Itto Thread

[dapper bramble]

i see

[prisma lily]

i haven't seen anyone talk about double geo w/ itto, only triple and mono, but i'm thinking of just using albedo/itto, does it seem like that will be enough energy for itto?

[patent galleon]

Prob not unless ur other two units provide a lot of energy or use Fav weapons

[reef stump]

Varies a bit on the Team but overall it doesn't seem great for Itto's ER reqs. Albedo or really all Geo Supports aren't exactly great batteries, compared to what we have for other elements. And since Itto himself is so field time greedy it also becomes much more difficult to battery other units should they need it

In Triple/Quad Geo you don't really have that issue since you either have relatively low ER reqs to begin with, can skip Bursts or simply have enough Geo energy gen across the Team that its not a huge deal

I plan on looking into several comp options, including double Geo variations. But based on some preliminary looks we had here a while ago Double Geo didn't look that promising due to energy concerns

[glad violet]

How many % difference is R5 ss to r1 redhorn?

[reef stump]

~4% assuming you use 2 Es inside Itto's Q

[glad violet]

Wow really, just that much? Cool.

I just hope the -resistance and increased dmg taken doesn't mess up his shields that much

[reef stump]

He has so much DEF that he is still a lot more tanky than regular units and that translates to shields aswell

[glad violet]

I hope it's manageable.

I'm probably overblowing it in my head

[reef stump]

There is no reason why maintaining a shield with Itto would be especially difficult

[glad violet]

Was thinking zhongli's shield but I suppose it should be fine.

[reef stump]

You should have absolutely no problems then. Can't find a better shield and you should even be able to build dmg on ZL rather than go full shield bot

[misty vigil]

diona albedo itto gorou?

[ancient pecan]

i would go with that team if i didn't have ZL or was forced to pick a healer (corrosion abyss floor for example)

[red umbra]

is 4 geo itto better than xiao + geo bros or is it too early to make such claims

I just want to get a general idea

[quaint locust]

Its prolly too early to make claims since we cant put it to test rn

Someone could try providing math of both teams but it wont work as well as putting both teams in abyss and testing them

[sage eagle]

Anyone got any general dmg calcs or potential information on how good itto might be

[real phoenix]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XIbjWO2W0FSxHlgJLKzADlbV_5jpIBYRcp2sm53Vy_0/edit?usp=sharing

raikh's sheet

[sage eagle]

Thank you

[sage eagle]

I'm assuming that a number like: 6000,00 the , is the same as a decimal? Because the numbers look too high otherwise lol

[real phoenix]

yep

[charred crag]

what is fav bow gorou's ER req looking like in mono geo? I scrolled a good ways but can't run a search in a thread (or at least don't know how to) and no pins 😦
My gut is telling me the 180-200 range should do the trick, but it's worth checking what kind of sands I'm looking out for before I start foddering trash for NO boxes.

itto's is ~130 iirc

I'm also throwing ~230 worth of pity at this banner chasing c6 gorou, so if a "miracle" happens and I get not just c1 but c2 itto, I was wondering if that actually changes anything at all about the way he's played? Seems to me that shortening his Q CD doesn't change the field time that the supports will need between rotations, so all I could see is it potentially cutting ER reqs even lower (which would only be a few substats worth of difference assuming you can end up with the perfect subs everyone sims but very few ever get)

[reef stump]

200% ER on Gorou is likely what you will be looking at yeah. I'd generally recommend jsut going for ER Sands

C2 Itto is very threshold based in terms of value. Technically you can do a shrotened Support rotation to finish off a chamber faster with it if you have the dmg

[charred crag]

sounds like he's a c6-or-bust whale target 😛

[reef stump]

More or less so, yeah

C2 can be valuable but unless you specifically design your rotation around specific clear times it can have virtually 0 value

[charred crag]

I only actually care about c0, c1 is just very likely going to come as a consequence of chasing gorou and I'll be fine if it doesn't. From what I can tell c1 doesn't even really net much extra possible damage within a Q window/wastes stacks assuming you're throwing ushi as soon as you Q anyway

[reef stump]

Ofc we might find specific C2 rotations with practical testing and experimentation but thats just up in the air rn

[reef stump]

C1 is around 7% more dmg

Numerically its not great

but it frontloads dmg a bit more and will likely play pretty nice

[charred crag]

tbf I had thought it was closer to ~3-4% haha, so that's good news.

[reef stump]

You can do an extended CA combo with it in the opener since the Stack Gain is delayed

From your second rot on you should always start with atleast 2 Stacks

C1 makes that 4, Ushi cast the fifth and you should be able to spend them before the 3 delayed Stacks roll in allowing for a SCA8+ combo

[charred crag]

what's S stand for there

[reef stump]

Superlative/Stack

Just refering to his special CAs

[charred crag]

fair enough, gotcha

I don't like counting frame data/throwing MV/s in so it's a lot more vague to calc the value of things like hutao C1 or other "QoL which translates to higher dmg" cons than damage-per-hit improvements

mostly because I play on mobile with 30FPS and I have no idea how accurately anything I will sim will translate vs an arbitrary number

[reef stump]

We also jsut need practical testing for that. LIke, even with fairly accurate frames and aggressive optimization there is a tendency to undershoot what we can actually do later since the leak footage jsut doesn't have the ideal cancels and combos

And that can not only shift the power level in general but also the value of the affected Cons

[charred crag]

I already don't like throwing in substat assumptions vs waiting to find out what subs I specifically can throw in. I know how to use MS Excel but that's always awkward to me/finding out what peak performance could be while never realistically reaching it doesn't feel useful.
That being said I have zero issues 36*ing with what I already have (including current mono geo for fun) so however competitive itto ends up being I'm going to enjoy it because I like his mechanics and the idea of an even more cohesive mono geo synergy.

[unique rover]

I use no sub stats in my calcs

Bcs I don't actually know how they'd apply to me

[quaint locust]

Do we have anything set on what gorou should have in terms of artifact main and substats? something like ER/DEF/CR with emphasis on DEF substats or something?

[reef stump]

ER/Geo/CR. If you go for C4 and want to optimize healing going for a DEF Goblet can be fine but in terms of dmg optimization there is no merit in blindly stacking DEF. You'd jsut build him normally with Crit > DEF% for that.

[quaint locust]

could i ask why theres no merit in stacking DEF?

wait does gorou increase DEF not from his scaling, but based increases DEF using whatever the active char has?

if so then i misunderstood the shit outta gorou for as long as his kits been leaked

[reef stump]

Gorou's E/Q Buff is flat defense entirely independent of anyone's stats and his A4 provides 25% DEF like a Substat, so its dependent on the receiving units Base DEF.

[quaint locust]

so the E/Q DEF buff isnt based on how much defense goro stacks

its based on the base DEF of the other chars?

then why use a geo% goblet instead of a DEF one?

[reef stump]

The E/Q Buff is purely dependent on his Talent Level and the extra 25% DEF from his Ascension Passive are purely dependent on Base DEF

[charred crag]

simply because geo% scales his (admittedly mediocre looking) damage more than a def% goblet will, since him stacking def% has no impact on his ability to give others def/def%

[reef stump]

So how much DEF Gorou has, has 0 impact on his Buffs

[quaint locust]

even on his C4, defense% wont give any extra heals?

[charred crag]

that's the only case where it would, but assuming you're using zhongli in a team full of characters with 2k+ def, it's not like his C4 is going to be very... necessary

[quaint locust]

in that case, what artifact sets would look good on him?

since 2 HooD just got a lot less likely for me

[charred crag]

4NO ER/Geo/CR with fav bow the best we can figure

[reef stump]

Generally I'd just slap 4NO on him

If you truly want to optimize his own damage its 4HooD/4EoSF

[quaint locust]

oh man i was gonna go for 2 EoSF 2 HooD on him

[charred crag]

if you really care about a def% cup, feel free, but his base def is actually on the low side and he needs enough ER to make it where you aren't really putting a lot of def% on him anyway

he'll be getting "plenty" of def from his own E

[quaint locust]

nah im just shocked that i rlly misinterpreted how his DEF scaling works

esp since ppl said his base DEF is pretty low

[charred crag]

it's 603 at 80/90, 648 if you want to go full ham and 90/90 him for whatever reason

[quaint locust]

wb 80/80

[charred crag]

575, dunno why you'd go to a cap without ascending though

(if you had other breakpoint questions)

[quaint locust]

well personally i dont rlly give supports last ascension with two exceptions

ah ty

are there any calcs showing how much "better" his dmg would be using a Geo% over anything else?

[charred crag]

Not sure, raikh may have a sheet for that lol

[quaint locust]

actually there wouldnt need to be any

since it just straight up is better

[charred crag]

gorou doesn't look like he's going to do significant damage regardless

[quaint locust]

hmm

i guess i could prolly just have the gob stay as unequipped if i rlly wanted

but the substats would say otherwise

would i prioritize CR, ER, or what for substats

and in what order

[charred crag]

if you're using ER sands and a 90 fav bow... just some CR basically, your ER needs should already be met

[quaint locust]

so its pretty much just

CR>Def=ER>anything else?

[charred crag]

throw in some def%, CR/CD, extra ER, it's all gravy. Gorou is there to give his E/Q buff, even built for dmg he's going to be contributing maybe 5-8% of the team's damage, probably less than zhongli
(assuming itto/zhong/albedo/gorou)

[reef stump]

I have indeed

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x20IwTqLd9xt3zwqFGgwb_b3GJbl3JfaCwzRPZY0ofM/edit#gid=0

in EoSFs case specifically a DEF Goblet can be as close as 5% worse as a Geo Goblet, outside of that the difference is larger though

[quaint locust]

my team would be itto zhong goro and a flex, prolly bennett or ningguang but not sure who else i could consider

[reef stump]

Optimizing Gorou's dmg in general is not reálly worth your time however. Thats a super stacked Gorou and he still only manages about 80k DPR

[quaint locust]

so would you say that picking a def goblet has insignificant damage loss or nah 5% is significant?

its goro, im aware, and he just doesnt have much damage

[reef stump]

For a DPS I'd say 5% is something you'd want to take advantage of. But Gorou is such a disappearingly small portion of total Team Dmg that it really doesn't matter.

