Itto Thread

[storm tulip]

and support rotation is around 6 seconds

fav bow might actually get 2 procs (obviously, if r5)

[muted arrow]

if you stay with gorou to get the particles don't you potentially slow down the rotation by 1-2 seconds ( by doing it twice )

[storm tulip]

gorou is not getting any of his own particles, I have a funnel into itto there, but I can even just do it for zhong who is already over capping since he would be next in line of gorou E

and if you manage to get 2 fav procs

[muted arrow]

I meant fav warbow procs, or do they go to others too

[storm tulip]

yes, they go to others

[muted arrow]

I see then. How much damage would you lose by swapping def sand with ER sand with Eosf on btw?

[storm tulip]

honestly probably not much since he has shit base defense to begin with, in which case you would go ER sands with emblem, I would need to do a proper calc for it, but also needs to be seen if 4pc noblesse on gorou for itto would out damage the gain from emblem which is also very very likely

[sharp sinew]

is itto still good with the recent leaks of his energy particle generation?

[storm tulip]

yes

that is what we were expecting

[crystal isle]

Hi! I'm planning on running Itto, Gorou, Zhongli + 1 (Since I don't have albedo), Would bennett be a good fit if I don't use him on other teams, or forcing quad geo with Geo MC better?

[mighty ridge]

These damage calcs are all fine and good but tell me how fast quad geo can break elemental shields

[reef stump]

If you can't brute force it you can always flex someone in who can deal with it.

[storm tulip]

if ning is one of the 4, relatively fast tbh

and like people said if you ever need to, you cna flex that 4th slot

also we currently have no elemental shields in abyss rotation in floor 12, nor in the upcoming one

and everything below can be bruteforced

you also literally only care about lector/herald shields specifically

because abyss mage shields are weak and skirmishers can be petrified and focused

[azure dagger]

any thoughts on what will be gorou's BiS artifact set? i was thinking 2pc eosf 2pc hood, but could see some 4pc options as well (NO)

im also guessing ER sands will be almost mandatory for gorou assuming you're just using fav bow?

[alpine crown]

tbh im thinking exile

little extra energy

prob doesnt make up for lost dmg actually

[azure dagger]

not meming? as in you have a leveled 4pc exile set? haha

it is a nice set, but i think it's only 4* tho right?

[atomic sundial]

yea

but then again looking at Gorou's kit

his dmg is probably not that big at all?

[alpine crown]

ya i doubt the 6 extra energy will make up for lost dmg on gorou

[azure dagger]

yea his dmg is v small

[atomic sundial]

and he doesn't ask for many stats aside from ER

[alpine crown]

his dmg is small, but so is 6 energy

[atomic sundial]

maybe def if he's c4

and crit rate if fav

🤔

[azure dagger]

i wish favonius activated while off field 😂

[alpine crown]

im guessing 4pc noblesse will be best

[muted arrow]

raikh might have a point saying petra gorou could work if your flex slot is a geo sub dps who's not geo

especially if the character snapshots

[storm tulip]

I still doubt anything worth running works well with petra rotation wise

[reef stump]

Its very minmaxing stuff in any case. Even if Petra is 20% more dmg to a 200k Sub DPS, which already seems fairly high, thats 40k damage.

If Itto sits at 800k, Albedo at 300k and the flex at 200k we are looking at 1.3M DPR. 40k more Team Damage at that point is 3% more damage. If you delay your rot as much as 1s to gain that benefit its already gone.

NO is roughly 3% more Itto Damage, which would be 24k. So Petra mileage would be down to 16k, which is 1.2% more Team Damage.

You will have a higher Team Damage variance based on Crit RNG than the difference Gorou's Set makes. In practice it won't matter at all what he uses. You at best make yourself feel a little better by choosing which numbers you increase a bit.

Like actually farming Petra for Gorou seems like a waste of Resin in particular, when you can just get a good NO Set on the side from conversion.

[storm tulip]

yup, conversion is why i'll be running 4pc

I actually got a pretty good full set for him this patc from it

[red umbra]

damn xq is shitting on fischl lol

not much reason to run fish outside of opportunity cost then given xq's additional DR and healing

or is this a c1 thing

[storm tulip]

that is raiden

you legitimately can just run 4pc ToM raiden in the 4th slot and never use her burst

and she actually benefits from 4pc noblesse on gorou for example

[reef stump]

How many XQ procs you get in an Itto comp is volatile. Even C0 Itto with very good E rng can end up doing only 2x N2 which would end up being 2 XQ procs. XQ gets better the worse off Itto is and vice versa. So while technically usable he isn't genuinely what you want to have.

[red umbra]

hmm

honestly im leaning towards zhongli

at this point

his energy gen is copium but after the leaks re gorou particle gen i think you take what you can get

plus u have good resonance uptime (prob not a massive issue in the first place albeit) and shred

and u flex into elemental subdps depending on shield check requirements etc

[reef stump]

Raiden's dmg in that capacity sucks pretty badly though. I just checked my Calcs, unbuffed E is like 50k DPR. Sure thats with EoSF + Catch and you can build her for her E more, but even then you are not gonna break 100k and running ToM doesn't help that either.

