🧠｜serious-chat

[severe burrow]

al kahf 46 ehey?

[formal pilot]

Neurodivergence affects about 15–20% of the global population, it's a big number
For reference, nearly 3-10% of the population have feet fetish

2% of the population is blonde

[molten osprey]

i disagree

[formal pilot]

So, Neurodivergence is more common than we think

[formal pilot]

Your opinion is irrelevant, aren't you a homosexual

This is Sharia-us Chat

[tender vessel]

Neurodivergence has nothing to do with fetishes and the color of the hair.

[molten osprey]

I agree

[tender vessel]

It has to do with Autism, ADHD etc...

[slender coral]

Wow! I didn't know this. 🫢

He is saying for reference dude

[tender vessel]

You dropped out of school, perhaps.

[formal pilot]

I gave the reference to visualise how common being autistic is

And to make you feel included

[tender vessel]

Yes. Constants wouldn't change regardless of the variables. However, about natural properties, they may as well be irreducible. We don't have to assume there is anything more to them for us to uncover and understand.

[slender coral]

Since the earth is round, that means Allah actually never sit on his throne since there's night somewhere on earth all the time. 🤔

What do you think?@thorny steeple @limber dagger

[uncut tiger]

[formal pilot]

🫵

[uncut tiger]

i won the giveaway

[formal pilot]

Did you get scammed?

[uncut tiger]

yeah they scammed me because i was inactive

[formal pilot]

I remember winning 2 back to back giveaways and getting only one gift here lol

[uncut tiger]

they gave it to some guy called vegan cat daddy

he rerolled it

[formal pilot]

Funny

[uncut tiger]

[formal pilot]

Don't worry, we will strike back

[uncut tiger]

there were 3 prizes and i won the biggest one

it was 100 dollars 💀

my third world dad wouldve lost his mind if i had told him dis

[formal pilot]

I hope you know the difference between Nitro and Nitro boost

[uncut tiger]

yea it was 1 year boost

but it was hundred dollars

my entire high school tutition fee was100 dollars 💀

[formal pilot]

I bet i went to the cheapest school possible

[tender vessel]

I always knew that's the problem with most atheists. They're so superficial that they think we worship a flying human being or something. Lol
Wanna give you something even better?
According to this Hadith: Sahih Muslim 395. Allah responds to every Muslim who prays, now how many Muslims pray simultaneously? How does Allah respond to all of them individually?

These questions have been addressed so many times that they should be put in a museum. Lol
The answer is simple. "There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing." (Qur'an 42:11)

[novel aurora]

Yep, and actually I was talking about the time where i put a lot of effort making sense of constants and that was how i felt

Sometimes physics are like that 💀

Yes

[severe burrow]

oh yeah

[slender coral]

Well, this isn't an answer at all. What you proposed is dismissal of the criticism, which is what you do for most criticisms and claim that you gave good responses to them afterward..
There's nothing like your god, so we have to ignore any logical inconsistencies that arise from your texts? It's a very pathetic response.
I can do this too. I can write books about a god I made when you question the problems in them I can say "oh there's nothing like him".

[novel aurora]

Initially im intrigued by some engineers and a scientist in the past (Planck) said the constant just appears like that and its just for the math

[slender coral]

And it's funny how you simply presented another problematic Hadith as if it's my problem not yours

[severe burrow]

khyahah yeah, think about this, if God needs enter in the lowest heaven every night to respond prayers,,

1. He is changing himself,
2. He has a bodily form
3. He is not all powerful at all

The ultimate conclusion is that such concept of God is not God at all

[slender coral]

But anyway, I think the one I shared is more problematic. The one Flare shared can be justified by god being able to communicate with all humans at once, but what can be the justification for the Hadith about god getting down to earth every night? That's a clear sign that the author didn't know the earth is round.

[severe burrow]

Quran literally says earth is made like a carpet

[slender coral]

It's incredible how they are so brainwashed to dismiss the many red flags in both Sunnah and Quran, both affirm multiple times that the earth is flat and fixed.

The only reason why not all of them are flat earthers today is that the idea of a round earth was known even before their prophet came.

[severe burrow]

Yes, i dont know how they can be still remain muslims after seeing such sources lol

[coral belfry]

how does that makes him have a bodly form

[severe burrow]

yeah

[severe burrow]

Movement actually, when he moves from one place (his throne), to the next place the lowest heaven, he must be composed of parts otherwise it's not possible for him to move

[coral belfry]

light can travel from place to place too, haven't you seen the sky

[severe burrow]

Movement also implies imperfection since it's the potentiality to change, when he moves from one place to a different to pursue his wants, that's called imperfectness,

[severe burrow]

Light itself is a creation , composed of parts

the properties can be divided

[coral belfry]

it is a creation i was giving an example

[tender vessel]

The issue is that there isn't a logical inconsistency about it in the first place. God is the creator of the space and time of the universe, it would be illogical to assume he is restricted by them. A painter doesn't become his paint or restricted by it. That's just stupid.

It's already stated in the books of Aqidah hundreds of years ago. You just complain out of ignorance. Nearly all the early scholars of Aqidah stated clearly that the how is unknown, it's simply of the unseen.

Speaking of logic, your criticism is just a classic example of argument from personal incredulity.

[winter echo]

@feral river this is who you're supporting

[slender coral]

Light is a physical entity. It changes based on the environment and therefore it's imperfect.
Also, movement aside, what the Hadith implies is that the earth is flat. If it's round, and Allah gets down from heaven every night, it means that he needs to always be down since there's always night time somewhere on earth. The author was oblivious to the fact that the earth is round.

[coral belfry]

i was giving an example to an object that doesn't have a body traveling
i already said that

[grave merlin]

😭

[slender coral]

The problem is when the painter claims he can get inside the painting. That's what the Hadith is saying, that he gets down from heaven to earth. You are trying to project your knowledge of philosophy on texts that were written by ignorant people.

[tender vessel]

Well, the one you shared can also easily be justified by saying God transcends time and therefore is able to receive the night prayers of all humans regardless of their time.
There is nothing contradictory here.

[severe burrow]

Not working out

[slender coral]

Why the texts didn't mention that then? This is just you projecting today's knowledge on the texts.

[coral belfry]

i said its an example are you blind

[severe burrow]

The example is not working out when you refer Allah by the same example

[coral belfry]

for the last time its an example of a thing without a body traveling

[tender vessel]

I don't project anything. You're the one appealing to personal incredulity.
Speaking of ignorance, the painter could say it, and you wouldn't know how unless he reveals it, but what you would know is that he is not restricted by the painting and therefore he wouldn't physically get inside the painting.

[severe burrow]

Oh so he travels?

[coral belfry]

no

or yes if he wants

or not at all

[tender vessel]

What are you talking about? He already said there is nothing like unto him even though he is hearing and seeing!
Do you have comprehension issues?

[severe burrow]

Common where is Allah? Above the 7th heaven right? And where is the lowest heaven? When he comes to the lowest heaven every night to hear the prayers.. is he not changing his position?

[coral belfry]

because he is all powerful and does what he wants

[severe burrow]

🤨

[coral belfry]

god does what he wants
move or not

[slender coral]

Dude, the Hadith just says that. It literally says our lord gets down every night to the heaven of this world!
Your prophet and your god didn't know what they were talking about.

[severe burrow]

Potentially to change is not all powerful dude. He is changing when he shifts his position. That's imperfection, he can't hear the prayers from his throne, as creatures he had to change himself.

[coral belfry]

he could

[slender coral]

@tender vessel read the Hadith again. Where does it even imply that he is outside of our world?

[severe burrow]

If he could why does he need to change his position? 🙂

[coral belfry]

he doesnt "need"

[slender coral]

It's his problem that he contradicts himself not my problem, and that's the result of him not knowing that the earth is spherical.

[severe burrow]

But it's clearly he is changing his position, so it's necessary for him to change

[coral belfry]

you clearly had not read the tafsir

[slender coral]

The tafsir for what exactly?

[severe burrow]

Here is the time for your to leave Islam. We are talking about the hadith, dude

[tender vessel]

You think repeating the claim is a rebuttal? Lol. You do have comprehension issues.
Allah hears and sees, yet it's not like our hearing and seeing. So, Allah gets down to the lower heaven, but not like our descendance. Now you could say, but it doesn't resonate or make sense to me, therefore it's false or logically inconsistent. Now that is exactly the argument from personal incredulity.
You're the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.

[coral belfry]

i am replying to the guy that said god doenst know that earth is spherical
and telling him that he clearly had not read the tafser

[slender coral]

It's not a matter of it not reasonating with me, it's a matter of how you insist that the words used don't actually mean what they are supposed to mean, that their meaning is the thing that keeps the texts right for you. The author's ignorance is clear, yet you just want to ignore that by interpreting what was said in a different way.

[severe burrow]

The tafsir has nothing to do when it says every night... it's not always but every night, it's skipping the day but only at every night.. which would imply the earth is flat, because there is not always night if the earth is round.. so he decends every night would only work when the earth is supposed to be flat. Otherwise he wouldn't even need to descend every night

[tender vessel]

Maybe the fact he said gets down? How would you go down to somewhere if you're already there. LMAO!
Also, Islam is indivisible, you can't just take on Hadith and discuss it in isolation from the rest of the revelation. Allah explicity says in the Qur'an that he is above all the heavens, which he created them. A 5 year old child would tell you that implies he is outside of our world.

[slender coral]

Actually it's only the mutakalimah who say that Allah is everywhere. This is not mentioned anywhere not in Quran nor in Sunnah.

[severe burrow]

Allah is not omnipresent in islam.

[slender coral]

Again, you try to forcefully project your knowledge onto something written by an ignorant person.

[slender coral]

These guys are unbelievable.
They want you to acknowledge their assumptions otherwise you are ignorant for them.

[feral river]

Israel are acting up for their own national interest, that stays irrelevant to my personal interest

I support Israel does not mean I support everything they have done

[tender vessel]

"He created the heavens and the earth for a purpose. He wraps the night around the day, and wraps the day around the night. And He has subjected the sun and the moon, each orbiting for an appointed term. He is truly the Almighty, Most Forgiving." [Qur'an 39:5]
The vast majority of scholars already understand that earth is spherical and attest this verse is explaining that much. Ibn Hazm even narrated consensus among all known scholars.
Now you wanna impose your own lack of understanding on us in a desperate attempt to undermine it. That's you being dishonest and disingenuous.

[severe burrow]

He believes in Islamic heresy

[slender coral]

Now he retreats from trying to prove that the Hadith has no problem to appealing to his scholars @severe burrow

[tender vessel]

Your accusation has absolutely no significance in such debate. I might as well accuse you of appealing to invincible ignorance, ignoring every evidence given, and I would honestly have a point.

The meaning of the Hadith is that each night, it's recommended to pray.

[severe burrow]

[slender coral]

Herasy for him is more loose, some Atharis would takfir him for his opinion that Allah is omnipresent.

[severe burrow]

It says Allah descends not just about prayer. And besides don't you guys only pray 5 times a day?

[tender vessel]

Never even remotely implied he is "everywhere". You're taking your comprehension issues to the next level. I literally stated the opposite.

