Itto Thread

[storm tulip]

I forgot sac gsword

is 44 base

lmao, my bad

[reef stump]

Not much but probably makes up the difference roughly

[storm tulip]

yeah

637k sac now

so yeah around 5%

[reef stump]

I guess in some obscure Teams where Itto ER reqs are higher it can match the 2

[storm tulip]

is what I'd say is the difference

[reef stump]

Yep

[storm tulip]

I think the only other weapon worth exploring is lithic blade

I just dont know for sure in what comp

it would have to be itto/zhong/beidou/some liyue character here

just not sure who it could be or how worth it could even be

[reef stump]

Getting more than 2 Liyue is difficult

[storm tulip]

ye

liyue has all the good dps and subdps

while all the good supports are mond/ina

[reef stump]

Itto/ZL/XL/Ben would probably be best case

But thats still 2

[storm tulip]

it is still 22% atk + substat and 14% crit rate

whcih is not bad

just doubt it is better than whiteblind is the big thing

[reef stump]

Itto/ZL/Gorou or Albedo/XQ would also work I guess

Yeah

unless you could feasibly run 3/4 I don't think it catches up

its still very ATK heavy

Guess for the weapon comparison I can throw WGS in to show that its a nono

[storm tulip]

668k for me

using c5 benny mist/aquila vs c5 gorou

[reef stump]

Thats surpisingly good

[storm tulip]

yeah it is around the same

which I expected

but ER wise

the team is MUCH worse

[reef stump]

for sure

[storm tulip]

so itto's damage would take a hit for sure due to it

[reef stump]

So among 4*s there is basically nothing more worth considering

For 5* cope WGS/Unforged/Pride, but they are basically jsut a showcase of why you shouldn't use them

[storm tulip]

honestly it is better than I expected, it is using fav zhong and fav beidou, but you have bennet to offset beidou

wait my bennet is funneling into itto forgot to change

[reef stump]

Team DPS probably still suffers quite harshly

[reef stump]

Thats more pain

[storm tulip]

yeah, but I think this would be an example of a flex team and well, sac gsword takes the crown here I guess

lithic looks better than whiteblind would, but blackcliff wins once it gets some stacks though, so lithic is niche at best

[reef stump]

Oh, have you checked XL over Beidou here?

Since that would also give Pyro Resonance, which is 3% Itto dmg or so.

Also less reliant on scenarios where Beidou works well

[storm tulip]

er better on supports, around the same on itto

681k personal dpr vs 667k blackcliff 0 stack/WBr5

this does require 2 fav spears though

which is the other issue

[reef stump]

How is it if XL uses Catch?

[storm tulip]

yikes

[reef stump]

ouch

So much for double Geo comps with respect to Team DPS

I guess the last option for Lithic would actually be Itto/ZL/Ning/Gorou

[storm tulip]

oh yeah

I forgot about ning

cause I intend to keep using mine as my other dps

[ancient pecan]

double geo double pyro is kinda bad imo

maybe try double electro instead?

[reef stump]

probably the best one anyway

[storm tulip]

but on another note

just use normals

actual just slightly better noelle

[ancient pecan]

this is why NAs got a buff
gotta use them to proc XQ

[reef stump]

Meanwhile my best combo uses N2 and N4 for like 3 XQ procs xD

or was it 4

I think it was 4

[storm tulip]

honestly, since this is 3 lithic now, even without bennet on the comp

645k

with just NA spam

and 2 ushis

[ancient pecan]

what about double cryo w/rosaria? can the extra crit make a difference?

double cryo also lets you use diona and replace ZL with albedo

[storm tulip]

well, I'm just trying to see if there is a line for lithic blade to ever be playable,not if there are other comps

[ancient pecan]

oh i dunno i don't think lithic blade is a good idea

[reef stump]

645k for NA spam sounds super high. I have NA Spam at 618k with Redhorn

3x N4D + 2x E

[storm tulip]

yeah I was doublechecking it now cause I also assumed I fucked up somewhere

and I had 2*2 ushi casts, I grabbed the wrong cell

505k

just go triple fav and do regular rotation, who says it will go wrong with enemies flying out of range due to overload, certainly not me

yeah lithic is unplayable

[reef stump]

Just get 300% Er on everybody and it will be fine

[storm tulip]

well, 3rd best option if you dont have albedo I guess

since you run zhong/ning/itto/gorou then

[reef stump]

Yeah

So I'll include 2 Stack Lithic

since thats technically doable

[storm tulip]

yeah it is just a more specific situation

well, for those without both albedo and zhong it is less specific

since you get to run 3 liyue then

also Raikh have you done any calcs for c6 lisa (or I guess at least c4 lisa) in the comp?

[reef stump]

C4 Lisa is problematic

since her quadratic sclaing has an insanely small range

So C4 is just "Hey your Q actually does AoE dmg now"

w/o grouping

[storm tulip]

yeah it is more so the fact it does AoE

[reef stump]

T12 would be 2120% MV on Q

Haven't calced her yet

But I don't think the dmg will be very rosy after her ER reqs in that comp, pun intended

[storm tulip]

Er wise it is the same as other chars tbh

[reef stump]

Casting E for energy also takes half a year

[storm tulip]

but she does have the defense shred

[storm tulip]

1.9 seconds

[reef stump]

shred is nice, true

[storm tulip]

it is just slightly higher than zhong shield

[reef stump]

I guess I calc her when I go for the Team approximations

Since I wanted to do a rough overview anyway

So I have a moderate weapon comparison, Cons evaluation and Team overview

[storm tulip]

I was thinking of her mainly because you get better crystallize uptime and the shred kinda makes up for ER requirements

[reef stump]

Shred also has 25s uptime for C2 stuffs

[storm tulip]

and at c4 and then c6 she actually does damage

the issue is more so getting her up to that point constellation wise

but for those lucky enough to have her I think it is a consideration

[storm tulip]

yeah

[rigid dome]

what should be the talent we focus on leveling first for itto and gorou

[real phoenix]

gorou is Skill > Burst
Itto is NA ≥ Burst > Skill i think

[alpine crown]

skill>burst prob

its a big chunk of his dmg

[red umbra]

https://youtu.be/_YQRFhuICsU
Mihoyo so smart with 5 star weapons and characters these days

[reef stump]

Just clicking through some parts.
Does he state what his rotation assumptions are?

Bc R1 Redhorn being 20% above R5 SS is not normal

[nocturne sorrel]

that sounds wonky as hell

[reef stump]

Only way to get that high figures is ignoring E basically

Which would nuke your dmg pretty hard

[nocturne sorrel]

not even that

maybe a cold start with ss ramping up over a 20s rota would be 15% worse overall

[reef stump]

He stated that he was assuming full SS uptime form the snippets I watched and read

[nocturne sorrel]

this is why tc videos suck

impossible to skip to specific parts with relevant details

[slim storm]

That does sound very wonky

Btw raikh have you put together a calculator for itto yet

I've made three so far which give similar results, and I just wanted to cross-check with someone else

[red umbra]

Just get redhorn

[spark aurora]

is there a link to one of em? i wanna use it

[reef stump]

Not a full fledged Calculator, but I can look into making one. The way I set up my Calcs is halfway there anyway.
Thats what I have right now:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XIbjWO2W0FSxHlgJLKzADlbV_5jpIBYRcp2sm53Vy_0/edit#gid=0

[slim storm]

Ah I need to update redhorn

I'll send it once I fix that

[spark aurora]

too poor for redhorn

[spark aurora]

thanks

[red umbra]

Save for rerun

[slim storm]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QAEuI3ihuUpJa5_1h3mZANbrKjh_Kw6BI3gN8GzA2QM/edit#gid=0

[spark aurora]

[nocturne sorrel]

reminded me to update itto's stats and redhorn's latest round of buffs

redhorn continually creeping toward "better than ss by a non-trivial amount"

calc if anyone wants to double check https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Amez07c7nYaqhG8520HcgJhlQ5hd6kVwtFkscJ8Z94Q/edit?usp=sharing

[storm tulip]

It is only 1 ushi cast from what I gathered way back and a really lowball rotation combo wise in general

His c2 vs c0 gorou assumptions are way off too since doesnt account for gorou buff lasting for 2 extra seconds after exiting field etc.

Basically just ignore the video, the assumptions made are wonky, combo is wonky

[tidal violet]

Hello. Is R5 WB that bad for Itto?

[teal sable]

No, it's his 3rd best weapon.

