🧠｜serious-chat

[lethal sparrow]

again, you won't tell me where you live. because i'd look up your countries labor practices and i'm sure its comfy af compared to the USA.

[white shard]

Capitalistic class with ALWAYS make changes

[lethal sparrow]

ou think that your problems are bigger than everyone else's
uh, no. America is a shithole. That's my entire point. Nothing else.

[white shard]

That's why US constitution has so many amendments and that's why living standards in the word have risen significantly

[thorny steeple]

It's not the matter. I suggest you calm yourself before making arguments, as at the moment they're senseless, seemingly.

[lethal sparrow]

basically, there's like... three or four good amendments...

[lethal sparrow]

nah. you're dodging the question because the working conditions i suffer through are completely foreign to the working conditions you suffer through. you get that?

[white shard]

No one is challenging your opinion about USA being a shithole. Don't be a dismissive runt

[thorny steeple]

Define suffering. Working hours and conditions depend on your job for the most part, not the country you live in.

[lethal sparrow]

good. i want everyone in the world to scream it at the same time.

[lethal sparrow]

not the country you live in.
WHAT

r e g u l a t i o n s
bro

[white shard]

kids, don't do drugs or you will be like smiles

[thorny steeple]

How can you claim that when you're unfamiliar with my working conditions?

[lethal sparrow]

now you're shitting on drug users? where are you from? holy shit

[thorny steeple]

Are you justifying drug abuse?

[white shard]

No, I am specifically making fun of you, don't twist my words, honey

[lethal sparrow]

i am, completely. and if those conditions were really shitty, you wouldn't be talking about how much you love it. make sense?

[lethal sparrow]

ah you're bad at it.

[thorny steeple]

Smile is in fact a type of drug

[white shard]

I think I'm quite good at it. I mean, I got quite a violent response from you. I can feel your face getting redder

[lethal sparrow]

violent? you think that's violent? lol i can tell you're not american too haha

euros are so soft. i love it. i wish everyone was as soft as you two

[thorny steeple]

And if you were, you'd know that one cannot make conclusions taking solely one's personal conditions in regard. I have never claimed that I do love work, on the other hand. Does that make sense to you?

[white shard]

you just keep on giving, you're tilted so much

[lethal sparrow]

nah but for example, i could tell you how many vacations you get from ANY employer because it's mandated by law.

you won't tell me, because i could tell you how comfy your countries' working conditions are for employees.

[thorny steeple]

@white shard , it's aimless to argue with quite the stubborn people.

[thorny steeple]

Topic-unrelated, once again.

[lethal sparrow]

yeah, you won't answer anything because i'll pin you to the wall lmao

that's fine. but you don't know what "hard" work is. because if you did, you'd hate it too. :)

[thorny steeple]

Well, sure. You have your point that the work you do is quite unbearable; however, to me it seems that it's a problem of your country, not one of work culture

[lethal sparrow]

capitalist work culture
it's... let me see here... oh it's shit. wow.

[thorny steeple]

You've so far asked one question.

[lethal sparrow]

yeah its the only one that matters here because your experience with the labor market is vastly different from mine. so what country do you live in?

[thorny steeple]

You wouldn't know what I'd hate and what I wouldn't. I'd call that inapt assumptions.

[thorny steeple]

I'll withhold from answering your question, thank you.

[lethal sparrow]

you're right, i don't care about you. have a nice day.

bro... are you serious? you don't really know anything, do you...? oh my god

i mean we all gotta learn something eventually so its ok if you're new to all this. but wow. what a statement.

[white shard]

You two don't understand that extremes are present everywhere. Workers are underpaid everywhere and people suffer regardless of their country of residence

[thorny steeple]

Truly, that might be incorrect

[white shard]

I cannot comprehend how much of a deluded prick you'd have to be to say that you have the most problems. Main character syndrome?

[thorny steeple]

I admit my plausible mistake

[thorny steeple]

I do bear that in mind

[lethal sparrow]

uh, no shit. that's what i'm a fucking socialist. but you can definitely compare using definitive statistics and related laws to determine the level of advantages or disadvantages the working class of a particular country has and then compare two countries together.
you're the one defending capitalism here. don't talk to me about the raw deal average people get in this nightmare economic system.

[lethal sparrow]

uh, when did i ever say that? all i said is that america is a shithole and we got past that. holy shit.

[vernal crypt]

I'll argue your point
While the EU may have competitive capitolistic markets, most European countries offer socialised medicine, adequate pay and sick pay, vacation days that you don't need to accrue after years of employment and maternity leave that's more than acceptable.
Some European countries offer a monthly nominal stipend to help you meet your child's needs as well.
America does none of that.
Obama tried but his 8byears in office only scratched the surface and there are states that have such a low paying minimum wage, it's impossible to get ahead.

[white shard]

Defending capitalim, not really. Capitalism doesn't need to be defended.

[lethal sparrow]

oh but it does. both physically and ideologically. there's a big industry around both.

[vernal crypt]

It defends itself.
Most political figures support capitolism

And they are the puppets of the multinationals

[lethal sparrow]

most sustainable and satisfactory economic system is capitalism coupled with substantial socialist reform.
here ya go, defending capitalism.

[white shard]

Like I stated before, capitalism is perfectly natural, though heavily amplified in terms of the gaps between classes.

[lethal sparrow]

"perfectly natural"
what does this mean? there's nothing "natural" about industrialization, private property, hierarchy or wage slavery.

[white shard]

Hence the phrase "heavily amplified" and "capitalism coupled with substantial socialist reform"

[lethal sparrow]

you talk about capitalism being "sustainable" which is literally impossible. the system demands infinite growth on a finite planet.
(if you haven't noticed, it's on fire because of capitalism shhh)

[thorny steeple]

"your experience with the labor market is vastly different from mine", "but you don't know what /"hard"/ work is", "how comfy your countries' working conditions are", "if those conditions were really shitty". Did you ever consider me being a North African or a Middle Eastern? In those countries people are denied basic labour rights

[white shard]

That's why we have wealth redistribution every now and then

[white shard]

I think they're more focused on the western europe

[thorny steeple]

Undoubtedly

[white shard]

which is honestly the most comfortable place to live in

not to say that people don't have problems there, too

[lethal sparrow]

Did you ever consider me being a North African or a Middle Eastern? In those countries people are denied basic labour rights
no, i didn't. i expected you to be from Germany, Austria or Switzerland with a username like Grundstücksverkehrsgenehmigungszuständigkeitsübertragungsverordnung

[thorny steeple]

Why, incorrect assumptions once more

[lethal sparrow]

yeah, it's gonna stay that way too. your fault

[white shard]

@lethal sparrow can I ask you a minute favor?

[thorny steeple]

This has nothing to do with me. You're the one who holds these beliefs

[lethal sparrow]

you won't correct it. you're the one who holds that.

not my problem

[white shard]

So, it's his problem because you assume something?

[thorny steeple]

I have never said it is mine, as well. It is not my duty to correct them

[lethal sparrow]

his problem is that he won't answer a question. doesn't want to. can't make him. don't care.

[karmic flax]

What's the difference between being humble and having low-self esteem?

[lethal sparrow]

so i'm gonna assume you're a soft european baby and that's how i like it

[thorny steeple]

That's the thing! You don't care.

[lethal sparrow]

you don't care to tell me what country you live in.

[white shard]

when you have low self-esteem, you think you are less important than others and less valuable

[thorny steeple]

Assume all you wish. It doesn't change the truth

[thorny steeple]

For I believe it is unrelated

[lethal sparrow]

good. i will Grundstücksverkehrsgenehmigungszuständigkeitsübertragungsverordnung. thanks for playing.

[white shard]

When you are humble, you don't need other people to put unnecessary focus onto you.

