📚｜english-questions

[boreal ingot]

Isn't it 'comprehensible'?

Oh I havent seen 'comprehendible' before

interesting

[cloud badge]

it can be either, where i live its comprehendible

[hoary lichen]

comprehendible is when someone can comprehend you

the thing being comprehended is comprehensible

[hoary lichen]

the capability of being comprehended

[hoary lichen]

the actual thing being talked about is understandable

[flat rune]

What is the difference between these : Henceforth, I'm going to stop talking to you because you're as rude as my sister when she was 8. From now on, I'm going to stop talking to you because you're as rude as my sister when she was 8.

oh ok ty

[verbal heron]

@hoary lichen Exemplify the words demonstrating the difference in their usage

[signal shell]

I don't think there is any difference, to be honest. But no one really uses the word "henceforth" these days, unless they are being dramatically formal.

Yeah, I don't think there's any real difference between comprehensible and comprehendible. I can't find a source that can show the difference. They seem interchangeable to me

I've always used comprehensible, and that seems to be the more widely accepted one

[crimson vortex]

Henceforth sounds ultra formal

[crimson vortex]

Hello, what's the difference between from now on and from now onward

[signal shell]

They are the same, but rarely would anyone say "onward" in this context

[crimson vortex]

Okay, thanks, by the way, you changed the words order in the second clause of your sentence even though this is an affirmative sentence

What's the name of the rule when we change the order of words?

Some people also combine it with neither, e.g "Neither did he do it, but he also..."

I am quite confused about how to use it

[signal shell]

I didn't even notice I did that. I just said what came naturally. Now I'm confused by it, too. Lol

I don't know the name for this arrangement of words

[signal shell]

I'll have to look into this because I have no idea why I do this, but thinking about it more, I know there is some pattern to it

[crimson vortex]

There is a rule, but i forgot the name. Many natives use it

[signal shell]

It's similar to how we construct questions, but this is clearly not a question

Very strange. I've never thought much about this particular rule. I was hardly even aware I did this until now lol

The pattern I'm seeing is that you start with an adverb, followed by some auxiliary verb, then the subject, then the verb.

"rarely have I seen" is basically the same as "I have rarely seen"

[verbal heron]

But I think the former adds more emphasis to the point mentioned or being mentioned

[signal shell]

"rarely would anyone say" sounds right to me but it doesn't sound right to say "anyone would rarely say"

This is tickling my brain, in a good way. I need to figure this out

[verbal heron]

‘I don't think anyone would rarely say it like that’

Ay it seems to have a different connotation

Btw is ‘from then on’ in common usage?

[signal shell]

Yeah, I would probably use it. Sounds normal to me

It's similar to "from now on" but using "then" as the reference in time rather than "now"

[verbal heron]

Alright, thanks

[flat rune]

Nor means neither ?

[verbal heron]

It's just that I never came across the phrase 'from then on' in any book or resources I've read so far. But I am nothing less than a beginner, for I misarticulate my thoughts or ideas often, and that phrase could be in common usage without my knowledge; so I decided to confirm it as to if it is used or not

[flat rune]

For example : Me nor means me neither ?

[verbal heron]

It is used after neither

[flat rune]

Me neither nor ?

[signal shell]

Nor is used with neither, much like or is used with either

I would like either this or that

[verbal heron]

‘I like neither apples nor oranges’

[signal shell]

Exactly

[flat rune]

It means u like apples but not oranges

[signal shell]

It means you don't like apples and you don't like oranges

[flat rune]

Oh ok

Can it be interchanged by smth else

I don't like that word

' nor '

[verbal heron]

Yes you can use ‘not even’

bu tone will get changed ig

Like: ‘I don't like apples, not even oranges’

[signal shell]

Gosh, now I see it everywhere. Even with "nor", I arrange my words in that pattern we talked about earlier

"I haven't done that before, nor would I ever want to."

Which has the same meaning as "I haven't done that before, and I would never want to"

🤯

I still cannot satisfy myself with an explanation for why we do this

[verbal heron]

Most likely for concision

[signal shell]

Both expressions are equally concise

[verbal heron]

it seems to be slightly wordy to me tho

[signal shell]

They have exactly equal number of words

I don't understand what you mean

Equal number of syllables as well

It's just replace nor with and, then rearrange some words

[verbal heron]

(lmao) the latter has more number no. of letters

[signal shell]

One letter

Ever to never

Nor to and

Swap I and would

Lol

It boggles my mind that it doesn't sound right to say "nor I would ever"

Nor to say "and would I never"

[verbal heron]

Ah, I think you are right. But still it's more wordy than it would be if we used neither.. nor

[signal shell]

This particular example doesn't use "neither"

[boreal ingot]

You invert word order after negative adverbials and some adverbials of place.

Seldom have I seen such brutality.
Upon the tree sat a bird.
For long roared the tempest.
No longer will we accept such tyranny.

In Ross's case, 'rarely' is a negative adverbial, or at least talks about something being infrequent, so the subject and verb are inverted

[verbal heron]

‘I neither did that before, nor would I ever want to’

Provided that it's correct

[boreal ingot]

Subject-verb inversion after adverbials is what I'd call it

[signal shell]

I mean, I guess you could phrase it like that

[verbal heron]

So it of course reduces the number of words

[signal shell]

I mean you had to remove haven't to add neither

[boreal ingot]

You do have mistakes but youre no beginner lol

[signal shell]

Still roughly the same

[signal shell]

Yeah I agree with this, vampire is advanced, at least in writing

[crimson vortex]

What are adverbials? Adverbs?

[verbal heron]

Still we can retain the perfect tense by phrasing it as ‘I neither have done that before’ imo

[boreal ingot]

Things that act like adverbs

[signal shell]

This doesn't sound right to me

[boreal ingot]

I ran for 10 years
'for 10 years' is a prepositional phrase acting adverbially

One could call it an adverbial

[verbal heron]

I often articulate my ideas incorrectly, however, I used to do that oftener before I started reading books. But I am glad that I have found this awesome and friendly community 🎉

[verbal heron]

I hope you all will help me with improving my speaking skills

[verbal heron]

And if I exchange the positions of the words: have, and neither, would it be correct?

[signal shell]

Perhaps

This is kinda hurting my head now. The more I think about it, the more can't decide

[boreal ingot]

I struggle with putting my thoughts into words too, especially out loud. I remember once I wanted to explain the 'rolling in place' sort of rotation of a brush out loud, and all I could manage was 'well, it's like rotating but like not rotating, it's like, rotating around itself but not like around a pole through its center but like, like imagine a line going through it on the x axis and its rotating around that' 😭😭it was so embarrassing

[signal shell]

I'm starting to overthink this

[boreal ingot]

What I could have said was 'the same type of rotation you do when using a screwdriver' instead of spending 20 minutes puzzling over how on earth to explain it

I particularly struggle with explaining the motion of objects through 3d space in a sophisticated way

Actually, if anyone has tips for that that would be appreciated

[flat rune]

Ty

[crimson vortex]

Is it always necessary to follow this rule (changing words arrangement)

[crimson vortex]

It can be fixed with attending voice channels on different servers

I personally use anime soul discord vc's

[flat rune]

You're in math class ?

[signal shell]

this is breaching into highly technical territory, but this exists

[flat rune]

You're strong at math ?

[signal shell]

yeah i'd say i'm pretty good at math

better than in english

[flat rune]

Could you teach me some things in english ?

I got a bad mark

[boreal ingot]

confusing but better than nothing

[boreal ingot]

oh this seems to be exactly what I struggled to explain

a shame I have no idea how these terms are used lol

[boreal ingot]

nope

[boreal ingot]

not always

Upon the tree a bird sat
is just fine

but

Upon a tree sat a bird
is also possible

The latter to me sounds more natural

however, with 'seldom' you have to invert if it's at the very start

[signal shell]

Most people don't. I rarely see this terminology used outside of engineering and specific fields of science

[boreal ingot]

Seldom did I see it
Seldom I saw it

Im pretty sure the second doesnt work but Im not sure why

[boreal ingot]

Understood

thank you

[flat rune]

?

[bitter hill]

Because it's usually next to verb

I seldom saw it.

[flat rune]

Seldom ?

What does it mean

I have never heard that word

[bitter hill]

Like rarely

[flat rune]

What is the difference between " seldom " and " rarely "?

[boreal ingot]

I see

I'm pretty sure the subject verb inversion after sentence-starting adverbials is cuz Old English was a V2 language

[signal shell]

I don't think there is any difference. I think they are interchangeable

[flat rune]

Oh ok

Ty

[acoustic geyser]

Are they the same?
I am done
I've done

[flat rune]

I have already explained it to you

.