[worldly mango]

Only beaten by SS and Redhorn

[teal sable]

And his best F2P option

[storm tulip]

it gets beaten by blackcliff

if blackcliff ever gets a single stack

whiteblind cant really be stacked in a proper rotation is the issue with it

r5 whiteblind = r1 blackcliff 0 stack

so if you dont want to get blackcliff dont, just save the starglitter

but in a proper rotation whiteblind is not his 3rd best weapon

[reef stump]

Unless Itto's DEF conversion should be dynamic which we have no precedent for

[nocturne sorrel]

that's not what i'm getting, same settings as the other comparison chart above

even with no def stacks snapshotted into ult (only 4 atk stacks that can be built after) whiteblind matches blackcliff

[reef stump]

If Itto snaps his DEF conversion like Noelle you will never have 4 DEF Stacks

And with 1 DEF 4 ATK 0 Stack Blackcliff is like 1.5% behind

But since thats still not accounting for WB ramping up first

[nocturne sorrel]

yes that's what i got

[reef stump]

Its basically equivalent

in practice

And well once you start getting Blackcliff Stacks it would actually pull ahead

[spark aurora]

i pray

[storm tulip]

yeah in practice it is equivalent because blackcliff 0 stack damage is always there off the bat

and whiteblind ramps up throughout initial hit

for example first ushi cast suffers a lot

because at most you have 1 whiteblind stack

[storm tulip]

also I just dont get your point, you told me you werent getting the same as me but then showed me math that told me you were getting the same as me

[nocturne sorrel]

thought you meant whiteblind with def snapshot

[storm tulip]

yeah no, it is not pratical

[nocturne sorrel]

for an 8% gain it's probably worth spending 1s on itto somewhere to keep stacks up between rounds

[storm tulip]

I did my clacs with 1 stack snapshotted and then full attack stacks and full defense stacks for a4

[reef stump]

Simplified 1s rotation delays are 5% Team DPS lost on a 20s rotation. So the gain would be negligible for the effort at best, while being prone to errors that are much more negatively impactful

[storm tulip]

for me that extra second is around the same tbh

yeah like raikh said

[nocturne sorrel]

the 5% is exactly why i suggested it, and idk what kind of errors you forsee out of swap-hit-swap

[storm tulip]

yeah but it is not an 8% overall gain

it is a 5% teamdps loss

and an 8% itto gain only

so like best case scenario

it is equal

[reef stump]

Not every fight is a training dummy. You might need to reposition or are momentarily out of range which can make those Stacks drop regardless or force even more of an extension you could handle more elegantly otherwise.
Its hypothetical but given that the merit of doing it flawlessly is minimal I don't see the point

You also can't get around the first rotation

Like, I wouldn't say buy Blackcliff for sure if you already have R5 WB

[red umbra]

574k DPR?

[nocturne sorrel]

it's basically boiling down to arguing over being on different places on the minmax-to-practicality scale without specifying beforehand

i get pretty much the same from using shorter itto/raiden combos in my calcs

[red umbra]

Oh that's Noelle

[nocturne sorrel]

assumptions for mine, they tend to be less geared than other calcs

[red umbra]

Oh, 20 crit rolls

[nocturne sorrel]

it's around 195 cv, i'd be lucky to have that after spending the whole patch in the new domain

[ancient pecan]

ngl as a noelle player it's pretty tempting to roll for redhorn instead of itto
or at least to roll for redhorn first and then attempt to get itto

[rigid dome]

r1 ss or r1 wb better for itto?

[reef stump]

SS, by far

[signal oriole]

with 2.3 beta ending, i can't believe there aren't anymore itto buffs

[worldly mango]

Still possible for there to be changes in pre-load.
But I don't think we should expect there to be any.

Would be nice though

[reef stump]

Itto looks to be in a good place numerically under current assumptions

So I wouldn't have expected more changes

[charred crag]

What're gorou's cup/sands theorized to be, assuming 4NO and 90 fav bow? His damage doesn't look too significant, even factoring in his own self-buff and A4.
Wondering if he'd still want an ER sands, or possibly even a def cup over a geo cup + def sands to focus on his C4 heal (assuming you ever take damage if running with zhongli I guess)

[worldly mango]

Do you think he could do with some more particle generation?
Or would a buff of that kind be better fitted for Gorou?
Or maybe do they don't need it at all?

[hexed ridge]

It's mostly gonna come down to shield breaking power & how well his teams can sustain without a dedicated healer/shielder for me. I'm very much convinced by his numbers, but I'll have to wait and see about his practicality. So I'm definitely waiting a couple of days before deciding on if I want to pull

[patent galleon]

^

[reef stump]

Itto's ER reqs look really moderate atm. Around the 130% mark. Gorou needs a lot more but he is also not a great dmg contributor in any case, so you can just easily stuff him with ER and be fine, similarly to how its done for Bennett.

[worldly mango]

Aight, makes sense. Ty!

[reef stump]

Practicality is ofc smth we can't tell right now. That inevitably needs play testing. And with regards to the healer/Shielder part. ZL is a very good Support for him. Not like you have to run him w/o a defensive Support

[charred crag]

is it verified that gorou E/Q isn't a geo construct by the way? It makes no mention, so it's a fairly safe assumption

[oak carbon]

It would make no sense for them to release a geo support for a geo dps but make him take a construct spot so We probably can assume no

if something like that we’re to happen it would be Beidou and baal all over again

[charred crag]

it would make no sense to release a split-scaling atk/def pyro/phys character who has almost no way to consolidate said scaling and is plagued by bugs, but they did xD

[oak carbon]

yeah ig this is Mihoyo we are talking about so 🤷‍♂️

[reef stump]

Just from his animations his E and Q are not actually objects and jsut fancy visuals

[hexed ridge]

I'd also expect Itto's ult to not snapshot as it would have anti synergy with his tailor-made artifact set

but you never know with Mihoyo

[charred crag]

does ushi do any damage past its summoning?

or does it just "flee" without a second instance of dmg

[hexed ridge]

It doesn't afaik

It's just a fancy Ganyu E with more damage

[charred crag]

ganyu, mona and amber taunts all have a damage instance when destroyed/when duration ends, so just wondering if itto's was unique in that regard.

[hexed ridge]

Wait, really? I never knew that

[charred crag]

if ushi blew up as he fled, then they obviously meant for you to stack up his 4p bonus using 2 Es

[hexed ridge]

Ganyu's E says that it deals damage when it runs out though, Itto's E only mentions him getting a stack

[charred crag]

yeah

[hexed ridge]

Ushi exploding sounds sick though

[charred crag]

I'm guessing that itto's just gives stacks and only does damage on initial impact 😦

[nocturne sorrel]

if ushi blew up when he fled it'd be 1100% dmg every 10 seconds

at that point you forget carry itto and play him as a quickswap battery

[charred crag]

if only zhongli resonance around a construct that wasn't a pillar counted as belonging to the construct owner.

I guess that would bugger zhong's ER mechanics though 😛

[storm tulip]

tbf though

that is kazuha E scaling

every 6

[storm tulip]

I mean no

it happens for 1 rotation

and then you only miss 1 stack worst case scenario

and it is only the defense part of it anyways and a4 still uses that extra defense regardless

[hexed ridge]

It's still anti synergy at the end of the day, it's really only Gorou's 25% Def buff that would somewhat encourage snapshotting

[storm tulip]

it is a very minor detail

also the artifact set is made with him albedo and gorou in mind

its design is to accomodate all of them

[nocturne sorrel]

wait how do you get three stacks before ult

[hexed ridge]

I don't think you can, it's a noticeable loss on the first rotation if it in fact snapshots

He probably means 3 stacks after the first rotation as the stacks slowly fall off

[storm tulip]

you only lose 1 stack every 6 seconds

not all of them

[storm tulip]

it is a 4% difference at worst, while noticeable it is not really gamechnaging

and from then on it is basically no difference

[hexed ridge]

It's definitely not big, but I would still expect a new character's kit to work favorably with his BiS artifact set, especially when it gets released alongside him

There's really no reason why Itto's ult should snapshot

[storm tulip]

well c4 is one

even gorou buff is another, while not a big one

[hexed ridge]

C4 is a good point, yet I'd still expect them to create abilities around his C0, not his C4 that got changed mid beta

[onyx junco]

it doesnt really accomodate completly with albedo because he snapshots, and maybe gorou snapshots too

all geo char who scale with def do snapshot iirc

[charred crag]

imagine eula having an E CD longer than the 4PF stack uptime

[storm tulip]

yes, but in albedo's case it is as much a boon as the other way around

gorou we have no idea how he works

but all constructs will forever snapshot stats

it is just how they work as a core

like albedo Q snapshots stats on cast for his Q blossoms

and jade screen snapshots ning's stats on cast too

for the starshatter gems that are spawned from jade screen

[quaint locust]

R5 blackcliff better over r1 AND r5 whiteblind? Or which is better? And blackcliff would be worse than SS even with all stacks right?

Someone earlier said r1 blackcliff beats r5 wb if ever its able to get a stack, which is why im asking

And im mad enough to have already spent on 5 fkn blackcliff slashers instead of using the starglitter on fates

[reef stump]

Based on the assumption Itto snapshots his DEF conversion like Noelle. Causing you to never get more than 1 Stack DEF from WB w/o paying with rotation time. And in that scenario Blackcliff can beat R5 WB.
Blackcliff refinements ofc only matter if you can actually get Stacks.

[storm tulip]

yeah blackcliff weapon refinements are usually low value due to multiple factors

[quaint locust]

So blackcliff is basically faster with rotations and stronger with stacks despite the def bonus wb gives?

Blackcliffs are super underrated imo lol

[quaint locust]

And also can it beat SS on itto?

R1 ss

[frosty hill]

Is gorou still good to use in a geo team if hes not c6?