[severe burrow]

khyhahab that's funny

[slender coral]

I'm tired omfg

There's no hope in this discussion, you are as close-minded as you have always been. Stop responding to shit I post here.

[severe burrow]

What do you think about the position of athari creed on the real distinction between attributes and essence

[feral river]

pay to allah and that guy will ease your pain when you are hungry

[tender vessel]

Well, Allah says:

He is with them [in knowledge] wherever they are [Qur'an 58:7]

And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein. [Qur'an 50:16:]

Among many other verses. If his power and knowledge encompasses all things, why would he need to exist physically everywhere.

[slender coral]

Haven't read much about this and I don't remember the little I read. Refresh my memory please.

[tender vessel]

Du'aa is different than Salah. Du'aa means basically supplication, and Salah is the literal prayer that we do at least 5 times a day.
What is mentioned in the Hadith is Du'aa, which includes Istighfar (asking for forgiveness) and Tawbah (repentance).

[severe burrow]

They believe attributes are distinct from eachother in reality and so with the essence of Allah. Like the attributes exists in reality separately.

In order words, Allah is not hie attributes. For his existence he depends on things other than him.

[severe burrow]

Still doesn't solve the problem

[severe burrow]

Which is polytheism btw

[coral belfry]

Ibn Taymiyyah said: “No one shares God’s attributes,, so we should not use analogies or comparisons because god is perfect and capable of everything ” (I am trying hard to translate what he said as accurately as possible).

[tender vessel]

Quite the opposite. I'm open to valid ideas. You, on the other hand, decided you dislike Islam long before this discussion. It's not about truth for you, it's about preference. That's the real definition of close-mindedness.

[slender coral]

You mean he doesn't depend on things other than him, right?

[tender vessel]

If only there was a problem.

The problem only lies in your head.

[thorny steeple]

Bruh don’t answer them u know it’s so hard for them to see the truth because || the heart is dead || 😂

Stufp and go pick the gun and fight for isreal stop saying bullshit here do the action

[tender vessel]

I've been ragebaited. 😭

[severe burrow]

Ibn Taymiah quotes his scholars and says :” For this reason, the Shaykh (al-Tahawi), may Allah have mercy on him, said: 'He has always existed with His attributes,' and did not say: 'He has always existed and His attributes,' because conjunction (using 'and') implies separation.""And likewise, Imam Ahmad, may Allah have mercy on him, said in his debate with the Jahmiyyah: We do not say: Allah and His knowledge, Allah and His power, Allah and His light. Rather, we say: Allah with His knowledge, power, and light: He is one God, glorified and exalted.”

So with what the text just states, the attributes of Allah aren’t separate from his essence nor are they identical to him therefore according to ibn taymiyyah and the scholars he quotes the attributes would have to be really distinct from Allah’s essence.

Conclusion :

To Sum up, the attributes are really distinct from Allahs’s essence, this is the case, as if Allah’s omnipotence is not the whole of him, it necessarily would have to be a part as there's no in between. therefore he would be a composite being, which is made up of attributes or parts. Furthermore if Allah lacked even one attribute, he wouldn’t be complete. For example, if he lacked the attribute of power, he wouldn’t be God, since by the term God we imply an all powerful being. So in sum, Allah would then depend on each of his attributes, which we already demonstrated to be impossible due to God’s nature being simple and not dependent.

[severe burrow]

He does depends on things other than him, for instance his knowledge, his knowledge is distinct in reality from him, it's not him. He depends on that knowledge to be called all knowledgeable.

[tender vessel]

Ibn Taymiah is literally stating the opposite of your conclusion. How does you referring to his statement help you? Lol

[fluid compass]

god is pleasure

can't escape wanting that

[tender vessel]

Go back to the cave you came from.

[fluid compass]

How Hidden Forces Hijack Your Mind and Energy

[coral belfry]

what you said doesn't make any sense
why?
because he is all powerful
he could delete power from all existence and then re-add it
he could delete wisdom from all of existence and then re-add it

[fluid compass]

pleasure = whats good. do you know whats good?

[severe burrow]

When you say it's not separable but at the same time it's distinct in reality. It's just self contradictory. Plus Allah attributes are not always attached, they can be detached, they are separable. Neo classical theism wouldn't support it

[coral belfry]

he could remove exsistance it self

[ripe stag]

Can someone contact an official of the United Nations Organisations, It's an emergency kinda situation in nepal

[severe burrow]

So you are saying he can remove his attributes from him?

[tender vessel]

No one ever said his attributes are separable. "With" is used for emphasis and reference not to separate him from his attributes. That's just a problem of language.

[severe burrow]

I'm from Nepal

[ripe stag]

Damn

[coral belfry]

he does what he wants
he is all powerful after all

[ripe stag]

Im staying at thapathali

[severe burrow]

What do you mean by distinct in reality?

[fluid compass]

You could also use his powers, but you have fear in your ego.

[severe burrow]

If he removes all powerful from him. How would he remain all powerful?

[severe burrow]

How is the situation in KTM. I stay in Dhangadhi

[fluid compass]

Are you stronger when you starve yourself?

[tender vessel]

Huh?

[coral belfry]

this is a paradox now

[fluid compass]

The present moves to front

[severe burrow]

Cause that's what Ibn taymiah meant when he said Allah is not his hand. His hand is distinct from him in reality.

[fluid compass]

His hand is you.

[severe burrow]

Lol

[thorny steeple]

https://tenor.com/view/drake-partynextdoor-nokia-baby-girl-music-gif-7130823890577284336

[tender vessel]

Ahl al-Sunnah never say Allah's attributes are separate beings. The problem is treating the attribute and the essence as if they are two separate entities. What Ibn Taymiah is explaining is different. He is clarifying that attributes are not identical to the bare concept of self/essence, yet they are not independent from Allah.
In other words, He is one with His attributes, but it's not like saying Himself and His attributes are identical.

[severe burrow]

Are you sure?

[severe burrow]

Attributes attached or detached

حَدَّثَنِي الْحَسَنُ بْنُ عَلِيٍّ الْحُلْوَانِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو تَوْبَةَ، - وَهُوَ الرَّبِيعُ بْنُ نَافِعٍ - حَدَّثَنَا مُعَاوِيَةُ، - يَعْنِي ابْنَ سَلاَّمٍ - عَنْ زَيْدٍ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ أَبَا سَلاَّمٍ، يَقُولُ حَدَّثَنِي أَبُو أُمَامَةَ، الْبَاهِلِيُّ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ اقْرَءُوا الْقُرْآنَ فَإِنَّهُ يَأْتِي يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ شَفِيعًا لأَصْحَابِهِ اقْرَءُوا الزَّهْرَاوَيْنِ الْبَقَرَةَ وَسُورَةَ آلِ عِمْرَانَ فَإِنَّهُمَا تَأْتِيَانِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ كَأَنَّهُمَا غَمَامَتَانِ أَوْ كَأَنَّهُمَا غَيَايَتَانِ أَوْ كَأَنَّهُمَا فِرْقَانِ مِنْ طَيْرٍ صَوَافَّ تُحَاجَّانِ عَنْ أَصْحَابِهِمَا اقْرَءُوا سُورَةَ الْبَقَرَةِ فَإِنَّ أَخْذَهَا بَرَكَةٌ وَتَرْكَهَا حَسْرَةٌ وَلاَ تَسْتَطِيعُهَا الْبَطَلَةُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ مُعَاوِيَةُ بَلَغَنِي أَنَّ الْبَطَلَةَ السَّحَرَةُ ‏.‏

Abu Umama said he heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) say: Recite the Qur'an, for on the Day of Resurrection it will come as an intercessor for those who recite It. Recite the two bright ones, al-Baqara and Surah Al 'Imran, for on the Day of Resurrection they will come as two clouds or two shades, or two flocks of birds in ranks, pleading for those who recite them. Recite Surah al-Baqara, for to take recourse to it is a blessing and to give it up is a cause of grief, and the magicians cannot confront it. (Mu'awiya said: It has been conveyed to me that here Batala means magicians.)

Sahih Muslim 804a
https://sunnah.com/muslim:804a

If the attributes are attached not separable from Allah, and since Quran is the attribute, the quran becoming birds is Also Allah becoming the birds

Since the attributes are not separable from Allah as you said.

[severe burrow]

See how islam is refuted

[tender vessel]

Here is a basic Arabic lessson for you.
Every word is taking in a literal sense unless it cannot be. For instance, saying:

when the pen feels the pain, and when letter sob, tell me my pen, why have you grown numb?
That's an example of a metaphorical language. How do we know? By the rule above. Since it cannot be taken literally because pens don't literally feel pain and letters don't literally cry, it is metaphorical.

[tender vessel]

LMAO. You think you brought a gutcha.

Next time, bro. Next time.

[severe burrow]

Not a metaphor when you an athari Salafi.. what's your creed? Since you are Defending athari creed, I assume you are an athari

[humble acorn]

Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “He is Allah—One ˹and Indivisible˺;
Allah—the Sustainer ˹needed by all˺.
He has never had offspring, nor was He born.
And there is none comparable to Him.”1
-# surah al ikhlas
i don't know what other ppl say about him or how they describe him, if he says he is one in the book he gave to the last prophet, then he is the one.

[west swallow]

Hi guys

[thorny steeple]

Search more smart boy

[tender vessel]

I'm a Muslim. The term "Athari" is usually attributed to those who uphold the Aqidah of the prophet, the companions, the third generations, and the scholars by those who follow other innovative creeds.
Also, you're completely confusing Sifat Allah (attributes of Allah) which we do take it literally with everything else. Taking them literally doesn't violate the Arabic rule because all we know is his statements, and therefore, it's taken literally because there is nothing contradicting that (the how is unknown). Allah speaks about himself, he knows himself better than anyone.

[fluid compass]

time exists only in the mind, here and now is real.

[fluid compass]

concepts are prisons if you do not feel the truth

[polar venture]

Hi guys I'm new here. Can anyone tell me where the voice chat for beginners is?

[fluid compass]

above this one, up there

[tender vessel]

...( فإنهما ) ، أي ثوابهما الذي استحقه التالي العامل بهما...
…(they will), meaning their reward, which is deserved by the one who follows the one acting with them.

[Source: Mirqāt al-Mafātīḥ Sharḥ Mishkāt al-Maṣābīḥ - By Mulla Ali al-Qari]

[polar venture]

I found it thanks 👍🏻

[slender coral]

This is fascinating. I never knew the Ghajar are basically the Romani people that Europeans talk about often.
And when they were mentioned in Arabic, I didn't know they are an ethnic group. Always thought they are just typical Egyptians who were kicked out of their communities because of their misconduct.
Doms in Egypt - Wikipedia https://share.google/5IRrgLUDX4yHxUeQv

@manic juniper do you have some in Finland?

[limber dagger]

Assalamualaikum

[slender coral]

و عليكم السلام

[humble acorn]

walaikum assalam

[thorny steeple]

Is abortion still illegal in Poland

[severe burrow]

One of what?

[severe burrow]

So is the Quran becoming birds?

