🧠｜serious-chat

[thorny steeple]

im all good

alhamdulilah

How are you?

[thorny steeple]

Alhamdullah too

[thorny steeple]

Egypt is the 2nd economy in continent

[thorny steeple]

Africa is so poor buddy

They stole its resources

[thorny steeple]

Our resources are also stolen

we are super duper in mines

minerals

[thorny steeple]

By who?

[thorny steeple]

supremacist states

[thorny steeple]

One of the largest undeveloped copper-gold projects in the world, Reko Diq is owned 50% by Barrick, 25% by three federal state-owned enterprises, 25% by the Government of Balochistan of which 15% is on a fully funded basis and 10% is on a free carried basis.

Reko Diq is nestled in the Chagai district of Balochistan, the largest district by area, with close proximity to the Afghanistan and Iran borders. The district is characterized by arid and semi-arid terrain with vast deserts, mountain ranges, and sparse vegetation. The desert includes the Ras Koh Hills and the Chagai Hills. The district has a s

[thorny steeple]

I think Egypt was exporting raw cotton to India and importing spun cotton from there.

I am not sure is it india or not

[thorny steeple]

Uh

[thorny steeple]

So it's going to be a big project?

[thorny steeple]

In Pak we have taken public initiatives for public education, to pull them out of fake dreams of gov

[thorny steeple]

its from 1993 they finally reach agreement, otherwise they were giving so less to our gov

1993: The Balochistan government signed the Chagai Hills Exploration Joint Venture Agreement (CHEJVA) with Australian mining company BHP Billiton. BHP held a 75% interest, while the Balochistan government held 25%.  
2006: BHP's shares were acquired by the Tethyan Copper Company (TCC), a joint venture between a Canadian company, Barrick Gold, and a Chilean company, Antofagasta.

[thorny steeple]

What are the dreams?

[thorny steeple]

Pakistan is going good, Pakistan is wonderufl, World needs Pakistan, we will make Pakistan top economy in five years etc and so much

[thorny steeple]

What does this project have to do with pak?

I don't get it

[thorny steeple]

they want this mine in free, without giving anything, means they will mine but not give major to the people

[thorny steeple]

Pakistan is the hub of the universe

[thorny steeple]

exactly, a normal or avg Pakistani, they show this to them

[thorny steeple]

HOW WILL THIS HAPPEN 💀

[thorny steeple]

1993: The Balochistan government signed the Chagai Hills Exploration Joint Venture Agreement (CHEJVA) with Australian mining company BHP Billiton. BHP held a 75% interest, while the Balochistan government held 25%.  
2006: BHP's shares were acquired by the Tethyan Copper Company (TCC), a joint venture between a Canadian company, Barrick Gold, and a Chilean company, Antofagasta.  
2011: The Balochistan government rejected TCC's application for a mining lease, citing reasons such as the agreement being contrary to Pakistani law and public policy, and concerns about smelting and refining being done outside Pakistan. TCC claimed to have invested over $220 million by this point.  
Legal Challenges: TCC initiated international arbitration proceedings at the International Centre for Settlement of Investment Disputes (ICSID).  
2013: The Supreme Court of Pakistan declared the CHEJVA agreement void, stating that the Balochistan government had exceeded its powers.

The idea it self is impossible lol

[thorny steeple]

in new agreement they will give only 50% to Pakistan and 50% will be of Barricks

[thorny steeple]

What's the point of showing that? They don't want citizens to do revolution?

[thorny steeple]

For free?

[thorny steeple]

they want people to llive in fake

[thorny steeple]

This kinda happens in Egypt too.

[thorny steeple]

they will mine the share from profit will be gone to govt of Pakistan, which is half corrupt and the rest will be gone to Them

[thorny steeple]

they ban everything here, even they try to control the people

[shell lily]

You can't exploit them urself
So that's why you need others to do it for you
Or you want them to do it for free?

[thorny steeple]

I mean why did they give the stocks to Pakistan for free?

[thorny steeple]

the minerals belong to Pakistan, they will mine, at least 70% should belong to Pakistan

[thorny steeple]

I know a pak who didn't join university he said he will learn alone, looks like they do brainwashing in regular study

[thorny steeple]

Barrick Gold: 50% ownership and will be the operator.
Pakistani State-Owned Enterprises (OGDCL, GHPL, PPL): 25% ownership (collectively).
Government of Balochistan: 25% ownership (15% fully funded by the project and the Federal Government, and 10% free-carried).  
Key Features of the New Agreement:

[thorny steeple]

yes they produce they take questoning power or thinking power, what did an avg Pakistan, they follow same narrative by gov

In Last protest they shot down people

[shell lily]

So many kids don't even study
They work at a very young age due to poverty

[thorny steeple]

This has nothing to do with our discussion

[verbal torrent]

Ikr

[thorny steeple]

As an Avg or privately we do our own ventures, https://www.youtube.com/shorts/vB8OytIe0Hk

[thorny steeple]

I can't watch videos now

Like most of Pakistani we study our own selve then teach the rest of nation

[thorny steeple]

this video is about company where, they are trying to take major step to train people in latest technology, exposure and so on

[shell lily]

Blame ur country for not being a good negotiator
Not the foreign companies
They're businessmen they want to profit as much as possible

[thorny steeple]

the new gov is fake, its backed by americans

our elected gov is in jail

[thorny steeple]

It's better from nothing.
A man should start with himself then his family then the community

[thorny steeple]

Do you mean innocent America? 😰😰😰😰😰😰😰

[thorny steeple]

Did US ask for Imran Khan’s removal as Pakistan PM after he visited Russia?

Khan was sacked from power in April 2022 after he lost a no-confidence vote in parliament. He alleged he knew of the “cypher” while he was in office which, according to him, proved the US hatched a conspiracy with the help of his political opponents and the Pakistani military to remove him.

He was Shot

I have another class i will close

[thorny steeple]

yes thats what we do

[thorny steeple]

bye

[thorny steeple]

In Egypt, when Morsi was elected president through democratic elections, America intervened and supported the army in the revolution against him.

America the country of peace

[thorny steeple]

Good luck with that brother

[thorny steeple]

yes,

[thorny steeple]

they want control

[thorny steeple]

No don't say that, They introduced democracy to establish peace and freedom of citizens. 🇺🇸🕊️🕊️

[thorny steeple]

what does avg person in egypt see

Sayyid Al qut-b and Ikhwam as?

[thorny steeple]

It depends on the way the person thinks. I cannot give a general opinion.

[thorny steeple]

your personal

[thorny steeple]

Personally i don't really know about sayed qutb and ikhwan and what is their manhj but what i see that they caused destruction to countries

They did not make it better

[slender coral]

I don't think Islamism has ever made any thing better

[thorny steeple]

Really?

[slender coral]

Yea

[thorny steeple]

thats not true

you deviating

Islam gives purpose

[thorny steeple]

Yesterday you didn't read history and you can't read history in one day

[thorny steeple]

Religion gives purpose.

[thorny steeple]

Leave him he is just messing here and here

You won't get a benefit from this discussion

Change topics if things go south

[thorny steeple]

I mean the man called devil not you buddy

[thorny steeple]

Yeah i know i know

I'm just suggesting. Btw how are you guys

[thorny steeple]

Thanks for your understanding 🙌🏻
I am good wbu

[slender coral]

It's not about Islam itself, it's about Islamism. It just doesn't work.

[slender coral]

What the hell does this mean?

[thorny steeple]

Go read

[slender coral]

You know, you folk need to understand that old Islamic governance tended to be decentralized and pragmatic. Islamism is a modern idealistic ideology.

[thorny steeple]

I'm tired lol I have an english speaking class this evening

Hbu?

[thorny steeple]

What's your main language?

Wait i alr asked u how you were doing lmao

[thorny steeple]

Vietnamese

[thorny steeple]

I am having 2 exams after 10 mins or something

[thorny steeple]

Awww best of luck!

[thorny steeple]

I should say "i will have" right?

[thorny steeple]

No. It's a "phatic expression". You reply by using pre-available expressions :P

This is something i learnt yesterday

[thorny steeple]

I think i am American naturally i didn't learn that 😂

For example, "What's up" is not literal. It's rather something like "How are you doing"

[slender coral]

You can have purpose without religion, y'know. At least that would be more grounded in realistic stuff. What I often see is religious folk forcing their own interpretation for purpose on others because they think if they don't they will lose something in the afterlife.
Having purpose away from religion is better because usually in it's less good forms of it the person lives and let people live, focusing on their own hobbies and life. And in the more giving forms they live for their family, friends, or to fight for the rights of others.

[thorny steeple]

What do you mean?

[thorny steeple]

Yeah I agree but at the end of the day, purpose is subjective. I believe life is inherently meaningless and people must create their own meanings and purposes.

I don't like religious people forcing their beliefs on me too, but if they practice their religions in peace, I won't care. I'm an atheist but grew up in a culture deeply affected by religion (Buddhism)

[slender coral]

There's no denying that religion can give people more healthy lives, but I think it would be better for people to stay away from it. Especially when the religious belief system is like the many mainstream ones in the Muslim world.

