Itto Thread

[reef stump]

Sometimes its redundant, somestimes it could sabotage

would unnecessarily limit usability imo

[storm tulip]

usability is already 0 or near it

but infusion would 100% make sense lore wise too

look at geovishaps, azhdaha

[worldly mango]

ooh yeah thats very true

[reef stump]

If you suggest a improved version I don't think saying the current version is even worse is the best argument

Its certainly thematic

but it should still be useful

[storm tulip]

I think it would be useful, places where it is not is versus elemental shields

where physical characters would be dead in the water regardless

like kaeya isnt doing anything with his autos vs a pyro mage anywyas

it is not because his autos are now pyro that he is suddenly worse than he was

[reef stump]

Looking at current elemental Teams

either you have the infusion or don't need it. With some fringe cases where a wrong infusion can be a problem

[storm tulip]

looking at current elemental teams it would be useful nowhere, because the good ones all have an infusion

like the reason for so many of these chars to infuse is to fix their split elemental scaling

and with geo resonance + the petra buff I am describing you would still at a bare minimum have 50% elemental bonus of the element you picked up

[reef stump]

It would have, yeah. Question is why include something that might have a higher chance fo being detrimental rather than being useful.

I'm certainly all for more ways to get infusions, but such a Set might not be the right place for it. Atleast not if its supposed to a Set that is supposed to make Geo more relevant in a Support capacity

[charred crag]

As someone who already runs Noelle mono geo (with c6 ning more often than GMC), I'm already excited for c6(hopefully, but not guaranteed since I'll only have about 160-170 wishes to blow) gorou and c0 itto.

Something I'm not sure about with what leaks we have of itto though, his atk speed mechanics aside the final charge CA has >2x the damage of his building-up CA damage. Is his playstyle likely to be trying to cap his strength charges and dumping, or maintaining low stacks and spending them as they come in? Trying to figure if his C1 is actually much of a buff to his overall dmg or if it could actually technically be a detriment as things stand.

[pearl bone]

Final CA abuse is not what MHY wanted you to do anymore, not since they buffed his normals

and u would gain stacks as you CA, it will be very jank trying to get a certain rotation going

i imagine

[reef stump]

Longer CA combos seem favorable. Doing N1CA to get more finishers doesn't seem worthwhile as every time you initate a CA combo you have a little forward dash that eats some time and the increased frequency of dashing creates an overhead that doesn't make it efficient to do

[charred crag]

Hm, fair. Didn't consider his CA dash

[pearl bone]

as someone who doesnt play Geo or Crystallize, it feels so unfair Kazuha just totally writes off an artifact like that, imagine someone who has farmed Petra for ages

[charred crag]

What MHY wants for a character and what ends up doing the most damage isn't always in line haha. Every single part of yanfei's kit goes against stacking pure EM and avoiding any source of crit rate, but her overload setup is comparable if not better than her vape setup.

So I wasn't sure if ignoring his supposed "right" way to play was still the way to go, even after considering the buffed his NAs to scale slightly better than noelles

[pearl bone]

oh yea, they are not very thorough with their game design, even more so lately

the way I see Itto C1 and C2 are they are supportive cons for his C6

for C0 get 2 CA sets in your Q and one E, and you're good to go

everything else is just optimisation or reset chamber kind of game

same like you can get 10N1C + burst on Tao, but you dont do that every single time you clear a chamber

[charred crag]

Nothing can handle one rotation of hutao without health gating/invuln window mechanics lol

Not when you're doing 110k+ CAs anyway

I already have c0+homa (and albedo) and I realized that c1 wouldn't really do much for me when nothing lives through a c0 combo(or two, since we still have 3 mins to clear) as it stands, so I feel comfortable hoarding for the very niche and non-transferable comp I'm looking forward to haha

[pearl bone]

if ur really looking into 'maining' Itto comp, shield breaking might actually be his biggest problem

shield breaking with Eula for example is a huge problem, even when you have Diona and Rosaria

the application rate of Diona/Rosaria is pretty slow, and enemies can iframe and move around

that kind of thing

[charred crag]

Ive 36* with mono geo on one side before, this team sounds a bit worse at (shield breaking specifically) but I also have the ability to run hutao, Raiden national, MorAYAYAna, etc where the comp just flat out won't work.

[pearl bone]

if ur a geo fan tho, im pretty sure u can make it work

[charred crag]

Yeah lol

[pearl bone]

it's just more a caution to someone who 'should I get into Itto and Geo'

[charred crag]

My Noelle pretty stronk with r5 SS and 4glad

[pearl bone]

i really want to pull Albedo for Noelle

[charred crag]

My albedo is 90 with t9 E, but his artifacts are dogshit. New domain will be the opportunity to get him some decent ones

That's his 2AP2defender with HoD propping up his crit ratio 🤣

[storm tulip]

you can always sub out albedo for someone else better at shield breaking if that is a concern

as I said earlier today, ning isnt even that far behind albedo if you still want for geo in overall team dps and she can chew through shields pretty quickly, just dont be afraid to use her Q for that purpose, especially in a itto comp

[pearl bone]

Xinyan is really good at stripping shields

Sunfire Itto doesnt sound too bad too

you still get Bennet to clear fast

[charred crag]

I think anyone is better than albedo at breaking shields xD

That's my alternate "steal ning and Noelle artis when your running zhong+albedo hutao" setup, I'm really looking forward to new set.

[storm tulip]

he is not too bad if your other teammates have some quickswap abilities for it since he can still cast E every 4 seconds

but geo in general is awful at breaking shield due to the nature of how the reaction decreases elemental gauge

[charred crag]

I think 1 geo proc per 4 seconds is still behind... everything else in the game is what I'm saying

[storm tulip]

so is anemo, but then anemo has swirls, so when AoE happens, they just fucking melt shields

another reason why geo needs a proper buff to its reaction system

[storm tulip]

not everything, but a lot of chars, yes

[charred crag]

Not to further derail an itto-focused TC thread though I guess xD

[low valve]

Sunfire itto?

[pearl bone]

Jean Bennet Itto Gorou, not really recommended as standard Itto comp, but people bring Sunfire (Jean-Bennet) to break herald shields

[ionic cape]

[proud leaf]

compared to the VV hutao team, itto teams will be much less complicated rotation-wise to play right?

[frigid hound]

Yes

[muted arrow]

in terms of support rotation about the same, in terms of dps execution itto is way way easier

than c0 ht

[frigid hound]

U just need to remember the order and not be aware of ICD and tight frames

[reef stump]

Only thing about Itto is that you need to puzzle his combos together on the fly since your Stacks can vary from rotation to rotation

[muted arrow]

yeah a miscalculation might cause you to get the final E wrong for example

[reef stump]

Missing the final E, ending on full Stacks, having time left over you can't use well since you made your previous combo too short

[muted arrow]

well we should be able to use the burst cd as a timer

[reef stump]

If you know the hitlag extension you will get yeah

[storm tulip]

You can also easily use the E as a timer

You will eventually know what combo you can do post second E according to your current stacks

[muted arrow]

yeah most people are gonna use E on CD anyway

in practice

[muted arrow]

@reef stump have you tested geo mc for the itto comp?

instead of a non geo 4th option alternative

[reef stump]

No shield

[muted arrow]

what I meant is itto gorou zl mc

[reef stump]

Not yet

But I'd imagine it would be quite rough since GMC realistically only gets 1 E per rot

not sure how the ER reqs look with that to Q every rot

also depends on how much microwave you are with that with ZL around

Don't have any experience with that, so need to look into microwave stuff more before I can even do a rudimentary Calc

[muted arrow]

well I'd assume you can constantly have 2-3 constructs on field + burst assuming boulder, itto and zl

it's also worth noting that taking advantage of microwave might be easier than usual thanks to itto E taunt

[reef stump]

Thats true

Its definitely worth investigating, as are quite a bunch of options in the face of Albedo + Itto in a single Patch being quite the strain on Primos

So the question how Itto comps look w/o Albedo is quite important

[muted arrow]

yep

[ancient pecan]

don't forget geo MC has energy refund in one of their constellations
depending on the number of enemies it can help quite a bit with their burst

[muted arrow]

I've played a bit of microwave

[ancient pecan]

i'm interested in itto without gorou c6
i wonder if there are better supports than him

[muted arrow]

for context I think geo's burst needs zhongli's burst a bit as petrify prevents opponents from being pushed around by the shockwaves

[ancient pecan]

in microwave ZL is built for damage so you want to use his burst anyways

my favorite microwave comp so far is ZL geo MC benny kaz quickswap
kaz helps a lot with keeping enemies inside the microwave

[muted arrow]

I think best course of action would be gorou E->zl EQ->mc EQ-> gorou Q-> itto

[ancient pecan]

seems good, you will need the buff refresh after the microwave setup

but i dunno, without c6 maybe you're better using fischl instead

or benny

[muted arrow]

yeah probably

[ancient pecan]

benny is worse for itto but he also buffs the microwave part of the team

[muted arrow]

but I think the perspective of having 10% crit rate and 40% crit damage from supports alone is quite appealing

[ancient pecan]

c6 gorou though

[reef stump]

If you use Benny you likely lose Buff Uptime on Itto if you wanna Buff ZL and GMCs Microwave setup

[muted arrow]

also let's say you put noblesse on gorou and millelith on zhongli

that surely benefits mc more than albedo

although on second thought noblesse on gorou wouldn't matter for mc

wait

[reef stump]

How many ticks of his Q does GMC usually get?

