🧠｜serious-chat

[manic juniper]

I'm religious but I don't know if it can be defined like that

[shadow kite]

What about you?

[feral river]

Which means you trust them.

[shadow kite]

I didn't say otherwise.

[worldly drum]

To me the most important factor is humility

[shadow kite]

Being religious means being devoted to a higher power or spiritual practices. What are your religious affiliations?

[feral river]

The most important thing for me is interest, staying questioning and better know every aspect and different prospect.

[shadow kite]

Fair enough.

[feral river]

I will be invincible if I know how religious people think, and how irreligious people think

[shadow kite]

How?

[feral river]

do as one likes

It’s like collecting intelligence

[manic juniper]

KŚEMË, there is no worship involved so I don't know if I can define myself as religious

[feral river]

Be a world spy and never trust anything except myself.

[worldly drum]

I've heard that Charles Darwin was a Diest, do you know anything about that?

[feral river]

Idk you can talk about that

[worldly drum]

Not skeptic enough are you now

[manic juniper]

He was

[shadow kite]

What is this?

[manic juniper]

But I don't know how convinced he was of that, that's difficult to know without him being alive

[feral river]

Maybe, I agree with this

[manic juniper]

A minority religion from Russia

[shadow kite]

And what does this religion stand for?

[worldly drum]

Is it a polytheistic religion?

[manic juniper]

There are some values to follow, usually it encourages the pursuit of non-violent knowledge, avoiding unnecessary aggression, being a balanced person without vices, keeping a prosperous environment

[shadow kite]

This can be done without following a religion, can it not?

[manic juniper]

Yes and no, it's similar to Baltic polytheism where deities are considered aspects of a greater entity, but the number is neither one or many, it isn't specified

[shadow kite]

Do you have any rituals or any god that you worship?

[manic juniper]

Yes, like all things

[manic juniper]

I don't worship any because She doesn't require it, I follow traditions and rituals though, the last one was at the beginning of the year and there will be another in this month

[feral river]

Do you think an aggression is exactly unnecessary in any cases ?

[shadow kite]

Understandable.

[manic juniper]

"Unnecessary aggression" means there are cases where it's necessary

[feral river]

Make sense.

But hard to define which one is necessary

And which one is unnecessary

[manic juniper]

It's quite easy

[worldly drum]

According to Christianity what is the purpose of life, why did we come here?

[manic juniper]

If a snake bites you because it felt threatened you leave it alone

[worldly drum]

I've heard of the concept that suggests that we're here as a punishment, is that correct?

[manic juniper]

If a person with a knife jumps on you you are free to do anything you can to save your life

[feral river]

But what if a snake can be sold for billion dollars

[manic juniper]

What about that

[feral river]

I was giving an example because you say if a snake bites you because it felt threatened you leave it alone

[shadow kite]

The purpose of my Faith is to seek union with God and inherit His Kingdom, to have Eternal Life.

[feral river]

But what if it’s profitable

[manic juniper]

Doing it for money could be considered a vice

[feral river]

Further explain

[manic juniper]

You can sell people's organs for money too, but most wouldn't do it

[worldly drum]

That'll be the afterlife right? What about this life?

[manic juniper]

Selling the snake could potentially jeopardise its life, it's better left where it lives unless it needs another kind of help

[shadow kite]

This life prepares us for the next, it's a "test".

[feral river]

That’s because law exists, if you sell people’s organ which you will be forcibly punished by law

It’s not worth it

But what if a snake ?

[manic juniper]

Even before laws existed most people weren't doing it

[worldly drum]

Ohh interesting, we Muslims also consider this to be a test

[manic juniper]

Most of Europe didn't have written laws before the Roman Republic conquered it and imposed them

[worldly drum]

That's actually pretty interesting

[shadow kite]

Yes, I am aware.

[shadow kite]

Indeed it is.

[manic juniper]

Their life is no less valuable

[feral river]

Well, but you are saying an exception aren’t you ?

Because I didn’t ask that question tho

[manic juniper]

No? Most people lived lawlessly

If they didn't do it without laws, why would they do it with laws? Laws are there to standardise punishments, otherwise people will seek personal justice, and that can go either way

[feral river]

There is no where doesn’t have a law

[manic juniper]

If there wasn't a law about stealing an apple, people would still do it. And people would still deal with apple thieves, however they'd do it however they wish, some may get enslaved, tortured, killed

Just for stealing an apple

[feral river]

Law is used for defining which is guilty and under forcibly punished and which is not guilty

That’s why court exists

[manic juniper]

But if the law says you'll be in jail for a day then they will end in jail for a day

[feral river]

What is the point for stealing an apple ? It’s not worth it

[manic juniper]

What if you're starving

[feral river]

When I was starving, so yes I will steal an apple

[manic juniper]

Most criminals are such out of desperation

[worldly drum]

How do you guys view the trinity and monotheism.

[feral river]

I think there must be a reason they are desperate

[manic juniper]

Bad economic conditions

No opportunities or things like that

[feral river]

I don’t think there is anyone wanting steal an apple and break their own reputation because it’s not worth it

[feral river]

Good point so economy prosperity will reduce crimes that’s actually true

[manic juniper]

People steal food directly from the fields or the supermarkets

[feral river]

But another point, prosperity can reduce crime, and rule of power also can reduce crime

[shadow kite]

We believe that God is one in essence but exists in three personalities or hypostasis. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

[feral river]

Violence can reduce crime too

[manic juniper]

Nah

[feral river]

Nah ?

[manic juniper]

Plenty of criminals stop being such in Nordic countries because they are taught life skills and may be hired in jobs before getting out of jail

[feral river]

If some nation made a law that says if you trust god you are under arrest by force

What do you think about this way ?

Actually it’s effective

[manic juniper]

Punitive systems like the American one aren't very good for crime rates

[manic juniper]

It's restrictive for no good reason

[feral river]

It has good reason, and what if everyone supports this ?

Actually it happened in the past and now

[manic juniper]

It's impossible that everyone supports any idea, there will always be outliers and contrarians

What's the good reason also

[feral river]

Majority of people

[worldly drum]

For non-christians this concept is often incomprehensible or maybe confusing at times is it easy to understand among the Christians

*?

[feral river]

The good reason of cultural invasion, destabilizing society and creating division around people

[manic juniper]

It isn't always right to let the majority choose just because they're the majority

[manic juniper]

There are similar concepts in Hinduism and sorta in Romuva too

[feral river]

Yes but for some cases like this

Majority all think it’s good for majority

And it indeed works, it’s not just saying

We can see how they worked properly with this

I can comprehend that if you say it’s inhumane, but in prospect of interest, that is absolutely good for majority of people and whole society

[shadow kite]

Yes, that's why we believe in it. Christians possess the Holy Spirit which is within us and that's why we can see clearly.

[worldly drum]

Idk about Romuva but in Hinduism they have this concept of multiple incarnations of one God, but in Christianity it's very different I think

[worldly drum]

Is it always present in a Christian? Or is there a process?

[shadow kite]

Always. From the moment you declare the Lord and become Christian until the end.

If you stay a Christian of course.

[worldly drum]

The Holy Spirit is also God right?

Is it as much the God as The father and Jesus or is there a difference?

[manic juniper]

They are comparable, maybe somewhat similar but not identical

[worldly drum]

But they're independent entities right?

[manic juniper]

There is something similar in my religion too, but they are more separated than in Christianity

[shadow kite]

Yes!

[shadow kite]

The are equal and co-eternal

[manic juniper]

The Father is often just called "God" but all three are

[manic juniper]

Yes

[worldly drum]

One more thing

[manic juniper]

Not all the times, if the majority votes for a war that will be detrimental then it isn't a good choice

[prime cloak]

Yes, God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost

[shadow kite]

Distinct personalities, yes!

[worldly drum]

Jesus (A.S) is considered the begotten son of God right? Then how is he co-eternal?

[manic juniper]

As an entity the Christian God is one because the essence is shared

[prime cloak]

Three persons but one God

[manic juniper]

In Hinduism it's supposed to be similar about the essence part

[prime cloak]

@shadow kite do you have confession in orthodox churches? I've heard you do do communitary confessions in front of every one is that true?

[worldly drum]

Yeah but then if you take one out then the rest won't be fully God right? Cuz how can a part of whole be whole?

[shadow kite]

He is God in the flesh of the Son of God the Father. He existed with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit when the Heavens and the Earth were created. He was incarnated when the time was right in order to be Crucified and offer Salvation to the world.

[manic juniper]

It is paradoxical, but if the entity is omnipotent then it can be done. An omnipotent being would be able to make a square round

[shadow kite]

We do have confessions, but not in front of everyone.

[manic juniper]

Maybe it's a thing of oriental Orthodox

[shadow kite]

I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian.

[prime cloak]

Oh, so that might be oriental orthodox

[manic juniper]

Oriental Orthodox are very few

[prime cloak]

I think it was the russians who confessed that way, i don't remember

Probably not the russians so 🧐

[manic juniper]

They should be eastern too but Russians follow some other traditions

[prime cloak]

We actually confess in front off a priest, but i am seeing a lot of confessionaries available here now

[shadow kite]

@prime cloak Are you Catholic?