[thorny steeple]

You're very welcome

[lethal sparrow]

np

[thorny steeple]

Or you have a modest perspective of yourself

[white shard]

I think I understand now... Smiles is just jealous of the europeans

[lethal sparrow]

no. both of you are rude.

[thorny steeple]

Shocking news!

[vernal crypt]

Smiles
Don't take it to heart.

[static pivot]

tooks it to heart

[vernal crypt]

Every country has it's good, bad and ugly.

[static pivot]

Lady!

So what's goin on everyone

[white shard]

@lethal sparrow well, if you could JUST ackowledge that other people (even in europe) might have a more difficult life than you, nothing would've happened.

That's just what I want

[vernal crypt]

Correction:
Took it to heart

[thorny steeple]

I am sorry to hear you've been wounded by our rudeness. I wouldn't want you to feel that way

[lethal sparrow]

jealous? no... not particularly. it's good that euros have different ideals than americans though. the results speak for itself

[static pivot]

[lethal sparrow]

europes a big place. depends on which country. then i could agree.

[vernal crypt]

[white shard]

I don't even care about anything else. While not intimately, I am familiar with both the working conditions and the inequalities present in every aspect of american life.

I agree that it is a shithole, but it is my favorite shithole and the place I want to move to.

[lethal sparrow]

but otherwise, no, americans are having by far a worse time. phew.

[white shard]

but all I want

[vernal crypt]

Yeah
I feel like this debate is missing something
You describe Europe like it's a country..

It's a continent

[static pivot]

All i want is a nice song by kodaline

[vernal crypt]

Who is kodaline?

[static pivot]

https://open.spotify.com/track/0NlGoUyOJSuSHmngoibVAs?si=I8V_dv09SsCSiQWz4WrrVA

Give it a try

[vernal crypt]

Ok

[lethal sparrow]

nah. you really have to aim for the bottom to be a poor european living a harder life than a poor american. is that even possible...?

[white shard]

I know both americans and europeans who are having a tough time. Europe is slightly better than the US, but far from being as good as you're portraying it

There is no heaven on earth

[lethal sparrow]

look. all i know is what would happen if a european walked into the ER versus an American. Or a school. So on, so on.

[white shard]

(apart from Switzerland)

we all can shit on switzerland together

[lethal sparrow]

"slightly better" is an understatement. there are true developing world, absolute poverty conditions in the united states.

you really think you know about american life... but you have no clue...

[white shard]

you don't even know what I know

once again pure assumptions

[lethal sparrow]

its not a lot. that i can tell

[white shard]

and dismissive language

[white shard]

Certainly not as much as those who are intinately familiar with the system

I am an observer. I am gathering bits and pieces

and making a bigger picture

[lethal sparrow]

you should probably stay where you are. unless you're trying to do human rights abuses for some black project, don't come to america

(not in the ICC)

[white shard]

However, do you think that when I have american friends, I don't talk to them about anything work-related at all?

[white shard]

I live in Russia

heavenly place, right?

now the system in russia I am more inimately familiar with

[lethal sparrow]

meh. you'll be grinded up into gruel like the rest of the immigrants and native born who live here. good luck.

[white shard]

Looking forward to it

Thank you

[lethal sparrow]

god i hate america

[white shard]

then why don't you move?

[lethal sparrow]

working on it

[white shard]

hope everything works out for you

[lethal sparrow]

you think putin will drop the nukes

[white shard]

no

[lethal sparrow]

what a puss lol

[white shard]

I don't think any human with at least 3 neurons would do that

[lethal sparrow]

too bad its illegal to protest in russia

"pussy" would be a good one

[patent quarry]

Chill

@vernal crypt lady

[lethal sparrow]

@thorny steeple
The aim is “to abolish work and replace it, insofar as it serves useful purposes, with a multitude of new kinds of free activities. To abolish work requires going at it from two directions, quantitative and qualitative.” In terms of the first, “we need to cut down massively the amount of working being done” (luckily, “most work is useless or worse and we should simply get rid of it”). For the second, “we have to take what useful work remains and transform it into a pleasing variety of game-like and craft-like pastimes, indistinguishable from other pleasurable pastimes, except that the happen to yield useful end-products.”

[lavish finch]

Following

You say that the aim is to abolish work. To replace it with activities that are more like useful recreation.

Activities that are pleasurable but also productive.

Do you mean quit jobs which are a problem?

Living for the future. Rather than living for the now

[full river]

[lavish finch]

It is? In what way?

Seems like the future could go either way.

Better or worse.

I resist the temptation to predict as much as possible.

[vernal crypt]

You want detention, sonny?😤

[lavish finch]

I believe democratizing the workplace can move us in the direction that smiles is describing.

[thorny steeple]

If I were eisan, I'd argue that the future holds more possibilities than the present. If you think about it, what even is the future? One is always living in present time, one can never really end up in future time (or, in fact, in the past). Therefore, I'd claim that the future is and will always be better, because it is intangible and out of reach, it brings hope for a person, whether that hope is falsely evoked or not

[lavish finch]

You see the future as holding possibilities that provide reasons for hope.

The future is better because we never arrive there.

[thorny steeple]

Precisely

[lavish finch]

The future is unknown and there are possibilities in the unknown

[full river]

Because predictions can be a try to avoid reality, or an obstacle that makes it difficult to see the reality

[thorny steeple]

My future will be better in Europe.

[lavish finch]

That sounds like a positive prediction

We are at the edge of the known looking into the future.

Things could get better or worse depending upon what we do in the present.

[full river]

It is so difficult sometimes just to be curious instead of creating the possible images of the unknown in our minds

[thorny steeple]

Why should you refrain from doing so?

[lavish finch]

As Sherlock Holmes says. Without data we begin to create theories that adhere to our prejudices.

[full river]

"It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

[full river]

It usually gets more difficult to accurately estimate the reality when we go to the fantasy world we create in our heads. It has happened to me many times. Maybe not always

[thorny steeple]

I'll rejoin the conversation later. I must sadly leave for the moment

[lavish finch]

ok

[thorny steeple]

In my case,I like to think,about future will be better or try again many times.I know If I try so hard ...

[lavish finch]

I distinguish between creating a plan and then working towards a plan versus predicting.

[thorny steeple]

I'm sorry is difficult write my ideas because, english is no my language,but I try...

[lavish finch]

Have you tried using Google translate?

[patent quarry]

Having a plan and then executing it

[lavish finch]

Right so give us your response.

[thorny steeple]

Well, I did say "if I were you"

[lavish finch]

For extra credit, which conditional is that?

[full river]

second? 😄

[lavish finch]

Explain your answer

[thorny steeple]

Google translate is no bad,but I prefer without Google translate,I must think in english,is not easy,but I try again until that my English will be perfect,I'm sure one day come,I know.I think so.

[full river]

Is it addressed to me? 👀

[lavish finch]

Yes. That’s right. The second conditional is used to create hypotheticals.

unreal situations

[full river]

yes. Related to the present and future

[thorny steeple]

why should we study, when life is our greatest teacher ?

[full river]

What life has taught you so far?

[lavish finch]

I suggest using both

it will give you examples to use to think with

[thorny steeple]

the lessons that make a human great

[thorny steeple]

Because it's fun

[full river]

That's a little vague. Could you be more specific? For instance, I studies and learned another language, I learned how to teach, practiced and learned how to cook etc. And what have you learned?

[thorny steeple]

this is the start of the downfall of a one individual.. we laugh and enjoy.. but then we realise that we cannot make success by it.. it only leads to endless line of sins

[ivory vale]

Hi

[full river]

It's strange right? When I imagine life teaching us, it is usually bitter experiences that we go through and rarely something pleasant

Hi Neli

[lavish finch]

you believe that fun and enjoyment lead to sin?

Hi Neli

[thorny steeple]

That's a very interesting and sort of a restrictive value.