So at that point you're really better off with Fischl again

[storm tulip]

E build would use deathmatch you would completely ignore her Q, and ToM would improve itto dps by a bit

It also gets you better crystallize shields and full uptime on crystallize which is the main concern for most of these 4th slots we are talking about: they dont keep geo resonance up reliabily

A build for E would reach on average 70k damage per rotation on single target (+ToM buff on itto) which, yes it is pretty meh, but we cant just think of the damage output in comparison to fischl and ignore the praticality issues she has in the comp

The itto rotation is just limiting enough that 4th non zhongli support selection is always gonna be pretty underwhelming, I'm still of the opinion that if you really want to go this route due to wanting zhongli somehwere else (or not having him) that rosaria or beidou are the superior options because they can still be used reliabily in the comp energy wise and provide significant enough damage to be considered

[reef stump]

I really don't think there is a really notable practicality issue with Fischl, the comp just uses her badly and I don't see how Raiden does the job massively better. Raiden might provide Crystallize a bit more consistently and for a longer duration, but if your crystallize shields are breaking left and right you shouldn't have gone w/o a proper shielder anyway.

It basically boils down to the same point we're having over and over again that almost anything with off-field dmg is almost equally underwhelming for that comp and comitting to Quad Geo is basically the best bet all in all.

If Beidou works as we discussed before then that might still be the most attractive non-ZL option given that Beidou actually has a shield on her C1 that can be leveraged in additon to the Crystallizes she enables.

[muted arrow]

how much ER would beidou need, like 200 at least?

[reef stump]

228% was the number at the end iirc with 2 Es or a Perfect Counter

Its certainly not nice for Beidou as for everyone else in that Team

But with 2 targets the dmg is still notable and she also has a shield

[storm tulip]

it was 230% with 1 E and a fav proc

[reef stump]

so if you can run that w/o extending brutally or be too low investment to have Stats after that ER req it can work.

[storm tulip]

and fav+ er sands + 4pc emblem= 230%

[reef stump]

Was thinking about the WGS version, not the Fav GS one

or was it the same?

[storm tulip]

the wgs is the same but needs a perfect counter or a second fav proc from gorou (off field)

but obviously you dont have ER on wolfs gravestone so it is harder to meet

I personally have an emblem set that can accomodate that with 65/120 ratio

but even 10 procs from the fav greatsword build is around 310k per rotation as long as there are 2 targets

[reef stump]

I'd definitely strive for the WGS version since its already a high investment thing anyway to have decent Stats after that amount of ER.

[muted arrow]

230 ER with wgs? that's a lot of er rolls even with eosf and er sands

would it be even worth to bring her at that point

[reef stump]

If you can field it efficiently 230% with WGS is better than 230% with Fav

Fav is just easier

[muted arrow]

no I mean is it even worth to bring beidou over other options at that point

what's her output

[reef stump]

Lemme quickly calc that to put that into perspective to my other ones

Same investment as my other Stuff, Dmg per target avg with 2 targets present

[ionic cape]

https://twitter.com/genshinBLANK/status/1454760294060802049?t=ISuB7G0VT5FDQ1X1As-ZFQ&s=19

BLANK (@genshinBLANK)

Itto E : 3 particles
Gorou E : 2 particles
Gorou burst : 0 particles (the circle that follows you and does geo damage)
Itto burst : 0 particles, the geo attacks do 0 particles as well

STC
#GenshinImpact #Genshin

Likes

804

Twitter · Oct 31, 2021, 10:40 AM

you guys already know this ig

[jaunty junco]

Blank chatted yesterday abt that in the TC channel

[ionic cape]

[mighty ridge]

Is Gorou the noblesse holder in the team?

[ionic cape]

maybe, but his particle gen is somewhat ....

maybe fav bow can do the trick idk

[atomic sundial]

I'm planning to run Rosaria in my final slot

so she will be the Noblesse runner

[low valve]

itto c3 or redhorn

?

assuming all talents 10

so c3 = t13 e

[ionic cape]

c2 r1

[low valve]

ty

[tidal violet]

hi, hi. i'm asking for update, but do we have other team composition proposed aside from the dugtrio team comp? or at least new 4th slot contenders?

[ocean bison]

Well im using raiden as 4th slot

[tidal violet]

How about investments for Itto's overall damage. Albedo is still the better investment over Redhorn?

Also, does anyone know what artifacts will Albedo use for the dugtrio comp? (That can be pre-farmed)

[proud leaf]

thought i'd bring it up here as well, gorou's c4 in the CN datamine is different from the EN datamine

https://genshin.honeyhunterworld.com/db/char/gorou/?lang=CHS

assuming CN is more accurate, then the geo teams will have only 40% cdmg instead of 80%

[atomic sundial]

Albedo can just carry his standard 2AP 2NO if you really want to prefarm but him and Itto are both going to prefer the Husk of Opulent Dreams set

[proud leaf]

not sure how much of an effect losing 40% crit damage on Itto will be

the difference between 2 and 3 geo teams will also end up as 20% cdmg and 15% geo, which may be enough to make 2 geo teams more relevant

[spark aurora]

yeah we've always known

c4 on EN got fucked up for some reason, it was always about healing

[proud leaf]

so the calcs done here saying the itto teams matching hutao teams is already done with 40% cdmg?

[spark aurora]

yeah, noone did it with 80%

that'd make gorou hands down the best geo support

[proud leaf]

gotcha

[spark aurora]

idk how high the investments are on the calcs matching hutao teams tho, better to not do comparisons against her yet since people are also saying it's about the strength of xiao team

[frigid hound]

What kind of tao team tho

[spark aurora]

[proud leaf]

double geo tao team

[frigid hound]

Oh that

Not that hard to beat

[ionic cape]

why they need 4pcs nobless when they scale of def

[spark aurora]

why not

[proud leaf]

what's the hutao team we should be considering, thoma + VV?