[charred crag]

He/we are saying that whatever you pick is going to be insignificant, but it looks like you get it and are asking for I-simp-puppy-boy reasons

[quaint locust]

ah, i guess what only matters for goblet is substats since both will be near useless

(and accidental simping)

[reef stump]

Yeah

[charred crag]

you could even give him HP% goblet

[reef stump]

which is also why I'm recommending 4NO bc its a little bit of Itto dmg at the end of the day

[charred crag]

wtb flat def feathers

[quaint locust]

bruh imagine

im still trying to figure out what I shld put on ningguang tho if ever i do use her over bennett

ig its just gonna be smth along TTDS and NO tho

since she can only provide those and geo%

[charred crag]

in her case either 4NO+TTDS and give gorou something else, or if c6 gorou just build her like a normal burst DPS and go 2AP2NO/2AP2Glad, giving atk% to itto isn't very consequential and gorou doesn't give a whole lot to her beyond 15% dmg and potentially 40% CD.

[reef stump]

TTDS on Ning is not a good idea in an Itto comp

You want to go from Gorou Q to Itto

So you will likely either not get TTDS on Itto or pay with Gorou Buff Uptime for it

[quaint locust]

goros buff is 9 seconds and can extend up to 11 right?

[reef stump]

9s at base, lingers for 2s after expiring, yeah. Additionally it can be extended via Crystallize pick ups with C2 Gorou

Itto will likely be on field for 14-15s with hitlag

[charred crag]

his Q buff is, but as it stands his A1 and C6 are now standalone buffs

that have their own independent timers after casting E/Q

[quaint locust]

damn i wish we knew if he could snapshot his DEF or not

itto that is

[charred crag]

waiting to find out if itto snapshots is certainly a thing a lot of people are curious about

[quaint locust]

yep...

[charred crag]

the new geo/def set is very awkwardly implemented in general for snapshotting characters

[reef stump]

They like to try and make the Sets more interactive which usually just ends up making them worse

[charred crag]

thankfully the geo% portion of the 4p won't matter

as far as snapshotting goes

[reef stump]

PF is a good example for Eula. 90% fo the time just run 2PF2Bsc and don't bother with 4PF

[storm tulip]

fairly sure the new set stacks up off field

but we will see in couple of days

basically you only lose stacks of the new set if you are on field and not dealing geo damage

this does mean the set has negative synergy with getting serpent spine stacks before abyss start, basically you choose one or the other

[charred crag]

In other words, yes, it's awkwardly implemented for snapshotting characters. If you aren't going to do something like E>NA>Q>swap to gorou and use his E/Q>E on albedo, you set it up and it won't be stacked until the next rotation. Itto likewise is going to have a very strange time with it (if he does snapshot). I'm fairly certain with the wording (we'll see) that you will lose stacks while off field too, supposing you're itto and not doing any off-field geo damage for instance.

If I understand you correctly, you're under the impression that the "when off the field" text is separate from the on-field text, and it shouldn't be. Off field still only stacks from geo damage done, just at a slower accumulation than on-field

[reef stump]

If it actually stacks every 3s off-field completely passively then that would mean you'd start with 2-3 Stacks even on the first rotation, even past pre-stacking SS.
But as I've been told its off-field Geo dmg with a 3s cd. Don't know if there has been any update fully clarifiyng the Set

Since the english description would imply the former but its far from the first time they fucked up their wording

[charred crag]

I'm actually very interested in the order of operations for that team's setup haha

[reef stump]

Dugtrio?

[charred crag]

not sure if that's the same as mono geo/ itto+zhong+albedo+gorou, but yes?

[reef stump]

It is, Dugtrio mroe speficially refers to Itto/Gorou/Albedo

[charred crag]

it seems like there's pros and cons to every decision on who to go first and snapshot what/get the maximum amount of uptime and buffs

[reef stump]

Preliminary rotation is:
Gorou E -> Albedo E -> ZL E (Q) -> Gorou Q -> Itto Q

[spark aurora]

im still going with the passive gain

[reef stump]

You can do an extended Support rotation to resnap Albedo first rotation

But I don't think its really worth doing tbh

Or pay 1s of Itto Buff Uptime and Albedo E after Gorou Q

[charred crag]

since zhong E/geo resonance 15% doesn't snapshot, I guess that makes sense. I almost always open with zhong E to avoid interruptions

[pastel rapids]

Are there any other good supports beside zhongli in the Dugtrio comp?

[reef stump]

ZL should be the best but you can work with either another shielder or a Sub DPS that can field a reliable Aura for Crystallize

Technically there are quite a few options, but how reliable or worthwhile they are has to be explored

[charred crag]

yeah, I'm really not sure (assuming spindle 4HooD albedo) if the 25% def buff opportunity cost is worth the lost potential uptime on itto/if itto actually gets a lot in at the last second of uptime, or if getting albedo stacked to snapshot in the first rotation is worth the field time at all. Albedo is going to be doing a hefty chunk of overall damage, but he's not something like childe+XL

[storm tulip]

no, if it does stck off field you just hve someone not equipped with the set be your first slot and wait as you would to stack up serpent spine or alley hunter before starting the chamber

[reef stump]

It basically has to be looked at within the prospect of the single first rotation. On the second you will have him fully stacked anyway. So its purely a cost benefit analysis if its worth the extra time or Buff uptime in that single rotation.

[storm tulip]

it would get you full stacks always

[storm tulip]

zhong E snapshots, geo resonance is a dynamic buff that only applies to active character

[charred crag]

zhong E as in the shield it supplies to enable geo resonance damage buff, not pillar resonance damage.

[charred crag]

if it does stack off field passively and with no geo-damage-trigger interaction (which is unlikely and extremely convoluted in its implications even by MHY standards as far as the interaction with the first and last part of the 4p description goes), you could simply pre-stack itto's SS and use 1 unbuffed E at the start of the rotation setup, and have full stacks ready by the time you zhong hold E/Q, gorou E, Albedo E, Gorou Q, and back to itto.

If it did stack passively, there would be a very weird zero-maintenance cycle of 1>2>3>4>3>4>3>4>... stacks. I can't say it's impossible but I can say in my opinion it's very unlikely. In the original chinese, there's a semicolon rather than a period separating the two clauses.

[storm tulip]

no, there is no such maintenance

because stacks are still gotten

they just refresh

that happens for all types of stacks in game except aloy's because it is specificaally noted you cant get them during rushing ice

it would be a "dont stay on field with itto and noelle while their Q is down"

[charred crag]

it is very weird how sure of yourself you seem to be, but we'll see

[storm tulip]

I'm not sure of myself

but I m sure there wouldnt be that stack cycling of 3-4

if it does stack off field

also I was literally the one that mentioned the semicolumn first

the reason I think that is no longer the ccase is they tweaked the english wording slightly again

and kept it as is again

[charred crag]

fair, though I don't know about that last comment since I got that from an unrelated server with chinese players xD

[storm tulip]

another thing, it is not just a semicolon

it is colon with 2 points seperated by a semicolon

like so:

point 1;

point 2;

point 3;

etc.

either way we will know in a couple of days

so really no use disccussing this further

[charred crag]

colon* and there's just one semicolon present. Fair enough though, either way blame MHY for awkward translations/explanations.

[storm tulip]

yes, hence 2 points I was giving a general example

[charred crag]

it's not worth going into what a semicolon represents grammatically in relation to a period, you're right xD and since I assume you're going to want to get the last word in, I'll just drop it and let you; we'll definitely see how it works in a few days (and I hope your interpretation is right since that would be better, I just doubt it)

[fickle mango]

hi, any thoughts on turning c4 gorou into a low-investment dedicated healer with 4pc clam and def/def/hb? Would this open up the 4th flex slot to be some other subdps characters instead of utility supports?

[spark aurora]

if it doesnt gain passively, then that either means itto doesn't snapshot def or they fucked itto up

[charred crag]

sounds very, very sketch, especially using the 4p bonus instead of 2pclam/2p maidens (or 2pclam2p HooD).
You'd still need a lot of ER subs to have his Q up for healing, meaning investment still kinda high for a meme build
His Q has roughly 50/50 uptime and isn't going to heal that much even with 2 def mainstat artis, and the way 4p clam works along with his healing tick-rate is going to translate into an absolutely meaningless amount of dmg via the proc.

Assuming you're thinking of trying to run healer-gorou and only rely on crystallize shields for the shielding, replacing zhongli with something like c6 fischl? Overall not worth it I would think, just have his normal level of c4 heals and build him for 4NO, artifact-wise.

that clam 4set is only going to be somewhat meaningful with jean(if you don't need 4vv)/barb/kokomi/maybe qiqi or noelle(if you want to build noelle really derpy), i.e. characters that can actually put out a lot of healing to the point that it's overhealing in a short time/do team healing rather than active-character-only.

C4 gorou isn't going to be in that category, should be more than enough to heal incidental damage/a few stacks of corrosion damage in between shields, but not a heal that enables facetanking like Bennett

just ran some numbers, assuming 80/90 C4 Gorou with T13 E, def/def/HB mainstats and +15% HB 2set, he'd be healing ~1430 every 1.5 seconds to active char. 2 ticks of that per 4p bubble proc(3sec accumulation uptime), 90% converted into damage would be 2575 dmg per ~3sec. Not counting any def% substats on hat/flower/feather, but... I think the numbers speak for themselves.

oh, and only like 2-3 bubbles per Q

[fickle mango]

You'd still need a lot of ER subs to have his Q up for healing, meaning investment still kinda high for a meme build

Right, but the thing is you're gonna naturally get a lot of clam pieces from farming for itto, which means you won't have to waste resin to farm for a new NO set for gorou (assuming you don't have any spares lying around). Furthermore, ER subs aren't difficult to get; with a level 80 fav bow you'll only need around 45 ER from subs (assuming 200er req), which is definitely manageable since you're not looking for any offensive substats, just ER and some DEF%.

especially using the 4p bonus instead of 2pclam/2p maidens (or 2pclam2p HooD)

True, I didn't think about that. If you want to optimize Gorou's healing even further, you can do 2clam/2HooD ( and both sets are available in the domain)

C4 gorou isn't going to be in that category, should be more than enough to heal incidental damage/a few stacks of corrosion damage in between shields, but not a heal that enables facetanking like Bennett

While his heals definitely aren't as amazing as Bennett's, I feel like the healing bonus from the 2pc clam and the HB circlet may offset this. With my very rough conservative calcs, gorou c6 def/def/hb with 2pc clam and 2pc hood has 1.7k def, which means he heals for 1.3k per tick, which is definitely nothing to write home about, but it should be able to keep the team alive with itto having high def and crystalize shields.

The main reasons I'm bringing this up are 1. resin efficiency when farming for itto, and 2. it allows flexibility in organizing team comps. If you're gonna need a dedicated healer with gorou c4 anyway, why not build gorou c4 full healer and leave the flex spot for someone with better off-field damage.