[near blaze]

So is this enforcement or freedom

[rustic trout]

Yall my country is fighting against government 🥹

[formal pilot]

Nepal?

Nearly 18 people have died yet

Nepal Gen Z protests amid social media ban, clashes kill 19: All to know | Protests News | Al Jazeera https://share.google/ra0saUjUY66yMGpsI

Cursed pic

[manic juniper]

Yes, they are called Kaale but they are rare and I've never met or seen one even

[marble seal]

wasnt until yesterday lel

[feral river]

you want freedom, the premise is you have the enforcement to execute your right of free

[slender coral]

Makes sense but bro AI generated content sucks

[thorny steeple]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/735670248715583528/1086758442879950858/cattoastingexpanded.gif

[thorny steeple]

https://tenor.com/view/pepe-the-frog-pepe-the-frog-nervous-shocked-gif-15138438759410822982

[severe burrow]

Wine and chicken

[thorny steeple]

Water and chicken

[severe burrow]

Wine

[thorny steeple]

Cola

https://tenor.com/view/whiskey-whiskey-glass-whisky-ice-drink-gif-25967432

[severe burrow]

It's wine

[thorny steeple]

Wine and cola

[severe burrow]

Few is better

[severe burrow]

😭 haram

[thorny steeple]

Yes

https://tenor.com/view/islam-astaghfirullah-haram-gif-22586634

[severe burrow]

Yea don't consume it

It's not healthy anyway

[thorny steeple]

Yes right

That’s why it’s haram

https://tenor.com/view/confused-no-nope-gif-5413974953753901704

Whatever makes human lost it’s bad

And idk where u get that info

It’s bad still

It’s good for what exactly

[solemn frost]

Genesis 14:18-20 - English Standard Version (ESV)

<18> And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (He was priest of God Most High.) <19> And he blessed him and said," Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; <20> and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!" And Abram gave him a tenth of everything.

BibleBot v12.1.1 by Kerygma Digital

[deep zephyr]

Terrible choice. Who dragged your ass here?

[glass oar]

can someone pls unserver mute me pls

i promise il be good

[thorny steeple]

https://youtu.be/qcm168-WltA?si=1XhRBk3aKplIGttm

[slender coral]

Someone told me before that reading the Quran is like speaking to someone with schizophrenia
It jumps between many different topics so fast just like how people with schizophrenia speak.

Muslims find it good just because they believe in it not because it's a good book on its own.

[thorny steeple]

https://youtube.com/shorts/8AiAAlHIQXA?si=Eiwpp_ibxrvUlXGt

https://youtu.be/8bnrhQn7dlk?si=Ol6Wo2YuBRkJhT9n

[verbal zenith]

What is this chat all about

[slender coral]

It's really laughable. Probably the guy went silent to not offend his Muslim friend's feelings
Who is he anyone?

[slender coral]

Mindless preaching won't change anyone's mind.

[slender coral]

Politics, religion, that type of shit.

[civic nimbus]

what veiw do you all have about Rasputin

[slender coral]

Bruh

[civic nimbus]

anyone

[slender coral]

Hey. I don't think the story of Rasputin is that well-known that you'd get that many responses for it.

[civic nimbus]

so can you bring up somethis new that we can discuss it about

[thorny steeple]

https://youtube.com/shorts/IRQmi_rEkWI?si=8LtaSyRJAD32Co09

[slender coral]

I don't have any ideas. You do?

[thorny steeple]

Why day by day more Christian convert into Islam u have to question that

Idk go talk with someone who was Christian before and converted into Islam then u will hear what they say

[slender coral]

This doesn't address the Christian point of view 🤦‍♂️

[thorny steeple]

Ure atheist don’t talk in that 😂

[slender coral]

Maybe because you guys talk much about religion and suppress dissent while for most Christians today religion is a personal matter 🤷‍♂️

[slender coral]

I know more about Christianity it seems.

[manic juniper]

Unfortunately I had to be born in the Bible belt of my country where it's not a personal matter

[slender coral]

Sorry that you went through that. How was your experience? I'm from a Muslim background so Idk much about this.

[thorny steeple]

I don’t think so day by day more ppl convert into Islam

[slender coral]

It really baffles me how pathetic the "competition" between Islam and Christianity is, add to that how even in the pathetic competition isn't fair. Muslims kill and imprison those who would criticize Islam in their countries, and cry about prejudice when their faith is criticized in other countries, and then after all of that come and claim that more people are converting to Islam because of how good it is, ignoring how they suppress others, and how others mostly view religion as a personal or at the very least a local/national one.

It's just about being loud and silencing others.

And the funny thing is, even after all of this, and even after spending money on national campaigns to "combat" atheism, atheism is still spreading faster than Islam worldwide and spreading fast in Muslim countries

[manic juniper]

It's not nearly as bad but it's annoying that you're excluded from most activities and communities or simply treated differently, as if you're mentally ill

It's a good thing I left and moved to Lapland

[slender coral]

See this @thorny steeple

Our numbers are growing fast despite all the suppression and terrorism and victim play.

[manic juniper]

+61 millions is quite a lot

[high raven]

This is making no sense

https://tenor.com/view/thinking-think-ponder-wondering-hmmm-gif-3379473559512476121

[fresh flower]

Yeah fr

[fresh flower]

Hindu should be at the top

[slender coral]

That's due to religious switching, births aren't included.

Lol

So, as I said, births aren't included.

[feral river]

actually fearing if everybody would become unaffiated

I would rather everybody outside of my country all believe in some crap like Islam or some other piece of shit

then we can dominate the world easily

[slender coral]

https://tenor.com/view/social-credit-credit-social-уважение-плюс-уважение-gif-1626328442317885176

[feral river]

I don't feel that I have to explain how the religion is eliminating people's potential by telling them to believe in a fictional story for authority's power even at modern day we have more advanced ideology that could mobilize way more people than using religion

and religion never encourage question and verify which is very crucial in a process to develop new technology

[slender coral]

As if your state encourages questioning

[feral river]

we allow questions actually you can see tons of questions on our internet space even it's politically related

why the heck somebody would think great power/superpower with a 1.4 billion people would lack of opinions ?

and it's also an ultradiversified state

politically we do focus on unity and the absolute leadership by party officials, but we never try to suppress any positive/negative voice and opinion towards the state or authority

even every major event in here would trigger massive attraction and a lot of people would talk about how our country would go or what's happening in the other places

[turbid dome]

Is that what they call it there too?

[manic juniper]

No that's just the English name, it doesn't need its name

[slender coral]

What kind of questions does the state face then?

[manic juniper]

It's just called Pohjanmaa

[turbid dome]

Oh ok

[slender coral]

What does Pohjanmaa mean?

[feral river]

everything you could imagine in the United States of America, economy, law, leadership, authority, society, ideology, science, anything

[manic juniper]

It's the name of the region, the literal meaning is difficult to describe but roughly means "northern land"

[slender coral]

Give a particular example.

[manic juniper]

Now the actual meaning is very difficult to explain, it requires a PhD in Finnish language

[slender coral]

Mhm

[feral river]

like the Covid-19 which triggered a protest in every megacity in 2022 besides who openly defy the rule and disrupt the social order which is out of the law were prosecuted, nothing happens

[high raven]

Had to look it up, it's a nothingburger compared to the population size increases, seems to just have been reliant on self-surveys

[feral river]

that's the wildest opinion ever in this decade

[turbid dome]

Insane

[uneven citrus]

muslims or bunnies, who wins

[slender coral]

It's from the same article.

[uneven citrus]

best I can do is 2.71%

[formal pilot]

USA

[turbid dome]

Guess the practice of conversion before marriage and high birth rates combines for that

[formal pilot]

Where's the atheism

[uneven citrus]

[turbid dome]

I assume unaffiliated

[formal pilot]

It can't be, it's growing way faster than 9

[formal pilot]

🌮

[turbid dome]

idk, maybe it's only measuring one aspect of growth

[uneven citrus]

[turbid dome]

like by birth

[high raven]

You're right, but one is good use of statistical modelling and the other one is bad

[uneven citrus]

we're all born atheists

[turbid dome]

well if you're born into like a christian or muslim family then the indoctrination will hit real quick

[slender coral]

From what I understood one is measuring the overall growth (including births) and the other is measuring only based on religious switching.

[slender coral]

+25% is too big for the unaffiliated considering how birth tends to be unpopular among them.

[formal pilot]

Real number is much higher, many atheists don't want to identify as an atheist

[slender coral]

Yeah

It's really amazing. Many theists, especially in the Muslim world, are incredibly hostile against the unaffiliated, yet their numbers have been growing rapidly. I think this is happening mainly thanks to the internet. They can't censor everything now.

[high raven]

You're correct! But there's a caveat to the second one, I haven't gone through the whole methodology yet but it seems to be based on self-surveys. Self-surveys aren’t inherently bad, they’re bad when you generalize small, context-specific switching rates to whole populations and decades ahead, because that compounds sampling bias, recall error, and model over-extrapolation into projections with weak reliability. I'm not arguing the atheism, just the statistics

[turbid dome]

Well when you can hear everyone say the same thing as a justification of their religion it all sounds like BS

[turbid dome]

recall error shouldn't really happen on something like "what religion are you"

[slender coral]

It's not about the atheism here.
I wonder how accurate the other one too? I think they predicted much bigger growth for the Muslim population worldwide would happen by now, but from my understanding these statistics weren't very accurate because social, economical and political trends happen constantly and change birth and conversion rates.

[formal pilot]

Change in population (2010-20)
Islam ≈28%
Unaffiliated ≈ 17%

[mossy cargo]

can yall stop being unserious

[formal pilot]

Soon we (atheists) will take over

[crystal kayak]

Hello

[formal pilot]

Inshaallah

[mossy cargo]

hey

[mossy cargo]

religion is still growing faster overall compared to atheism just a fact btw

[crystal kayak]

Are you from the middle east

[slender coral]

You should see this @thorny steeple

[mossy cargo]

how does everyone guess ts

[high raven]

It does, if there's follow-ups to "And which religion were you" when asking atheists

[wide surge]

Hey

[crystal kayak]

Really or are you just lying

[mossy cargo]

@slender coral @high raven chatgpt ahh answers

[mossy cargo]

yeah im lying i guess

[turbid dome]

That's not something that would be forgotten as easily though, maybe something like "who did you support last election" would be more vulnerable to this compared to religion

[slender coral]

What

[crystal kayak]

So where are you from

[high raven]

It's a compliment

Unless he's calling us clankers

[slender coral]

To me it's not 😭

[mossy cargo]

not a compliment

if it makes u happy tho

sure

[slender coral]

https://tenor.com/view/uhh-cat-meow-meowmeow-confused-gif-8057852975940592422

[manic juniper]

Would you poo in a outhouse here?

[formal pilot]

Growth rate of unaffiliated is accelerating rapidly

Like the rate at which the growth rate is increasing, atheists are on top

[turbid dome]

no outhouses are terrible

[feral river]

I do consider atheism as a religion

and I'm irreligious or unaffiliated

[slender coral]

Even if that's the case, the unaffiliated are still growing very rapidly. And it's incredible considering the amount of suppression they face.