[spark aurora]

mildly more dmg

[ionic cape]

[ionic cape]

kazuha

hu tao guide is pinned on #・tc-lounge

[frigid hound]

It depends

[storm tulip]

why do you use 4pc ToM/No on hu tao comps when she scales off HP

[ionic cape]

[storm tulip]

[ionic cape]

[frigid hound]

Who tf uses 4tom on a hutao comp

Tf is going on

[atomic sundial]

its more of a

better to have the buff than not to have any

situation

why not anw you can just use the artifact box to farm Noblesse from ur shit HoOD pieces

[storm tulip]

It is literally free on albedo/zhong

That is the only reason why

[frigid hound]

Oh them

[storm tulip]

From 100% of the healing set pieces too

[random prism]

https://twitter.com/genshinBLANK/status/1455148846363910147?t=yeFDMaZYJoy8MTSV7mdgRA&s=19

BLANK (@genshinBLANK)

Redhorn Stonethresher changes:
First Image is OLD
Second Image is NEW

STC
#GenshinImapct #Genshin

Likes

240

Twitter · Nov 1, 2021, 12:24 PM

[alpine crown]

355??

[atomic sundial]

yea low base atk

hold up

that base atk can't be right

it should be 542

honey still says 542

must be some kind of mistake

[reef stump]

Its a borked Server build

the weapon says 90/20

not 90/90

[atomic sundial]

yea

[jade isle]

C2 nerf , C6 buff rip low spenders

[reef stump]

So they likely just forced it to 90 and skipped the Ascension Stat changes or so

[atomic sundial]

he prob wanted to show buffs to the wep passive

https://twitter.com/genshinBLANK/status/1455154095405285380

BLANK (@genshinBLANK)

The ATK stat on Itto's signature weapon is just a placeholder. There was no change made for it. I just wanted to showcase the change for the passive.

Twitter · Nov 1, 2021, 12:45 PM

[reef stump]

Itto C2 is bait anyways

[atomic sundial]

yep

[reef stump]

The C2 nerf does basically nothing for it

and it doesn't even look like Itto needs a ton of ER in any case in a Triple/Quad Geo Team

So C2 should be low value and not be worth pulling for on its own really

Might feel very comfy energy wise if you have it, but purely performance wise it should be no big deal

[hexed ridge]

It depends on if you can alter rotation times with it

I did some energy calcs yesterday and C2 Itto only needs 120% ER to ult every 15s

You'd have to skip Gorou Q every other rotation, you do gain around 20% additional team DPS though possibly

[reef stump]

Itto already takes 14-15s of field time with hitlag. You just don't get to do your Support rotation that quickly.

You also miss the double E casts which is in itself already a sizable dmg loss.

[hexed ridge]

15s rotations may be a bit ambitious but 16-17s should very much be possible depending on who you run as your 4th member

[pearl bone]

Itto rotations is not going to be less than 20s

[reef stump]

17s would be frame perfect Support swapping since you have like 1s swap cd. Hihghly unlikely you actually manage to pull that off. And you also lose dmg on Itto for doing that, so if you're off by 1-2s it can easiyl turn into a DPS loss to do it

You also either lose Buff Uptime on Itto or don't get to resnapshot Albedo if you work with Gorou E/Q per rot.

Not having Q also means not getting the 25% DEF from Gorou A4

So even if it was physically possible to do it would likely just not be worth doing, especially given how easy it would be to lose that time.

[hexed ridge]

I don't think we should discard the option of faster rotations that quickly. We don't know Itto's exact uptime, we also don't know if 2x E is even going to be feasible/optimal and there's also C1 which is going to alter the rotation and that makes the 2nd E at the end of your ult less valuable as you probably do not need the stacks it generates

I somewhat doubt they'd make a constellations that grants ult cooldown reduction if there was no way to utilize it, but I may of course be wrong

[alpine crown]

using E is good regardless of the stacks it gives

it does a ton of dmg

[reef stump]

You can loop the Stacks around for the next rot

And his E is so fast

that its by far his most efficient attack

Doing Q E combos E

is pretty much always going to be optimal

You need 3 SCA Slashes to make up for 1 E

But E goes out as fast as a single slash

[pearl bone]

single E or double E, Itto by himself is going to take 14-15s in a rotation

he just takes a lot of time with his Q

[storm tulip]

You get a 30-35 second rotation with 2 itto Qs with c2

[reef stump]

If thats worth losing extra E uses and having to use inferior combos

[storm tulip]

You use 3 Es per 30 seconds

And what inferior combos?

You have c1 your Q rotation should always be the same

[reef stump]

If you don't get 2 Es per rot your combos are weaker and you have less Stacks on the follow up

[storm tulip]

No?

In fact you never benefit from the second E

Comparing c0 to c1

[reef stump]

C1 Stacks are generated with a delay

[storm tulip]

C2 lets you actually take advantage of the second E

[reef stump]

You can go in with 2 Stacks, get 2 from Q, Cast E, do SCA8

[storm tulip]

Like c0 rotation

Uses the 2nd E at/near the end of it

So it only sets up the following Q

C1 does that by default

[reef stump]

I haven't said anything else

It doesn't since C1 generates Stacks with a delay

And you cna start spending before you overcap

[storm tulip]

No you get 2 instant and the other ones are gotten while you combo

[reef stump]

Yeah, like I said

2 from Q cast, 2 fromt he previous rot E

1 from the start E cast

Go SCAing

[storm tulip]

And with c2

[reef stump]

get 3 refreshes while you do it

[storm tulip]

You get the same for 2nd Q

And same as first Q at c0

And 3rd Q = 1st c0 Q

4th = 2nd+ c0 Q

[reef stump]

If you do a 30s rot

[storm tulip]

Ut just goes back and forth

[reef stump]

you don't have 2 Es on the second Q

[storm tulip]

Yes you do

Ushi should still be on the field

While you start Q

Abd c1 makes that irrelevant anyways

[reef stump]

How do you get 4 Es into two back to back 15s intervals?