[thorny steeple]

Oh? What do you mean?

[thorny steeple]

True. But again we cannot force them to choose what to believe in.

[slender coral]

Forget about it, I understood your message wrong.

[slender coral]

Yeah we can't, and we shouldn't. But I think we can share our views to give people more options or at least make them understand things better.

[thorny steeple]

Ah okay

[thorny steeple]

That's right, but sharing something does not mean people will understand - or even care/try to understand it

[last prawn]

Hwlllo

Whats topic u guys talking about

[thorny steeple]

My country's culture has been replaced by something else for the past 80 years - Communism. As someone who is not pro-Communism, I struggle to understand my fellow people

[slender coral]

Ik

[last prawn]

what? culture

[thorny steeple]

?

Vietnamese culture. Is that info enough for you?

[last prawn]

yeah

[thorny steeple]

Yeah

[slender coral]

I think Islam in particular is very bad. It was founded by some political leaders, it seems that gave it a strong fanatical aspect.

I'm not sure what exactly makes it different than other religions for its fanatical groups to be so influential like that.

[last prawn]

idk what going on

[slender coral]

All they talk about is control all the time. They are obsessed with. In the Arab world they say "Islam is a religion and a state".

[slender coral]

We were talking about the how religion give people porpuse. Now as you can see I pivoted to Islam.

[soft nest]

lmao literally every radical person ever.

I can soo relate.

[feral river]

Islam is a backward ideology existing in the form of religion

[soft nest]

lmao, so is every single other religion.

[granite current]

I'm new here, may I join?

[crude widget]

Welcome. Join us.

[granite current]

So, how's the convo now?

[slender coral]

We were talking about religion and porpuse, and Islam.

[thorny steeple]

Sure!

I'm new too

[slender coral]

These are my thoughts. What do you think? @granite current

[feral river]

due to technological limitness and developing standards, many people believes that in that past which they could get advantage inside of their Islamic empire, and using that to connect the people they conquested, it's just cultural assimilation at that time

[thorny steeple]

Funny thing is that Communism almost made Vietnam collapse and the youth learnt nothing from it

[thorny steeple]

I said it right without studying it

[feral river]

after that their Islamic empire fall, Ottomans, British, French came in and rule these people, nationalism also influenced people for having the idea of division between the religion and the state

[soft nest]

true... it's sad how much history contains for us but we never utilize it...

[feral river]

then we got British draw the line to set the border and a bunch of nationalists backed by former colonizers, their connection by religion is totally cut off

left with a religion which millions of people in different state committed

[soft nest]

and what's the conclusion?

[feral river]

conclusion is, they are fall because many reasons but most importantly ideological and technological limitness

[thorny steeple]

Ah

[thorny steeple]

You finished the exam?

[feral river]

it's quite hard to make people accept new stuff like new tech based on modern technology and standards in that religion

you simply do not have that interpretation

[thorny steeple]

You are struggling to make people accept Israelin terrorism

[feral river]

that's one of the main reason, second one would be the trend of ideology, and the state structure

[feral river]

I didn't say anything about that now

[soft nest]

I somewhat agree that religion sould be kept out side of government BUT "cultures fail because of Islam/religion" is simply unture... "Islamic golden age" (800AD-1200AD)

[feral river]

you can't go back to the past, the first statement I made is technological limitness

also recognition struggle counts but I didn't mention much

[arctic surge]

there was no concept of countries and govts back then

[soft nest]

yea obviously science contradicts religion often...

[soft nest]

bruv... what tf are you talking about? there were empires even 5000 years ago.

[feral river]

you have to know that it is because there was a limit in recognition based on observation, and there's almost no relatively objective perspective backed by science to interpret how the world works to boost productivity

[granite current]

I think the God of every religion leads humans to good ways but " types of HUMAN " have their own thoughts, some go the good way, some go the bad way

[arctic surge]

People didnt feel unity in the concept of empires of dictators

People do feel united with the concept of country.

Before that, people felt unity with religion

[feral river]

and the world develops with the productivity, a civilization with a high productivity would be considered an advanced one

you can't say we are all fucking good in the past

that's bullshit

[soft nest]

umm... I'm talking about "Islamic empire" so yea... they were united thank you.

[arctic surge]

yes, and that concept isn't needed to feel unity now.

[feral river]

that ideology, I mean Islam, does not have much advantage in technological/economic development

[soft nest]

In some countries it is.

[feral river]

and they are mostly being considered a backward one

[feral river]

not united after they collapsed

[soft nest]

give me some examples

[arctic surge]

They don't let their women work

[soft nest]

so did westerners

so did jews so did christans

any thing unique?

[arctic surge]

"did" is the keyword

not still do

[carmine shell]

haii

[soft nest]

Islam is 1400 years old and Christianity is 2000 years old, we can't just ignore the thousands of years can we?

[carmine shell]

we sure cannot

what is the context

lets not do castism guys

[soft nest]

christianity never evolved lol, more people are athiest and radical.

[carmine shell]

religionism?

[arctic surge]

there are sects of orthodox christians..and modern christians...it's pretty much evolved now

[soft nest]

that's a stereotype.

[carmine shell]

well am an arhiest too

[arctic surge]

atheists are depressed in life

[carmine shell]

which tells me you are a hindu? arent you?

[soft nest]

so are "liberal Muslims" that I used to be a part of, try again.

[arctic surge]

He will deny all of it

[carmine shell]

i can highly relate

[soft nest]

no they aren't lol?

they are open minded.

[wooden dove]

Any mod ?

[carmine shell]

why are we judging now

[wooden dove]

Nvm bro i got the permission

[granite current]

Everybody calm downnnnn

[carmine shell]

being open mindind doent have anything to do with being atheists

[carmine shell]

already calm

[soft nest]

@arctic surge I know you have been told from your childhood that "Christan good, Islam bad" but you can do better.

[arctic surge]

No, I haven't been told that

[granite current]

appreciate it😇

[carmine shell]

i think it has to do with who you are and not which religion you are

[granite current]

I agree

[carmine shell]

is what i think

[soft nest]

well, I suppose that's, respectfully, a lie.

[arctic surge]

Religion defines your moral values, your culture, your ideologies

[carmine shell]

your surroundings plays a lil important role too

[feral river]

there are bunch of vaild reports you can see some: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/07/29/the-religious-divide-on-views-of-technologies-that-would-enhance-human-beings/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

[carmine shell]

well

can we chnage the topic

[arctic surge]

Yes

[soft nest]

sure.

[carmine shell]

how is life

[arctic surge]

for this, we will have to go to chill chat

[soft nest]

life is epic.

[feral river]

I think if you don't even see that, it's not hard to imagine that religious people are mostly holding conservative views with a lower acceptance to the new tech and other new stuff

[carmine shell]

then i will brb

byee for now

[soft nest]

I agree with you on that.

[granite current]

let's talk about something relaxing haha

[arctic surge]

True that

[arctic surge]

then let's go to chill chat

[feral river]

even less if you count new social contracts like something about liberal movement, lgbt stuff well lol

that doesn't matter I believe

[soft nest]

that's all good but I don't understand why all the focus is on Islam when all the religious teachings are basically the same.

[arctic surge]

But religion is more about philosophy...

It gives you a philosophy as to why are we living?

Why should we even progress?

Is progress just an idea which has infected our head?

[arctic surge]

People around me who aren't Islamic are less religious.

Islamic people are in general more religious

[soft nest]

that's your personal experience.

[feral river]

well, first of all, religion is more about politics
second of all, philosophy is about question and religion is about belief, both are naturally contradicting each other, but sure we have religious philosophy which still established based on the religious context in the first place so that does not count dude

[soft nest]

your opinion.

[arctic surge]

Then how can we verify the truth

[arctic surge]

You didn't get it.

I think you should understand the origins of religion

[soft nest]

that's the neat part, we don't 😆

[feral river]

people naturally need authority and an organization body that establishes order, that's it

[arctic surge]

It's just one piece in the puzzle

[feral river]

people are social animals, that's the fact

[soft nest]

we can't just know the most anticipated answer to the most important question in a discord group chat, can we?

[carmine shell]

am back to serious

nobody is chill in chilll chat

[arctic surge]

Yes, and till then we can only generalize our experiences

[carmine shell]

what is love

[soft nest]

yea, I suppose we can...

[arctic surge]

that is a song too

[carmine shell]

i feel stupid askin this question

but what exactly is love

[arctic surge]

are u in love with someone?

[soft nest]

love... is love

[carmine shell]

idk how do i figure tat?

[carmine shell]

tat was the million dollor answer ngl

[arctic surge]

maybe you dont

maybe that may not be important

[soft nest]

haha, idk how to answer that lol.

[carmine shell]

i dont have to figure or am not in love?

[arctic surge]

yes, you can just see if it is something u want or not. Rather than putting a label on it.

[carmine shell]

does love actually exist?

[carmine shell]

dumb it dowm

[soft nest]

ahh soo philosophical. "it's not about the destination but the friends we made along the way" ahh convo lol.

[thorny steeple]

True science cannot oppose true religion.