[acoustic geyser]

Hello

[analog hull]

Can anyone tell me how to improve pronunciation in English?

[cloud badge]

Practice practice practice, watch media in the accent you want, then, write the sounds of those words out, without thinking about the spelling of the word. Then just practice saying it, getting used to the vowel differences. They usually follow patterns, so if you learn the vowel patterns of a certain area, it might be easier to stick to those.

[verbal heron]

Ultimately, you have to learn about imitation

[verbal heron]

it's alright

[verbal heron]

At least you didn't lack vocabulary to articulate/support your points (rotation is not an easy concept) at that time. Were I you, I wouldn't even be able to put all my ides into words

But during monologues I am the rex of the realm 💀 (I think you will get what I mean)

[verbal heron]

wlcome, however, note that the wording will have to be changed in that case

[hallow swallow]

how to speak english

how to speak brithd

how to speak british

[pale inlet]

Does anyone have a feeling like they use too simple words and constructions to express their ideas (English is my 2nd language)?

[remote ether]

Yes @pale inlet

[fallow saddle]

@pale inlet that's okay too. Depending on the situation simple language would also be preferable

[minor crag]

Hello, everyone

[boreal ingot]

Well, the person with whom I was speaking wasn't able to understand my explanation, so I failed at communicating my point

[boreal ingot]

Simple words and constructions are alright. You needn't make your sentences prolix

The most important thing is that you're understood and understand, thereby engaging in conversation

If you can do that, then the fact you speak simply doesn't matter. It's not like natives speak in the manner of a Victorian book on the daily

[signal shell]

yeah we natives are simple creatures

[verbal heron]

You should try to get your point across. As long as you are able to do that, it should be fine.

But you must be able to reword your sentences whenever it's necessary

[verbal heron]

Was the person good at English, or do you think it was you who couldn't restate the point?

[boreal ingot]

It was 100% my fault for an awful explanation lmao

The person was a Canadian

[verbal heron]

Lmao, but I think you can expound on that point at present

[verbal heron]

Aha

I hope the person didn't doubt themselves

[boreal ingot]

I should have said 'rotate the brush like you would rotate a screwdriver' lmao

[boreal ingot]

What do you mean

Why would the native doubt themself because of my inability to explain something

[verbal heron]

It should be alright now ig

[verbal heron]

You really know that even natives have to look for words, phrases sometimes

Not only in case of english, but you can even take your own language for example

Do you not have an Arabic dictionary at home?

[verbal heron]

They would not doubt their ability, but it was more like a joke (a corny one)

[boreal ingot]

I'm too dumb for most jokes smh

[boreal ingot]

Yea

[boreal ingot]

No

But I don't use Arabic as much as English so this would be an unfair comparison

[hollow burrow]

Hey peoplee, I'm creating new english study plan to myself. I need ask a question, I want to learn where is use of thats (to be) (would like) (have been), These groups of verbs have a special name? Or is it happen enough for study this topics to I write "english verbs" to google

[hollow burrow]

Am I wrote wrong sentence? I hope this sentence is understandable.

[cloud badge]

Hmm ill rewrite it and you can tell me if I'm understanding it correctly?

[hollow burrow]

I've made such an incomprehensible sentence. XD

[cloud badge]

Hey people, I'm creating a new english study plan for myself. I need to ask a question. I want to learn where to use 'thats (to be) (would like) (have been)'. Do these groups of verbs have a special name? Or is it common enough when studying this topic for me to write "english verbs" into google

[cloud badge]

It's just the last one that confused me a bit, the rest is understandable

[hollow burrow]

Yeah it's correct

XD

Absouletly my sentences have so many wrong words

[cloud badge]

so sorry, my phone died in the middle of my reply. so hm, I think while you are still studying, googling these words is fine and can help a lot with giving you examples of where they are used. i dont know the term for them myself though. to be and would like are usually used when talking about the future, and have been is about the past. probably other poeple on here can tell you more

hey um i think this may be the wrong place to be asking this, mostly poeple come here to ask about english vocabulary and grammar and stuff, probably a game specific thread would be more helpful

[boreal ingot]

BOOOOOO get out of here

[acoustic geyser]

Yo

[boreal ingot]

hi

[acoustic geyser]

Is certain more certainly happen than likely?

[boreal ingot]

yea

[echo mortar]

Certainly generally means you are confident about it and likely refers to you aren’t sure, could happen

In short yes

[boreal ingot]

'It's likely to happen' = there is a big chance of it happening
'It's certain to happen' = it's going to happen, 100% sure

[neat bone]

What does it mean to say "I got a prompt"

[boreal ingot]

Context?

[flat rune]

What is the diff between : In some contexts and in certain contexts

[boreal ingot]

Could mean that the speaker has a writing prompt (i.e., a short description of an idea to inspire writers), or that they recived one

they could also mean they recivied a reminder of something

[neat bone]

Yeah that's it

Thanks

[ocean raft]

rarely would anyone say, that means you are emphasizing "rarely" because you deliver it on top of the sentence

[hollow burrow]

Thank you so much

[ocean raft]

imo chat gpt could help you with grammar and vocabulary, it is great in that field

[hollow burrow]

Thank you Derek, I removed my message 'cuz GPT really helping to me too

but thanks again for your answer

I'm gonna buy the plus version. It's gonna better then.

[ocean raft]

you could create multiple accounts to use it for free lol

buying is fine ig your choice

[hollow burrow]

I did create a plan for study with GPT. If I'm switching my accounts then my progress could be in vain

[verbal heron]

Just install the app

[ocean raft]

oh well then

so be it

[verbal heron]

Study with GPT?

[hollow burrow]

I learn English verbs and their uses and after that I perform voice chat

[hollow burrow]

Either way it works for me

[boreal ingot]

Don't gamble her health on internet advice

Is this a correct sentence?

[acoustic geyser]

Hello

[acoustic geyser]

If I say a broken door, it means passive voice.
So what does a dancing girl mean?

Continuous action?

[boreal ingot]

Why are you pinging me lol, that doesnt even answer my question

Either way, that's not passive

participles can be used adjectively (like adjectives)

participles are the '-ing' form and the V3 form (the one you use after 'has/had')

The present participle is the -ing form: 'dancing', 'running', 'flying', etc.

The past participle is the V3 form: 'eaten', 'broken', 'worried'

when you say 'the dancing girl', that means 'the girl that is dancing at the moment'

when you say 'the broken door', that means 'the door that is in a state of having broken'

it would be stilted, but one could say 'the breaking door finally broke; now it is the broken door'

That means 'the door that was in the process of breaking broke; now it is the door that is in the state of having broken'

https://langeek.co/en/grammar/course/626/participle-adjectives

[acoustic geyser]

Whats difference?
Can you see a standing man over there
Can you see a man standing over there

[cloud badge]

you should say 'dont gamble with or on her health with/from/using internet advice

[boreal ingot]

they're mostly the same, but the first places emphasis on the fact the man is standing, not sitting, lying, or anything else. Though the second is much more natural. The first uses the participle adjectively, the second uses it as a verb I think

[boreal ingot]

I was trying to use meeaning 3!

[boreal ingot]

By the way, idk if it's rude, but I noticed your use of double modals

[cloud badge]

yeah, like 'dont risk/gamble with her health by using internet advice"

[boreal ingot]

I know it's regional

[boreal ingot]

what does 'should would' imply exactly?

