thickness

image.png
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it's just a "100mm plate"

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In that reference image with the description they said that the 88m shell went through 140mm of armor

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I think that's the most of thickness that you can get there if you look from the front

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Though to me it looks more like a 80mm "plate", not 100mm

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I'm not sure what exactly is this

image.png
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there's a good chance that this cast armor had also lower quality than the 45mm plates

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since that 88mm APCBC went through that 140mm from 1500m

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I would say that the easiest and temporary solution would be decreasing it to 75-80mm

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and then make this "plate" smaller in the damage model, so like this

edit.
tbh it could be even smaller

image.png
finite ferry
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I'll start by checking the math that calculates effective armor

tender cloud
tender cloud
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About the Pz IV

image.png
finite ferry
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I'm messing around with the penetration system, trying to figure out better way to detect the real thickness of armor

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we'll see how it works out

tender cloud
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It will still be hard to penetrate if that edge's thickness is not reduced to 75-80mm

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There's a 0.94 armor multiplier because it's a cast armor
So you get less than 75mm of real thickness in WT

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finite ferry
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sure, I'll get these in too

finite ferry
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Im adding these types, now I'll need help assigning correct armor types, @digital torrent I think I'll share this with you

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Also I found way to have proper volumetric check of collider thickness/depth so we can start adding mesh colliders that have the real shape and thickness to calculate properly

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When I detect hitting such armor (only exterior for the moment) I immidiately cast another ray from other direction against that armor collider

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Now with that I know where the collider ends on other side and I just need to calculate distance - of course this does not take into account trajectory change upon penetration etc but it's better than now

finite ferry
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it's a start