[carmine shell]

down*

[arctic surge]

i mean, if u feel happy with someone....just be with them

[arctic surge]

kind of

[soft nest]

yes it does, I fully believe that.

[soft nest]

ummm... evolution.

[carmine shell]

i cannot commit with em just because i feek happy with them can i?

[thorny steeple]

On the importance of Ijtihad:

"The principle of Ijtihad was the most revolutionary thing that Islam introduced to the world, and it is still valid today. The time has come for Ijtihad to be restored so that the stagnation that has affected Islamic thought can be overcome."

On the need for intellectual renewal and the revival of Ijtihad:

"The greatest need of our time is the revival of Ijtihad. Without it, the intellectual and spiritual development of the Muslim community will remain stagnant. Islam must adapt to the modern world without losing its essence."

“Iqbal’s call for Ijtihad is not simply a call for legal reform. It is a broader plea for the intellectual revival of the Muslim world. He calls upon Muslim intellectuals to engage with the modern world through reasoning and judgment rather than blind adherence to past interpretations.”

[arctic surge]

You can spend more time with them

and see

[thorny steeple]

For example, in the seventh century AH, that is, seven hundred years ago. Doctors used to follow Aristotle's view on childbirth, which was explicitly opposed to Islam, and now modern science does not oppose it.

[soft nest]

but... evolution.

[carmine shell]

ohh really

[thorny steeple]

Evolution is nothing more than a theory.

[granite current]

I agree. Love exists, it depends on who has met it or not

[arctic surge]

Yes, you can figure everything out, without seeking something as "true love"

[soft nest]

and that sir... that's where you're wrong.

[arctic surge]

what's the difference between a theory and a fact

[carmine shell]

speaking of "true love"

wut is a true love

i sound stupid

[arctic surge]

that is the exact thing, I am suggesting u not to seek

[carmine shell]

dont be harsh chat

[random olive]

Pak

[thorny steeple]

Scientists say so. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[arctic surge]

let's go to chill chat

[soft nest]

I'm from Pakistan and trust me the times I've been told that Evolution is a deceit is mind blowing. It's a fact that even you can observe.

[carmine shell]

i ill stay away from it if ik wut it is

[carmine shell]

sure why not

[thorny steeple]

The truth is undoubtedly true, unlike theories.

[soft nest]

true.

[carmine shell]

too chill to be here\

[granite current]

We're waiting there, you never come hahaha

[arctic surge]

nooo...

[thorny steeple]

the theory of evolution is concrete but its weak as we go to macro. Science is still exxploring, again

[soft nest]

damn how many Pakistanis are here lol.

[thorny steeple]

theory can be changed time by time

[thorny steeple]

Scientists say it's a theory

[soft nest]

but the proven facts never change. like newton's law never changed on it's specific implications after Einstein's laws

[soft nest]

so is "Big Bang theory"... you believe in dinosaurs?

[arctic surge]

wait what

[thorny steeple]

For over 200 years, Newton's ideas went unchallenged, until Einstein conceived of first special and then general relativity, superseding and replacing Newton's ideas for motion and gravity. In all the time since, no other scientist has made even a comparable advance in revolutionizing how we conceive of the Universe

Einstine replaced Netwon

[arctic surge]

A law in science describes what happens under certain conditions, usually with a mathematical formula. It doesn't explain why it happens.
→ Example: Newton’s Laws of Motion describe how objects move if forces act on them, but they don't explain why gravity exists in the first place.

A theory in science explains why and how something happens, often using lots of evidence, experimentation, and reasoning. A theory is a deep, tested, and broad explanation. → Example: the Theory of Evolution explains how life changes over time through natural selection, based on tons of fossil evidence, genetics, observed species changes, etc.

[thorny steeple]

Yeah big bang is a theory also it does not oppose islam

https://youtu.be/eIByEC7EoPM?si=0QKOMM2Kfd3pC9mQ

[soft nest]

no, it didn't. appolo mission was based upon Newton's laws lol, don't just trust gpt lmaoo

[thorny steeple]

its not gpt its google

[thorny steeple]

https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/ask-ethan-will-physics-ever-see-another-einstein-or-newton-e381a6ebc85a#:~:text=For over 200 years%2C Newton's,we conceive of the Universe.

[soft nest]

alr so search up "space missions and newton's laws"

[thorny steeple]

the evolution at the macro level is wrong

[soft nest]

they work fine. but einstein's ones are faster and better.

[thorny steeple]

its wrong

[thorny steeple]

Evolution is like what doctors said back then .

[soft nest]

again we don't know rn but that doesn't mean it didn't happen lol.

[thorny steeple]

i dont take it serious since

you cant provide concrete proof and evidence for that

Watch this @soft nest
https://youtu.be/eIByEC7EoPM?si=0QKOMM2Kfd3pC9mQ

[soft nest]

@thorny steeple do you believe in evolution tho like "organisms change overtime"?

[thorny steeple]

True

[soft nest]

I can't understand it lol...

[thorny steeple]

I didn't have any

[thorny steeple]

It's translated to English, subtitles on.

[thorny steeple]

I guess English listening test?

[soft nest]

yes, that's why einstein found the defects and corrected those but newton's laws still "work" tho

but @thorny steeple do you believe in dinosaurs?

[thorny steeple]

Didn't search about that

But i have no problems with it 🤷🏻‍♂️

[soft nest]

I have an exam after 2 dats tho lol

[thorny steeple]

Dats?

[soft nest]

days

lmao

[thorny steeple]

Chill 💀

[slate salmon]

Newtonian mechanics is highly accurate in the vast majority of situations. The only exceptions occur when objects move at velocities near the speed of light and phenomena that appear at the quantum level. Einstein's theory didn't bring that much change in our daily practical life 🤷

[soft nest]

lol i get nervous when proving something lol...

[soft nest]

exactly... bruh, it's still applicable and works jsut fine.

[thorny steeple]

Watch thr video and tell me your opinion, it's not a religious video btw

[soft nest]

It looks like tho but I'm gonna watch it surely, and afterwards tell you my conclusions.

[thorny steeple]

@vapid cedar

[thorny steeple]

It's not trust me, maybe only the first minute it's 50mins tall

[soft nest]

okok

[thorny steeple]

Waiting for y

biaseness

[ocean tapir]

y e s.

[thorny steeple]

no evidence

bias

[ocean tapir]

y e s n ' t

[thorny steeple]

What do your videos have to do here? @ocean tapir

[thorny steeple]

he is kemalist

[thorny steeple]

What?

[ocean tapir]

1. None of your business, focus on your own topic.
2. It's a past matter between tidote and me.

[thorny steeple]

he defends ataturk

[ocean tapir]

The fuck you're trying to prove?

[thorny steeple]

Who even is that

[thorny steeple]

i answered ahmad

[thorny steeple]

Mustafa kemal

[ocean tapir]

https://tenor.com/view/atatürk-get-real-gif-17851739280781835342

[ocean tapir]

FATHER OF THE TURKS

[thorny steeple]

What about him?

[ocean tapir]

Well he is secular

[thorny steeple]

some turks dont prefer ata turk

[ocean tapir]

and thats why they are beefing with me

[thorny steeple]

Destroyed the Ottoman Caliphate?

[ocean tapir]

I don't prefer to call them "turks"

[thorny steeple]

he is anti Islam

[ocean tapir]

Saved it*

[thorny steeple]

but they are turks

[ocean tapir]

ANTI ISLAM? Anti islam my ass bruh which evidence says that?

"fuckataturk.com" ohh right

[thorny steeple]

Bain Of arabic language, persecution of Islamic Scholars

Ban of Quran

[thorny steeple]

While being a secular??

[thorny steeple]

foundedd kemalist turkey

[ocean tapir]

1. Arabic language is not a holy language
2. Quran is NOT banned, don't put random stuff from your ass.
3. Persecution of Islamic Scholars = Islamic scholars who revolted and sided with british.

he personally delivered qurans to the mosques in istanbul bro

[slate salmon]

You can't be both secular and a Muslim at the same time imo

[thorny steeple]

Arabic is language, you have to pray in arabic

[ocean tapir]

nope

[soft nest]

tbh, I do agree with most of his work as well, except for some things.

[thorny steeple]

Banning Arabic is banning quran without Arabic you can not pray or understand quran

[ocean tapir]

Nope. Quran or Hadiths don't say that.

[ocean tapir]

Fucking bullshit. I can read bible in English so I don't understand the bible?

[thorny steeple]

I dont agree with that

[slender coral]

Why though?

[thorny steeple]

You do not know jurisprudence then

[soft nest]

no, I am/was. the criteria of being a muslim is very small.

[ocean tapir]

Give me a valid proof and I'll say it.

[thorny steeple]

every madhab say that

[slender coral]

Isn't a Muslim someone who believes in a monotheistic god and Mohamed?

[soft nest]

you're entitled to disagree bro.

[ocean tapir]

Madhab isn't a valid proof nor an islamic proof.

[thorny steeple]

It is

[ocean tapir]

Just some random muslim dude giving orders are not a trustable source dude.