[muted arrow]

can you use gorou Q first and E after?

in the rotation

[reef stump]

If you Gorou Q first you lose 25% DEF on Itto

[muted arrow]

right

[reef stump]

Also not sure if you can even override Q with E

since Q says it destroys the regular Banner

Its basically like Fischl where you can E into Q but not Q into E if Oz is still up

[muted arrow]

I see

[muted arrow]

4

[reef stump]

Gotta see that I get to do a few Calcs this evening

[red umbra]

@reef stump Uhm, I heard you might have a spreadsheet for Itto burst rotation dps with and without Albedo?

[muted arrow]

so you are prob looking at 1700% mv per rotation with geo mc

but compared to albedo rotation is also likely a bit slower

maybe

there is also a factor of frustration if you place the boulder in a way the enemy ends up on top of it on spawn

although prob itto's hits are vertical enough they'd hit him regardless? idk

[reef stump]

Gorou you mean? Since Albedo doesn't affect what Itto does.
Newest version of my Sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FRBs_cNsi9eaOELHIOCtWSfFwhfWETK0lXj_gJU6vcQ/edit#gid=1146963229
As always take with a grain of salt since its pre-release and we can't prove if combos according to current frame counts actually translate into reality.

If you're looking for Albedo's dmg contribution:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/180g95hJ6spiACpAQnwsESxhIIWXbVHuauFJTDu_zCh0/edit#gid=0

Take note of the investment level however since it is really high.

For both Sheets

[muted arrow]

so just for theoretical comparison, albedo gets 2880% MV worth of E procs with all gorou buffs

right?

[reef stump]

9 Procs with Spindle are 2880% DEF MV, yes

[tidal violet]

Hello I’m gonna use SS for Itto and I’m worried rn, can crystallize shields be enough as shields for Itto? I’m not familiar with crystallize shields but turns out it scales in EM? How’s that going to work considering we stack the dugtrio with def?

[muted arrow]

lol geo mc + itto ascension + serpent spine + gorou c6 that's already 60/90 crit ratio right off the bat

100% crit rate is possible

[reef stump]

Crystallizes are not gonna be nearly as helpful as a regular shield is. There might be some ways to make Crystallizes sufficient but for regular play I'd recommend using a shielder int he 4th slot, preferably ZL.

[tidal violet]

Eh so no Fischl?

[reef stump]

Fischl isn't necessarily higher damage nor higher survivability, so there is no apparent reason why she would be better than ZL in that slot

[storm tulip]

you cant

you can override c6

but not the actual buff

[reef stump]

So Q -> E rotations are pretty much out of the question unless you magically make sitting there for 10s worhwhile.

[storm tulip]

yeah

well they work really well in quickswap with c2 since that is also an option

like zhong /gorou/ning/itto

[reef stump]

Noelle can use it I guess

[storm tulip]

yeah

[reef stump]

Itto QS sounds weird

[storm tulip]

c1 allows for it

well c2+c1

[reef stump]

C2 yeah. Not sure how worthwhile but I can see it being functional

Q E SCAX hop off

[storm tulip]

you just take advantage of your first charged rotation and ushi and then use ning/zhong/gorou and do a shorter rotation

[reef stump]

Wouldn't actually mind if that was a good way to play him. Sounds fun and shorter rotations are more versatile

[storm tulip]

I think ER wise ning/geo MC are definitely needed, but not sure how viable geo MC would be, ning is just a lot more damage

but maybe construct synergy pays off in this case

thing is he is also more energy intensive than ning

[reef stump]

Ning should take a good bit more time to do her thing though. Doesn't her C6 Burst Combo take like 5s?

[muted arrow]

mc refunds 5 energy for every opponent hit by his burst

doubt er is an issue for him

[storm tulip]

3.6 with proper cancels

[storm tulip]

Which is usually only 10-15 so he is still more energy intensive overall

[muted arrow]

yeah but does it realistically matter

[storm tulip]

Well yes, 10 energy is a full elemental skill worth of energy in their case

[muted arrow]

it's more in the lines of, how much er would he require then

how much more er than ning specifically

[reef stump]

EQECA is jsut 3.6s? That would be pretty damn good

[storm tulip]

EQCAE

[reef stump]

Or that way around

[storm tulip]

It has to be that way for a proper cancel

[reef stump]

Thats only about 1.6s overhead, pretty good for the MV

[mystic fox]

is zhongli even used in itto teams if gorou/albedo have better synergy and last slot is reserved for crystallize

[reef stump]

ZL > Crystallize in all likeliness. There might be some scenarios where you can get by with just Crystallize but the actual dmg gain of using a Sub DPS over ZL is questionable

[mystic fox]

so the added utility gorou gets from crystallize is less important than zhongli?

cool

i feel like the cap on geo constructs could be quite irritating in 4geo comp

especially with c1 zhongli

guess i'll find out

[reef stump]

Gotta see how hitlag extension and such looks for Itto, but risking losing Geo Resonance shouldn't be worth getting a little more uptime at the end. C6 Gorou in particular also has an independent duration looking at the description so that part shouldn't even be affected by his C2.

[mystic fox]

in terms of investment, would you prioritise weapon over constellations after getting c0?

[reef stump]

Depends on the weapon you have available

[storm tulip]

I'd always say constellations due to double dipping tbh

because of gorou

unless you got his c6 before itto c0 obviously

[mystic fox]

i have R5 SS but the stats on the signature weapon seem to synergise so well

[reef stump]

R5 SS is only 4-5% behind R1 Redhorn

[mystic fox]

hm

[reef stump]

So unless you can't stand the stacking mechanic Cons should be more valuable at that point

[mystic fox]

makes sense

the 20% attack/defense cons is c4 right? i kinda want it for hybrid albedo

[reef stump]

For like WB I would have seriously considered the weapon but R5 SS is already such a huge powerhouse

Yeah thats C4

[mystic fox]

hm

i will consider budget after he's released and the reviews start coming in

[reef stump]

Not sure what your mileage on hybrid Albedo really is tbh. Casting Albedo Q might not necessarily be worth in an Itto Team and Spindle tanks Q value, while actually being capable fo beating R1 PJC.

[mystic fox]

i have c3 with PJC and very high investment

i think the plan is just to do burst rotations tbh

[reef stump]

Itto is pretty field time greedy. Ofc need to see how it is on release to be sure but an Albedo Q would likely extend the rotation and would need to be REALLY chunky to be worth that. But that can ofc happen with C2 and target advantage in AoE.

[mystic fox]

as for the new artifact set, would it be used on itto/albedo with ToM/noblesse on zhongli/gorou?

or does gorou run it too

[reef stump]

Seems likely. Gorou dmg is not gonna be worth investign much in so just with NO makes the msot sense

Whether you want to also run ToM or just build ZLs dmg can depend on how stacked your ZL is with regards to damage assuming you want to get his Q out

[mystic fox]

cool i will transfer albedo's noblesse pieces to gorou while farming then

[reef stump]

NO/ToM are roughly 3% more dmg on Itto

each

[mystic fox]

i am running burst build with ESF 4p atm on zhongli

will probably just keep it instead of farming ToM from scratch

[reef stump]

Farming from scratch would be nonsensical yeah

not enough benefit

[mystic fox]

he is stacked so

itto will justify all my geo investment finally

[storm tulip]

I think ToM would likely be the highest damage investment on zhongli while retaining the necessary shield tankiness for a 20 second rotation, even with itto being tankier

[mystic fox]

shield tankiness is so irrelevant

where is zhongli shield breaking even at 30k hp

[storm tulip]

when it is being cast every 20 seconds instead of every 12

against a lot of things to be honest

[reef stump]

If you already have a ToM Set maybe, but farming a new one just for that is definitely not worth

[storm tulip]

I mean is farming 2 noblesse 2 petra worth?

not really

[mystic fox]

with shield refresh on burst is basically impossible to have downtime

ESF exists now luckily

dont need to farm for petra at all

[storm tulip]

at least 3/4 pieces of this ToM build can be used in a regular zhong ToM build

[storm tulip]

you have downtime

because itto doesnt allow you to cast it

you only get 1 ability per 20 seconds

be it zhong Q or zhong hold E

or albedo E

etc.

[reef stump]

Itto behaves like Xiao field time wise

[storm tulip]

yeah

[reef stump]

you don't get to quick swap around

[mystic fox]

so you refresh buffs and sit on field with itto for 15 seconds

[storm tulip]

pretty much

[mystic fox]

i still dont see shield breaking but guess i'll find out

is itto's field duration just the duration of gorou's burst?