[storm tulip]

You dont get 4 Es

You simply take advantage of the 2nd one better

[reef stump]

takign better advantage only applies if it gets hit all the time. If it doesn't it makes no difference

[storm tulip]

Ok so we agree that lets say c1 rotation starts Q every time at 5 stacks after ushi cast and then gets 3-4 more from c1 and ushi disappearing

And ends the Q with 2-3 stacks

[reef stump]

Technically it ends with 1 Stack from the E cast and gets another Stack during down time

But yeah

[storm tulip]

With c2 you would end with 1-2 and then get the 3rd one while you do the first combo from ushi disappeaeing and this second Q either ends from full stacks from normal attacks, or even lets say 0

[storm tulip]

Yes, including downtime obviously

The only real difference here is that you get a slightly lower c1 combo

Every 2 Qs

But you are getting 1.5x more Qs than c0/c1

We all know that itto is the main source of damage for the comp by a long long mile

[reef stump]

You still lose the dmg from the extra E you get vs a 20s rot, which is worth 3 SCA Slashes

[storm tulip]

You are still easily getting a 20-25% dmg increase

Over c1

[reef stump]

You also miss the 25% DEF Buff from Gorou Q on one of the Qs

And then I doubt you actually manage 30s

[storm tulip]

It would be 35-36

Which is why I said 30-35

[reef stump]

If we say 36s, which seems more realistic

Those 4s need to cover for 1 E less, 25% DEF less on one Q, 1 Gorou Q

Thats C2 specifically, take C1 out of the picture for that

Otherwise you mingle C1 and C2 value

Let me check what kind of DPR that is in my Calcs

C0 R1 Itto is 805k DPR for me, C6 Gorou, Geo reso. If I Take the 25% DEF form Albedo A4 away and remove 1 E fromt he rot

I go down to 675k

losing the gorou Q is realistically like 30k or so, not gonna bother with my high investment numbers, nobody builds him like that

So in a vacuum that 4s rotational advantage would have to have more effective value than ~160k DPR.

Otherwise you can just play C1 by itself

which ofc has value

[slim storm]

Itto math

[storm tulip]

Thing is you also increase the value of c1 with c2

You cant just take it conpletely out of the picture

[reef stump]

I don't really see that to a significant degree. You ofc get technically more Stacks/time by having more Q uses in the same time but how much that matters is dependent on when you end an encounter. Its breakpoint based like ATK SPD is and thus can have 0 value.

[storm tulip]

It never has 0 value

Because of the delay

[reef stump]

not the C1, but the C2 C1 "synergy"

[storm tulip]

What I mean is that as long as c2 is being taken advantage of, c1 c2 synergy never ever has 0 value

C2 itself being taken advantage of or not is the one where that happens

[reef stump]

You don't have more Stacks in the second Q with C2

Unless you gamble on E getting hit

[storm tulip]

? You just get more stacks per rotation always

[reef stump]

From C1

but not from C2

[storm tulip]

Yes from c2

[reef stump]

How?

[storm tulip]

Because you use Q more frequently

[reef stump]

Thats is breakpoint based

[storm tulip]

Hence you proc c1 more frequently

As long as c2 is being taken advantage of

C1 is getting more value than before

Obviously if you keep having a 20 second rotation with c2

All you are doing is bringing ER down

[reef stump]

You need a favorable clear time to have used more Stacks with C2

since the individual Q windows are the same to worse

[storm tulip]

?

[reef stump]

If you clear in 2 Q windows, C2 doesn't give you more Stacks. At best it has you clearing 4s faster if the dmg of the weaker second rot is still enough to cap off the run, which is situational

Otherwise you need to clear at a time that either has been going on for so long that the 36s C2 rot has resulted in an extra Q window over the C0/1 20s rot

Or ends at a point where the C2 rot has started a new Q window before the C0/1 could catch up so to speak

And then it is still left open

If the extra Stacks you eventually generate outweigh the recurring loss on every second Q

And if I look at that very simplified with just Itto's personal dmg

805k * 2 /40 = 40,25k DPS vs (805k + 675k) / 36 = 41,111. Thats a 2.1% gain

Ofc that is just looking at C0 rots pretending you can directly jump to C1

And C1 will improve on that gap

but I don't think it will to a degree sizable enough

to make C2 a good Cons if you don't get a sizable advantage out of the energy

in fact it might be more value to retain normal rots and just drop ER if you can.

[storm tulip]

meh best comp you already need no ER on itto other than the random er subs you are bound to get

[reef stump]

Yep, optimizing some 20% ballpark ER isn't really something you can expect to do in reality

[storm tulip]

also did you trade the ushi cast for an extra normal in the rotation btw

cause fairly sure that would be the fair trade

it is not a huge difference but it is definitely something that should be measured

[reef stump]

with an extra N1 its up to 704k
So 805k *2 /40 = 40,25k, (805k + 704k) / 36 = 41,9111
Increases the Gap to 4,14%

Gonna look at C1 Rots later for a more realistic C1 -> C2 comparison. Haven't optimized my C1 combos yet to the same degree I did for the C0 ones.