[charred crag]

The main assumption is that you don't need a dedicated healer for itto, you need a shielder. Gorou c4 enables "I don't need to worry about heals in situations where I take a little bit of damage through shields", similar to (but much easier to attain than) zhongli C6.

I'd say you're free to try it out but don't expect it to be realistically feasible, I'd rather trade the clam fodder into NO pieces personally using the boxes they implemented.

there's a possibility that the amount of geo procs that itto+albedo+gorou can do will make relying on crystallize shield viable and let you consistently benefit from geo resonance/tank a reasonable amount of damage while constantly refreshing crystallize shields, but I wouldn't bother trying to build gorou as a pure healer when the point is more to stay shielded than facetank. Something like c6 fischl for A4 procs and crystallize shields is probably not going to add as much benefit as zhongli's additional res shred for itto/albedo and pillar resonance damage (and the quality of life his shield brings).

[hasty quail]

so did Itto get any changes in the pre-load

besides maybe his particle generation

[rigid seal]

how are his weapons looking, is it redhorn > SS > whiteblind and if so, how behind is whiteblind

[sharp sinew]

I hope YunJin is a good support for itto

[reef stump]

Gotta see if Yunjin joins the Furry Fan Club

[dapper bramble]

https://www.reddit.com/r/IttoMains/comments/r03hue/math_r1_ss_r5_wb_r5_ss/

what makes it differ?

[reef stump]

He literally went to 100/200 on Crit Weapons and WB all the same, so WB runs on a way higher Stat Budget effectively.

[tribal osprey]

Sounds like a dumbass ngl

[reef stump]

I'm afraid so. I'm really not sure why I thought it was a good idea to comment on that post. I really brought that onto myself. The arguments are just idk.

[primal wing]

I know beta starts very soon so speculation is more or less pointless, but how should Yun Jin's kit be like to be a good support for Itto/replacement to one of the dugtrio + Zhongli comp?

[unique rover]

We can't say anything yet since her kit isn't released yet

[primal wing]

Not what I meant

I meant how should it be to work with Itto, not what it will be

Just hopium basically

[reef stump]

Things Itto wants are a shield, DEF scaling low field-time Sub DPS, or another compatible Buffer.

So she basically had to be either like ZL, Albedo or Gorou in nature, since those 3 are basically the things Itto wants the most.

[unique rover]

Anything that may have Def bonus, geo bonus, e na ca bonus, def shredder, geo res shredder, possibly a shield, good dmg

[reef stump]

Yunjin could ofc also be a good Geo battery, however Triple/Quad Geo doesn't actually need a dedicated battery. So that would only start to be interesting in Duo Geo Comps

[primal wing]

Thanks for the answers

Tho somehow I feel like she'll be a 4* dps lol

[unique rover]

If off field that may be nice

[reef stump]

Another off-field DPS for Geo would be nice, yeah.
Especially one that isn't bound to constructs since those have both practical and mechanical issues

[primal wing]

For sure, I'm not getting Albedo so if she was an off field dps she would fit perfectly into my team

[inland dagger]

I just feel the need to post it here lmao

https://youtu.be/gqQACLvtlF8

[dapper bramble]

ah sorry its my fault then.

[reef stump]

No worries. Its my thing if I decide to comment on some Reddit Thread. And I even managed to resolve the issue in the end aswell. So its fine in any case

[quaint locust]

Is this the last day itto thread will be up or will it be up until banner release

[short obsidian]

Would 4 geo itto zl albedo gorou work considering max # of geo constructs is 3? Is the gorou buff geo construct?

[real phoenix]

it doesn’t say it is, so no, it’s not a geo construct

[storm tulip]

set stacks off field

called it

[spark aurora]

[alpine crown]

they really designed it so as to not work well with serpent spine huh

[quaint locust]

i guess this threads gonna be up until itto releases

or until they rename it shenhe thread lol

[iron apex]

I think they will archive this thread & start new shenhe thread

[quaint locust]

did they do the same with previous chars?

[storm tulip]

no, they designed it as to work well with all the chars that might want the set

serpent spine just took the hit from it and not even a big one

[unique rover]

i found something

so 4pc hood actually starts with 4 stacks

and then goes down when not used

[real phoenix]

proof?

[unique rover]

here wait

[real phoenix]

if you have proof and like, a video, post it in #834184944674537493

[steep marsh]

it stacks when you are off-field
you dont actually need to do Geo DMG while off-field to stack

[unique rover]

wait

righttttt

i forgot

[real phoenix]

[steep marsh]

so the only way to lose stacks is being on field and not doing Geo DMG

[unique rover]

that's true

so the set is actually for itto...

this clears many doubts on its use to itto

[dapper bramble]

is there any indicator for the stacks, or we gotta math?

[real phoenix]

a number on their back like yanfei CA

[dapper bramble]

[patent galleon]

so even Noelle can gain stacks when off field?

[unique rover]

yes

This clears worries about having to create stacks and fear of losing stacks

[steep marsh]

The only bad thing is that is a bit non synergistic with Serpent Spine

[dapper bramble]

yeah

mhy really want us to pull redhorn eh

[tranquil widget]

design-wise it looks like mhy is trying to sell comfort when it comes to itto

c0 SS vs c2r1 are going to feel very different when it comes to comfiness

[low valve]

oh boy

[gusty turret]

i've been away for a few weeks, did anything change or is the consensus the same?

[frigid hound]

@tight crypt u can look around here

Or ask some of them if the chat is active

[tight crypt]

Thanks @frigid hound

[primal wing]

Rip Yunjin being good for Itto

[quaint locust]

I mean with the leaks, so far it only looks like she might replace zhongli

To me it looks like that, unless someone else could show their input?

[unique rover]

She won't really replace zl

Since zl is there for shield/maintaining geo resonance

[storm tulip]

she doesnt belong in an itto team to begin with

she might be good over zhong in noelle comp

because noelle has her own shield and benefits from yunjin in what she wants to do

but for now best buff target for yunjin seems to be yoimiya

[quaint locust]

Oh i meant replace as in if someone doesnt own zhongli lmao

So shed prolly be good in like a goro noelle yuujin team?

It seems that way since she scales of def

[unique rover]

she's fine with noelle's team since noelle has her own shield + she uses na

[dapper bramble]

dem 2.4 abyss 2nd half is itto cockblock right there. luckily 1st half still fine for him.

[red umbra]

Anyone got a comparison between 2 husk 2 Petra and 4 husk for itto?

[storm tulip]

just trade albedo for an anemo unit

[hallow lark]

4pc is better ofc

[red umbra]

yeah im jw what the margin is

farming up 2 sets for albedo and itto is gonna take a while

[hybrid relic]

you can check it in itto main. Low priority made a itto calculator maybe you can input and see the different

[slim storm]

[teal sable]

she is nothing like zhongli, she doesn't even have an actual shield

she's not close to a zhongli replacement, the closest is thoma

[primal wing]

If she buffed CA she could've been a cheaper option for Albedo's spot though

[charred crag]

She seems like a geo, def scaling beidou.

[nocturne sorrel]

her E is worse in every way

[charred crag]

I can't tell if her Q is a separate damage proc that yunjin has ownership of or if it's a flat damage bonus that the attacking character has ownership of, which is going to make a big difference for infused characters like Noelle/yoi

Also the first character that actually tries to incentivize rainbow resonance lol

[quaint locust]

This is now a yunjin thread lmao

[teal sable]

worse in comparison to who 💀

[ruby tundra]

Does anyone have a chart comparing weapons for itto

[red umbra]

is the assumption that albedo uses his Q in dugtrio comp?

[nocturne sorrel]

beidou as mentioned

lower scaling, and her def is inevitably lower than beidou's atk to begin with if you want to maintain the sasme dmg% and crit

[reef stump]

Depends on the circumstances. A DEF/Geo/Crit Yunjin can have more DEF than a ADC Beidou has ATK with like SS and no Bennett steroids

But Beidou definitely has more means to amp her damage

[teal sable]

Where do you see lower scaling

Her skill has higher scaling

[real phoenix]

a full charge beidou counter is 883.2% at T12

[teal sable]

Oh

I forgot she gets two stages too

[real phoenix]

i think the only thing better about yunjin's E, damage aside, is that if you miss the perfect counter, you don't need to get hit to get charge 2, you can just wait a little over a second

[storm tulip]

???

unless you mean with bennet/sara on squad

this isnt the case

[quaint locust]

Is it aight to ask what the similarities between the two are?

Beidou and yuujin that is

[storm tulip]

the E, that is about it

[quaint locust]

Oh

[storm tulip]

petition to trade xinyan E with yunjin E btw

[reef stump]

Primary thing I'd like to see for Yunjin is the Q working for CAs

Her dmg potential is quite interesting but so few units can utilize it

[storm tulip]

yup, but that is exactly why I wouldnt like to see that

I would much rather she just got higher scaling for better rewarding new playstyles

mihoyo is doing something unique with her

making her just another bland buffer is boring as fuck

a small tweak I want to see though is her a4

it should go down to 1/2/3 and be 5/7.5/11.5

losing a resonance is basically never worth the last buff

and elemental resonances are a core mechanic of the game

either do that or make the difference much higher

[reef stump]

Yeah that Rainbow mechanic is a bit weird. Certainly not impactful enough to warrant it

[nocturne sorrel]

yunjin's base def is the same as beidou's base atk with a 42 base weapon. assuming atk/def sands, you would need 24 substat rolls in atk/def before the slightly higher def substat scaling overtakes the 311 free flat atk on feather

you won't have 24 atk/def rolls in any reasonable build

[storm tulip]

what you are forgetting though

is 4pc husk

[nocturne sorrel]

true

though that comes at the cost of whatever non-def/atk scaling beidou's set gives

[ancient pecan]

if you're comparing the parry, beidou only gets 15% dmg from 2p TF, meanwhile yunjin gets 24% geo dmg
yunjin artifacts give her more stats overall

[storm tulip]

she aint even using tf

she is using emblem

[ancient pecan]

yea, but best case scenario when comparing parry is 2p TF 2p 18% atk
comparing the bursts is not as easy as comparing set bonuses because you're using the on field character stats

[storm tulip]

like on a regular damaging build which yunjin would never run unless you are playing geo quickswap i guess

yunjin parry is better than beidou at a base

but beidou just has so much more access to amps

although yunjin can always get her damage off reliabily

while beidou cannot

[ancient pecan]

technically true
easier res shred, easier buffing (def only has gorou), easier dmg% bonuses