[lament hazel]

Hey is r1 ss good for itto?

[spark aurora]

ye

[spark aurora]

i doubt it

[lament hazel]

How good is it?

[spark aurora]

it's his best 4 star option

as is how serpent spine usually is

[tidal violet]

Hello, what artifacts set would work for Gorou?

• 4NO
• 2pc Archaic, 2pc Husk
• 2pc Emblem, 2pc Husk

Also what X/X/X do we follow? Triple DEF or ER/DEF/DEF? I'm planning to start pre-farming a 2pc that can be pre-farmed for Gorou starting today.

[low valve]

theoretically

if you want shields and er you could run 2pc wanderers 2pc eosf

[storm tulip]

Those can work, 4 husk can work, 4 emblem can work, 4 petra can work if you want to buff a specific subdps but I dont personally recommend farming petra domain anymore, especially since noblesse can be farmed passively

You want def/geo/crit or er/geo/crit (er/def/crit can also work here but it is worse)

[hexed ridge]

Is EM Gorou completely out of the picture by the way? I‘ve never played around with Crystallize, but do those shields get overwritten by ones with smaller shield amounts? Meaning Gorou‘s full EM shields getting refreshed by Itto‘s 0 EM shields?

I would assume they get overwritten, but otherwise Fav Gorou with EM/EM/EM doesn‘t sound that copium

[worldly mango]

Shields dont get overwritten, but they also don't stack.
They merely exist together.
If you have 2 shields:
Shield 1: 500hp
Shield 2: 750hp
And then you take 500 dmg
Shield 1 will be destroyed.
Shield 2 will also take the 500 dmg, meaning it will have 250 left.

[hexed ridge]

Oh, that‘s also the case if it‘s the same shield source? I knew that was the case with shields from different characters, but it would make sense for Crystallize to behave similarly I guess

[storm tulip]

no, crystallize shields get replaced/overwritten by other crystallize shields which is what was asked

and yes, they get replaced by 0 EM crystals

it is not a keep higher HP shield unfortunately

gorou with triple EM is viable as a petra support in some other comps, but not with multiple crystallize sources

[ancient pecan]

4p exile gorou anyone?
in the dugtrio comp 4p NO is not very useful and 4p instructor's is not needed so that leaves us with 4p petra but tbf i'm not sure if 35% dmg bonus to the flex is better than giving some energy back to the team

[storm tulip]

exile is shit

that is all

[worldly mango]

Oh, I misunderstood the question then.
"but do those shields get overwritten by ones with smaller shield amounts"
I thought that meant other bigger shields together with crystalize shields as crystalize shields al share the same maxhp

[ancient pecan]

kinda, but it's the only support set that actually helps geo def scalers
or are you going to boost gorou's dmg with 4p husk/EoSF?

[storm tulip]

I need to run gorou calcs and check which is better, but 4pc noblesse is still around a 3% dps increase for itto

it is not massive, but it is at least something

like with exile you are losing gorou damage for 6 energy on itto

that is basically it

that is the only character who would even benefit from it, since you dont use albedo Q and if you did he gets it on rotation regularly, zhong also being 40 cost on a 20sec+ rotation is on the same boat

and you are losing stats on gorou that either make it harder to proc fav bow or provide less ER

[lament hazel]

guys

was wondering

r5 whiteblind or r1 ss for itto?

whats better?

[storm tulip]

r1 ss by far

[reef stump]

R1 SS no doubt

[lament hazel]

really far?

okay

[storm tulip]

Yah ok no, noblesse is the best set for him, both emblem and husk arent good cause he has no damage pretty much

[lament hazel]

you have access to advanced servers?

so gorou runs with 4 NO?

correct?

[storm tulip]

Yeah it is either noblesse or 4pc emblem only if you feel like you need more ER, 4pc here is not even necessary, just 2pc suffices, but 4pc is just better than 2pc emblem + another random 2pc like husk or petra

[red umbra]

what should artis you run with gorou in a. mono geo vs geo + elemental off field support comp?

[lament hazel]

No

or 4pc emblem like zack said above

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, I'm gonna run 4pc Emblem with Favonius for battery Gorou.

[turbid dagger]

Why is ER/DEF/CRIT worse here?

[storm tulip]

Because he has shit base defense and already buffs defense substantially, so geo damage ends up being better

[turbid dagger]

Ok, can you show me math proving ER/DEF/CRIT is worse?

[storm tulip]

Not at home right now, but it is not a huge difference anyways it is substat range which is why I said it can work

[red umbra]

Gorou's bis is gonna be 4NO or 4EoSF?

instead of HOoD?

[turbid dagger]

Maybe my math's wrong, but from what I can see, his skill does more damage with GEO but his burst actually does more damage with a DEF set and per round, it's almost identical damage.

[storm tulip]

For me it is around a 10% differemce favoring geo, probably talent level thresholds

[turbid dagger]

I was assuming C6 crowned with some generious substats for crit, but maybe at lower levels...

[storm tulip]

Mine was c6 talent 12, but I do have more defense sub on the er/geo/crit because the goblet can have that

[teal sable]

crowned wtf

[turbid dagger]

I'm gonna crown my Gorou.

[teal sable]

ok

[reef stump]

I get Geo Goblet 8% above DEF Goblet for total DPR and thats with T10/13/13 and very high investment

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x20IwTqLd9xt3zwqFGgwb_b3GJbl3JfaCwzRPZY0ofM/edit#gid=1328410063

Checked for both 4HooD and 4EoSF

For 4 EoSF specifically the gap between DEF and Geo Goblet is smaller

And conditionally I can see it being about even

But DEF Goblet actually being better doesn't seem like a given to me

[charred crag]

crowned gorou NA

[ionic cape]

you got the VA

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, hm. Wonder if the thing I'm using for calcs isn't accurate.

[knotty lion]

Itto generated 5 particles?

[low valve]

😮

POG?

[reef stump]

That looks like 4 to me, the fifth glow is the Stack counter on his back

[knotty lion]

Ohh. Still, 4 is nice. Leaks says he only has 3. I wonder if he got shadow buff

[unique rover]

i thought it's only 3

the other 2 seem both like his stacks

ill look the vid up

[reef stump]

Leaks were technically 3-4, which might still be the case

[frigid hound]

4

It should be a range of 3-4

In favor of 3 by a bit

[frigid hound]

This part is pure assumption base on all the particle data we have on current characters

[reef stump]

Given that the current ER assumptions are based on 3/2 for Itto/Gorou

nothing changes much effectively

[frigid hound]

Yep

[reef stump]

130% ER tops in a Geo Team

[frigid hound]

Should be around the same

Same with gorou

[storm tulip]

so if they really have kept this description so far, I really think you just passively gain stacks off field

[static mural]

https://imgur.com/wbTHAZV
https://imgur.com/d97Fzi2

just dropping it here unlike thoma showcase which had multiple E casts, this time around mhy was less generous of showing particle gen

[alpine crown]

english descriptions are really not reliable

[spark aurora]

last sentence disproves that

if u passively gained one every 3 seconds then you'd never be able to lose a stack

[ancient pecan]

EN translations are garbage

remember kaz rainbow buff?

[storm tulip]

you would lose them by staying on field not dealing geo damage

[spark aurora]

but that sounds pretty dumb

are other translations more clear?

[storm tulip]

yeah I thought that originally, but they also slightly tweaked the description

which is why when I saw it in livestream with a slight tweak again, I thought it was weird to keep it again

[onyx junco]

i am kinda scared because in the video they tried to prefunnel itto with his E, that might mean that he doesnt generate particles when he is in his ult

[storm tulip]

not really, like chinese has a semicolumn which is what I was going off instead before, but with the way it is presented in livestream it is more like:

on field geo dmaage gives a stack every 0.3 seconds max;
off field a stack is gained every 3 seconds;

instead of:
on field geo dmaage gives a stack every 0.3 seconds max;off field a stack is gained every 3 seconds;

this might not seem like a huge difference, but second one can be read as a substitution of time for stacks while the first one cannot

[spark aurora]

which means that itto's burst would definitely snapshot since the problem of him not being able to start with full stacks is gone

scuffed wb is real

[real phoenix]

New itto frames from the livestream just counted

[teal sable]

...and

[real phoenix]

TL;DR, he's faster, at least his ult SCAs

[storm tulip]

by how much, anything significant?

[real phoenix]

it'a also on the mastersheet

the whopperflower vid

[storm tulip]

ok, that is actually a decent difference

hmm, this is pretty much a 10% increase, maybe Q atk speed wasnt working correctly before

[teal sable]

what's mini dash/teleport

[real phoenix]

at the start of every SCA string, itto does a mini dash/teleport thing

[quaint locust]

Hows bennett look as a support for itto?

[smoky copper]

Not too good since he increases his own atk

Like still good cuz Bennett, but not as good as he is for other units

[storm tulip]

c5 benny with mist/aquila=c5 gorou, c0=c1

obviously gorou is way better energy for itto, since geo and can run fav bow

[quaint locust]

Would both goro and bennett on the same team be redundant then, esp with goro at c4 and benny at c5?