I know some places in the south of America use those

[cloud badge]

that was a typo

[boreal ingot]

Oh I see

[cloud badge]

i meant you should :p

[cloud badge]

and hm idk what modals are

[boreal ingot]

So was my sentence incorrect? I thought we could say 'Gamble [x] on [y]'

[boreal ingot]

'would' 'should' 'could' 'might', they add stuff like probability, premission, ability, etc., to the main verb that they modify

[cloud badge]

hm, i think saying gamble with or gamble on is better, but, if its 'dont gamble your money' that sounds ok. still not as good to me as adding with or something

[cloud badge]

oh oh yeah, ok so that was just the typo thing then

or 'gamble away' is used a lot

[boreal ingot]

yeaa, I was curious cuz some places use two of those in a row, and even three, rarely, so I thought you were from one of them. I find the concept interesting but don't quite understand the meanings of the combinations

so stuff like 'I might could do'

[cloud badge]

there are times when they could be used in a row, like listing possibilities. like "i would, could, and should go make myself some tea, if i wasn't too cold to go to the kitchen"

[boreal ingot]

Oh yea, that's not how those palces use them, it's like, they combine two for a different meaning

I can try to find the article

[cloud badge]

oh hm ok yeah thatd be interesting

[boreal ingot]

it doesn't go into the meanings but it does explain some stuff about them

yea gimme a sec

[boreal ingot]

https://ygdp.yale.edu/phenomena/multiple-modals

I also just found this 14-page paper which I am not going to read, but it is around if you wanna check it out
https://rudn.tlcjournal.org/archive/3(2)/3(2)-05.pdf

the article is much shorter lol

The wiki page for 'English modal auxiliary verbs' also breifly adresses it too

[cloud badge]

oh weirddd, yeah, im not from somewhere that does that, the closest ive heard, and not too rarely, is 'may well could', but i dont think that counts exactly

[boreal ingot]

I've never heard 'may well could', it sounds odd to my non-native ears, as odd as 'might should' does, so idk, it could be the same thing

I have no idea

I wish I knew someone who uses them normally, cuz I have no idea about the meaning of these strings of modals, just know that they exist

[cloud badge]

yeah those sounds weird to me too, but 'may well could' makes sense to me to mean 'it indeed might be possible'. makes me wonder how often poeple use the ones in the article

[cloud badge]

yeah exactly

[boreal ingot]

I believe both are used, but yeah that one would make more sense

So, what is supposed to come after the 'on'?

Iss a thing

idk which is more common

would 'with' work?

Don't gamble her health with internet advice

yea

No, that's saying when the first time it was observed is

if it weren't used anymore they'd have 'archaic' or 'obsolete' besides it

both are used but adjectivally is more common

I think Ive heard 'adjectively' once or twice

'adjectively' seems to be much older

Both are used, idk why then 'adjectively' would be wrong

In the COCA you find adjectivally 10 times and adjectively once, the BNC has adjectivally 3 times and adjectively none

Tbh what I care about is that it's used, but I will switch to 'adjectivally', since the '-ly' suffix is normally added to adjectives not nouns

Yeah that makes sense

What is supposed to come after the 'on'. What sets 'on internet advice' and 'on the validity of internet advice' apart?

I see

thanks

[flat rune]

what is the difference between flare and torch

oh ok ty

[boreal ingot]

Is this sentence correct? The double 'come'

Both it and the Latin word whence all the feminine words for 'ship' in the Romance languages come come from the same PIE word, which was feminine.

I don't see a reason for it not to be

but I'd like to be sure

[gaunt mango]

it's not incorrect in the traditional sentence, but it's a bit awkward

you could write the second "come" as "originate" to make it smoother and a little less awkward

[flat rune]

Come come

[boreal ingot]

makes sense

thank you lots

[flat rune]

It's the broken english

[gaunt mango]

"Romance languages come originate from the same PIE word"

[boreal ingot]

no, the first come is bart of a relative cluase

the second one is part of the main cluase

[flat rune]

Oh ok

[verbal heron]

Do you frame sentences using the words after learning them? Because otherwise they will not stick to your memory for long

[verbal heron]

Are you not even that good at spoken Arabic?

[verbal heron]

It's fascinating to see the corroboration of your points with the support of grammar each time 💀

[boreal ingot]

I can speak arabic pretty well, fluently, but I do sometimes have to use an English word lol

My written Arabic is worse than my written English

My reqding in Arabic is much worse than my reading in English

but I'm bad at reading in English, lol

My Arabic vocab is probably smaller than my English vocab

It's odd, cuz Arabic is my native lang

and I have never lived in an English-speaking country, so it coulodn't be blamed on that

[boreal ingot]

Wdym, if I may ask

I don't think I support my points that well, lol

my grammatical knowledge is tiny

[flat rune]

مرحباً كيف حالك ؟

[boreal ingot]

did you google translate? lmao

it's correct I mean

[flat rune]

Yes

But soon i'll learn arabic

[boreal ingot]

Oh my, good luck on that endevour

it's pretty hard

[flat rune]

The alphabet is hard

But it's like a russian who learns english

He needs to learn the latine alphabet

but ty

[boreal ingot]

yea my friend is learning the Arabic alphabet. She's finding it hard but she thinks it looks nice for some reason

[flat rune]

Btw what's ur native language?

[boreal ingot]

Wait, you have a space before the question mark even in Arabic 😭

[boreal ingot]

It's Arabic

I just suck at it

[flat rune]

oh ok

[boreal ingot]

What language is your name in?

[flat rune]

Because in french there's a space before the question mark

[flat rune]

Japanese

[boreal ingot]

I did not know that

that's interesting

In English and Arabic there isn't one

[boreal ingot]

Do you learn it?

[flat rune]

No

[boreal ingot]

oh alrighty

What does your name mean though?

You should know that :p

[flat rune]

Skulldagger

[boreal ingot]

Oh, so that's 'skull dagger' but in japanese?

I see

[flat rune]

yes

[boreal ingot]

the 'whence' clause is esential to the meaning of the sentence

I don't think it should be parenthesised

It specifies which Latin word I mean

If it were to be removed, the sentence wouldn't mean the same thing

you'd ask, 'which Latin word?'

Both it and the Latin word come from the same PIE word, which was feminine.

Yes but it doesn't mean the same thing

the 'whence' introduces esential information. It's a restrective relative clause

You have no idea what Latin word I mean anymore

without the 'whence' cluase

by removing the 'whence ...' you are changing the meaning of the sentence. The 'whence' clause is essential to the meaning and thereby a restrictive clause. Restrictive relative clauses are not offset by commas

My original sentence specifies what word I mean, the new sentence does not

I said what changed

multiple times

As I said, I don't see any reason for it to be wrong, but I'd like to double-check

[bitter hill]

Because one specifies a particular word, while the other doesn't and needs additional context

[boreal ingot]

Yea, in this case, both 'it' and specifically the word whence [x] came come from the same PIE word. Not 'it' and any other Latin word

[bitter hill]

Not in isolation. Without the relative clause, you need previous context to understand what the particular Latin word is

[boreal ingot]

It's not about how grammtically correct it is, it's about the missing semantic information

without the 'whence' information is missing

I used it to mean 'from which'. It's a well-estableshed usage as far as I know

'wherefrom', if you'd like to put it that way. Though that feels much older

The sentence when issolated and even in context is missing the needed information without that 'whence' clause. The 'the' implies that it's some specific word, but it still isn't clear which word is meant

Without it you don't know what word I'm talking about. That's pretty esential to the meaning lol.

The boy came.
and
The boy that we gave cookies the other day came.

are pretty different, no?

The Latin word and this word both derive from the same PIE word.
and
The Latin word whence [x] come and this word both derive from the same PIE word.
are just as different

If 'the Latin word' refered to a word which was already introduced and spoken about as the word 'whence [x] come', then that 'whence [x] comes' would be uneeded, and could be put between commas or round brackets or be removed. But without earlier explination, 'whence [x] comes' is essential to specifying which word is meant, and so cannot be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence

it depends on if 'the boy' is ambigious

If there are multiple boys I could be talking about, commas must not be used, if it's just extra information and you know what boy I mean, commas should be used and in American English the 'that' should become 'which'

In my sentence you couldn't know what word I'm talking about without the 'whence'

Here is how wiki explains it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_clause

[bitter hill]

Nobody is disagreeing with that. In isolation, the information conveyed between the sentence with and without the relative clause is different. Assuming there's no previous context established for identifying the particular Latin word, it is most certainly not nonessential. Like in your example

"The man who lives next door won the lottery."
"The man won the lottery."
The basic meaning of the sentence is changed by the omission of the relative clause.
The man =/= The man who lives next door

"Tim Smith, who lives next door, won the lottery."
"Tim Smith won the lottery."
Here, with or without the relative clause, the basic meaning is maintained.
Tim Smith = Tim Smith

Let's structure the Latin sentence with a similar form:

"The Latin word whence all the feminine words for 'ship' in the Romance languages originate comes from a PIE word."
"The Latin word comes from a PIE word."
The Latin word whence all the feminine words for 'ship' originate =/= The Latin word

Oops I replied to the wrong message

[boreal ingot]

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/grammar/which-vs-that/#:~:text=The easiest way to remember,it did not%2C use which.