[reef stump]

At my investment standards Triple DEF Yunjin with C6 Gorou can still dish out ~53k full counters avg dmg. Its respectable dmg, its jsut that her Q matters much more and its not enough ro carry her into a Team that can't use her Q well

[storm tulip]

how much er do you have on her

[reef stump]

Went with 140% for the first look

[storm tulip]

that is mono geo range for noelle

[reef stump]

I mean she has ER Ascension, not like I gave her a ton of ER Subs

[storm tulip]

yoi/benny/kaz/yunjin is around 200% ballpark on ER

which is still easy to achieve since you really only care about ER on your defense pieces

and some crit rate to trigger fav spear

yeah, but inherenntly the comps where she wants to be used in

need her on a lot of ER

[reef stump]

If I go up to 190% ER the full counters still sit at 46.5k with C6 Gorou, 31.3k w/o

But ofc in a non-Geo comp w/o Buffs for herself her Counter dmg starts to drop significantly

[storm tulip]

yeah, you arent basically ever holding her counter as a support

if you proc a1 on the tap good if not whatever

[spiral tartan]

hello, this may have been talked abt before but i would just like to ask as question about itto's viability w/o albedo? i am planning on pulling for him but the best team id be able to do is like hyper-itto (itto,gorou,bennet, and like a zl or something for flex)

[reef stump]

Albedo is primarily a good Sub DPS for Itto, he is not mechanically necessary for him to work. You will pay with some Team Dmg but nothing that would seriously impair Itto, especially when you have Gorou and ZL, the latter beign arguably more important than ALbedo for him

[sharp sinew]

will Itto be fine with just Gorou?

[spiral tartan]

tyvm i honestly like albedo so i was on the fence, but i cant justify using precious wishes on him when his use case is a bit less universal than other chars like lets say kazuha

[reef stump]

Yeah, he has a bit of the issue that he is technically a good filler unit, but rarely ideal. He will be finding a good home in Noelle/Itto+Gorou Comps but gotta know if its worth it to pull him jsut for that if you don't find much use for him elsewhere.

[wheat kettle]

is the arataki kesagiri considered as charged attack?

[atomic sundial]

yes it's considered CA dmg

[red umbra]

What’s the rationale for ZL being so important?

Geo resonance uptime?

[tribal osprey]

Gonna dissolve this thread soon tm since itto will come out soon

[reef stump]

Geo Reso upkeep and general shielding to protect him during his combos. Basically the same reason Xiao and Melt Ganyu like him so much.
And given Itto's natural tankiness ZL should be able to build for dmg comfortably, so with some construct resonance and the extra shred he isn't even bringing a dmg deficit.

[reef stump]

^

[steep marsh]

so 4 Geo comp?

[halcyon glen]

Hey guys, how is Itto looking so far in terms of power? Trying to decide on whether to farm wolf boss for his level up material or not.

[sharp sinew]

Is there any damage numbers out there that shows his damage only (unbuffed)?

[reef stump]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XIbjWO2W0FSxHlgJLKzADlbV_5jpIBYRcp2sm53Vy_0/edit#gid=49248599
Note the investment however, has both his dmg with just Geo Reso and C6 Gorou.

[sharp sinew]

Thanks

The numbers go high with Gorou alone

How is he compared to Xiao unbuffed?

[reef stump]

He looks somewhat similar on paper (atleast w/o Plunge Collision for Xiao)

However its a bit difficult to compare them directly. Xiao should absolutely have better AoE but Itto has more dmg coming from other units than Xiao.

My Xiao Calcs for reference:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vYgQnCwdcVDplLILAn189Pacu-bEzTDvlKPI1AlThA8/edit#gid=0

[sharp sinew]

Tysm

[red umbra]

aoe aside, similar personal output to xiao with much lower unit opportunity cost and better access to subdps is pretty great

[reef stump]

His raw numbers do look pretty promising. Just gotta see how his rotations work out when we can playtest him. Primary reason why I've been fairly conservative with takes on him.

If what I got comes true as is or better he'd basically be a Geo Main DPS that fits right in with the current 5* Meta DPS.

[sharp sinew]

I'm really torn if I should pull for Eula or get Itto instead

Both have their ups and downs but Itto looks really fun to play

[patent galleon]

id pick whichever you will enjoy playing more then

[sharp sinew]

Yeah

I don't do abyss that much anyways

[ancient pecan]

do we have any comparisons between itto and c6 noelle? not doomposting just curious

[reef stump]

I did some personal dmg Calcs for 2.3 Noelle, but since Noelle doesn't perfectly fit into 20s rotation windows and her comp dynamics are very different I'm not sure how well suited they are for a comparison

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OXZPDUsAsmiappp9_2AUVG8DgOCZS-1I0s79i_le8kQ/edit#gid=0

[ancient pecan]

true, you can usually fit in a couple geo MC rocks in her rotations

or other support skills

[hexed ridge]

I've seen some calculations over at the CN community, they suggest that Itto deals around 50% more damage than Noelle

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/770309475424796682/910161093538775070/Noelle.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/770309475424796682/910161085485682768/Itto.jpg

maybe they're useful to you

Top right is the total DPS, it's 19,6k vs 30k

[patent galleon]

i mean makes sense that Itto would do more, although Noelle def has more comfort IMO.

[reef stump]

That would be fairly similar to what I get if I compared my Calcs side by side

[ancient pecan]

50% is a big difference

[hexed ridge]

It gets somewhat diminished depending on how invested your other team members are

It's more of a 30% total team DPS difference from what I've gathered there

[ancient pecan]

i imagine
that is only personal dps comparison right?

[hallow lark]

Can itto even break aybss mage shields?

[hexed ridge]

Yes

[hallow lark]

I have seen xiao do that very good

[hexed ridge]

We don't really know but it's likely he'll at the very least be better than Noelle at it

[ancient pecan]

geo usually sucks at breaking shields

[hexed ridge]

Probably not exactly stellar

[ancient pecan]

only ZL burst is kinda ok at it but that's because it applies a lot of geo in one hit

[hallow lark]

his final hit might do

it looks like a plunge attack

[hexed ridge]

It's not out of the picture that his special CA has some sort of enhanced shieldbreaking capabilities

we'll have to wait and see I suppose

I would assume his teams will be more than fine against abyss mages, but not viable against Lectors

[ancient pecan]

depends on the lector element i think
for example if your itto comp uses ZL and has 1 flex slot you can add chongyun to cryo infuse him and CA spam hydro lectors until they die

i guess you can do the same against the electro one with c6 benny

... or just use 4p TF benny

[wheat kettle]

How big is the diff between an R1 SS to his BiS at R1?

[reef stump]

15% ballpark in favor of Redhorn, can vary a bit based on personal Stats

[wheat kettle]

Woah really? I thought it'd be higher. What about R5 SS then?

[reef stump]

about 4%

That is assuming 2 E casts within his Q every rotation, which seems ideal right now.
SS favors E much more than Redhorn which allows SS to stay close despite lagging behind on NA/CA dmg

Ushi just does a lot of dmg

[wheat kettle]

I calculated it to be around 33% r1 vs r1, disregarded any kind of substats except for the 1:2 ratio for cr/cd. Maybe i overlooked some of the calcd

Thanks tho!

[reef stump]

Did you calc total dmg or jsut individual NA/CA dmg?

Otherwise Substats matter a lot in this case, since the higher your DEF and Crit Stats are, the more desirable the dmg% SS offers gets in relation to them.

[wheat kettle]

Just NA/CA dmg. Didn't really focus much on overall damage so that may be the case. Also didn't account for the talent levels so that must've been the reason

Got a lot of insight. Thanks again!

[reef stump]

For NA/CA dmg specifically the difference is larger. 22% in my Calcs R1 vs R1. But E does so much dmg and scales better with SS over Redhorn that SS can catch up significantly in total dmg

[patent galleon]

how reliably can Itto fit two E's within a single Q?

[reef stump]

Should be perfectly reliable. 10s E CD, 11s Q duration and then you will have a bit of hitlag extension that gives you more leniency

You always start with E and then you press it off cd so its back up for the next rotation

[quaint locust]

Since SS appears to have anti-synergy with 4 Husk, is there any rotational way to get around having stacks from both up all the time?

[wheat kettle]

SS and husk don't go together? Why?

[patent galleon]

they work together, just not ideally with how Husk set stacks work

i dont think it will really matter for Itto unless his Burst snapshots Like noelle

[reef stump]

You can pre-Stack SS before combat and then you have a 6-9s Support rotation before you actually get to Itto

So he would start with 2-3 HooD Stacks on the first rotation

and then have 4 permanently

So all you miss if he snapshots is basically 12% DEF, since the Geo dmg% still applies dynamically

[patent galleon]

alot of recent units dont snapshot

so i dont think he will anyway

but yeah if he does its not a big loss

[quaint locust]

Aight ty, that answers my question

[wheat kettle]

If i have itto and gorou on one team, who else can I put if I'm using zhongli ang ningguang on the other

Or should I use all four of them in one team

[charred crag]

What kind up upper end damage are we expecting on albedo again?

Fairly mediocre set and still R2 on weapon obviously, but I'm expecting gorou to add significantly. 30k+ procs with gorou and more investment sound feasible?

[hallow lark]

you can get better crit damage atleast 120-130

[charred crag]

fairly mediocre set

[storm tulip]

it is a different kind of snapshot

it would be wierd if he didnt

basically itto noelle convert their defense into a buff on Q cast

noelle does it by taking her defense and then giving you an atk buff, the buff then doesnt update dynamically

and should be the same for itto

[storm tulip]

yes

[charred crag]

Same as hutao E, it's extremely likely he will snapshot conversion, especially after the new set turned out to build in the background

Very nice that it turned out that way

[storm tulip]

yeah which will make for some pretty fun meme videos of defense stacking and artifact swapping and one shotting with ushi

[charred crag]

mess with the bull

[crude mesa]

damage wise, is itto better than eula?

[past garden]

idk if this has been answered (it probably has) but is wgs looking to be decent on itto?

[steep marsh]

Worse than Whiteblind

[sharp sinew]

Just want to ask, does Itto make use of ATK in his burst or is it useless?

[onyx junco]

all of his multipliers use atk, his burst converts def into atk, so obviously he uses atk. the reason you should prioritize def subs over atk subs and a def sands over atk sands is because his base atk is not really high and his def is really freaking high, so in his case def% scales better than atk%

[sharp sinew]

Thanks, how much defense should I have is 1.5k bad?