[storm tulip]

slightly longer

gorou burst lasts for 9 seconds+2 extra after Q ends, up to 12.5+2 at c2 with crystallize pick ups

itto seems to have around 12-13 seconds of Q uptime due to hitlag+1.5 seconds of Q cast animation

we are saying he takes around 14 seconds field time and then rotation of gorou E-> albedo E -> zhong E(or E+Q if c2) -> gorou Q is 6 seconds (5.4, but close enough to say 6, with c2 zhong actually being 6.1 seconds)

[mystic fox]

so gorou e is never used if ER is high enough

[reef stump]

Gorou E is to snapshot Albedo

[storm tulip]

no, i fucked up I wrote itto instead of gorou

[storm tulip]

and zhong

[mystic fox]

ah

so you use gorou E to give albedo the buffs

and then gorou Q to give itto the buffs for his burst duration

[reef stump]

Gorou E for the Supports, Gorou Q for the big showtime, yep

[storm tulip]

yup, also keeps c6 up for the support rotation

also gorou E is to also... you know

snapshot gorou

(hopefully)

mihoyo please dont fuck him more damage wise

at least give him snapshot

[mystic fox]

so you are basically immobile from casting gorou E until switching to Itto

if you are spamming through all your support abilities inside gorou E

[reef stump]

Given I calced him with HooD and full uptime on his own Buff and got 82k at the end with very high investment her better snapshot himself lol

[reef stump]

Gorou E zone is as large as Ganyu/Kazuha Q

[mystic fox]

o that's quite big

[reef stump]

So you have quite a lot of space

[storm tulip]

i mean as immobile as you are in any bennet comp, but in a larger circle comparatively

[mystic fox]

seems like the biggest bottleneck to 4geo will be getting onset def% timepieces

feelsbadman

[reef stump]

Farming 2 Full HooD Sets is definitely "interesting"

[storm tulip]

is it any different than farming emblem guys lets be fair here

raiden national uses 3 sets of the thing

[reef stump]

No but I have only 1 workable Emblem Set that is just barely worth using on Raiden

[mystic fox]

same

[reef stump]

and I've been living there for 2 months

[mystic fox]

i only just finished farming raiden's 4ESF too

[patent galleon]

cant be worse than Emblem tbh

[storm tulip]

yeah that is what I'm saying

you also even get to convert all the shit pieces

to farm noblesse for gorou

[reef stump]

2 of the same Set is always painful, not saying its worse, just bad in general

[mystic fox]

into noblesse which is kinda falling out of meta

[storm tulip]

no

noblesse is just a thing one character needs per team

[mystic fox]

i already have the noblesse set fully farmed for gorou luckily

from albedo pieces

[storm tulip]

it was just "better" before

because we didnt have any decent damage options for burst oriented characters

or even just in general

[reef stump]

I still find plenty of use for NO, would be less if I actually had multiple good EoSF Sets but it is what it is

Rather a great mixed Set than a shit EoSF

[mystic fox]

i should probably start farming the beetles

sigh

[reef stump]

Revenge of the Oni Kabuto's

[rigid bay]

Imagine not already having 200 bugs ready for Itto

The bugs honestly is only a pain for the initial run since you personally don't know where they are, but once you do it at least once, you'll remember it and things speed up a fair bit

And not being on fucking mountain walls like certain flower

[static mural]

so u raised qiqi

[nocturne sorrel]

or xinyan

violetgrass must be cursed

[sharp sinew]

I stopped leveling up Xinyan because of Violet Grass

Used to play her when I was AR45

[atomic sundial]

the bugs are kinda annoying tho

bcs theyre on trees

I have like 90 rn

[frigid hound]

Just use the lazy route

Or do the oni kabuto cave below tenshukaku 2 times a week

[sharp sinew]

There's a lot in tatarasuna afaik

[tidal violet]

For the Itto SS users what are yo plans for flex? I’m going for Itto-Albedo-Gorou-Fischl but going in with an SS, I’m starting to wonder whether I should just use whiteblind instead or risk for redhorn

[hasty quail]

i'm gonna use zhongli

[storm tulip]

whiteblind has an even bigger stacking issue

you honestly just need zhongli or diona/xinyan for serpent spine imho

[tidal violet]

My Diona's using Ayaka though. I have C2 Xinyan but unbuilt. Won't putting a shielder mean I'm cutting his damage potential though? I was planning on getting Fischl for flex but realized that the crystallized shields may not suffice to keep the SS stacks :(

[storm tulip]

zhongli is his best teammate damage wise for the comp, but if crystallize doesnt allow for serpent spine stacks to be kept (especially since itto has like 6 seconds of field time where oz wont be there to even give crystallize reactions) you really need an actual dedicated shielder

with redhorn this wouldnt be an issue obviously, it is basically cause serpent spine stacks are super important

[tidal violet]

Is Albedo worth skipping for a guaranteed Redhorn?

Because I'm currently guaranteed with 70 pity. I'm assuming I can get either Albedo in just 10 pulls. If that happens the only chance I can get Redhorn is if I can win the 50/50 early in Itto's but if not I have to settle with SS

[storm tulip]

albedo is way more damage than redhorn, if you dont have zhongli/dont want to use xinyan/diona other options also consist of xingqiu and beidou as better crystallize enablers

[tidal violet]

Beidou? Wait how

[storm tulip]

xingqiu deals comparable damage to fischl within the rotation

[tidal violet]

I can use Xinyan just that I would have to build her from scratch

At what talent level I can cap Xinyan's?

[storm tulip]

and beidou has obviously better damage than fischl vs 2+ targets if she is c2, but beidou requires favonius greatsword in the comp pretty much

[tidal violet]

Oh I only got sac greatsword I think

But I do have her in C2

Let me check if I have fav gs

If I do decide to use Xinyan over Beidou, how would that work? Shield bot?

[storm tulip]

it would need testing but shield bot is a safe assumption

[tidal violet]

ahh true..

[storm tulip]

if xinyan is c2 I can likely see shield bot 4pc ToM to guarantee good shield from the Q cast

but all of these options require live testing

[tidal violet]

Okii. So far Itto SS options are Diona/Xinyan/Beidou right

[storm tulip]

xingqiu too, because of damage reduction 100% crystallize reaction enabling and still decent damage even if you are not normal attacking much

and obviously the best one serpent spine or not is zhongli

[tidal violet]

I wanna use either Xq or Diona too but Ayaka has them

[ancient pecan]

tbh if you just need the damage reduction and crystallize enabler full ER beidou might be worth a shot

she will hit like a wet noodle but hey you still get crystallize shards and some tankyness

she even has a built in shield at c1 to instantly turn on the geo resonance damage bonus

[nocturne sorrel]

and you can even swap to beidou for quick counters at any time if you replace itto with noelle

[ancient pecan]

in a noelle comp i would just use fischl instead
she doesn't need the damage resist
or just drop gorou/albedo and go with fischl + beidou

[storm tulip]

but why would I want to lose most of my damage

[ancient pecan]

probably not a very good idea tbh

[storm tulip]

in a noelle comp you would just use xingqiu

cause she actually uses xingqiu properly

and she lacks the single target focus

[ancient pecan]

uh i dunno
i'd say fischl is better

low field time, good damage, easy A4 triggers

XQ by himself doesn't really do much and isn't enabling anything for noelle

[storm tulip]

yes a4 triggers

one per 3 seconds

[red umbra]

How does Itto SS + Geo MC fav + Gorou fav + Zhong fav sound for Energy regen?

[storm tulip]

no, he is just better damage than fischl is the thing

[red umbra]

would sac sword/bow be better?

[storm tulip]

way too much

[ancient pecan]

are you sure? can you sustain solo XQ without hurting his damage?

[storm tulip]

you only need gorou with fav bow on that

[red umbra]

What should Geo MC run

I don't want to rlly pull for Albedo since I have 90 wishes and am at 45 pity

[ancient pecan]

festering desire, the inazuma craftable, lion's roar maybe if your 4th member is pyro/electro

[red umbra]

And want to pull for Gorou cons as well

[storm tulip]

yes, dude sustains himself pretty much, you run sac or fav sword with emblem and that is enough to outdamage fischl since you arent really abusing a4 either way

[ancient pecan]

[storm tulip]

well, at c6

before c6 his damage is obviously not ideal

[ancient pecan]

well EoSF is a thing that's true

[red umbra]

Any other good options?
I don't have festering and I want my amenoma to stay on Jean

[storm tulip]

he already ran atk sands before EoSF with sac sword

for full uptime

[ancient pecan]

the 3* crit sword

[storm tulip]

EoSF is just extra damage

[red umbra]

Should Zhong have black tassel or Fav spear?

[ancient pecan]

how much ER are you running on XQ?

[storm tulip]

he should run damage and a damage build

[ancient pecan]

shieldbot or damage? black tassel is only good for shieldbot

fav is... ok for damage ZL

[storm tulip]

itto/gorou comps are ridiculously tanky, shield bot zhongli is actually a waste

[ancient pecan]

shield bot ZL is always a waste unless you keep him at like lv60 with poverty artifacts and low level talents

[red umbra]

so ToM zhong or 2p petra 2p Noblesse ?

[storm tulip]

true I just didnt want to start a whole conversation about it, because there is always that guy

[storm tulip]

ToM

[ancient pecan]

you're pairing him with geo MC right?