But another question:
How exactly is that 36s rot supposed to work? If I take the Itto/Gorou/Albedo/ZL comp then you have 6s initial Support rotation, followed by ~14s Itto. Now you ofc want to refresh Gorou with an E but if you then just go back to Itto for the 35-36s rot you don't have full shield uptime for the second rot and might miss some Albedo E uptime aswell. And if your refresh those aswell you're back to 40s.

[short obsidian]

Are there weapon comparisons already?

[proud leaf]

would be interesting to see skyward pride's values

[teal sable]

640% extra dmg

not something to be scoffed at.

unfortunately the substat is.

[hasty quail]

so Itto's buffs were just put into the client proper right, so change we didn't know about already? Same for his weapon or did it get a second buff?

[teal sable]

We knew everything except Gorou's C4/C6 and the new icon afaik

[ornate salmon]

no

[humble gate]

Guys on what "power level" are the early calcs putting him on? Obviously it's hard to say, I mean the general idea

[reef stump]

Yep, no real changes this week

[hasty quail]

RIP I hope we see something tomorrow

still one more week at least

[reef stump]

I don't expect anything anymore at this point

He seems pretty much where he should be at

[hasty quail]

I think Gorou could use another buff or two tbh

I still find it weird that he doesn't have a level 4 for his buff even though there's UI for it

[reef stump]

Gorou is fine performance wise

especially in a Albedo+Itto/Noelle Team where he gets to buff 2 units

[hasty quail]

is he? I was seeing people mentionin how weak he was compared to Bennet/Xingqiu in their natural habitat

[rigid bay]

[reef stump]

C6 Gorou Buffs Itto by like 43%

[hasty quail]

yeah I'm def gonna try for that delicious c6 Gorou

esp since we have no idea when we're getting a male 5* next lol

[reef stump]

We won't easily get handed out Bennett power level on 4*s anymore

especially not pre-C6 4*s

[hasty quail]

prob for the best they kinda fucked up with the Xingaling/Xinqiu/Bennet trio

[reef stump]

Not even necessarily a fuck up per se

It gave the game a really solid base to work with

which keeps more people playing

[hasty quail]

ohhhh that's a good point

kinda like the way Granblue makes magna so good (or well did)

[reef stump]

Maybe they overshot Bennett by a bit but I don't think it was entirely unintentional

[hasty quail]

will be funny comparing once we get a pyro Bennet ala Gorou/Sara

[onyx junco]

they did fuck up with xiangling's and xingqiu's dmg

[reef stump]

And everyone having Bennett jsut means everyone wants units that get crazy numbers out of him

XL and XQ are good, but not broken in the game's context

XQ is key to selling those juicy vape Pyro DPS

[hasty quail]

poor Tohma

[reef stump]

Thoma is a fucking disaster of a unit

[hasty quail]

yeah....he's too good of a boy to be done so dirty

wouldda loved to use him with Childe but alas

[reef stump]

Ofc gotta see what eventually gets out of that

[hasty quail]

still can theoretically but....

[reef stump]

but if the goal was

to make him the new Pyro 4* Support

they failed miserably

[hasty quail]

indeed they did if he at least had a better ICD then he'd be workable but lol

[onyx junco]

XQ's damage and XL having no icd on her pyronado makes them so busted tho

[reef stump]

If he had no icd he could be used for rev melt and as a OL Bot, which would've been neat

[reef stump]

XQs dmg isn't really broken bc he can't snapshot and while XL comps are high on the list, its not like they completely dominate

XQ is also heavily ST focussed, which makes up for his somewhat high C6 dmg

Gives him a niche where his dmg shines and situations where it doesn't

Its certainly exceptional that they can be counted with the upper echelon of 5* units, but in terms of overall game balance they are not game breaking

[proud leaf]

He's made to be put into hutao vape comps that's why his ICD is so high

[reef stump]

Yeah but in the end he can still interfere with HTs vapes while providing only low damage, basically no dmg buffing Support and that all for a shield HT doesn't even necessarily need.

Even if you make up with a hydro infused Kaz Q to get around the stolen vapes its a far cry form the value a C6 Gorou provides to a Geo team or what C6 Sara can do for Electro units.

[storm tulip]

he is really not, gorou=pile of artifacts

he has no actual kit

his Q is only really used for what you already have in E

and if it werent for a4 there would no actual reason to ever waste time pressing your Q button

bennet xingqiu are interacting with the battlefield, the enemies and your team in some way, gorou is only really buffing, and has no actual gameplay of his own

sara/xingqiu/bennet can be built for themselves and perform either reasonable or very well and arent just there for their team, the same can be said for sucrose/kazuha too for example

gorou while he is an amazing buffer, just has no actual interactive gameplay

[alpine crown]

how does bennett ineract more than gorou?

[reef stump]

Didn't know performance was somehow a gameplay evaluation. And saying Sara is any better is a joke. She is almost exactly the same, just way less practical and with a nuke over a sustained turret.

And I rather have a practical Buff Bot that enables me to use the units that actually take the field to their fullest extend than have some ultra budget gameplay I'm never gonna use at the cost of that units functionality or them being entirely overshadowed in their abilities by other units truly made for the job.

[muted arrow]

yeah I'd say gorou is better than sara

both are very niche

but gorou is basically invaluable for the team

[reef stump]

I'm not gonna argue against the new 4* being inferior to the rekease ones in terms of gameplay and general applicability, because thats undoubtedly true.

But I don't think Gorou is particularly egregious.