[real phoenix]

that’s pretty bad for itto

i’m pretty sure 1.5k is practically a lvl 90 itto with a DEF sands and 0 other sources of DEF

[onyx junco]

he could have 2k+ def pretty easily if you get a couple of decent subs, specially with his set, look at noelle and albedo for example

[sharp sinew]

Geo sands, cd circlet

[real phoenix]

geo sands doesn’t exist

[sharp sinew]

nvm

It's all def

I have 1.2k Def on my level 60 Noelle 4pc Husk

[real phoenix]

DEF/Geo/Crit is what you should aim for, 4pc Husk

[sharp sinew]

Yeah, I have this

[real phoenix]

that’s so low

characters who scale off of HP/DEF benefit more from going to level 90

[reef stump]

Itto already has 1.5k DEF jsut with DEF Sands

Put Husk on top we're already around 2k

[sharp sinew]

Okay I miscalculated

I forgot the def piece is based on character stats right?

Like 20% of 900 def?

[real phoenix]

base DEF, yeah

[sharp sinew]

Thanks

I'll have 2k def if I computed it right

A bit of ER should be good too right?

[real phoenix]

your level 60 noelle has like 128% DEF since you have 1.2k and lvl 60 base noelle is 526

so if you just take her to 90 that’ll go up to 1.8k

[sharp sinew]

Is that still low? Or do I need to breach 2k?

[patent galleon]

around 2k is fine tbh, you have to remember gorou is basically a given with Itto as well. so getting alot of Def shouldnt be an issue

[real phoenix]

is your 1.2k with all stacks of husk?

[sharp sinew]

No

[real phoenix]

0?

[sharp sinew]

Yeah, I don't need to worry about crit ratio with Gorou right?

[sharp sinew]

Basically what is shown in attributes page

I'm just using Noelle as a home for the artifacts rn

[real phoenix]

so with all stacks your noelle should go up to 1326 DEF

[patent galleon]

for C0 gorou 4pc NO and Fav bow seems to be the best choice overall, so using a crit circlet and some crit subs will be helpful for proc'ing the weapons passive consistently

gorou really isnt gonna be providing any meaningful team dmg tho, so the crit rate is really just for Fav bow

[real phoenix]

with my napkin math you have about 39% DEF in subs? correct me if i’m wrong

[sharp sinew]

+39
+12.4%

I'm still farming

He's gonna use Serpent Spine

[real phoenix]

what’s the +12.4%?

[sharp sinew]

Substat of artifacts

+39 is flat

[real phoenix]

wait huh

because lvl 60 noelle is base 526, 2pc husk and DEF sands is 83.8%, 4 stacks is an extra 24%, and that brings us to 1116.698 out of 1326.24

[sharp sinew]

Yep you got it right now

1162

ig I got bamboozled when switching artifact

[real phoenix]

then the leftover 209.542 DEF should be in subs smh

hence 39.8% DEF in subs

[sharp sinew]

Also I want to ask what talent should I prioritize

[patent galleon]

AA/Q/E prob

[real phoenix]

idk about that

seems like they should be leveled equally

Ushi hits like a truck

[sharp sinew]

So ig 8/9/9 would be good?

8/9/10 if I get another crown

[ancient pecan]

i would go 9/9/9 before crowning

[real phoenix]

^

[sharp sinew]

Okay thanks

[reef stump]

I suspect the priority is AA >= Q > E but haven't gotten around to the comparison yet

[red umbra]

do we have a rough idea of ittos ER reqs in mono geo

[reef stump]

110-130% depending on the setup

[red umbra]

double fav on zhongli and gorou should probably allow for 110 right

[reef stump]

dont even need Fav on ZL for that

let me find my ER Calc

[red umbra]

I have a fav levelled but not opposed to running DM on zhongli ig

[sharp sinew]

Yooooo I got 140% er on my future Itto

ig I'll be fine

[red umbra]

105 with just fav on gorou?

wtf

[reef stump]

Gte a bit more bc particle rng, but yeah

its a joke

Itto is fairly good at helping himself

[red umbra]

didn't u calc itto at like 130

[reef stump]

126 yeah

Triple Geo is 120-130

[red umbra]

oh right fair

[reef stump]

And I'd generally recommend as much for some leniency

[red umbra]

I might stick with double fav setup but 110 ER on itto tbh

[patent galleon]

how many particles is Itto's E? 3-4?

[reef stump]

Especially with Bosses that drop no particles and smack your constructs

SHould be 3-4 but we don't know the exatc ratio afaik

so I went with 3.5 here

[red umbra]

was mostly asking bc u might have been able to drop a bit of ER for 2-3 extra subs

[reef stump]

But even 3 is whatever in worst case

[red umbra]

but makes sense to overcompensate ER

bc of rng particle gen

[reef stump]

If I assumed Quad Geo yeah, my Sheet only assumes Gorou + random geo Sub, don't have ZL shred in the buffs for instance

[red umbra]

makes sense

do u think quad geo would be bis

im kinda leaning towards it bc convenience

[reef stump]

If Abyss allows it yes

Iirc there were claims that Microwave has higher potential

But reliability of constructs is

questionable

You don't get around it entirely either way

but I'd think Quad Geo will simply be more consistent

[patent galleon]

none of the upcoming abyss look strictly anti-geo

even the 2.4 abyss with heralds/lectors only has them on the second half

so you would run Itto on the first half

the main issue i see with abyss is constructs vs bosses if anything

[ancient pecan]

bosses make geo constructs sad

[patent galleon]

lately abyss has always had bosses on at least one of the floors

[ancient pecan]

playing microwave against mango kenki feels like building a house in minecraft just for it to be destroyed 5s later by a creeper

but hey at least geo mc rocks deal damage when they break

[patent galleon]

iirc the 12-1-1 in 2.4 has the mechanical array returning, and 12-2-1 is a primo vishap

[red umbra]

just tried a mdps 3k defence albedo to simulate the itto tankiness experience

with 22k ZL shield

u have to actively try to take damage

literally nothing can break the shield

also what set is gorou looking for

[ancient pecan]

4p NO i think?

[patent galleon]

4pc NO

[red umbra]

makes sense

ER def crit?

[patent galleon]

thats what i would run

tho in quad Geo he may not need ER sands

if using Fav

[reef stump]

ER/Geo/Crit is better

But Gorou personal dmg is sus anyway

[red umbra]

is there any point in like

acknowledging

his dmg

[patent galleon]

i dont think so personally

[ancient pecan]

just give him 4p exile

[reef stump]

Not really

80k DPR at 30 perfect Subs Crowned

[rigid bay]

Give him 4 EoSF ez win

[red umbra]

lmfao

[patent galleon]

at least with NO he can help push Itto's dmg further, even if its not by much

[reef stump]

C6 btw

[red umbra]

ok why is my fav bow only r1 wtf

how bad does sac sound on gorou, mine is r5 whilst my fav bow is only r1

is there room for it in the rotation

[reef stump]

You already have trouble getting Itto rots down to 20s

But its better than having energy trouble

[red umbra]

im kinda iffy on 70% cr then 60% chance of fav particles

ill test both ig

[reef stump]

If you miss a Crit Sac will start to be better since you're taking the time anyway

might aswell take the second E cast then

[red umbra]

yeah that's my thinking tbh

how long is E cast time like half a second?

with r1 fav even if u crit u still have only 60% chance of fav proc which is kinda cringe

[reef stump]

smth like that

[dense ocean]

Hi, so for Itto's talent, that's: AA>Q>E right? And could 4pc bolide be advised for him if we don't have for now 4pc Opulent Dreams? Thank you!

[reef stump]

Bolide works if you don't have Husk, but definitely not worth farming at this point

[dense ocean]

Yeah you're right, thanks! So during the time we farm Husk, maybe playing him in broken set will be more interseting

[reef stump]

Can work on it step by step, Husk 2p is a start

If you have leftover 2pc Petra that can fill in

otherwise just rainbow till you have a complete Husk

[dense ocean]

Thanks for you answer!

[rigid bay]

Solution to a problem;
Just steal my Noelle's entire set and weapon till Itto can get his 4P Husk going

[reef stump]

Thats ofc an option if you have a well built Noelle

Although hardly better than a Rainbow Set should that Noelle Set be Glad

[steep marsh]

Im gonna probably run the set im running on my Albedo right now

[unique rover]

What will be zl's set in full on geo?

Contemplating if 4p totm buff gives more than personal dmg

[charred crag]

Either 4tom or 2AP with 2NO/glad/tom/shime, hard to go wrong - but if you have a 4tom built for dmg the shield strength part of the buff is nice for comfort even though the atk buff is minor for itto.

You shouldn't need to build anywhere near black tassel+HP/HP/HP 4tom, but if you have crit/geo/HP 4tom with homa for instance you won't ever worry about shield breaking and still do decent support damage

Whereas something like crit/geo/atk 2AP2NO with deathmatch might be on the more fragile side of things and you don't want to lose shield shred/geo resonance uptime. That's my take anyway

[ancient pecan]

in mono geo ZL should go ADC imo you have a couple constructs to resonate with his pillar, some geo buffs and your on field units have the def to compensate for the weaker shield
4p ToM is probably best but 2p petra + 2p ToM/18%atk should be good too

[charred crag]

It's not the most scientific approach, but I have a
221CV 2AP2NO crit/geo/HP set
216CV 2AP2shime crit/geo/atk set
160CV 4Tom crit/geo/HP set
All with homa, and I find the 4tom most comfortable and the 2shime least comfortable.

The damage range between the three isn't hugely significant but it isn't completely negligible

(top being 4tom bottom being 2NO)

[ancient pecan]

yea, it's probably within substat range
basically the set with the most CV is the best
4p ToM would be ideal but as a 4p it's kinda hard to get

[charred crag]

Resonance damage isn't very far off either, though it adds up

But 4tom shield is unbreakable whereas the ADC one can break if you're facetanking. Just my take xD itto only gets ~2-3% dmg from 4ToM or 4NO buffs iirc, but geo resonance+zhong shield shred is worth a good chunk and I don't see possibly losing that during itto Q uptime for a little more zhong personal damage being a practical trade. You make a good point on high def carries, just itto -res and perhaps SS passive make me leery towards atk sands zhong

[reef stump]

Generally HP Sands, especially with Homa, are relatively cheap for the amount of shield you get out of them.

