Movement Speed Changes (Almost Every Class)

[lapis yoke]

I will start this thread by saying that my general take on classes is that we need to push them into a stance of which they are not good/bad, or easily perform/struggle with a given activity, but rather they are generally viable at whatever they do, albeit effective/inefficient at certain tasks, so rather than being forced to change your class, you can keep using your favorite provided you are okay with taking the consequences that come with it. This makes it so although you can play the game on one gem set, it would be otherwise more effective to play on multiple, rather than having to build multiple; an argument to this claim is there are a lot of Shadow Hunters already playing this way, with several thousands of levels racked on one class, rarely touching others unless they choose to become more viable at something, and if they do, it's just for a short while/specific period. In other words, if you disagree with this statement, you argue for a Shadow Hunter nerf, more or so preventing people from playing under this format.

With the argument out of the way Neon Ninja is arguably uncontested in movement speed, despite having crappy damage, meaning that pretty much every player at this point has a 47k Neon Ninja designed solely for situations of where you can take advantage of its speed, and nobody else plays the class other than speedfarmers who refuse to give it up.

I propose a solution to movement speed. The current idea is that the less viable a class is in terms of AoE and mobility, the more damage it deserves; albeit this is not always the case. In another thread we can talk about what implications these movement speed ideas I have below, or you can just ask via question(s) in this one.

As usual thunbs up or down this message on the stance of whether or not you disagree with my ideas because the below ones won't count for the thread(as it won't be visible before opening it). Classes are listed by their creation date.

[lapis yoke]

• Knight: Won't speak since a rework is in current order.

• Gunslinger: When airborne gain 30 Movement Speed.

• Fae Trickster: Blink gives you 40% Movement Speed for 3 seconds after being used Scrapped, Unchanged

• Dracolyte: Unchanged (had an old idea with lava, feel like it deserves to be scrapped now)

• Neon Ninja: Unchanged (it will still be a fast class, even with contestors it should be fine to not modify its buff.)

• Candy Barbarian: Unchanged (it has to be slower than neon ninja)

• Ice Sage: Unchanged (not fast, but there are more relevant issues with this class, it doesn't have to be overly mobile.)

• Shadow Hunter: Unchanged (it gets the movement speed buff solely off of a dodge, and with the current amount of heavy Shadow Hunter players, movement speed probably isn't what we need to be looking at, but rather crowd control implemented into abilities.)

• Pirate Captain: Unchanged (no ideas)

• Boomeranger: Unchanged (speed in comparison to the Solarion would depend on whether or not you had the Trailblazing Emblem equipped; most swords use it, albeit most bows don't)

• Tomb Raiser: 50% Movement Speed while Banshee's Boon is active Scrapped, Unchanged

• Lunar Lancer: Lunar Leap/Need For Speed > 2x Physical Damage/Movement Speed (from 1.85x) Scrapped

• Revenant: Rather than just no longer slowing you(similar to the old Spin to Win), gain 25 Movement Speed while Spirit Spears is active with the Speed Spears ring ability equipped Scrapped, Unchanged

• Chloromancer: No Ideas

• Dino Tamer: Dino Mount > 50% Movement Speed (from 40)

• Vanguardian: the whole class needs to be swapped up, it's actually so nauseatingly bad that i won't add accompanying text here

• Bard: Unchanged (the buff affects everyone around it, it'd need to be thought about more)

• Solarion: Prismatic Blast > 8 Movement Speed per blast, capping at 40 total Movement Speed after 5 blasts (gives it more mobility, whilst keeping it below most classes) Scrapped, Unchanged

[lapis yoke]

Let exclude Knight Vanguardian and Dracolyte. Then with these changes implemented Movement Speed should follow the following consensus:

Neon Ninja/Lunar Lancer>Fae Trickster>Candy Barbarian>Shadow Hunter/Bard/Dino Tamer>Tomb Raiser>Gunslinger>Ice Sage/Boomeranger/Solarion/Revenant>>>Pirate Captain/Chloromancer

This means that every class with low boss damage should have high movement speed buffs, whilst classes that are good at the low delve/high delve and/or bosses are assigned lower movement speed buffs since those are their primary areas. With this assignment we can give the classes with higher movement speed buffs the ability to perform everyday activities like Shadow Hunter can, Pirate Captain and Chloromancer could potentially be reworked to be the hardest hitters in the game - Pirate Captain does slightly less damage whilst having more crowd control, Chloromancer would do the highest boss damage in the game(again) whilst only being able to perform towards its max potential on the boss and wasting a ton of flasks. A good balance would be old Chloro with the current gatling cooldown it has on its ultimate, forcing it to use almost all of its flasks to unlock its maximum potential!

