Shenhe Thread

[chilly hinge]

Constellation Math for Shenhe with C0 Ayaka/Kokomi/Kazuha for those asking https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IVZZlRpTVGbmlsWyvY-NHXf4WLVh_8u7REA6fe1sXhI/edit?usp=sharing

[ripe cedar]

I followed you on reddit btw

[chilly hinge]

plz don't look at my reddit comment history, thats all I'm gonna say

and yeah tons of genshin people followed me when I leaked Shenhe coming in 2.4 back in 2.2 so I had to make a new account for reasons

[ripe cedar]

sure things

[frank furnace]

no i mean casting 2 shenhe E (at c0) for ayaka Q

[chilly hinge]

Yeah you can do that, just use the second shenhe E after you use Ayaka Q then you're good to go

[frank furnace]

how's the rotation on that one? does it sync well

oh. i see it's what you used in your sheets

[chilly hinge]

yeah you can see the sheet, and yeah it syncs perfectly over 20 seconds

[frank furnace]

how does ayaka-shenhe-VV-koko comp compare to ayaka-mona-venti/kaz-diona?

how do you even run ayaka-shenhe-kaz-koko? isnt that a bit hard to fund in terms of ults?

[chilly hinge]

with amenoma kageuchi R1 and fav lance its not that bad (140/166 ER on Ayaka/Shenhe respectively). As for damage comparison's with other team, I can't help you with that, I don't run external comparisons with my sheets. I'd assume its probably similar though, likely to be slightly higher in single target and slightly worse in AoE based on other comps I've ran

[frank furnace]

140 ER on top of amenoma? isnt she sacrificing a lot on damage with that set-up

[chilly hinge]

140 ER is pretty standard actually

Using Favonius Diona and funneling the particles to Ayaka is 138ER

Sac bow can get a bit lower

but I don't think its a big deal

[tough seal]

c6 only 10% combined dps over c2? i thought it would be way higher tbh

[chilly hinge]

It’s just because in this rotation Ayaka can only fit in 2N2Cs after her ult is over when you consider having to rotate in supports

And not ulting with Ayaka just isn’t gonna work, you lose way too much damage that just charge attack spam with C6 won’t work that well

[tough seal]

ayaka's ult really is cracked

i assume the dps gain would spike much more if ganyu was used over ayaka for example?

[chilly hinge]

Possibly, though again you’d have to give up Ganyu’s ult altogether to do that. In Ganyu’s case it would probably be fine for single target if you build shimenewa. I was working on a sheet like that a while back

I used Ayaka for this analysis since she’s more popular and Ganyu seems to be moving to comps that wouldn’t be able to comfortably include shenhe (like melt, or just running Ganyu support lol)

[tough seal]

makes sense

incidentally do you have any math on how shenhe performs in eula/raiden?

[chilly hinge]

I haven’t done it myself but someone was working on it, I can find it real quick

[chilly hinge]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SUcDmc09jUBJGvvGlTUFgtO5Oa0FcuB-qLV13U0Vs1g/edit#gid=649161105 by TWICE#9958 from KQM

[tough seal]

thanks! constellation toggles on that sheet are quite nice

raiden/shenhe/bennett is the highest dps comp but whenever i play it i feel like i get interrupted by literally anything

[chilly hinge]

Yeah this sheet assumes basically frame perfect everything but that’s kind of hard to adjust for when making sheets

[tough seal]

that's ok, i solve my skill issues with my wallet

[hallow flower]

enjoy the blue role and thank you for your contribution to TC

[woven mantle]

[silver ermine]

Whoa

Thanks

I dunno what this role does but

[wooden stratus]

Do u guys think 200k total burst for shenhe is achievable with r5 catch

[long osprey]

Do we know if R5 wave break fin is competitive for bis on shenhe

Only see r1 on the calf’s

Calc *

[hallow flower]

refinements on wave breaker only increases her burst damage which is a minor amount of her team contribution

[long osprey]

^ @hallow flower Yep I just ran some calcs on the sitri master sheet by moding r1 calc , same conclusion

Very Modest increase even with favorable assumptions

[chilly hinge]

It means you get to be blue

[full lily]

Level 60 Shenhe w her level 70 4star weapon has overtaken my Ayaka in ATK

She adds 1307 of her attack buff with every quill

[autumn totem]

I think shenhe should be way higher, I think she's the best 2nd cryo on freeze teams

How is zhongli still that high?

[sage nymph]

Is there evidence/more casual friendly explanation for Shenhe being 5-10% better than Rosa and Kaeya? I don’t doubt this is true but I just want to know what is the make and break between them

[mystic linden]

seems like a dumb comparison since they have different roles in a team

kaeya/rosa depend heavily on weapon and arti investment while shenhe is basically at peak performance with just atk/atk/atk and enough ER to keep your rotation going

[tame flare]

try it out yourself https://viewer.gcsim.app/share/MrBnw3wZ4KK6cySfncb7NF

[sage nymph]

i'm unable to edit the config file here

[tame flare]

ya that's right, you have to edit it in the program

[sage nymph]

ah okay i see now

still it'll take a bit to learn this, and i'm more looking for what qualities make rosaria and kaeya competitive with shenhe

i assume its a combination of ER, rotation timings, and AoE scaling, but it'd be nice to hear from someone who has seen or worked on the calcs

[tame flare]

it's not too bad with a known rotation, the stats part looks intimidating but you can import them

[sage nymph]

yeah i'll play around with it a bit, seems good to learn, though i don't know how useful the information is from the program

since calcing what combat actually ends up being in the game is incredibly difficult

[tame flare]

curious why you think this, it's good feedback. it's not much different from spreadsheeting but maybe saves people the trouble from setting them up

[sage nymph]

i'm just saying I feel some people would take something like this and use it as hard evidence for team performance and stuff, which i guess is techinically true

but also that there is a big difference between spreadsheet calcs and actual gameplay

so i was just saying i'll be mindful of that when using it

[frank furnace]

so in single target, shenhe is a better ayaka support than ganyu?