[high raven]

It can involve recall error, leading to misclassification bias, because people may have grown up in multiple faiths, switched, or interpret “religion” differently. “Who you supported last election” is recent and concrete, so it has lower measurement error and less risk of response bias

[turbid dome]

based

[formal pilot]

phoenix is about to reborn

[manic juniper]

Pooenix*

[formal pilot]

You're muslim

[formal pilot]

Xi jinping mentioned

[mossy cargo]

the lake

[mossy cargo]

yapparoni religion still growing gng

[formal pilot]

Mosquitos

[mossy cargo]

china

[mossy cargo]

worth the price

[manic juniper]

Mark 5:9

[solemn frost]

Mark 5:9 - Revised Standard Version (RSV)

<9> And Jesus asked him," What is your name?" He replied," My name is Legion; for we are many."

BibleBot v12.1.1 by Kerygma Digital

[turbid dome]

This is more dependent on the phrasing of the question though. Clarifying "the last religion you were apart of before becoming unaffiliated" in the question can solve most of it, along with providing a more concrete definition of religion with examples.

[fresh flower]

Wtf are you doing here💀💀💀💀

[formal pilot]

Seems like you haven't encountered a great army of mosquitoes

[mossy cargo]

u told me to immigrate here

[mossy cargo]

im just taking a shit they wont mind

[formal pilot]

Mark 11:13-14

[solemn frost]

Mark 11:13-14 - Revised Standard Version (RSV)

<13> And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. <14> And he said to it," May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard it.

BibleBot v12.1.1 by Kerygma Digital

[mossy cargo]

the fuck hows that banned

ok wait

t0welhead

[manic juniper]

Completely immoral

[mossy cargo]

wtfs a Sauropsidia

[formal pilot]

It's a conspiracy theory

[mossy cargo]

oh

shes one of them then

didnt know ppl like that were still around

[molten osprey]

i disagree

[mossy cargo]

i agree

[crystal kayak]

[formal pilot]

Well on technicalities sauropsids are inferior race to synapsids

[molten osprey]

ok

[fresh flower]

You can't curse here bro

It's very pg-13

[manic juniper]

How

[severe burrow]

Huh?

[manic juniper]

He cursed an innocent tree

[mossy cargo]

these lot r like 11

[fresh flower]

Stupid atheists taking the bible literally instead of allegoricially

[mossy cargo]

yo bro what they looking at

[fresh flower]

Would you let me groom you be fr

[mossy cargo]

probably yes

[severe burrow]

Nothing wrong with God destroying his creations

[vast quest]

Burgers

[fresh flower]

Hhhhhhhh 😹😹😹

[manic juniper]

Until you are the next in line

[severe burrow]

Job 13:15

[solemn frost]

Job 13:15 - English Standard Version (ESV)

<15> Though he slay me, I will hope in him; yet I will argue my ways to his face.

BibleBot v12.1.1 by Kerygma Digital

[manic juniper]

That's cucked

[mossy cargo]

what r these words 🥀

"cucked"

ok gtfo im bored

next

[severe burrow]

Psalm 73:26

[solemn frost]

Psalm 73:26 - English Standard Version (ESV)

<26> My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.

BibleBot v12.1.1 by Kerygma Digital

[manic juniper]

Did I struck a nerve

[severe burrow]

Job 13:15 nkjv

[solemn frost]

Job 13:15 - New King James Version (NKJV)

<15> Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. Even so, I will defend my own ways before Him.

BibleBot v12.1.1 by Kerygma Digital

[fresh flower]

What's your name bro we can't read Chinese

[split remnant]

hey everyone., is there a create vc section in here

[limber dagger]

/rank

[high raven]

You're a reformed baptist right? Or was it evangelical?

[slender coral]

@opal elbow I know the case that you mentioned about Muslim men being allowed to assault married slaves. It's just be a pain to find English sources on Islam topics.
The verses 4:23 and 4:24 mention the exceptions of women a Muslim man can have sex with.

˹Also˺ forbidden to you for marriage are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your paternal and maternal aunts, your brother’s daughters, your sister’s daughters, your foster-mothers, your foster-sisters, your mothers-in-law, your stepdaughters under your guardianship if you have consummated marriage with their mothers—but if you have not, then you can marry them—nor the wives of your own sons, nor two sisters together at the same time—except what was done previously. Surely Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful. [4:23]

Now here's the important part:

Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women—except ˹female˺ captives in your possession............ [4:24]

The scholarly explanation (Tafsir) by an important Muslim scholar Ibn-Kathir says and transmits narratives from Mohamed's companions:

Forbidding Women Already Married, Except for Female Slaves
Allah said,

وَالْمُحْصَنَـتُ مِنَ النِّسَآءِ إِلاَّ مَا مَلَكْتَ أَيْمَـنُكُمْ

(Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess.) The Ayah (verse) means, you are prohibited from marrying women who are already married,

إِلاَّ مَا مَلَكْتَ أَيْمَـنُكُمْ

(except those whom your right hands possess) except those whom you acquire through war, for you are allowed such women after making sure they are not pregnant. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri said, "We captured some women from the area of Awtas who were already married, and we disliked having sexual relations with them because they already had husbands. So, we asked the Prophet about this matter, and this Ayah was revealed, e

وَالْمُحْصَنَـتُ مِنَ النِّسَآءِ إِلاَّ مَا مَلَكْتَ أَيْمَـنُكُمْ

(Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess). Consequently, we had sexual relations with these women." This is the wording collected by At-Tirmidhi An-Nasa'i, Ibn Jarir and Muslim in his Sahih.

Here are the sources:
https://quran.com/4/23

https://quran.com/4/24

https://quran.com/4:24/tafsirs/en-tafisr-ibn-kathir

[heady galleon]

Ur a Muslim

Niceee

[slender coral]

@static sorrel @sharp drum sorry I had to leave the call. What do you guys think about this?

[slender coral]

I'm not

[heady galleon]

Aaa
What's this for

[slender coral]

It's a discussion about Islam and slavery. A particular case called the captives of Awtas. In the time of the Islamic prophet, there were some women who were taken as captives after a clash between Muslims and some non-Muslim tribe. The women were married, and that made the Muslims feel weird about having sex with them. So they went and asked the prophet, and after that a verse was revealed saying that could happen even if the slaves are married.

[static sorrel]

إِلَّا مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ (except the bondwomen you come to own): This sentence is an exception from the rule set in وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ ; (the women already bound in marriage).

It means that it is not permissible that a woman who already has a husband be taken in marriage by another person, unless she comes in the ownership of a person as a bondwoman. This happened when Muslims had to carry out jihad against the infidels of Dar-al-harb (a non-Muslim state without a treaty of peace with the Muslims). As a result of a valid war with them women prisoners might have been brought to the Islamic state. If their non-Muslim husbands remained behind in their original non-Muslim State, their bond of marriage with them used to be terminated by their entry into the Islamic state, and it was lawful for a Muslim to marry her, if she was a Christian, a Jew or had embraced Islam. Similarly, if the head of the Islamic state opted to make her a bondwoman and had given her to a participant in the war as his share in the spoils, he could also enjoy her company. However, this marriage or enjoyment was permissible only after she goes through at least one menstruation period after her entry into the Islamic state. If it appeared that she was pregnant from her previous husband, it was necessary to wait until she delivers the child.

Hence , the woman is no longer married after becoming the bondswoman and then the Muslim man can marry her , since she is not married in the first place now. The marriage gets terminated

[fresh flower]

@thorny steeple My Kurdoid friend I have something for you

[slender coral]

Well, it's terminated under Islamic rule, but for that woman and her husband, she is taken from her partner forcibly. You can expect, the vast majority of cases like this, are sexual assault.

It's very disturbing if you think about it seriously

[tender vessel]

...He who slaps his slave or beats him, the expiation for it is that he should set him free. [Sahih Muslim 1657]
So, slapping or beating them expiated by setting them free, but you think it's okay in Islam to forcibly have an intercourse with them? That's disturbing indeed.

[slender coral]

You don't want to understand that your contradictory texts are not my problem.

You simply just ignored the verses and the narrations about Awtas captives and introduced a new Hadith omfg

[mossy cargo]

ukraine

[slender coral]

And Islamic discussion and my blood is getting boiled

[mossy cargo]

ohhh

billy badass

[slender coral]

Fr

[tender vessel]

Islam recommends setting them free in every possible occasion, setting slaves free is heavily rewarded in Islam; yet, you think Islam recommends having slaves. You, my friend (just for the sentence, you're not my friend), need to learn what sincerity is.

[slender coral]

And they are often filled with cruelty and ignorance like in this case here@strange kraken

[high raven]

https://tenor.com/view/plankton-eating-popcorn-popcorn-plankton-meme-plankton-yes-gif-18251234252356731757

Elaborate, or else it comes off as weak ragebait

[tender vessel]

Discussing these topics is against Discord's TOS and community guidelines.

[lean skiff]

oh shiver me timbers

don’t go against discord TOS guys

[high raven]

That sounds about right actually

[lean skiff]

take coverrrrr 😱

[fresh flower]

Who are these two random trolls

[slender coral]

You need to learn more about your religion dude. And I wouldn't be honored with your friendship.

Narrated Maimuna, the wife of the Prophet (ﷺ) that she manumitted her slave-girl and the Prophet (ﷺ) said to her, "You would have got more reward if you had given the slave-girl to one of your maternal uncles."
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:2594

[fringe stag]

heyy

[slender coral]

Hi

[fringe stag]

omg i agree

[fresh flower]

It has nothing to do with proving right or wrong, I don't think any server wants people to discuss age of consent or when it is or was morally justified to marry and/or have sex with a child

If yall too slow to get that just say so

[lean skiff]

not being funny buddy but your pronouns are man/feminist

[slender coral]

Wait, where in the TOS does it prohibit that? I didn't know about this.

[fresh flower]

Elaborate on it if you want, just don't bitch and moan once you get muted for it

[slender coral]

Anyway

Islam certainly sucks

[fresh flower]

Mf came in here with a sidekick to troll and expects anyone to take him seriously 💀

[fresh grotto]

hello

[fringe stag]

the troll is kinda right tho

[slender coral]

It's funny because he often trolls 😅

[fresh flower]

Always*

[slender coral]

Who are you referring to as a troll exactly?

[fresh flower]

The audacity when you're edating

[slender coral]

Yo guys chill the fuck out

Let's just focus on shitting on Islam pls

[tender vessel]

وقد وقع في رواية النسائي المذكورة فقال أفلا فديت بها بنت أخيك من رعاية الغنم فبين الوجه في الأولوية المذكورة وهو احتياج قرابتها إلى من يخدمها ، وليس في الحديث أيضا حجة على أن صلة الرحم أفضل من العتق لأنها واقعة عين
In the narration reported by al-Nasā’ī, it is mentioned that he said: “Would you not have ransomed your cousin with it instead of her tending to the sheep?” — thus clarifying the reasoning for the greater priority mentioned, namely that his relative was in need of someone to serve her. And this ḥadīth also does not constitute evidence that maintaining family ties is superior to manumission, because it relates to a specific incident (not a general rule).