Which introduces nonrestrictive clauses, whereas restrictive clauses are introduced by that.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/when-to-use-that-and-which

That and which can both introduce a restrictive clause, i.e., a clause that can't be removed without changing the sentence's meaning substantially or making the sentence incomplete or difficult to understand

Which is the word used to introduce a nonrestrictive clause, i.e., a clause that adds information but isn't essential for understanding the sentence's basic idea

https://www.dictionary.com/e/that-vs-which/

Luckily there’s an easy way to remember whether to use that or which. If the relative clause contains information that is not essential to the meaning of the sentence, and is also preceded by a comma, a dash, or parenthesis, it’s probably nonrestrictive, so use which. If not, odds are it’s restrictive, so use that.

However, the above distinction is a rule of formal American English, and is not as strictly observed in British English or in informal English of any type.

[bitter hill]

Well it's there in the Wikipedia page:

To determine whether a relative clause is restrictive or non-restrictive a simple test can be applied. If the basic meaning of the sentence (the thought) is not changed by removing the relative clause, the relative clause is not essential to the basic thought and is non-restrictive. Alternatively, if the essential meaning of the thought is disturbed, the relative clause is restrictive.

[boreal ingot]

This explains it very well ^ tbh

You don't need to read the entire thing. I quoted the important parts. It's very easy to learn more about this distinction by looking up 'What's the difference between "Which" and "that"?' It's a distinction that's mostly present in AmE, as the last quote says

I gave you the link

third quote ?

'which' can be used in place of 'that' in British English, but not the other way around. I'm sure your native intution feels how wrong this is:

Microsoft headquarters, that is nearby, is really big.

If you say so, Miss. I think sufficient evidence has been provided for why 'whence ... come' shouldn't be offset by commas, so I don't think there is any point in further arguing about it

[boreal ingot]

It's as simple as 'The Latin word' and 'the Latin word whence these words come' not being the same. You may be inclined to puase there, (it is a pretty long sentence, after all), but commas shouldn't be there unless the clause is purely there to add extra information, which, in this case, it isn't. I don't see what you mean by 'malformed constructions'; the sentence seems entierly grammatical. There are rules to commas. Yes, they may be used stylistically to force a certain rhythem, but you can't just use them willy-nilly wherever you think they'd fit. Follow some style guideline or common rule.

Wikipedia defines restrictiveness thus:

In semantics, a modifier is said to be restrictive (or defining) if it restricts the reference of its head

'whence the feminine words for 'ship' in the Romance languages come' certainly restricts the scope of the head, 'the Latin word', from any relevant Latin word to one from which [x] come.

It obviously falls within the definition of a restrictive modifier and therefore shouldn't be offset, no matter how it sounds. Sure, informally you can use commas as you please, whatever feels right will do, but you shouldn't just go with your gut formally.

As for my usage of 'whence', grammatically it's fine. 'Whence' is a one-to-one match with 'from which'. As for how it's typically phrased, I'm not sure, but I have seen 'whence' used in etymology sections of Wiktionary.

I wouldn't agree either of your sentences is natural. In fact, I'd argue both are ungrammatical. It seems you don't really know how to use 'whence' at all. 'which/that from whence' makes no sense.
I have seen people use 'whence' as though it meant 'where' (and so say things like 'go back from whence you came'), but it in actuality means 'where from' and 'which from' (i.e., the sentence should be 'go back whence you came'), but this 'mistake', if you will call it that, is very old, so I don't think one could call it wrong outright.

Neither of your sentences is natural

[cloud badge]

I agree about the 2nd being more understandable. It could use a lot more punctuation too, but aside from that, the 'that' makes me think the latin word they're talking about is 'that'. Without the which, its a super confusing read.

If i was to try and make it more clear id write it like this:
Both it, and the latin word from where all the romance languages feminine words for 'ship' origonated, come from the same PIE word, which was also femenine.

Without a rewording, there should definitely at least be a comma between both 'come's

But rewording one would be nice

[boreal ingot]

You have yet to prove that the 'whence ... come' bit is non-essential while I have already explained to you how it is. The 'whence' already starts its own relative clause, why would you start one with 'that/which' before it? I can't properly address your sentence when it's flawed like that, yet you use it as though it proves that the relative clause is non-restrictive

It's neither, becuase your sentence is not correct

You used the sentences here to show that, going by the 'that/which' test, the cluase is non-essential. You said that if the test is acccurateand so the clause is non-essential, my justification for why it's essential is flawed.

(1) Both it and the Latin word that from whence all the feminine words for 'ship' in the Romance languages come come from the same PIE word, which was feminine.
(2) Both it and the Latin word which from whence all the feminine words for 'ship' in the Romance languages come come from the same PIE word, which was feminine.

The test does work, as far as I'm aware, and the clause is restrective. Your sentences prove nothing becuase they aren't correct.

I do not. Don't purposefully misconstrue my words please

[cloud badge]

Getting a bit heated in here, we can have a civil convo, its ok to disagree, English rules aren't set in stone, many are regional or personal preference

[boreal ingot]

You're actually the one who didn't respond to any point I made. You've yet to explain how the clauase is non-essential. If you'd like me to answer a question, please state it clearly.

You also misused a test to prove your point

If you don't want to properly explain how the clause isn't restrective, then, yes, there is no point in further arguing. I can see you're only going off of the 'vibes' of the sentence. You used your native intuition to claim a sentence is better than another

I don't think you read my message lol:

... yes, there is no point in further arguing.

You're welcome :)

[cloud badge]

Also, while i don't think whence is ever necessary, i like seeing it, so if u can use it right, i think it's cool c:

Hmmm, i know some of those words

[verbal heron]

It's alright, even my classmates at school can't help but insert at least one english word in their sentences while speaking our mother toungue. However, I have developed a strong vocabulary in my native language. I either speak pure english (actually I try to do that sometimes though I fail) or my native language, I rarely use english word while I am speaking my mother language.

[boreal ingot]

yea, it's an issue for me when Im using more than one and then getting asked what I mean lol

But one is not too bad when it happens

[verbal heron]

That how grammar reinforces the points you want to maintain

[boreal ingot]

today I had to explain 'gamble' and 'metaphorical' cuz I couldn't translate them. And before I have had to explain 'physical', 'linguistics', 'polysemic', 'communication', and other stuff

It's always the hard-to-explain words that I have to explain

Id say them in Arabic if I could and avoid this explination stuff smh

[boreal ingot]

Eh I suck at actually reinforceing them

[verbal heron]

Ah that would be tiring, however. I know Assamese (my mother language) equivalents for all the words you have mentioned

[verbal heron]

Did you explain the meanings of those words in English?

[boreal ingot]

that would probably confuse the people Im talking to more lol

the worst one to explain was 'preception' lol

[verbal heron]

I don't think so. You have been able to support your grammatical points so well. But I think you may start practicing restating the points

[boreal ingot]

Even ploysemic? No one I asked could find a one-word translation for that one in Arabic

[verbal heron]

Lol

[verbal heron]

You can just simply make one

[boreal ingot]

what do you mean?

[verbal heron]

Doesn't polysemic refer to the fact of having multiple meanings?

[boreal ingot]

yea

how would you 'make' a word for it in your language

[verbal heron]

You don't need to render that to Arabic directly

The focus should be on poly, and on meaning

[boreal ingot]

yea, I did specifically say one-word translation'

[verbal heron]

The equivalent word for multiple in my language is 'bohu'

and we refer to having any meaning as 'orthok'

[boreal ingot]

I could say 'many-meanings-ed' ig, but it would be two words, not one. You can't really translate 'polysemic' into 1 arabic word afaik

[verbal heron]

so bohuorthok would work

[boreal ingot]

oh

Is it a compound word?

[acoustic geyser]

Are adjective clause and relative clause the same thing?

[little glade]

where is the question btw?

[midnight finch]

How to learn the pronunciation of "just" in "I'm just trying to look after you" in this video : https://youtu.be/5CB36S2Yizk?t=18

it's at (0:18)

How is it called when people say "just" like this?

[signal shell]

Wow, we really do pronounce it like "js"

I don't know the word for such hyper lazy pronunciations like this

Although, it's perfectly fine to fully enunciate your words in this sentence. He's just being informal and lazy.

@midnight finch

[native flare]

Question: Are idioms more widely used in texts (books) than vocally?

[signal shell]

I can't say for sure, but there are certainly forms of writing where some authors love to overdo it with idioms

[tidal lily]

I think you can observe the same with your native language as well.

Very few are good with remembering and using it in daily conservation. Although some idioms are just very typical that everyone uses em

[native flare]

Thanks for the answer Mr. Ross.