[mystic linden]

stick shenhe in a freeze team with an undergeared cryo dps and she can be worse than rosa/kaeya

put her in a melt team and she's infinitely better because you can't have a second cryo dps in melt

anyone can use gcsim to prove their take if it's vague enough

[maiden canyon]

Look at this this https://youtu.be/ESC5aBp3V8s

[wooden stratus]

in a rosa shenhe melt team

do u still run 2bs on rosa?

[vapid egret]

4EoSF if ER needs are high(which they could very well be, i did not do erc for shenhe setups)

otherwise 4LW/2BS2NO/2BS2WT; since Shenhe's E hijacks the EM and DMG stat(also because 2bs2no and 2bs2wt are good in general)

35percent damage bonus on burst if you have 140ER; i'd go eosf if u need like 160ER i guess? but BSWT/BSNO gives u damage bonus on E too

rosaria

[wooden stratus]

Iera why are u everywhere

Stop

💀

[vapid egret]

I get summoned when rosaria or kaeya is whispered outside of hutao support

[wooden stratus]

Like

Just a tingle feeling that u are needed ?

[vapid egret]

yes

[wooden stratus]

can the dmg buff of the quills be affected by mona's omen?

[sage nymph]

yes

its just a damage bonus like kazuha's

[frank furnace]

if we get a character that reduces E cd, would it make shenhe OP

[wooden stratus]

Chongyun??

[obsidian ore]

https://tenor.com/view/shenhe-genshin-impact-shenhe-shenhe-chongyun-gif-24368639

[frank furnace]

hmm i was thinking something as significant as 4TF

[full lily]

Shenhe can’t be OP bc of how niche she is. Unless Cryo DPS get a buff in general but… they don’t need that lol

Actually, Shenhe would be OP if physical damage buff was included in her kit a lil more. Like tap E gives phys dmg buff of some sort and hold e gives cryo dmg buff

Her rotations would be a lil more hellish but it would boost not just Ayaka/Ganyu but also Eula/Razor a lil more

[autumn totem]

It depends by how much

Reduce tap E from 10 secs to 9.5? Won't matter

Reduce tap E from 10 secs to 1 sec? Yeah it would

[frank furnace]

yeah like a free c1

but i doubt they'll make one

so ayato refreshing/reducing E cd is probably fake leak

[autumn totem]

Wait until we get actual information before discussing Ayato

[wooden stratus]

So I pulled for C2 and got her within 180 pulls (three soft pities)... now I need to know: Has anybody tested her on a Melt Hu Tao comp?

[sage nymph]

niche has nothing to do with overall power

imagine all of shenhe's multipliers and buffs were tripled

she'd be absolutely broken, it wouldn't matter if she was niche or not

shenhe isn't op because her kit is balanced and has checks and weaknesses to its power

[wooden stratus]

A perfect explanation

For example you could have Bennet do everything he does plus give universal crit damage or like Sara but if the numbers are trash

[paper ice]

if her values were tripled, shed be broken and not niche lol

[wooden stratus]

It doesn't matter

[paper ice]

a character thats broken is not niche by definition

[sage nymph]

are you not contradicting yourself here?

you could make shenhe the most powerful unit in the game by increasing all of her multipliers enough

she would be niche because she only buffs cryo

[paper ice]

im saying the same thing twice

let me come back to this later

[sage nymph]

[wooden stratus]

This reminds me of for honor

A bit

Valk was one of the niches match ups you could ever had

As practically everyone and thier mother countered her

But u know what made her op in a sense

She was too safe

You had no way to punish her

If the player fucked up

[sage nymph]

yup, niche doesn't necessarily correlate to overall power

and in fact as genshin's lifespan goes on niche supports will probably become the most powerful units

[wooden stratus]

Shhhhhh

Don't tell them

[sage nymph]

once you have a decent pool of characters you don't care about someone is good at a few things, you want someone who is the best at once thing

[wooden stratus]

Its funner when everyone finds out later

[sage nymph]

true

[wooden stratus]

Yeap u definitely

Either played a good amount of mmos and Rpgs

Or gacha

[sage nymph]

nope

first gatcha and no mmos

[wooden stratus]

Imagine

[sage nymph]

i just know game design

[wooden stratus]

Interesting

Ah that would be kicker

U know what's funny

[sage nymph]

plus i know basic logic and reasoning lol

[wooden stratus]

No one talks about how mono cyro wasn't really a thing before shenhe

[sage nymph]

so many of people's opinions in this game have very faulty reasoning for them

[wooden stratus]

[sage nymph]

yup, she can be used in freeze but also created a new archetype

she's not even niche lol

she has more team comps than most units

[wooden stratus]

She has three

Most have two

[sage nymph]

reverse melt rosaria, freeze, mono cryo

[wooden stratus]

Yep checks out

[sage nymph]

and ayaka literally just has freeze (maybe some hutao-xiangling melt but eh)

but no one blames her

[wooden stratus]

Melt ayaka is cope

Unless speedrun

Sooo

Poor Aya

[sage nymph]

fun though

[wooden stratus]

Nah you forget her and Raiden work for the best for limited units so they must be niche.

[sage nymph]

still i think people will come to appreciate shenhe as time goes on

[wooden stratus]

It's a slow process

Bennet had to follow the same trend

[cold ridge]

well she isnt a benny for sure but hey

she is very strong, just is replacable by other units which makes her less of an worthy pull imo

[wooden stratus]

Dpedns on what exactly the main goal your trying to accomplish here

Frankly

Cyro carry shenhe diona/kokomi anemo

It's to good to pass up

And what I mean by that is

[cold ridge]

how do you do cryo carry

like you can only trigger quills with diona and anemo there

[wooden stratus]

If you have ayaka and ganyu why would you put too much power on one team if the assumption is you have limited resources.