[muted arrow]

I mean you could argue that in his niche gorou is as strong as those dudes, who are of course that strong in general

sara on the other hand, idk

[reef stump]

I do not mean performance but also eprformance and kit depth

bc its true that Sucrose for instance can do more than just being a EM + VV Bot

where Gorou doesn't really have that duality to him

he is just precisely one thing

But so is Sara

and so is Thoma from what it looks

Rosaria is a slighlty different Kaeya clone

DIona isn't really versatile either

and Xinyan failed exactly bc she did too much at once w/o Mhy willing to give her the power budget to still be great at one of the things she does or have the combination of her kit being particularly desirable.

[muted arrow]

well I wouldn't say gorou is that basic, continuous crystallize pull is pretty clever

as a concept

[reef stump]

Gorou has a lot of utility and is very practical and comfy

huge range on his effects

good uptimes on what he provides

No weird more annoying than helpful needs to fire a 0 dmg CA to trigger effects

that just gets deleted by a Cons

[storm tulip]

it is not about his performance, it is, what is gorou bringing gameplay wise?

he has an automatic Q that requires no interaction from you except being near an enemy, and an insta cast E that deals damage, you press E and Q and switch out, and the remainder is gameplay that any archer in the game can have.

None of his abilities interact meaningful with the enemies on the battlefield or have any meaningful mechanics you have to play around, I'm not asking for a numbers buff at all, he could have his mediocre damage but I would much rather his Q was a more interesting ability than just a slightly better version of his E

Sara works very bad in praticality, but as a core design her ability tries to interact with your characters and enemies, has an interesting co-op element to her and her Q is at least unique in the way it deals damage and can give other party memebers a buff

in terms of single player gameplay she is pratically just as boring, but in co-op she is at least interesting in what she can do

mona is similar, but a taunt at least interacts with enemies at a core and her Q is a cc ability on top of a buff

bennet has gameplay of himself, not because he is good, but because his kit interacts with himself to have core gameplay patterns that are interesting in themselves

gorou is just...... boring. he is an amazing unit, and I dont see him getting any amazing meaningful gameplay patterns at this point in development, unless it is a complete c4 change into something that is more interesting for himself which I heavily doubt, but he completely lacks in any interaction, the crystallize shard magnet is the only semblance he even has of it

[reef stump]

Gameplay wise he allows you to act freely with your acutal on-field characters. Thats ofc not merit to himself but merit to his Team.
He also draws in Crystallize as a new gimmick that is probably MHY's way of trying to make players utilize the reaction more. Idk if we have seen Gorou's Q icd, if not, maybe he can be an EM Crystallize bot as a Pseudo Shielder?

Otherwise Gorou's Q can also be called unique given its a Buff zone that moves alongside you and offers automatic ticking damage rather than needing to trigger it. The dmg part on it is more held back than Sara due to a complete lack of Bow options and a pretty low Base DEF. Iirc he has like 65% of ALbedo's DEF MV across a rotation in total.

He is certainly not a very interactive unit. But how you value his gameplay aspects seems more subjective than a great argument why he would be a particularly badly designed unit.

[muted arrow]

he's a comfort unit

all of geo is designed to be comfort

[storm tulip]

the dmg part of it is not more held back than sara due to a bow, it is completely held back, by lack of weapon, supports and a way shittier base stat to scale from to begin with, not to mention, sara's doesnt have the most amazing scaling ever, but has good AoE and is dealt instantly which almost always has more value than sustained damage, especially when said instant scaling basically outdamages the sustained one motion value wise and it can easily be triple of what gorou can dish out when team buffs are taken into account

and yes, he does have around 65% of albedo's def scaling, if you dont include that albedo has a weapon that significantly increases it making it less than half of that, and that this only happens when you have a specific constellation. And then you can consider that one is an elemental skill while the other is tied to an 80 energy cost elemental burst
even saying "but it provides a great team buff" is not an argument here, because the elemental skill does that on its own, the elemental burst just very slightly increases the buff provided and makes it mobile instead of area restrained (and at a base kit level, it even has reduced uptime compared to the skill)

still the point is not his damage or his buff ability, he could deal no damage for all I care for this discussion (as I said as a support unit he is amazing for his comps, way better than sara), the point is his kit is not doing anything that engages the player with a combat scenario

and while I do agree on the full EM bot thing (I heavily doubt his Q has ICD due to his mechanics), that is an interesting build, his kit is still not engaging, it is not really super interactive not with the player nor with the enemies in ways that I consider to be interesting

[reef stump]

It might not be interesting to you and thats totally fine and I can see why. But that still isn't a objective claim against his design.

Just as much as I can see why one would consider him boring I could see others appreciating that he can get 100% Buff Uptime on the Team and provides that via different means so you can split the Buff Uptime however you want. I can aslo see players enjoying the sheer comfiness of how he Buffs with the long duration and large area.

[storm tulip]

yes, sure, but you cant just sit here and convince me, "gorou has a fun kit, I love playing gorou, etc."

his kit is pretty much the definition of bland, and there are other charatcters in the game like him, he is not the first one for this to be the case, but I kinda expect more from genshin at this point

take for example, thoma

he is a shielder, he is a "pyro xingqiu" (not in enabling ability or power level, just how his kit works)

he is pretty much a copy of an already existant character

but they made his kit in a way that I find to be engaging within what he wants to do

[reef stump]

I'm not saying Gorou has a fun kit. I said he is a fine unit. And like I Said I rather have a pracitcla Support enhancing the main attraction of a Team rather than have random fancy stuff on Supports that either never gets used or acts the detriment of their practicality

[storm tulip]

the stacking shield mechanic has you wanting to actively use his kit, you need to be actively playing the game for it to pay off, it is not just a cast shield swap like diona's for example

[reef stump]

They certainly haven't done a great job on recent 4*s all in all and mostly just bruteforce them being desirable if at all