[Fath al-Bari - By Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani ]

You think you're teaching me my own religion? LMAO

[slender coral]

Yes I am lol

Because you'd dismiss the texts and use some scholarly opinion as an argument

[tender vessel]

@strange kraken
Are you an atheist?

What are you?

[slender coral]

This seems out of context too LMFAO. What Hadith is he talking about exactly? Doesn't seem like the one we were talking about.

Doesn't talk about the slave case

[fringe stag]

flare r u good

[slender coral]

He isn't

[fringe stag]

been typing for 5 mins

[limber dagger]

إني أرى رؤوسًا قد أينعت وحان وقت قطافها

[slender coral]

He is saying "I see heads ready to be picked, and its picking time has come" (rough translation).

[limber dagger]

English can't describe this.

[slender coral]

The religion of pieces

Prophet (SAW)

https://tenor.com/view/saw22-saw-jigsaw-look-gif-17204954302005508012

[limber dagger]

From a person who did not pray

[fringe stag]

i close my eyes all the time

[manic juniper]

Coming from the guy who said Arab atheists are dangerous or something

[tender vessel]

It literally said it's narrated in al-Nasā’ī. I really don't know what's up with you, you say you guys are bad because of this and that, when clarified via scholarly arguments, you complain.
You remind me of those who say we're not convinced by the doctor's prescriptions, and therefore we won't follow it. They end up sick or dead. Lol
You need to learn what specialization is.

[humble acorn]

her father asked prophet s.a.w to marry her daughter, coz he wanted to be a part of prophet's family. he did nikkah with her, but you can't say he had any kind of intimate relation with her when she was a kid, he treated her in the best way possible, and , there are many hadiths which will tell you that the girl was happy with the marriage, nobody forced her, and she never married again after his death,
many girls marry to old men with 25 or more age gap, why! bcoz they have money, and ppl have no issue with it, but you have issue when she married a prophet,

[limber dagger]

This is a quote from a man who destroyed the Kaaba, the holy place for Muslims.

[slender coral]

@strange kraken the interesting thing here is that, regardless of how true this is, these guys aren't used to dissent at all. In their countries, those who would criticize Islam would get killed, imprisoned, or restricted heavily. This is one of the signs of religious discourse being an alien concept for them, they will always try to stop you from talking by any means. And they often be very desperate. I know because unfortunately I grown up in a Muslim country.

[slender coral]

He said ISIS are atheists apperantly.

[tender vessel]

2452 حدثنا يحيى بن بكير عن الليث عن يزيد عن بكير عن كريب مولى ابن عباس أن ميمونة بنت الحارث رضي الله عنها أخبرته أنها أعتقت وليدة ولم تستأذن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فلما كان يومها الذي يدور عليها فيه قالت أشعرت يا رسول الله أني أعتقت وليدتي قال أوفعلت قالت نعم قال أما إنك لو أعطيتها أخوالك كان أعظم لأجرك وقال بكر بن مضر عن عمرو عن بكير عن كريب إن ميمونة أعتقت
الثاني حديث ميمونة عن يزيد هو ابن أبي حبيب ، وبكير هو ابن عبد الله بن الأشج ، وهذا الإسناد نصفه الأول مصريون ونصفه الآخر مدنيون ، وفيه ثلاثة من التابعين في نسق يزيد وبكير وكريب .

قوله : ( أنها أعتقت وليدة ) أي جارية ، في رواية النسائي من طريق عطاء بن يسار عن ميمونة " أنها كانت لها جارية سوداء " ولم أقف على اسم هذه الجارية ، وبين النسائي من طريق أخرى عن الهلالية [ ص: 259 ] زوج النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - وهي ميمونة في أصل هذه الحادثة أنها كانت سألت النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - خادما فأعطاها خادما فأعتقتها .

قوله : ( أما ) بتخفيف الميم ( إنك ) بفتح الهمزة ( لو أعطيتها أخوالك ) أخوالها كانوا من بني هلال أيضا ، واسم أمها هـند بنت عوف بن زهير بن الحارث ، ذكرها ابن سعد .

قوله : ( لو أعطيتها أخوالك كان أعظم لأجرك ) قال ابن بطال : فيه أن هبة ذي الرحم أفضل من العتق ، ويؤيده ما رواه الترمذي والنسائي وأحمد وصححه ابن خزيمة وابن حبان من حديث سلمان بن عامر الضبي مرفوعا الصدقة على المسكين صدقة ، وعلى ذي الرحم صدقة وصلة لكن لا يلزم من ذلك أن تكون هبة ذي الرحم أفضل مطلقا لاحتمال أن يكون المسكين محتاجا ونفعه بذلك متعديا والآخر بالعكس ، وقد وقع في رواية النسائي المذكورة فقال أفلا فديت بها بنت أخيك من رعاية الغنم فبين الوجه في الأولوية المذكورة وهو احتياج قرابتها إلى من يخدمها ، وليس في الحديث أيضا حجة على أن صلة الرحم أفضل من العتق لأنها واقعة عين ، والحق أن ذلك يختلف باختلاف الأحوال كما قررته ، ووجه دخول حديث ميمونة في الترجمة أنها كانت رشيدة وأنها أعتقت قبل أن تستأمر النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - فلم يستدرك ذلك عليها بل أرشدها إلى ما هـو الأولى ، فلو كان لا ينفذ لها تصرف في مالها لأبطله ، والله أعلم .

There you go.

[limber dagger]

I never said that

[slender coral]

I misunderstood then

[humble acorn]

silly of you to think that the right was taken from the girl, as a muslim girl, if she says no so it's a clear no, she has every right to reject or accept, and she can send the proposal through a guardian too,

and why she never married to another man! she was free, had every right to marry a man, but she chose to stay loyal to him

this deny the statement

that she was forced into that marriage

[slender coral]

She was a child, dude. Just 6 years old when she was married and 9 when he had sex with her. There's no consent here.

If you put any child through that mostly they'd just go along with their family

[humble acorn]

who said she was 9 when had any relation with him!

there is consent! a 9 year old has a sense of what's right and wrong !

[slender coral]

Narrated Aisha:

that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death).
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134

[slender coral]

No of course not! Can we let nine years-olds drive? Live by themselves? Pay the bills? Of course not.

[turbid dome]

9 year olds can't consent

what are we even talking about

[humble acorn]

he is saying that hazrat ayesha r.a was forced into an intimate relation

[limber dagger]

Boys were getting married at the age of 10.

[tender vessel]

Imagine being an atheist and discussing moral issues.

[turbid dome]

legally true

[mystic granite]

Is he pagal?

[turbid dome]

If you're under 18 your feelings don't matter, it's still a crime

[high raven]

https://tenor.com/view/jerry-eating-amc-perfectly-popcorn-mouse-yum-yum-delicious-gif-15877432887457947334

[turbid dome]

Atheism has nothing to do with morality, I don't need a god to define moral standards

[tender vessel]

How do you know what's right from what's wrong, objectively?

[mystic granite]

At that time there was no such legal system

[limber dagger]

If a person does not marry at a young age, the result will be se*ual dysfunction.

[humble acorn]

if we look at the historical accounts of the social structure of the time, Aisha was already engaged to another man prior to her marriage to the Prophet SAW, indicating that it was socially acceptable for marital alliances between families to be forged at an early age. Also women during that time reached maturity relatively quickly – psychologically, emotionally and physically – due to their upbringing and surroundings. In the case of Aisha, she attained intellectual, physical and emotional maturity exceptionally fast compared to her peers.

If we look at the various claims made against the Prophet SAW during his lifetime and after – he was called a madman, a liar, a magician, possessed by the devil – yet not one of these claims, even by his own worst enemies, touched upon his marriage to Aisha. Had the marriage been controversial, his enemies would have scandalized and sensationalized the event. Yet no claims of this sort were raised for hundreds and hundreds of years, whether by the pagan Arabs, the Romans, or any of the subsequent societies, until very recently.

If allegations were made against the Prophet SAW in respect of abuse or impropriety during the marriage, then one would expect all these claims to surface after his death, when Aisha was free to speak without fear of repercussion from the Prophet SAW. Yet, even after his death, there is not a single recorded account of any complaint or statement about their marriage, save that the Prophet SAW was the best of husbands and that the marriage was an extremely happy and harmonious one. In today’s society, very few, if any, women would describe their husbands in such unequivocal terms. Aisha was nineteen when the Prophet SAW passed away, and until her own death over forty five years later, she spoke of him lovingly. The aspersion cast upon the marriage by the modern media is totally unsubstantiated, as there is not a single recorded statement to support any of these those claims.

[mystic granite]

It was about puberty

[humble acorn]

||aadhe se zyada aese hii milein ge||

[mystic granite]

And main reason for it was to support her emotionally and take care for her

[high raven]

Urdu?

[humble acorn]

yes
can you understand it!

[turbid dome]

There is no objectivity as morality is a human construct, morality changes over time, which is why what has been considered moral has changed over time.

[mystic granite]

Like a Muslim is allowed to marry 4 women in order to protect and take care of them which was made for women whose men went to war the widows and orphans

[high raven]

No, it just sounded like urdu so I was asking to see if I was right 😭

[humble acorn]

ohhh, yes it is urdu, you are right!

[mystic granite]

Where are you from ?

[tender vessel]

So marriage under 18, since it was acceptable and normal in certain eras, isn't wrong according to atheists at these eras, no?

[high raven]

I live in Norway but ethnically I'm from the country with the strongest currency

[limber dagger]

These social interactions are not a reason for the development of civilization. What is the relationship between marriage to four and ignorance?

[high raven]

https://tenor.com/view/saul-goodman-lebanon-lebnen-gif-2485126067595912278

[limber dagger]

لبنان الصغير

[thorny steeple]

Olivanderrrr whatssss it

[high raven]

Yes😭

[static sorrel]

How does one do this? Like hidden msg?

[humble acorn]

put || end and start of your msg

[static sorrel]

Oohh

|Shukriya|

[static sorrel]

Ain't working 😭

[static sorrel]

Oohh

[manic juniper]

Not gold

[limber dagger]

These social interactions are not a reason for the development of civilization. What is the relationship between marriage to four and ignorance?

[static sorrel]

||Like this?||

[static sorrel]

Finally

[humble acorn]

yes,

[static sorrel]

[limber dagger]

It's real

[thorny steeple]

Bruh 😭

[static sorrel]

|| ||

[fresh flower]

100% real

[limber dagger]

@gaunt ember

[fresh flower]

Nice virus bro

[turbid dome]

Well atheists aren't a monolith, so that's a broad generalization. At the time I'm unsure of what atheists would have thought at the time. Though I personally find it unacceptable, and think that we shouldn't defend actions of the past that are considered immoral today and should condemn those actions

[static sorrel]

https://tenor.com/view/plotting-plottin-hehe-planning-evil-plan-gif-16790293

Aight , I'mma go to sleep now , it's almost 2 AM

[fresh flower]

We'd all be marrying kids if we lived back then, yall lying to yourself

[static sorrel]

Assalamualaikum warahmatullah wabarkatuh

[humble acorn]

-# when you tell disc commands to ''kids''.