[cold ridge]

i cant see how its too good to apss up

[wooden stratus]

Cyro carry is just ayaka or ganyu

Or Rosa/kaeya with heavy crit investment

[cold ridge]

lmfao okay i thought you were making shenhe a cryo carry

got me confused there

[wooden stratus]

No lmao

[cold ridge]

okay yes in lower investment shenhe could be better

but maybe not that much of an improvement over rosa or kaeya esp with multiple targets

which is still very good considering how good kaeya and rosaria are

[sage nymph]

i think this is the main problem with shenhe

and also as far as i know she is not as strong as Ganyu-Ayaka paired together

[wooden stratus]

There you go

[sage nymph]

Shenhe is a stronger unit than she is a pull

[wooden stratus]

That's the biggest and most crucial thing when it comes to teiring chars

[cold ridge]

i dont know the comparison between them, but i can see ganyu winning over shenhe in aoe situations

[wooden stratus]

What's the assumption

And what's the investment level

[cold ridge]

my intention was not to tier shenhe, sorry if it came as i was doomposting her

[wooden stratus]

Noooo

You're good

[cold ridge]

i was taking in the consideration of well invested units

[obtuse glen]

Yeah, Shenhe seems to be more single target oriented

[wooden stratus]

Shenhe vs ganyu doesn't really work

You would use both

[cold ridge]

idk i hate 20s rotation on ganyu

i love ayaka shenhe combo tho

[wooden stratus]

Ur not always gonna do 20 sec rotats

Sheets don't favor in game scerianos

It's also okay to desnyc rotations

If the CD doesn't always match up

[cold ridge]

feels clunky to paly ingame to me, maybe im doing something wrong

definetely doesnt feel weak

just

off

[wooden stratus]

Yeah

No I feel you

It was clunky till I firgured out the buff pattern

And now it's pretty smooth

[cold ridge]

guess i will give it another shot then thanks

[wooden stratus]

For me

It's just

Shenhe E anemo swirl kokomi E (she's running ttds) swap to ganyu

Rince and repeat

For just her cas

Not including bursts

[cold ridge]

lemme try that

[wooden stratus]

Also @sage nymph I org thought shenhe would be better for dolphins more than f2ps

And hm

Ngl

I think either low

Or really high investment is the way to go for her (assuming high investment also means you have a c6 ganyu or ayaka).

[sage nymph]

yeah that sounds right to me

[wooden stratus]

Dolphins don't really benefit as much

[sage nymph]

she's either a very cheap or extremely expensive unit lol

[wooden stratus]

[cold ridge]

and she is hot

very hot

[wooden stratus]

Wen cyro catalyst smadge

[obtuse glen]

A year or two from now when miHoYo kinda forgets Shenhe's kit & makes something cracked on accident

[wooden stratus]

Bruh

Dotto made a decent of

Oc

And shenhe was like hey member me yeah you Should've rolled

Breh

I can understand why they were Soo hesitant on buffs

[sage nymph]

oh totally shenhe would be so easy to just break the game

like a dedicate buffer for cryo...

scary to balance

[wooden stratus]

Yep

[sage nymph]

yup

[wooden stratus]

How it all began

Me and raikh didn't know it

But we called shenhe

[cold ridge]

lol wtf

[wooden stratus]

Yeah d.a

[cold ridge]

you guys scare me

[wooden stratus]

This was the creation of my first oc

Except the mv buff is c2

[lapis crow]

how was the model made?

[wooden stratus]

That's an old fake leak that looked cool

I said

Mine

[lapis crow]

ah, understoodable

[wooden stratus]

Ay it's pretty good

I would roll

[lapis crow]

i wonder if it's drawn or an actual 3d model

[wooden stratus]

Off design alone

Probably model

But I def would not rule out drawn

[lapis crow]

the reflection doesn't match so

mad impressed if that was a model tbh

[wooden stratus]

Bruh

If she had my copuim kit I would be more happy

It's a electro buff

[lapis crow]

modelling and texturing for a fake leak like that is crazy work

[wooden stratus]

For off fielders

[lapis crow]

i've never seen your oc's kit

[obtuse glen]

That's cause it's not a fake leak, it's an oc from an artist

[lapis crow]

[wooden stratus]

It was used as a fake leak

[obtuse glen]

Here’s the artist doing a commission https://twitter.com/cromahi/status/1480095932775641088?s=21

Cromahi (@cromahi)

#GenshinImpact #genshinoc #GenshinImpactOC

Screenshot edit commission for lady_akira on instagram
Summer skin 🌅

(Character design is not made by me, I just adapted it to genshin ingame artstyle)

Please do not repost.

Twitter · Jan 9, 2022, 8:35 AM

[obtuse glen]

Yeah, but it wasn’t intended to be

[wooden stratus]

I never said it was

I simply stated it was used as a fake leak

So I said I'm gonna use the picture

[obtuse glen]

I know, that's why I responded to Jrm & not you initially

[lapis crow]

is it a drawing or a model i need to know

[obtuse glen]

They called it a screenshot edit, so I'm inclined to say it's probably a drawing

[lapis crow]

yeah, checked their carrd and they're a digital illustrator

[rocky mirage]

Thats pretty dope

[cursive raft]

has anyone TCd a rosaria shenhe reverse melt?

Rosaria can snapshot bennett burst and then let shenhe come on field to have the bennett +atk apply to the quills as well

could get some massive hits

[lapis crow]

check #834184944674537493, XenoVX put them there

[chilly hinge]

yeah its pretty good, main downside is that if the enemy moves out of your rosa ult it kinda feels bad

[rocky mirage]

Lemme see the sheets too. I use that team now but i didnt really worry about calcs

The double dash from shenhe and rosa feels good to me so i kept it

[cursive raft]

The team looks really good and I'd have similar problems but this isn't quite what I was going for

What I'm thinking is the quill buff itself will be a lot bigger with shenhe on field in bennett burst

I think bennett buff will persist on shenhe if she quills right before rosa comes in for the initial hits of her burst too

Also how do library submissions work, is there some review process I can go through to verify the teams / calcs?