[charred crag]

Always considering zhong with homa might be coloring my impression lol

Also the lower CV on my 4tom set is because I have a lot of HP subs

(if this makes a difference, if not sorry for spamming sets of 3 images)

[reef stump]

Homa isn't super important for that. Its primarily just obviously more powerful but still within reason

In the Zl Calcs I did:

R5 DM Q: ATK Sands: 97k HP Sands: 94k
R1 Homa Q: ATK Sands: 108k HP Sands: 104k

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KcVbb8Jin8fIxwZM_WLLLsusmiMbkpOZ7QcCWxS6iOY/edit#gid=872071280

[charred crag]

My zhong is 80/80 with T8 but whew, didn't expect your calc to be so out ahead on damage than what I realistically get considering my sets are pretty damn good haha

[reef stump]

Thats 220 CV +10 ATK% Subs and I added in C6 Gorou

[charred crag]

Ah, gorou. I do have 220cv lol

[reef stump]

W/o Gorou:

R5 DM 80k / 77k
R1 Homa 88.8k / 86k

[charred crag]

Much closer to my 79k/75k. Atk vs HP/NO vs shime

[reef stump]

Set in the Calc is NO/Petra

Point is just, HP Sands can be a very efficient Dmg to Shield trade-off

[charred crag]

79k is my 2AP2NO with 221CV and HP sands, but yeah. Sorry trying to juggle talking about 3 set comparisons

[reef stump]

DIfference for ToM will be more taxing on ZL himself but the group Buff makes more than up for it

[reef stump]

Makes sense that its still a bit lower as I'd assume you don't have 58% ATK in Artifact Substats

Thats also T10

[charred crag]

Yeah I assume what I'll be able to achieve is lower because most calcs use between semi- and very-unrealistic substat assumptions (to show peak performance), I was just thrown off by c6 gorou there because that was a lot higher than my already very high investment artis haha

[reef stump]

Hehe, yeah those 15% Geo dmg and 40% CD are quite neat to have

The investment standard I use is basically supposed to show a non-refresh soft ceiling if you really want to push a unit.

[charred crag]

I'll be throwing between 190 and 200 wishes at the banner, fingers crossed for c6 gorou haha

If I get miraculously lucky I might try for the claymore, but r5 SS is definitely "fine"

[reef stump]

R5 SS is only about 4% behind R1 Redhorn

[charred crag]

Yep

[reef stump]

So Redhorn is just a luxury

[charred crag]

Definitely not planning for it, also not expecting c6 from a banner 4* on his first banner, but man it would be nice.

[reef stump]

Oh, for sure

Still waiting for another chance at C6 Sara

[charred crag]

I got my albedo some very mediocre 4HooD artis and with R2 spindle he's almost doing double what he did pre-patch, and I have 210 ER crit/geo/def 4NO with r5 fav bow for my future gorou(and an ER sands of that ends up not working out). I've prefarmed a lot of their mats, just have to be patient for better HooD sets.

[reef stump]

Grinding eternally for Artifatcs is what it always comes to in the end

Still not compeltely satisfied with my Raiden Set

[charred crag]

Mhm. Now that we know the stacking behavior of HooD for certain, how is the rotation looking for SS itto?
I'm assuming it isn't worth trying to take 9 seconds setting up supports in order to get max stats on the first rotation

[reef stump]

I don't think its worth taking the extra long setup for Max HooD; same for Albedo

But since Setup takes 6s you will have 2-3 HooD Stacks anyway

Rotation I have in mind currently is:

Gorou E Albedo E ZL Hold E (Q) Gorou Q Itto Q

[quaint locust]

Does fav codex ningguang sound like a good battery tool for itto?

[charred crag]

Albedo will be fine assuming you're prestacking SS on itto before starting, but yeah.
I was imagining something like:
Itto E>zhong hold E Q>gorou E>albedo E>gorou Q>itto Q E CA, but I'm not sure the setup time is long enough for Itto's E to come back up, even with zhong's Q taking approximately 400 years to land

[reef stump]

If you delay Albedo E so long you lose atleast 2 E procs

And ZL is 3.5s for both, Gorou is 1s by virtue of switch CD, ALbedo E another 1s bc switch cd

Even if we say 4s ZL

Its close, 8-9s till Itto Q animation finishes

You want Albedo E and Gorou E before ZL though to not lose ALbedo procs and get Gorou Buffs on ZLs stuff

[charred crag]

That's fair, I'm really adverse to not having a shield during the setup phase when things aren't being staggered

[reef stump]

Its 1.5s to 2s you're unprotected

Can theoretically start on ZL and split E and Q but that drags the setup out a bit

[charred crag]

Tbf gorou E also has stagger protection too

[ancient pecan]

but you will lose SS stacks

[charred crag]

When the comp arrives I'll give that rotation a shot, I'm just very used to starting with zhong as I already play mono geo a lot and having a shield up for harbinger albedo, SS Noelle and squishy ning in general is practical as far as rotation setup goes

[reef stump]

You're not on Itto unshielded and even if you do the E precast stuff its for one a Taunt and has 0.5s cast time

[charred crag]

Seriousness aside, wtb a def-scaling geo unit that can succ with a sinkhole/antlion pit type of Q.

[unique rover]

Maybe sumn like the geo effect of enemies

[charred crag]

Itto's taunt might be alright for some minor gathering but I see one of the potential downsides(other than elemental shields) is floors where ranged units spawn on opposite sides of the area*

Since this comp isn't going to have Ningguang's or Noelle's range. At least gorou Q isn't pure circle impact

[charred crag]

One thing though, I do see the gorou 15% geo dmg buff being worthwhile, but c6 gorou is 40% CD for geo damage only, yeah? From what we know of Sara C6 buff, that element-specific CD buff doesn't snapshot, so it should retroactively affect zhong resonance during it's 12s(realistically perma) uptime, yes?

[reef stump]

Yeah pillar resonance would get it post cast. Q cast not though

If you wanna skip Q situationally Zl hold e opener becomes more plausible

[charred crag]

Makes sense. adding additional time to the rotation to make sure itto E is back up and he's at max stacks may make very little sense from a realistic optimizing perspective, but not having max stacks is like nails on the chalkboard of my soul

[fossil roost]

Use the gorou hangout. I have 23k procs which increased to like 30k with gorou LOL

[quaint locust]

Aint rlly related to itto but how do u do strikethough text?

[charred crag]

~ x2 on either side

[quaint locust]

Aight thx

[charred crag]

and underscores and asterisks for bold, italics and underlines

[quaint locust]

||hooooly shiiiiiiiiiit||

Damn it didnt go bold

[stoic wagon]

why NO on gorou? does it neccesarily benefit itto?

[patent galleon]

Itto still scales with attack, even if not by much.

[stoic wagon]

hmm

even with atk, itll benefit his burst, yes?

[unique rover]

no

but it helps others at least

since his personal dmg is quite bad

[stoic wagon]

hm okay

[rigid bay]

All this talk about optimizing Zhongli's build for Itto, meanwhile here I sweat without Homa staff

[unique rover]

I have him in fav lance

[sharp sinew]

You guys have Zhongli?

[storm tulip]

you run 4 tom adc

it is better than hp/geo/crit from a different sset

28k hp zhong shield with 4pc tom and geo resonance at talent 9 has 20k effective health shield

for itto compared to a regular carry that is around 40k effective hp due to defense differences

this is with atk/damage/crit

[sharp sinew]

Itto has 27.6 cr at lvl90 right?

[storm tulip]

no

24.2

ascension for crit rate is 19.2% crit rate + 5% base

[sharp sinew]

Oh thanks, ig that + SS will be good, just gotta get 10% more

[stoic wagon]

whats adc 😭

[near isle]

attack, elemental damage (geo), crit

[stoic wagon]

OH

i see LMAO

[sharp sinew]

attack damage carry

[low valve]

so is adc zhongli better for itto comp or is hp/hp/hp

running 4 pc millelith

id assume adc cus ittos def is insane anyway

but is there an alternative set i could run on zhongli? because atk% increase like that isnt that good for itto

[unique rover]

You don't need more hp

So adc is better for small dmg

That's all I can say

[rigid bay]

While it is statistically sound to have him built more on damage side, I personally won't. Largely because my Zhongli also get passed to my other teams often (especially with Ningguang) and that would mean needing to change his set way too often. Sure, the time would be miniscule initially, but it'd add up largely overtime and end up wasting my time. This especially holds true for any case where I'll have to face enemies that requires hard counter elements such as the Herald and Lectors, and therefore, needing to replace Zhongli out with an element counter.

If I had a Homa Staff, I could reconsider especially with my Zhongli having C2 and all, hence negating the need to use his held E at all, but as of right now, not so much. Of course, as I have mentioned that all this is personal preference for my own use case and is not logically sound when it comes to damage performance, but I personally value unbreakable shield and consistency a lot more than extra damage that comes from Zhongli's shield and meteor.

Just wanted to put this out before this channel becomes an echo chamber, essentially. You can choose how you want to play, the style you wish to play. People suggest the best route to take, the most optimized and best way to build things, but at the end of the day, it's your game. Spice it how you want, enjoy it how you will, listen to people's suggestions, and make it your own.

bruh i pressed enter too early

[halcyon glen]

Does it seem so far that Itto's scaling needs to be much higher to be able to accomodate all the buffs and albedo's E? (Putting down Gorou's E -> albedo E -> maybe bennet q -> Switch to Itto and go to town? since by then he will only have 6-8 seconds of everything being up.

[reef stump]

You can buff your Team via Gorou E and then use Gorou Q for Itto himself to give him nigh full Gorou Buff Uptime

[halcyon glen]

Would this be after bennet Q or just before it ?

[reef stump]

After if you wanna use both

[halcyon glen]

Im assuming based on the Gorou's constellation you would put them accordingly, so C6 Gorou will most likely be after bennet q ?

[reef stump]

You should pretty much always cast Gorou Q after Bennett Q since Bennett Q can last a little longer

[halcyon glen]

Based on previous experiences, at this point we should not expect any changes to Itto until release correct?

[reef stump]

Unlikely, yes

[halcyon glen]

Would it be possible to compare his optimal team right now with current teams such as Morgana, National, etc ?

Theoretically ofc

[reef stump]

Theoretically C0 Itto should co-exist just fine alongside a lot of other C0 5* DPS.

The numbers on paper are there, just gotta see how he realizes them

[halcyon glen]

When you say the numbers are there, is he pulling similar numbers to other teams or just slightly less ?

[reef stump]

Can't say exactly where he'd be at, especially given that not all Meta Teams have the same output or niche.