[limber dagger]

الحمد لله

[static sorrel]

Bruh , I'm not a kid , I'm just inexperienced in discord

[limber dagger]

I'm 16

[fresh flower]

We must all unite against these kafir atheists

[humble acorn]

yeah i can see that.

[fresh flower]

TAKBIR

[static sorrel]

Oh ok , good to know

[limber dagger]

الله أكبر

[static sorrel]

[limber dagger]

Yes

I'm kidding

[static sorrel]

Muslims only

[static sorrel]

How did you write this one tho?

[fresh flower]

Except shia

[humble acorn]

lol

[static sorrel]

That's why I said Muslims only , this excludes shia automatically

[limber dagger]

I care about peace. Whoever incites and mocks others will be punished.

[manic juniper]

Aren't they more Muslim than Sunnis since they are fighting Israel

[fresh flower]

Hhhhhh😹😹😹😹

[static sorrel]

Well, Hitler fought Jews , he wasn't a Muslim either

[humble acorn]

-# like this

[manic juniper]

Just because he didn't call himself a Muslim

[static sorrel]

-# like this

[manic juniper]

But he would have been

[static sorrel]

He was a Christian

[humble acorn]

congrats.

how about this one!

[static sorrel]

👍

[humble acorn]

and this one

[turbid dome]

Shia are based

[static sorrel]

Yoooo , how?

[limber dagger]

I want to increase the extremism here to make me laugh

[static sorrel]

Based on false aqeedah

[static sorrel]

Teach me your ways

[manic juniper]

Only nominally

[humble acorn]

for cursive writing, only one star
for bold, it's two stars
*** i rarely use this one ***

[turbid dome]

"Their bullshit isn't in line with my bullshit"

[static sorrel]

Well , he did quote the bible quite a lot of times

[tender vessel]

That would only be logically justifiable within a moral realist view. I'm assuming you're a moral relativist based on your statement, and therefore judging past eras with modern standards is akin to presentism. It'd simply be logically unjustifiable.

[static sorrel]

This doesn't make any sense , but ok

[static sorrel]

Oohhh

noice

[humble acorn]

third one will use three

i missed one

[static sorrel]

Barakallah fik

[tender vessel]

Is that a Chinese guy quote? 😂

[manic juniper]

I did too but I don't think I'm a Christian

[static sorrel]

I'm going to sleep now , if anyone has any questions regarding Islam , you can go to Ask a Muslim VC

[static sorrel]

Oh ok👍

https://tenor.com/view/assalamualaikum-rose-glittery-gif-5918092769010685439

[high raven]

Whatsapp coded

[tender vessel]

Walikum Assalam, akhi. 🤍

[thorny steeple]

My mind is really hurting when I open this chat

[humble acorn]

fi amanillah,

[humble acorn]

and how do you feel when you debate with them here!

[thorny steeple]

I wanna shot my head

[hoary glen]

why?

[humble acorn]

this will be seen as suicide, which is haram,

[thorny steeple]

That’s why I’m still alive if it wasn’t haram I wouldn’t be here

https://tenor.com/view/cat-stare-catstare-cat-stare-sus-catglare-cat-glare-gif-14942558849944709546

[thorny steeple]

It’s always religion

[humble acorn]

if that's to be the case, then many wouldn't be here

[hoary glen]

alright, why do you care what others think about religion?

[turbid dome]

I don't believe morality exists besides as a tool for social control. I can make statements about what is moral but that is only because I believe It will produce the best outcome for humanity. Don't take this to be consequentialist either. I would be closer to a rule utilitarian in practice. In this case, I think that pdf files are wrong as it leads to bad outcomes, and defense of pdf files, especially given that we're in the modern day, is wrong. I would also say it's a pretty clear indicator of the morality of a hypothetical god if he chooses a pdf file as a prophet.

[thorny steeple]

I don’t think so most ppl are not Muslim here

[thorny steeple]

https://tenor.com/view/tissue-roll-hangging-suicide-funny-gif-22276377

Bruh im saying why they always talk about religion

[humble acorn]

trueee, but still some are

[thorny steeple]

[thorny steeple]

Yeah

[humble acorn]

'

[hoary glen]

Maybe it's because of curiosity

[neon sierra]

guys how to meditate

i mean how do you meditate

personally

this is a very serious matter

[tender vessel]

That first statement sounds like moral anti-realism. Also, rule utilitarianism is a consequentialist view, by the way.
However, you seem to be grounding moral goodness and badness with human flourishing and societal improvements, which contradicts moral anti-realism, since it implies moral claims correspond to objective properties.

[manic juniper]

Climb a tree then try to relax but it's not practical everywhere

[neon sierra]

No i dont want to hear the pagan way

[manic juniper]

Understood

[neon sierra]

i am not that flexible

i cant climb a tree unfortunately

ISFRUN I CANT BELIEVE MY EYES

VIVEEEEEEKKK

[manic juniper]

What is it that you cannot believe

[neon sierra]

VIVEEEEKKK

[thorny steeple]

Fr fr fr

[thorny steeple]

Her bejî peshmerga

[neon sierra]

WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN

[neon sierra]

THE UHM FLAG

[thorny steeple]

What?

[manic juniper]

?

[neon sierra]

yes the flag

[manic juniper]

Boy this will cause some damage

[high raven]

Sitting still doesn't work well for me, hiking does, it's very peaceful

[neon sierra]

got added

[manic juniper]

Well not anymore ever since Erdogan cockblocked most Turks from accessing Discord

[neon sierra]

wait what

[neon sierra]

they added the flag

[manic juniper]

They banned Discord in Turkey so most Turks were filtered out of the place

[neon sierra]

trueee i got confused for a second thought u meant something else

[manic juniper]

It's why on the other English server the amount of Turkposting decreased by a considerable amount and now Arabs took over

[neon sierra]

well tho the third eng server does have turkish mods

so they have abused their power by some lies and banned the word kurdish in it

[manic juniper]

He lives in India, he was spared from destruction

[neon sierra]

blacklisted

[manic juniper]

This is a TES III: Morrowind reference

[hoary glen]

Discord blocked in Türkiye?

[manic juniper]

Yes I think so, alongside Roblox

[hoary glen]

So the Turkish people who are using this server are also using VPN?

[manic juniper]

Yes

[alpine rose]

Türkiye türkiye 🇹🇷

[manic juniper]

Can't believe Atatürk made Turkey secular just to have Discord banned 100 years later

[hoary glen]

First time hearing about this

[neon sierra]

i saw u type in turkish some days ago

wait

[hoary glen]

What? You must have seen it wrong.

[alpine rose]

Secularity has nothing to do with that btw

[neon sierra]

no i clearly saw it

[alpine rose]

He is a kurd, most of them speak turkish

[neon sierra]

have u ever seen me type here or there?

[turbid dome]

I'm saying I'm not fully consequentialist in that I do care about the means, though I am closest to (but not) rule utilitarian. That being said, I view it as a tool of social control, and therefore is individually applied and flexible to serve what best fits society, which will generally follow rules but sometimes deviate. Morality is a response to the needs of social control. You're applying labels which only roughly correspond with my moral framework and then looking for differences when there is none, it's purely self serving in its goals. None of that has to do that with where this started, which was pdf being immoral

[manic juniper]

It's the butterfly effect

[neon sierra]

thats what I was checking because the name sounded familiar

anyways

[manic juniper]

Just like the fall of Kyivan Rus'/Gardariki by the Mongols eventually led to the creation of Skibidi Toilet

[hoary glen]

What? The Turkish language that most Kurds speak?

[hoary glen]

Maybe it's because this name is very common. Someone asked me before if I changed it to pfp

[neon sierra]

I think he meant as secondary language

[neon sierra]

Do u know aland tho

[hoary glen]

I should ask Lavin to answer you because I am not Kurdish. @thorny steeple

[hoary glen]

what?

[neon sierra]

ok whatever then

I remember someone else with the same name

[thorny steeple]

Whattt

[hoary glen]

He said most Kurds can speak Turkish, and I don't know if I understood him correctly, but that's probably what he meant.

[manic juniper]

He's not Kurdish?

[hoary glen]

Looks like I need to change my username to something less common.🤔

[limber dagger]

What do you think about the phrase "oppressed peoples have bad morals"?

[thorny steeple]

Ah right maybe rojava ppl can talk Turkish too yep they can because rojava is under Turkish government and before I think for 2 years or something Kurdish language got banned in turkey that’s why I guess they know Turkish

[alpine rose]

Kurdish is not banned in türkiye

Stop talking shit

[hoary glen]

But Kurds exist in many places, and those who can speak Turkish among them should be a minority.

[thorny steeple]

Not now before

[alpine rose]

„Before“ was like 15 years ago

[thorny steeple]

Yeah Ik ppl in rojava Kurdistan they all probably can speak Turkish too

[hoary glen]

oh oh

[hoary glen]

Did Türkiye really ban Discord?

[thorny steeple]

Ik We are talking about why Kurdish in rojava can speak Turkish

[thorny steeple]

Yes

[neon sierra]

are u from rojava

[neon sierra]

idk im confused

[tender vessel]

X is immoral, that's a realist claim. You're constantly using realist language in your moral anti-realist statements.
Anyhow, your social control morality argument reduces morality to propaganda. Moral claims wouldn't have truth-value, merely expression of power. So, your use of the word "wrong" is for manipulation, not a justifiable claim. Therefore, your moral judgments are logically unjustifiable.
In other words, you can't consistently deny normativity while making normative claims. It's like saying truth doesn't exist and this statement is true.

To be honest, your idea of morality isn't too different than the Chinese guy's one. As contradictory as it sounds, he also believes goodness and badness primarily stem from societal rule and control while also denying there is such thing as goodness or badness.

[manic juniper]

Faith restored

Is anyone else here or were you all affected

https://tenor.com/view/alexuyutov-ratchet-clank-gif-4691951813113375978

Even embeds gave up

[turbid dome]

hello

[thorny steeple]

[molten goblet]

Hiiii miss you guyss

Hru all

[neon sierra]

i got affected like 25 mins ago

[turbid dome]

The fundamental logic is morality only exists as a control mechanism, and I am saying that I am using a control mechanism to further my worldview. I am contending that my social control mechanism is superior to one which allows for Pdf files. Just because I believe objective morality doesn't exist, doesn't mean I don't believe anything can be determined right or wrong by my own self. You're trying to get to that point so as to not engage in a debate over where this all started, which was that I find pdfs to be wrong, whereas seemingly some here think pdf files are ok if they're a prophet or whatever.

[turbid dome]

yup

[turbid dome]

surviving, hbu

[neon sierra]

wait aint u darksalvatore

[thorny steeple]

We missed u tooooo

[turbid dome]

Also update: after looking more at the footage of the alleged drug boat strike, I don't think it's a drug boat.

[turbid dome]

I read the Venezuelan government claims the video was fake, when the US strike is against international law you would expect Venezuela to play victim and it would serve as a narrative boost for them instead. Instead they're saying it didn't happen.