[thorny steeple]

Your argument is weak. The meanings of the Qur’an can only be deduced in Arabic, and Arabic cannot be translated literally into English. When the Qur’an was translated, they only translated the general meaning, and literal translation is forbidden.

[thorny steeple]

`` I even prefer brıtısh colonıalısm above atatürk
let brıtaın colonıze turkey not atatürk
turkey should be colonızed
sometımes colonıalısm ıs good`

there are some people who like ata turk that much

[slender coral]

Muslim fundamentalists talk like they were smoking hookah with god and chatting about what he wants from people at some point.

[ocean tapir]

Kadir Mısıroğlu said this and he is a fucking idiot.

[soft nest]

not that's extreme.

[ocean tapir]

And he is an anti-ataturk

[thorny steeple]

turk says that

[thorny steeple]

Consensus is an evidence, you have not studied the principles of jurisprudence then

[thorny steeple]

being anti ata turk some people like that

[ocean tapir]

Loving your mom is also good then bastard

[soft nest]

but we can't generalize it, can we?

[ocean tapir]

You are directly assaulting my culture here.

[thorny steeple]

Didn't I tell you to go read?

[ocean tapir]

Wher were you from by the way? Afghanistan? Pakistan?

[thorny steeple]

you choose Deen or not

Just tell me

[soft nest]

woah woah, calm down

[soft nest]

?

[ocean tapir]

He directly assaults my culture here.

[slate salmon]

Being Muslim? Yes. Being Mu'min?No.

[shadow zenith]

Wow, guys. Can’t you be serious? This chat is about discussion not insulting

[slender coral]

You need that more than me.

[soft nest]

yea obviously.

[thorny steeple]

You prefer Islam or this dunya

[thorny steeple]

Yeah yeah i see 😂

[ocean tapir]

Some random idiot from Pakistan is hating Ataturk while not knowing how much he did for MY country and how he saved MY HONOUR from being a slave to the western powers.

[soft nest]

I'm not entitled to tell you that, that's my opinion and respectfully, you souldn't care.

[ocean tapir]

Solely depending on some "article" he read from "fuckataturk.com"

[thorny steeple]

@vapid cedar thats why I left it to a turk to handle you

[thorny steeple]

#🛂｜report-help enjoy the report

[ocean tapir]

He ain't a turk dude, he didn't understand anything about my turkish sentences

[thorny steeple]

He is turk, he german

[ocean tapir]

Then why can't he understand turkish?

[slate salmon]

You have to abide by all the teachings of Islam if you want to be a Mumin. If you don't consistently, you may be considered as fasiq

[slender coral]

@ocean tapir brother chill a bit. Cultures aren't sacred. Let them criticize all they want, it won't hurt it.

[soft nest]

bruv, just calm down.

[thorny steeple]

he lives in Germany

[ocean tapir]

Thanks, I'll enjoy it and put it in someplace of my body gladly.

[ocean tapir]

That explains it.

[soft nest]

but every muslim would go to heaven.

[ocean tapir]

Just give me a turk that LIVES in turkey.

[thorny steeple]

he is turk

[ocean tapir]

Dude past 3 generations he is german.

[thorny steeple]

you will tease them by putting htme in jai

[ocean tapir]

And he doesn't know anything about Turkish culture.

[ocean tapir]

Dude you are from Pakistan.

Know your limits. I know my country better than you.

[thorny steeple]

@thorny steeple Kindly answer him

[thorny steeple]

Thats why i ddint argue with you, let a turk debate with you

[slender coral]

This isn't going anywhere folk. Change the topic.

[ocean tapir]

And please let that "turk" speak and understand turkish and have a turkish mom and dad and actually live in Turkey

[upper peak]

Yes especially those who wear coded dresses and pray .

[thorny steeple]

You cannot insult ataturk in turkiye there are turks in turkiye who hate ata turk

[ocean tapir]

Turks in germany are the stupidest people I've ever met, in Germany they are pro socialist while in Turkey they are literal most right wingers ever.

[ocean tapir]

I ain't a cop dude.

[soft nest]

exactly.

[thorny steeple]

you can report them

[ocean tapir]

Dude 😂

That's why you don't talk about a stuff you don't know. That's not how it goes in Turkey

[thorny steeple]

One of the guy is already suffering ffor doing that on twitter

[ocean tapir]

You are from Pakistan. I know my country better than you.

[thorny steeple]

I put a turk here, not my self

[ocean tapir]

Then that means he didn't "criticize" him, he "swore" him

[slate salmon]

yeah. Those who are Mumin will enter paradise directly; others will enter after their punishment

[thorny steeple]

This is what we call arrogance. God is severe in punishment, but He is also forgiving and merciful.
Being a Muslim does not prevent you from entering Hell. It was mentioned in the hadith that the first to enter Hell will be a mujahid, a reciter of the Qur’an, and a scholar, but they did not purify their intentions for the sake of God.

[slender coral]

What a civilized discussion we are having here 🙂

[ocean tapir]

Crticizing Ataturk is not banned, publicly swearing or harrassing is banned.

[thorny steeple]

im currentlyu leacing it here

[soft nest]

yea exactly.

[ocean tapir]

I'm about to lose my manners in any second

[upper peak]

Yes , and Allah will uplift poverty and other crises..

[slender coral]

You lost it already bro. Just don't engage.

[ocean tapir]

i aint beefing with those desert bahhawis bro

good luck

or so-called "turks" from berlin,germany

[limpid imp]

@ocean tapir Cool down a lil bit brother.

[soft nest]

right wingers are always racist?

[thorny steeple]

See @limpid imp

[ocean tapir]

I'm also a right wing and I didn't say anything about racism

[ocean tapir]

Aight, apologies gang, but my culture is directly harrassed so I lost a bit there

[soft nest]

"desert bahhawis" nice.

[upper peak]

What happened bro , let them argue 😭

[ocean tapir]

bahhawi doesnt mean anything 😭

[thorny steeple]

With respect

[ocean tapir]

it is not a word 😭

[limpid imp]

You can debate and put your facts forward but no insult to anyone will be tolerated.

[upper peak]

Ooh I see.😅

[soft nest]

idk fam but that sounds racist.

[ocean tapir]

Alright, message taken sir

[soft nest]

nice. then apply the rules bruv

[ocean tapir]

But please also remind them to put facts forward to my front instead of harrassing Ataturk

[thorny steeple]

Thanks for calming him down. 🙌🏻🙌🏻
@limpid imp

[soft nest]

"harrassing ataturk" 💀

[slender coral]

Muslim folk have been very religious in the past decades, they have always been more connected to their religion more than others. See where they are at now.

[thorny steeple]

No...? Nvm

[thorny steeple]

The facts: a secular man saved ottoman empire

Why is the islam debate still ongoing

[thorny steeple]

@thorny steeple

[thorny steeple]

These videos reminds me off self development sessions

leave turkish debate there is no ending

[upper peak]

Then and now the time period is different.
So stay with the same attitude then .

[soft nest]

debates are for learning, and maybe that's why.

[ocean tapir]

Everything in that video is facts brother

[slender coral]

It isn't about Islam now. It's a group of Muslims beefing with a nationalist secular Turk.

[thorny steeple]

Should i answer?

[ocean tapir]

lmao that's right, im also a muslim gang 😭

[slender coral]

They don't like Ataturk, but he is a fan of the man.

[thorny steeple]

yes, im going away now, its important, but anagua is troller too

[soft nest]

lmaoo, but with different political ideology which is respectable.

[thorny steeple]

So why should i answer a troller 💀

[soft nest]

who esle is a "troller"

[thorny steeple]

to teach her

When will you watch the vid buddy? @soft nest

becuase im leaving now

[ocean tapir]

So I think the issue is that I'm a secular and I support everybody, without looking at their race or religion or anything, should live freely and say whatever they want to say. I support democracy and freedom so that everybody has a right to manage the country without looking in between two lips of one man.

I'm a Muslim, I pray, I read quran, I acknowledge Allah, and Mohammad as a prophet. But I'm also a secular. By secular I mean "Whether somebody is a Christian, Jew or Muslim should have the same voice upon managing a country as long as they are from the same nationality."

[thorny steeple]

True

[thorny steeple]

Haha what? Secular turk?

[slate salmon]

"Pray as you have seen me praying." (Sahih al-Bukhari 631)

The Prophet Muhammad used to pray in Arabic. All major schools of thought agree that Salah (prayer) and Adhan (call to prayer) should be performed in Arabic. The Salaf prayed in Arabic, and the majority of scholars from Ahlus Sunnah wa al-Jama'ah, as well as many Shia scholars, concur with this practice.

Hence, the statement of a dude, " Nah, I'll pray in Turkish," is nothing but stupidity

[thorny steeple]

Even the Kharijites used to pray and read the Qur’an.

[soft nest]

bro I am, it's been 5 mins and my flipping attention span is one of a goldfish

[thorny steeple]

That country literally has their flag related to islam

[ocean tapir]

Sahih-al-Bukhari is not a holy book, so it's words are not holy as well.

[ocean tapir]

So what? I'm not a muslim?

[thorny steeple]

deviated people you know

[ocean tapir]

I'm as muslim as you are.