Also how many particles do goro generate without fav bow?

[reef stump]

Redundant is the wrong word, but the impact would be diminished and its likely not ideal to do. Imo one of Itto's plus points is, similar to Hu Tao, that he lets you use Bennett freely on the other Team, as Itto simply doesn't benefit nearly as much as the usual Bennett desiring units do.

[patent galleon]

so is Itto still worth comparably to a C6 high investment Noelle?

[quaint locust]

What are the pros and cons of zhongli and ningguang on a goro itto team?

And/or

[storm tulip]

From our early analysis of a character eho is very hard to analyze early since he is completely normal/charged based, he is way better than c6 noelle at c0

[storm tulip]

Zhongli is pretty much an irreplaceable spot on the team due to how itto rotations work, other true shielders like xinyan or diona can work, but zhongli is the one that provides the most damage out of all of them and is the best shielder anyways

Ningguang, if gorou is c6, can provide the same or even more damage as albedo in the comp per rotation, but with overall less energy for the team (you only get 1 e cast that gives energy per rotation) and a slightly longer (1-2 seconds) rotation which ends up losing you team dps, but she is still a good choice for the spot

[tribal osprey]

is there a sheet for this?

[storm tulip]

If you scroll up a bit there are multiple links for noelle/itto comparisons

[final socket]

hello hello, i have both c1 zhongli & albedo atm. would albedo be better in a itto, zhongli, gorou comp or would benny
be better?

[storm tulip]

Albedo

[tribal osprey]

im not seeing a noelle sheet though

[unique rover]

^

[storm tulip]

That is one for example, not the combo we usually consider for itto though

[unique rover]

But I can't find any other

[storm tulip]

But in general itto is 10-25% above noelle per target depending on optimal combos

So in a heavy AoE scenario noelle pulls ahead if she can hit more enemies than c0 itto

[final socket]

sorry for asking again, has anyone made an itto weapon comparison with wgs on it?

[reef stump]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OXZPDUsAsmiappp9_2AUVG8DgOCZS-1I0s79i_le8kQ/edit#gid=0

Thats a Noelle Sheet I did a while ago using combos for a 20s timeframe under the same conditions as my Itto Calcs. Its in a vacuum personal damage, so ofc not necessarily indicative of Team performance or actual in-game performance in relation to Itto.

[nocturne sorrel]

noelle's biggest plus is not forcing you into a fixed rotation

burst has no downtime and you can switch out for supports whenever

[quaint locust]

Hmm i wonder if there'll be any burst that come out ever again similar to diluc and noelles elemental infusion, since it looks like itto wont have that kind of infusion

By that i mean switching them off field and having them come back on with the infusion still in effect

[storm tulip]

sorta not really

you can switch but it is beyond that

you HAVE to switch

her lack of energy generation forces you to have to take extra time genning energy with her supports

yes you arent fixed to a rotation, but you kinda are fixed to taking advantage of those support cooldowns

even when they are relatively low impact, like gorou E

for comparison, what happens if I spend as much uptime with noelle on field with the best comp for either of them, vs itto

the ER requirements are way higher for noelle and her team, and this is on a mono geo comp where she is benefitting a lot from her teammates

comparison with a non geo 4th slot over zhongli

basically in order to not lose your overall dps, noelle has to have longer downtime than itto even though her "uptime" is better

it is not a huge difference, even just an extra second to swap for gorou E and come back is more than enough, but it is an extra second you are losing on your highest source of damage from party

[ancient pecan]

that's why imo you shouldn't build hyper noelle but instead use supports that do damage and have good synergies

noelle usually builds double geo + 2 supports
triple geo with gorou sounds nice but it's not as forced as with itto

[nocturne sorrel]

it's more time spent on supports or trading 30-40% def for ER in stats

generally you do the latter

noelle would never be better if you're comparing fixed rotas for both her and itto, she just has the advantage of not being locked into "set up for 9s, then dps for 11s"

because not every fight is tailored for exactly that

[ancient pecan]

actually has anyone done a dmg calc comparing "selfish" noelle with a noelle that swaps to geo MC (or other support) every 6s?

yep

[nocturne sorrel]

mc rocks are really high mv so i doubt selfish noelle can beat swapping

only downside is the potential for the rocks to screw up positioning

[ancient pecan]

like when enemies end up on top of them and you have to climb

definitely has a learning curve

[nocturne sorrel]

mc would have to go in the flex slot though

doubt his damage contribution beats gorou buff on both a main dps and albedo

[storm tulip]

sure, but I dontthink there is currently any pure support caharacter that can outdps selfish noelle, even a combination of 2 is a stretch, since by far the best geo partner for her is gorou and the best subdps after is albedo

[ancient pecan]

what if you just drop gorou and go with double geo + something like fischl beidou instead?

[storm tulip]

it might work, but you can still run fischl in that last slot regardless, and I doubt beidou is outdpsing gorou+buffs on noelle and albedo

especially if gorou is c6 vs beidou c6

[nocturne sorrel]

not sure about the energy req on that

[ancient pecan]

in theory you can freely swap to counter with beidou with noelle so beidou's ER should be fine

but i'm not sure about noelle's, depends on the 2nd geo

[storm tulip]

also beidou fischl is also a lot higher requirement for noelle if gorou is not involved

[ancient pecan]

but anyways now that albedo is getting supercharged with his new weapon, hood and gorou he's probably very hard to beat as a geo subdps tbh

[storm tulip]

comparison with gorou vs beidou

[nocturne sorrel]

this is with geomc instead, looks fine

[ancient pecan]

yea
i guess 2.3 is shaking the geo meta

who would've thought

[storm tulip]

yes, but geo MC is not a good subdps is the thing

he is usable

[ancient pecan]

geo the most stable element

[storm tulip]

but compared to albedo there he is awful

[storm tulip]

oh, that is also 2 perfect parries with beidou

which while possible, planning your energy around them is very wrong imo

[ancient pecan]

gorou + albedo is just really hard to beat tbh

[storm tulip]

yeah

[ancient pecan]

and beidou by herself is not strong enough to be used as the flex slot in a noelle comp

[nocturne sorrel]

perfect parries seem fine for a noelle team

[storm tulip]

as i said, theya re possible

but planning ER around them is wrong

it is not super hard, but still conditional

[ancient pecan]

would 4p EoSF ER sands solo beidou be any good if you went with AP gorou to buff her?

or just go fischl and forget about it?

because tbh if you're doing noelle albedo gorou + fischl flex you might as well play itto, that team is not taking advantage of her swaps

[nocturne sorrel]

also i'm not sure about albedo being much better than geomc for damage, geomc is 1054% atk x3 rocks, albedo is 320% def (including spindle) x10 procs

[storm tulip]

she would, beidou is amazing even without gorou buffing her with AP, but would she beat albedo+extra damage on noelle in the comp, probably not

[storm tulip]

and gorou buff

[ancient pecan]

nono i mean
noelle albedo gorou + beidou flex

[storm tulip]

it is WAY higher

[nocturne sorrel]

gorou isn't in those teams

those were 2 geo 2 electro

[storm tulip]

oh, yeah, it is just er issues then, but gorou has fav so it might be fine

[ancient pecan]

true
you also want to do gorou > beidou to snapshot petra so you're funneling gorou's energy anyways

[nocturne sorrel]

gorou fav is sketchy

[storm tulip]

yes, but that is a mistake to begin with, because beidou isnt beating gorou buff on albedo+ noelle ever, and geo MC isnt beating albedo either

[storm tulip]

why the fuck do you think that

it is literally the only weapon he can use profitably

[nocturne sorrel]

if you have r5 you need 50% cr for it to proc once in a rota

it's good stats wise but counting on the proc means you'll fail 25% of the time

[ancient pecan]

after 2.3 geo MC's only comp will be microwave

[storm tulip]

50% crit rate is easy as fuck to get, either way, you get to E+auto at a bare minimum

and then Q deals instant damage

[ancient pecan]

hope there are multiple enemies for more chances to crit

[storm tulip]

in a rotation you get 3 proc chances minimum for itto and 5 for noelle, for potentially 2 procs on her

[ancient pecan]

you can also try to quickscope an aimed headshot he's a bow user after all

[storm tulip]

also true

you dont even need to charge for that

but probably just faster spamming 2-3 autos then

like at 50% crit rate which is low, you get an 87.5% chance to proc fav bow in itto rotation, for noelle 81.3% chance you get 2

with 60% which is a bit more realistic you get 93.6% on itto rotation and 91.3% on noelle rotation to get 2 procs

[ancient pecan]

another team where noelle's swaps help is microwave
noelle geo MC zhongli + benny
but i'm not sure if it can beat albedo + gorou tbh
and it's also kinda clunky because it requires a lot of swapping

[storm tulip]

you would just run albedo instead of geo mc and gorou instead of benny

[ancient pecan]

you lose the microwave dmg by doing that though

[storm tulip]

which is the best comp for noelle/itto

if zhong is c0 sure

[ancient pecan]

the idea of microwave is to boost ZL's damage and multiply it with the geo MC arena

[storm tulip]

if he is c1 it is amazing still

[ancient pecan]

noelle still scales with ATK so benny is fine

not better than gorou but ok

[storm tulip]

yeah, but you hardly ever get more than an effective extra 1-2 constructs from microwave

[ancient pecan]

when comparing microwave to other comps i consider 3 or 4 pulses as the most realistic scenario
pillar + geo MC rock + 1-2 arena corners

[storm tulip]

usually only half of the Q is useful and field time for geo mc is a lot higher than albedo in the comp

[ancient pecan]

yea
and ZL also wants to burst there

it's more of a quickswap comp tbh

i guess you have to balance the swaps to keep the microwave going and noelle's field time

[storm tulip]

the other huge thing is that bennet buff is being used more for them than for noelle

[ancient pecan]

you can play it in a selfish way by setting everything up and then rarely swapping out
or you can play it quickswappy by swapping off cd to geo MC to place a rock and to ZL to refresh pillar and drop meteors
team comparisons are complicated

[storm tulip]

I still think that ning and albedo are usually just better at taking advantage of zhongli pulses than geo MC is (if zhong is c1)

purely because venn diagraming with them, especially ning is so much easier

[ancient pecan]

you mean how you can place a pillar inside the jade screen?