[thorny steeple]

https://tenor.com/view/ekoi-ekoi-dancekid-dancekid-gif-10799637110820905144

[tender vessel]

Now we're going in circles.
First, control mechanism is a descriptive stance, not prescriptive. You're describing what is, not what ought to be. Now you could say "People should obey rules and laws". However, according to your own view, that "should" is not universal imperative. It's a conditional imperative. Judging universally based on this conditional imperative would be like saying in pre-historic eras, everybody was immoral because they didn't obey traffic lights, despite traffic light not being a thing at the time. This is obviously an absurd in all terms, i.e., not logically sound at all. So, it is illogical to make normative claims from your position.

Second, I don't agree prophet is PDF. You could claim that, but I simply can't argue against it because the mere discussion is forbidden in Discord. Meaning that arguing for or against is forbidden.

Sexual content involving minors: Discord strictly bans any sexualization of children, including discussion, advocacy, jokes, or memes.

However, it's irrelevant nevertheless; because in your worldview, you've got no grounding for making such moral judgments to begin with.

[mint parrot]

Now they are not doing anything right

[turbid dome]

The classic: "This is what your position is because it must fit cleanly into the boxes"

[high raven]

Terrible

[tender vessel]

No. That's a travesty.
I already explained how your own position doesn't work, you're invoking morality and then refusing to accept a moral argument.

[terse flare]

perfecto

[tender vessel]

Also, your response is not an argument at all.

[turbid dome]

And I already explained how there is no contradiction: "Just because I believe objective morality doesn't exist, doesn't mean I don't believe anything can be determined right or wrong by my own self." it is a stand in

[tender vessel]

It's just an accusation, although baseless.

[tender vessel]

And I explained why this doesn't work.

[terse flare]

no Logic

[turbid dome]

And I already explained it is a stand in

[tender vessel]

Namely, using conditional imperative as a universal one. It's logically absurd.

[tender vessel]

No you didn't. You just made an accusation with no intellectual merit, with all due respect.

[turbid dome]

The logic is "I think it is right, by my subjective opinion, and so people should be closer to this"

[terse flare]

so everyone go with his subjective opinion

[turbid dome]

I can't stop anyone from going by their subjective opinion, but I would argue their subjective opinion should more closely resemble mine

[tender vessel]

So, now you're switching to being opinions rather than societal control mechanisms. Amazing.
If it's just opinions, then it's not binding. Therefore, with all due respect, nobody cares about your opinion at this point, especially when people have completely different opinions on the matter.

[terse flare]

why it must be closely from your opinion

[turbid dome]

It can be both. The opinions of the ruling class will loosely align and they form morality as a societal control mechanism. I would rather have society conduct itself differently

[tender vessel]

That seems like it's a societal control mechanism only when I like it.

[turbid dome]

I believe my opinion is more correct (I don't use metrics as I don't believe it to be objective)

[turbid dome]

It's always a societal control mechanism

[tender vessel]

More correct implies a level of objectivity. You can't simply deny objectivity while saying it's correct.

[terse flare]

why should your opinion be the corrct one why not mine why not other one

[jolly agate]

He forgot to use the word delusion

[turbid dome]

It's correct because I say it is, there's no metrics or facts involved, purely because I like it

[tender vessel]

Then why don't you accept pre-historic societal control mechanism? They had a different one, and since it's always based on that, you can't argue against it.

Unless you wanna contradict your own position, which you did, and that's what I argued against.

[turbid dome]

Because I like mine

[spark kestrel]

whoever knows @pine thunder forget is she deserve to be banned?

[turbid dome]

I think there should be a different mechanism for societal control

[tender vessel]

So it's a matter of preference. Lol

[jolly agate]

These are called delusions, boss🫡🫡🫡

[terse flare]

is this rly answer its childish answer

[jolly agate]

Unless he can literally prove his point

[turbid dome]

It is for everyone, you prefer your moral code because god says so or whatever, I prefer mine because I say so

[jolly agate]

It was a childish argument from the start

[turbid dome]

I'm not imagining anything, so It's not. Self centered? Sure

[turbid dome]

What metric would you measure by and why is it the best? Otherwise I'll go with whatever I like

[jolly agate]

Delusions are when u already believe something to be true without them actually being

[tender vessel]

So then "it's a societal mechanism only when I like it". You're denying my points just to restate them. Lol
You're fundamentally judging based on preference.

[jolly agate]

U believing ur what u say is correct regardless of what the other person says

[turbid dome]

what am i deluding myself with exactly

[turbid dome]

No, It's always a societal control mechanism, I think societal control should look differently to current society. There is no contradiction

[jolly agate]

.

[turbid dome]

I believe morality is personal, what is the "correct" morality

It's whatever you say it is

And we can disagree or debate on why

but it doesn't change the fact that there is no enforcer of morality

[tender vessel]

No. That's a strawman. I don't even believe it's a matter of preference. Maybe I'd prefer drinking wine, but according to God, it's impermissible.
We as theists are moral realists. We don't believe it has anything to do with preference. In other words, moral goodness and badness is completely independent from what I like or dislike. For instance, a serial killer might like killing, but that wouldn't mean it's morally good (from a moral realist worldview, not your worldview).

[turbid dome]

Where do you get your morality from then

[tender vessel]

No. You're confusing both positions.
From the perspective of societal mechanism, the mere fact you oppose certain elements of the current rules or laws is an immoral act, even if based on preference.
From the perspective of preference, only societal mechanisms that align with your preference are moral, and therefore, morality is societal mechanism "only when I like it".

[tender vessel]

That's a different subject. We can discuss it once we settle with the ongoing one.

[turbid dome]

"From the perspective of societal mechanism, the mere fact you oppose certain elements of the current rules or laws is an immoral act, even if based on preference." No, I do not think that because it is a societal control mechanism it must be obeyed, I simply think that explains what morality is. Whether I like or dislike it or am immoral or moral in someone's worldview doesn't change that. "From the perspective of preference, only societal mechanisms that align with your preference are moral," Sure, but this doesn't mean the other ones aren't things that others think moral. I'm not saying I'm the only one with a sense of morality. You're confusing "it's a societal control mechanism" with "it must be obeyed" and not it simply being a descriptor of morality. "and therefore, morality is societal mechanism "only when I like it"." Based on a false understanding of the previous bits, but to reiterate, morality is a societal control mechanism regardless of if I like it or not, but I only believe something to be moral when I find it to be moral.

[tiny apex]

Holy cow what are you guys talking about

[terse flare]

so if i like steal things and i see that this is good thing for me and for my life so you cant stop me from doing it this is what you say

[turbid dome]

You're confusing me saying it's nothing more than a societal control mechanism that's an invented concept with me arguing that a specific action is immoral or moral because I find it to be

[turbid dome]

morality

[tiny apex]

Clearly you’re very passionate on that I like to see it 🤌 go off queen

[turbid dome]

I never said it can't be stopped or enforced. I personally think stealing could be moral or immoral, context dependending. Me not believing morality to be objective doesn't mean I couldn't use something else that is objective to determine whether you should face consequences.

[turbid dome]

"morality varies from person to person" does not mean there should be no enforcement of any rules ever

[terse flare]

why i will face consequences when everything is back to you so there is no law

[turbid dome]

what does that even mean

[terse flare]

how

[turbid dome]

It doesn't make sense

[terse flare]

why

[turbid dome]

Because it's grammatically confusing to me

[turbid dome]

as well as logically

[tender vessel]

That's still contradictory no matter how you attempt to escape this fact.
You can't have it both ways. They are inherently mutually exclusive. If things are only moral or immoral based on societal mechanisms, then your preference is irrelevant. If it's based on preference, then societal mechanisms are irrelevant. Having one necessarily excludes the other.
It's like saying civil disobedience is both moral and immoral, because it contradicts social order while being a preference by individuals. Ever heard of the law of non-contradiction? P and not P cannot be true simultaneously. In your case, an action cannot be moral and immoral simultaneously. It's either one or the other.

[terse flare]

when everyone have his own morality and will live with it so why there is law or court or prison ????

[tender vessel]

I feel like I'm constantly repeating the same points in different words as you keep repeating your points. So, for the sake of my time and your time. I'm disengaging.

[turbid dome]

"If things are only moral or immoral based on societal mechanisms" I'll reiterate this one last time because I've repeated this idk how many times, I'm saying that morality is a societal control mechanism, not that it being a societal control mechanism determines whether something is moral or immoral. I'm saying the determination of whether something is moral or immoral is based on my preference, with "societal control mechanism" describing morality

[manic juniper]

Because people can come in agreement with the laws to apply

This is a little thing called democracy

[turbid dome]

To enforce a common conception of morality

[terse flare]

so if most of people chose that kill or steal is a good this and they want to be it allowed so that is democracy too

[manic juniper]

Yes if they don't know better and they disregard human life completely I don't see why they wouldn't agree on it

[tender vessel]

Okay. Let's drop it because we're going in circles and I've already responded and point out the flaw in your reasoning.

[turbid dome]

Sure we can drop it

[terse flare]

so where is humanrights if somehow country chose to make kill and steal are legal ???

[turbid dome]

Human rights is a made up concept, I think it's a good concept, others can disagree. I think people should make a system to enforce human rights

[tender vessel]

Bruh! You're making very good points. Lol

[manic juniper]

Who spoke of human rights?

[terse flare]

why enforce them

[turbid dome]

Because I think it's good

[terse flare]

if everyone are free to faith what her want

why force

[manic juniper]

No this is the opposite of democracy

[turbid dome]

Everyone can believe what they want but I think what they believe what they want is wrong (if we're talking about those who do not like human rights) and believe people should have some basic decency and would like to enforce that

[tender vessel]

I feel like you're wrong, therefore you're wrong.

[terse flare]

democracy yes where is democracy if everyone want make it legal

[tiny apex]

Is morality based on legality im confused as to what the point is here

[manic juniper]

?

[terse flare]

rly is this your answer Are you sane?

[manic juniper]

No, just some of its enforcement but I guess they can't read

[turbid dome]

more like "I feel you're wrong to hurt people and I would like to enforce you not hurting people"

[tender vessel]

Identical.

[tiny apex]

Ohh yeah that’s true not really something you can disagree on

[turbid dome]

nope

[manic juniper]

Unless you think morality is objective, in that case you could disagree about morality being able to exist outside certain criteria

[turbid dome]

Just because someone has a different conception of morality doesn't mean I have to respect it. If an Israeli finds it moral to kill palestinians I don't think there is an objective metric to determine a rightness or wrongness, but I personally think they are morally wrong and would like to enforce my sense of morality of "killing palestinians is wrong"

[terse flare]

wow some democracy guys are worships democracy yay

[manic juniper]

?