[prime cloak]

Catholics (Roman)

[feral river]

What if it comes to detrimental for enemy but it gets huge benefits to themselves ?

[worldly drum]

What do you think of secularism?

[prime cloak]

Yes indeed! But i do like Orthodox traditions

Agni parthene

[manic juniper]

It's amoral and oligarchic, most of the times only politicians and their families receive benefits

[thorny steeple]

People basically prioritize their interest more than the others.

It is originated in desire for existence I guess

[shadow kite]

God bless you! Agni Parthene is one of my favorite chants

[prime cloak]

There is that one too called Kristos Anesti

[worldly drum]

Has anyone read Fyodor Dostoevsky?

[feral river]

I would say it has huge benefits for majority of people in some cases, politicians and higher class people gets more but other people still receive benefits

[manic juniper]

like

[prime cloak]

Both very good, there is a lady i've talked about before here called aleksandra spicberga, from latvia, she sings them like no one else

[shadow kite]

Yes! We listen to that on Easter!

[feral river]

First Sino-Japanese war

[shadow kite]

Not yet, but I'm planning on doing so once I finish my exams!! I'm very excited about it 😊

[worldly drum]

I've also been recommended Crime and Punishment

[manic juniper]

The benefits to the people being

[feral river]

Economy prosperity, opportunities etc.

[worldly drum]

But I'm not an avid reader I'm not sure if I should jump in with this one

[worldly drum]

What do you study?

[feral river]

Actually after that, just not a long time, Japan became the most powerful and prosperous nation in Asia

They even defeated Russian

First time for east defeated west

[shadow kite]

Thank you! I want to read White Nights too!

[shadow kite]

Physical education and sports science.

[worldly drum]

Are you doing a bachelor's degree?

[shadow kite]

Yes, it's my first year! What about you? Do you study?

[worldly drum]

@manic juniper are you russian?

[manic juniper]

I'm Finnish

My mum is Russian but not ethnic

[worldly drum]

Yes, I'm doing bachelor's in computer science

[shadow kite]

Beautiful!

[worldly drum]

Can you read russian?

[manic juniper]

Cyrillic? Yes

[worldly drum]

If you're aware of Fyodor Dostoevsky's work would you say that the translations do justice to the original work? I'm assuming he wrote in russian

[worldly drum]

You're studying physical education, do you plan on becoming a trainer of some sort? What are the professions in this field?

[manic juniper]

Some of that is lost in translation, although my Russian isn't the best it loses a lot of emphasis and emotional expression with them. If you really have to choose one go for English because it has the highest amount of them, and some are good

[prime cloak]

There some tgings that can only be expressed in russian language

I've studied russian for 4 years, and the liricity of the language is amazing

[feral river]

Aren’t Finland a puppet state during Soviet era ?

[worldly drum]

Do you have a suggestion?

*recommendation

[prime cloak]

It's like the word saudade, which is a substantive in portuguese that express the feeling of missing something or someone

That word would never be translated properly

[manic juniper]

I don't know if he translated other books of his, but there is Ignat Avsey's translation of The Karamazov Brothers that works well enough

[worldly drum]

How many languages do you know?

[prime cloak]

I speak portuguese

[manic juniper]

That book is top 3 of his so you can start with that as well, no issue

[worldly drum]

Alright thanks

[manic juniper]

No, it never was

There was the short lived Karelian Republic

[prime cloak]

I know english, russian (intermediate), spanish (learning right now) and a little bit of brazilian sign language

[worldly drum]

Yeah I've got it on my list

[prime cloak]

I gave up on russian to learn spanish, a flight to russia from brazil costs 2000 dollars or 3000 dollars which is a lot here

[worldly drum]

Brazilian sign language

[prime cloak]

A flight to argentina is like 200 dollars

[feral river]

But Finland invaded Soviet Union since they are part of Axis ?

[prime cloak]

Or less

[manic juniper]

To retake back Karelia, USSR invaded Finland first

[worldly drum]

How different are the different sign languages? Can they communicate?

[manic juniper]

And we kicked the nazis out of the country as well

[manic juniper]

They are very different

[prime cloak]

There are similar words but they are indeed very different

[manic juniper]

We were completely alone when the USSR invaded our country

[prime cloak]

You can even find "accents" in sign language

[feral river]

Yeah they screwed up

[prime cloak]

And there is regional variation

[feral river]

nazis saying that they can only took 2 hours to make you guys surrender

[manic juniper]

Then Italy gave us a decent amount of support against the USSR for the invasion, Germany did something as well, and in turn the USSR provided aerial support against the Axis

The EU is our first and only real ally, we had some deals with Estonia before WW2 but they were suspended

[worldly drum]

The Europeans fought quite a lot in the last century no?

[prime cloak]

Only in the last? Hahahaha

[feral river]

Make sense, your legendary leader is very clever

But I forgot his name

[prime cloak]

I think serbia was bombarded in 1990

[manic juniper]

Only in the beginning and the end

[prime cloak]

Or was it 2006?

[manic juniper]

In the beginning there was WW1 and WW2, then in the end Yugoslavia started to break up and they had one war after the other

It was in the 90s

[feral river]

That old general lead Finland stands up against Soviets and Nazis

[prime cloak]

Russia never stopped fighting, but fought internal wars and invaded georgia

[manic juniper]

NATO didn't react aggressively to Bosnia's invasion and they did with Kosovo, because some felt like they wanted to avoid another genocide

[prime cloak]

Do you consider georgia europe?

We consider it here

[manic juniper]

Me? Culturally it is for sure, geographically it may not be but it isn't very important imo

[feral river]

Cruel for a small country.

[manic juniper]

I consider Finland eastern European geographically

They should've done something for Bosnia as well, it was a diplomatic and humanitarian failure

[feral river]

You guys actually made a paradise for your people

Finland is awesome

[manic juniper]

Yes but we took like 800 years for that

[prime cloak]

Bosnia is such a weird country

No offense to bosniaks

[worldly drum]

God forbid we'll be repeating such statements in a few decades

[manic juniper]

Even the previous century wasn't 100% good, even if you exclude the Winter War

[feral river]

But, unlike us, there are too many differences between west and east

[prime cloak]

They have 3 presidents dont they?

[manic juniper]

It's weird because it's a demonstration of how arbitrary borders are

[prime cloak]

One fir each ethinicity

[manic juniper]

Yes and one gets two votes lol

The Serbian one gets two votes

[prime cloak]

Crazy

[manic juniper]

Because of Republika Srpska and stupid western and Serbian treaties or something

[prime cloak]

Their desserts look very nice actuallt

I ve seen some in one travelling vlog

[manic juniper]

I think it's the same for Georgia and Ukraine, not as much for Palestine just because it's way outside the continent but still, more than this should be done

[feral river]

Well Yugoslavia didn’t join the Soviet Union I thought

[manic juniper]

It didn't, they were in neutral to bad relations

Stalin didn't like Tito and wanted him assassinated

[feral river]

Yeah Tito has too many autonomy

[manic juniper]

Stalin's thought basically was: either you follow our version of socialism or we'll force you to

[feral river]

We thought USSR will annex them but they didn’t because of Tito

[manic juniper]

If I'm not mistaken Czechoslovakia too was socialist but independently from the USSR, like Yugoslavia, until there was a forced change of government

Poland was seeking socialism as well but it was long before all of that, before it was forced

[feral river]

The biggest problem of USSR, is ignoring interests for their own people and their allies

Always denying their history, denying Stalin, denying every leader denying communist party of SU

[prime cloak]

We've got some ukrainjas refugees migrating to brazil, there is a huge ukrainian community here

How are things going in finland?

[worldly drum]

What's Brazil like?

[manic juniper]

Invading its neighbours, poor economic decisions, extreme focus on military, in my opinion Stalin did damage to socialism's reputation comparable to USA propaganda

[feral river]

Making historical nihilism and make everything confuse

[prime cloak]

I bet there may be more people

[prime cloak]

Beautiful and wild

[feral river]

That’s no doubt yes

[worldly drum]

Hostile or nah?

[prime cloak]

Wild because life is not easy, and you need to pay attention to what you are doing

[manic juniper]

I don't know, I think they're around 60k maybe

[prime cloak]

It depends, sone areas definitely

If you do the wrong things it's hostile

[manic juniper]

My family has applied too and they are supposed to come in few months

Along others from the same city

[prime cloak]

But sputh america was always a safe haven for migrants and refugees

[feral river]

I guess Russia is missing their red empire

[feral river]

Isn’t that place achieved economy prosperity?

[prime cloak]

Is your family ukrainian?

[prime cloak]

South america?

No, things are pretty turbulent here

[feral river]

I thought South America is poor

[prime cloak]

Crisis happen often

[manic juniper]

They're not but most of my mum's relatives moved there before the collapse of the USSR

[worldly drum]

I wonder if these nation states will be around in a few centuries

[manic juniper]

My mum for example was living in Moldova

[prime cloak]

Not poor, there is a lot of poverty here, but a lot of richness also

[feral river]

Well I mean most people

[prime cloak]

Oh you speak romanian?