[thorny steeple]

Mostly yeah 🤷🏻‍♂️

[soft nest]

wait what? you guys are saying being a secular makes you a non-muslims?

[ocean tapir]

If your understanding of "Islam" is solely hating Ataturk and defending a radical islamist authoritarian regime, then I'm not a muslim.

[upper peak]

So it's all about muslim vs muslim ?? 👀😬

[slender coral]

That's great bro. And I understand your feelings, but you need to understand that public figures are subjects of criticism and controversy, especially people who changed a lot like Ataturk. Don't let criticism or ridicule toward him or your country make you angry, it won't lead you anywhere.

[slate salmon]

Rejecting sahih Hadith invalidates your Muslim identity. Your ignorance is clear

[thorny steeple]

Secularism is opposed to Islam and democracy is opposed to Islam.

[ocean tapir]

Just because I support freedom and civil rights of everybody people are telling me that I'm not a muslim gang.

[thorny steeple]

mufti can tell you, there are mutazility who were progrssive

[slender coral]

Yea. Haven't heard of the controversy around Ataturk in the Muslim world?

[soft nest]

so Pakistan is a kafir country?

[ocean tapir]

Secularism is not opposed to any religion. Laicite is. And even after Mohammad the leaders are elected????

[soft nest]

as well as Bangladesh and Indonesia>

[ocean tapir]

Can you explain that to me?

[slender coral]

Just ignore those people, or fight back but with well structured arguments not insults.

[thorny steeple]

no, they arent mutazility, they are Salafis, and Sufis mostly or mix

[thorny steeple]

Define secularism

[soft nest]

bruv, I'm talking about democracy.

[thorny steeple]

Greek philosphers hate democracy

[fierce plover]

there are islamists in this chat

[thorny steeple]

If the people choose that alcohol is permissible, then it is permissible. Religion has no role here. This is democracy.

[soft nest]

and? I don't really care about that...?

[thorny steeple]

Then study Islam, You said you dont want to tell what you choose

[soft nest]

and don't you think people should choose whom their leader is?

[ocean tapir]

Secularism: Upon managing a country, no people will be questioned about their race, religion and body colour. They can all live their religions freely, they can all vote for their country as long as they are from the same nationality. Religion and state affairs are seperated. State is not an alive being, so it can't have a religion. People can.

Laicite: State affairs should permamently ceased from any religion.

[thorny steeple]

Brother i am going to pray dhur @thorny steeple

[fierce plover]

do not study islam if you are not arab, you better embrace paganism

[thorny steeple]

Socrates: "Democracy shall fall due to attempting to please everybody.

The poor shall desire wealth of the rich. And democracy shall grant them wealth.

The young shall desire respect of the elders. And democracy shall grant them respect.

The foreigners shall desire privileges of the natives. And democracy shall grant them privileges.

The women shall desire to be equal to men. And democracy shall grant them equality.

The crook and the wicked shall desire to rule. And democracy shall grant them important positions within the Republic.

And when finally the crook and the wicked are elected democratically, there shall be worse tyranny than has been during any monarchy or oligarchy.

[ocean tapir]

Socrates if from 600 BCE gang.

[soft nest]

I'm literally doing exactly that rn. y

[ocean tapir]

The time has changed, wake up.

The year is 2025 now. Not 600 BCE

[thorny steeple]

he is still valid

[ocean tapir]

For me, no.

[thorny steeple]

No, the leader is determined by the standards of Islam, not by the standards of people who love whims.

[soft nest]

and you're telling me that decomracy is against islam when many muslim countries have democracy.

[ocean tapir]

Literally.

[ocean tapir]

So do you think the only perfect muslim country is Afghanistan?

[thorny steeple]

I didn't claim that they are right though.

[soft nest]

so we don't get to pick? what if the leader is cruel?

[ocean tapir]

When they execute women in football pitches?

[thorny steeple]

No. I don't follow Islam

[thorny steeple]

I didn't search about Afghanistan.

[thorny steeple]

Sometimes the right path isn't the easier one,
but it's the one where you will meet yourself fully.

[soft nest]

so they are kafir then? bc you said this secular guy is non- muslim?

[thorny steeple]

@thorny steeple Allah Hafiz, leave them they will not leave you\

[soft nest]

that's crazy bro...

[thorny steeple]

Pray now

[ocean tapir]

It doesn't have a democracy and the leader is selected by the so-called standards of "Islam". Then according to you it's a perfect Islamic nation, however they execute and hang women in football pitches.

[thorny steeple]

I said by Islamic standards, true Muslim leaders are compassionate and just, like Abu Bakr al-Siddiq and Omar ibn al-Khattab.

[ocean tapir]

And how can the people measure it

[soft nest]

bro they are the most rightious but whay about the other cruel muslim leaders?

[soft nest]

tbh now, you're more logical here...

[thorny steeple]

I didn't say he is not a Muslim, i said "mostly" .

[ocean tapir]

What about the ones who kill their own brothers? What about the ones who hang women just because some of their hair was seen from outside? They were hang in a football pitch brother.

[soft nest]

how do you know? did you ask god?

[thorny steeple]

I won't get my infos from you.

[ocean tapir]

I just support freedom for all

[soft nest]

and I respect that.

[ocean tapir]

Ah, but they are solely factual buddy. Are you escaping from evidence that your "Islam" is not the real "Islam"?

[thorny steeple]

This is also a weak argument. The Quran tells us that when a person mocks religion, he is an infidel. So if a person mocks religion and is considered an infidel, will you ask me, “Did God tell you that he is an infidel?”

[ocean tapir]

I even have photos but they are too bad to send.

So this is a perfect muslim country?

[thorny steeple]

I said I didn't search, u want me to go to a discussion that i don't know about.

[slate salmon]

17 years ago 🫡. Bring something new blud

[soft nest]

so is "democracy is not good argument" cuz you don't have any other better system

[ocean tapir]

Then don't defend it. Afghanistan is a perfect nation for you. It doesn't have democracy, everybody defends that the leader of Taliban is "just" and perfect for "Islam". Exactly what you told. What's the issue?

[ocean tapir]

Why? Those killed women are not under an Islamic government?

[thorny steeple]

I said that I have the system of Islam, and Islam opposes democracy and secularism.

[ocean tapir]

Whether it's 17 or 1 years ago, those women are killed by so-called muslims.

And their stories are long-forgotten.

And some guy just tells that "bring something new bud" with some emoji while their stories are ended by a kalashnikov.

[soft nest]

but what about ''thinking logically"?

[thorny steeple]

What's about it?

[slate salmon]

As if not a single woman wasn't killed in any war. Bring something new

[ocean tapir]

According to what evidence you say that? Can you give me evidence that Islam is opposed to democracy?

[ocean tapir]

It's not a woman killed during a war, that area was not a warzone and she is executed.

Now you see it.

Do you think that it's a war zone?

[thorny steeple]

In a Muslim state, the rule is for Islam, not for the people. If the people choose that adultery is permissible, then it is permissible, does not this contradict Islam? @soft nest

[soft nest]

is democracy better, or "the family legacy system" better?
a system where you get to choose or why you're forced upon a leader

[soft nest]

THAT'S AN IDEAL STATE, WHICH IS NON-EXISTANT. thank you.

[random olive]

Do You got a problem tho

[ocean tapir]

If the people want it, you can't say anything about it. You can't sin or do good for other people. Even Mohammad prophet can't save his own daughter from her sins. You shall focus on your own duties and lifestyle.

[soft nest]

and no, democracy is not that.

[random olive]

Or r u just saying 👀

[ocean tapir]

And like dani said, it's not democracy gang

Democracy is not allowing public n*dity just beacuse everybody wanted so

Democracy also has manners and civilization

[soft nest]

yes I have a problem, when you don't get to pick a leader, you fall into the hands of an arrogent leader. and the abbasi, umia leaders were almost all of the above lol

[random olive]

Who tf is abbasi

[shell lily]

The question is does islam support this absolute freedom you're talking about?
If you support it and islam doesn't that's a contradiction

[soft nest]

yep, democracy has some strict humanatarian laws backed by UN

[soft nest]

abbasid khilafa gang, search it up

[thorny steeple]

Surah an-Nisa'
65. But no, by your Lord, they will not believe, until they call you to arbitrate in their disputes, and then find within themselves no resentment regarding your decisions, and submit themselves completely.

5:49 And so judge (you O Muhammad SAW) between them by what Allah has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad SAW) far away from some of that which Allah has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Fasiqun (rebellious and disobedient to Allah).

[ocean tapir]

This doesn't prove anything.

[thorny steeple]

If you believe in quran you have to believe in that

[ocean tapir]

Are you telling me that I'm away from Allah?

[thorny steeple]

Did you even read the verses?

[soft nest]

well, I don't so my point is still there.

[ocean tapir]

Dude, I read it twice and still it doesn't prove anything.

And let me prove it.

[thorny steeple]

Secularism and democracy are incompatible with Islam. Don't change the facts for the sake of some Western appearances.

[slender coral]

I know. Just thought you might have heard of it.