[red umbra]

yes

[ancient pecan]

then go with 4p ToM or 2p petra 2p gladiator/ToM

[red umbra]

Since I don't have enough for both Itoo and albedo

[ancient pecan]

with geo MC his pillar damage actually matters

[storm tulip]

ToM is barely behind petra/noblesse and it increases your whole team dps and tankiness

[ancient pecan]

yep
but if you already have a decent 2p petra 2p glad/ToM you can use that just fine and save your resin for other stuff imo

[storm tulip]

for pillar damage it is actually ahead

[red umbra]

What would his stat priority be

I have weird Millelith pieces

[storm tulip]

hp/geo/crit or atk/geo/crit

[red umbra]

Hp% main with crit substats

circlet

[storm tulip]

atk is probably enough for this comp and is more damage, but that is really up to you, difference isnt that big between the 2 anyways

[ancient pecan]

personally i'm using 2p petra 2p EoSF because i have literally 5% ER from subs and the EoSF rolled a lot of crit

[ancient pecan]

yep, substats matter more

the piece with more crit is usually better

[tidal violet]

Hi I'm back. How about Itto RH + Geo MC + Gorou + flex. Would that work, assuming I choose to skip Albedo? (Which tbh is highly unlikely since I like Albedo)

[muted arrow]

@tidal violet I'd say you skip horn and pull albedo lmao

[charred crag]

Has there been any demonstration of the husk set? I'm curious how it works compared to how it's worded/how it's going to impact setup and snapshotting on itto and albedo.

especially if you need to stack up SS on itto, it seems pretty hard to make sure the 4p is up and rolling in order to snapshot the def>atk conversion of his Q

[reef stump]

SS can be pre-stacked and you will simply miss out on the DEF of HooD on the first rot, still get the Geo dmg though since that part won't snap and then have 3/4 Stacks from the second rotation onwards, since you only lose 1 Stack at a time rather than all at once.

[charred crag]

I'm not sure if it's a passive "gains 1 stack/3s while off field", or if stacks are gained from off field when geo damage belonging to the character is done, i.e. albedo or zhongli or gorou (Q) off field damage.
if it's the former, albedo can be at full stacks while pre-stacking SS on itto, but it also makes it a strange 3s-6s-3s cycle where it forever maintains 3-4 stacks

[storm tulip]

english is incorrect

it has a period instead of the semicolumn chinese has

it should be "...triggering a max of once every 0.3s; when off the field, 1 stack can be gained per 3 seconds. Curiosity...." to be like chinese

[charred crag]

I figured that would be more likely

[storm tulip]

did you see the gorou Q into itto transition in the new video

less than one second until you can swap (well, from the animation itself, obviously swap cooldown is still a thing when gorou isnt already on field)

[tidal violet]

Can 4ToTM Fischl solve the problem that Itto SS may face, since shield strength is inherently made stronger?

[tidal violet]

I realized Xinyan can be a good shield bot for Itto SS since she uses the 4ToTM very well like Zhong but my worries is that she takes couple of seconds of field time from Itto since you have to slap enemies to get her shield to "level 3"

But I might be having a poor take

[atomic sundial]

she needs to hit enemies all at once for her shield with the initial E strike

[hexed ridge]

I was initially considering Xinyan too, her shield should be sturdy enough with Gorou buffs to sustain Itto and she enables continuous crystallize procs. The big issue though is her lackluster particle generation which means she requires lots of ER while simultaneously increasing Itto's ER requirement compared to other options

You can build her with lots of ER/Def, but at that point you're better off using someone else as her damage will be non-existent

[hexed ridge]

I suppose you can run Favonius Xinyan with a Def/Def/Def build. You'll get a guaranteed Favonius proc from her ult every rotation and a ~12k HP shield with a 12s duration. You'll get more DPS out of running ZL in that slot, but it's a fine alternative I guess

[tidal violet]

I actually just realized that since it was said to utilize her shield completely she gotta slap 3 or more opponents for level 3 shield. That alone takes time from Itto & I don't want that

Can 4ToTM Fischl suffice though

[storm tulip]

The issue is not shield strength or tankiness, well it kinda is but it goes deeper than that

It is due to itto having half of his field time without oz being on field

[hexed ridge]

If you want to actually use Xinyan, you want her at C2 at the very least. With C2 you can reliably get a level 3 shield every rotation

[storm tulip]

So you need a single crystallize shield to last for around 6-8 seconds which is unrealistic, especially since ToM will wear off

[tidal violet]

noooo

[tidal violet]

I do want to use Xinyan but not this way. This is more like "I don't have a choice" scenario if 4ToTM Fischl won't work

I need that RH, at least my dilemma with SS stacks will dissapear with it

[hexed ridge]

I get you, Itto's team building is giving me headaches too

At this point I don't think there's any way around using a shielder as the 4th unit on the team, if you want something semi reliable

[storm tulip]

There are a couple more options

Xingqiu, beidou, ganyu are the main 3

[hexed ridge]

It's hard to predict how impactful his increased defense is going to end up being, for me at least. Personally I somewhat doubt that teams without a dedicated shielder/healer are going to be viable

even if it's XQ/Beidou adding some sustain

[storm tulip]

But zhongli is just the ideal teammate as with any geo comp

There is really no way to go around him with any of them tbf

[tidal violet]

Is Beidou shield sturdy enough to keep ss stacks?

I like her tbh so building her won't be a heartbreak for me. Been using her for daily comms just for the friendship card

But her shield as of now on my account is so soft

[hexed ridge]

It's 16% max HP only iirc

[storm tulip]

Not at all he takes 46% of the damage a regular melee carry would, so you can count on shields on him to be twice as strong

Basically you can go grab your xingiu and test crystallize strength with his damage reduction up, that is how strong his crystallize shields will be

[tidal violet]

True. Tbh in a day or two if there's no concrete answer on my concerns which I completely understand. I'll just hold off the pre-building for flex and focus on pre-farming talent books and other paraphernalias

[storm tulip]

Not enough to last the whole rotation, but she enables crystallize better than fischl and more importantly for a longer time, so I do think beidou will be enough or at least only lose you 1 stack which you will regain and then lose next rotation

Basically you will be in a loop of 4-5-4 stacks during itto rotation which is more than fine

This is obviously just how i see it in my mind and obviously might work differently, the thing is it is hard to judge how actual combat scenarios will end up playing out

[hexed ridge]

I'd assume it's going to end up being personal preference to some degree. I play a lot of Eula/Diona in abyss and I definitely couldn't imagine playing that team if Diona only had her shield and no healing

My Diona shields for around 11k I think with pretty high investment, so everything below ~15k effective HP shields on Itto isn't going to work for me without healing I think

which would mean 7.5k base shield

[storm tulip]

No, less than that a bit

Geo resonance gives you 15% shield strength too

So, around 6.5k

[hexed ridge]

A Beidou shield is probably pretty close to that

[storm tulip]

For 15k on itto you would need 40% hp from substats which is quite a bit of investment, especially considering her ER requirements on the comp

This is taking her damage reduction into account

Oh also I forgot to mention the other obvious candidate

Which is raiden

Since hers is the only other turret that lasts through rotation and the only one that is elemental

With an E oriented build if it is hitting 2 enemies consistently she ends up outdamageing fischl, but barely

Also, barbara works as a worse version of xingqiu too for crystallize enabling

[hexed ridge]

The crystallize uptime is gonna be really good, yeah. But you'll still end up running a team comp that requires a lot of skill to pull off, you can't really slack off and continuously tank boss hits

It's very much high risk with medium reward I think. How much do you even gain by running Beidou/XQ/Raiden instead of just a dedicated shielder like ZL/Diona/Xinyan? It can't be too much, right?

[storm tulip]

That is always the case when zhongli is not involved in an itto comp

Well xingqiu is just better than all the other shielders tankiness wise

Crystallize shields from 125 EM (which albedo by himself provides)
Have around 11k effective hp on itto and you would refresh them consistently

It doesnt allow you to tank the big boss hits but it does allow you to keep tanking consistently

[ocean bison]

Is the unforged any good for itto?

[spiral isle]

no it boosts attack which he does not need

[tribal osprey]

Unforged is just as good as any other 5*, which is not very

[low valve]

theoretically what about skyward pride?

i mean cus it works with noelle

[spiral isle]

Skyward Pride could work but there’s a f2p option that is miles ahead of it so there’s no point

[twin abyss]

What's the f2p option

[unique rover]

White blind

[twin abyss]

Is it much better than pride?

[pulsar plaza]

does anyone have any ideas about itto and his strengths compare dot other chars?

[unique rover]

Not sure because I haven't calced yet, but white blind's sub and passive all benefit itto

Cons: being geo

That's all I can say for now

[pulsar plaza]

Awesome ty!

[unique rover]

Wait

He also revolves in geo teams(fully/majorly) and would want to stick with gorou,

[pulsar plaza]

Hmm

I'm considering getting him since my first main was Ning and it feels bad to have on the bench since 1.3

However I could just wait for eula instead, they seem similar gameplaywise

I wonder which one is better

[storm tulip]

Tbf he revolves around geo teams as much as any other dps revolves around bennet if you really want to compare it that way

He does want geo resonance like any other geo dps, but he could just run 2 geo and 2 flex as well

In fact gorou and bennet are around the same buff for him (gorou being very slightly better) until gorou is c6 where bennet cannot compete anymore

It is more so back to the original con:being geo

Which means that his support selection is narrow and you basically have 4 non geo characters that interact in a meaningful way with him at base kit

[twin abyss]

Passive gives 8% extra damage

and reduces ER requirements

[ancient pecan]

considering gorou before c6 is comparable to benny, has anyone compared the team damage output of microwave (ADC ZL + geo MC + benny) vs albedo + gorou pre-c6 + flex?