[thorny steeple]

if you need a teacher to tell you how to do something.. then i guess there is no function for brains at that one moment

[thorny steeple]

Yeah, life experience can be bitter. And some may use that as an excuse to be miserable.

[thorny steeple]

can we build a memory without a movment ?

[full river]

We usually need someone or something to learn from, be it a person, a book, experiences or something else

[thorny steeple]

tell that to those fully educated war criminals that are killing enough.. with their education

[full river]

My impression is that you limit studying to taking classes from a teacher and for some reason underestimating it

[thorny steeple]

I'm not totally against thinking for yourself, but having a mentor may help you reach your goal quickly, and easily.

[thorny steeple]

they underastimate our ability of discovery... if you accept this kind of disrespect..

[full river]

So you're against education because some well educated people create wars and violence

[thorny steeple]

you missed the point like a striking lightning.. it is not a must to have a degree to be someone great

you could be a super villan

[full river]

What is disrespect exactly?

[thorny steeple]

when you are listining to what you can do and see

[lavish finch]

Could you get the point you missed Nargiz💬?

[full river]

Your point is we dont need education to become a great person right?

[full river]

I was just going to do so 🙃

[full river]

Let me fix it a little bit. In your last statement you said degree and not education.

[thorny steeple]

can you stop a crime with education ? can do a crime while having education? is your answer

[full river]

well, you're replying to a question with another question, which makes it difficult to understand you and what I would actually like to do

[thorny steeple]

let education save you..

[full river]

Let it save all of us

[thorny steeple]

with failure

[thorny steeple]

we have been waiting decades for this moment.. and no sign of peace just yet..

[full river]

And what do you think we need for peace?

[thorny steeple]

i thought your precious "education" can answer you... but as expected.. it failed

[full river]

My education is not capable enough to read your mind. I have my own answers. But I wanted to hear yours as well. Wanted to hear some ideas about solutions instead of just questions.

It is fine if you dont feel like sharing though

[thorny steeple]

i see more qustions from an educator than the learner.. so disappointing

[ivory vale]

You see many educated humans commit crimes. So you believe education is not a solution to reach peace. Right?

[thorny steeple]

if gods couldn't save us from commiting a sin.. how could a humanly created system does ?

[full river]

yes. Sounds disappointing. Who do you consider an educator and the learner in this case?

[thorny steeple]

so many qustions from you.. what is so called the "master" by the no one

[full river]

Ok. I'll hold back from asking questions to you

[thorny steeple]

Here's some perspective. From my, and maybe the reader of your comment point of view, you seem to be just arguing for argument sake, jumping from one point or question to another without getting to the bane of the idea you're trying to deliver.

[lavish finch]

And what are you going to do instead? Reflect and join?

[thorny steeple]

maybe ask your "teachers" im sure they would have the same reactions

[lavish finch]

that’s what I call a mind read

[thorny steeple]

if the reciver is not working.. it is not my mistake to make them operate again

[ornate siren]

Hello

[full river]

I reflected already, but couldnt check it. Instead got rhetorical questions in reply. and yes, i was really ready to join

[ivory vale]

Hi Nocturnal

[lavish finch]

So you don’t know what you’re going to do instead.

[full river]

Heyy

[ornate siren]

May I join?

[full river]

I could talk to myself, with or without joining

[thorny steeple]

i suggest you to kneel for the only one master.. life.. is the only one that can answer the hardest of qustions

[full river]

Always welcome

[lavish finch]

You’re blaming

[ivory vale]

I agree

[full river]

Yes, and there is desire to push for an answer

[lavish finch]

You’re already pushing for an answer

[ornate siren]

Life is the medium through which we drive our curiosity to seek answers.

It's not an omniscient entity.

Just a way of achieving omniscience.

[full river]

true

[thorny steeple]

we can know the flames pain from touching it and feeling it.. not by a human suggesting that they own you.. there is a reason why we have 6 senses

[lavish finch]

you could take a step back

[valid raven]

Dot rule lol

Sorry I'm not serious enough for this channel

[lavish finch]

Nonsense!

[ornate siren]

You'll still be living when you decide not to touch the flames.

[thorny steeple]

need more education..? they got you

[ornate siren]

Your life will still be going on.

[lavish finch]

Get back here and instruct us on the dot rules.

[full river]

I believe it was a try to step back

[ornate siren]

Unless you decide to end it and stop pushing on.

[thorny steeple]

not peacfully.. only the touch of the pain can make us back away from it

[ornate siren]

But you still back away.

[thorny steeple]

that is the lesson of the touch..

[ornate siren]

And a lesson, that you earned while living. If the medium of life were not given to you, there'd be nothing to learn.

[ornate siren]

Do you not understand the dot rule?

[thorny steeple]

i would guess that these teachers needed to listen to someone teeling them that the flames can burn.. otherwise they all would have been burnet by now

[lavish finch]

Stop at red go on green?

[ornate siren]

No, I'd wager she meant many of us, like you and me, ending each one of our comments with a full stop.

[lavish finch]

So then it’s a descriptive rule.

It’s describing what many of us are doing.

[ornate siren]

So it seems.

Empiricism.

[ivory vale]

I thought she was talking about the math rule of doing dot operations before line operations.

[ornate siren]

Nope, LOL

[lavish finch]

I thought she was abbreviating the department of transportation.

D.O.T.

[full river]

And this someone would be the life itself or life experiences, the best teacher

[ornate siren]

SERIOUS CHAT: Hugely different opinions, one lucrative confluence. (Advertisment)

[lavish finch]

The grand confluence

[ornate siren]

Experience is the best teacher (metaphorically) and life is the medium through which it teaches.

[thorny steeple]

you are making me think that you need a player to make you experience things.. i mean why do we have 6 senses ?

"hello everyone.. today we will learn how to touch things"

[full river]

I agree

[ornate siren]

Exactly!

[ornate siren]

Glad we're in agreement.

[lavish finch]

box 9, Integrating

[ornate siren]

Seems like we're never leaving the SAVI Grid. Good.

[lavish finch]

I just find it too useful to leave

[full river]

I'm happy that we dont

[ornate siren]

Truly, analysing verbal interactions can be important for communication throughout life.

[thorny steeple]

don't mind them.. they needed someone to tell them that.. and without them they would have been LOST

[ornate siren]

Pardon?

[thorny steeple]

it is time to move more than listen

[lavish finch]

Don’t worry. I don’t think anyone is listening.

[ornate siren]

What's everyone doing, then?

[lavish finch]

Quipping

[ornate siren]

Fine

[thorny steeple]

how is life without teachers? so mesriable that we don't even know if the flames were hot or cold

[ornate siren]

Quips convert debates into playful dialectics.

[lavish finch]

yes

[thorny steeple]

it is the only way we learn buddy

[ornate siren]

We've had the equipment to sense that from the beginning. Experience teaches us to analyse the feelings for the future and thus effectively use the equipment.

[lavish finch]

Right on

I'm going to teach a pop up class now on The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes. In case anyone would like to join me.

[full river]

I'd like to join. Although maybe mostly listening

[ornate siren]

Sorry, I can't join any voice rooms now. But would you like to discuss Sherlock Holmes with us later, in this channel? I've read all of the stories.

[thorny steeple]

i would like to see how many individuals have lost their sense of reading.. and need a new "player"

[thorny steeple]

The future?

Thoughts on suicide?

[lavish finch]

A permanent solution to a temporary problem.

What's temporary.

[ornate siren]

@lavish finch

[thorny steeple]

Unless in situations where death is believed to be euthanasia

[lavish finch]

how contrarian

[thorny steeple]

How so?

[lavish finch]

Please go ahead

[ornate siren]

I tried to draw your attention to my previous comment.