In other words the amount of damage you do is greatly dependent on your overall viability. Slow prep time classes that struggle to play the game dominate single target horror minibosses and actual bosses/leviathans themselves with zero knockback, classes with great damage and viability are cursed with knockback and mediocrity, classes that are the fastest have mediocre damage, pretty much making everything playable except Pirate Captain and Chloromancer - even then, players would find ways to play them since they would hit so egregiously hard!

This is a GREAT way to design classes, and it would make the game much more enjoyable for everyone.

But there are a lot of people that may think the current meta of struggling/dominating areas is better. The 👍👎 is just consensus now.

now i was going to reread this text to make sure the whole thing made sense but i see no need to do that when these threads barely get any traction since stuff like this isn't that relevant to most players. i just type these when im bored anyway

[mighty glen]

(|| Can we make draco worse pls ||)

[lapis yoke]

don't let freeandsay see this

[sweet timber]

Holy yap oh my goooooodddddddd

I’ll read this later

[mighty glen]

There he cant see it now

[lapis yoke]

bumping thread

[sweet timber]

This only applies to console because pc players use speedhacks anyways

[lapis yoke]

ideally we shut down the pc and switch servers then release newgen versions for ps/xbox

[sweet timber]

✅

Ideally the devs care somewhat about speedhacks but they don’t

[lapis yoke]

easy solution to the dupe is to make trading posts not available in adventure worlds, and get rid of the scuffed and dead servers 😂 solves console player issue too

[sweet timber]

There’s a reason why pc players glaze heckmantis / manabeasts

[lapis yoke]

😳 because they hit harder in d15 and only d15

[sweet timber]

And the speed boost from scorpius makes up for it but that doesn’t matter because you can just give yourself a billion movement speed

Good game

Me when I use heckmantis to kill d15 bosses 0.01 seconds quicker but take longer to get to the next boss anyways

And then you still either 1 shot or 2 shot the skull enemies

[lapis yoke]

light is less sensitive in d15 and always has been

meaning that if you used the manabeast allies in 2024 they still would have hit very slightly harder

anyone saying mystic is useless after 3 3 3 is pretty stupid due to the above reason

[sweet timber]

I noticed a damage difference from c5 to m5 but I don’t really remember how much I was doing with m3 anyways

[lapis yoke]

i went from m0 to m5 sword never felt a more insane difference in my lifetime

[sweet timber]

Blud is glazing mystic gear

[lapis yoke]

just try it bro

then again sword chads are better than you bow losers

[sweet timber]

I think you’ve seen more insane differences

[lapis yoke]

i guess but for simply gear it felt a bit ridiculous at the time

i feel much weaker from 2 0 2 <-> 2 5 2

[sweet timber]

The amount I had to grind did not pay off

Not to say there wasn’t a difference but like not in relation to how much you had to grind

[lapis yoke]

it's not excessive unless you play more than one class

[sweet timber]

It doesn’t really matter now because mystic is easy as hell to max

Obelisk farms are ridiculously overpowered now

I’m surprised the price hasn’t gone down due to invader week

[lapis yoke]

not really

there aren't that many 5 5 5 players

[sweet timber]

I got 400 cores in 2 hours

[lapis yoke]

nobody who is 5 5 5 consistently did obelisk

[sweet timber]

Well the buff to obelisks was recent

[sweet timber]

This was on the low end

Some people were getting even more

[lapis yoke]

the high rate makes you lazier

[scarlet niche]

Remind me to leave feedback tomorrow, typing on mobile discord is horrible

Speed adjustments (some directly, others indirectly) are in most of the class change threads i've made

I'll add something simple to the pirate one later

[lapis yoke]

sure ig

[scarlet niche]

Thanks bro

[sweet timber]

🫧 🐠

[scarlet niche]

i think a speed increase for GS would be better if it was outside of the ult, overreliance on 1 ability and all.
fae honestly already has a lot of speed with blink spam, only limitation being energy regen.
having draco spawn a block of lava probably wouldn't be consistent due to certain places in the game not letting you change blocks (similar to one of ice sage's ring effects requiring you to stand on ice blocks, which rarely ever happens due to this)
candy barb would be faster if the passive simply lasted longer.
i agree with the ice sage one.
pirate captain could just gain a temporary speed buff after obtaining doubloons.
tomb raiser could perhaps have a smaller stacking speed boost tied to restless souls carried.
with the thread i made for LL, lunarform and by extension speed buffs would have way more uptime, speed amount itself is fine as is.
i think the speed dino tamer currently has is good enough considering how much area the basic attack covers.
vanguardian doodoo kit design
solarion having a speed buff ring effect similar to LL, trading damage for speed would be more fair and balanced.