[red umbra]

What's the optimal crit rate on itto

[reef stump]

100%

[red umbra]

How about 97%

[reef stump]

Itto has no special Crit interactions so you just go for the best ratio you can get

[ancient pecan]

just go for 1:2 until you start getting close to crit cap, then focus only on cdmg

[red umbra]

70/180 without serpent spine

[reef stump]

3% below ideal

[ancient pecan]

that should be fine
remember crit buffers exist (geo MC is one) and abyss cards are a thing

[reef stump]

If you wanna try hard 76% is ideal since you can get 3 8% CR Abyss Cards

[red umbra]

Geo mc could work

[reef stump]

Ofc he does, but its not like you actually need 100% CR

[red umbra]

Problem is getting SS

Or wait on a jade claymore

[reef stump]

If you can't/ don't want to buy the BP I'd wait till release to see if his Q DEF conversion snapshots, since if it does your next best laternative to SS is likely going to be Blackcliff among 4*s

[reef stump]

I kinda doubt we will see many universal weapons like that anymore. And for Itto specifically Redhorn is basically a Jade Claymore

[red umbra]

Only 1 year of genshin has passed future banners will have greater weapons that will powercreep reach other

[reef stump]

Eventually thats possible but if they keep making specialized weapons like they are now there is no guarantee that there will be a universal Claymore thats as good as Redhorn for Itto

[ancient pecan]

eh sure but weapons like homa and redhorn are very hard to powercreep, specially for the characters they're designed for

[red umbra]

I already have r5 whiteblind

So the only solution is whale for redhorn in 100 pulls

That 88% cd is just dumb damage

[ancient pecan]

r5 whiteblind should be ok though

probably the best of the f2p weapons

[reef stump]

If you can whale for Redhorn you can also get SS for a lot cheaper. But you have tosee whats the best plan for you

[red umbra]

If they put freedom sworn and redhorn I wouldn't mind tho

[reef stump]

If Itto snaps his DEF conversion WB goes down into the gutter pretty much

Ofc still better than the ATK% Claymores and such

but its really far behind R1 SS at that point

[ancient pecan]

i mean sure it loses some value
but still beats all other f2p options

[red umbra]

99% defence and 48% atk is bad

[reef stump]

Blackcliff beats it w/o DEF Stacks for the conversion

[ancient pecan]

with the passive active? and by how much?

[reef stump]

You will almost never have the DEF from the Passive if Itto snaps

[red umbra]

Huh

Just atk 4 times

[ancient pecan]

snapshot

[reef stump]

costs you too much DPS

and WB only lasts 6s so you will have a hard time maintaining Stacks across rotations

Its not really an issue for Noelle since she can swap freely

but Itto can't

[red umbra]

Same kinda goes for ss for the stacks and if you get hit

Red horn is just too op

[reef stump]

SS is easy to protect with a shield you want anyway

R5 WB is ofc still fine all in all, but it looks fairly close to 0 Stack Blackcliff if I assume full uptime on the 48% ATK and 12% DEF.

Which would be N1 -> Q to get 1 Stack

If you can do rotations quick enough to carry Stacks over it comes close to R1 SS again but thats seems tricky

or extends rotation time which is unlikely to be worthwhile

To put some numbers on the table

R1 SS is ~6.4% above idealized R5 WB and 13,5% above scuffed R5 WB

[red umbra]

Can you use PayPal on battlepass?

[reef stump]

On the PC client you can

Unbuffed the gap is smaller as Gorou inflates DEF

R1 SS 2.4% above idealized R5 WB and 10.5% above scuffed R5 WB

And each refinement on SS is a bit over 2% more dmg

[twin abyss]

how much better is redhorn over SS

[reef stump]

R1 Redhorn finally being 4-5% above R5 SS. So the total gap between R5 Redhorn to idealized R5 WB is (unbuffed/Buffed) 17%/20.5% and to scuffed R5 WB 26%/28,7%

[reef stump]

R1 Redhorn is 4-5% better than R5 SS and about 15% better than R1 SS under current assumptions

[twin abyss]

That's pretty huge

[muted arrow]

looks similar to pine for eula for me

[reef stump]

The difference is pretty much in-line with what you get out of a BiS 5*. But its ofc quite strong given how good R5 SS already is overall.
Technically the gap can be even larger in favor of Redhorn if you don't use E during Q. But from current dmg calcs it looks highly desirable.

[twin abyss]

Only problem I have with redhorn is that it's not as versatile as other weapons like homa or jade cutter

[lament hazel]

yeah

but its a good stat stick

[ancient pecan]

should be good on itto, noelle, c6 xinyan and maybe razor
its main issue is that it's competing against one of the release mistakes (SS) so it looks worse than it is

btw how much damage should we expect from albedo after 2.3 releases? with the new artifact set + his personal weapon

and gorou buff

[reef stump]

my T10 30 Perfect Subs Albedo Calc has roughly 334k DPR with T13 C6 Gorou and Geo Reso. If you add ZL shred its another 10% so around 370k. He is roughly 40% of Itto's personal dmg in those Calcs.

[ancient pecan]

have you calc'd microwave ZL by any chance?

[reef stump]

Not yet, wanted to get around to calcing GMC, ZL and Ning but haven't gotten around to it yet

[ancient pecan]

you mean the three together + benny or as a monogeo comp with itto?

[reef stump]

Just the individuals for one. Piecing them together to ballpark Team DPR isn't very difficult afterwards

[ancient pecan]

ahh i see

[reef stump]

Since the burden of Resonance is on ZL alone I can just look at different amounts of pulses with no issue

[ancient pecan]

once you know his pulse damage it's kinda easy to calc his theoretical maximum or a more realistic approach with 3 or 4 pulse hits

[reef stump]

Yeah

only thing is

that even some roughl ballparks will come with a ton of idp

Geo MC only gets to E once per rot with Itto

[ancient pecan]

yep not sure if that hurts the team's energy generation

[reef stump]

So if you constructs gets smashed you drop pretty hard and you have a lot of wind-up

[ancient pecan]

ZL's energy gen should be reliable with microwave getting multiple hits per pulse

[reef stump]

I'm just gonna ballpark energy since Itto already runs around with only 4 Subs atm

ZL is gonna need none

[ancient pecan]

there is also the issue of skill construct limit
i hope itto's cow bypasses it because it's considered a summon instead or something

[reef stump]

GMC no idea, gotta see

[ancient pecan]

in fact if itto's cow doesn't bypass the construct limit it would make ZL's C1 useless because it would destroy one of the pillars

assuming you do something like pillar > rock > pillar > itto

[reef stump]

Mhy's way to tell you go play Dugtrio

and don't use other stuff

[ancient pecan]

[reef stump]

But there is generally a bunch of stuff to look at with regards to comps

For Albedo-less stuff

and potentially even just Duo-Geo

Technically you can also play full Hyper Itto with Itto/Gorou/ZL/Bennett

[ancient pecan]

true

cow + flower + pillar is 3 constructs so it's not even that bad for ZL

[reef stump]

Itto/Gorou or ZL/XL/Bennett also on the list

Itto/Gorou or ZL/Fischl/Beidou also

[ancient pecan]

this is kinda like taking noelle comps and replacing her with itto

[reef stump]

Pretty much

Just that Noelle lets her Supports breathe and Itto is just greedy af

[ancient pecan]

i wonder if you can do cryo resonance itto with rosa

[reef stump]

Possible yeah, but no idea if its worthwhile

[ancient pecan]

it's free crit, and if you don't use ZL you can use diona to heal and shield

[reef stump]

Might aswell add it to the list of Geo Duos

Not very complex afterall

Just need to adjust Itto's CR for that since he has 90% CR in my Calcs xD

And Gorou generally can just run Petra in any case its worthwhile over NO

Although I practically don't ever see a scenario where its truly worth to farm a Petra Set for Gorou as long as you have units to build that actually do damage

[ancient pecan]

i'm not sure if it's the best team comp for damage tbh
but considering most itto comps lack a proper shield and healer cryo resonance with diona seems like a good support combo

he also scales better with crit than atk so i imagine cryo resonance > pyro

[reef stump]

Cryo Reso is neat yeah

more concerned with overall Team DPS but gotta see how it looks

I'm probably not gonna go super in-depth and make it a bit more superficial

But it should be a good ballpark

What interests me beyond just Itto comps is if there is a point where you are better off with Noelle if you play with more notable Sub DPS that can take advantage of Noelle's flexibility

I have no doubts Itto beats her in personal damage at this point but Noelle with C6 Gorou looks very respectable nontheless

[storm tulip]

it is around the same, the defense stacks still help the ascension passive, but this is also no stacks blackcliff, basically 1 stack and from then on on that encounter whiteblind will always be behind

I think the main draw of noelle is exactly the subdps potential you open up, but she also requires slightly more ER than itto (just slightly because while she does not produce energy herself she allows for her supports to use their cooldowns better), but she also has longer downtime than itto has for that to be a thing

So careful considerations need to be seen if the extra subdps potential is worth the reduced main dps damage, both from less damage in kit and less field time window per rotation to dish out damage

[charred crag]

I tend to agree, especially with a well-invested Noelle. I think Noelle will still have a niche beyond "weaker itto that also heals" and can work with gorou in some comps that itto can't, especially since she maintains her ult between swaps and can have an ult uptime longer than it's CD.

[red umbra]

How do u have so much crit rate

[charred crag]

r5 SS

[red umbra]

Er sands would be good on Noelle R5 whiteblind?

[charred crag]

maybe, but that's more ER than noelle should need if you have ning or GMC acting as battery

[red umbra]

I just need a crit rate claymore

And a better sands

[charred crag]

that's a pretty good sands

[red umbra]

Every other pc is perfect

[charred crag]

I'm not sure if new set will be functionally better for noelle than 4p gladiator, since she has the same problem as itto with snapshotting before she can do enough geo dmg to stack it

the geo% portion won't be an issue for snapshotting, so it's hard to say

[red umbra]

Mine is like 51/180 with no er

Or I can get albedo and just give him jade cutter with 80/200 so much to decide

[turbid dagger]

What's everyone thinking of fourth slot in Dugtrio?