[storm tulip]

yeah

[ancient pecan]

i dunno, geo MC lets microwave reach its highest potential and makes it more consistent by covering more area imo

the only issue is the construct limit making it awkward to place more rocks after you got 3 constructs on field

[storm tulip]

yeah, but grouping is still a very effective tool, and zhong pulses work with venti while kazuha is always amazing with bennet on the squad, ning specifically lets you have a dedicated main dps in the comp that is also working with zhong while bennet and anemo unit are working towards your goal while geo mc and zhong together lack a proper dps if you want to run a dedicated grouper since while geo MC Q improves the area a lot, it is still never better than an actual grouper

(also dont forget that zhong petrify is like freeze and allows for venti/kazuha to pull enemies they otherwise wouldnt be able to move)

like if my goal is to deal better AoE damage I would rather work towards actively working on that axis through my supports versus dealing that damage in a area I dont have a lot of control over

[ancient pecan]

true
but you can always go the quickswap route with ZL + geo MC + benny + anemo grouper

[storm tulip]

yes, but if I want to do that

ning is so much superior

[ancient pecan]

actually if the grouper is kaz you can maybe even use benny as your main dps kinda like a weird PP comp

[storm tulip]

you need ER sands on bennet guaranteed

[ancient pecan]

yep
but he has his own burst to compensate

broken da broken

[storm tulip]

you are better off running zhong on 4pc petra and using him as dps with bennet c6 then

[ancient pecan]

lots of options

[storm tulip]

geo MC used to have an edge in microwave which was that his walls couldnt get destroyed by enemies after they spawned

but that isnt even the case anymore

[ancient pecan]

well tbf without the burst walls the microwave kinda stops being a microwave
it's kinda just a dong and a couple rocks resonating

at that point almost any other geo becomes better

[mystic fox]

i ran 4petra zhongli/albedo with raiden this abyss

was pretty fun

[reef stump]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KcVbb8Jin8fIxwZM_WLLLsusmiMbkpOZ7QcCWxS6iOY/edit#gid=0
Difference between R5 DM and Homa isn't even that overwhelming in my Calcs.

For ZL

[storm tulip]

yeah ok, so yours is slightly higher invested than mine

cause my r1 homa was 250k

still, fair assumptions though

[reef stump]

Regarding Team Dmg ramifications. Should Albedo use Q in Dugtrio + ZL?

[reef stump]

Sooo, very preliminary:
Dugtrio + ZL:

C2 Hyper Raiden:

[red umbra]

All crowned characters damn

[frigid hound]

U can just safely ignore the crowned AAs

On some units

[red umbra]

I have like 5 crowns left

[reef stump]

Its just the investment standard

crowning more than your Main DPS there is fairly negligible

Gorou Crown is an absolute meme

And btw, as always, take with as much salt as you can ingest w/o dying from dehydration

[red umbra]

Where itto sheets compared to Noelle at

Why isn't it in pins

[outer jacinth]

C2 hyper Raiden does a shitton of damage oml I need it

[reef stump]

Bc Team dmg estimations this early are basically janky as hell

[red umbra]

Also funny as the 30% atk speed buff isn't really visible on videos

[reef stump]

I'll be working on something, but whether that is accurate or telling you something about real situations is a different question

[red umbra]

All looks like the same atk speed on charge

[reef stump]

And for Noelle Calcs I'd need help anyway, since I don't know enough about Noelle rotations

[red umbra]

Noelle is still c5

[nocturne sorrel]

yea because you're halfway through your charged attacks by the time the atk speed buff fully ramps up

and resets a couple hits later

wait when did his c6 get buffed to 70% cd

it was already ridiculous enough before

[unique rover]

When all the changes on itto happened

[storm tulip]

Only if he is c2 and even then need target advantage I think

[storm tulip]

When c4 was changed his c6 got 20% more crit damage to make up a bit for it, it is overall a dps increase to c6 after first rotation

[red umbra]

that's actually pretty great ngl

the first team probably benefits more from the extra substat investment

but for a c0 team that takes neither bennett or kazuha that's some nice damage

[reef stump]

It looks pretty good, yeah. Gotta see how reliable that dmg is with a lack of direct grouping tools. Ushi helps a bit with soft grouping atleast. Also gotta see how reliable ZLs dmg is, but even with a 100k less thats still respectable overall

[red umbra]

that's true lack of grouping could be an issue

the opportunity cost for the comp is so low tho which is really nice

oh fuck i just noticed the c6 gorou

[reef stump]

But like, Eula and Noelle Teams also don't have grouping

[red umbra]

noelle arguably doesn't need it tbf

and eula really likes grouping she just can't fit it in

[reef stump]

Let me do one with C2 Gorou later

[red umbra]

[reef stump]

Gorou C5 was around 27% iirc and Gorou C6 43%

1.43/1.27 ~ 12.6%

So C5 -> C6 Gorou would be a 12.6% increase for Itto and Albedo and himself

So not a crippling difference really

[red umbra]

yeah thats not too bad

out of interest how much team dps increase was bennett for c2 hyper raiden with c6 sara?

do you have a rough idea?

[reef stump]

T13 Ben + 800 EM Kaz are 130% for Raiden

C6 Sara a 36% increase after the 2

Let me rip out Kaz for Bennett as such

[red umbra]

oh that's not as much as i expected either

[reef stump]

W/o Kaz & VV

[red umbra]

which one is the just bennett column?

[reef stump]

middle one

[red umbra]

oh wait kaz is just ignored

[reef stump]

Yeah

[red umbra]

that's pretty chunky

as expected ig

[reef stump]

Bennett after Sara is probably in the 40-50% Ballpark

And thats Alley Hunter Bennett and Mouun's Moon/Alley Flash Sara

So Aquila + Harp figures would be a bit higher

[red umbra]

could you try taking away bennett and just having c6 sara and kaz?

[reef stump]

Yep, sec

With Bennett and NO Buff removed

[red umbra]

thanks that's v helpful

[reef stump]

np

[sharp sinew]

Just wondering, will Itto out DPS Eula?

[ocean bison]

i dont think he will out dps eula but i think he will out dps Xiao, but i can be wrong tho

[patent galleon]

In ST probably, not in AoE tho

[untold badger]

Depends on the AoE but if it's like 2-3 enemies (Which is most of abyss) they should be doing similar damage, though Itto should be slightly stronger

[hexed ridge]

The CN calcs I‘ve seen have Eula‘s personal damage quite a bit higher (among the highest in the game next to Ayaka), they have Itto‘s full team damage around 10% ahead however

[reef stump]

C6 Eula or C0 Eula?

[hexed ridge]

C0 vs C0

[reef stump]

Bc C0 Eula having one of the highest personal damage in the game seems very weird

Unless maybe you give her Bennett, which is unusual

[red umbra]

Which is better 98/222 or 70/266 on itto with redhorn

[hexed ridge]

It was personal damage in a vacuum, only with superconduct in her case. So someone like Raiden wouldn‘t have access to any supports basically

[hexed ridge]

The first one has higher total crit value, so it‘s probably better if the other stats stay the exact same

[red umbra]

Hmm ok

If I don't get it on the final week with f2p gems
Its wallet time

[reef stump]

Ah, okay, that makes more sense then. Basically unbuffed she should be fairly high up. Just looking at Buffed Setups I didn't have her very high.

[teal sable]

why would that be unusual

[reef stump]

Given how backloaded Eula's dmg is timing can be potentially tight and if Eula is forced out of Bennett Q the Buff loses most of its value for the same reason

You can play it and its being played for oneshots. But for general play its usually not recommended

[teal sable]

Hm

Ok

[red umbra]

Yep and add in gorou buff it would be 98/262

[untold badger]

tbh counting just personal damage isn't exactly useful. I mean, if you manage to low plunge with Xiao, he actually has similar ST damage with Hu Tao, but he is 99% of his team damage, and hu tao is about 65-70%, so yeah

[spark aurora]

how's the comparison between r1 blackcliff and r5 whiteblind? (assuming wb has 1-2 stacks)

[storm tulip]

with 0 stacks on blackcliff around the same

obviously assuming itto snapshots defense which he likely does

[atomic sundial]

say, Zack, you think I should shell out some starglitter to buy blackcliff?

can't afford serpent spine... (and thus redhorn lmao)

I can afford r5 whiteblind but idk...