[chilly hinge]

they're for TC authors submitting their work, they can be discussed in #・theorycrafting if you get the role to post there. As for your idea with on field shenhe, I considered it, but it gets pretty dank to make sure shenhe is on field when quills are procced, at least for the first E, and by that point bennett ult will be almost over

but in general, staff are the ones that verify calcs/submissions

[cursive raft]

Sorry if I was unclear, I meant for somebody else to verify my own calcs dx

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rJo8XJ30y5u4Qx9jwvuTRDsDcBaTDC_ALj3yWj8bV7E/edit?usp=sharing

A Chongyun rev melt team with Shenhe I worked on

Single target it should only be possible to triple melt CY burst but otherwise the damage still looks good

[chilly hinge]

oh, yeah, you can post things in #・theorycrafting and ask for help, also here is fine too, I can look over your stuff when I have a minute

oooh hybrid kazuha, thats interesting

[cursive raft]

yeah he spends the shenhe quills as well

I was going to calc it with FS since the damage actually shouldn't be too different

plus it lines up with the rotation

[chilly hinge]

I see you line it up to not infuse pyro so thats good lol

[cursive raft]

no it infuses pyro

off of the self infusion

he spends it with chongyun infused normals since the multiplier will be higher there and his burst can provide pyro aura for melts

[chilly hinge]

Ah I see what you mean, so you get cryo plunges but pyro ult

[cursive raft]

yes

[chilly hinge]

yeah thats my mistake I was confused at first

[cursive raft]

in aoe scenarios the rotation would change so that swirls let CY quad melt

this is just for single target

[chilly hinge]

I'll look into it later, I've been working on the Shenhe guide, and the chongyun team suggestions has been something I've been looking into

the general number range seems on par with most melt teams using 4 star cryo units though

[cursive raft]

thanks ^-^

[wooden stratus]

I have no idea how to read calcs

[cursive raft]

Don't worry I didn't follow any common standard

But the box at the bottom of the first page has the damage

[wooden stratus]

My rosaria isnt super invested

Maybe i should work on that

I really wanna use shenhe but i just dont really have invested Cryo units

[pliant solar]

hey do u have any footage of this in action

the rot looks nice but it sounds a little dank when u have to adjust for spawns and movement

[pliant solar]

this however looks a lot more manageable

[cursive raft]

Unfortunately I don't have kazuha

And my bennett is c6 lol

I did play around with a bunch of comps in the potions event that had kazuha

[pliant solar]

oh its c6

[cursive raft]

This comp is C5 bennett

The chongyun Rev melt

[pliant solar]

i guess i can try it out

ive tested xl rosa shen ben

it feels nice but even on pma where it does minor movements outside of the q its already pain

[wooden stratus]

Yea

They need to not move

Which is tough

[cursive raft]

It's definitely circle impact

The good news is a majority of the damage takes place within like 5 seconds though so you only need that to take place inside the circle

For the chongyun team that is

[pliant solar]

yea u jus gotta make sure u land and melt the chong q

i have the units and thought about the team before shenhe release

but not with this rot

i gave up cause i was trying to melt both shen and chong

wait no my original goal was to melt chong first then play melt ben

but gauges and all just doesnt make it work

[mystic linden]

use chong to turn anyone into a cryo dps

[vapid egret]

yeah you should

my rosaria is weaker than the speedrunners' but my Kaeya Rosaria generally is clearing slower than Rosaria Shenhe melts despite really minmaxing my ER needs

this may be due to honed spirit bullshit but I think it's safe to assume Shenhe is an upgrade, not sure on what artifacts though

[wooden stratus]

I have calamity

C0r1

So im assuming she'll be better than kaeya

But the problem is circle impacy iguess

[vapid egret]

well, I hope she is for you pepela

but I found shenhe way more impressive in monocryo

that's just my thoughts though

gonna record a monocryo run after I wake up

[mystic linden]

are you playing monocryo with no healer? or diona?

i've just been playing shenhe ayaka freeze because kokomi does more dmg than diona in the healer slot, even with quills

[pliant solar]

yea ive also settled on mono cryo for consistency

its nothing record breaking but it feels nice to play

[wooden stratus]

i dont have built cryos

💦

[vapid egret]

healerless ofc

💀

[vapid egret]

monocryo

when my shenhe goes to 1/9/9 ill do it again

[full lily]

You already see this happening with all the new niche supports (Sara as Electro buffer, Gorou as Geo buffer, Yunjin as NA buffer)

[full lily]

Well monocryo just couldn’t really match up to freeze, I feel like? Like Cryo has three solid reactions. Why would you ignore them lol

[cursive raft]

Bennett on the other half and unfreezable bosses

Also superconduct? Lol

[stark niche]

Pretty sure you can also run it with sayu if you want a healer. Just build ATK/cryo/CRIT on her

[full lily]

Why does everyone make such a big deal abt bosses?

Like. This is a genuine question

Everyone talks abt bosses as a weakness of freeze , but like

[rocky mirage]

Because 4BS users have trash critrate usually

And if u cant freeze it stays trash

[full lily]

The thing abt that is you can inflict frozen on bosses

It just won’t stick

So it takes better rotations but

If your crit is trash bc you’re using 4BS against bosses and freeze doesn’t stick I’d call that a skill issue

Literally just freeze on hit

ALSO. when did bosses become a significant and deciding part of the meta? Like you have to intentionally choose to engage these enemies. It’s simple to switch to a team comp that works better if you really can’t manage with 4BS. Or in Abyss, I guess I see the point but then it returns to the “skill issue” portion, as well as the fact that bosses aren’t actually that common in Abyss (current f12 notwithstanding, I agree that freeze isn’t very effective this Abyss if you have skill issue)

It’s like calling all melee bad bc they can’t deal with specters. Okay?? Work around it

If freeze stuck on bosses people would claim it’s broken. It’s called balance

[rocky mirage]

But isnt changing team comp just basically saying that freeze is weak against bosses

[cursive raft]

You asked this question, so I gave you an example (current f12 essentially) where freeze provides nothing that mono cryo can't

[rocky mirage]

U cant say u dont understand why freeze is weak against bosses then say just change your comp to not freeze lol

[full lily]

It’s not easy to play against bosses, where freeze is normally a comfort comp making up for low skill.