[lavish finch]

I saw your previous comment

I'm encouraging you to go ahead without waiting for me

[lavish finch]

I'm half joking.

Euthanasia or not, it's still permanent.

[thorny steeple]

Surely, but I was talking about the problem

[lavish finch]

Do you see how it's contrarian now?

[thorny steeple]

I do

[lavish finch]

A contrarian is someone who takes an opposing view.

[thorny steeple]

That I do know

[lavish finch]

I know. But I'm speaking for everyone's benefit.

Sure. Anyone who's ever played Zelda knows that some doors are one-way only.

https://tenor.com/view/noexit-elgenerico-lucha-shocked-gif-12240373

Sure, I have different roles.

Myself is what I would call the "self observing system"

The part that keeps an eye on my different roles.

Depends on how its done

If its self directed, yes.

Because I support freedom of association

For people to freely associate or not with others

And on a practical level, it's already how people relate.

But there are better and worse ways to do it

I support a process called functional subgrouping

In any group, at some point differences become apparent.

of course

something can always go wrong

Shall we look at one question at a time?

I am describing the idealized version of the process

So you weren’t asking a question you were making a rhetorical point.

Would you like to give any reasons for your assertion that there is no perfect system? Or would you just like to consider it self evident?

That's the assertion, restated

With a straw man argument thrown in

(I do not believe that harmony and kindness reign, do you?)

It means you are repeating yourself with slightly different language.

Your claim is that there is no perfect system.

Your reasons are that there will always be people who want to subdue others.

There will be people who do not belong to any factions.

Yes

Let's define a system

First, I'm talking about a specific kind of system. A living human system.

Characteristics of systems;

1. systems give and take
2. systems open and close their boundaries
3. systems stay stable and survive by integrating similarities
4. systems close boundaries to differences
5. systems change and transform by integrating differences
6. systems organize differences in two ways;
   a. integrating differences - changing from simple to more complex
   b. exclude differences - closes it's boundaries to differences that are too different
7. systems are energy organizing
8. systems are goal directed
9. systems are self correcting

This model has the property of isomorphy. Meaning that it applies at the macro level as well as the micro.

(at the level of the individual, the pair, the group, the city, up to the world. )

Sure.

systems close boundaries to differences

Differences introduce new information

[ornate siren]

It's for the system to decide which information it will absorb and which discard.

[lavish finch]

Systems must reorganize the new information and the existing system in order for a difference to be integrated.

Differences create noise. I define noise in the technical sense of amibguity, redundancy and contradiction.

The system as a whole

It's a system wide process.

[ornate siren]

We have open, closed and isolated systems.

[lavish finch]

Think of a cell

There is a border

[ornate siren]

An open system

[lavish finch]

and there are different parts inside

[ornate siren]

It exchanges matter and energy seamlessly, through its boundary, the membrane.

[lavish finch]

yes

and the membrane is semi-permeable

it opens and closes

[ornate siren]

Exactly

[lavish finch]

the system works together to reduce the noise, and integrate the information

It's a creative process

How reliable is a creative life process?

Some life survives some does not

[ornate siren]

It relies only on itself.

[lavish finch]

it's a big, wild world out there, with systems being born and dying all the time

[ornate siren]

By the way, you understood childhood?

[lavish finch]

What I'm describing is a road map for the life cycle of a group.

A group of one, a group of twelve or a group of 10 billion.

[ornate siren]

I see.

[lavish finch]

There are three main stages in the life cycle of a group.
authority
intimacy
play

I use the term system and group interchangably

How a group develops through these stages is what determines whether the group as a whole accomplishes its goals or not.

Whether the goal is learning English or surviving.

Or anything else

Authority means the ability to work

to author

to originate

from the latin auctorem meaning

master

leader

pioneer

When a group works this stage it takes on questions such as

Who is leading the show?

How do we make decisions?

[ornate siren]

Many groups don't need specific authority or ethos. They work together, with equality and harmony.

[lavish finch]

Just because it's implicit, doesn't mean it's not necessary

There's always an authority

by definition

[ornate siren]

That can be togetherness.

[lavish finch]

the question of authority is often difficult to face, and so it is often not addressed directly and openly

[ornate siren]

I can see why.

[lavish finch]

And groups may work within this stage indefinitely

especially if it is not faced

A group that can contain its differences and for example disagree with the authority is well equiped to progress through to the second stage

groups that cannot will spend their time and energy discharging their differences in various ways and either stall or self destruct

[ornate siren]

Sherlock had authority over Watson, in that case, right?

[lavish finch]

Often, yes. But not always

I'm thinking of the times Watson rescued Sherlock from opium dens.

But usually, Sherlock was clearly the pioneer

[ornate siren]

He was on duty, Sherlock

[ivory vale]

Watson has often taken on a one down relationship.

[lavish finch]

That's true too, and an example of discharging the difference.

[lavish finch]

Was Sherlock never in danger?

[ornate siren]

He was

[lavish finch]

Obviously Sherlock and Watson are different. But Watson made the group as a whole, and Sherlock recognized that.

[ornate siren]

But dismissed that many a time.

[ornate siren]

After all, John's his Boswell.

[lavish finch]

Boswell; a devoted admirer and recorder of another's words and deeds. type of: admirer, booster, champion, friend, protagonist, supporter. a person who backs a politician or a team.

[ivory vale]

Watson was contributing observations. Sherlock drew different conclusions from the observations than Watson.

[ornate siren]

Thanks for clarifying. Exactly what I'm meaning.

[lavish finch]

I see Watson as a foil. a person or thing that contrasts with and so emphasizes and enhances the qualities of another.

The story would be pretty ridiculous if it was about two brilliant detectives.

Nearly the same

As a reader they each provide something necessary

The ability to imagine ourselves as superhuman

and the ability to return to being human

[ivory vale]

So in the system of Sherlock and Watson what gives Sherlock the authority?

He has spent a lot of time on learning the craft of figuring problems out.

[brittle birch]

HELLO I NEED A PARTNER TO INTERACT WITH .IN OTHER WORDS I WANT TO IMPROVE MY SPEAKING SKILLS

PLEASE WHO IS WILLING TEXT ME

[lavish finch]

Try #1128741512121942177

[brittle birch]

HOW TEACHER

[lavish finch]

Thanks, Neli. My mistake.

Try #🫂｜beginner-chat

[brittle birch]

how can i find native speaker i'm advanced level student

[lavish finch]

How do you know you're advanced?

Please move to #1029075039741562880

[brittle birch]

because i have a real teacher of mine

and he had tested me and mentioned that i'm advanced

[lavish finch]

If you're advanced then you know you're interrupting our conversation.

[brittle birch]

teacher i just need a partner i'm a new in this channel so i can't figure out what to do

[lavish finch]

iSen, I turned off your ability to send messages here so that we can continue our conversation. But you and I can talk in #1029075039741562880 if you like.

[ivory vale]

iSen1oR is taking up authority by asking for what they want and also gives up authority by saying that they can't figure out what to do.

[lavish finch]

I really like the question, how do we know that Sherlock, not Watson, is the authority of the pair.

First of all, it's common sense

Second, the book is not called The Adventures of John Watson.

Third, Sherlock takes the lead in nearly every situation.

He leads the investigation.

[ivory vale]

He has a record of developing the better theories.

[lavish finch]

Yes! He solves the cases!

[ivory vale]

(like you have a record of leading the better classes than me)

It's tough to go from consuming to creating

[lavish finch]

It's a different role

It's difficult to surpass your teacher. It requires you to become a pioneer.

But the best teachers always produce students who surpass them.