[storm tulip]

for example, we know that if thoma had no ICD that he would be enabling some better compositions and make hima a better support overall, but that is game balance wise

what I find interesting in him despite his mechanics being whatever is his kit managed to be interesting despite them in my eyes, he basically has the ability to heal his own shield and they managed to do so in the way that is not passive or boring, but has the player doing actions even with thoma off field to achieve it

[reef stump]

Thoma's active components make him a worse unit though for the use cases we can currently see and reduces the range of use cases where he is even applicable. And I don't even see that somehow being paid off by what he brings to the table

[storm tulip]

yes, they definitely make him a worse unit for the current use cases

but that was something that could have been fixed in balance

[reef stump]

For sure, its a mistake on the other end of the spectrum. Where Gorou fails at erngaging mechanics as per your description he fails at paying his mechanics off. Both issues could be fixed in their own ways.

[storm tulip]

they could be fixed in their own ways, but one is of a magintude way bigger than the other

thoma shows, devs got either some numbers too low, or that they wanted his powerlevel to be somewhat low

[reef stump]

Thats dependent on perspective tbh. For me Thoma is a much worse scenario than Gorou. I can deal with a Support being boring as long as he does his job, since the Carry can still be evry fun. A potentially fun Support that ends up being useless or detrimental to performance just ends up benched and unsued

[storm tulip]

thing is, thoma is also not just a pure support

his numbers are just good enough, and his gameplay and available supports too, that he can be used as a main if you really love his character

gorou shows that the design aspect behind him was for him not to be an interesting unit gameplay wise, it was to purely be a geo buff, which as a geo main I love and adore, but I am 100% sure there are people out there that were excited for gorou and to main him and play him and then looked at his kit and cried

[reef stump]

I haven't looked at his AAs, are they actually usable?

his Q dmg is just miserable

[storm tulip]

his Q dmg without reactions is slightly behind xiangling

iirc

[reef stump]

60% of XL

[storm tulip]

it is not a massive difference

from Q? if you get like 15+ procs at c6 vs c6? since we are talking about a main here

still, you can always use c6 bennet on him since he is melee, you can use shred, you can run a usable mono pyro comp with thoma

and have him as your main and play a reasonable game

now gorou?

we dont even have a good weapon for him

[reef stump]

T12 15 Proc Thoma Q is 1916 MV
T12 Pyronado is 3003 MV

And if you add Guoba

he gets completely demolished

Gorou certainly lacks tools I agree

[storm tulip]

how many xiangling hits did you count

[reef stump]

11

[storm tulip]

ok yeah 11 is fine

[reef stump]

backhanding is a bit of a spreadsheet meme imo

[storm tulip]

but then xiangling is per 20, thoma is per 18

c6 vs c6

and then thoma has a4

[reef stump]

Well XL has Guoba, 15% extra Pyro shred aswell

[storm tulip]

he gets closer than what you might think, I did these calcs before and thoma was like 80% on Q vs Q

[storm tulip]

yes, xiangling has guoba shred, but for "main carry" you would use xiangling as support

so in that sense they are equal

[reef stump]

Yeah, but then we are still talking unvaped XL damage and not the Vape XL that people normally associate with XLs dmg

And while I can certainly see Thoma being a comfy option for PP Teams

[storm tulip]

yeah, no, he only gets close on pure pyro vs pure pyro

once you get vapes/melts he has no shot at all

[reef stump]

It still looks rather underwhelming to me

[storm tulip]

it might be underwhelming

but you slot it and it clears relevant content with ease still

if I wanted to main gorou, I wouldnt even know where to begin

[reef stump]

Gorou certainly lacks the tools

I absolutely agree with that

If he had the same tools comparatively as Sara/Thoma

[storm tulip]

and I am sure that there are a lot of people out there that were very disappointed on that being the case

[reef stump]

he would probably be okay-ish just purely based on his MV

[storm tulip]

thing is he can never have them

ever

because he has split stat scaling

[reef stump]

Thats like saiyng Albedo never gets the tools bc he has split scaling

In relaity the vast majority of Gorou's dmg is DEF based

[storm tulip]

albedo has a fix for that, and is melee, so he at least has the chance of eventually getting an infusion

[reef stump]

so all he needs is a Bow supporting a DEF scaler and a second Geo Support

[storm tulip]

yes, but there is none

not a geo support

nor a defense support

that is not him

[reef stump]

Someone has to be the first

[storm tulip]

and the bigger issue is

you wouldnt be maining him

if you build him for defense

well, you could, but his on-field play

is all atk% based

[reef stump]

Ah, yeah, that is true

but while I get the frustration

I don't tihnk every units needs to have viable on-field capabilities for the sake of it

[storm tulip]

I think they need to have viable options

not good ones

[reef stump]

What is viable now, might not be viable anymore in a year anyway lookign at Abyss Trends

[storm tulip]

like barbara you have charged atk vapes, qiqi she actually has some pretty decent MVs on her autos, etc.

[storm tulip]

yes, but that can be true even for the current top-tier meta dps

very unlikely, but possible

the relevant point here

is that you got to play those characters

while they were viable

at a bare minimum

[reef stump]

I don't think all characters even before Gorou really subscribe to that unless you have completely over the top investment for them.

And on that note if you completely overgeared a Gorou and gave hima Harp, SC and what else you could probably do okay. Haven't seen his AA MV/s though

And sure that compeltely screws his ability functionality

but so do you screw Barbara's or Diona's healing if you want to build dmg on them

Thoma's shield also becomes considerably weaker if you go full dmg on him

So where do you draw the line for that ?