[ancient pecan]

imo save it for characters
targeted characters are very valuable, specially the 3 starters

[atomic sundial]

mm...

but I never use the starters

I already have c1 Bennett

tbf I have all the 4*

[ancient pecan]

what about their key constellations?

[atomic sundial]

Xingqiu is c2 in my account

[verbal cape]

I heard itto has higher damage than xiao? But less aoe

[ancient pecan]

think of it this way: on avg it takes around 40 pulls to get a specific featured 4* character
if the character is not on rate-up, the odds are so low you will probably get a 5* before the specific 4* you want

[storm tulip]

I would say at least wait for the banner to see if itto snapshots or not

cause if he happens not to, then whiteblind is way better

if not, I still think the difference is minimal so I would get whiteblind in your case unless you really dont care about any of the 4 stars on shop

[atomic sundial]

I really wish Rosaria was on shop

I need c2

[slim pivot]

Last time she was on what banner?

Kazuha?

[atomic sundial]

Rosaria on Itto banner please...

and Sara

[storm tulip]

If sara is not on itto banner I will riot, they belong together

[sharp sinew]

Does someone has a list of Itto's pros and cons?

[quaint locust]

I aint that guy but i can say off the bat hes geo element and he has the same burst cost as xiao, both being cons

The second one means you defenitely need to battery itto with another geo (goro hopefully)

[storm tulip]

Well, his being paired with a geo for energy isnt exactly a con because that is at a base what geo wants to do due to resonance he also has decent energy generation amd gorou is his best support and his only useful weapons are fav/sac bow which are again more energy

While the energy would usually be a con, in itto's case it is basically fixed at base

[ocean bison]

anyone knows how itto dmg would compare to eula?

[quaint locust]

Yea but unless theyre zhongli then geos have no choice but to get another geo since the only reaction it can do isnt for offense

[ancient pecan]

you don't need reactions to be viable
for example, pure pyro comps are a thing even though they can vaporize
or freeze comps, they technically don't amp their damage with reverse melt but instead choose freeze for CC and a crit buff, just like itto can choose gorou for more damage (and cdmg buff at c6)

reactions are damage multipliers
if you don't have access to them but have access to other ways to boost your damage it should be ok
... now if your base dmg is bad then that is another issue looks at amber

[dapper bramble]

can you change benet with albedo?

[velvet island]

Should i got for itto c1 or eula c3?

i already have zhong and albedo, so im not sure if making a full itto geo team would be better than just pumping up my eula

[hexed ridge]

I think most theorycrafters agree that C1 Itto isn‘t a very good constellations from a damage point of view. You can go for it for the sake of getting started with Gorou constellations but you‘ll likely not get C6 which is arguably his only „big“ spike

C3 Eula is a solid DPS increase for her and gets you started on the C6 journey if you want to go down that route. It‘s still Eula though, with all her caveats. It‘s really a personal choice. I doubt C3 Eula vs C1 Itto teams will have very significant DPS differences, at least that‘s what early numbers suggest

[red umbra]

Just get redhorn instead of c1

[low valve]

is his c1 really that negligible?

[sharp sinew]

Oh thanks for the answers, now I wonder, will geo have a harder time with shields than physical?

[reef stump]

Seems to be around the 7% ballpark. Has an advantage in frontloading Itto's dmg a bit more which is hard to quantify.
Performatively not a very good Cons, likely feels pretty good to play though.

[low valve]

dps increase compared to redhorn?

[reef stump]

Redhorn is 4-5% over R5 SS ~13.5% over R1 SS

[hexed ridge]

CN has C1 as a 4% DPS increase from what I've seen, but they're also using R5 SS for calcs which gives his CA less importance

[reef stump]

Idk their combo assumptions. Ofc if you fit less in his window but keep the 2 Es C1 loses value.

[quaint locust]

Would the redhorn stonethresher be comparable to staff of homa?

Or no bc defense doesnt scale as high as hp

[storm tulip]

they are just completely different weapons in the way they work

[crystal isle]

How many days do we have till itto?

[storm tulip]

28 days

basically a month

[quaint locust]

Yea youre right, but they do have somewhat similar effects in a way

[thin pumice]

Can anyone give an estimate of how much damage can a mono Geo Itto team with everyone C0 and itto with whiteblind do in one rotation?

[ancient pecan]

looking at some dmg comparison charts i think redhorn is like staff of homa for noelle and itto
it's just that SS and WGS* exist so it's not that big of a deal compared to polearms
*for atk scaling units, noelle and itto don't care about WGS

[storm tulip]

no, not at all, think twice about it, gravestone and unforged are the same as vortex vanquisher

jade spear and homa are way above it in use cases

redhorn isnt as good as homa because it doesnt apply to as many characters

[teal sable]

gravestone is similar to unforged/summit/memory/vortex but it's also a teamwide buff

[storm tulip]

yes, but most of the time gravestone passive isnt super relevant for your team, there are exceptions but apart from speedrun strats it is not something you try to play around

[teal sable]

redhorn isn't as good as homa because atk is way better than a bit of flat dmg.

[storm tulip]

no one realistically does calcs assuming gravestone passive for team is what I am saying

[ancient pecan]

what i mean is
redhorn is pretty good, and it elevates noelle and itto's damage quite a bit, just like homa does for hu tao
but claymores already have a couple good 5 and 4* alternatives so its worth as a generalist weapon is not as big compared to homa

[storm tulip]

that depends, which is what I meant with the weapons not being similar at all, first of all, homa applies to all your atk scaling because it is atk buff, redhorn is added scaling and only on normals/chargeds

but both can be the best in given scenarios, it is just homa is general while redhorn is not

redhorn scales better in characters with high defense stat and tame multipliers

homa scales better in characters with low atk stat but good multipliers, their target focus is basically opposite

what I mean by this is that even if say redhorn passive was atk over defense the same would apply, it would scale better from a char with high atk stat and low scaling than on a character with low atk and high scalings

also, no compared to polearms or swords or bows, claymores and catalysts do not have good weapon selection

[ancient pecan]

how much of a dmg increase is redhorn compared to whiteblind/SS?

[reef stump]

4% over R5 SS, 13.5% over R1 SS

[storm tulip]

also, no, compared to polearms or swords or bows, claymores and catalysts do not have good weapon selection

gravestone/unforged/memory/atlas/lost prayer are all really mediocre weapons in the grand scheme of things

[ancient pecan]

and compared to white blind?

[storm tulip]

homa/pjws/jade cutter/mistsplitter/thundering pulse/harp are all massively better weapons than those are

[reef stump]

If Itto snapshots his conversion R1 SS is ~13.6% above R5 WB and if he does not snapshot R1 SS is ~6.4% above R5 WB

[storm tulip]

gravestone gets saved by its team passive and is a good selection for a support weapon due to it but even then it can either be good value or completely irrelevant in an encounter

Also, redhorn also scales with number of hits your character does per a certain amount of time

like crescent pike does

[teal sable]

Huh?

[storm tulip]

it should apply the passive on every hit

like raiden resolve/zhong a4

for example eula has double hits on her normals

so she should apply the passive twice on those

[teal sable]

Twice on each hit?

So it stacks?

Or ...

[storm tulip]

one per individual hit, but it is a multi hit attack in a chain, so for that normal atatck instead of a total of 40-80% def scaling you get 80-160%

because that attack in the chain is hitting twice

[teal sable]

How does Zhong A4 do that?

[storm tulip]

he has multi hits

[ancient pecan]

i wonder if going for spin2win noelle will be better than n4 with redhorn
iirc CA was close to NA4 if you could do the entire spin

[teal sable]

Ok

[storm tulip]

his 5th attack, the spear kick hits 4 times

and each hit has the same hp scaling to it

it is a total of 5.6% hp scaling on the spear kick

[storm tulip]

it is possible

[ancient pecan]

once you get past the start animation claymore CA hit pretty fast
and noelle has like 15% CA dmg bonus in her c2 iirc

[storm tulip]

yeah but that is just additive dmg%

it is not that big of a deal

the deal here would be the defense scaling from redhorn

with r5 redhorn it should almost definitely be the way to go

yeah probably only at r5 redhorn will it be better, it is 11 hits with the charged vs 8 hits from 2 full normal chains, so it is 240% defense scaling advantage + c2 versus 210% atk scaling advantage minus c2 so yeah even then it edges on the difference c2 makes, redhorn alone wouldnt cut it, since atk stat is way higher than defense stat

[ancient pecan]

i just checked the frame data
NA4 would be 158% MV/s + 50% DEF/s
CA would be 141% MV/s + 71% DEF/s
this at r1
did i calc this right? i hope i did

[charred crag]

Have I been blind this whole time, or did they switch itto Q from increasing res to decreasing it?