[full river]

(following, partially here)

[ivory vale]

Hi

[lavish finch]

I'm listening to Vivaldi Violin Concerto in E minor, RV278 | Guiliano Carmignola

[full river]

Listened to it today, if it the one you shared earlier

[lavish finch]

yes

I also love Vivaldi Violin Concerto in E minor, RV273 | Fabio Biondi Europa Galante

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hggo-uuk5oE

[full river]

It reminds me of my father. Whenever I defeated him in chess he would say "I am a good teacher." 🙂

[ivory vale]

I am reminded of the Sherlock Watson dynamic sometimes, when I don't succeed in solving a problem and see you solve it.

It's a real block to give up on myself.

[lavish finch]

That's a one down role lock.

[ivory vale]

Yeah

I recognise it in the Sherlock Holmes books and in my life at multiple spaces.

[lavish finch]

You are taking a part of yourself and projecting it into me and fighting it in me. The Sherlock in you that you can't yet face.

Your own ability to act with charm, wit and brilliance.

You can take it back.

[ivory vale]

A part of mine that got excluded for its difference.

[lavish finch]

And that you are now excluding

[ivory vale]

Yeah, excluded by the other parts in me.

[lavish finch]

The authority issue ultimately leads inward

[ivory vale]

Hi Diana

[lavish finch]

Another one down role lock!

[ivory vale]

Exactly

[lavish finch]

Misery loves company

[ivory vale]

Lol

[valid raven]

I told you, I'm not serious enough for this channel mdr :D.

[valid raven]

Hey :)

[lavish finch]

Don't stop there. Tell us all about how unserious you think you are.

[ornate siren]

The quagmire persists, I see.

[ivory vale]

Meaning you don't enjoy reading the conversations here?

[valid raven]

I was just kidding.

[valid raven]

No, I enjoy but I don't see any reason to be serious especially.

[full river]

Same for me. I also enjoy being here without any urge to be very serious

[valid raven]

Yea, that's what I mean exactly. Btw where are you from if i may ask ?

[full river]

Azerbaijan

I also think we dont need to be very serious to be able to discuss serious topics

[valid raven]

Impressive

[lavish finch]

(What you all don't know is this channel is part of a multi-year practical joke to create more levity in my teaching.

[valid raven]

where is ) ?!?!?!

gasp

[lavish finch]

I left it off just to give you a chance to point it out.

[valid raven]

[rancid elbow]

Let me ask you an annoying unserious question, how much time did it take to be fluent? Currently, I'm in my upper intermediate after a year and a half.

[ivory vale]

You count on the rebellious subgroup to support you in your strive.

[valid raven]

Still so suspicious.

[lavish finch]

Never fails

[ivory vale]

Hi username

[lavish finch]

A person who thinks they are more rebellious than me is born everyday.

[rancid elbow]

Hi, there!

[valid raven]

Well, when I was kid, I had some nannies which is their native language was English, so it helped me a lot. So, I don't know how much time it took me to learn English or become a fluent speaker.

[rancid elbow]

Oh, I see. Thank you for your response!

[ornate siren]

For example, I am an alien. I know.

[valid raven]

No problem !

[lavish finch]

What's this role?

victim/bully?

outcast/insider?

superhuman/mundane?

(leaving)

[ivory vale]

Thank you

I like that song

And I like Nocturnal Alien's contributions here.

Bye

[ornate siren]

Thanks, Miss Earthling.

[ornate siren]

I'll go with outcast. But what's the relevance of the song or poem?

Some mathematical calculations most uncouthly detained me, or else I'd have been here for a long time.

[thorny steeple]

Hey guys

[thorny steeple]

[ivory vale]

I have posted the lyrics because you saying that you are an alien reminded me of that song.

(and the bot deleted my message)

I suspect that James saw this as he's admin here and reposted it.

I first encountered that song a long time ago when I was a student and pretty isolated from the world.

It was in a BBC series production called all the small things.

And I think it was about divorced parents and their son struggling to connect.

(leaving to socialize offline)

[civic reef]

@white shard you know whats even worse?

[white shard]

what?

[civic reef]

that for some reason these two activities do not seem like having any additional goal, like as if they were the goals in themselves

[white shard]

I mean, from the biological viewpoint that makes sense

pure instinct

[civic reef]

i think am being too dramatical tho lol

[white shard]

I honestly don't know how to reply to it

[civic reef]

You feel as if that message pierced through your soul and discovered your deepest, darkest desires?

[white shard]

here take a look at a horrible barbie frame I took a screenshot of

the left is my reaction

[civic reef]

the right is my reaction

[stray girder]

Hi

[cursive kelp]

margot looks like the nun in this ss

[tender sable]

hi guys

[whole fox]

Hi!

[white shard]

This is profound:

[devout shale]

Nice

That's kinda what hindu teach

[thorny steeple]

If there's no topic here, I'd like to invite y'all to think: what makes you like or dislike someone? (In depth). What makes you unique? Why? Do you think that likeness can fade with time? Why? Let's have a serious-chat! 🤍

I love those topics on personality, right! Haha!

@ornate siren @lavish finch @full river

+whoever who wants to join this convo, but obviously seriously. ✨

Hi everyone

Hi..

[thorny steeple]

Anybody wants to speaks?

Very good conversation in English.

[lethal sparrow]

this is fine, but alan watts sucks. literally gives standard boomer advice. (wash your ass! nobody loves you and everybody wants you dead! get a job! etc.)
i was very unimpressed.

[devout shale]

I think you didn't listen very much to his speeches tbh

[lethal sparrow]

that's where you're wrong. i downloaded his entire audio collection and dug deep. i was waiting for a long time to be impressed. many, many, many hours. i had to stop because it was either boring or stupid boomer advice. extremely unrecommended.

some people enjoy bad advice. that's not me.

you know, people write glowingly about "the secret" too. doesn't make it good.

[devout shale]

I think what he says are simple truths, no need to be impressed, a part from the concept of self-realization and the nature of reality, but to be impressed by that I think you need to experience it yourself

[lethal sparrow]

eh. i figured all that out and more on my own by far more qualified and interesting people. alan watts is overrated. and a boomer.

what we need is a challenge to the orthodox mindset that this bullshit economy is a good. alan watts is useful if you want to get plugged back into the system. along with jordan peterson and andrew tate.
hopefully you don't think these assholes say "simple truths" too.

the western mind has a terrible time with eastern philosophy because of its hyper consumerism and individualism. everything is just another fashion style or product to be digested. there is no honor or shame in a place like the united states of america. horrible place, horrible people.

[devout shale]

Why do you put watts next to Andrew tate, I don't know him very much, but I know enough to think you can't compare it to alan watts, also why you say he's useful if you want to be plugged in

[devout shale]

I can agree with that

[lethal sparrow]

just another overrated dude

[devout shale]

They are very different tho, I would say opposites

[cursive estuary]

Interesting critique of Alan Watts

I've read some of his books and it's true that his philosophy style is kinda microwavy in a sense

I guess that's why he's so popular anyways

but it's also truth that Watt's view of the world is greatly influenced by eastern philosophy, iirc he had a book on Taoism

[thorny steeple]

Taoism 🥰

[lethal sparrow]

Trying to define yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth.
-- Alan Watts
DUDE SO PROFOUND I'M GONNA NUT

Everyone has a religion, whether admitted or not, because it is impossible to be human without having some basic assumptions (or intuitions) about existence and the good life.
Literal boomer shit. Christians say this shit about atheists and neo-nazi conservative MAGA qanon boomers say this shit about BLM LGBTQ+ "wokies"
Extremely stupid. Painfully stupid. But it sells. That's all that matters in capitalism.

He took the Bay Area by storm, starting in the early 50s. We had a very liberal NPR radio station and television station, on both of which he became a star.
Yeah, liberalism is a special kind of problem.

[buoyant urchin]

hello

[lavish finch]

I don't see the connection between Watts and MAGA and whatever you imagine to be the defining feature of boomers.

It sounds more like you have an axe to grind.