Is it kinda just flex, is Zhongli good in there for just mono Geo?

[charred crag]

I plan on keeping it mono-geo personally, but that's because I love mono geo already

[red umbra]

Childe for passive

[turbid dagger]

Just wondering if someone like Beidou might slot in. Could always use some extra AoE.

Or maybe Fischl?

[reef stump]

Yeah, I get 0 STack Blackcliff 1.5% below scuffed R5 WB. So from 1 Stack onwards at any refinement Blackcliff pulls ahead as you say.
Noelle comp trade-offs are a very interesting and somewhat complex topic. I'm not even sure if Noelle pays with much field-time comparatively since she needs no Support rotations and can just weave Supports on the fly. So her cumulative field-time might still be 70%+ if you don't take super intensive Subs.

[charred crag]

As long as there aren't a lot of elemental shields to deal with, mono geo is more than strong enough, with either GMC or Ningguang as the flex. Gorou is going to take that and skyrocket it.

[red umbra]

I'll made up my mind going all in for redhorn even if I miss Itto

[reef stump]

ZL seems ideal atm.
For Crystallize or budget shields Beidou/Fischl/XQ/Xinyan/Rosaria can work aswell but their Sub DPS potential is very scuffed in an Itto comp.

[red umbra]

Time to start saving

[turbid dagger]

What about Chevy instead of GMC?

No, but thanks. That helps.

[charred crag]

albedo not proccing against shielded enemies exacerbates the weakness of relying solely on crystallize to drain shields unfortunately. That being said there's almost no team that is good for every situation, so I don't consider it a major downside to swap to another team when mono geo doesn't function the best.

[red umbra]

Mountain gale is the most universal comp

Geo and anemo

[storm tulip]

you still get 30% defense and 24% geo dmg vs 18% atk and 35% on normals first rotation, and from then on you always take advantage of the artifact set fully, so yes, I do think it will be functionally better

[storm tulip]

well her field time always is a bit less intensive because you need to generate more energy from them than itto requires, even if we take the 4 geo comp you still need to cast one extra gorou E per rotation so you have an extra swap there

Also the worthwhile supports to run while maybe not as intensive field time still are more intensive than itto's almost always, because itto comp is trying to optimize that as better as we can

[red umbra]

Imma do a experimental and raise favonious claymore

[storm tulip]

yeah, I love geo chars so mine are heavily invested, but I'm getting sub 1 minute clears with mono geo, it is just really nice and very energy efficient rotations with pretty much 0 ER on everyone

[charred crag]

Same in situations where I don't need to kill a lector/herald or can kill fatui before they armor up.

Or extremely uncooperative cryo cicin mages where the adds stay far away from one another

[red umbra]

https://genshin.honeyhunterworld.com/db/weapon/w_2312/?lang=EN
I need 1 more claymore billet for r5

[storm tulip]

I use ning instead of noelle, cryo cicin mages never live more than a couple seconds for me

I just use zhong Q and instantly delete them with ning rotation

I honestly think noelle is pretty underwhelming in mono geo currently, next patch she is getting a bunch of upgrades though

[reef stump]

Noelle's ST is pretty lackluster atm but has great AoE, she is basically the polar opposite of Ning who excels more in ST but lacks in AoE. And usually AoE situations are easier to solve than ST situations.

[storm tulip]

yes, but what does mono geo have right now?

it is AoE.team

ning brings target focus and honestly people completely underestimate her AoE

Jade screen has amazing AoE and you cast it twice

[ancient pecan]

you don't bring noelle to a ST fight

it's like bringing hu tao to a swarm floor and hoping she does well

my main issue with ning is how hard it is to get her constellations and how her jades sometimes go flying all over the place

[storm tulip]

i mean it is as hard as any other character

[ancient pecan]

ning has been featured in like 3 banners
and one of those was keqing's

[storm tulip]

and ning actually functions at c2 if that is the argument

[storm tulip]

4

[charred crag]

My Noelle does 24-37k hits in single target, ~+12k albedo hits, +any potential resonance hits. My ning is c6 and can routinely delete single targets with her* EQCAE burst rotation if the situation calls for it, but Noelle is fine doing single target in between Ning bursts.

[storm tulip]

yes, sure, but thing is

why do I give a fuck about the AoE scenarios in mono geo

when zhong albedo have that covered already

[reef stump]

I'm not disagreeing with you. As I said AoE checks are usually easier and even with considerable AoE you usually tend to want either strong CC or Burst to ensure enemies don't scatter before you're done with them. And Geo has means to do that w/o needing Noelle, while bursty ST is something only Ning can provide to that degree right now.

Its in part why I don't have avery high opinion of Xiao. I just don't think his niche is a very desirable one, even if it has decent consistency.

[charred crag]

I'm not sure how invested (or c2) your albedo and zhong are, but I don't really consider the aoe "covered" in the case of like 3x pyro agents or 2x kairagi situations

[storm tulip]

my albedo is c0, my zhong is c3

and again you are also acting like ningguang has actual 0 AoE

which isnt true in the slightest

[charred crag]

I really am not

Not sure why you're attacking a strawman when I'm saying Noelle performs better than you seem to think

[storm tulip]

I play them both

[charred crag]

As do I?

[storm tulip]

I know that my noelle performs very well

but in mono geo it is really underwhelming

compared to ning in the same slot

[charred crag]

What are you using in the fourth slot?

[ancient pecan]

i can kinda get what zack's saying
an invested ZL + geo mc burst combo should be enough to clear most aoe content
if anything survives ning's jade screen also has decent aoe and damage

[charred crag]

I run Noelle/Ning/zhong/albedo

[ancient pecan]

so in a way you don't need a dedicated aoe unit in mono geo

[storm tulip]

geo MC, which in the case of ning, I dont even need to use if the situation doesnt call for it

but even me just running ning/albedo/zhong as a 3 man squad outperforms my noelle/zhong/albedo/geo MC

[storm tulip]

yeah exactly

[charred crag]

Geo MC can be an active detriment of blocking ning's damage, so I'd agree there. Whereas Noelle has higher damage in single target than Ning just doing NA>CA in her ult downtime.

[storm tulip]

like in 12-3-2 as an example, I completely ignore the ruin defenders, they just die to collateral damage while I focus the ruin grader

now noelle can do the same, thing is, the ruin grader just takes longer to die while the adds take just slightly less time to do so

[ancient pecan]

noelle can slot in single target supports though, but that means you're not doing mono geo anymore

[storm tulip]

yeah I'm talking mono geo

[charred crag]

I'd argue moot point since any of the variations can handle 3* floor 12 on either side, but it sounds like feelscrafting/anecdotalcrafting from either position

[storm tulip]

my regular fast clear comp just has me run ning/zhong/kazuha/bennet and I clear in around 30seconds or so

[storm tulip]

they can handle this specific situation, where it is an AoE scenario with a very slight single target orientation and ning comp does better (which is honestly most AoE scenarios we have currently, a main enemy and some help)

and then in single target ning has her beat in the comp by a lot

currently the only chamber I get better results with noelle is 12-1-1 and that is more so because agents just get to ignore most of ningguang damage while invisible so you have to wait for openings while noelle just keeps swinging in huge AoE, rather than it being a full on "noelle just deals with the AoE scenario faster"

which is 100% a boon of noelle, she gets to ignore enemies like this or that routinely spread out a little bit

and next patch it is not even a competition between the 2 either, unfortunately mihoyo decided to really only care about half of the geo cast so far, hopefully that will change in the future

[charred crag]

I guess what I'm not sure why you seem to have disdain over noelle/prop ning up when they can be very easily used together/you seem to be propping up having Geo MC present in a ning comp that has 4 construct-summoning characters with a 3 limit, when you don't use the GMC at all in situations

[storm tulip]

I run geo MC

because geo MC has situations where he is routinely useful

[charred crag]

like, you seem to be comparing noelle/gmc/zhong/albedo or ning/gmc/zhong/albedo, but you don't seem to consider noelle/ning/zhong/albedo

[storm tulip]

and I dont run noelle

because when I do

I just play ning/zhong/albedo/ and emotional support noelle that gets to exist

and never gets swapped in to because there is hardly ever a reason when she is actually good to me there

[ancient pecan]

it's kinda funny because the same used to happen to me with ning

i did noelle ning geo mc flex (no albedo sadly) and i felt ning wasn't needed

[storm tulip]

that depends a lot on the flex

for example, fischl/xingqiu there can make ning be not needed in the comp, yes

[ancient pecan]

fischl most of the time, if there is no elemental shield to counter

[storm tulip]

that is why I'm strictly talking about mono geo here, they both have way superior options for teammates outside of mono geo

[ancient pecan]

yep
mono geo is cute but it's usually better to grab some supports of other elements

[charred crag]

same boat, I like ning but I find that the emphasis on aoe doesn't actually translate to poor single target (or rather, she isn't needed to still easily 3* because chasing faster metrics than that is actually without tangible purpose). That being said ning is fun to include because she's way flashier than geo MC.