[thorny steeple]

but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad SAW) far away from some of that which Allah has sent down to you

[ocean tapir]

"Allah's Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs.", in this sentence it says that Allah will punish solely them. Not a whole culture.

[thorny steeple]

.

[thorny steeple]

I finnished my side, it will take you nowhere

[random olive]

What does that have to do with Pakistan and Pakistani people

[ocean tapir]

Then Germans and Americans are doing a lot of sins, why is nothing happening to them?

And you are not responsible for other poeple.

You are only responsible for yourself.

[soft nest]

it doesn't, It has to do with Islam.

[thorny steeple]

They are very religious and he has some problem with Religiois

You say if people want it no problem

Allah says and follow not their vain desires
@ocean tapir

[ocean tapir]

We do not have any problem with religons.

[ocean tapir]

As Allah says, I will follow Mohammad's teachings and I won't sin, but what if a random person that I don't even know of sins? Why am I responsible?

[thorny steeple]

If iam the ruler i am responsible ofc 😂

[soft nest]

OH NOO, I'M PAKISTANI AS WELL my bad that' why I was surprised my bad lol

[ocean tapir]

isnt realted.

related*

[thorny steeple]

I will not discuss anymore for today, i didn't pray yet, i am wasting my time

Bye 👋🏻

[thorny steeple]

yep, I told you

Allah Hafiz

[ocean tapir]

I hope Allah will give you true insight about humanity brother.

[thorny steeple]

Thanks

[ocean tapir]

And realize that I'm also a muslim as well as you

[slate salmon]

I checked it out, The Taliban executed people for crimes like murder, adultery, apostasy, theft, and homosexuality. So, giving capital punishment is a crime if you don't like it

[thorny steeple]

I hope that for you too 👋🏻

[ocean tapir]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Farkhunda_Malikzada

[shell lily]

I can assure you that you read no scholars opinion on this matter
You're just having some opinions without even checking if they suit your religion or not

[ocean tapir]

Islam's official sources are these:

1. Allah's words : Quran
2. Mohammad's words and actions.

There are no other official sources for Islam.

A random persian muslim guy can say anything, it is up to you to believe or not.

[shell lily]

Do you know the place of scholars in islam?
I doubt it

[slender coral]

Which scholars exactly? The Sunni ones, the Shi'i ones, the Ahamadi ones, or the Sufi ones?

[ocean tapir]

Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi
İbn- Rüşd
İmam-ı Gazali

I know many of them, but they are the turkish names

I do not defend a point that I can't defend buddy

Or a topic that I don't know well of

[shell lily]

Im sunni so i fellow sunnis

[ocean tapir]

What about Shi'is? They are also schoolars but they say really different things?

[slender coral]

What makes you Sunni? Why should one choose Sunnism?

[shell lily]

And everyone follows the scholars that belong to their sect

[ocean tapir]

So according to Shi'is in some parts you are not a real Muslim

[thorny steeple]

21:7 Ask the people of knowledge, if you do not know.

[shell lily]

It makes more sense to me

[shell lily]

According to some sunnis shias are not Muslims

[hot leaf]

average hasbara moment

It's funny how you say that after its announced that 52k palestinians died

you know for a fact the world will be 100 better without israel

[slender coral]

You know that secular Muslims find their interpretation of Islam make more sense to them too, right?

[shell lily]

You follow just Allah's words and Muhammad's actions
You changed ur mind all of a sudden

[hot leaf]

taking over a land to make an ethno state for other people

[ocean tapir]

No, I just told you some scholars that I know of. Not because I follow them

Find another argument and come back

[shell lily]

Do you knownthat even some minority sects make more sense to them?even tho for the rest they dont make any sense
Its about the majority acceptance
If most scholars accept it then you're on the right path

[shell lily]

They support your ideology u mean?

[ocean tapir]

nope, i just "know" them

nothing else

[shell lily]

Which proves my point

[ocean tapir]

i know them, i researched them, and i disagree with them.

[shell lily]

You just have an opinion and you want to prove its legitimacy

[slender coral]

Ad populum fallacy refers to a claim that something is true simply because that’s what a large number of people believe. In other words, if many people believe something to be true, then it must be true.

[ocean tapir]

you are just putting random bullets so that one might hit

[ocean tapir]

I can literally prove its legitimacy with quran buddy. Quran says "only sources are Allah's words and Mohammad's actions." nothing else

[slender coral]

A big number of people believing in something doesn't give it more legitimacy.

[ocean tapir]

“I am leaving you with two things. As long as you hold fast to them, you will never go astray: They are the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Prophet.”

• Hadith

Source: https://www.diyanet.gov.tr/ar-SA/المؤسسية/التفاصيل/11273/cuma-hutbesi-islamin-iki-ana-kaynagi-kuran-ve-sunnet#_ednref1

Turkish Republic Religion Affairs

[shell lily]

In islam we reach out to scholars in every matter
And we're advised to do so
If that doesn't make sense to you then just ignore it

[ocean tapir]

https://www.diyanet.gov.tr/ar-SA/المؤسسية/التفاصيل/11273/cuma-hutbesi-islamin-iki-ana-kaynagi-kuran-ve-sunnet#_ednref1

You might have to translate it

[thorny steeple]

21:7 Ask the people of knowledge, if you do not know.

[slender coral]

The secular guy here ignores it when it doesn't make sense to him too.

[ocean tapir]

“I am leaving you with two things. As long as you hold fast to them, you will never go astray: They are the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Prophet.”

• Hz. Mohammad (Saw)

[shell lily]

It gives it high rate of legitimacy
Even tho it can be false but its legitimacy is high:))

[ocean tapir]

Mohammad doesn't talk about any schoalrs here. He knows that one day Constantinople will be conquered, but doesn't know any Islamic scholars?

[slender coral]

And that is ad populum.

[ocean tapir]

Of course he knows. And he only tells us to follow the book of Allah and his words, nothing else.

[thorny steeple]

So, have you learned grammar, morphology, rhetoric, word meanings, chains of transmission, etc. in order to understand the Qur’an and Sunnah? No you didn't

[slate salmon]

This is an accusation against the Taliban that has no evidence to support it, and they have denied these claims. The second incident involves a mob, and the criminals involved have been arrested. Ig you have a lot of hatred towards them without knowing them in detail, I'm not a fan of the Taliban either. I'm just responding because there is misinformation that shouldn't be spread.

[ocean tapir]

Okay, your ticket to Afghanistan is from me, then.

[ocean tapir]

Yes, I went to mosque to learn arabic and quran for 6 years straight.

I can read and understand Quran well.

[thorny steeple]

Islam or Your choice

which one you choose @ocean tapir

[shell lily]

"So ask the people of knowledge if you do not know."
(Surah An-Nahl 16:43 and repeated similarly in Surah Al-Anbiya 21:7)

[ocean tapir]

Islam obviously. And my choice is under Islamic category.

[ocean tapir]

“I am leaving you with two things. As long as you hold fast to them, you will never go astray: They are the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Prophet.”

• Mohammad (saw)

I even gave you source

[shell lily]

It's up to him
I didn't force

[ocean tapir]

I literally answered to any question I heard

Nah gang, don't cry like little babies when I prove my point with literal facts instead of nothingness. I'm done here. Go keep crying.

[shell lily]

I gave you something right from quran

[ocean tapir]

And come to me when you have good sources.

[slate salmon]

Indeed, We revealed the Torah, containing guidance and light, by which the prophets, who submitted themselves to Allah, made judgments for Jews. So too did the rabbis and scholars judge according to Allah’s Book, with which they were entrusted and of which they were made keepers. So do not fear the people; fear Me! Nor trade my revelations for a fleeting gain. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the disbelievers.(5:44)

[ocean tapir]

I already ask people of something I don't know, thanks, I follow it.

goodbye gang, good crying

[slender coral]

I'm not a Muslim, you can correct me if I'm saying something wrong @ocean tapir.
There's no Hadith nor verse telling people to learn all of this before deciding what's right or wrong. These stuff were emphasized and some of them were made by certain sects (chains of narration and علم الرجال and all of that bs) after the death of Mohamed a century or so later. They were source of conflicts and fragmentation.

[slate salmon]

This one should be sufficient if you have a minimum understanding

[shell lily]

"The scholars are the heirs of the Prophets. The Prophets did not leave behind gold or silver coins, but rather they left behind knowledge. So whoever takes it has taken a great share."
(Abu Dawood, Tirmidhi, and others — authentic hadith)

[ocean tapir]

In Monster Johan's sister, Anna doesn't wear hijab. So why are you watching it, are you a Kafir? Why are you looking at her body?

nah why am i keeping to beef gang, have fun gang

[slender coral]

Some people would unironically say this lol

[ocean tapir]

lmao literally

[shell lily]

He ignored again

[slate salmon]

Can't win argument, does personal attack, Nice try

[shell lily]

Now he's making fun

Can't have a normal debate
That's unfortunate

[slender coral]

You guys don't realize he has been talking here for a long time?

[ocean tapir]

Abu Dawood, Tirmidhi, and others — authentic hadith) are not official Islamic sources. Quran doesn't say anything about them and prophet Mohammad also doesn't say anything about them. Thanks, argument refuted. Keep crying.