I thought he got more tanky, not less (though with the amount of def he stacks not like it's a big deal)

[spark aurora]

ye

[ancient pecan]

if we convert MV/s to ATK/s + DEF/s to account for burst def > atk conversion we end up with
158% ATK/s + 263% DEF/s for N4 and
141% ATK/s + 261% DEF/s for CA
so uh yea N4 still better it seems, but pretty close overall
(this assuming c6 and crowned burst)

[charred crag]

Yes I've been blind, or yes they switched it

[spark aurora]

they changed it from increasing res to decreasing res quite a while ago

[quaint locust]

How many E particles do goro and itto make?

[real phoenix]

2 and 4 respectively, iirc

[quaint locust]

Ugh

How is goro supposed to battery itto without fav bow XD

[steep marsh]

running a Fav Bow

[reef stump]

Gorou isn't really batterying Itto. Its more a combination of Triple/Quad Geo

Fav ofc helps and he doesn't have good weapons for himself anyway

But you don't even funnel Gorou particles to Itto

[storm tulip]

yeah gorou particles usually will end up going to either zhong or albedo, and albedo is never ever pressing Q unless he is c2 with target advantage

also, for geo chars specifically specifically sac bow=fav bow it is just fav bow is easier to trigger if both are r5 and can potentially even trigger twice in a rotation

[vale pawn]

sac fragments ning

[quaint locust]

Well how should itto be batteried? Esp if zhongli is on the team who cant generate particles too well

[reef stump]

His oqn particles + the Geo particles flowing in from the other 2 Geo members passively

He isn't overly hard to fund

As opposed to Noelle he actually generates a decent chunk of energy himself

[sharp sinew]

Will Itto have an issue with shields compared to Eula?

[reef stump]

Given that Eula is fairly ill-suited for it I doubt he is gonna have it worse

[quaint locust]

What are the pros and cons of every geo char if put with itto goro?

[ancient pecan]

ning: 12% geo dmg
geo mc: 10% crit
albedo: best off field dmg
ZL: -20% geo res and strong shield
noelle: don't

the main cons are that ning and geo mc want to swap often to make good use of their kit
albedo and ZL on the other hand are fine with casting their skill once per rotation

which is why they're the recommended itto supports (besides gorou)

[nocturne sorrel]

noelle: replaces itto

[reef stump]

Fun fact: getting Itto C6 seems to actually shrink the advantage of Redhorn over SS

[jagged burrow]

would thoma be a good shielder for itto?

[real phoenix]

no

[jagged burrow]

well who could be a good shielder for itto excluding zhongli

[ancient pecan]

i would go with diona probably
the comp lacks a healer and diona can do both
not the best for damage but best for comfyness

[jagged burrow]

oh okay okay

can geo mc be a good battery for him?

[hexed ridge]

I‘ve been building Xinyan personally, a full DPS build (atk/phys/crit) with WGS and ESF to fight her energy issues

If that‘s not enough to manage her energy, I‘ll swap to ER/Def/Def with Favonius I think and play her as a shieldbot & guaranteed Favonius trigger

Non-ZL haver copium

[quaint locust]

comp wouldnt lack a healer if you had c4 goro

[thin pumice]

anyone?

[atomic sundial]

i think if you scroll up there should be calculations?

[atomic sundial]

I can't find any but I did find this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XIbjWO2W0FSxHlgJLKzADlbV_5jpIBYRcp2sm53Vy_0/edit#gid=1747351395

[thin pumice]

hmm R5 SS? Thanks though.

[atomic sundial]

it has sections

with different weapons

but I don't know if the calculator includes Albedo and Zhongli etc

[thin pumice]

Thanks a lot!

[atomic sundial]

because I only see Gorou

for calcs with Zhongli I think someone has done that

let me scroll up

[atomic sundial]

I only found the r5 SS version by Raikh

[storm tulip]

Comp also doesnt lack a healer cause you aint ever taking damage with a dedicated shielder

[sharp sinew]

unless corrosion

[storm tulip]

Doggo corrosion is an actual joke

Leyline corrosion is another different beast

But that even hampers comps that already ran healers

[quaint locust]

True true, why run a healer if the char never takes dmg

[teal sable]

In overworld. Everything is in overworld. It's TBC for Abyss.

[storm tulip]

it is the same debuff

it is 80 dmg per tick

it is laughable

[teal sable]

Really?

I swear it's way more than 80 ...

[storm tulip]

it can stack

but it is 80 per tick per stack

1 hit will do 800 dmg total

since it ticks 10 times

but first of all getting hit by the dogs is hard to begin with

they are very easy to stagger and they group themselves too

[charred crag]

I think that's... false? Pretty sure corrosion is based on total HP, the same as it is for abyss (except it's not linked to enemy death so you get it way less frequently stacked)

Is gorou's Q damage meaningful enough to level/invest DPS-oriented artis into, or is he more of an E bot? Looking at his base def and taking self-buff E bonus and A4 into account, the ratios still seem to be significantly lower than albedo (albeit 1.5s tick rate and presumably over a larger aoe than blossoms)

[nocturne sorrel]

it's 5% max hp over 10s so around 800 for your average char

we'll find out whether it gets abyss damage scaling in a couple weeks

[red umbra]

anyone know dmg calcs for c0 gorou + c0 Itto

[knotty lion]

I've been wanting to compare Noelle's heal vs Gorou's.

Noelle's E at Level 13 so C6 has a 45.22% DEF + 282 healing bonus while Gorou's C4 is 50% DEF healing every 1.5 seconds. Gorou's passive gives him flat additional 25% DEF.

Noelle attacks so slow that 1.5 secs for Gorou doesn't matter since he heals better, I think.

[unique rover]

True but

Noelle has higher defense

And she heals the whole party

Meanwhile gorou has low Def, and c4 heals active char only

[knotty lion]

Yeah, but in corrosion it won't matter right since it stops at a percentage for non active characters? And rifthounds only affects you if you get hit?

[storm tulip]

noelle attacks 4 times per 3 seconds

do the math

also charged attacking on noelle is 11 hits in 6 seconds

so even more

if all you care about is healing noelle is WAY better

also noelle is for the whole team vs gorou on field

[mental kiln]

I don't know if this was already answered, but can Itto attain 100% burst up time with 4 geo team comp? Disregarding the CD after each burst

[knotty lion]

I understand. I'm just wondering cause somebody else said Noelle over Gorou + Itto will outperform them in the abyss cause Gorou C4 ain't enough healing. He's viable at C4 for healing even for corrosion with his autocollect and Itto is stronger anyway. Lol

[knotty lion]

So like, 4 heals for Noelle at lower % vs 2 heals for Gorou plus his shards and damage buff. Yeah, not much of a difference I think

Thanks! I don't play Noelle as much so I wasn't sure of her attack speed

[storm tulip]

Even without c4 gorou you will likely be fine as long as you have a dedicated shielder like zhongli

The dogs need to hit you 20 times to kill you, that is a LOT of hits especially since they have very telegraphed attacks and are easily staggered

Also dont forget that for the most part while on field you have a taunt out

[knotty lion]

That's true. I'm amazed at how well synchronized the 4 Geodudes are lol

But Albedo and Zhongli C1 will be a problem together with Itto. I wonder if Albedo and Gorou's fields will interact though. Like the auto collect of shards will happen as long as it's inside Gorou's banner even if it resulted due to Albedo's flower.. I think.

[ruby tundra]

Question: Can Gorou utilize 4 piece Noblesse? I am just trying to figure out how to put Noblesse on an Itto team

[reef stump]

Yes, he can

Among his better options

[charred crag]

If you're really overly worried about healing on certain floors (but you shouldn't be if you have zhong) you could always do gorou+Noelle; Noelle is still going to be a strong option for damage that's getting stronger with gorou* (and maybe new claymore)

Depends on how strong you need to be I guess, but definitely strong enough already, and getting stronger soon (itto is definitely going to do more damage though)

[ruby tundra]

Btw are we still thinking 4 team geo will be Itto best team or is there better options?

[charred crag]

As it stands, yes unless you really want to bring a specific shield breaker. Benefits of zhong+albedo+gorou together outweigh bringing in another support in what they provide to itto and each other (and if you're going against a lot of shielded enemies, might want to bring a different comp instead of 1 subdps/support breaker)

[knotty lion]

Is it possible to further buff Itto using Benny? Like after using Q conversion of DEF to ATK, stand on his circle and that should work right? I'm not really sure why everyone assumes that Benny won't be useful because of DEF scaling. Can anyone explain?

[reef stump]

Bennett works and is similarly effective to a C0 Gorou. The thing is just that Itto gets 25-30% dmg out of Bennett. Whereas your regular units get 50-60% more dmg out of Bennett, so he just has better uses elsewhere and isn't a priority for Itto.
Given the lesser benefit it also means its far easier to rival Bennetts value with Sub DPS options

[knotty lion]

Ohh, I see. That makes sense, thanks for explaining

[ruby tundra]

I remember a while ago people were talking about how Itto needs somebody to peform crystalize reactions. Is that not the case anymore?