[ancient pecan]

maybe with gorou that will change though

[charred crag]

better is super subjective once you reach the floor of "good enough" in my opinion

[storm tulip]

yeah gorou will change it for noelle, not for ning I dont think

like even at c6 gorou I'm fairly sure you run ning/zhong/gorou/bennet

or you just keep mona as the best buffer there even tbh

[ancient pecan]

c6 gorou should have been some sort of team wide def > atk conversion something that lets him work outside def scalers

imagine something like xinyan c6 for the entire team

[charred crag]

interesting idea, but weird design philosphy (needing c6 to be useful anywhere other than a super specific niche)

[storm tulip]

nah I think we will see some more weapons like itto's signature to try and bring that a bit

[ancient pecan]

hey it's mhy who is doing that not me remember sara?

gorou is following the same path

[storm tulip]

and honestly not even, because gorou does have a kit that can be useful outside of his niche

[ancient pecan]

you mean as a... uh... crystallize shielder?

[unique rover]

Partly he can be considered a shielder and healer

[storm tulip]

yeah

he does make your team considerably tankier too outside of that

for an average dps he is making you take 75% of the damage you otherwise would with a1+E buff

and he can run fav bow with EM/EM/EM or ER/EM/EM and some support gear, from 4pc petra to noblesse to just running some extra stats with 2 emblem/2 wanderer's

[reef stump]

If Gorou is sufficient as a shielder he could also act as a comfy Buffer for a non Geo DEF scaler in the future should we get one

[ancient pecan]

we already have one

c6 xinyan

[reef stump]

Xinyan is not enough DEF for that but yeah

and has a shield herself

[ancient pecan]

noir i think was tcing a pure pyro xinyan comp with c6 benny, redhorn, gorou and kaz

[storm tulip]

yeah but is like gorou better than say xiangling there

[reef stump]

I know, although iirc he switched from Gorou to Rosaria by now

[storm tulip]

yeah or even rosa for rev melt

[ancient pecan]

yea lots of options

[reef stump]

Realistically Gorou doesn't provide enough dmg for a non-Geo DEF scaler

But if you can combine that with covering for the defensive slot

that can be enough

[storm tulip]

especially since his damage is basically negative

so just looking at 700 EM gorou, that is around 4.6k crystallize shields at a base level, if we take into account that he is making you take only 75% damage that would be the same as me taking albedo with that amount of EM but gorou would have 6.2k hp shields instead of the 4.6

which if his Q has no ICD means 6k health crystallize shields (2.5x versus same element) every 1.5 seconds

so 50k shield health in the 8 procs of the 12 seconds c2 allows for

pretty reasonable

they wont be tanking any big hits unless it is from the same element, but otherwise I feel like he can suffice as a pure shield unit

versus corresponding element it gets close to diona shield like this but on a reaction proc instead of cooldown, so that is actually impressive imo

[charred crag]

that sounds hilariously specific, and in a good way. Only thing it doesn't take care of is xinyan's split scaling on her Q, or take advantage (other than her Q) of her phys shred/phys% buffing.

kaz grouping into c6 benny+gorou flat def/def% buff into redhorn xinyan spin2win sounds really funny though

[low valve]

does 700em allow for a er sands?

[storm tulip]

it allows for stringless + ER sands or for fav bow + EM sands and you can always use 2pc emblem or 2pc wanderer's to bump stats up

[low valve]

oh yeah mb i forgot abt arti sets and that fav had er sands

[spark aurora]

so is the recommended gorou build (for now) to abandon his personal dmg in favor of his support capabilities? like higher ER and EM

[low valve]

what personal dmg

[spark aurora]

[atomic sundial]

just stack ER

[storm tulip]

This was not related to itto comp, just outside of it if gorou could be decent

With itto you would just run def/geo/crit or er/geo/crit

[lament hazel]

ayo do you guys think serpent spine is better than the new 5* claymore?

forgot the name of the weapon

[storm tulip]

R1 redhorn is 5% better than serpent spine r5 for itto

[reef stump]

R1 Redhorn is roughly 4-5% above R5 SS and 15% above R1 SS under current assumptions for Itto

[storm tulip]

This is also assuming 100% uptime on full spine stacks which without zhongli is easier said than done

Especially at low serpent spine refinements

[lament hazel]

damn

[flint garden]

Albedo can't battery itto if he's against shielded enemies, would geomc be better value then, or is him being off field nuke is still good value even with that weakness?

[reef stump]

If you're faced with enough shielded enemies for that to be a factor then you might want to replace Albedo with a SubDPS that is good at breaking those shields.

[dense ocean]

Hello! Is 4p ToM could be worth in a Itto comp? Same for NO set? I thought about Albedo in 4p ToM and Gorou in 4p NO, but I’m not sure that attack bonus is good for Itto since he scales on def...Thank you!

[reef stump]

NO/ToM is roughly 3% more dmg for Itto. On Gorou you can easily run NO since Gorou's own damage is pretty damn weak, but sacrificng Albedo's dmg for 3% more on Itto via ToM isn't worth it.

[dense ocean]

Okay I see, then I’m gonna run NO for Gorou! Is the new set good for Albedo? Or do we prefer 2p Petra-2p NO for him?

[reef stump]

New Set is easily BiS for him

[dense ocean]

Okay thank you very much for your answers!

[storm tulip]

also on gorou you aren even sacrificing that much damage since 2pc noblesse is relevant to most of it

[jolly dragon]

itto with 3 geo characters < noelle

[reef stump]

Based on what?

[atomic sundial]

his name is literally Itto skipper

[red umbra]

Based on deez nuts

[tribal osprey]

deez nuts are based

in yo mouth

[tidal violet]

[low valve]

the godly double

[short obsidian]

Redhord not worth pulling if i have r5 ss right?

Also whats the best set for gorou on itto comp?

[reef stump]

R1 Redhorn is estimated to only be about 5% ahead of R5 SS so its not really a priority.
Itto want the new DEF Set coming in 2.3. Gorou will likely jsut run NO, although Petra/EoSF/New Set are also options if you want to focus on his own dmg more or want to buff a non-Geo Sub DPS.

[thorn parrot]

Call me excited, but I am trying to make a speculated geo team around Itto and would appreciate any suggestions. Itto, gorou(C4 for healing), Ningguang(quickswap burst) and geo MC just for the geo team member scalings. Considering this team, is it worth it to pull for c0 Albedo? And yes, i don't have Zhongli

[remote palm]

how good is c6 on itto?

[hexed ridge]

There's been some interesting posts on NGA lately about constellation strength of different characters, including Itto. I don't want to go too much into detail but here's roughly the growth you can expect from C0 to C6

Itto is the black graph

every graph indicates a different top tier character, it's only to be taken as a very rough estimate and calcs were made at low investment. Don't spread it

[frosty ermine]

how do the other 5 star weapons compare to redhorn?

[reef stump]

How much C6 itself does can vary due to the rng factor. Just the 70% CD is 20-25% dmg. Overall Cons probably in the 30-40% range.
Haven't calced the overal C0 -> C6 yet though, thats just C6 in a vacuum.

[reef stump]

For Itto non of the other 5* Claymores are noteworthy and get handily beaten by SS and are much less comparable to Redhorn.

[clever herald]

Do you happen to have a link to this post if you don't mind me asking?

[hexed ridge]

https://bbs.nga.cn/read.php?tid=29351548&rand=995

[clever herald]

tyy

[hexed ridge]

[storm tulip]

Obvious lies, c3 should be the biggest spike

Cause ushi best boi

[reef stump]

Best Cons for screenshots also

Just don't tell anybody its jsut 4-5% extra DPS

[hexed ridge]

CN seems to value C2 quite highly though, that looks like a solid 25% DPS increase to me

That sounds like a lot

They also seem to believe in the Itto/Gorou/Albedo/Fischl comp

[reef stump]

I don't see how you realistically gain that much out of C2

ER reqs are not high enough to gain 25% DPS just by lowering ER reqs

And rotation time is difficult to cut short w/o paying somewhere else for it

In a vacuum, going from 18s rots to 14s rots is powerful

But not realistically feasible

[storm tulip]

I think they lower rotation from 20 to 15

which is what I consider too

thing is is how hit lag enables that or not

[reef stump]

Even with 0 hitlag extension that is difficult to do

[storm tulip]

not really it is more than enough time for gorou E and zhong E

and go back to smacking

[reef stump]

1.5s cast, 11s uptime, even if you only attribute 1s to each other unit thats 15.5s

[storm tulip]

yeah but you only need to go to 2 of them in between

so it is like 15+16, something like that

which is still pretty close to the initial

but hit lag does fuck that

[reef stump]

I think you'd get closer to 18s + 16s

Bc you still have to set up Albedo and such

[storm tulip]

well, that is the set up

which is also not 20 seconds for original rotation

[reef stump]

You have to redo that every 2 rots though

[storm tulip]

no, you just need to albedo E pretty much

[reef stump]

Otherwise Albedo doesn't get the Gorou Buff

[storm tulip]

you can ignore all of the remainder of the party Qs to be fair

like gorou is the only one really worth casting with c2

and you just E+Q then

[reef stump]

Gorou E Albedo E ZL E Gorou Q is ~5s

And if you skip Gorou E Albedo doesn't get the Buff

Not sure if worth

[storm tulip]

another thing to consider though

is that you might just not even swap from itto if there is no need

if you got crystallize shards and extended gorou Q

oh wait nvm

c6 then disappears still

[reef stump]