[full lily]

I’m saying you can just switch comps if you suffer from skill issue and can’t freeze to crit when you need to

[cursive raft]

Losing 20% cr on your carries is a big deal anyways

[full lily]

Yeah I’ve just seen this argument made a lot before and I’m really confused

[rocky mirage]

I dont think freeze teams are just about comfort, they are about abusing 4BS

[cursive raft]

No omen extension without the freeze etc

[rocky mirage]

And omen if thats part of ur team

[full lily]

This is a fair point

[full lily]

No I think they’re usually used as a comfort comp for casuals. Abuse BS for easy build + enemies can’t attack you

Oh no you actually have to use a brain to best utilize freeze + 4BSagainst a boss??? Whatever shall you poor casuals do?????

[rocky mirage]

Oh ur just here to rant

Let me excuse myself

[full lily]

But Maxi’s point abt the omen is actually quite good, I’ll concede that

[cursive raft]

Careful you're sounding a bit heated

[full lily]

raises brow I guess I just don’t see the logic in some of the points being made

[cursive raft]

Something like ayaka as an example. If the boss can't stay frozen, it can move and completely neuter her burst.

[full lily]

But i mean if someone isn’t open to considering other perspectives I’m wasting my breath

[full lily]

I’ll admit this, although this is more of an Ayaka specific weakness

[rocky mirage]

i mean if all the major advantages of a comp are more or less invalidated in a scenario , saying that its weaker in that context sounds… accurate

[cursive raft]

And if enemies are not being frozen, ganyu charge shots (if used) will not be landing as accurately

[rocky mirage]

Weaker doesnt mean unusable of course

[full lily]

I don’t see the first half of this (“all major advantages being invalidated”) even though I agree that freeze is weaker in the context of bosses

I just don’t understand why people are willing to dismiss it due to this weakness

The only advantage of freeze that can be lost here is the loss of preventing a boss from moving

Which is not the most major advantage of freeze, although it is significant

It just reduces Freeze to being concerned abt missing like idk a Rev. melt comp might be

But you still get the crit buff and you still deal a crap ton of damage

[rocky mirage]

I wouldnt put too much stake in what others dismiss if i were you

If people wanna run national for the entire lifespan of their game they can go ahead

but u will struggle in a TC channel to prove that its better than the alternative if u cant freeze in a freeze

[cursive raft]

At the same time I hope you would recognize that freeze under ideal conditions is leagues better than freeze against bosses

No venti burst grouping means no quadratic icicles, forced to run Diona instead of a higher damage teammate, prone to a large amount of damage whiffing and low uptime on the 4pc BS freeze bonus

[vapid egret]

you can, if you want to lose hella damage

entire reason why i ran sucrose is for c6 buff to party and ttds to shenhe

[wooden stratus]

https://tenor.com/view/im-proud-of-you-dan-levy-david-david-rose-schitts-creek-gif-20773745

[stark niche]

Ohhh true, i don't have C6 sucrose so i didn't think about it

[plush sleet]

Has there been any calcs done for Shen Ganyaka and kazoo?

[full lily]

Oh, I see. So the downside of freeze against bosses is it loses the aspect of being a comfort comp and begins to introduce skill issue

I understand now

[full lily]

yes of course. I’m not thick

[full lily]

Forced to run Diona?

[cursive raft]

what are you even here to argue anymore

what do you want from me

if you want to be dodging around non frozen bosses go ahead

[plush sleet]

Anyone? There’s gotta be at least one sheet

[full lily]

Damn that got heated real quick

I get it I’ll drop it

Nothing wrong with wanting a thorough answer to a question I thought but like if it was pissing you off I don’t need your perspective that badly

[autumn totem]

I think it's worse than ganyaka Mona venti but don't have math with me, I can draw out something later if you haven't found it

[wooden stratus]

???

What just happened

[vapid egret]

[plush sleet]

Ok thank you a lot

[autumn totem]

I got 56k primary target, 50k secondary target

You might be able to squeeze a couple extra k dps perfecting the rotation but it's not gonna move too much from there

I have Ayaka Ganyu Mona Venti at 53k primary target, 50k secondary target, and that allows you to run Kazuha on the 2nd team and have some sustain on the team (Mona with Prototype Amber)

[plush sleet]

Nice thanks a lot‼️😐

[autumn totem]

These are kqm standards btw. Level 90 t9 4 star R1 weapons, r5 if event or craftable, 20 substats on each char, best team rotations I found through my own testing

[hallow flower]

could you post a link to it?

i would like to take a look

[astral zephyr]

Sigurd iirc calced something like that but got way lower numbers I can be wrong i dont remember

[autumn totem]

I usually just do a rough math of the teams and then put them through a Sim to make sure they actually work, energy wise and such, and am usually able to get results a within a few % of sheeted calcs. Maybe we just had different standards for the stats?

I can post a pic of mine when I'm back home

[astral zephyr]

I dont really remember

I can be wrong

[cursive raft]

I don't think so, just don't know what you were even asking anymore. Just seems like you came to fight

[wooden stratus]

Yeah

I would wanna run rosaria kaeya shenhe

But instead of bennett maybe jean?

4 pc vv jean?