[lapis yoke]

not all movement speed buffs are supposed to be consistent

varying consistency on abilities makes the classes more unique

the ult upkeep for the gunslinger is longer than that of the sage

its not that the movement speed buff being in the ult is bad, it's that the overall viability of the class without it is bad

gunslinger becomes more viable / powerful the more you progress in the game as ult upkeep and attack speed can both be circumvented past some point so a movement speed buff is the #1 worry of the class before we could ever possibly place a balance on it without using the ult

since it is egregiously difficult to get the class outside of the ult without just putting the class gem itself there

the real problem is, if you buff the gunslinger you must buff the dino tamer as well, otherwise it becomes utterly pointless to use that class since dt is the speedfarmer and gs is the all-rounder that unfortunately has low speed and excessive ult reliability

[scarlet niche]

gunslinger deals a whole lot more dps than dino tamer

[lapis yoke]

didn't know that. it's why gunslinger deserves more speed but you should still give dt the ability for it to be more effective at the general speedfarm

[scarlet niche]

SH wish it had DT's basic attack

[lapis yoke]

saying fae has alot of movement speed is like saying neon ninja could have its shadow flip multiplier reduced to 20% and it'd still be good since that's a good balance

you can't get movement speed without having actual movement speed on your stat first

also lunar lancer and consistency... i feel as adding consistency to it defeats the point of the class. sometimes you're powerful, sometimes you're not. i believe the problem is the amount of dps it does in lunarform since it does literally nothing to a boss, other than that moon power simply not draining as fast would also be nice

[lapis yoke]

i guess sh has zero ult reliance and is very simple to play

dt with aggressive ult reliance will make it less consistent in the circumstance that it doesn't have any flasks

also it does less damage regardless of the scenario you put it in

if dt outclasses sh at a task then it is deserved as it allows for a dynamic other than the fact you need to use five flasks to get the dt's ult up whenever you swap to it

it would also make gun better, since ms, ms/dps and dps could become a thing

[scarlet niche]

why would you swap class right before starting combat

[lapis yoke]

in d15 you clear on one class and swap to the one you run on

[scarlet niche]

oh ok

[lapis yoke]

am i missing anything

[scarlet niche]

lunarform dps isn't as bad as you'd think

[lapis yoke]

not enough for a leviathan

for a class to be able to do the above, it'd atleast need the amount of damage shadow hunter does

which is the minimal for viability in terms of dps

or bard probably^

[scarlet niche]

that's a buff+lunarform uptime issue

[lapis yoke]

at max melody

[lapis yoke]

i hated it even with lunarform active as i didn't feel my damage skyrocket down when it happened

moon power just really needs to drain slower thought

they did it too harshly

would be better if the class gem partained to that wow lightbulb

[scarlet niche]

7.5x*2.4/s, passive 1.3x damage, effectively 2x damage with ult and hook buff active

46.8x damage per second, compared to shadow hunter's 26x per second

without seekers that is

[lapis yoke]

can't have up lunar leap consistently and i don't think it needs to be. a simple fix would just be the upkeep i guess

it needs to be unfairly consistent

close to a toggle but not at a toggle

for lunarform^

[scarlet niche]

rough estimate with seeker arrows included, 37x dps on SH

46.8x on LL is without even considering the spear drop and classgem minions

[lapis yoke]

do you think that's fair? 🤔 you seem to have always thought br/sol were overpowered but in this case it doesn't even match gs/cm/pc

[scarlet niche]

pc has like, 60-65x i think?

[lapis yoke]

buff pc

it's not immense dps but i guess it would make it viable then

to lunar^

[scarlet niche]

gs has on average 87.5x dps

pc has 62x (1 ult active), 71x with avast ye ring effect

idk why the devs decided to buff gunslinger's damage again (though it barely made a difference)

but yeah, if LL were to get it's buffs more consistent, the damage would need to be reduced to compensate

[lapis yoke]

after playing lunar lancer more, its inconsistencies are what make it so nice to use

it has very nice impact damage and you can use chronomantic, to not fully circumvent, but to make the lunarform more consistent

the issue is simply the bad damage it does

rather than making the lunarform more consistent as a solution (which doing that and lowering multipliers will do nothing about its situation)

we need to add another damage source to it

the simplest solution is adding insanely OP DoT effects to the two abilities it has during lunarform so they are not utterly useless in comparison to the blessing of the moon

in a way that chronomantic lunar lancer can atleast be at pace with shadow hunter

since i have said multiple times in the past, shadow hunter is the bare minimum for DPS, if we compare its inconsistent lunarform to it, all problems are solved

the majority of lunars like playing the class despite the inconsistencies it has, and after playing it, i can definitely see why

movement speed, impact damage and crowd control are all unbeatable

would just be another neon ninja if you could use the ms buff more often and too overpowered if lunarform were always up