[manic juniper]

I guess you could say they're Ukrainian by nationality

Ukraine is quite diverse

[manic juniper]

Yes but I lack practice

[feral river]

I’m not going to immigrate any nation besides some places like Singapore, Dubai, Hawaii

[prime cloak]

It depends on the country, in venezuela yes, most people are poor, in argentina or brazil no, most people are middle income

[manic juniper]

I've learned Ukrainian and Romanian when I was little but the lack of practice made me rusty in it

[feral river]

Cool

[prime cloak]

Romanian actually is a romance language

So it sounds a lot like portuguese, that is nice

[manic juniper]

Sorta, weirdly

[prime cloak]

What are your thoughts about the reunification of romania and moldova?

I've seen that moldovans are not quite against it

[manic juniper]

It definitely should happen although it will be difficult and not profitable to Romania, at first

[prime cloak]

It could improve the life of moldovans

[manic juniper]

Now Romanians are, it shifts continually

[prime cloak]

However transnistria is a problem

[manic juniper]

When Moldovans were against it, Romanians were favourable, now it's the complete opposite

[feral river]

A Soviet places left in this world ?

[manic juniper]

It's another issue like Republika Srpska that should be solved with force

[prime cloak]

Better say a russian exclave in moldova hahahaha

[prime cloak]

Never heard of that one

I am going to sleep 10 pm here, good night y'all

[manic juniper]

It's a separatist state in Bosnia much like Transnistria

[thorny steeple]

Let's get all countries annexed into the one.

Abolish the concept of country or border.

I'm not a communism or socialism or anarchism.

this is one of choices we take and that's all. Here is no such prejudiced perspective. Rest assured.

[feral river]

That’s what we are doing

Unite our nation by any means necessary

Expand territories, assimilation projects

And actually our society is so stable, only few people attends crime and no political opponents no barriers to accessing any part of our state

Even some city became the economic center and being so prosperous like Tokyo, Singapore, etc.

[thorny steeple]

NO

Read above. Not China.

[feral river]

Well but that’s what we did

[thorny steeple]

read carfefully please..

[feral river]

I don’t think it’s possible to annex every state

[shadow kite]

I'm interested in clinical ergophysiology and rehabilitation. But I can also become a trainer of the sport I do!

[worldly drum]

What sport do you do?

[shadow kite]

Ju-jitsu

[worldly drum]

Nice, you ever tried to mix it up?

I mainly do boxing but I find it boring to stick to just one style

[narrow fossil]

that would be a correct statement

[thorny steeple]

Teach me boi.

[onyx hazel]

Nikita kruschev is the killer, not Stalin

Every socialist event in the world, have their explanation, you just have to search about it, it's hard to find the real history of the socialists countries because U.S always intervence in these countries lifes, 90% of the data critizing the socialists countries comes from western media. I used to say the same things that you say, but when I studied the real history of these countries, I learned about them. 90% of the western media, say that North Korea is a "dictadorship", and I used to say the same thing, but when I studied the history of the country, I learned the truth.

Video about the North Korea defectors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkegD7V9E6g

[narrow fossil]

Wait are you saying stalin didn't kill?

[onyx hazel]

No

[narrow fossil]

ok

[onyx hazel]

Stalin killed the N4Z1 germans

[narrow fossil]

and like a bunch of ukrainians

[manic juniper]

And countless Kazakhs and ethnic minorities from Russia

[thorny steeple]

omg

the 1930s famine that occurred in Ukraine, the Caucasus which comprise Armenia, Georgia, and parts of Southern Russia, and also hit Kazakhstan just as badly. Of course, calling it a Holodomor implies that it was intentional. Literal meaning "death inflicted by starvation".

However, even Princeton professor and conservative Stephen Kotkin, perhaps America's leading expert on Stalin, as well as a vocal critic, explains on episode 184 of The American Interest podcast that although he thinks Stalin has blood on his hands for the famine, he doesn't consider the famine to be intentional. Note also that I'm not even using a communist historian as my source, e.g. someone like Grover Furr, but the anti-communist historian Stephen Kotkin.

"I'm an empirical person. Today, in our country, it's more important than ever to have facts and to line up your facts and to substantiate, to document. You can't just argue what you want to be true, you have to argue on the basis of evidence. What's the evidence we have on this question of the intentionality or not of the famine of 1931-33?

"We have an unbelievable number of documents showing Stalin committing intentional murder, with the Great Terror, as you alluded to earlier, and with other episodes. He preserved these documents—he would not try to clean up his image internally–and these documents are very damning. There is no shortage of documentation when Stalin committed intentional murder.

"However, there is no documentation showing that he intended to starve Ukraine, or that he intended to starve the peasants.

"Ask yourself, why are there no documents showing intentional murder or genocide of these people when we have those documents for all the other episodes?

"...the intentionality question is completely undermined by the documents on the record." — from the podcast The American Interest, Episode 184: Stephen Kotkin on Stalin. Richard Aldous speaks with Stephen Kotkin about his book, Stalin: Waiting for Hitler, 1929-1941.

[narrow fossil]

Yeah but wether it was intenional or not he still killed people

[manic juniper]

Exactly lmao

Gotta love USSR apologists

[narrow fossil]

fr

[thorny steeple]

My point is that the meaning of "Holodomor" is the thesis that a famine that occurred in Ukraine in 1932 and 1933 was deliberately planned by the Soviets authorities to "kill its people on purpose". In western media documentations, sometimes they appear as "to dicipline the peasants", sometimes others like "extermination of ethnic Ukrainians due to Ukrainian nationalism" (they don't even decide what really happened).

This famine happened in USSR. But the thesis that "it was planned by the Soviet authorities to kill Ukrainians" is false. The real cause of the famine in USSR, was the climate crisis. At that time, in 1932 and 1933, the USSR suffered a very serious problem of drought, flood and plague. There were regions that flooded and there were regions that were affected by locusts and rust, which is a type of fungus that makes the leaves turn red. The main factor that caused the harvests to be bad in these years, was the climate disaster.

And then there is another factor that contributed to USSR famine: the factor of sabotage. For those who don't know, the USSR was collectivizing the countryside in an accelerated manner and received resistance from the rich peasants, the kulaks. So the Kulaks burned crops, they didn't harvest, they let the grains rot, killed the livestock to boycott the rural collectivization project. And this is something that has so much evidence, that even Robert Conquest has to admit. It took the Soviet Union 10 years to recover from the death of the herd.

[narrow fossil]

no I'm pretty sure they kinda deliberately made the starving people not able to eat

They would shoot those who tried to hide food

it was kinda planned

[thorny steeple]

You didn't read the text 💀

[narrow fossil]

u editied it tho

It said wasn't at first

[thorny steeple]

But, what's the problem with it?

[narrow fossil]

because it was planned

[thorny steeple]

These are just English mistakens

[narrow fossil]

It was a planned kiling

Like maybe not at the beginging but it definitely was deliberate after the ukranians were begging for food only to not recieve it

[thorny steeple]

Ok, so these are the fonts:

Book:
TOTTLE, Douglas. Fraud, Famine and Fascism: The Ukranian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard. Toronto: Progress Books, 1988. 167 pg.

Additional bibliography:
CHIGRIN, Ivan; PRUDNIKOVA, Elena. Мифология «голодомора». ОЛМА Медиа Групп, 2013. 530 pg.

DAVIES, R. W.; WHEATCROFT, Stephen G.. The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture 1931-1933. The Industrialization of Soviet Russia 5. Palgrave Macmillan, 2004. 555 pg.

FURR, Grover. Blood Lies: The Evidence that Every Accusation against Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Union in Timothy Snyder’s Bloodlands is False. Nova Iorque: Red Star Publishers, 2014.

TAUGER, Mark B. Natural Disaster and Human Actions in the Soviet Famine of 1931-1933. The Carl Beck Papers in Russian & East European Studies, nº 1506, 2011. 65 p.

TAUGER, Mark B.. The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933. Slavic Review, 50(1), pp.70-89

I understand you, the Western media portrays that it was the Soviet authorities who intentionally killed the population. However, there are sources proving that this is a lie, and if it is well-explained and detailed, demonstrating that it is false, it is because it truly is.

[narrow fossil]

funny how half of your sources are writen by russians but ok

[thorny steeple]

Yeah, the people who really have lived in the country

[feral river]

This is true.

Even their leader, kruschev is a Ukrainian, and he gave crimea to Ukraine SSR.

[thorny steeple]

kruschev was the man who made USSR colapse, so he was the problem of the country. Kruschev was bad.

[shadow kite]

Yes I have! It's very fun

[shadow kite]

Ohh nice! I like boxing but I prefer muay thai

[shadow kite]

Of coursee!

[cosmic ridge]

Hey what's up

I have a question!

[static pivot]

[jolly agate]

It's easier to blame it on an imaginary belief that school is garbage. Pay attention to the better teachers at school and they'll be your best mentors. I'm still in touch with the teachers and they'll help me even if I call them on a Sunday.
If the student himself is unwilling to make the extra efforts and relies entirely on the government, then it's obvious that he'll never end up self-reliant and self-sufficiency.