[native flare]

Good point. Thanks bhai ✨

[flat rune]

" Good things come to those who wait " Is used, also " better late than nevee " is used

[signal shell]

For once, I have a real question for y'all

What is the meaning of the phrase "up in it" in this context?:

Brrrah brraaah! I am Hercules Mulligan,
Up in it, lovin’ it, yes I heard ya mother said “Come again?”

[verbal heron]

Yes it is

[verbal heron]

It holds true at present I think. It is not always possible for one to be able to infer the meaning of an idiom from context, which is why one refers to dictionaries and expose oneself to various genres, and the dictionaries check how idioms are used in a particular situation, based on such construction these are defined in the dictionaries. And the writers' works mirror the usage of language. Coming back to the original, they are used more in the texts as I see it. It's because a book will capture so many accounts and details.

But ig in the languages I speak, we use idioms more infrequently than in English

[boreal ingot]

Thas why I often type it like 'jus' informally lmao

[boreal ingot]

I don't think those are idioms

I believe they're proverbs

[boreal ingot]

My first thought without context was that it's something sexual. Here's what Genius says

[signal shell]

thanks for this!

i'm not surprised to see it has some sexual tone to it

[boreal ingot]

You're welcome!

[signal rain]

What does 'shall' mean?

@flat rune

[flat rune]

It means should

[signal rain]

That's it?

How is it different from should?

[flat rune]

Yes just a little different in tone of the advice

[boreal ingot]

?

[flat rune]

Shall is a little stronger and more formal

[boreal ingot]

It's closer to will than should tbh

[flat rune]

In some contexts but no it’s not the meaning

[signal rain]

Is it future tense of 'should'? Or 'will'

[flat rune]

No

[signal rain]

Oh

Then?

[boreal ingot]

Give an example of it being used like should

[signal rain]

Yeah pls

[flat rune]

Shall i help you carry those bags?

I shall inform you soon as possible.

Here are some examples

[cloud badge]

Its not really sexual, it just means interested and like, enjoying something. Like how 'im into it' and 'im all about it' means interested. If youre all up in it ill think youre doing something you're super invested in and like, not caring about anything else for the time being.

[flat rune]

Also it means will in some contexts like “i shall get going now”

It still means should too

But can be replaced with will

So no shall doesn’t actually mean will

@signal rain
Was that clear mate?

[signal rain]

Does it mean 'I should get going'?

[flat rune]

Exactly

[signal rain]

Or 'I will get going'?

[boreal ingot]

Shall has 2 main meanings. Either a more confident and certain 'will'
'we shall win!'
'You shall not pass'
Or a way to state a rule
'Thou shall not steal'
'One shall not kill one's fellow man'

It's extremely formal in that second sense, more like a god or king making a rule, while in the first sense it's a bit less formal, but still very dated.

It can also be used in questions to be very extremely polite
'Shall we dance?'
'Shall we go to the ball?'

In the past, it was used without a sense of confidence to talk about the future, but nowadays the formality and rarity of the word has made it become much more certain-sounding

[flat rune]

Three words here can give the same meaning that you are leaving now

[boreal ingot]

The first is just a polite offer/request, the second is future tense

[cloud badge]

Shall it's kind of just a mishmash of will and should. Its more passive than should. Should is like you have some pressing reason to do something but shall is like, i think i should do something, just because i want to, so i will

[flat rune]

Yes exactly

[flat rune]

You’re totally correct here

[flat rune]

Oh ok

[signal rain]

So is it Certain sounding or passive?

[signal rain]

Because @cloud badge said passive

[boreal ingot]

It is like 'should' in that 'should' is its past tense. So in reported speech, 'shall' becomes 'should'.

For example, @signal rain,

Someone says

I shall be leaving soon

You would report that as

She said she should be leaving soon ten minutes ago

[signal shell]

i believe "will" and "shall" can both be used for the future tense, where "will" expresses more of an intent to do something and "shall" expresses an obligation or desire to do something (similar to how "should" is used)

[cloud badge]

It is certain, its like you're saying 'i will' do something, but i will is more passive then i should.

Because should implies pressure from something besides just someone's own will

[boreal ingot]

Ngl the learner is probably extremely confused all these explanations

[signal rain]

Thank you gus @flat rune @boreal ingot @cloud badge @signal shell

[boreal ingot]

[cloud badge]

Maybe it's easier to just think shall is between will and should, and most people don't say it these days.

[signal rain]

when in school some kids used to ask "shall I come in?"

[cloud badge]

Asking a teacher? Or like, asking themselves out loud if they want to or not? Cuz it can be both ways, the former meaning should, and the latter meaning will.

[signal rain]

Asking teacher

[cloud badge]

Like 'hmm, shall i come inside, or do i want to go play more..' would be the will version. But oh ok yeah, it's used both ways but still somewhat rare these days

[upper sundial]

Hi People, im new and searching for native British speakers for my research project. Are there any native speakers who are willing to answer some questions about the food of the cafeterias at secondary schools? It can be written and spoken would be inferior. Thanks in advance!

[native flare]

Thanks for letting me know. ✨

[serene plinth]

The most used n most appropriate one is ‘May I come in’

Shall isn't used much in daily speech. It's used more for showing more determination in doing smth

In today's time basically

[upper cradle]

what are the fundamentals into writing an essay?

[signal rain]

Thank you

[acoustic geyser]

Is this correct?
She is the only child of Mr.Nam to be the principal of this school

[verbal heron]

I don't understand how the refined version is correct

I do not agree with the third point, since the principal will belong to “this school”, I believe (that) “the” should not be omitted from there

[alpine gyro]

Can someone help with this

I’m picking A because it makes like a parallel structure

Require / struggle

[boreal ingot]

Vampire is by no means a beginner. I have no idea why they chose the beginner role, but they're at least upper intermediate to advanced

Not to say they don't make mistakes, but I would trust their intuition to an extent

I don't disagree that removing the article is more natural there, but I do want it to be known to you that they're pretty good at English

[boreal ingot]

A is the only one that sounds right. I would be inclined to choose D if 'require' were 'required', so I think your theory about matching the tenses might be correct

yea they don't talk like a beginner at all imo

[boreal ingot]

?

I'm not lol

They don't write like someone who's A1-A2

A1-A2 is beginner

[frozen breach]

What do I need to improve to move from A2 to B1?

[flat rune]

Can i use the term “did” instead “simple past”?

I loved ou i did love?

[boreal ingot]

yea

'I did love you' and 'I loved you' are both past simple

the first is more emphatic though

[alpine gyro]

Tysm guys

How about this one? Could it be A? As well?

Can’t be B because it’s not introducing anything related to the first sentence ,right?

[tidal lily]

Can you send the link please

Is that A level ?

I want to reach that level as well 😀

[alpine gyro]

Oh it’s not A level it’s SAT I’ll send u similar practices hold on

[boreal ingot]

I'm not sure this emphatic tense makes sense. Looking it up, it seems when you use 'do' and 'did' before another verb you're apparently usinng the emphatic tense, but 'Did you love him?' 'Do you love him?' 'You did not love him.' and 'You do not love him.' are all not emphatic if you don't stress the do.
If anything, 'do' is acting like 'will' and 'shall' do. It's giving us what time the verb happaned (past), but also has an extra connotation (determined or certain in the case of 'shall', emphatic in the case of 'did'), and surely no one would call 'We shall prevail' the 'determined future tense'?

I don't think 'empahticness' is even a mtter of tense, it's more of a verb mood. So one could say 'do' acts as a marker of the emphatic mood on the verb and is then conjugated for tense and person

I don't have any studies to back it up, but when thinking about it, it doesn't seem like 'do/did love' are entire tenses unto themselves

[alpine gyro]

Could this be B?

This is also B?

[boreal ingot]

I'd agree with Riidefi on A

[boreal ingot]

Yeah, for both of those I'd go with B

[boreal ingot]

What's the difference between mediate and arbitrate?

Right now I'm thinking mediate is going into an argument between people to try and figure something out for them, while arbitrate is being called upon by people, so you can authoritatively settle things

Is my understanding correct?

If not, then what is the difference?

[alpine gyro]

Can someone help me on this pls

I’m inclined towards C but I’m not sure

If someone has a different opinion could they explain

[fallow saddle]

I think it will be D

Since the former sentence emphasizes the importance of the artist so continuing it, D makes the most sense to me

[alpine gyro]

How does it emphasize the importance of the artist I’m still so confused

[alpine gyro]

.

