#Tank Balance Problem

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

covert urchin
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There's 3 problems right now with tanks (2 of them have to do with the T4 tank.)

  • Base armor of the T4 tank is so high, it basically clears PVE without much healing. So it's extremely economically viable to use just T4 tanks for pve instead of something like fencers of different classes, because they'll simply tank more damage. For example, when the octoboss gets hit by the T4 damage reduction, he does only 2 pts of damage post armor to the T4 tanks, so it can effectively solo the first boss.
  • The AOE attack for the T4 tank is way too strong. Splash damage only does 20%, this does 100% of splash. This means that a frontline of tanks will be unbeatable against any melee damage because it effectively has a 3x (or more) multiplier by doing splash damage.
  • The tank buff mutation from egghead is a problem, because it means any match-up of eggheads + something v.s. eggheads + tank will lose to the tanks because all stats ramp up twice as fast.

continued...

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My suggestions:

  • Lower the % of the damage debuff + AOE so the T4 isn't guaranteed to cut all enemie's attack by 50%. It's really difficult to have a balanced PVE economy when one unit takes only half of the damage other compositions would.
  • Make the special ability of the T4 cost mana. That would prevent T4 frontlines from being able to taunt unless there's high mana regen, which right now isn't really a concern.
  • Make the AOE attack magic damage instead of physical damage. It's not fair the the T4 shooter does magic damage as its special but tanks gets to stack up to it's physical. Magic damage would be easier to mitigate with you thought/magic mirror if it's a lower %. It would also put more pressure to increase magic resist in that build because of mirror match-ups (right now, top T4 tanks/eggheads combo don't need magic resist, so at least they would need it for a mirror match.)
  • That tank buff mutation from eggheads that gives bonus buff is really problematic because it means any match-up like fencer eggheads (which should be able to keep up in damage) have no chance because the tanks armor will be higher and they'll also deal more damage.

I don't know if all these changes need to happen at once but they definitely need a reasonable nerf. T4 tanks + eggheads have won a first season, then the ability got a buff (increased odds to 70% I think?), and then it won again last season, and is poised to win again this season. It's really the main reason I'm not playing too much lately because I'm fairly confident it's almost unbeatable (except by a thower+fighter magic link combo that exploits low magic resist because of the current magic mirror situation, but even that build is not sure to win.)

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@jolly sapphire sorry for the ping. I know it's late in the season but I hope this has been considered for the next patch. It's been an issue for a while so would be nice if it was adjusted for the coming season but I understand it might be too late too.

modern pike
pastel oyster
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i think the main problem is 200% impulse. i think tank pve is fine. without healing buttons you will have low health units. you really depend on healing buttons. i typically lose a couple tanks if i don't take regen even on a sprint run. really similar to fencer pve imo. if you were to do a run in mutagen you would need some form of healing. in sprint it is shorter, but you still need heal buttons. it's not like the tanks take no damage. and perhaps the chance to trigger the ability is too high. i think turning the ability into magic damage would spell the end of the t4 tank. i do not want a nerf like tricksters had where the unit becomes bad though. the t4 tank, t5 egghead build is like kryptonite to physical builds though and perhaps that is unbalanced. i think significantly lowering the chance for the ability to trigger and nerfing the ability could be an option. i think the base armor is fine though.

modern pike
pastel oyster
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i think it's better to have more ways to do pve, not less. tricksters got nerfed hard because of complaints, and that ruined trickster pve(at least for me). i do not want to see something similar happen to the t4 tank. i already cut it close with the tank. like i said, it's not like they don't take damage. in fact, they take a lot of damage.

modern pike
pastel oyster
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i just don't see why the base armor should be changed. t4 tank is only strong because of the impulses. i tried a build with 24 panzer poos and got stomped by a summon build. the eggheads play a big part in this ability being unbalanced.

modern pike
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because its unfairly good in PvE

pastel oyster
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what about t5 tanks though?

modern pike
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it cost 34

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and you need upgrade shop for this

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its better to use t5 fencer then

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or fighter

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even trickster not worse

pastel oyster
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i don't think it is unfairly good in pve because of the armor. i think the armor is just fine. just nerf the ability. do we want to have less options for pve? i don't understand how when something is good for pve people are saying to nerf it. we are going to be stuck with fewer options. i think cultists are even worse for getting the best economy

covert urchin
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I agree I think the unit stats are fine. The 200% buff is probably the main problem in pve but the t4 ability is a problem for PVE and PVP. Anything that cuts damage of everything around it by 50% is going to be broken in pve, like zombies normally do 90 damage but just do 45 to them, that's like a free valor but works even against low enemy counts. And same with PVP, fencer crits in the best case scenario doesn't double your damage so you'll never keep up, and they don't get AOE damage unless you get splash for just 20%

pastel oyster
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i was just thinking that if polatanks get a nerf, how will we beat summon builds? i'm not saying they don't need a nerf, but that's one of the few ways to beat a strong summon build. the high armor is necessary against towers and tentacles that do crazy high damage. maybe t4 fencer builds can counter them i guess, but summons are going to make a big comeback if this gets nerfed

stiff pilot
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agree

pastel oyster
# stiff pilot

what events did you have because typically i do not have eco that good on an average run. and cultists get much better eco every time

stiff pilot
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nothing special in events

pastel oyster
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i think if we are going to say that t4 tank is too good for pve then we need to bring up cultists as well

stiff pilot
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now I'm no sure if with valor and slow attack I should continue with just one unit 😛