[vapid egret]

rosaria mentioned

oh no discussion

[wooden stratus]

Yeah i mean im considering rosaria kaeya shenhe jean

Bcuz i need a healer bcuz im pepega

[vapid egret]

sounds good

i guess

[flat birch]

Hmm

[wooden stratus]

i should

lvl shenhe to 90 right

💀

[vapid egret]

💀

[wooden stratus]

i assume so HAHAH

💀

[mystic linden]

realistically she's one of the least value lvl 90s in your roster

it's like getting bennett to 90 just for that extra 15 atk

[wooden stratus]

:0

um

i lvl90-ed bennett

[obtuse glen]

I like seeing the 90/90 so I do it with all my frequently played units, but if you’re more concerned with efficiency then probably don’t do it

[wooden stratus]

i am probably the least efficient

[indigo yacht]

is shenhe better with r1 engulfing or r5 fav lance?

[chilly hinge]

its not that cut and dry. Fav lance can be better than most of her 5 star options if you can reinvest ER subs on your teammates into damage subs, but not everyone will have that luxury

[hallow flower]

this also changes depending on your team's elemental makeup

3x cryo with venti for example doesnt really need ER and you get more milage from shenhe having high quill dmg

whereas shenhe with eula, fav becomes stronger to battery your eula

[hallow trail]

anyone have any thoughts about triple cryo shenhe team with kazuha?

[rocky mirage]

Shenhe is strong in mono cryo

[hallow trail]

I feel like there are a lot of options with her and I dont know what team is best to use and in which scenario

the triple cryo kazuha or 2 cryo with kazuha and my kokomi or triple cryo kokomi

[full lily]

Triple Cryo kokomi is never her best team

I think. I haven’t calced but trading 4VV shred for freeze is not a good idea, plus Kazuha can benefit from Shenhe where Kokomi can’t

[dapper jewel]

does shenhe affect considerations for atk mainstat on ayaka on goblet or circlet?

[rocky mirage]

shenhes quills are not affected by the hosts attack

[mystic linden]

makes them even worse than before, yea

[rocky mirage]

If anything it gives crit and dmg% more value

[dapper jewel]

okay thanks, that was what i suspected but wanted to be sure lol

[vapid egret]

i 89'ed shenhe

💀

my mora dead

[wooden stratus]

if i run kaeya rosa shenhe

is harbinger of dawn better on kaeya????? if i dont have any other crit waeapons

[vapid egret]

now that you've mentioned it, i believe so; it's great on kaeya and great for shenhe

except the team runs no healers so you have to be careful

[wooden stratus]

jean

im probably run 4 vv jean

[vapid egret]

💀

sure

[indigo yacht]

ty

[fast maple]

if run jean on shenhe, what goblet is best? atk?

[hallow flower]

for jean or shenhe?

[fast maple]

jean

[hallow flower]

anemo goblet for jean always

[sour socket]

Has anyone considered Zhongli Chongyun Shenhe Yun Jin?

Zhongli using White Tassel.

[wooden stratus]

Cryo zl?

[sour socket]

Yes.

Could even use Lithic on Shenhe in that comp as a budget option...

[wooden stratus]

What's currently the most "meta" comp and build for C2 Shenhe? – yesterday I tried Ganyu C0, Shenhe C2, Kazuha C0 and Diona C6. Was not disappointed regarding constant Cryo Snow Storm; yet I don't know if this comp is any good.

[sage nymph]

I don’t know about C2 Shenhe specifically, but freeze with Kokomi or Mona is her best comp at C0, with Ayaka rather than Ganyu

[indigo yacht]

:o cryo hutao who

[chilly hinge]

guide is coming soon, the mono cryo team you listed is def one of the stronger one's I'd recommend. However freeze with Ayaka and Kazuha and Kokomi is currently the most popular, followed by a variant that uses Ganyu support instead of Kazuha. However that could change in future abyss's

[clever yarrow]

does shenhe skill snapshot or should i be using my noblesse buff before i use her skill?

[remote pebble]

shenhe's skill is dynamic

[chilly hinge]

Icy Quills do not snapshot and use her ATK at the time the quill is consumed. Noblesse buff persists off field so you'll still want to use it first. Meanwhile Shenhe quills will not benefit from Bennett ult if Shenhe is off field. However if a unit is standing in Shenhe ult, getting the 15% cryo damage bonus, that does apply to the quills triggered by the active character, but not units that are off field unless the cryo DMG bonus was snapshotted

tldr shenhe complicated, guide almost done, thank god

[paper ice]

why is this thread still active

[silk oak]

Because shenhe is complicated

[rocky mirage]

Oh i didnt know the quills triggered by the active chars would get the bennett buff

Thats pretty nice

[mystic linden]

only if shenhe herself has bennett buff

[chilly hinge]

Yeah though Shenhe has to be in field for her quills to benefit from the buff, it’s realistic you can get a few buffed quills off when swapping in if you have a lot of enemies and a ticking cryo skill is already going

[jagged leaf]

Has wavebreaker fin any merit for Shenhe or the amount of dmg you get from her Q and base attack you lose by trying to get enough ER?

[stark niche]

I would argue that wave breaker weapon series are designed for characters that have shenhe in the team, as 80% bonus DMG is huge for shenhe quills.

[chilly hinge]

its one of her better weapons for sure, though as you say, you do need ER sands. Fav with triple ATK main stat comes pretty close in total ATK to wavebreaker with ER sands, so it depends on whether you value energy gen for teammates or Shenhe's own damage more. But unless you can build Shenhe with a lot of crit, the damage bonus from wavebreaker isn't going to make as much of a difference as you'd expect. It will help a bit, but the weapon mainly works due to its high base ATK.

[void flint]

Does shenhe quill scaling warrant running adc venti over em builds (maybe even running cryo goblet on venti)?

[chilly hinge]

crit builds yes, but I don't think a cryo cup would be worth it

[void flint]

gotcha, thanks!