[fallow saddle]

The previous sentence was talking about elvis's importance

[alpine gyro]

Also doesn’t “ti that end” mean “to reach that goal”

[fallow saddle]

To that end from my understanding means because of this basically

[alpine gyro]

Thank you so much for ur explanation

[boreal ingot]

thanks

[frozen ore]

Speech consists not merely of sounds but …. that follow various structural patterns

(A) of organized sound patterns

(B) organized sound patterns

(C) that sound organized patterns are

(D) in organizing sound patterns

Guyss i need your help (whoever who’s well-educated in english)

[boreal ingot]

Where did you get this question from? The sentence sounds odd no matter which option you choose

[frozen ore]

that's the official toefl question

[boreal ingot]

I think the only correct one is A, but the sentence doesn't sound very natural

[frozen ore]

Why do we need to put preposition “of” again?

[boreal ingot]

Yes

We need it

Oh wait, you asked why

[frozen ore]

isn't that redundant? Like saying “she’s not only a doctor, but she’s a writer also” instead of saying “she’s not only a doctor, but also a writer”

[boreal ingot]

Try to get rid of the first phrase and the 'but'. Without the 'of', it doesn't make much sense

Speech consists not merely of sounds but organised sound patterns.
vvv
Speech consists organised sound patterns.

[frozen ore]

shouldn’t it be “Speech consists of organized sound patterns” even though we don’t put prepo of again? because the prepo of it’s already there

[boreal ingot]

In the case of your first sentence, both parts stand on thier own and don't modify anything.

Not including the 'of' is like not repeating the 'a' in your second sentence

She's not only a doctor, but also writer

Remove the first part and you see it's wrong

She's also writer

You need it to still be grammatical if the first part is removed

Both conjoins should be valid complements, one doesn't make up for the other

[frozen ore]

aight then, thank you so much girl. I really appreciate that🤩

[boreal ingot]

Well, the 'of' is part of the first phrase only. Using square brackets like this might help you see it:

Speech consists [not merely of sounds], but [of organised sound patterns].

Look at the two phrases the conjunction 'but' connects, each has its own preposition that is part of it, so if you remove the phrase, you remove the preposition too. That means each one needs its own, they don't share the same one.

And example where they do share one would be this:

It consists of [the things you've been gathering] and [one secret ingredient, which you've never heard of before]

Here, the 'and' connects the two noun phrases, and then the whole connected thing acts as the object of the preposition 'of'

[boreal ingot]

You're welcome! Always glad to help if I can

[frozen ore]

youre such a kind person, thank you again for explaining it so clearly

[frozen ore]

so it should be “A” right, as Scella said before

no i didn’t mean to do that

what are you talking aboutttttt, i have no intetion of being rudeeeeee

you are the real meanie one because you said I’m a real meanie🫵🏻

well I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, I didn't mean it

let’s go i can do karate and boxing

im really sorry “R-I-I-D-E-F-I”

no, you’re absolutely right👍🏻. Everything that comes out of your mouth is right, everything that you type is right👍🏻

from the way she acts, she’s definitely a woman👍🏻

ofc i can do that for you mate

hi the n word✋🏻, nice to meet you

[boreal ingot]

they really didnt say that they just wanted confirmation that it's A 😭 I doubt they dont appreciate the help

[frozen ore]

couldn’t agree more

[boreal ingot]

this like twisted Michael's words 100% lol. I don't think anyone meant anything bad. Should just chill. People tend to want to double check when someone gives them an answer. You were available as someone for them to double check with

I read the whole convo after you told me scroll down

[boreal ingot]

^ this comment was not okay

but initially they didnt seem to mean any harm

what is 'that' exactly? That they wanted confirmation? I mean asking 'so it's A, like [x] said?' is pretty much asking for confirmation

I don't respond when I'm not sure what the comment refers to

[frozen ore]

ok girls stop arguing, i’m the wrong one. I’m so sorry

[boreal ingot]

I don't believe I do that, but if you think so, I can't do much about that

[boreal ingot]

you jus came to ask an English question and got wrapped up in what sems to be the daily argument 😭

cuz you were beeing needlessly rude to them when they only had an English question

I dont do that all the time, but I did ignroe that message this time. I'll admit

[boreal ingot]

if you'd like to clarify that message, feel free, but I dont care much anymore

Cool lol

Idk what you want

It's only natrural to respond to stuff. This is a public chat

Idk, youre supposed to be helping thme with English, they ask you a question, so you start calling them rude. Seems like you're the rude one here. But neither you nor I can speak on their behalf when it comes to what i rude to them and what isn't

You can block someone in 4 clicks girl

[frozen ore]

i’m happy that you both have stopped arguing

[boreal ingot]

same lol

[flat rune]

Wow wow what happened ?

Did i miss something ?

[boreal ingot]

Nothing important

do you have a question?

[flat rune]

Yeah i have one : What is rhe difference between Luckily and Fortunately ?

[boreal ingot]

ngl I can't think of any

aybe someone else can, but to me they seem to be the same

[frozen ore]

You can use both interchangeably, but when it comes to written english, its better to use fortunately

[vale wyvern]

Is it a double negative?

[boreal ingot]

Well, those are two negatives, but they do actually equal a positive, unlike how in other cases they can equal a negative lol

[vale wyvern]

I am confused

[boreal ingot]

I ain't said nothing
^ double negative, but it means 'I didn't say anything' (aka, negative meaning)

Nothing wouldn't be given
^ double negative, but it means 'Anything/Everything would be given' (positive meaning)

normally 2 negatives result in a positive, but informally you see two negatives making a negative, like the first sentence

[flat rune]

Ty @frozen ore and @boreal ingot

[boreal ingot]

np

[marsh yacht]

what means when someone's voice has "an edge"?

[crimson vortex]

Hello, can anyone tell the difference between "drip off" and "drip down"?

[marsh yacht]

i think drop down is more like something falling down, and drop off is taking something at somewhere

[crimson vortex]

"drop" and "drip" are different words

But i think your logic is right here anyway

But I won't to make sure I understand these words rcorrectly

[verbal heron]

Luck, and fortune both are abstract things that cannot be controlled by humans. These two are often perceived to be caused by a deity. Both these two have the connotations of happenstance—beyond the confines of humans. Well, that's enough of a jest; coming back to the original question, as luckily and fortunately are ideas that convey barely any sense of seriousness, these are, in fact, interchangeable. Like the others have stated, luck is slighlty informal while fortunately leans toward a somewhat formal tone as well as adds emphasis to the importance of the event.

[verbal heron]

It could presumably refer to a harsh voice, or anger or anguishment

[verbal heron]

Exemplification can always help you understand, and state your queries better

[crimson vortex]

"Rain droplets were dripping off the wall" vs "Rain droplets were dripping down the wall"

[crimson vortex]

You suggest that I should've attached some examples?

[crimson vortex]

If so, then

[verbal heron]

Yes

[verbal heron]

But why do you think both would convey different ideas?

However, I can't shed on light on this, wait for the arrival of others

[serene plinth]

I apologise for my poor handwriting tho

[crimson vortex]

So dripping down refers to going down vertical or declined surface and eventually falling off it, whereas dripping off is just falling off?

[serene plinth]

In drip off, you'd understand the droplets leave the surface... On the other hand in drip down, the droplets stay in touch with surface just move down

[crimson vortex]

So we can say they are flowing down?

[serene plinth]

You wouldn't visualise flow and drip the same way

[verbal heron]

Flowing may not have the connotations of mere drops

[serene plinth]

And you wouldn't say a mere few droplets are flowing down

[crimson vortex]

Okay, I got it

Thanks

[verbal heron]

Can't we perceive that as vast amout of water going downwards?

[serene plinth]

Flow down? Yes

[verbal heron]

Alright

[flat rune]

Ty @verbal heron

[gaunt mango]

Personally I view “flowing” more as how the water acts versus the quantity of it

Small amounts of water can flow as well

Flow just describes the smooth action of the water

[marsh yacht]

thank you

[verbal heron]

np

@gaunt mango I believe that's clearer to me now, thanks

[verbal heron]

Welcome, however, it is better to get approval from natives as they may have command over the language

[flat rune]

tysm

[gaunt mango]

Right. That’s why I said small amounts, not a single or a few molecules.

[flat rune]

ty

[cloud badge]

Luckily is something good that happened that was against the odds. Fortunately is something good that happened that benefited you a lot. Usually there's a lot of overlap with the two terms but sometines you can be one without being the other.

[graceful robin]

morning guys

[rapid bison]

"a number of water"? (joke)

[serene plinth]

I'm sorry what?

[serene plinth]

I'm sorry but what is wrong with saying a vast amount of water?