You still lose the Geo dmg and CD

You can ofc back to back Q if you jsut need to finish off smth quick

[storm tulip]

yeah, but that is threshold based

[reef stump]

Yep

[storm tulip]

which is still relevant

just not a straight 25% dps increase

nvm me

was thinking you just dont gorou Q when you need to redeploy albedo, but again, c6 buff

[reef stump]

Going from 20s to 15s rots is a 33% DPS increase. So you'd have to pay 8% max in opportunity cost to get there

And actually 15s every rot seems unsustainable in any case

[storm tulip]

ok, then my consideration was 16 second rotation

[reef stump]

so that sounds like a pipe dream

[storm tulip]

I wasnt sure which one of the values was I just knew it was 25% increase

and 20 to either 15 or 16

which is purely based on wether hit lag screws with that or not

[reef stump]

20s -> 16s is a 25% DPS increase

[storm tulip]

ye

i doublechecked now

[reef stump]

But even then its not true bc you have 1 Ushi less in the second rot and don't have the 25% DEF from Gorou Q

[storm tulip]

yeah but again, you do get more stacks/second

because more c1 procs

[reef stump]

But not more Stacks per Q window

[storm tulip]

I think that would cover the gorou buff

[reef stump]

So you'd have to go long enough to get an extra Q window for that to manifest in more Stacks used overall

Or well, clear faster due to the shorter rot

[storm tulip]

yeah, but the faster clear is exactly what happened there

and since the damage output in the comp is pretty high

c2 might actually be even better than 25%

because again it is threshold based

[reef stump]

There will be a threshhold where that holds true

but I don't think its that easy

You'd need to improve from a 40s clear to a 32s clear

for 25% DPS

[storm tulip]

yeah which I think is pretty doable

like raiden hypercarry usually gets cooldown gated above anything else

[reef stump]

CD gating is why we have double carry blow ups, yeah

But Speedruns are a topic of its own

especially given that Itto isn't that well suited for it

[storm tulip]

I think he is well suited for big HP single targets, obviously just no one really competes with tao+ayaka for those

[reef stump]

Upper echelon of speedrunning is essentially Tao, Ayaka, Raiden, C6 Eula, C6 Ganyu, Childe(+XL)
I don't think he will be that, but he might come right after

[storm tulip]

he wont purely because no insant burst or insane AoE to compete with them

[reef stump]

Sure, its not a matter of his raw throughput potential and just his nuke capabilities

[storm tulip]

yeah

even though c6 r5 itto can reach like 100k per arataki charged on whale investments, that is not really enough for speedrun purposes

[reef stump]

At the point where he gets 100k CAs a C2 Raiden throws a 600k Slash and the floor is over. The classical issue of nuke vs sustained

[storm tulip]

yeah

tbf though, he could probably compete in that since raiden does need you to cast all your support skills

while itto could just take a quicker route and win through less animations

the issue is again, AoE

[reef stump]

Thats awfully specific since you'd need to know enemy HP pools and such.

[storm tulip]

yeah

[reef stump]

Like Xiao can technically do the same but he is nowhere to be seen in Speedruns unless its a solo challenge run or at a level where its full rotations till the kill

[storm tulip]

I dont think he can do it as well as itto can

[reef stump]

Itto should be better if not hindered by AoE, yeah

[storm tulip]

thing is xiao still has a lot of lag to his kit

because of the jump

and he would still need like bennet Q and shred from somewhere

[reef stump]

Thats very threshold based again

But jsut generally if you don't have Xiao getting a significant AoE mod advantage

Itto Comps jsut do way more DPR

[storm tulip]

yeah, one extra enemy isnt even enough

unless it is exactly 2v1, but I assume that 2 enemies itto can always hit them

[reef stump]

2 v 1 doesn't exist unless its Yoimiya

and even then its not applicable to Team DPS

So yeah

[hexed ridge]

I‘m starting to think that Itto‘s constellations are somewhat bait. C1 seems negligible, C2 could potentially be strong but even then - it‘s not as much of an increase like we‘re used to with other characters these days

It‘s also because his damage share in the team isn‘t hyper carry level, Albedo deals such a significant amount of damage too. There‘s also the potential of a 4th sub DPS unit

That‘s why CN has C0 -> C2 Itto only at a ~12% damage increase in team DPS, and that‘s with the most favorable conditions for C2

[reef stump]

I agree C1 and C2 seem bait-y

C1 has a pretty neat feel good factor to it, but isn't numerically crazy

And C2 is conditional. It can effectively have 0 value in some situations or depending on how you play

There is far worse and if you know how to leverage the Cons they might even be worth getting. But they are no HT C1 or Raiden/Kaz C2

[storm tulip]

to be fair you are saying it isnt hypercarry level because you arent running bennet in the comp

because albedo overall team dps contribution is higher than bennet's overall team dps contribution by a bit

it is not a gamebreaking difference, but it also allows to bring ER requirments down on both team slots which is the main reason why albedo is such a powerhouse in the comp

if sara/raiden worked with beidou profitably, you would also see the comp just being raiden/beidou/sara/kazuha instead of bennet for example

In this case you could even see beidou be the top damage contribution for the comp in certain cases, wouldnt mean that raiden is not a good hypercarry

[reef stump]

Hypercarry level isn't really saying much if its just Team Dmg breakdown analysis

[storm tulip]

yeah

[reef stump]

on a per target basis

I have Itto with Geo Reso + C6 Gorou

at a similar level to full Hyper Xiao (Ben/TTDS/ZL shred)

w/o collision

But Itto gets Sub DPS dmg on top

So as long as Xiao doesn't get heavy AoE advantage it just doesn't matter if Xiao is more hyper than Itto

Same thing applies to Rai/Kaz/Ben + SubDPS comps

Its not Hyper

But Team DPS is very high

[reef stump]

Huh

I have trouble finding a C1 combo for Itto

thats actually a significant gain

with my current frames

[storm tulip]

did you use c6 video frames for it?

[reef stump]

Nope, but I ofc accounted for them being continuous slashes

[storm tulip]

yes, but atk speed passive

is harder to account for

from c0 frames

since you only get 1 swing from the showcase

[reef stump]

Currently I work w/o the ATK SPD at all which has non-hitlag frames roughly the same as the C6 Whopperflower video from a while ago.

But like

Even if I cut 5 frames from each Slash

That doesn't change a whole lot

I get the same dmg as C0 with a 20 frame advantage. If I adjust slashes for 5 frames I can maybe add N1/2 but thats pretty much it

[storm tulip]

you were doing 2 full combos, na4 and na2 for c0 right?

[reef stump]

Yep

[storm tulip]

i mean with atk speed I assume you have time for SCA8 N4 SCA5 E

which still wouldnt be a huge gain, but more or less what I always assumed

that you would just do 1 normal attack rotation as usual and 3 extra chargeds vs c0 N2

[storm tulip]

so that is 5% increase in motion value plus A4 scaling on top still I assume

or does that take A4 into account

[reef stump]

Thats raw MV

I also have this for C0 in the slightly over the frame limit corner

[storm tulip]

with a4 taken into account it gives me around a 7% dps increase, which is around what I expected tbh

[reef stump]

Oh and for cryptic combos C1 has this

But yeah 7% is probably the right ballpark after the NA Buffs

In case of doubt I'm gonna look for 0 Stack Starter Combos if the difference changes there

[storm tulip]

yeah NA buffs were so uncalled for, I hate them, it was 100% beta testers crying his normals hit lower than noelle

instead of giving feedback to parts of his kit that actually mattered

[reef stump]

Should've just pushed everything up 10% rather than 25% on NAs

[storm tulip]

yup

[ancient pecan]

buff ushi so sac double cow becomes a thing

[reef stump]

Top end C6 combo. Which doesn't look all that impressive for being perfect rng and not the norm

The 70% CD carry that Cons so hard

[storm tulip]

I mean, yes

the reducing stacks is a way to enable the cirt damage to keep coming

also norm is SCA15 iirc from my calcs

and then you would do like N2 into SCA3 or 4 i dont recall right now and I didnt keep those notes

[reef stump]

Can just check later what fits for me

Gonna write up a general Cons evaluation now and polish the Sheet up a bit

Also have to redo Sac GS

To see if R5 can keep up with scuffed WB and 0 Stack Blackcliff

[reef stump]

Sadly Sac GS remains a meme

So I have SS, Redhorn, Blackcliff, Sac GS, WB

other weapons that are interesting?

[storm tulip]

for me it is around 7% worse

is that what you got more or less?

[reef stump]

worse than what?

[storm tulip]

oh sry

than scuffed WB and 0 stack Blackcliff

or more so, they were around 7% better

[reef stump]

Scuffed WB is 5% ahead (662k), 0 Blackcliff 3,5% ahead (652k) of R5 Sac GS (630k)

[storm tulip]

how did you do scuffed WB?

[reef stump]

Sac GS combo used

[reef stump]

1 Stack DEF, 4 Stacks ATK

[storm tulip]

and did you add defense to the a4 after?

or did you leave it at that?

[reef stump]

sure

Its set up to account for it

I idealize Stack uptime though. Not dynamically ramp it, so its slighlty overshooting

[storm tulip]

for me WB is 677k and 625k sac GS and blackcliff 667k, but whiteblind has ramp up still so I just say to myself that WB=blackcliff

[storm tulip]

yeah same

it is probably just due to artifact difference

oh wait

nvm