[slate salmon]

Man, that kafir argument is making me laugh repeatedly 😭

[ocean tapir]

Devil understood and you didnt

[shell lily]

Tell me where you got this from?
“I am leaving you with two things. As long as you hold fast to them, you will never go astray: They are the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Prophet.”

• Mohammad (saw)

He blatantly wrote Mohammed saw as a resource

[ocean tapir]

I already gave them but it seems you ignored it, hold on

[ocean tapir]

.

You might need to translate though

It's Turkey's official religion affairs

[shell lily]

I dont read turkish

[ocean tapir]

Whoops

then keep whining

[shell lily]

So turkey is the resource now

[ocean tapir]

Lmao it's the OFFICIAL source of RELIGION affairs

Led by THOUSANDS of SCHOLARS

[shell lily]

So we should ignore all those companions and follow turkey

[slate salmon]

[ocean tapir]

and THEY read RELIGION as a master

[ocean tapir]

you are blatantly pretending to not understanding or you are literally braindead, i aint arguing anymore gang

[shell lily]

Ught whatever im tired

[slate salmon]

It's pointless now. The best I can do is wish your Hidayah .

[ocean tapir]

same for you too brother

[thorny steeple]

الله يقول "واجعلنا للمتقين إماما" كيف تكون إماما بالإفراد والدعاء بصيغة الجمع "اجعلنا"؟

[shell lily]

Colored video from otooman times

Impressive

[ocean tapir]

Nope, 27th February 1998, Turkey

Also Ottomans used arabic letters, not Latin, so its not ottoman

[shell lily]

What was that?

[ocean tapir]

In 1998 Shariah was tried to be published by radical islamist militants and in 28th February, 1998, Turkish military intervened and ceased all those radical movements

[shell lily]

The conclusion is
Long beards are bad
Y'all shave

[shell lily]

They wanted to seize power?

[ocean tapir]

https://tenor.com/view/dreamyryan-shut-up-gif-20400475

[ocean tapir]

yes

[shell lily]

Radicalism is not good

[thorny steeple]

Ah okay

[thorny steeple]

Allah said "In the perspicuous Arabic tongue." , "And if We had made it a non-Arabic Qur'an, they would have said, "Why are its verses not explained in detail [in our language]? Is it a foreign [recitation] and an Arab [messenger]?" Say, "It is, for those who believe, a guidance and cure." And those who do not believe - in their ears is deafness, and it is upon them blindness. Those are being called from a distant place." , "And thus We have revealed to you an Arabic Qur'an that you may warn the Mother of Cities [Makkah] and those around it and warn of the Day of Assembly, about which there is no doubt. A party will be in Paradise and a party in the Blaze."

You just want to understand an Arabic texts with English translation wow.

[feral river]

Sorry your muslim world is done in the modern world so get that back

[carmine shell]

huh why do you guys always talk bout religionism

no offence tho

[feral river]

Can’t imagine in 21 century there are still a bunch of people uphold a backward ideology

[carmine shell]

huh

dumb it down

[feral river]

There’s no problem to believe whatever you want, but keep saying how great your shit while we all seeing it’s fucking done, is crazy

[carmine shell]

makes sense

[feral river]

Even you know that shit is done

[carmine shell]

ignore em

its for your peace

you dont have to prove or fight

wut do we think

[ocean tapir]

i love you gang... keep going

🙏

thankfully im not the only person in this server it seems

[thorny steeple]

The same debate has been going on for hours 😭

[slender coral]

So, it's basically a religion only for Arabic speakers from your silly pov.

The verse you provided actually doesn't support your claim even

[ocean tapir]

oh my god

devil.... i appreciate you buddy....

[slender coral]

It still doesn't provide the mechanisms you guys created very later to decide what's Islamic and what isn't.

[ocean tapir]

I LOVE YOU

[slender coral]

🫶

I'm not Muslim bro, but it really pisses me off to see fundamentalist arrogance.

[ocean tapir]

that's the point i defend, whether muslim or not, everybody should say their voice and live their lifestyle, that is exactly what you're doing, much to go bro!

[hot leaf]

real homies hate the Aparthaid regime of israel and its supporters

[soft nest]

we do bro, we do.

[feral river]

I just say what I have seen

[ocean tapir]

and it's right

[soft nest]

Imagine if the religion of any old African tribe was the true one and we're just fighting for shi

[feral river]

a bunch of people dreaming their utopia that doesn't exist and will not be exist anytime

[ocean tapir]

and has never been existed*

[feral river]

what exists is they live in some poor hole with nothing but a bunch of people who tells them lies and takes everything from them by force

[hidden shore]

religions holds people backward

i agree

[feral river]

when we say oh shit you live in a pretty bad situation they say get the fuck off you haters! our ideology is superior

[thorny steeple]

And thus We have revealed to you an Arabic Qur'an that you may warn the Mother of Cities [Makkah] and those around it and warn of the Day of Assembly, about which there is no doubt. A party will be in Paradise and a party in the Blaze.

Did you even read? Lol
Quran is in Arabic
To learn quran you have to learn
Simple as that! You are just arguing for nothing

I challenge any of you to answer about that

الله يقول "واجعلنا للمتقين إماما" كيف تكون إماما بالإفراد والدعاء بصيغة الجمع "اجعلنا"؟

[feral river]

totally fucked dude

[hidden shore]

we should have modern mindset instead of old religions shit

[prisma cipher]

Don't see anything bad in religion.

[thorny steeple]

Sorry i said i won't discuss again today @thorny steeple 😂

I will really stop now

[hidden shore]

Muslims dream is the whole world people had adopt their islam

[feral river]

they have nothing besides this

[hidden shore]

they always convince people to join their religion

[thorny steeple]

🤍

[feral river]

do that we don't give a fuck

[thorny steeple]

Thanks for the compliment.

I appreciate that 🤍🤍🤍

[hidden shore]

[hidden shore]

actually we good bro, without religions we can survive with better lifestyle

[thorny steeple]

North Korea is an atheist country go and live there 😂😂😂

[hidden shore]

kim dynasty actually is not bad if you imagine compared to those country that high crimes rate and corruption, robbery, extreme poverty rates and stuff, kim dynasty is quite safe, free housing, free education, usually among younger generations they even speak quite well in english they do know the whole world what's going on there

[thorny steeple]

Okay take a boat and go there

[hidden shore]

go live Sudan or north korea, i would choose north korea

[thorny steeple]

Okay Go!!

Or is it just empty talk?

Don't disappoint me 😰😰

[hidden shore]

lamo

[thorny steeple]

You disappointed me
You only said empty talk with no real actions

[vast wolf]

nigeria and iraq are religious countries go and live there

nothing against religion

[hidden shore]

i have been lived in there for years yeah pretty good

[vast wolf]

but thats a stupid argument

[thorny steeple]

I have no problems living there lol

[thorny steeple]

what the f*ck are you on?

[hidden shore]

Do you fucking read it?

[thorny steeple]

I have and I feel confident to say fuck you in your face

[sharp creek]

why are you attacking others sir!!!

you dont even know what kim dynasty is

[hidden shore]

why so mad lamo calm down i just told the truth

[sharp creek]

the pink name should be friendly

[zealous sigil]

anyone wanna be friends?

[sharp creek]

why dont you tell us what is kim dynasty and why you are mad at it

[thorny steeple]

You literally can look it up lmao. If you love your kings and queens so much, how about going there and live with them?

[slender coral]

I know that the Quran is supposed to be a message for everyone, I was pointing out that the idea of making interpreting religious texts exclusively for Arabic speakers makes it no universal message. And btw even Arabic speakers and scholars differ in sects and schools of theology, and they often accuse each other of being infidels over their disagreements.
To learn a book you don't need to learn its language, you can simply read it's translation. Especially if it's one written to be understood by everyone, the author will be careful to make translating it be no challenging matter.

But from your pov, it seems like Allah was dumb enough to not be able to do that.

[sharp creek]

i see ,she really hates north korea

i will tell you guys the truth

[sharp creek]

when kim jun un was youg, he was really handsome

suuuper handsome

[slender coral]

Meeeeee

[thorny steeple]

me ^^

[thorny steeple]

There is a difference between general understanding and understanding to extract rulings, for example, rulings on financial transactions, marriage, and divorce. I cannot say to someone who does not know Arabic: Go and issue fatwas to people. As for general understanding, I do not prevent anyone from it.

As for the sects, it is true what the Messenger said that the nation will split into 73 sects. The Jews were divided into 71 and the Christians into 72. 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️

Imagine if you are a Muslim and someone who does not understand the Quran or its language is appointed as your judge and he judges you based on the Quran. That is terrifying.

[sharp creek]

look into my eyes , am i telling the truth

[thorny steeple]

Fuck off you are just a troll

[slender coral]

You haven't understood yet that we are talking about how religion should be a personal matter?
Appointed as a judge based on the Quran, yeah lol
Don't worry, I'm not a clown to take such job.