[limpid flame]

i dont think theres anything wrong with “a vast amount of water”

it makes sense

[serene plinth]

My point exactly

So I was just curious lol

[limpid flame]

i mean its vague but still people would use it to describe a lot of water

[serene plinth]

It's not incorrect so I don't see the need to correct them

[limpid flame]

idk man i dont think when i speak

[boreal ingot]

But can mere drops of water flow?

Amount is used for uncountable nouns; number is used for countable nouns. @gentle wigeon, using 'amount' there was fine

Also, 'amount of water' is listed as a collocation of 'amount' by Cambridge:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/example/english/amount-of-water

They also list 'amount of blood', 'amount of fluid', 'amount of liquid', and 'amount of mercury', so 'amount' is obviously used with liquids

[boreal ingot]

Oh I hadn't yet read this when I asked you my question. Sorry for the bother

[boreal ingot]

Ops, wrong ping, sorry vampol. @verbal heron

[flat rune]

How can I understand '' bounce off'' and glance off''

[boreal ingot]

'Nonstandard', it's very obviously standard lol. It's listed as a collocation. Further, a native and another learner have already told you it sounds fine. Your opinion that 'amount of water' is nonstandard has no basis and you haven't provided any sources that state it either

You did before your edit, but anyhow, you haven't really given any reason for it not to work. 'amount' is used with noncount nouns, it works with water

Yea all three sound fine. I don't know why you're making a distinction where there isn't one :p

Lol, I have no reason to gaslight

My intuition as a learner came from intaking English content made by natives for years. So while it's not perfect it's sufficiently close to that of a native. Arguing that you're a native and therefore correct is pretty stupid. Provide something that claims 'amount of water' isn't idiomatic. You've yet to give any sources that back that claim up. You shouldn't correct learners when there is nothing to correct. Vampire's sentence was fine. I've given you two reasons why 'amount' is fine there. 'amount' is used with noncount nouns and water is one. And 'amount of water" is a collocation according to Cambridge. You can see Ngram also shows 'vast amounts of water' is much more used than 'vast volume of water' (first pic). Without 'vast' that still holds (second pic).

If you don't want to address any of those points then I feel there is no good reason for your correction to be justified.

Before the edit, you were simply repeating what you said yesterday. 'is a real issue in this chat' obviously indicates this isn't the first time you think this. After the edit you changed it to 'weird-sounding'.
I don't care if you went back on your words of it being nonstandard, but don't try to make it seem like I'm gaslighting anyone. I responded to what I saw pre-edit, that's all

All that's been said is true but none of it refers to this distinction you're making between 'amount of water' and 'volume of water' lol. It's like you want to overwhelm your interlocutor with text without actually acknowledging anything they've said

I think this is a waste of time

Fixing a typo is 100% fine, but you don't need to say I'm gaslighting for not seeing that you changed a word and responding to the pre-edit comment

I can see your point being '"amount" is used for water but "volume" is what's supposed to be used in exact language', but you still haven't provided anything that supports using 'volume' over 'amount'. I read that whole textwall, and I already know of teh distinctions between 'amount' and 'number' and 'fewer' and 'less' that you talked about and of how they're not always abided by in informal speech

So will you explain why 'volume' is preferable to 'amount' there and give actual sources?

[warped hemlock]

I haven't seen my uncle ..... as long as I can remember
Since or for?

[flat rune]

I would say since

In this case

[warped hemlock]

Hmm

[flat rune]

To me it seems more logical to put since

[round jungle]

"For" is correct here, not "since".

"Since" means "after a specified point in time", such as "since December" or "since I turned 18".

"For" is used with durations, like "for six months" or "for most of my life".

You could say "I haven't seen my uncle since I was very young", but not "since as long as I can remember", because "as long as I can remember" is a duration, not a specific point in time.

[flat rune]

Ty

For correcting me

[warped hemlock]

I want to learn about future tense

Future simple*

It's first time to study it

[verbal heron]

amount works perfectly there, and you will be regarded as pretentious if you keep mainting a formal tone in casual contexts. However, I have no objection to agreeing with a seemingly native speaker, regardless of whether the data they come up with are substantiated or unsubstantiated

Hello

[verbal heron]

I believe the "here" you have mentioned in the sentence has a broader connotation than the usual one, and, your academic background has barely anything to do with blending yourself into different situations. Besides, the latter part of your sentence hints at an attitude of superciliousness. I shall be looking forward to your attempting to alleviate any feelings of condescension.
Greetings anyway

Huh

[frail river]

I have a question regarding English language

Is there a way to split a word into syllables?

Any word, that is

[spiral lynx]

Yes

[frail river]

Awesome

[spiral lynx]

For example

Present
Pre sent

Syllable is the part that has one vowel
C v c
Consonant vowel consonant
Or ccv consonant consonant vowel

Depends

[frail river]

Does this method work for all English words?

[spiral lynx]

Split
Is one syllable

Vowels detect how many syllables you have

[spiral lynx]

Give me a word

[frail river]

Through

[spiral lynx]

One vowel, one syllable

[flat rune]

War

[frail river]

@spiral lynxThorougly

[spiral lynx]

Ou is pronounced one vowel if you transcribe it to phonetic alphabet

[spiral lynx]

Tho roughly

[flat rune]

intense tea sipping.

[frail river]

So there does exist a systematic method to detect and separate syllables?

[flat rune]

Hi guys

[spiral lynx]

One syllable

[spiral lynx]

You have to study phonetics

[frail river]

If I would enter a computer program the word "thoroughly", it would spit out "tho-rou-ghly"

[spiral lynx]

I separate them depending on the vowels in the word

[frail river]

I have a little project going on

[spiral lynx]

Hmm

[frail river]

I want an exact systematic method to separate a word into syllables

[spiral lynx]

Ly is a suffix

[frail river]

This is where computer science meets linguistics

I am excellent and computer science, but I lack the knowledge of phonetics

I want an exact method to separate ANY English word into syllables

[spiral lynx]

Idk if the teacher is still here , there was a teacher of phonetics here

[flat rune]

You're teaching phonetics ?

[spiral lynx]

I told you ,they follow the C V C method

[flat rune]

@spiral lynx I need to ask this:

The fuck is phonetics?

[spiral lynx]

Consonant,vowel, consonant

[flat rune]

I'd remove the 2nd word

[spiral lynx]

A e i u o

[frail river]

So whenever there is a vowel following by a consonant, its a syllable?

[spiral lynx]

Yees

[frail river]

pho-ne-tics

[spiral lynx]

Either before or after

[flat rune]

Oh right

[spiral lynx]

It's complicated when they add the suffix

[frail river]

drea-mt
tho-rou-gh
pi-nea-pple

did i get it right?

[spiral lynx]

Cuz there are the ends'' ation, tion, ion, on,ic, cal, cally, ..''

[spiral lynx]

No

Another tip

Dreamt

Is one vowel

Ea

[flat rune]

As long as you know how to say them you needn't to know the vowel or idk

[spiral lynx]

If you find a word that has vowel vowel then it's one sound so one syllable

[frail river]

A computer has no idea how to say words or what words mean

[flat rune]

ah

[frail river]

This was an example of how a computer would do it

given the cvc rule

[flat rune]

Why a computer

[spiral lynx]

Pi neapple

[frail river]

As I said earlier, I have a programming project

[flat rune]

ok

[frail river]

neapple is one syllable?

[spiral lynx]

E at the end sometimes is not pronounced when u do the transcription

[flat rune]

And you need help

[spiral lynx]

Lemme show you the transcription

[frail river]

yes

alot of help

[flat rune]

Which words

[frail river]

Every English word there is

[flat rune]

No one is able to do that

[frail river]

about 180000 words

[flat rune]

Even a native wouldn't be able

[frail river]

A computer program will given a sufficient algorithm

[flat rune]

give*

Not given

[frail river]

That

is why I am asking for help

To create an algorithm

[flat rune]

yeah but No one will be able to help you with ur 180k words

[frail river]

That will analyze the word and detect where it's separated into syllables

[frail river]

My program will help me once I teach it how to do it

[flat rune]

oh ok

[frail river]

actually english has 400K words

[flat rune]

Good luck to find them out

[frail river]

And each words can be separated into syllables in theory

[flat rune]

the-o-ry

[frail river]

It can even be words that don't exist yet

[spiral lynx]

I checked
It's pine apple
P ai n a p al

So 3 syllables
Dépends on the sounds you hear

[frail river]

Like Remkueka or Phazalieda

[spiral lynx]

I can't explain it clearly cuz it's more than this

[frail river]

Great

I personally do know how to separate a word into syllables based on the feeling of it, I have been using English for more than 13 years

[spiral lynx]

Cuz one one vowel can be two sounds
One syllable can consist of two sounds or more

[frail river]

Exactly

[flat rune]

I forgot what vowel and syllabe are

[frail river]

I want to include all those inconsistencies in a program that I make

[spiral lynx]

There is app that could help you of you want

[flat rune]

I learnt that when i was 6

[spiral lynx]

It transcribes words

[frail river]

An app won't help me, because I am writing my own app

[flat rune]

It'll

[frail river]

for this purpose

[spiral lynx]

No , to separate syllables i mean

[spiral lynx]

This is a great purpose

[frail river]

I just want to know the method of how to do it

CVC method does work for certain words

[spiral lynx]

Will be very helpful

[flat rune]

You want us to give you every syllabe etc for every word in english ?