Perhaps against mysticism?

neo-nazis say that blm have assumptions about the good life? ha. I don't think so.

You want to say that neo-nazis and all christians are liberals? again, I don't think so.

Is it really so stupid to say that people have assumptions about the good life?

[reef dagger]

how many people here have english as their native language?

[lavish finch]

No, sir.

[reef dagger]

Am I suppose to speak with pure elegance here?

[lavish finch]

No, sir. But I'd like you to join our conversation.

And welcome to the server.

[reef dagger]

Thank you

[ivory vale]

Hi

I understand what Smiles said as:
Christians say to Atheists "oh, you only think that you are without religion. Actually every human has and so do you."

And then MAGA discount what woke people say in a similar way.

Would make sense to me.

SAVI box 3 competing

[lavish finch]

What utterances are competing

[ivory vale]

People with religion who discount the world view of atheists?

[lavish finch]

Who said that?

[ivory vale]

Alan Watts said "Everyone has a religion..."

[lavish finch]

How is that competing?

[true bluff]

thanks for sharing this, it's good to know

[lavish finch]

You're welcome, Tsend.

[ivory vale]

Hi Tsend

Is having a religion not competing with being atheist?

[toxic plover]

Hello gentlemens

[true bluff]

hi Neli 🙂

[ivory vale]

Hi Moxy

[lavish finch]

(And ladies)

[toxic plover]

Morning/evening neli and james

[ornate siren]

I'm here.

[ivory vale]

Hi Nocturnal

[lavish finch]

Hello Nocturnal, Moxy and all

[toxic plover]

We can't forget our ladies as well.

Just passing by to say my greetings

[ornate siren]

Let's strike up a conversation on Western Classical Music, shall we? I heard some talk of it yesterday.

[lavish finch]

Can you find the segue between Alan Watts, SAVI and music in order to do so?

[ivory vale]

I wonder how SAVI can be applied to music.

[true bluff]

I do not know classic music, but i think it is good idea Nocturnal, are you musician ?

[ornate siren]

According to Watts, we must integrate the emotional and the material. And music is an excellent way of describing the essence of one's feelings.

[ornate siren]

I play the guitar.

[true bluff]

share me some links, one that you like

[true bluff]

cool beans!

[lavish finch]

I'm not against anyone talking about music or other art. Personally I like to let the art speak for itself.

[true bluff]

wow impressive

what is your major James ?

[ornate siren]

Here, we seem to act as the composers' post-mortem ambassadors or representatives when talking about such music.

[lavish finch]

Language is my speciality.

[lavish finch]

How?

[ornate siren]

Bach's Badinerie conforms very well to modern musical taste, I suppose. What do you think?

[ornate siren]

Since you along with us, let the art speak for itself. Like the great composers before us.

[lavish finch]

I don't have an opinion.

[ornate siren]

You said you liked Vivaldi?

[lavish finch]

You seem to be more interested in me than music or Vivaldi.

Is that true?

[ornate siren]

I am more interested in someone based on the context or situation. This channel is wanting in people when I am here.

Touché.

[lavish finch]

You are here now, and I'm here, and I think a few others.

[ornate siren]

But I see only me and you actively taking part.

[lavish finch]

Neli and Tsend.

[ornate siren]

I invoke their presence.

[ivory vale]

I dislike the question about James style of conversation.

Hi Nargiz

[lavish finch]

Which question is that?

[ivory vale]

"You said you liked Vivaldi"

It's a 1 on 1 conversation

[true bluff]

sorry i do not have much info about music or art, but i love and respect.

[lavish finch]

Neli, how might you join?

[ivory vale]

I've been mulling over whether it makes sense to apply SAVI to music

[lavish finch]

I want to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with being interested in me or any other person.

For me the question is, how to open the conversation beyond the 1 on 1 dynamic.

There's something I'd like to say about "pushing" others to talk.

[ivory vale]

I'm in a similar place as Tsend. I don't know much about music and art. In particular classical music.

[ornate siren]

So, what is thought of Vivaldi? His "Seasons" is his most famous piece, undoubtedly. And my favourite also.

[lavish finch]

About encouraging one person to share their personal opinions and so on.

That creates a very specific dynamic in a conversation.

Which is why I suggest everyone investigates where their own energy for speaking is.

Otherwise you will quite predictably stall the group.

[full river]

Hi 👋

[full river]

Mine as well

[lavish finch]

Now

Nargiz is waving

Both literally and figuratively

"me too" is what I call a wave.

Not a join.

Dialogues that launch people out to sea and wave them on their way do not end in resonance.

By launching people out to sea I mean pushing them to talk.

[ivory vale]

Is it a wave or is it agreement?

[lavish finch]

Same

A wave is a signal of agreement that does not build.

[static pivot]

Hello there fine connoisseurs

[ivory vale]

Hi

[full river]

Let me try to build on what was said

[lavish finch]

Welcome Vivek

[full river]

Hi 👋

[toxic plover]

Howdy M'lady

[static pivot]

Any of you have read beowulf?

[toxic plover]

https://tenor.com/view/tipping-hat-ennis-elsa-dutton-isabel-may-1883-gif-24361678

[prisma wolf]

I’m a native speaker!

[full river]

Seasons is also my favourite by Vivaldi. I find his works elegant. The other one I like is Mozart, listeng to him makes me feel triumphant. Or better to say I like listening to him when I feel triumphant.

[lavish finch]

Welcome Krissy.

[prisma wolf]

thanks! I’ve never used Discord before

[toxic plover]

Congratulations

[true bluff]

hi hi all

[toxic plover]

Welcome to discord

[prisma wolf]

thanks

[full river]

Is it more that a wave now?

[full river]

Welcome. I believe you'll like it 🙃

[prisma wolf]

Where are y’all from?

[toxic plover]

@prisma wolf what brought you to this server ? Are you here to learn or teach or just chat

[lavish finch]

If Vivek ends his words here, I'd call it pushing our boat out to sea.

[true bluff]

I am prety a new user for discord too

[prisma wolf]

I’m just here for fun and to help anyone that needs it

[true bluff]

I am from Mongolia, and like ride a horse.

[toxic plover]

There's a channel called #📚｜english-questions you could help people in need of help

[full river]

(what is beowolf Vivek? I only now grey wolf 🙃 )

[lavish finch]

turning and turning in the widening gyre
the falcon cannot hear the falconer

things fall apart, the center cannot hold
mere anarchy is loosed upon the world

[prisma wolf]

thanks! Good to know

[lavish finch]

Rowing, as opposed to waving and pushing, is what keeps communications balanced.

Rowing requires putting one's oar in at the same pace, rhythm and depth as the others in the boat.

[true bluff]

sounds like Newton's 1st law

[static pivot]

Its a poem, very famous one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf?wprov=sfla1

[full river]

It is the law of chaos

[static pivot]

Theres a movie based on this poem

[full river]

(following)

[true bluff]

plz translate or explain this poem to us. what is concept of this poem ?

[lavish finch]

Written somewhere between 700 to 1000 AD, it's written in old english.

[static pivot]

Only if i knew OE

But there's several translation on internet

Movie

Video summaries

[lavish finch]

It is an epic poem. In the tradition of the Illiad.

[true bluff]

i have no idea oe, becuase i have not good yet ce yet 🙂 sorry

[lavish finch]

Speakers of modern English cannot read old english. It's like a different language.

[true bluff]

wow, but do you know core message of this poem? there should be reason to write and reach out my people ?

[lavish finch]

Here is the old english side by side with modern english.

"Hwæt. We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning."

Old English

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH-_GwoO4xI

"The story is set in pagan Scandinavia in the 6th century. Beowulf, a hero of the Geats, comes to the aid of Hrothgar, the king of the Danes, whose mead hall in Heorot has been under attack by the monster Grendel. After Beowulf slays him, Grendel's mother attacks the hall and is then defeated. Victorious, Beowulf goes home to Geatland and becomes king of the Geats. Fifty years later, Beowulf defeats a dragon, but is mortally wounded in the battle. After his death, his attendants cremate his body and erect a barrow on a headland in his memory."