[sharp creek]

you dont explain what supports your point. Is your king really better than others

[hidden shore]

[sharp creek]

and im kim s big fan

[hidden shore]

you are a big fan of kim joung un?

[sharp creek]

yes i am

he is handsome

[hidden shore]

why not islam or muslim kings

[sharp creek]

hummm

[slender coral]

One more thing, your prophet is a fucking idiot. He didn't know how diverse and fluid Jewish and Christian sects and denominations, counting that is impossible. Same could be said about Islam, of course he didn't know that because he wasn't able to know the future.

[sharp creek]

im not muslim!!!

i know!!! he is from south korea!!

[sharp creek]

do you, do you , do you

[thorny steeple]

@tough gull Hey I need help

[sharp creek]

what are you doing my comrade

i just wanna know you

and your king

[sharp creek]

how can i assist you sir, would you tell me where are you from. im japanese . we could be best comrade

[soft nest]

Woah, that's an insult, calm down.

[slender coral]

It's not directed at anyone here. I'm calm, don't worry.

[tough gull]

Hi

[soft nest]

Bruv, you dropped an f bomb💀🤚

[slender coral]

Got used to saying it often lol

[soft nest]

Haha understandable.

[tough gull]

@slender coral Please do NOT disrespect the Prophet Muhammad

[slender coral]

Why?

[tough gull]

Because it's not allowed according to this server's rules

[near blaze]

Heck no

[slender coral]

Which one?

It's the first time someone tells me this

[tough gull]

There's a first time for everything

[slender coral]

Ok. Which rule I violated with that?

[thorny steeple]

Enjoy the report kiddo

[slender coral]

Snowflake

[slender coral]

I didn't promote hate speech, bully anyone, attack anyone personally, discriminate against anyone, harass anyone, nor troll.

[thorny steeple]

I see how you can accept everyone and every religion now 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

You believe in false freedom kiddo

[slender coral]

I see that you don't understand what acceptance is.

[tough gull]

We classify that as a personal attack at a historical figure of much importance

Criticism is ok

But no personal attacks please

[thorny steeple]

Go play away

[sharp creek]

omg the arguement is really interesting

[shy summit]

While you can make critiques of historica in the case of accademia if you only wish to make attacks on central figures for purposes of attacking someone we’ll catch yo ass

[slender coral]

Well, if you say so. You are the admin here. I just wanna understand, you didn't clarify that in the rules. Also, what are the protected historical figures exactly? Are people not allowed to make personal attacks against Hitler for instance?

[shy summit]

Are you making an argument against people who are german or merely using it as an example of something else

It depends on the context in which you use it

[tough gull]

It all depends on how you word it

[shy summit]

For this reason we recommend you either keep these sensitive topics to isolated designated channels or exercise extreme caution when dealing with them.

[tough gull]

As said earlier criticism is ok but not attacks

[slender coral]

Well, I never said we should do anything against Muslims. That secular Muslim fella was discussing the whole thing about how personal religion is with me against @thorny steeple earlier, it's how we ended up where I said that about Mohamed because honestly it`s how I see the man.

I never directed anything against other members nor the followers of the faith collectively

[soft nest]

Nah fam, even though the arguments were all epic, but that was a little too extreme... I would be offended if I were a Muslim too.

[slender coral]

Well, everything you'd say could offend someone out there. That secular Turk was offended by how the people were talking about Ataturk, should we shield Ataturk from ridicule too?

[sharp creek]

keep it up!!!

[soft nest]

But Ata Turk isn't a religious figure but Muhammad is.

[slender coral]

Why does that make any difference exactly? The man is so important for some people as Mohamed is for some others..

[tough gull]

I'm not a Muslim but comparing Ataturk with the Prophet is interesting

[slender coral]

Same could be said about many kinds of people, from artists to religious figures.

[soft nest]

Nope, he's only imp for Turkish but Muhammad is for all the Muslims. Compare them bruh.

[tough gull]

[soft nest]

Nah bro, imo Religious figures should be left alone.

[soft nest]

Yea... It is.

[slender coral]

On what basis bro?

[sharp creek]

who is Ataturk ..

[whole beacon]

Its called freedom of speech for a reason.

[thorny steeple]

This is insulting not freedom

[tough gull]

We have nothing against you critiquing the Prophet btw

[soft nest]

"Freedom of speech" when the rules clearly iterate that it's not allowed... Nice.

[whole beacon]

Where does it say exactly, that u can not criticize religious figures ????????

[tough gull]

You have that freedom of speech here

[slender coral]

They really don't. Nothing says insulting religion isn't allowed in the rules. I've been here for a long time and it has never been a problem.

[whole beacon]

Ok

[soft nest]

It's a sub-division of hate speech 🙂

[tough gull]

But don't go for personal attacks is all I say

[whole beacon]

Lmaaao

[slender coral]

How brother?

[tough gull]

Not really

[last prawn]

The word "methodology" is derived from the Greek words methodos and logia. Methodos translates to "pursuit" or "a way of inquiry," while logia means "the study of." Therefore, methodology literally means the study of methods. It entered English usage through Latin in the late Middle Ages, evolving into its modern academic sense of a systematic way to study procedures and techniques.

[rich wyvern]

Hello. I don't think so. When someone says 'Your mom/dad is insult and insults' wouldn't it classify as hate speech and incite hatred? In the same way when you use 'Your prophet' and add insults to the sentence it's expressing hatred towards someone people deem as sacred (this is someone who is respected and loved by people of a certain faith) 💯. I'd say that crosses into hate speech.

[whole beacon]

Sub devision

[soft nest]

Then what is hate speech?

[whole beacon]

😂

[whole beacon]

Gd question

[soft nest]

Well I may not be a native bruh.

[whole beacon]

Why don't hit ggl for some deep digging

[thorny steeple]

You better learn your religion
I am sure if i said "your brother is a fucking idiot" you will just punish me
But with prophet! No you will not do anything

[main bison]

Oii

[soft nest]

That's what I'm saying.

[soft nest]

Ooi mate, innit?

[spring zephyr]

[main bison]

Bloody hell

[whole beacon]

Brruh
This isn't a muslim platform, its an international server in which nobody gives a bugger about ur opinions, ppl are prone to criticize everything.
So if u can't deal with a simple <fucking> expression. Just leave the platform.

[slender coral]

What do the mom and dad of someone have to do with the disagreement I have with them? On the other hand, all of what we were talking about revolved around the prophet and his religion.
It's not equivalent at all. On one hand you have people minding their own business, on the other you have one of the most controversial public figures in history.

[soft nest]

I watch too much sidemen bruv.

[slender coral]

You need to learn what freedom of speech is

[sharp creek]

who is prophet

[main bison]

People are yapping

[thorny steeple]

You know i don't claim that it's follow islamic standards.
You have a rule says speak respectful
So is saying "you are a fucking idiot" is respectful? I don't think so

[rich wyvern]

That is very capable of not only hurting the person you were arguing with but others as well. Gave me cognitive dissonance for a min.

[thorny steeple]

Prohept Muhammad SAW

[soft nest]

I think you should just delete the rules if you don't want other to follow it.

[whole beacon]

The word fucking is merely an expression.
Thats why everyone can write it but can't write other words
Try it , u will see.

[slender coral]

And what is hurting for you exactly? Hurting someone's feelings isn't wrong. Bullying, personal attacks, and hate speech are so different from just getting your feelings hurt. They are truly harmful to your mental health and that's why they aren't allowed.

[tough gull]

What rule?

I have already made it clear buddy

Criticism is just fine

[hidden shore]

Religious leader who created a religion

[tough gull]

Just don't make it an insult

[sharp creek]

i get it , i know him

[thorny steeple]

@tough gull
If i called someone "idiot" will anything happen to me? @tough gull

[tough gull]

It's completely ok to criticise the Prophet in this channel, you have that much freedom of speech

[soft nest]

So that wasn't an insult? Just clarifying that so if I do that in the future, I know exactly what to write.

[spring zephyr]

Do you believe just becuz a random guy on the internet calls your prophet a fuckin idiot, that makes your prophet an idiot?

[soft nest]

No, I just wanna ask, what counts as "hate speech"?

[thorny steeple]

Do not make logical fallacies.

[slender coral]

Brother Ahmed is so shocked that people who criticize his prophet don't get silenced here like what happens in his country 😂

[spring zephyr]

Stop makin excuses. Just answer a simple goddamn qn.

Lmao.

[thorny steeple]

You know it's no, but it's not normal to see someone insulting my prophet and i say okay yeah no problem

[soft nest]

Tbh... Blasphemy laws are shit...

[slender coral]

Something like "Muslims are criminals and should be deported" or "Muslims are terrorists and should be killed".
Hate speech is a very severe thing that spotting it isn't difficult.

[spring zephyr]

The world doesn't revolve around you. Sooner you realize, better your life would be.

[whole beacon]

U can present counter arguments. Just don't expect us mod to be muting ppl for saying nthin.

[sharp creek]

Keep it up!
We are against him on our own
Ask about his religion

[rich wyvern]

Not really.

[thorny steeple]

I am going to pray Asr

Bye 👋🏻

[thorny steeple]

illogical fallacy