[frail river]

But it's too inconsistent

[spiral lynx]

I think you have to ask a specialist or a teacher about that

[frail river]

I want a method to extract the syllables from every English word and every word possible to ever make

[flat rune]

Just google is his friend

[frail river]

I tried to google and found very little info

[flat rune]

There's no method

[spiral lynx]

I learnt phonetics three years ago but never really was interested
After joining this server i got interested

[spiral lynx]

It's the transcription

[flat rune]

Either a word is composed by one syllabe or another word may be composed by 3 syllabes

[spiral lynx]

You transcribe to the IPA

[frail river]

@distant hazel Can you help us here? We have a rather peculiar problem

[frail river]

Yes

[spiral lynx]

International phonetics alphabets

[flat rune]

A transcription

[frail river]

I wouldn't think it's that difficult to find a method that works

but it is

English is really inconsistent language

[verbal heron]

in terms of pronunciation?

[frail river]

yes pronounciation too

but we are talking about syllables

[flat rune]

There's no method

It's like in spanish french etc

[frail river]

Can you send me a list of all ends

[flat rune]

Either you know either you don't

[frail river]

So it's practically impossible?

[verbal heron]

-al too

[flat rune]

It isn't but

It requires much time

[spiral lynx]

VC /CV /CVC/V patterns

[frail river]

I can do the work of including all the patterns, special cases

ation, tion, cally

stuff like this

[flat rune]

Ask chat gpt

[frail river]

chatgpt isnt helpful

[flat rune]

Chat gpt is better than google

[frail river]

all chatgpt did was suggest me the cvc method

which fails miserably

[spiral lynx]

There is a method as. I said
Either detect by vowels
Sounds
Or transcription

[frail river]

what is transcription?

[verbal heron]

What's the issue though?

[spiral lynx]

The phonetics alphabets

[frail river]

thing is

computer program doesnt know anyting about sounds or transcription

all it sees is characters from a to z

[spiral lynx]

He wants a method that help him separate words into syllables

[flat rune]

Then no one is able to help you out

[frail river]

We can't find a method to separate a word into syllables

[frail river]

It is possible, I just need a list of all exceptions and special syllables

[verbal heron]

Is he willing to invent a method on his own?

[spiral lynx]

Yees i mean app he said

[spiral lynx]

There is!!

[flat rune]

I've found that

[frail river]

@spiral lynxWhat are those endings called? Cally, Tion, ation

[frail river]

that can be helpful

[spiral lynx]

Suffixes

[verbal heron]

I see, alright

[frail river]

great

[flat rune]

D'you need anything else ?

[frail river]

"ization" is a single syllable?

[verbal heron]

At first, you should better learn how to read phonetic symbols

[frail river]

ion-ization

[flat rune]

I don't even know how to lmao

[boreal ingot]

if you know how to pronounce it, you can clap on every separate part, and the number of times you clap is the number of syllables, lol. It's silly but it works

[frail river]

or ion-iza-tion

[spiral lynx]

categorization

[verbal heron]

Learn it

[flat rune]

I don't want

It's useless

[frail river]

A computer can't clap nor it knows how to pronounce words. All it sees is characters from a to z

Thats why I need an algorithm

as a human, I have a perfect sense of where syllables are

[verbal heron]

lol, it's useful for the ones who didn't grow up speaking English

[frail river]

I know how to do it by feeling, but my computer has no feelings

[flat rune]

I didn't learn them but my accent is good

[spiral lynx]

Also

[verbal heron]

What do you mean by clapping, here?

[frail river]

can you show bigger image?

[verbal heron]

You will be carrying the French accent while speaking English

[flat rune]

I'll try out

[spiral lynx]

There is the American pronunciation and British pronunciation

[flat rune]

Native don't care if your accent is perfect or not

As long as it's comprehensible

[frail river]

so if a word contains any of these at the end, its considered a single syllable?

[frail river]

So first thing I have to do

is check whether the word contains any of these suffixes at the end

if it does, take that suffix as a single syllable

?

Or what should be the first step in this process?

lets say our word is "oversimplified"

[flat rune]

o-ver-sim-pli-fied i think

[frail river]

You've already finished the process

[verbal heron]

(ou)

[frail river]

I was asking for step 1

First operation in this syllable extraction process

[flat rune]

Also learn every phonetic in english is awful

I prefer listening to natives and copy their accent

[verbal heron]

But schwa is legit helpful

[frail river]

no one knows?

[flat rune]

I'll learn english without learning phonetics

[verbal heron]

what?

[frail river]

How do you approach this process

[verbal heron]

alright

[frail river]

I am thinking like

"oversimplified" contains "ed"

that's a syllable

now the word becomes "oversimplifi"

o-ver-sim-pli-fi-ed

just append that last suffix to the end

[verbal heron]

but these words are pronounced together

[frail river]

fied

?

[flat rune]

fied is prounounced by one time

[frail river]

so the last suffix is always pronounced together witht the second last syllable?

[flat rune]

We don't say fi-ed

[verbal heron]

yes

[flat rune]

like i played

we don't say i pla-y-ed

[frail river]

that is useful information

[verbal heron]

hm, there especially

[frail river]

why is it so hard to get useful information

"prettiest"
-est is a suffix
pre-tti-est becomes pre-ttiest

right?

[verbal heron]

I am trying to pronounce it 💀

[flat rune]

If you don't care about our help then get it by yourself

[verbal heron]

Please don't be impolite

[spiral lynx]

Don't just depend on the visual separate method

[flat rune]

Sorry i am getting angry

[spiral lynx]

The sounds have their methods

[frail river]

whats visual separate method?

[flat rune]

Bro said useful information

[spiral lynx]

Calm down

[flat rune]

I am just answering ur question

[frail river]

useful information that will definitely work in my extraction algorithm

[boreal ingot]

ngl, I have no idea how you could solve your problem of syllables. But I think your program should consider that /n/, /m/, and /l/ can be a syllable on their own with no vowel

prehz - nt
boh - tm
pain - ap - l

[spiral lynx]

I mean you are seeing the word and separating

[frail river]

pain-ap-l? isnt that pine-ap-ple?

[spiral lynx]

Exactly

[spiral lynx]

Pp is one p

The sound

[boreal ingot]

exactly what ?

[frail river]

So I have to make a program that turns the word "pineapple" into "painapl"?

[spiral lynx]

You don't hear p p
U hear p

[spiral lynx]

They r depending on what they see in the word , not the sounds

[frail river]

yes

[verbal heron]

Spare that, the person is intermediate, so they may make errors

[frail river]

its only based on what you see in the word

all you have is a set of characters

[spiral lynx]

No

The pronunciation matters

[boreal ingot]

I wrote the vowels like they sound 'ai' is how you say thew 'i' in 'pine'

[frail river]

right

Thing is

My computer has no ears

[boreal ingot]

can't you turn your words into IPA?

[frail river]

Okay guys, is -ious a suffix?

[frail river]

what is IPA?

[boreal ingot]

yea

[spiral lynx]

The transcription

[boreal ingot]

International Phonetic Alphabet

[spiral lynx]

International phonetic alphabet

[boreal ingot]

no s

[frail river]

Okay.

Lets take word "Amphibious". I learned that the second last syllable is pronounced together with the suffix.

Am-phib-ious becomes Am-phibious

am i correct?

[flat rune]

he says useful information after he says why is it so hard to get useful information

I wouldn't dare saying that to someone who is helping me

[frail river]

You think I have to teach my computer all of this?

This is completely unsystematic

[spiral lynx]

Yes

[frail river]

i cant even imagine how to work with IPA

i think phibious isnt 1 syllable

it feels like phi-bious