[halcyon glen]

noted

[storm urchin]

hi, can somebody share again..
what should artefact build I do for Itto?

[rigid bay]

As of currently, it's considered best to just go for Husk of Opulent 4P

If you had a properly built Noelle before this who uses 4RB, you can take that set off hers for temporary use on Itto, but he'll do better with the 4P Husk

Don't do 4Glad if that's what you Noelle had previously...

[storm urchin]

noted, Husk of Opulent 4P..

and, how about main stat in sand and goblet??

[languid linden]

i know it's not the place for gorou but still (geo chara advisor)
i want ask about gorou ? what stat did good on him ER/DEF?

[low valve]

def/geo/crit

[hexed ridge]

Your most important priority on Gorou should be reaching his ER threshold which should be somewhere around 200%, possibly less depending on your exact team comp.

What you do afterwards doesn‘t really matter. Theoretically you‘d want to optimize crit for the highest damage possible, but Gorou‘s damage is so negligible that it doesn‘t really make sense investing in him

If you ask me, I‘d stack ER, get a solid crit rate for reliable Favonius procs and then invest the rest into defense unless you really have some spare crit pieces & a geo goblet for him that nobody else needs

[languid linden]

if u advice me with ER one? what set if you can choose?
4 set husk or 4 set emblem fate

i got 4 set emblem arte while back then idk how good on gorou

[hexed ridge]

He doesn‘t do particularly well with any set. You can run 4p Noblesse to slightly buff Itto/Noelle, you can run 4p Husk to try and maximize his damage and C4 healing or if you don‘t have any of those, you can do 2p Emblem 2p Husk or something along those lines

I wouldn‘t worry too much about his sets, they‘re honestly all quite bad on him

[languid linden]

oh ok i will see how much cons on gorou while i pull for him to be better question

[grizzled kestrel]

This makes me not want to pull Itto :(
I don't want to farm this new set when Noelle already has a very good 4p glad
I'm not even done with ESF farming, and I've been at it since it's out...

[atomic sundial]

it's okay

get on the grind slowly and you'll get there

[worn knot]

Whats the opinion on Itto Zhongli Gorou team?

Or would Albedo be better instead of Zhongli if i had to choose

[reef stump]

In general I'd recommend ZL over Albedo but both would likely be optimal.

Having a shield for Itto is paramount. There might be a case for letting Itto get by with Crystallize but I'm not quite convinced it will be enough for every situation. And ZL is just the best shielder for Itto by a loooong shot.

[worn knot]

Would there be ER issues with Zhongli instead of Albedo?

[reef stump]

Unless you completely miss with ZLs Pillars it should be no issue. Itto seems to do fine in most Triple Geo Setups, needing up to 130% ER.

[worn knot]

Thank you very much!

[glad violet]

Can you use def goblet on Itto with R5 ss

You can, right? I'm guessing.

Cause he has 24% damage bonus from the set, 50 from SS, AND 35% DMG bonus from def to his autos during burst

Seems like a lot

[real phoenix]

i'm pretty sure Geo goblet still does more

[glad violet]

Probably marginal like Xiao or Raiden ? Or big enough a difference to look for a geo goblet

[real phoenix]

i don't think there are calcs for a DEF/DEF/Crit itto afaik, w/ R5 SS

[storm tulip]

that is not dmg bonus

it is extra scaling from defense

it is just a bit extra damage

[glad violet]

Which one

The 35% on his autos ?

[real phoenix]

his A4, and it's only to his SCAs

[glad violet]

Hmm

Cause sometimes the optimizer gives me ATK cups on units that use R5 stringless

And I know razor mains suggest atk cup on razor on as r1

So I find it highly probable that itto with ssr5 can use a def cup

Just don't have the math skills unfortunately

[storm tulip]

it is probably fine, without gorou on the comp, not sure with him, let me check that real quick

it is around 7-10% worse depending if gorou is on the comp or not and noblesse/tom buffs, so I wouldnt think it is worth running at all

it is never going to be better, it is just usable as a placeholder until you find a correct piece pretty much, only with serpent spine

[reef stump]

Difference shouldn't be as small as for Xiao as not the entirety of Itto's dmg comes from DEF. He still has ~1k Base ATK before the DEF conversion

[nocturne sorrel]

don't need math skills when you can plug all your artis into the optimizer

[charred crag]

did anyone consider sac GS on itto? It's definitely not going to be on the same tier as R5 SS, but double ushi(maybe 3x in a burst window?) on a 565 weapon with enough ER to cover all his needs and 3* (if sac recast counts as ushi leaving) stacks of CA charges after casting burst

[real phoenix]

yes, raikh has calced it

[charred crag]

wish this thread had some of those spreadsheets pinned lol

[reef stump]

I have some Calcs on it with an adjusted rotation for it. Its sadly not very outstanding being handily beaten by WB and Blackcliff.

I'm currently working on a fairly comprehensive Weapon Sheet for Itto

Should be done in 1-2 hours

[charred crag]

ah well

[real phoenix]

is it a different sheet or still the "[WIP] Raikh's Updated Itto...?"

[reef stump]

Yep, making a new one with more weapons and a section for C0 Gorou.

[real phoenix]

d'you think that's worth pinning here once it's sent since this thread is gonna be dissolved soon?

[reef stump]

Not sure when it will be dissolved. If its still up till his release thats probably worthwhile since its still 2 weeks and people are starting to pre-farm

[real phoenix]

true

[storm tulip]

it is not great but should you want to run itto in a 2 man geo comp only it is a good option (if he gens energy during q) because of the increasing ER requirements on itto on 2 geo only

[glad violet]

Thanks bro! Guess it'll be used until I get better pieces

[lunar glen]

I wanted to know, for a friend what would be the damage gain, in a Noelle C6/Zhongli/Albedo/Gorou vs. Itto C0/Zhongli/Albedo/Gorou

[reef stump]

Its predicted that C0 Itto will do vastly more damage than C6 Noelle, in the 50% range. This is not accounting for Noelle's potentially better AoE coverage. Largely I'd expect a 20-30% Team DPS increase for Itto over Noelle in that particular comp, assuming both Albedo and ZL are invested and contribute dmg.

[lunar glen]

His Zhongli and Albedo are hyper invested although he just got Albedo so he runs 2NO/2AP with Harbinger, so he'll have to work on that. But would Gorou as a support contribute more to the team with 4NO, 4HoOD or 2 Husk/2 Defender's Will?

[thorn heron]

is r1 serpent spine better than r5 white?

[reef stump]

NO is the safest bet. His Buffs do not scale with his Stats, so all you can do is either run a Support Set or build his own damage. Given his own dmg being abysmal even when being well invested, NO, despite only having a small impact on Itto, likely still beats what you can do for Gorou's own dmg

[reef stump]

Yes

[whole juniper]

So, by the time Itto is here I'll have something like 110 pulls saved up (and guaranteed focus). My plan is to run Itto/Gorou (however many constellations I get) and c6 Ning (as burst switch-in since she's my most invested character). I don't have Albedo or ZL. What'd be a good fourth character for this team, or is it open enough to just go with what shields I want to break?

Atm I'm running Diona with Ning pretty much constantly, would she be a good 4th for shield and heals?

[reef stump]

Your 4th slot should be something that provides you with a shield either by being a shielder or by providing a reliable Aura for Crystallize. But thats the only restriction which leaves you with a whole bunch of options

[whole juniper]

Yeah that's why I'm thinking Diona (good shield, offers crystallize and also heals). But I wanted to check if there was some mandatory buffer like bennett or so before deciding

[storm tulip]

4 NO on gorou for just itto beats 4 HOOD on gorou in terms of team dps contribution by almost double, but since it is gorou damage we are talking about it is only around a 20k difference on a rotation that is well above 1 million damage though, so the overall impact is low

[languid linden]

im still waiting

[reef stump]

It took a bit longer but you didn't wait in vain

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jYl7bnHHKCRjjx9YXamgPoyAUtpcM-4wkX5ojyLTQ4s/edit#gid=1730277194

@real phoenix There it is

[real phoenix]

top quality

[reef stump]

Thanks, I added a mention for you, since you provided the Frame Counts I used for the Rots in the Sheet

[languid linden]

damn that was nice

[reef stump]

And generally. Everyone can feel free to give Feedback or ask questions. Should some questions be accordingly relevant I will add them to the FAQ

[real phoenix]

hopefully release itto doesn't stray too far

[languid linden]

sadly i can't get r5 black cliff
to change my r5 whiteblind

[reef stump]

Blackcliff with Stacks is not really reliable

[storm tulip]

i wouldnt recommend r5 blackcliff regardless

[reef stump]

I added it for completions sake

[storm tulip]

the times where you can proc it are significantly less than the times where you get 0 stacks

[reef stump]

But usually the hardets content in particular doesn't allow you to get or leverage Stacks

[storm tulip]

yeah

[atomic sundial]

okay so I guess I won't get the blackcliff after all

[reef stump]

But thats a good point actually. Will add that to the FAQ, since its only up there under special conditions

[atomic sundial]

thanks Raikh

[real phoenix]

raikh itto pre-tc mvp

[storm tulip]

take upcoming 2.4 abyss for example, 1st half blackcliff passive is basically useless throughout 12-1 and actually useless in 12-2, second half has very low value in 12-2 and 12-3

[reef stump]

Blackcliff section added

[storm urchin]

Hi, does Itto keep the stacks when he switched out to another Character?

[real phoenix]

considering they last 60s, he probably does

[storm urchin]

tyvm..

[turbid dagger]

Gonna be real here. Why is there no Gorou thread?

[nocturne sorrel]

gorou press E, then gorou press Q

[ornate moss]

best itto team w/o zhongli would be itto albedo gorou yunjin right?

[nocturne sorrel]

end of thread

[onyx junco]

he is a 4* male

[turbid dagger]

If I accidentally pull Itto, would my Noelle comp I'm working towards still work (Albedo Gorou Fischl)?

Or is it gonna need a dedicated shielder/healer? I know C4 Gorou heals and he auto activates elemental shields, but yeah...

[atomic sundial]

there used to be one at the very beginning but it got wiped I guess

[red umbra]

@late crater

Here

[late crater]

what is so concerning

[late crater]

is there an issue?