The system is designed to aid the needy who have no other way out and can't afford anything at all at obviously the most basic level, not the average man who can, should & must do the basics by himself.

School is an academic guide, not a life-guide. I see no reason to blame it for when children don't know things that the school doesn't feature, I suppose that it's clearly evident that the school can give you only a limited number of hours too

[abstract hamlet]

Hi

[azure whale]

Palestine😂

[dusky island]

Hi

What do you think about the genocide carried out by China against East Turkestan?

[azure whale]

Hi

[vagrant swan]

any france ?

[dusky island]

Bro go to french chat

[vagrant swan]

no ,i just wanna ask something to french people

with using english

[dusky island]

Oh sorry man

[vagrant swan]

np man , nice music taste btw ;)

[dusky island]

Thank u haha

R u from Türkiye

[vagrant swan]

yep

[dusky island]

Gtk

Nice to meet u

[vagrant swan]

nice to meet u to

[dusky island]

So what do u think about this

[vagrant swan]

let me think

[dusky island]

Tyt

[vagrant swan]

which country do u talkin about

or countrys*

[potent burrow]

Hii

[vagrant swan]

yo wassup

[potent burrow]

Eh not bad what about you

[vagrant swan]

i'm doing good

[abstract hamlet]

Hi

Anyone for english

I am looking for friends

[dusky island]

china and East Turkestan

[sharp blaze]

#📋｜rules

[jolly agate]

He’s doing the opposite

[jolly agate]

Hes looking for someone rather then promoting

[sharp blaze]

And why are you speaking on his behalf?

[abstract hamlet]

hi

anyone here

[prime cloak]

propaganda

watch Mr Jones

[jolly agate]

Why do you care,

[sharp blaze]

Answer my question.

[manic juniper]

How is it possible that, of 1.5 millions people starved in Kazakhstan in 1933, 1.2 millions were Kazakhs and they became a minority in their own region for decades? Were Russians just lucky enough that they managed to avoid starving while other ethnic minorities were struck by an anti-communist curse?

Also this "lie" wasn't pushed by western media at first but by Ukraine itself, even when they had a pro-Russian government. How is that possible?

[thorny steeple]

modi want him as opposition leader ,lol

he is doing well.

i appreaciate it

rahul gandhi improved a lot

but many good leaders in congress party like sachin pilet and shashi tharoor should get chance

[obtuse perch]

@pearl rain The Shiites praise and sanctify Ali, and some of them also sanctify Hasan, and they say that they are better than the prophets and that we must follow them, but this is wrong, as God says in the Qur’an (يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ) ( you who have believed, obey a ALLAH and obey the prophet) and they do the opposite of that.

[vagrant swan]

uh actually racism and social oppression have always existed and continue to occur throughout history

chinese administration because they are socialist, they oppresse the people and gives little value to minorities

[dusky island]

So?

Do you think the china is right?

[vagrant swan]

nahhh

[dusky island]

Have you never watched the videos of the persecution of Uyghur Turks?

Lemme show some videos

[vagrant swan]

alr

[dusky island]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Czs4Iv8CCm_/?igsh=bGhjdWF4eTBoYXA2

doguturkistani5kencevar

Doğu Türkistan da açıkça soykırım var.

Doğu Türkistan yanlız kaldı!!

Likes

400

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzlQpsGK5mt/?igsh=YXUybG8ybmhuODd6

doguturkistani5kencevar

Çinin zulmü gün geçtikçe artıyor.

Likes

339

Instagram

[obtuse perch]

the Shiites say that Aisha, the Prophets wife betrayed him and this is not true and they curse her?? ur parents do this if they didnt so they r muslims cuz the prophet muhhamed isnt a sunni or shiei thats all. and the Sunnah means that I follow the actions and sayings of the Prophet Muhammed is it clear?

[obtuse perch]

fk i saw that.....

[dusky island]

What do you think about this persecution by the Chinese?

they are committing genocide

[manic juniper]

They want uniformity and assimilation

Aren't they sending Han Chinese settlers in the region as well?

[vagrant swan]

this is like balkan genocide

these people cannot find a place to live

they are being persecuted

[vagrant swan]

it's an autonomous region ig

[obtuse perch]

and no one knows or talking abt this where America and human rights organizations are??? M.ozil stripped of his citizenship and harassed for supporting them tf they only talking about 7 october... they exaggerate the event and falsify events and facts fk this world fk propaganda.

FAKE HUMAN RIGHTS FAKE FREEDOOM ALAYWS LIES

[manic juniper]

They don't talk much about it because it's difficult to investigate, akin to Covid when it was widespread in the world

Covid investigations in China were difficult and murky, pretty much anything there is unless you're directly allowed to from their central government

[vagrant swan]

it's hard to argue this from just that perspective.

but it can be

[obtuse perch]

difficult???? wut a joke

[manic juniper]

Do you have any idea about how strict their country's surveillance system is?

Why do you think these people can be persecuted in the first place? It's because of the same surveillance system

[worldly chasm]

here we are

[vagrant swan]

America's freedom only works for his benefits

[manic juniper]

Agreed lol the amount of shittalking about Shias is insane

[obtuse perch]

if they want to stop this genocide at least they will try yk that hey rasict thats all dont try to hide the truth like that this is stupidity.

[minor charm]

Religion disputes never lead to somewhere

[dusky island]

Or they don't want to resist China's oppression lol

[manic juniper]

China is trying to hide it, and rightfully so. But even if the entire world knew, there is the issue that China is responsible for a lot of the world's economy and boycotting it (while ethical) isn't easy at all

[dusky island]

Turks have been their enemies for centuries, that's why no one resists

[obtuse perch]

hmmm u want me to send videos that shia cursing aisha?? and glorify ali and hasan like a gods or smth?

[manic juniper]

They must not be the majority, there are videos of Muslims eating pork but I don't believe they are the majority of the Muslims, no?

[vagrant swan]

China?

[dusky island]

Yes

[manic juniper]

Yes, Uyghurs used to have an empire too

[dusky island]

ch!na and other countries

[vagrant swan]

at that time, when they saw any Chinese princess, the Turks

[obtuse perch]

they dont evin help them humanitarian aid or trying to negotiate with China. they supported Ukraine? Yes, Russia is also a great economic power. Isn’t this a matter of racism and bias?

[manic juniper]

I had some Muslim friends, well, friends of any ethnicity really

[obtuse perch]

im saying that they shouldn't be no shia or sunna in islam cuz thats pretty clear It is discrimination and if they do not do what I said previously then they are Muslims we follow allah and his prophet. no need to say im sunni or shiei

[dusky island]

This is not our topic rn

R u Kurd or smthn pojadam?

[manic juniper]

It isn't as much racism as it is about consequences and how far they can get with humanitarian aid, for example there isn't much to be done about Armenia or Georgia because they're already too far for the EU, USA can only help Ukraine through the EU because it borders with Ukraine. Also it's about how much freedom people actually have, I'll give you another example:
Countries such as Norway, Spain, Ireland, Scotland and some others are sending humanitarian aid to Gaza, because it isn't THAT far. There is NO way they could do the same for Uyghur Turks given the distance and how much less free they are (free to express themselves I mean. Palestinians at least can access the internet freely and post, I doubt Uyghur Turks can, Ukrainians too can freely post about their country and the war)

[vagrant swan]

no ,sry

🐺

[manic juniper]

Turk

Do you know about Rohingyas in Myanmar and Bangladesh?

[dusky island]

Alp bu şakanin sırası değil aq hemekdijsndkkd

[obtuse perch]

those who curse aisha and they sanctify ali and hasan.

[vagrant swan]

sfhbuasjyu

[manic juniper]

They are even more persecuted than Uyghurs are, the country where they're from (Myanmar) is full of sanctions as a consequence, it's also possible because most countries in the world don't depend from Myanmar (while they are dependent on China)

Countries such as China and USA can hardly be sanctioned or criticised for the sheer power they possess, it's a bad idea

[vagrant swan]

being superpower effects*

[manic juniper]

Yes

Sanctioning Russia had its consequences for example, and Russia isn't even remotely as powerful as those two. So imagine the consequences of not depending on either USA or China

[vagrant swan]

yep russia is not strong as America

[manic juniper]

Do you think Russia, China and USA are comparable?

[whole beacon]

GDP?

[formal pilot]

Damn

[manic juniper]

Yes

Russia is a regional power but not a superpower

[whole beacon]

A military power !!?

[manic juniper]

A lot of that is a good legacy from the USSR, otherwise even their military would be much worse than it is now

[obtuse perch]

omg look at u how cute ur do you have any idea what the uyghur Turks and the people of Gaza are experiencing now?ooh im sorry. All the journalists who went there to report the news died... Isnt this a double standard? why are news talking about this blocked on social media?When companies stopped advertising on Twitter because of Musk’s promotion of freespeach??? isnt it clear or ur blind

[obtuse perch]

??? really

[whole beacon]

Ryssia is heavily sanctioned Thats why it joined the BRICS.
Getting rid of the dollar and creating a different currency like the euro would render american sanctions usless.