[chilly hinge]

it depends on how many refines you have for fav lance, but at high refine you can get away with around 20-30% CR before cryo resonance. I wouldn't say she needs CR main stat at all but its an option if you have one with good subs that you don't need on other units. As for BS, BS is recommended for freeze teams if you have 4NO already on a Mona or Diona or something, and helps Shenhe's damage in AoE a bit as well. With 4 BS, you'd want to do CD circlet over CR. This is the mainstat breakdown per artifact set by target count from the Shenhe mastersheet

[chilly hinge]

If you want you can weave a normal attack in between your E and Q on Shenhe to increase the chance of getting a proc

[clever salmon]

quick question is it worth to get blackcliff on Ayaka for shenhe over r5 anemona

not worth it

more like is it better

[autumn totem]

Nop. Ayaka needs energy

[stark palm]

does anyone have the team calcs for ayaka shenhe kokomi kazuha vs ayaka diona mona kazuha

[autumn totem]

I usually don't use Kazuha with Mona, but I have that calc with Venti. Shenhe still loses

I did R5 Fav Diona by mistake, but that doesn't change much thanks to Venti

Mona might need an extra ER roll or something but the dmg difference is negligible

[stark palm]

yea its not that big of a difference

thank you for sharing the calc tho

[autumn totem]

Np 🙂

Btw, my rotations may not be fully optimized, they're the best I found between other people's rotation and my own testing. And ER reqs may be a bit higher than calc'd sheets because it accounts for bad RNG and not just average.
As such, you might be able to squeeze a few extra dps% here and there on different calcs

[chilly hinge]

I’d argue that level of difference is somewhat insignificant. I haven’t used the sim yet but I may try it out at some point to retire ye old sheets, for different combinations like Shenhe/Venti Shenhe/Mona ect

[autumn totem]

Yup. But requiring 1 less 5 star and not requiring kazuha on the shenhe-less comp makes me say shenhe is not a good investement meta wise

[chilly hinge]

How does C6 Sucrose with TTDS and XQ over Kokomi fair in the first team? I wouldn't say Kazuha is required though he is usually optimal. While meta value is important to consider it's also important to optimize units that people want to use for fun regardless of their overall power level. So I'd say that being able to be competitive with other established meta teams is good enough.

[autumn totem]

I haven't tested, I can try to do it tomorrow if you want

I agree, competitive characters are healthy for the game

Just saying that her comps aren't direct upgrades over Diona or Rosaria when paired with Ayaka and/or Ganyu, so for meta purposes, you're spending more primogems to get a 5* with similar results to other 4*s

Waifu-wise, go for her! 😄

[chilly hinge]

yeah I think thats fine also its like Day 500 of me not rolling a Mona so more niche damage amp chars are always welcome..

[autumn totem]

Yeah that's tough

[mystic escarp]

There's an interesting post on NGA regarding different freeze teams performance currently. They're manual calcs but they provide a precise rotation map for every team comp. Here's a quick summary of the results as well as the link to the post in case someone wants to check it out

[autumn totem]

Idk in what world Shenhe > Ganyu vs 3 targets but ok

Their assumptions must be way off from kqm standards

[mystic escarp]

Yeah, CN has significantly different investment standards

They're much higher with 24 substat rolls

[autumn totem]

Oh, wait

That's damage to primary target right?

If it is I guess Shenhe Could have a higher dps than Ganyu, though I'm still relunctant on that

I wish I spoke mandarin to understand that

[mystic escarp]

Yeah, exactly. It's only the damage to the elite enemy that's counted, so only 1/3 of Shenhe's quill damage counts

and of course only those Ganyu icicles count that hit the main enemy or cleave onto the main enemy from the 2 small targets

[autumn totem]

Oh, true

Then it doesn't make sense

No way Quills divided by 3 targets deal as much damage as 3 clogged targets for Ganyu Q from my sims

[mystic escarp]

I'm not exactly sure how those sims calculate Ganyu sims. The OP of that post said he used the data from this analysis post of Ganyu Q (https://bbs.nga.cn/read.php?tid=27497265&fav=ff3f136d)

It says that there's 5 Ganyu Q icicles every 1.5s of which 3 lock onto the target and always hit. The other 2 are random to hit and they assume that overall 66% of these random icicles somehow hit the main enemy

They also build Shenhe as basically a buff bot, meaning 4p NO with 2 Favonius procs per rotation, so she's mostly used for dmg% buffs, battery and res shred

[autumn totem]

Weird

I've done the same

And it favored Ganyu

With 2 targets

[mystic escarp]

Yeah, I'm not sure either

what investment standards do you use? CN uses mostly 5* weapons as long as they're better than 4* ones

Mistsplitter Ayaka could skew things things probably

[autumn totem]

KQM standard. 4* weapons, R5 if event/craftable, R1 if gacha

C0 5 star, C6 4 star

[mystic escarp]

Hmm, I mean I could see investment standards making a huge difference in these scenarios

CN is pretty generous with 24 substats,
5* or R5 4* weapon depending on which is better

C0 5* and C6 4* is the same though

Ganyu has pretty solid 4* alternative weapons whereas Mistsplitter for Ayaka is a league on its own

CN calcs also favor teams with multiple well scaling sub DPS/support units because of it

[mystic linden]

24 substats is less than kqm standards most cases

kqm uses 20 distributed + 2 of each freebie so if you scale with just cr/cd/atk you already have 26 substats

[autumn totem]

Doesn't CN distribute the other 16 stats?

[mystic escarp]

Oh interesting, I never read through KQM's substat allocation standards

CN does it the following way: They allocate 24 average offensive substats (meaning 3.3 crit, 6.6 crit damage, 19.75 EM etc.) and they provide an additional 4 substats for characters that scale off multiple stats like ER/EM (e.g. they give XL an additional 80 EM), and as I said they mostly use 5* weapons

I'm not 100% sure about their ER stuff, they always include ER with 0 and 10 mob particles, but I never figured out which one they use for calculations

[autumn totem]

Huh

That's.. something

What about on Shenhe's case, where you go atk%x3 on main stats

How many atk% can you allocate in substats

Any idea?