[red umbra]

What

[late crater]

oh

[red umbra]

Oh im dumb

[late crater]

what is your request

[red umbra]

I mistook you for another person

LOL

[late crater]

lmaooo

it’s allg

[lavish flint]

I wanna run him without mono geo

[red umbra]

@lavish flint here

[lavish flint]

hi

[late crater]

thought there was something wrong

mb

[lavish flint]

Itto zhong comps pls

[still isle]

those 2 plus anyone else... tho itto energy gonna suffer so ur gonna need a geo batt

[atomic sundial]

you can just

itto zhong gorou flex

[lavish flint]

Fuck it imma just pull for ganyu

Geo is cring

[hallow lark]

I have so many qinxin flowers sitting in my inventory for nothing

[languid linden]

sadly gorou q is just buff not counted as shield

[crystal spindle]

Zhongly is a energy deficit ain't it? Wouldn't Itto, gorou albedo + healer ninguang or a bennet be better?

[storm tulip]

no, he is not

in fact bennet is way worse energy wise

you need to think about rotation times and how many abilities you can cast in them, you can cast 1 E from your supports at best within a well executed rotation, turret energy is way better in those scenarios than instant

also

you need a shield

[crystal spindle]

For geo res, true

[sharp sinew]

65:180 ratio for Itto is good right?

I just finished farming his set rn

[thorn heron]

What’s best set for dmg Zhong in itto comp, since I don’t think I needa worry about shied that much, right . As high def will make it stronger

[patent galleon]

ToM

HP/Geo/Crit

[fickle mango]

hi, how scuffed is running itto without gorou? (Example: Itto, Ning, Diona fav, Rosaria fav). Just in case of the odd chance that I somehow don't get Gorou while rolling for Itto.

[zenith aurora]

I think the current ZL comp doesn’t run gorou

[languid linden]

maybe 2 geo + 2 pyro will be better than 2 cryo without hydro for freeze comp

[hallow lark]

does yunjin work with itto?

[zenith aurora]

It’s basically microwave creating a fighting area for itto to go hammer time

[red umbra]

Itto doesnt really care about atk

[red umbra]

Itto is more of a CA spammer

[azure light]

whats the current consensus on the optimal team for itto? (without c6 gorou cause i aint gonna get that)

[teal sable]

not enough to justify building him with atk in mind, but more atk is always nice. it's 184 extra atk with serpent/whiteblind, a little more with redhorn.

[red umbra]

What pyros do you run with him then

[teal sable]

idk lmao that's not the point

[red umbra]

Huh

[red umbra]

.

[teal sable]

if ur other team doesn't use Bennett, you can use him

• xiangling if you built her and don't want her to go to waste

[turbid dagger]

Why do you need Healer Ningguang? Why not healer Gorou?

[reef stump]

Double Geo Double Pyro is really brutal on ER reqs in an Itto comp

[charred crag]

has/did anyone do calcs on how far behind 2HooD2AP is from 4Hood at 2stack, 3stack and 4stack?

I assume even 2stack 12 def% + 12 geo% > 15 geo%, but I'm not sure by how much.
Even if you can only start a rotation with 2 stacks on itto, you'll build to 4 stacks quickly and the geo% portion will at least be reflected in your damage even if the def conversion snapshotted lower, so 4Hood is always going to be better, but with the amount of def% and dmg% itto is going to be getting from other and external sources it's a little hard to gauge the relative value.

[teal sable]

why would you even start with less than 4

you just have to wait 12sc i think

[languid linden]

well i just say better 2 pyro than 2 cryo
because 2 cryo seem can't work together with 2 geo.
well better than nothing huh

[reef stump]

SS

[teal sable]

oh 😒

[reef stump]

But like having 2-3 Stacks on the first rot is fairly inconsequential

you get the last 1-2 Stacks during the rot, meaning the Geo dmg% is effectively covered

so you only miss 6-12% DEF

[grizzled kestrel]

Why wouldn't Cryo resonance work ?

[reef stump]

Since I finally got my Itto Calcs to my more flexible Template, I took a look

[charred crag]

very nice

[languid linden]

nah its just on my own perspective i merely see what resonance will benefit on itto

i think ppl have own desire to choose any resonance on his team

[charred crag]

having 2 stacks on a first rotation may be numerically inconsequential, but it's like nails on the chalkboard of my minmaxing soul xD That being said I'm never going to get optimal subs and mono geo (esp the current noelle/ning(/gmc)/zhong/albedo) is by its very nature very unga bunga so I was just looking for some context of the consequences. 2Hood2AP is a bit further behind on overall damage than I would have thought tbh

[reef stump]

Theoretically its possible to do an extended start-up rotation that includes opening with Itto E to gain some Stacks and then do a 8-10s Support rotation that includes resnapping Albedo for HooD Stacks etc.
Its just that I'm not quite convinced that its worthwhile doing. Rotation extensions are always deceptively expensive and Itto is already fairly tight in that department after considering hitlag extension. Maybe there are scenarios where you wanna do that in practice, gotta see when he is out.

[charred crag]

yeah we talked about it a few days ago haha. Whether or not it's worthwhile, I plan to try to do it unless I end up getting C1 and it wastes several CA stacks. I'm 30 pity deep into 50/50 and I plan on throwing an additional ~200 at the banner so C1 is fairly likely as an incidental result

I'm stressing over how many gorou cons I'm likely to get/how many I actually do get haha

[patent galleon]

actually ive wondered about Itto's C1, will it just allow him to get more swings when doing his CA? since it gives him stacks during his Ult. or are the stacks simply counted towards his next CA?

i assume they are just counted to the next CA

[charred crag]

if you gain stacks in the middle of executing a CA-chain, they'll be used up as they come/you continue doing the combo slash until you run out and do the big final slash, based on what I saw from a video

[patent galleon]

so assuming you go into a CA soon after his Q with C1 he would just consume those added stacks as they are added?

[charred crag]

afaik, yes. Can't speak with absolute certainty though.

[reef stump]

It should work like that, yeah. We have seen extended SCA combos from C6

[charred crag]

Actually makes it kind of difficult to know how many stacks you'll be "wasting"/gaining stacks over the cap of 5 if you're trying to fit 2 Es in a Q rotation at C1, considering the cast time/startup time of CAs. Ushi has a big ratio so should be worth always trying to fit in 2.

[reef stump]

Unless Ushi gets smacked all the time you don't actually waste Stacks with C1

Since

Ushi is 2 w/o getting hit

And C1 gives you 2 on cast

Thats 4

the other 3 Stacks from C1 should be delayed enough to keep spending before you overcap

nvm the extra 1 that comes from the first E cast in Q

[charred crag]

start with 0 (assuming you didn't precast ushi at the start)
Cast Q, 2
Cast Ushi, 3
Start your CA chain immediately after casting ushi, hopefully within the 1sec delay window (staggering stuff around ushi and making it unlikely that ushi is going to get hit) > 4, 5, 6. As long as you've used the first stack before 2.5 seconds after casting Q you shouldn't have wasted any. Just hoping the Q animation doesn't count toward that lol.
I doubt the CA chain itself lasts the 6 seconds for ushi to expire and grant a 7th stack

[reef stump]

SCA5 takes around 3s

potentially even a little less

unless extreme hitlag

[charred crag]

inb4 wood shield mitachurls

[reef stump]

A single SCA Slash ~0.5s

its pretty damn quick

[charred crag]

scaling atk speed too

[reef stump]

Think the fastest hitlag SCA slash we had was 23-24 frames

[red umbra]

SCA5 is 4CAs plus final slash right?

not 5 CAs

[reef stump]

Yep

[red umbra]

figures

[charred crag]

now I'm wondering if you can get off/trigger a final slash in between C1 stack grants lol

[reef stump]

I did some timelines for C1 stuff pretty early on

and with enough Ushi hits or Stacks from an earlier E

You can get to SCA8-9

while generating 1 Stack after that still

[whole juniper]

Is there a rough idea of how c0 Itto dps will compare to c0 Eula dps?

[charred crag]

I'm assuming the ~3s includes the initial forward hop/dash/windup time

[whole juniper]

Still not quite completely sure which one to pull for, both seem fun to play

[charred crag]

do you like extreme delayed gratification of a massively backloaded Q nuke that may or may not be 70-90% overkill or miss targets entirely? If so, eula very fun to play

[whole juniper]

I do, but I also like the idea of more geo, def stacked to the skies and dugtrio

[languid linden]

eula seem win with on the burst

[reef stump]

I haven't calced Eula Teams. But with regards to personal dmg I get higher potential on Itto. At base they seem pretty same-y on paper to me, but Itto has more effective ways to scale his dmg currently.
But I don't dare make a call on Team performance and we still gotta see how Itto translates from paper into practice

[charred crag]

they really do eula dirty with her test map lol

[reef stump]

Ah, wait, didn't remove all shred correctly so SC Eula would even be a bit behind Geo Reso Itto. Still not indicative of Team Performance though

[whole juniper]

Good enough for me - since Ning is my most built character I want gorou anyway and triple geo seems fun

[red umbra]

i doubt either of them have particularly stellar team dmg in comparison to solo output tbh

ig eula raiden might

[reef stump]

The prospect for Dugtrio + ZL isn't that bad tbh. Albedo in that environment is a very respectable Sub DPS and ZL can get some Pillar Resonance dmg in given Ushi is a construct and Albedo Flower is aswell.

Its certainly not a Xiao situation where Itto is 90% of the dmg, unless you run Gorou/ZL/Ben

[red umbra]

Hmm yeah u have zl built for damage ig

[onyx junco]

doesn't eula raiden extend rotations?

[red umbra]

Yeah I just meant eula raiden would mean eula is a relatively lower portion of team dmg

[reef stump]

Thats what I have for ZL Dugtrio right now at my Investment Standard. NOT KQM Standards, before any comparisons are drawn here.

Thats w/o Albedo and ZL using their Bursts. Albedo's being flat out not worth it. ZL barely being a loss w/o C2 but worth it once it hits a single target more on average than Itto does.

Probably have to shave some dmg off from Itto once we get Buff Uptimes with hitlag and such since I currently assume 100%, which might not be quite likely. So take a 5-10% margin on Itto's dmg.

[red umbra]

Ooo nice

ZL barely being a loss isn’t a bad thing tbh when u factor in qol and aoe

Lots of mobile enemies nowadays so the petrify is p welcome

Also 71k dps is really damn good

Oh wait it’s not kqm standard

But still

[reef stump]

Its basically comparable to what I get for my C0 RaiFIsh/Hyper Raiden Ballparks. Just in sustained damage form rather than bursty

[red umbra]

Yeah

He seems like a strong consistency pick

[onyx junco]

what is kqm standard?

[red umbra]

Like xiao but with tankiness and low opportunity cost