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in sprint mode they are the two classes with better eco for sure

pastel oyster
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if you had deathknight you would have died on 3 with one unit though. it can't solo pve

stiff pilot
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floor 3 was zombies

pastel oyster
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meanwhile cultists can fight deathknight on 0 bars of hunger and win

stiff pilot
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no DK

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zombies and brain

pastel oyster
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t4 tank can't solo spiky floor though

stiff pilot
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he can 😉

pastel oyster
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i don't believe it without a video

stiff pilot
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I had full health button

pastel oyster
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maybe because you had valor but that's definitely not an every run type of thing

stiff pilot
pastel oyster
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it's just that your humans are obscured by the mutation screen

stiff pilot
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give me a sec

pastel oyster
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you must have got lucky with the altar rooms and had mostly specters spawn to give you valor bonus. if you had 3 spikys in multiple rooms it wouldnt be possible i think. i typically have to upgrade attack to get through floor 4 without losing tanks and that is with multiple tanks and shooters as well.

stiff pilot
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I killed spiky dogs too

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but the hardest combat was the boss because of the miniDK

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the one that shoots you every 5 secs

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but with the area they die before me 😛

pastel oyster
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my upgrades on a typical tank run look different and i do not solo those floors. 99% of the time if you try to solo that floor you will die. three spiky dogs in one room and no steady footing is death, unless you have a really high valor bonus from specters. i haven't done greed with the new thorny rooms so i do not know what they look like, but i assume it is one spiky dog and the rest specters if you survived

stiff pilot
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It is my first run testing it but with slow attack on hit I think it is easier

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Without the second point in magic resist I would have died. About the spiky dogs, I think I killed 4 in total (3 in one, 1 in another and the 3rd with the button to clean a room).

pastel oyster
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basically i think this is an extreme case of tank pve and not a good example of a typical run, you aren't going to get valor on every run floor 3, and i think greed helped you survive here because of valor. i still have trouble believing this because you did not upgrade attack. if you do not upgrade attack, you will take more damage. the only thing i can think of is the combo of valor and greed is the reason you were able to survive. so maybe this highlights how greed doesn't really have much of a downside when you have valor. i think a similar thing could be achieved with a t4 or t5 fencer, and nobody is talking about nerfing those.

stiff pilot
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end build

covert urchin
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it's not the same with fencers, they don't cut enemy damage by half. Zombies are a free win for T4 tanks even without valor because cutting damage by half is equivalent to valor except it works even mutation room against the silencer + 1 zombie so it's a lot safer, and will also cut spiky dog damage in half. And you definitely can't solo octoboss with just 1 fencer. Even cultists require either 6 cultists to beat it or 3 + a specific mutation like tentacle fear or drone (even drone is not 100% sure to save you depending where it spawns)

stiff pilot
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no 200% DespOLantern

pastel oyster
covert urchin
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if you get steady footing maybe but no, not without increasing health to a crazy amount or something

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the tank can do it with level 2 health and barely shows damage after

pastel oyster
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you need two points into attack speed to do that at least. i've never tried to solo it with level 2 health but i think you're definitely going to need a heal button

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for the next floor that is

stiff pilot
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I don't want any bad feelings. But in my opinion the t4 tank is above the rest.

modern pike
pastel oyster
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it's just because of the eggheads. tank by itself isn't even that strong in pvp. pve, who cares, let us have more ways to do pve. i think summons are going to be too strong if the t4 tanks get nerfed. i think eco from t4 tank is comparable to other classes too. your final eco wasn't even that great compared to your cultist runs.

pastel oyster
# stiff pilot end build

and how did it place without 200% impulse? because i think we will find that the problem is not just the t4 tank. the problem is the t5 egggheads and 200% impulse

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i really think it is an egghead problem just as much as a tank problem, if not more so an egghead problem. why go after the tank when a build with no buffs gets stomped by most builds. it's just the egghead buffs that make it broken.

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and i don't have any hard feelings about the issue. it's just that i think you are going after the wrong thing here. i saw what happened to tricksters. i don't want that for tanks. 200% impulse and t5 eggheads are the problem. also, magic mirror is a big reason this is an issue. it is suppressing the magic builds. the build is beatable.

pastel oyster
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a version of my tank build is currently rank 4 on mobile. it's just because of the jumps that this build is top 1 on pc. throwers are top 1 on mobile and have been for several seasons.