[frigid stump]

how many rolls do you get for subs

cuz the average atk% roll is like 4.9% or smth

if shenhe has atk% on sands, goblet and circlet

[mystic escarp]

They don't build 3x Atk on Shenhe, they go double Atk at most typically

They don't value her quills a lot as they don't scale well into aoe anyways

In the freeze calcs she uses Atk/Atk/ER with 10 Atk subs and 14 crit subs if I'm seeing it correctly

[mystic linden]

kqm limits distributed stats to 2 per arti slot so atk/atk/atk shenhe would only have 4 atk% rolls from flower/feather and the other 16 stats dumped into cr/cd (minus w/e she needs for ER)

er/atk/atk seems like a really silly build when some of her best weapons are ER substat, and if you want to run one non-atk main stat to favor her personal damage it should definitely be a cryo cup

[mystic escarp]

For calculation purposes I don't think it matters whether you go ER% sands with Atk% substats or vice versa, at least not with the CN standards that don't seem to really limit the amount of rolls of a specific substat

[mystic linden]

only if you need all 50%ish ER from a main stat, which usually isn't the case with an ER weapon on shenhe

[autumn totem]

They use 5 star weapons, so she'll likely use a calamity queller anyway

[frigid stump]

on everyone ?

[autumn totem]

Yup

[frigid stump]

WTF

[autumn totem]

From what Sue was saying, yeah

[frigid stump]

that's insane

[autumn totem]

Yup

Mist Ayaka, calamity shenhe, FS kazuha, ttds Kokomi I believe

[frigid stump]

I like that koko still has ttds

[autumn totem]

Yup XD

[frigid stump]

but other then that

[autumn totem]

So yeah I can see that favoring some chars over others due to those standards

[frigid stump]

It's kind of sad how some characters' 4 star weps are

[autumn totem]

Ganyu doesn't gain as much as shenhe from a 5 star weapon when used as a support I believe

[frigid stump]

I wish every character at least had like a really solid 4 star

[autumn totem]

Same

[frigid stump]

doesn't have to beat the 5* but at least compete

[autumn totem]

A craftable one at that preferably :p

[frigid stump]

same

I wish childe/xiao and a few others had better 4* options

[autumn totem]

At least you can do Amenoma Ayaka, Prototype Ganyu, Iron Sting Kazuha, Ttds kokomi/Mona and be fine. And Catch Raiden on the other side or something

[frigid stump]

cuz like the whole "Xiao is a good f2p pull just use starglitter lmao"

is annoying imo

[frigid stump]

yeah

hopefully we get more event weapons and craftables

coping for sumeru, I have enough prototypes to r5 every wep except claymores

[autumn totem]

I just hate it when BP weapons are that much better than other 4 stars

[frigid stump]

right

ss and dm

[autumn totem]

Serpent spine is too good

Yeah

[frigid stump]

ridiculous

like you can't even consider SS with the other 4* it's so good

[autumn totem]

It's the Bennett of the weapons

[frigid stump]

I also think bennet adds to the problem

his atk buff diminishes the base atk of 5*

case in point wgs

[autumn totem]

Yeah true

That and the fact that SS has crit substat

[frigid stump]

yeah

I wonder if mhy would have the guts to make more characters that buff crit like rosa. coping for the tsaritsa

[chilly hinge]

Interesting data, thanks for sharing!

[mystic escarp]

You're welcome! If you're interested in anything specific and need translations for their rotation maps etc. you can always ping me

[stark palm]

im pretty sure i heard something about how CN tc just always assume the signature 5 star or otherwise just the best available 5 star in kqm

[chilly hinge]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TrTWjrLwC9AL-fFrLnzAjYFeT-L8Rcp-BxNoeu61OOI/edit?usp=sharing Shenhe guide is done and verified by KQM and is being transcribed, so I'm posting the google doc of it here early while its being uploaded in case anyone wants to read it "early"

[wooden stratus]

U want me to send to shm mains

[chilly hinge]

No need, I’m waiting for it to be transcribed before posting it there, mostly for presentation purposes

[wooden stratus]

U sure u don'twant staff chat to get the sneak peak 😂

[chilly hinge]

I’m TC head there

[wooden stratus]

Ik

[chilly hinge]

Actually yeah you can post in staff chat if you want

[wooden stratus]

Lmao

Copy lol

[chilly hinge]

I’ll be pretty busy today for a bit

[wooden stratus]

They've been waiting for sometime

[stark fern]

zaaamn, thanks for your hard work

[ripe cedar]

OH NIOCE

THANKS

[chilly hinge]

Yeah, unfortunately some of the people that wanted to help with transcription are busy playing lost ark so I’ve been waiting too, but they’ve put in a ton of effort already I don’t mind waiting longer

[ripe cedar]

THANKS XENO

[wooden stratus]

I unfortunately dont know how to transcribe but If u need resources/help just ping me

[chilly hinge]

Yeah zamora was going to convert it to a pdf for me. The KQM editors are working on it for the site as well

[wooden stratus]

Oh shit

I almost forgot

[jagged fractal]

Anyone here??

[cold ridge]

dead thread

[stark niche]

[silk oak]

It still exists huh

[vestal chasm]

Oh it's still here

[foggy kindle]

hm

[ripe cedar]

hi friends

we're still alive I guess

[wide linden]

Oh wow

Its still alive

[wooden stratus]

[topaz lagoon]

[wide linden]

Let's treasure this last moment

Before death appears

[leaden holly]

Nani revival of shenhe thread

[wide linden]

Oh shit

Its still alive

[wooden stratus]

?

[tough seal]

[karmic jasper]

Hello