[nocturne sorrel]

he needs a non-geo in team if that's what you mean

4 geo team can't crystallize unless you're hitting specific enemies

[ruby tundra]

Yeah thats what I meant. Like would a 4 geo team be better than lets say 3 geo + elemental unit (i.e. fishel)

[storm tulip]

not just what raikh said, but lets take 4 geo team for example, the only character bennet can realistically replace there is albedo, because he wont be providing any off field elemental application to enable shielding through crystallize so zhongli is a necessity and gorou is just better than him for itto

but albedo gorou/zhong buffed contributes more team dps than bennet does for zhong/itto (and due to uptime you can never buff both 100% of the time while albedo is always doing damage), so it is not really worth subing albedo here over bennet because it makes your team overall worse, not even going into what energy recharge issues this causes for your units on top

you can sub bennet over albedo here if you need a shield breaker situationally though and he is one of the better options for it for sure

[stoic wagon]

hmmm, how does gorou look with elegy? would it be desireable?

for dugtrio comp

[charred crag]

Provides an additional 20% attack boost occasionally with Q ticks, the EM would be 99.9% meaningless, and assuming you're running 4ToM zhongli and 4NO gorou already (neither of which are big buffs on itto, like 2-3% or so?), And less ER/no fav particles for gorou. Overall I'd say fav bow likely still better

[thorn heron]

So I have zhongli and plan on rolling for Gorou and itto - how important is Albedo shaping to be for the comp? Who might be possible 4th slots? Ofc with the knowledge that until release it’s hard to fully say

[alpine crown]

my suspicion is that if you have zhongli, you can get away with running gmc without much loss

[ancient pecan]

at that point you're probably better using benny instead of gorou
unless your gorou is c6

[misty vigil]

is it possible for gorou to heal 2k per tick?

[alpine crown]

looks to me like bennett may outperform non c6 gorou, but prob not by much

[reef stump]

Bennett can outperform a non-C6 Gorou in terms of buffing. But all things considered Grou likely still wins with regards to energy and just flexibility since Gorou doesn't really enforce circle impact since the Q moves alongside you.

Only cases where I'd seriously consider Bennett over Gorou for an Itto/Noelle comp is when you have other units greatly benefitting from Bennett or if you want to run Hyper Itto with both Gorou and Bennett

[alpine crown]

I agree tbh

i didnt count the energy that gorou gives, nor the dmg he does

and i dislike being restricted by bennett's circle

[alpine crown]

and this was specifically for using gmc over al

[reef stump]

Situation might be a bit different for microwave variations, but I would be concerned it biting too much into Itto Buff uptime if you want to do GMC things with Bennett Buff.
Still works for Noelle ofc since she can play quickswap

[alpine crown]

thats a good point actually

no point spending field time with gmc in bennett's burst

if it affects itto's uptime anyway

[reef stump]

Pretty much. I could also imagine that Noelle might realize microwave variatiosn just better since

Itto only gets you 1 GMC E per 20-22s

And you are much more vulnerable to construct destruction since you can't just switch off of Itto and place another one

[alpine crown]

if it gets destroyed, thats more dmg

im not sure how much of gmc's dmg is from the skill though

with noelle you can switch out and use another E, but is it actually worth doing?

[reef stump]

Well microwave in particular tries to leverage ZL Pillar resonance aswell, so if your constrcuts die you lose a lot of damage

You ofc want the GMC constructs to explode but not be left with none afterwards

And Noelle kinda has to do the quick swap thing for energy alone which is both a blessign and a curse

But you can ofc still just use GMC as a generic Support for Itto, just don't know how good it is. Still have to calc that

[storm tulip]

? bennet never out buffs gorou for itto comp if they are at the same constellation level

it would be possible if bennet could buff anyone else that is not itto too

but then you arent buffing itto

gorou can buff your other chars and itto

[reef stump]

T13 Aquila Bennett can:

But the difference is so small its not worth doing unless you have other units benefitting from Bennett over Gorou

[storm tulip]

it is basically the same but then gorou gets to buff other chars

and you cant have other units benefitting from bennet without comprimising uptime

while with gorou he can benefit them always

[reef stump]

Which is what I stated

[storm tulip]

and what I said too

also it is purely talent 13 bennet

which is a waste of a crown

both him and gorou

t12 vs t12 bennet never wins even just for itto

[reef stump]

Now thats just unnecessarily nitpicky, but if you want to play that game:

Not sure what the point is though. Since I myself refuted that Bennett being minimally ahead for Itto specifically on paper in some cases has practical value.

[storm tulip]

for me he never wins

probably artifact substat based

my itto likely has higher atk

[reef stump]

Might vary based on Subs, yeah

[frosty hill]

what talents should I prioritize on itto? autos, q, then e?

[hallow lark]

Is itto still good without zhongli with c0 gorou?

[dapper bramble]

itto not good main dps.

[ornate salmon]

i approve of this comment

what a fking ape

[dapper bramble]

like.. im so ded

[atomic sundial]

idk chief

I still don't have c6 Noelle

and I have a guaranteed Itto in like 50 something pulls

[atomic sundial]

hold on

this guy

looks familiar

is this the dude who said c6 Zhongli outDPS's c6 Itto

and the one who says Albedo is more DPS than Itto

[dapper bramble]

[teal sable]

support itto 💀

[dapper bramble]

probably doesnt know hitlag exist

he said c2 itto only playable as maindps

[atomic sundial]

this dude thinks

c6 Zhongli

is a dps

and that mihoyo buffing him was a mistake

just ignore his ass tbf

[untold badger]

I mean it's fun to read stuff like this

[tranquil widget]

obviously with up to 4 particles generated per E, sac gs support battery itto is the way to play him /s

[reef stump]

Meanwhile:
ZLs Pebble:

Ushi:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/792147187076694057/905633445923938384/3BE70435-4B29-44DF-AB58-C4E9FD67FD0C.gif

[steep marsh]

[reef stump]

I'm actually wondering if you can push Ushi far enough to speedrun with itto

[worldly mango]

That'd be one fast cow

xD

[reef stump]

Ushi has 0.5s cast time

if you can oneshot with it and end the chamber like that

that would have some comedic value

[real phoenix]

ushi aoe might be pain

[reef stump]

Yep

AoE radius didn't look terribly large

[worldly mango]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/879576002349629492/903841202443517952/902998334741041212.gif

[static mural]

ushi one shot showcase?

[nocturne sorrel]

don't you have to burst before ushi for that dmg

[reef stump]

Yes

[storm tulip]

you wont be getting any amazing speedruns with it, but some sub 20 clears are definitely on the table

[atomic sundial]

Ushi one shot mirror maiden

HAHAHAH

ah the dude is just historically dumb

[jolly dragon]

hey buddy i can 36* abyss

dies in cringe

[atomic sundial]

'hey buddy I can 36* Abyss'

while all the comments this dude drops points to him being a dolphin/whale who can afford to do that while shitting around anyway

[quaint locust]

omfg how down low can this guy go XD

[dapper bramble]

can someone check with his calc on average dmg with passive. why whiteblind > serpent spine?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLL4tOWLNl0

[quaint locust]

This isnt meant to answer your question (thats Zacks job lmao) but no cap, its likely he misinterpreted something about SS or didnt take its effect into account

On his "avg dmg with passive" page looks slightly more accurate but it should realistically beat r5 whiteblind

Dont take my word for it since im not giving numbers nor am i checking his numbers

He also believes that skyward pride outperforms SS which sounds weird in any dps based world

Except maybe on eula and beidou?

[storm tulip]

He is comparing r5 whiteblind full passive vs r1 SS to begin with, but ss should still be higher on average

He might be counting SS stacks without any prestacking and doing it throughout combo or just making a mistske with serpent spine in general I dont know

[reef stump]

Just the fact that he lists SoBP having Phys dmg% as a Pro for Itto should be an indicator of the reliability of that video.

[storm tulip]

Oh I realized what he is doing wrong

He only has 4pc HOOD active

Not 2 pc

[reef stump]

He generally has 0 DEF% Subs

[storm tulip]

Yeah

[reef stump]

He works only with a modicum of Crit Subs

[storm tulip]

He only has minimum crit subs

[reef stump]

Has completely deflated DEF

WHich also explains why WGS and the other ATK oriented 5* exist so close

The Calculator seems fine at face value

[storm tulip]

Yeah but the big thing is 2 pc HOOD not being active

[reef stump]

its just the user doing shit

[storm tulip]

Because the 54% def it provides even with 0 subs is enough to get an accurate weapon order even without any artifact subs

[reef stump]

Yeah

I also toggled Gorou Buffs and the difference in favor of SS starts to grow rapidly

which is what you'd expect

So the video is basically pushing an unrealistic narrative based on flawed Calc usage

[storm tulip]

Yeah he has awful ratios, substat selection and is using the calculator wrong to begin with

[unique rover]

Hmmm yalls conclusions are correct

Using my calc wo 2pc effect and gorou buff r5 wb comes up to r1 ss

[storm tulip]

Well he shows his math at the beginning and it just shows 24% def and 24% geo from artifacts, 2pc HOOD is definitely not active

(Not including main stats, he is still using def/geo/crit)

[lament hazel]

ayo hows itto?