[manic juniper]

? Are you insane or something, speak normally. I see news about Palestine everywhere, even in my country they're talking about the conflict, it isn't censored because it's widely acknowledged and studied, you can hardly do that in China (which was my whole point)

[manic juniper]

It was in BRICS before the sanctions, why do you think it's called BRICS, they are a founding member

[whole beacon]

Yeah thats wat i meant, but u get the point.

[obtuse perch]

I mean the real press not the press that still defends Israel and says that they are defending themselves by killing innocent people. wake up lady

[manic juniper]

Okay you're stupid I get it. Do you realise there are western countries donating to Palestine and condemning Israel? Do you think we have pro-Israel propaganda and that everyone believes in it? Especially our country that was colonised for 600 years by foreign powers

https://yle.fi/news/18-172177
Look, they're positive news about Palestine, there is even a critique about our government suspending funding to Gaza

[whole beacon]

Guys keep civility, no insults

[manic juniper]

I'll be civil once he actually reads my messages instead of making up stuff and assumptions

[whole beacon]

Than ur not suited for debate, u might as well keep ur info for ur self if no one accepts them.

[manic juniper]

He isn't suited for debate if he can't read a simple message and is a bad faith debater

[obtuse perch]

The question is: Did they do anything to stop the genocide? Everyone can speak. Even America has been saying that the genocide must be stopped for months, but the question is: Did it actually do anything to stop the war? No, it is still supporting it financially and militarily.
As for the help that you mentioned every time, did it even come in? No
Can we compare the amount of support and aid that Palestine and Israel received? No
Children and the elderly are dying of hunger. Did you know that there is a hospitalist who recently All patients died due to the lack of oxygen? Yes, THAY ALL DIED. Where is the aid?

[manic juniper]

The help hasn't come in because Israel is blockading it, but I already mentioned countries that are donating to it
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/norway-increases-support-un-agency-palestinian-refugees

Why don't you stop being biased towards western countries and lumping all of them together? We don't have the same values and interests, most of us don't support the US sanctions of Cuba for example

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/5/always-felt-sympathy-for-palestinians-tracing-spains-solidarity

Who the fuck mentioned America? I'm not from there and I don't like it as well

[obtuse perch]

The world cannot do anything for USA.

[manic juniper]

What country are you from? What is your country doing for example?

If your country has trade relations with USA and China then it already failed to

[obtuse perch]

Did they change anything by opposing it? No

[manic juniper]

Sanctions towards Israel are being considered in the EU

[obtuse perch]

yup we failed.

[manic juniper]

Do you think I like the current situation? No. Even I feel like we could do a lot more about Ukraine but it isn't our choice

[obtuse perch]

I hope this happens but unfortunately it will not happen. Israel is America's spoiled child

[manic juniper]

The war in Gaza and the other countries in the Middle East also have consequences for the EU, it's why I think it's in our interests to stop them

[feral river]

why you think USA is doing for their freedom 🤣

[manic juniper]

We will see if they will stop the EU, but that depends also on EU vs USA. Will USA sanction us?

[feral river]

USA is doing for their own interest.

[manic juniper]

I know?

[feral river]

they wanna stay as sole superpower

everyone knows it

[manic juniper]

Our countries are doing it out of interests too, I'm still glad they're doing something for Ukraine still

[feral river]

not freaking freedom

[feral river]

what if Ukraine falls ?

Ukraine falls means Russia is likely to invade them in the future, national security issue

[manic juniper]

It will not, they'll accept a new border at most, or lose the Donbas without peace treaties but no further Russian offensive

[feral river]

Ukraine falls means USA is freaking useless as the leader of the west

Ukraine falls means more resources more dependent on their enemy, Russia

[manic juniper]

Russia can't do more than what's doing actually, I'm not confident Ukraine will definitely keep these borders because I'm realistic, but I know for sure that Russia will never get most of the country

[feral river]

Ukraine falls means force is everything, they can use force to occupy Ukraine why can't other nation use force to occupy their neibor ?

that's too much

[manic juniper]

I can see Russia taking the entire Donbas or, more realistically, ⅓ to ⅔ of it, and the rest of Ukraine staying independent and joining NATO right after the cease of hostilities

[feral river]

I see, but I think Russia is not going to win, conversely, they are going to lose

because United States and European Union

[manic juniper]

What about the borders? Do you think they'll change?

[feral river]

is more powerful.

[manic juniper]

Personally I don't think the EU and USA are doing enough

[feral river]

economically, and militarily

[obtuse perch]

now u get me there is nothing we can do.... The strong devour the weak. I am not saying that you support what is happening there. but I deny what you said about the fact that USA is unable to intervene thats and if i misundertood u im soo sry my eng is not good you know

[feral river]

they won't because they still have their own people

[manic juniper]

We're allowing Ukrainians to fight almost all on their own, only giving them more weapons but no real military support

[feral river]

they are facing another crisis since the war started

[feral river]

I guess we are not lacking of Ukrainians ?

their population is huge

[manic juniper]

I never said USA is unable to intervene, they are unable to intervene in China yes just as China would be unable to intervene in USA

[feral river]

EU and US just need to give them weapons and some techs to fight against Russia

[obtuse perch]

so i get from that u dint You do not support usa policy

[feral river]

actually since the war started, our country (China) increased our trade with Russia

[manic juniper]

The Israel-Palestine conflict will be left as such, USA could solve it but:

1. Realistically, USA gains nothing and only loses by helping Palestine.
2. Israel is their mutual best friend, look at all UN votes, USA and Israel are ALWAYS aligned

[feral river]

and send weapons to North Korea, and North Korea send our weapons to Russia

we all know it.

[feral river]

that's a little about cold war thing

you might know Soviet Union supports Islam country in middle east

[manic juniper]

I believe Israel actively damages the EU, indirectly

Destabilization of the Middle East brought many refugees in Europe

[feral river]

well, no matter what, we don't care that much, but we do trade with both sides, Israel and Islamic nations

China recognized Israel.

[manic juniper]

Most countries do

Some are starting to recognise Palestine even in the EU, like Spain did

[feral river]

we see Palestine as a exile government, we can't even find palestine on the map

[manic juniper]

The current president of Spain is receiving huge backlash from other politicians, Spain doesn't recognise Kosovo either for national reasons, not because it's against Kosovo

[feral river]

it only says Israel when we see the Palestine region.

[thorny steeple]

This situation will not change any significant thing about war

[manic juniper]

So Spain recognising Palestine is an issue to most

[manic juniper]

It will not but like I said earlier, they are discussing about sanctioning Israel. EU is the largest single market in the world, if Israel is sanctioned by us it'll be hit by a freighter train

Either Israel gets much worse economically or they may stop the war even

[feral river]

why would they sanction Israel

I think the most of the EU and US will not agree with this.

[thorny steeple]

They are only discourse, İsreal will not see any irade blockate or anything, support of west based establhisment to israel is not even categorical it is ontological

[feral river]

we see Israel as US's 52th state. (I was kidding but 51th state was Japan🤣 )

[manic juniper]

Well the war there partially affects us too, we helped Kosovo despite it being an economically irrelevant country, Palestine is irrelevant like Kosovo

I can see the EU helping Palestine out of humanitarian reasons rather than economic reasons

[feral river]

but based on your western state most of your politicians and leader stand with Israel for sure.

US will angry if you sanction an US ally

[manic juniper]

Yes

[feral river]

that would be hell to pay if US takes action

[manic juniper]

About this, politics are divided on the issue, there are countries where they're less divided like Norway, Ireland, Scotland and Spain that are already donating to Palestine

[feral river]

I guess they can donate some aid like medicine, foods, another supplies

but how dare they can provide weapons to palestine ?!

[manic juniper]

They are aiming to that but there are blockades because Israel controls the borders

[feral river]

well basically GG but I heard Iran is secretly supporting Palestine but how did they do

[manic juniper]

Palestine doesn't have a proper military to my knowledge, they have resistance forces and Hamas, and Hamas is recognised as terrorist by most. Iran's government is anti-Israel, it doesn't care about who is right or wrong, to them arming Hamas is inherently good because it damages Israel

They are pretty open about it I think, there were Iranian drones in Ukraine as well. Iran is a chaotic player

[uncut hound]

a wild card that can complete upset the balance of power yeah

it's honestly haunting to see a documentary about the conflicts that happen between israel and it's neighbors a few years ago only for it to resurge and happen now

you see it and the very next day, tensions arise just like in the reports you viewed

[viral hemlock]

It's best to have the IDF stand down before they launch any attacks.

[thorny steeple]

İs this situation of EU that they are helping to Palestine? İ do not want to see termst that they do not help to Palestine

İsrael has killed more children than Russia killed in Ukraine but nobody cares including EU countriea

[manic juniper]

Helping is more feasible than sanctioning Israel, some countries already donated but no aid arrived because of blockades

[worldly drum]

Egypt is the culprit in that regard

[manic juniper]

Because it's not on our borders

[worldly drum]

I personally think Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are the biggest culprit

[manic juniper]

Did Middle East countries care about Ukraine? I guess not

[thorny steeple]

No because they are not white and blonde

[manic juniper]

Ukraine is receiving help but less than Kosovo did during the Yugoslavian wars

[manic juniper]

Chechens are often blonde, same as Uyghur Turks yet no one is helping them

Why is that

[thorny steeple]

Because they are not white and being white is a social consturction and it is not only relevant with colour of your ekin, if you are not european or american you can not be white

[feral river]

because ?