[tiny apex]

Right I mean everyone holds different values and morals but it certainly doesn’t mean that they are ethical or okay and one way you can judge that is through legal practices

[terse flare]

why they are wrong come on why why israel will listen to your opinion and say ohh we are sorry madam we will do what you want and what you see it is good and it is wrong

[turbid dome]

I don't expect Israel to listen to my opinion, I find it wrong because I don't like settler colonial violence, genocide, etc. I would like to enforce Israel not existing

[terse flare]

whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[turbid dome]

Why what? Why I don't like settler colonialism, genocide? I believe in egalitarianism

[tiny apex]

Not saying you’re wrong but as a hypothetical how would you go about that? Since Israel is pretty established country with a lot of allies

[terse flare]

Power rules, not democracy or anything else.

[manic juniper]

Not much would change whether he thinks morality is subjective or objective

Btw you guys are supporting the Minecraft argument, he would be proud right now

[turbid dome]

Those allies have large populations who are becoming increasingly anti-Israel, the populations of those countries must turn against their politicians and turn allies to enemies. That's the only realistic path I see

[turbid dome]

Democracy is a distribution of power

[terse flare]

wo why should israel accept the egalitarianism

[manic juniper]

Sanctions and isolationism

[tiny apex]

Totally agree I like this stance settling the issue actually genocide would be a lot harder in practice though

[terse flare]

who care if he happy or sad idc

[tiny apex]

We aren’t world leaders here so we can’t really solve that ourselves

[terse flare]

with all my respect to you

[manic juniper]

Dealing with beginners is a difficult task

[terse flare]

and ??

[manic juniper]

Do you think Israelis would enjoy living like North Koreans

[tiny apex]

Its like deciphering a code

[tender vessel]

If you don't see how the second premise contradicts the first. I don't know what to say. You probably need to study metaethics a bit more.
Your first premise is that preference is the determinant, and therefore no one preference holds weight than another.
Now your second premise is enforcing your own preference, which means you believe it's universally valid, since you're imposing it on others, which ultimately contradicts the first.

It's inherently flawed and illogical.

[manic juniper]

Genuine question

[turbid dome]

I mean, as much as I dislike some of what @feral river argues for, the main difference between us on morality is what we consider to be moral and immoral and how we reach the conclusion of what is moral or immoral. I'm sure we couldn't be more opposed on that, which makes us in a sense opposites, but we both understand it to be a power structure, and understand the need for enforcement.

[manic juniper]

They would only survive off American gibs

[static oxide]

https://o7g.top/go?i=wwjyjz_5940989532_copy

[fiery valley]

we can also use "Moreover" , "in addition" , and a lot more🤍

[tiny apex]

I’ve got to hand it to you every time you write something you really write a lot very passionate about subjects I respect that

[terse flare]

no for sure israel will not like it but we all know that all power with israel so who can stop them from what they are doing

[turbid dome]

No, the first statement is that preference determines what I personally believe to be moral/immoral. The second statement is that I don't think just because everyone has a different sense of morality that no action should be taken against it.

[tiny apex]

That’s only if they wrote something before there was nothing else in that message but “and”

[turbid dome]

Everyone can have a different sense of morality and I can wish to enforce my own over their morality.

[fiery valley]

Thank you for adding a clarification to that !!

[manic juniper]

China and the EU trade less than 0,5% of what they produce to Israel as opposed to Israel trading over 23% with each, both of them can practically destroy Israel's economy with minimal losses

[terse flare]

thank you i appreciate that

[tiny apex]

Of course! You’re on the right track though

[turbid dome]

I personally believe murder is bad, if someone believes murder is good and commits a murder, it doesn't change that we have different morality if I try and get them jailed.

[manic juniper]

This would bring Israel back in time just as Cuba is, forcing them to be stuck with the current technology for the next 60 years

[fiery valley]

With pleasure, i haven't done anything !

[terse flare]

what about mama america ??

[fiery valley]

Thank you buddy !

[manic juniper]

I doubt it could cover all the losses, and they need to hand out even more gibs to Israel

[terse flare]

we all know that usa send billion of dollars to israel

[tiny apex]

Israel would crumble but that doesn’t mean the violence would stop though, in fact struggling societies tend to be more lawless

I think it would escalate the fighting in that region

[manic juniper]

Israelis would remember how it used to be before this unbalance, they would reform forcefully

[terse flare]

i think they will do it for their child israel

[manic juniper]

Unless they are just like Russia and they keep fighting despite everything, turning the country's economy into a war economy and eventually a collapse

[tiny apex]

You forget where they get the money though, taxpayers

[turbid dome]

It could but it would lead to revolt

[manic juniper]

Then it's not really good because a country with many nukes would collapse but it was bound to happen sooner or later, if not Pakistan then it'll be Israel

[tiny apex]

The world could reset no humans and after a while who knows maybe the world would prosper again

If nuclear war would ever happen

[manic juniper]

Sauropsidia

[tender vessel]

You can't justify enforcing your own preference unless you believe it's universally valid, i.e., morality is objective. If you believe it's a matter of preference and yet believe you can impose it on others, then you're necessarily saying your preference is universally and objectively better than others, which doesn't follow from the idea of morality coming from personal preference which means your own preference is nothing better than Hitler's own preference.
It's like saying I like chocolate ice cream, therefore, I'll force everybody to eat chocolate ice cream. It's almost as if you're saying chocolate ice cream is objectively better and everybody should eat it rather than any other flavor.

[terse flare]

so what about Uyghurs muslim in china is anyone will make anything about them i mean to help them

[tiny apex]

So what universal morals can we agree on then? Because it differs according to belief and culture

[tiny apex]

Bring dinosaurs BACK

[manic juniper]

Germany is restricting some of its manufacturing being moved to Xinjiang for that reason but it's difficult when most of the world depends on China

[tiny apex]

Isfrun are you a vet? You give me animal lover vibes

[manic juniper]

No I'm just a conservationist

I only like wild animals

[tiny apex]

What do you think about keeping animals in captivity?

[terse flare]

cuz they have more power and they have most powerful economic so no one will do anything for them cuz morality is relative

[manic juniper]

Sometimes it's needed to bring awareness and to keep an animal safe

As long as the animal isn't showing signs of altered behaviours it's good

[tiny apex]

Got it

[manic juniper]

It would be good if it could be stopped completely one day

Or at least really limited

But this would be an ideal world where no animal is endangered anymore

[terse flare]

okay why china should listen to west for Uyghurs

[tiny apex]

If it’s by hunting then yeah I agree but also I think it’s Darwin’s theory something about survival of the fittest

Some animals just can’t adapt and die off

[manic juniper]

Yes, but we can predict that the disappearance of a species will have consequences on the biosphere and consequently to our own crops and quality of life

Extinction usually takes place at slow rates unless there is a mass extinction going on, that's an anomalous event that brings serious instability to the entire ecosystem or worse, the entire biosphere

[tender vessel]

To sum up because I've dealt with all of these arguments a million times before. Personal preference is not universally binding, and therefore, imposing your personal preference on others is never logically justifiable.
It's 100% illogical.

[turbid dome]

To use the hitler example: there is no objective metric by which I could determine morality, there is nothing inherent that makes my preference better than hitler's. That being said, my preference contradicts Hitler and I think he is a barbaric monster. Me wanting to enforce my morality on hitler by stopping the holocaust and WW2 and not letting him have his freedom ever again is because I believe mine is better than other people's morality, which is inherent to morality, unless you think everyone is equally moral. It is not saying it is a universal rule to be applied, but rather that I personally would attempt to enforce mine. Enforcement is about conviction, not correctness

[turbid dome]

I have conviction that my morality is better, but I do not pretend it is universal

[tiny apex]

The idea that 6 million+ people should not be gassed, humiliated and murdered for belonging to a different religion should not be something we can debate about honestly like how do some people not accept that? it’s common sense 🤦🏽‍♀️

[turbid dome]

Yeah, I would say it's one of those things I don't bother debating for that reason

[terse flare]

so if im stronger than you i will enforce you to follow my morality cuz i I believe my morality is good

[manic juniper]

If your morality enables direct intervention why not

[turbid dome]

Yes, that's how society works. That's how it works whether it is stated or not. And If I find your sense of morality to be worse than I will work to change that

[terse flare]

and i will force to stop you from change it and will put you in prison cuz you try it

[turbid dome]

That is precisely how modern society works.

I disagree with it, but that's how it works

[turbid dome]

rip

[thorny steeple]

https://tenor.com/view/mum-pickmeup-scared-gif-5567056

[thorny steeple]

https://tenor.com/view/meowwah-gif-13320937482439878050

[high raven]

https://tenor.com/view/turkey-reaction-reaction-meme-my-reaction-to-that-information-my-reaction-to-that-information-meme-gif-25815689

[last copper]

@high raven hiiii

[olive herald]

Hruuuuuuuu

Hiiiiiiii

Wait nvm

( realized u r no SANNA

[severe burrow]

Now leaving islam?

[uncut tiger]

Go to college and then go for masters then get a job then make a family

How to escape the matrix

[feral river]

LRWEITP

Your morality my ass

If you want to impose something on me, try to talk in a way where 7.62mm is flying over the other side

And let me see how you are going to win with losing against a tiny regional power in that empty ground

🇮🇱

Btw I can enforce my morality ofc and I don’t need morality to he enforced, I enforce rule and law which is a lot reliable

And you will see what’s the consequences of violating it

[feral river]

I guess they can try their best to help, and you will see what’s the result since we had tons of cameras, machine guns, and tanks at the border

Let me see how powerful their help is

If it was indeed powerful than our fighter jets with warheads, we would back down on this one

their piece of crap can't even stop one bullet lmfao

such a waste

it's like saying when at war oh plz don't kill me I have super nice morality, everybody should act in my way, and we will make the world bet--- (gun shot)

cringe

I have the guns you have to act in my way

LAW/RULE WITHOUT ENFORCEMENT IS TOILET PAPER

who have the guns, who made the rules

[spice bobcat]

Someone give him his pacifier. 😭

[fresh flower]

Dw kitten I'm here

[terse flare]

This way of talk make me think that who talk to me is a child not an adult person

[feral river]

I don't give a fuck, who have the guns who rules, you have the gun say I'm child okay

I have the gun dare you can say that will be huge consequences upon you

and that is gonna be very hard

[terse flare]

Exactly you are kid this is not the way adult talk

[feral river]

enjoy that freedom of speech 🇺🇸

[terse flare]

When you become an adult i will talk to you bye bye

[feral river]

and don't lose that pivillage

[feral river]

I never expect you to talk me back but remember you have this pivillage

and don't cry when you lose it

let's see who rules the world, the one have the guns, or the one have the mouth

🤣

if your mouth is more powerful than 5.56x39 NATO, I surrender

what a loser mindset

[fresh flower]

Okay but there is no 5.56x39mm round

[feral river]

and I also have a mouth

[fresh flower]

There's 5.45x39, NATO standardised is 5.56x45

[feral river]

why not 7.62x39

why doesn't NATO standard use AK-type ammo

[fresh flower]

Two simple reasons, you can carry twice as many rounds with 5.56 as opposed to 7.62, and 5.56 has considerably less recoil

[feral river]

but isn't 7.62 more deadly it seems ?

I ever try guns with 5.56 and .22 it's obvious that 5.56 has more recoil

[fresh flower]

It is, after 300 meters. Below that it's more useful to carry and use intermediate cartridges like 5.56