[lapis yoke]

updated my idea on gunslinger in this thread

[past flint]

👎

[tepid hill]

these are cool rework ideas for the classes. I don’t think move speed needs a change. Certain classes are better at different things and I think thats what makes the diversity so interesting. If all classes were all as effective as the last then there wouldn’t be use for having multiple classes. That being said I do think that these changes would be good for the classes since some of them lack speed for farming.

[lapis yoke]

If all classes were all as effective as the last then there wouldn’t be use for having multiple classes.

i was wondering why this was the SECOND time someone said this to me, but the more i think about it, the more i realize that my ideas are proposed out of hatred that some classes are heavily played and some aren't, and will eventually end up like this had we kept increasing the viable fronts of every class overtime.

there really are no problems with how classes currently work; only lower ends on the class cast. i'm sure someday, we will open up to more classes without ruining the purposes of them and/or others, but me posting like this shows that i was not only indifferent from nerfers, but mainly not the one who was mature enough to seek out such a path.

[subtle karma]

i think a better way to do this is to make it so that a mounts movement speed is class base speed + 90, so with star chart most classes can be at 135-155 base, + 90 would mean while mounted all classes have 220-240 movement speed

[tepid hill]

faster mounts would be a good idea

[lapis yoke]

movement speed would become meaningless based on the class

the goal of this thread was just to add more competitors to movement speed

in the best reality need for speed lunar lancer is much faster than flip spamming neon ninja

[lapis yoke]

airborn terrorsquid is good enough for me

[lapis yoke]

although the first step is allowing the class to use blessing of the moon freely

[lapis yoke]

drastically increased fae trickster's theoretical movement speed buff

[lapis yoke]

yap post incoming 🤓 good additions to the meta could be making pc/cm very slow dps classes with different purposes, with the goal of pc being to do AoE like most gun classes do and cm doing single target; the difference between boomeranger bow and sword on the magic side.

the goal is to make them absolutely crappy outside of the long term dps situation, and as such, are the hardest hitting classes in the game under this perception, with pirate captain being the second strongest, and chloro being the strongest by a selling margin, giving both of the least used classes in the game something

chloro should be using a pot with chronomantic every second whilst pirate captain should be the opposite of flask dependent, theoretically just losing 2.5x md when emblems are not being spammed

old chloro is good, you could place a maximum of 3 turrets per every 10 blocks, rather than this allow us to have up to twelve turrets at any place up at one time, with everything else old chloro had. alot of people may think it's op still and deserved the nerf and im okay if it doesn't go back to what it was. but i feel like when it was OP it had a huge lead on a specific purpose and that is more than enough to make a class what it is

class gem should completely remove the chloromancer's need to heal its own plants by making them max health instantly rather than being whatever it is right now

pirate captain will need to be something thought out by an intelligent person, preferably the man who reworked boomer

[lapis yoke]

in general the goal of chloro is to take it back to its own form where it was purely designed for single target boss nuking and sucked at literally every other task in the game, whilst buffing it by making the gatling rules more comfortable for it

would be nice if the man o war and pretend pirate were swapped

man o war increased to like 600% md and has a ring ability that allows it to shoot directly at the ground regardless of whether mobs near it, has a cd of 10 seconds and you can only run one at a time

pretend pirate drains its own minion health for the first five seconds like draco babies do unless an enemy destroys and after that time does tremendous magic damage by creating a DoT and pull

holy im tired im not typing anymore gn

[lapis yoke]

decreased fae trickster's buff back to what i had before

physical damage classes should be faster, and magic damage stronger, as it always was

[lapis yoke]

Bad Idea

[lapis yoke]

pretty much all ideas are scrapped now. after looking at this, the current movement speed system is much fairer than players give it credit for. a good solution to the current meta issues are:

-> Gunslinger and Dino Tamer need more movement speed
-> Chloromancer needs proper damage

This sequence will allow us to give Magic Damage more favor for the time being, since Staff will have damage, and Gun will have movement speed. Any other changes are due time to the developer's interests. Pirate Captain's player count is really bad, but so is Fae Trickster's, and as long as we get these out of the way, there will be some incentive to running Magic Damage in the current meta to players, subsequently allowing the devs to take longer steps when it comes to redesigning classes in trove.