This story influenced modern fantasy writers, like Tolkien.

[ivory vale]

Thanks for sharing

[lavish finch]

Back to launching, waving and rowing...

"launchers" - people who push others to talk - intend to be supportive.

They tend to believe they are joining the person who is talking.

A closer look reveals that there is only token joining.

But rowing together results in increasingly authentic communication.

Meaning, connection and pleasure increases in between people and within.

[ivory vale]

When you said that Beowulf is in the tradition of the Iliad, I remembered my recent discovery that Plato was trying to fix the bad influence of Homer's heroes.

[lavish finch]

It's a question of education.

He was attempting to answer the question about what a good education looks like.

[ivory vale]

It reminds me of the attempts to censor misinformation.

[lavish finch]

Yes

Plato's proposal is deeply authoritarian.

Remember, Plato hated democracy.

For Plato, democracy is what killed his teacher Socrates.

[ivory vale]

And due to the lost war.

[lavish finch]

The ignorance of the city and the average person

Plato revered Sparta, and was deeply critical of Athens.

[static pivot]

Anyone interested in watching movie? Beowulf

I can stream

And then we can discuss

[lavish finch]

Which adaption do you recommend, Vivek?

[ivory vale]

No thanks. Almost time for me to get up.

[ornate siren]

I have watched it.

[lavish finch]

Not now, but if you suggest an adaption I would watch it for a later discussion.

[full river]

I'm interested in watching. Maybe later today

[ivory vale]

Quite different from Socrates.
Socrates was trying to support average people integrate ideas.

[ornate siren]

I wouldn't completely agree.

[ivory vale]

What is your view?

[ornate siren]

Bad influence?

[ivory vale]

Imperfect heroes.

People who do bad deeds and are heroes.

[ornate siren]

The Iliadic heroes may be compared with gods, but they had earthly minds.

[ivory vale]

It's certainly human to think of or do bad deeds.

[ornate siren]

They were forced to take part in the war for a woman, like in the Mahabharata.

[lavish finch]

I don't see the connection

How does that have any bearing on Plato's proposal to limit exposure to such stories in the name of providing a good education?

[ornate siren]

I was talking independently of Plato.

[lavish finch]

Independent of what?

[ornate siren]

Of Plato's proposal to limit exposure to such stories in the name of providing a good education.

[ivory vale]

Yet you have started by referring to what I said about Plato.

[ornate siren]

I was referring to the bad influence of Iliadic heroes.

[lavish finch]

Then it sounds like you don't disagree after all

[ivory vale]

It sounds like you disagree with Plato

[ornate siren]

Times change.

[lavish finch]

I don't know why you say that, Neli.

[ornate siren]

And the connection of Beowulf with the Iliad.

[full river]

I think it was more about finding excuses for the heroes and their deeds that are considered bad.

[ornate siren]

Could you please explain this?

[full river]

Like they had to fight

[ivory vale]

I wanted to understand what Nocturnal disagreed with.

[lavish finch]

I have no idea myself.

But the last thing he said was an agreement with what you said.

[ivory vale]

Yes

I assumed that his disagreement would be with Plato instead of with me.

[ornate siren]

I think this problem is annoying me. Then I'll be able to elaborate.

[ivory vale]

I don't have in depth knowledge of either legend.
They are just both tales of heroes and so I remembered my new discovery.

[ornate siren]

Thanks for telling me. I know only the outline of Beowulf, but I've read the Iliad thoroughly.

[ivory vale]

I can see a clear short term benefit of excluding dangerous ideas from discussion and education.

[ornate siren]

How so?

[ivory vale]

A system might not survive if bad ideas gain too much traction.

[lavish finch]

I think your idea is bad. Would you like to eliminate it or shall I do that for you?

[ivory vale]

Lol

[ornate siren]

Bad actions, you mean. The system must have a mechanism to suppress the prospect of bad actions taking place.

[ivory vale]

Yeah. Preventing actions would be sufficient.

It's a problem that people struggle to distinguish between thoughts and actions.

Seems like Plato has given up on making this distinction.

[lavish finch]

No idea how you draw that conclusion

because he wants to limit thought rather than actions?

then I can see the connection

[ivory vale]

Well, I really don't know much.
I just thought because he wants to censor ideas.

[lavish finch]

ok, I see it now

yes

[ivory vale]

If an idea is not talked about it turns implicit and unconscious.

[ivory vale]

Which in the long run can also lead to actions that kill a system.

[ornate siren]

If the thoughts abruptly convert to actions.

[lavish finch]

What?

What's leading to these system killing actions?

Bad thoughts?

[ornate siren]

Deeds

[lavish finch]

Bad actions lead to more bad actions?

[ivory vale]

Talking about bad deeds can lead to people getting the idea to try doing those deeds.

[lavish finch]

No

[ornate siren]

No, the end of the system.

[ivory vale]

Not talking about bad deeds also.

[ornate siren]

Demonstrating their temporary effectiveness.

Convincing neighbours of the seeming benefits.

Destroying their foresight or common sense.

[ivory vale]

Yes. At a certain point, if enough people say this is a useful action I am tempted to take that action.

And if it kills the system I would still take the action, because I lack information on the danger to the system.

[ornate siren]

We're in agreement.

[ivory vale]

Like here in Germany people talking about going on holidays by airplane.
Bad for the ecosystem.
If it was less normal for people to talk about this, less people might do it.

[ornate siren]

Just that. And there's Goebbels.

[lavish finch]

It seems very strange to me to draw such conclusions.

[ivory vale]

You see no connection between talking about an idea and acting according to that idea?

[lavish finch]

Describing people as though they are mindless and helpless cogs with no authority to decide for themselves, helplessly influenced by their environments.

Conceiving of thought as a fatalistic chain

[ornate siren]

We're talking about a general system.

[lavish finch]

If people were really like that, they would be easy to control. But people are not like that.

[ivory vale]

It seems that many people are easily united by demagogues.

[ornate siren]

Humans are exceptions.

[ivory vale]

What about the people who decided to kill Socrates?

Were they all thinking independently?

Relying on their own agency?

[lavish finch]

Those sound like righteous rhetorical questions. Would you agree? Or are you looking for answers?

[ivory vale]

Yes, I was thinking so.

SAVI box 1

[full river]

I could also feel the tension

[lavish finch]

Do you know what the impact on you is of speaking from box 1?

[full river]

interesting what we can feel through text

[ivory vale]

I block discovering something new.

[flat steeple]

Hey guys, is anyone from Germany! ?

[ivory vale]

I also perceived this as a discount of what I have been saying.

[flat steeple]

Buddy, are you from Germany?

[ivory vale]

Would you agree to that assessment?

[lavish finch]

No

You started to ask me what I think.

[lavish finch]

I diverged here

[ivory vale]

Yes. I wanted to understand your perception. Then didn't like it.

[lavish finch]

So you were discounting what I was saying

as an answer to your questions

[full river]

Discount started much earlier

[ivory vale]

Where?

[full river]

here

[ivory vale]

I thought that was a work joke.

[ornate siren]

He was just joking.

[lavish finch]

Same

Three of us were in tune, Nargiz was out of tune

Not picking up the humor

[full river]

I would think the same, if disagreement didnt carry on afterwards

[lavish finch]

probably as a result of multi tasking

[full river]

true. I'm multitasking. Or trying to do so 🙃

[ivory vale]

It's a difficult topic for me to engage with James.

I'm glad we are doing it.

I like discovering new perspectives.