[thorny steeple]

İf you want to a real thing about genocide in Palestine, put blockade to İsrael

[feral river]

because first, they are chinese, second they are uyghur

[manic juniper]

Because they are too far from us and there is no realistic way to help them

[thorny steeple]

Even country that complain israel to supreme court is south africa

[manic juniper]

The countries that donated the most per capita to Ukraine are all countries familiar with Russian oppression

Why don't Arabs do the same with Palestine

[feral river]

I guess they stand no chance against Chinese administration

even my friend working in Xinjiang re-education camp

and he told me what is happening there

[manic juniper]

Europeans do nothing: it's our fault
Europeans do something: they should do more

Lol

Most of their neighbours don't even care but they expect us to do more, yes, we should, but it isn't out of racism

[worldly drum]

"wahn" , too much attachment to the worldly life, so much so that they disregard morals

[manic juniper]

Ukrainians are more blonde than Kosovars are, yet NATO bombed Belgrade to save Kosovo, it didn't bomb Moscow to save Ukraine

[feral river]

dare they do ?

if they bomb moscow, moscow will rebomb washington

by nuclear weapons

[manic juniper]

Some people here don't get that it's not easy or feasible

Serbia wasn't even a regional power, and compared to NATO it was insignificant

[feral river]

they don't have ability to defend themselves

simply to say, they aren't powerful enough

if they have mass destruction weapons, no one dare to strike on them

[grand jolt]

Sup
Topic?

[uncut hound]

@thorny steeple

[worldly drum]

Are morals a factor in geopolitics

[uncut hound]

alright, so, you said that Jesus and Muhammed were prophets, relying the words of a creator.

[grand jolt]

Nah

[uncut hound]

then, what if those prophets twist and alter the words of their creators?

same issue essentially. it all begins with one, not many.

[worldly drum]

What do consider a prophet to be?

[upbeat belfry]

A Prophet is actually a messenger of God. How can he alter the message?

[azure whale]

Bro all politic are bulshet but we must choose bad for worst

[thorny steeple]

Yes

[uncut hound]

a person who relays the message given to them from some higher power, a member of the religious order with the highest rank and can steer his/her entire faith

[worldly drum]

No there's no must? Why must we compromise?

[feral river]

nope

[azure whale]

Who determination prophet send message of god

[uncut hound]

can you trust what Muhammed said? he was illiterate and required a scribe to write everything he saw by a vocal account.

[azure whale]

Ok what you want to do

[upbeat belfry]

With respect, he was never illiterate

[thorny steeple]

"Hahahha that is different between us you believe revelation from creator i believe the god dont be say anything to human ever" you Said
.
If that's so, that God would have been unjust. But he's not that's why he sent revelations and messengers

[uncut hound]

Jesus was born through immaculate conception, his teachings were pure, but could one of his students alter the message?

[worldly drum]

Him ﷺ being illiterate is the testament that he didn't write anything by himself

[upbeat belfry]

And it's all about belief. A religion is a belief

[thorny steeple]

He was until God chose him

[worldly drum]

He was

[azure whale]

He is illiterate he dont know how to read and write research about it!

[uncut hound]

my bad. it's been a few years since I've read it, apologies for any mistakes 👍

[worldly drum]

Everything is a belief

[uncut hound]

my point is, Christianity, islam, Buddhism, Zionism, hinduism, Zoroastrianism, any sort of belief system in this world is a product of the collective consciousness of a civilization.

[azure whale]

That is not convicing

[worldly drum]

Why do you think so?

[thorny steeple]

Give reasons for not being convinced

[uncut hound]

when humanity was still living in mud huts, we required a glue to bond us together as a community, and to find a way to explain phenomena we couldn't explain

Christianity did play a major role in influencing Europe's development, as people became more literate

[worldly drum]

So do you believe in a creator or not?

[azure whale]

They are not slave of god of who another people say!

[uncut hound]

I don't, if that answers your question

[azure whale]

Creator is real but why you thing creator must to interfere life of human and another ?

[uncut hound]

if there was a creator, all cultures would have had their own prophet, and a uniting beacon in the form of a common creator

however, we don't.

[thorny steeple]

Atheist?

[worldly drum]

Why shouldn't he?

[manic juniper]

Religions would become more similar over time instead of more differentiated

[uncut hound]

buddhism

[azure whale]

Because God does not have human morals

[uncut hound]

but Buddhism isn't a real religion if you follow the definition of Christianity or islam

[worldly drum]

In what case?

[thorny steeple]

Budhhist literally worship BUDHAA

[worldly drum]

What are human morals?

[manic juniper]

In the case they weren't created by humans

[uncut hound]

it's moreso the teachings which he gave us. we don't worship him/they directly.

[upbeat belfry]

The actual ignorance is not knowing you were created by someone and who He was. The Prophet knew it and after being chosen by God as His messenger, he could memories the whole book which he could then qoute anytime anywhere. A normal human being is not able to do that

[manic juniper]

They do not

[azure whale]

Like Interference, extravagance, slavery, kindness, forgiveness, order

[manic juniper]

Buddha is an example, many Buddhists don't even believe in deities

[azure whale]

Sooo shit

[manic juniper]

Think of Jesus, an example to follow, without any divine quality. That's Buddha

[worldly drum]

Are you saying that if religions were man made they would grow to be similar over time?

[uncut hound]

its these topics which are powder kegs of their own. we humans like to argue about things which are theoreticals so much, don't we?

[manic juniper]

I'm saying the opposite, they are man made so they grow different over time

Just like languages

[feral river]

I would say religion is about trust, it's important figure in geopolitical, and it's a political tool

[worldly drum]

Why's that?

[uncut hound]

me too, honestly. it always has been a glue to connect people at its core

[thorny steeple]

A creator who is able to create such a universe we live in and such intelligent creation like us, logically speaking knows everything about his creations. No matter how you believe the universe came into existence, there must me a beginning and it is the creator, which means he created time and space, so obviously only the creator knows everything

[manic juniper]

People that don't live together eventually come to become different, they speak different languages, discover different things, believe in different things

[uncut hound]

we don't invent religions for fun

[feral river]

its definitely not only that

[uncut hound]

then I ask you this. would a creator condone mass genocides?

[azure whale]

When you see the politican use bhuddaism for politic?

[manic juniper]

Myanmar

[worldly drum]

Good point

[manic juniper]

Any majority religion and ideology can be used as a political tool

Buddhist nationalism is a thing in Myanmar

[azure whale]

They arent real bhuddaism because they kill rohingia moslim

[manic juniper]

I know, but it's still a thing

Like I said you can turn anything into a tool

[uncut hound]

that place is so, so estranged from asian politics in general I think they're on their own island. they tout that stuff but in reality it's all a sham

vibe check- everyone here feeling comfortable with this discussion so far?

[manic juniper]

Asia has some weird countries like North Korea, Turkmenistan and Myanmar

[uncut hound]

oh definitely lol, earth in general is weird

[worldly drum]

Yeah

[uncut hound]

when you erase all preconceptions of how a culture works, everything is weird.

[azure whale]

The topic is not about creator that is about talking of god with human! That is not convinced god talk with human and say you must go to heaven!

[worldly drum]

Fr

Everything really is weird

[uncut hound]

we see things from the human perspective, which is flawed in and of itself

biases form from which we establish a worldview

[feral river]

well I'm tried to explain this but I made a ss

[thorny steeple]

Every evil that happening in this world is a result of individual acts. God gave us free will, and he gave us clear guidelines, every evil happening in this world is caused because of not following his path. And there's where the term "Hell" and "Heaven" comes in. Which means there is a consequence for every actions

[uncut hound]

send it over please, would love it

[feral river]

and this one

[upbeat belfry]

So you're saying that after a man was created he lost his connection with his creator? Like when children move out..?

[uncut hound]

can someone ping the mods to pin these these two lovelies?

[worldly drum]

Religion and science are not comparable

They deal with separate topics

[feral river]

in some field they were.

[azure whale]

Why not? I dont have real reason we must to connection with creator!

[uncut hound]

is there a consequence for all those holocaust perpetrators who escaped assassionations in the afterlife?

[worldly drum]

Which

[uncut hound]

both are a tool to shape society

[thorny steeple]

If you are someone who compares creator with human, you'll never find anything. Creator is a separate entity. He has no comparison with his creations.

[uncut hound]

they can pull the heartstrings better than any political ideology

[worldly drum]

Shape it into what?

[feral river]

when you trust god or you are gonna prove something, it comes to a conflict between belief and truth.

[uncut hound]

whatever you want, of course. it's leaders will mould it into whatever shape they desire, but only if the grains of the masses comply and compress 😉

[feral river]

I said religion is about trust.

[worldly drum]

Belief is truth

[azure whale]

Ok you say another reason about is not convincing if god connect with human😂

[worldly drum]

Everything is a belief

[uncut hound]

logically speaking, we can't tell if a creator is there, as there are too many creators to verify, and each myth doesn't start with a creator intentionally making it

[feral river]

that's why I said it's about trust

because you trust belief is truth. it's the first statement

[uncut hound]

reality breaks down the moment you don't trust anything, yeah

[feral river]

it's unfalsible, which means you can't use anything against it.

[worldly drum]

Factors that convinced someone to believe something may be different but it is all a belief afterall

[feral river]

see

because your belief is first

[uncut hound]

think for a moment. what if someone wipes your mind clear of everything. all your memories gone- a truly unbiased, pure mind. then, they give you the picture of an atrocity, and the picture of something helping others in need. what do you think would be chosen in this scenario?

[upbeat belfry]

Ok les talk abt an artist or a poet. When he creates something he puts a lit bit of his unique characteristics into his creation. Just like that a human is able to forgive another human which is a characteristic of God. So there's a beautiful connection between a creator and his creation if you feel it

[uncut hound]

then again, did god plan for evolution?

[feral river]

I would say, one thing, your brain is material

memory is your function of your brain

if you lose that part of brain you have no memory

[uncut hound]

wipe the slate clean

[feral river]

over.

[azure whale]

He say we dont have thing of god and i answer

[uncut hound]

very succinct, yes.

[feral river]

so this statment is actually incorrect.

it's comparable it even has conflict

[uncut hound]

okay this has been cooking like a stew for quite some time

[worldly drum]

What's the conflict?

[uncut hound]

coffee break everyone, let's gather our thoughts and conclusions

[worldly drum]

Just had some tea

[uncut hound]

we don't want this to become dissonant from the original topic haha

[uncut hound]

aye bitter tea?

[worldly drum]

I think we should decide a topic and then stick to it

[feral river]

the conflict of science is about truth, it's falsible, but religion is about trust, it's unfalsible

[uncut hound]

that's my favorite

[worldly drum]

Sweeeeet

Too sweet actually

[feral river]

I think I don't need further explain to this

[upbeat belfry]

We're not able to have all of the properties that God has. We being humans can't forgive each and everyone very easily, right? But God can. So it's just a few drops that he pours into us not the whole of it

[uncut hound]

aw dang, not a lot of people enjoy bitter it seems

[feral river]

it's clear.

[worldly drum]

That's because they deal with separate questions

[worldly drum]

Not me

[azure whale]

Bhuddaism that is try to be do it you must try to be god and have all goodnes thing in morals and dont believe that be human to go to magic place!

[uncut hound]

I think we really should short the fuse on this one

[feral river]

well I don't think if you can 100% faith with god and trust science at the same time.

but it's possible ? idk I don't trust god.

[uncut hound]

I think it's satisfactorily concluded

[worldly drum]

Most religious people trust in science and God at the same time and have no problems

[uncut hound]

whether God decided that we should go into the domain of space and reap it's rewards, it's unknown

just enjoy life 😉

[feral river]

maybe that's why religion exist till now.

if they don't trust science, they will know how science powerful is

and trust it by force.

[worldly drum]

What does that mean?

[uncut hound]

that's my core principle, enjoy life while you still can. you see war in Ukraine and Israel and you see the devastation wracked upon those lands

[upbeat belfry]

Well, I'm not trying to be a God. It's just about morals, we should at least have some conscious. This is why we are called humans and not animals

[feral river]

it means if they don't trust science, they will facing huge problem from technology evolution, and they may backward with other civilizations

[uncut hound]

I'd like to point you guys to Ontology if you want to discuss more

[azure whale]

Humanity is not about allah and jesus that is about how you do with society

[feral river]

and being eliminated or conquered by other civilization

[uncut hound]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology%23:~:text%3DIn%2520metaphysics%252C%2520ontology%2520is%2520the,even%2520is%2520a%2520fundamental%2520level).&ved=2ahUKEwji8PDhwI-EAxV50jQHHa7_ASgQFnoECBUQBQ&usg=AOvVaw3Zm4sNSZKHWKDj9XWsWMMO

[worldly drum]

That's very interesting

[uncut hound]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology#%3A~%3Atext%3DIn_metaphysics%2C_ontology_is_the%2Ceven_is_a_fundamental_level).?wprov=sfla1

[upbeat belfry]

Religion tells us how to behave in a society.. It tells us what are the rights that we possess and what duties we have to perform.

[abstract hamlet]

Hi

Anyone for english practice

[worldly drum]

Hi shivam

[abstract hamlet]

Huzaifah you from

[worldly drum]

What does your name mean?

[azure whale]

Islam jewish and cristian and the religion like this all are only say what you must do to the creator dont be sad from you to go to magic place!

[worldly drum]

Your neighbour

[feral river]

I guess ? in a religious society if you are irreligion you might be a strange

[worldly drum]

The one you don't like 🤣

[abstract hamlet]

Bangladesh

[feral river]

but it's not happening in secular.

[thorny steeple]

Yes God connect with human, that's why he sent prophets. If that's not convincing you it's not my problem lol.

[worldly drum]

Pakistan

[abstract hamlet]

Which city

[worldly drum]

Karachi

[abstract hamlet]

My ancestors root from peshawar

[thorny steeple]

Exactly.

[azure whale]

Your last sentence is end of convince in your brain😂

[uncut hound]

irreligious is the correct form of irreligion btw

[worldly drum]

Oh nice, mine from Hansot, it's a village near Surat, Gujrat

[uncut hound]

it find it interesting how some of us are so staunchly religious tbh

[thorny steeple]

Haha what you mean "magic place" lol.
It's the real world, he created us in earth to test us this is just a temporary word

[uncut hound]

alright frn I think you can end the discussion now

[upbeat belfry]

You might get the answer when you die!!

[uncut hound]

it's been settled now

[cerulean ore]

What a peculiar argument

[uncut hound]

ayeeeee that's... uhhhh... don't you think a little inappropriate?

😬

[worldly drum]

Yup it's very interesting how different human thought process can be

[abstract hamlet]

Good

[thorny steeple]

It is inappropriate I agree, but it's a fact as well don't you think? No matter if you're muslim, Hindu budhhist or atheist, you will realise after death

[worldly drum]

Well it's the ultimate answer

[upbeat belfry]

He was talking about the magic place (and I didn't understand his English btw it was actually confusing tho!!

[uncut hound]

we can however always use religious motifs in our creative works though. art, music, architecture, etc etc. these can all be influenced by the tides of religion and science equally and that's why I think the arts are a noble pursuit

[azure whale]

Transmogrification!

[uncut hound]

to find meaning from our own works, like our own prophet dispelling the gospel

[azure whale]

That is last place before nirvana if you fail in world you come again there

[uncut hound]

all I know is, we are made of atoms, quarks and nothing but matter

[worldly drum]

Yup art really is the most human thing

[upbeat belfry]

Are you an atheist btw?

[uncut hound]

does the Galaxy care about religion? probably not. it's got way cooler things than crazy lore on a muddy planet

[worldly drum]

That too we're not sure lol

[uncut hound]

buddhist, but I have a very reductive view of people

[thorny steeple]

"human life is a cycle of suffering and rebirth" this was view of Budha because of his circumstances in life. Insted of him thinking something positive, he delves into his fears lol

[upbeat belfry]

No offence but did the galaxy tell you it doesn't care at all?

[uncut hound]

then why do other states if matter exist?

[uncut hound]

I can't, but does it really matter in the grand scheme of things when earth explodes a billion years later?

[worldly drum]

Can the galaxy care? I think humans are greater than most things

[worldly drum]

I was referring to the lowest common denominator

We don't know what that is yet na

[upbeat belfry]

It does. At least for humans! Otherwise you must've been a cow eating grass all day and enjoying all day long!! They don't have to use their brains

[uncut hound]

my philosophy may contrast you all, but I hold the opinion that, as a human, created by a creator or a god, we should contribute to life through art and other expressions of the self

[worldly drum]

I agree

[uncut hound]

to repay the debts, however the debtor might be, with gifts of the mind

[thorny steeple]

You probably think every religion is the same. The thing is different religions was meant to people from different time period, all religions in the past are corrupted by its people. Inorder to understand if a religion is true or not, there is it's scriptures.
Does galaxy care about religion? No galaxy is not a living thing, we are the ultimate creation

[uncut hound]

I'm estatic you agree haha

[uncut hound]

that's a human way to think of it. humans, always at the center of the Galaxy, they say!

but the. you see black holes, and the cold indifference of the universe

[feral river]

it's like what society you are in and what habits you have to be, it's not just religion or irreligious

[uncut hound]

interesting 🤔

but religion gives us hope in an otherwise uncaring world, basically

[feral river]

just like me, I'm a conservative natioalist communist when I was in my own country, China, but I'm much liberal when I was in Singapore and Japan, even I ever been dubai I need to know something about Islam even allah stuff.

[uncut hound]

i wish we had an alien to lecture us lol

👽

[worldly drum]

What if we lecture the aliens

[uncut hound]

maybe, it's all because we are humans?

[thorny steeple]

Maybe, maybe not. Galaxies are creation of God aswell. That doesn't change the fact that there's no creator or disprove his religion

[worldly drum]

🥰

[feral river]

it's about society effect, because if you don't do something like other people they will see you as a strange and it's hard to get along with them

[uncut hound]

they would probably laugh at us, seeing us as nothing but crazed apes lol

[feral river]

same logic on religion, habits, festivals etc....