[full river]

It is useful. Reaction to disagreements can get in the way though. It is good to be able to look through

[ivory vale]

I'm actually curious what leads to people who are not cogs and who have authority to unite behind ideas. Whether I like those ideas or not.

[lavish finch]

And yet here where you had a chance to encounter it, you shut it down.

[ivory vale]

I wasn't able to contain my disagreement.

I guess that's part of the magic.

[lavish finch]

The magic is giving me a headache.

[ivory vale]

Shutting out different ideas reinforces me sticking with my ideas and functioning like a cog.

[lavish finch]

Well, I will leave you to your echo chamber.

Enjoy

(leaving)

[ivory vale]

Bye James

[full river]

a little sad ending..bye everyone

[ivory vale]

Bye Nargiz

I'll leave too. Time to get up.

[thorny steeple]

@cursive kelp don't waste your time. You seem to be very smart for this! 🥰

[cursive kelp]

can i dm you?

[thorny steeple]

Something happened?

[cursive kelp]

no just wanna talk about "wasting time"

[thorny steeple]

Sure!

[thorny steeple]

hi

Fuys this is very serious chennel

No jawks here or bunned

[noble ivy]

@thorny steeple
So basically when I broke up with a girl I felt the same for about 2 weeks straight and now I’m just having dreams with her (not the only good ones tho)

Who decided to break up?

[thorny steeple]

her

[noble ivy]

Why

Any normal reasons?

[river meadow]

Ohh my heartbreak?

[thorny steeple]

I don't want to revel it

too personal

[noble ivy]

Alright let’s say was it someone’s fault? Is anyone guilty after all

Trynna understand

[thorny steeple]

there is no point playing the blame game rn. what is over, is over. I just want to move on. but just can't master the strength

[noble ivy]

In that case just stop killing yourself, thinking about her as it was something you couldn’t be able reach again. Find something to do, get extra shifts at work. Hit a gym, meet with yo friends

U gotta get distracted

[ornate siren]

Why did you people move from general chat to here?

[noble ivy]

Cuz it’s messy there and it’s kinda serious chatting

[thorny steeple]

Discussing breakup with homiez real shit

Slap harder than dad belt

[noble ivy]

Lmao

[ornate siren]

I bet that's serious.

[noble ivy]

@thorny steeple u not typing anymore?

[thorny steeple]

I know. she is gone from my life, and i have to adjust with it. but i can't.
There are things about me, like interests and skills, that I didn't have before I met her. I enjoyed having those things, but now I can't think about them without thinking about her. She's the reason I developed those parts of myself, and now that she's gone, it feels like I can't have them in my life anymore. In simpler terms, it's like I have to let go of some parts of who I am, my personality, in order to move on from thoughts of her.

i have to kill some parts of myself

[ornate siren]

You people always stay romantic and shit.

[thorny steeple]

💀

[noble ivy]

You don’t have to

[thorny steeple]

Bro

@thorny steeple Go to Spotify listen to N95 by Kendrick Lamar

Ultimate motivation

[ornate siren]

To me, the benefits of celibacy outweigh that of marriage by all means.

[noble ivy]

Dude before I met my ex I was just a nerd doing boring stuff, she taught me that life is more interesting than I thought it was. We shared a lot of things together that I brought with me after breaking up and at the beginning I was like NAH I CANT DO THIS WITHOUT HER, simple example - watching certain movies we used to watch, it doesn’t feel like it without her you feel me

[ornate siren]

And you also.

[noble ivy]

You need to understand that your relationships made you stronger and more confident

And you trynna kill it that’s dumb

[noble ivy]

Yeah

[ornate siren]

I may have to teach you some bitter lessons.

[noble ivy]

Teach wym 💀

Ur an expert here?

[ornate siren]

Not saying so, but I may know something about defending my position.

[thorny steeple]

that is true. i have grown up a lot since we got to know each other.

[thorny steeple]

ok

[thorny steeple]

what is ur opinion on eggs

[thorny steeple]

tasty

[noble ivy]

Just think about her for a second. Is she killing herself the way you are right now? Of course not

[thorny steeple]

exactly

[noble ivy]

Boiled?

[ornate siren]

Are you?

[thorny steeple]

yeah

boiled fried whatever

[noble ivy]

Am I what

[ornate siren]

Killing yourself?

[noble ivy]

I was killing myself until the moment she texted me with “I easily get over anyone”

[ornate siren]

Excellent.

[noble ivy]

Bro chicks come and go, you gotta get used to it

[thorny steeple]

bitches they come and go

[noble ivy]

Well yeah I like em

[noble ivy]

Wasn’t it chicks

[thorny steeple]

I heard this before from someone. You know what, you don't need to kill parts of yourself, you need to accept it. We are all made of people who touched our hearts in our lives and what you feel don't depends on the other person. It's yours, you created it, you just need to let go of the need to have the other person.

no from eminem song

[noble ivy]

Yeah my Pfizer

[thorny steeple]

(it's not of my business but I wanted to tell something)

[noble ivy]

Pfp *

@thorny steeple about changes she made in your life - watch la la land , it’s literally what I meant by saying stuff above

Also listen to central cee- let go (helped me a lot)

[thorny steeple]

What you're telling is that you turned yourself into her. If she don't care and use people like "come and go" now it's you who does it?

[thorny steeple]

thank you for telling me this.
if you don't mind, i would to add a bit more details. there are some dishes that she liked to eat. I learned those so that i could them for her. and I did. I don't think i can cook them ever. It was for her, you know

[white shard]

What's all the commotion about?

[ornate siren]

Stop being a crybaby.

[noble ivy]

It’s not like that. People who going though this shit rn have to understand that the girls they dated is not the only girl on the planet

[thorny steeple]

I think I will. I have done nothing since we talked last. I think I will watch it. thanks

[ornate siren]

Now this is one who knows how to put up with serious conversations.

[thorny steeple]

I know how you're feeling and it's beautiful, you need to see who is creating this. Like she was only a catalyst, you is the one who create it yourself, by your capacity of loving someone at this point!

[white shard]

I am not sure about it.

[thorny steeple]

Don't make your heart harsh because of people!

[noble ivy]

My friend cooks perfectly, she learnt it for her boyfriend and when they broke up she ain’t cooking nothing

[thorny steeple]

hmm. i see what are u saying. never thought it like this

thanks @thorny steeple

Ok, before I continue, can you guys give me an overall of the story? What happened?

[white shard]

Which is a waste, because cooking is a valuable skill. You can take the skills you have learned and make yourself more appealing to future partners

[noble ivy]

Wat

[thorny steeple]

Of course! 🥰

You don't need to hate anyone to move forward. Life is about ressignificance somehow.

[noble ivy]

Yep it’s your life homie, enjoy it, do things you couldn’t do while you were in this relationship

[thorny steeple]

thank you guys for all the help. I will go now. will give you guys an update in a week or two.

[noble ivy]

Sure, take care

[thorny steeple]

tagging you guys so it would be easy to find later @thorny steeple @thorny steeple @noble ivy @thorny steeple

good bye

[thorny steeple]

One last thing I can say it: it'll be better with time, less difficult and you'll see this was the best thing that happened with you with time! Heal first before date anyone else, it's going to be good for you! Good luck! 🥰❤️

[thorny steeple]

Everyone is crybaby when we talk about love. 😹

I am the wrost of them.

[ornate siren]

I survived the maudlin blokes. Barging into this channel and telling us to shrive 'em out of penitence, from nowhere.

[thorny steeple]

nuh uh

[bold saddle]

hi it's me

[full river]

What is going on?

[royal storm]

hi at all what are you speaking about?

[devout shale]

I don't understand 85% of messages you send tbh

[royal storm]

someone want to chat with me?

[thorny steeple]

I'll be happy to talk

[ornate siren]

His messages are self-contradictory and self-justifying.