[uncut hound]

to invent faster than light travel is near godlike

[worldly drum]

The need for hope seems to be uniquely human

[thorny steeple]

I mean people who couldn't believe in God believing in aliens is crazy lol

[feral river]

you are definitely a strange if you were religious in China, and some people may hate you for some reason idk

but that's normal.

[uncut hound]

any technology advanced enough can be considered magic to an undeveloped civilization

what if god is an alien?

[cerulean ore]

Just because something is grand or awe-inspiring doesn't mean it was created by a god

The universe is vast and complex, yes, but that doesn't mean it was designed by some divine being

[worldly drum]

Nah bro I think the best of humanity really are something extraordinary

[feral river]

well, religion is unfalsible.

[thorny steeple]

Doesn't mean it's "not" a created by a God either

[feral river]

I guess you guys don't know what is unflasible mean ?

[upbeat belfry]

Yes because they might have never been to your country. If a muslim comes to china and ask you not give him pork you will find it strange.

[thorny steeple]

What you mean "alien" lol

[feral river]

unfalsible which means you can't prove this is wrong

[cerulean ore]

It's not. Did you even read my argument?

[abstract hamlet]

Hi

[feral river]

just like, I said I created this world, but all of you guys don't know, can you prove this is wrong ?

this is type of unfalsible.

[uncut hound]

i think some of us are just more devout than others

[thorny steeple]

Yep, just because is grand or awe-inspiring doesn't mean in came from NOTHINGNESS all by itself

[worldly drum]

This claim is very much falsible

[upbeat belfry]

Ahahaha. Alien is a foreigner who's not among us. And God is not one us because he is not a human ofc.

[cerulean ore]

Nobody said that

[uncut hound]

but, you said forgiveness is something god gave us, no?

what is truly "human", then?

[cerulean ore]

We can't definitively prove that the universe wasn't created by a god. But neither can we prove that it was.

[thorny steeple]

You said it doesn't have to be created by God, otherwise what

[feral river]

I would say how do you explain this ?

[cerulean ore]

It's all a matter of faith, of belief

[feral river]

if I trust I was the god, and it's my belief, I use myself to explain everything which means it's unfalsible for sure.

[thorny steeple]

If it wasn't, how did the universe came into existence?

[cerulean ore]

We need evidence, we need reason, we need logic. We can't just close our eyes and pretend that everything will work out because we believe in a higher power

[uncut hound]

or whatever you believe lol. reality is our own brains perception of what happens outside the pink mushy interior

[upbeat belfry]

I said God pours a lil bit of drops which means we does not possess the amount of qualities he has

[worldly drum]

If claim that you created everything you would have to know about everything aswell

[feral river]

I don't need to have to know, all I need to trust.

[thorny steeple]

Logically, nothing can comes into an existence out of nowhere

[feral river]

trust is all enough, you don't to prove why jesus exist.

all you need is trust, that's how religion works

[worldly drum]

Are we the mind or the body?

Are we the brain?

What even are we lol

[thorny steeple]

Not everything about the religion is about truth, but yeah mostly

[upbeat belfry]

If you say you created me. Can you take away my soul and then bring me back to life for once? That's what a God can

[feral river]

if you trust me, of course I can

first is your trust me

[uncut hound]

true

[thorny steeple]

Ok I trust you, now take my soul

[feral river]

you can't prove how jesus send you to the heaven but you may trust.

then why can't you just trust me and I will put you on the heaven ?

that's unfalsible works.

[cerulean ore]

Yes and that doesn't mean that the universe had to be created by a god. It could have always existed, as I mentioned earlier.

[uncut hound]

true. this could all be a fabricated reality.

[feral river]

religion is based on trust.

[worldly drum]

Can you tell me what color my eyes are?

[formal pilot]

Which God we're talking about?

[worldly drum]

Since you created me you would know

[feral river]

the color of your eye is the color of your soul

[worldly drum]

The creator of everything

[cerulean ore]

rather than clinging to dogma, to rigid beliefs, why not try exploring and questioning them?

[uncut hound]

at the end of the day, these are just human constructs-something we built half arsed and then left the philosophers to debate about to gain wisdom clout

[upbeat belfry]

😂

[feral river]

what your soul looks like, your eye is what it was looks like

[uncut hound]

that's my satirical take

[feral river]

XD I created a religion

[formal pilot]

I don't know which God is creator of everything, please educate me

[upbeat belfry]

The only God, Allah

[feral river]

it's me, I created everything

[thorny steeple]

Did you forget the fact that time exists? Which means there is a beginning? What you said can be applied to god since he created everything. How are you able to believe universe could have already existed Instead of God which makes atleast a bit more sence

[cerulean ore]

I would believe you

[feral river]

you can find answer on me, you can pray, you can express your faith

[uncut hound]

is Allah the true God? does this mean one religion takes precedent over others because you follow it?

[feral river]

and I will send you to the heaven no matter what

[upbeat belfry]

A human creating another human!! lolllll. A chair creating another chair

[abstract hamlet]

Anyone wanna practice english

[feral river]

I was not just a human, I was a god's son

god told me I was his son when I was in dream

[worldly drum]

There's definitely going to be someone in the VCs

[thorny steeple]

How

[upbeat belfry]

Yes I believe there's no God other than Allah

[uncut hound]

your way of understanding in very human. concepts of time and space are made up by humans.

[uncut hound]

what if I don't?

[upbeat belfry]

Owhh a God would have a son? It means he was not alone? He had a wife? And he had to do what a human has to do in order to have another God

[formal pilot]

So you believe in Allah? That means you believe in Muhammad (pbuh).
Can you please explain how he splitted the moon?

[feral river]

actually he has a great family.

[upbeat belfry]

That's none of my business then!!

[uncut hound]

isn't a family a human thing?

cuckoos lay eggs in other nests and let the birds be adopted

[cerulean ore]

The Big Bang theory proposes that the universe began as a singularity, a point of infinite density and temperature, that exploded outward, giving rise to space and time. Now, of course you wouldn't have this basic knowledge because you don't want to see the truth

[upbeat belfry]

Who told you the Prophet spitted the moon?

[uncut hound]

okay I think this is rapidly going to create discourse one day

[upbeat belfry]

That means his whole family is God

[uncut hound]

islam is a very touchy topic and so is religion

[worldly drum]

What will?

[uncut hound]

anything controversial will. this especially

[cerulean ore]

Dw, we argue about this same topic typically everyday

[worldly drum]

Arguments aren't necessarily bad

[thorny steeple]

The concept of time itself is not a made up this but, the way we calculate might be. Everyone's understanding is human, since God gave human a special level of intelligence.
If time is just a concept, there wouldn't be any ongoing activities or movements. No time = NOTHINGNESS

[upbeat belfry]

It's interesting to know how others perceive things

[uncut hound]

frn is pretty staunch on his view of god created the universe, and everyone is digging the heels

[formal pilot]

Quran in sura al qamar 54 (1:2)

[uncut hound]

can you tell me of why this the case?

[worldly drum]

What does digging heels mean m

[thorny steeple]

Why what the case?

Good morning!

[worldly drum]

Good Evening

[thorny steeple]

Logically, the universe did not came into existence all by itself

[uncut hound]

without us, time would cease, in our sense, to exist. because we perceive time as a passage of the day. ever seen a white room?

that room is all white. you can't see anything but white. our sense of time is lost the moment there is no reference point

[worldly drum]

Is time really just our perception of it?

[cerulean ore]

It is indeed very compelling to see how people just blindly accept dogma, doctrine, of ideas that have no basis in fact, no foundation in reason

[uncut hound]

it really is, fellow mushy pink slab person

[uncut hound]

it's a roundhouse kick! this time with generational indoctrination

[worldly drum]

What are the basis of fact and reason?

[uncut hound]

fact is something that is true, proven by evidence and with consensus

[cerulean ore]

Apparently not the Qur'an

[feral river]

when it comes to something you can't explain by science, the power of trust is coming out which is religion occupying those fields.

[worldly drum]

What qualifies as evidence? Is it just consensus?

[thorny steeple]

In that case, without us there would be the term "science" even though everything would be bound with science.
"Passage of the day" day and night is the result of movement of solar system, which we experience as night and day. For someone who can think clearly, the night and day is one proof for existence of God

[silver vault]

But what about my single argument that I can provide by just saying - go read the Qur'an

[uncut hound]

I'm honestly too sleepy to argue with y'all, but it's been a good ride. have good night 😉👍💤😴

[formal pilot]

I read it, still I'm atheist

[worldly drum]

Where're from?

[cerulean ore]

Relatable

[upbeat belfry]

Owh that. The Prophet PBUH invoked God's powers to prove he was His messenger. Some scientists believe that the linear rilles might have formed after large impact events, while others believe that the rilles were formed as a surface manifestation of deep-seated dike systems when the moon was still volcanically active

[feral river]

because you trust.

[worldly drum]

Are you a gnostic atheist?

Or agnostic?