[storm tulip]

well those 3 cases not only are from HP scaling characters, which get less of an impact from noninvestment over a defense one, due to flower artifacts, but are from 3 of them that have actually decent damage access

barbara from vape, diona from c4 and reactions, thoma from having medium damage overall at a base already

all of those are also from the core 4 elements of the game

which have a plethora of supports to help them

[reef stump]

Yeah, but are they necessarily at a line where they can be considered viable? Like can you actually go and clear Abyss with them as the Main DPS w/o ludicrous ivnestment?

[storm tulip]

yeah

well, depends what you consider ludicrous investment on them

I could slap an amazing 4pc wanderer's set on my barbara and go and clear abyss with her, but I didnt farm the set for her

same can be said for a 2pc crimson 2 pc glad or 4pc shime set for thoma

(which is also another thing, c6 bennet allows you to play hu tao with both xiangling and thoma, so thoma specifically also has that as an option)

[reef stump]

But in that Team Thoma is not the Main DPS

which was the argument

[storm tulip]

in what team

[reef stump]

Pretty surely I can jsut use a Gorou as a Beidou Driver and clear that way

[storm tulip]

thoma/bennet/xingqiu/kazuha(sucrose)

he is the main dps

[reef stump]

Regarding the PP option you mentioned

[storm tulip]

in mono pyro fairly sure he would still be doing the majority of the damage

since he is autoing

you could do the same with xiangling and get better numbers

but he is still the main source of damage if you want him to be

oh you think I was talking about hu tao xiangling thoma

no

I was talking about playing bootleg hu tao

via c6 bennet

[reef stump]

Ah, ok

[storm tulip]

yeah, like my zhong with a 4pc shime dishes out like 70k charged vapes by doing this, fairly sure that is better than a lot of hu taos out there

[reef stump]

Yeah but thats beyond reasonable investment to pull that off

[storm tulip]

i mean it is artifacts and talent level 8 zhong, r1 homa

it is also hp sands

cause I have no shime atk sands

[reef stump]

And I'm pretty sure if you put that level of investment into a Physical AA DPS Gorou you could get by with that aswell.

[storm tulip]

what level?

artifacts and a r1 5 star and lvl 8 talent?

[reef stump]

At a level where you can generate 70k ZL CAs

[storm tulip]

yeah that level is what I'm describing, it is just supports working for you favorably

which is a huge thing gorou lacks

[reef stump]

And if you jsut commit to a pyhsical NA build the DEF scaling restrcitions fall away

[storm tulip]

no not really

for example with my zhong build, or even a pike phys one

he is still doing decent damage with E and Q

in fact they both have geo dmg in that sense, so a hybrid build lets you still take some advantage of your skills

in both cases, he has supports that enable that so I can play him how I want

gorou has neither supports nor weapons, nor the base stats, nor the kit

the best thing I see currently is like an heavy crit damage atk% build with c6 +albedo+zhongli

focusing on weakspot crits

in fact that is another huge issue with gorou, it is that he is a defense scaling ranged character

meaning he has shit base defense to make up for range

[reef stump]

Thats vehemently insisting on using a kit not designed for that kind of thing rather than looking for a way around it. I'm however absolutely not interested in mathing out whether a physical NA Gorou build or a Headshot Geo Build has more dmg potential or has any form of merit to viability or not, so I won't go that route.

This entire thing is basically on another planet from my own standards and perspectives, so arguing based on a nebulous standard for viability isn't something I have any expertise for, nor motivation to do.

I much rather have my favorite character be a Gorou Type Support than be a Thoma. At best I can agree that for those who wanted Gorou to be functional as a proper on-field unit is unfortunate, but I don't share the perspective that this should be a given for every unit regardless of role or kit.

[storm tulip]

Well some things can be fixed relatively easy though

Like if gorou c4 for example was a similar constellation to diona's

You dont lose much value on the character itseld but cater to those who want to play them more actively

A lot of characters in general have a similar constellation which I dont mind, I look at them and think, it is not amazing value to me but I can see why they would do this for those who love playing with this character

In fact even sara has something similar to it too, in her case it doubles down as support utility too, which is even better

[reef stump]

Its certainly easy to fix, although I'd prefer if they did that more upfront as a gesture rather than lock an already more or less intended use case behind COns which is annoying tob oth the players that want the use case and the ones that don't want it

They could make his AA Talent scale on DEF rather than ATK

or let him have a Geo Infusion from his E/Q

would appear a lot more elegant and less intrusive to me

[storm tulip]

Yes, I agree I also believe that is why they swapped sara c2 with her ascension

Or c1

I dont remeber which one it was

[reef stump]

In Honkai for instance Oz gives Fischl an AA infusion despite her not being supposed to even use it much for optimal play.

C1 originally for Sara

[storm tulip]

But I also understand why they would lock it in constellations like they usually do

It is just marketing

Which I might not like, but I perfectly understand

[reef stump]

Question is if that marketing actually works for the players that spend accordingly

Its like the weird situation with C6 Childe

That Cons is almost infintiely more attractive to players that can never have it

than it is to players that have it

Since at that level the use case for C6 diminishes massively

outside of very niche fun runs where someone goes with a super whaled out Childe alone or in a Duo

[storm tulip]

Not exactly, especially like you said on players who spend accordingly

Because if you love childe enough that you would want to c6 him you would either be a whale anyway or have spent/saved with that goal in mind

In the first case your statement stands correct

In the second case not really

[reef stump]

I'm not too sure about that. I would think they would be much more succesful if it was a C2 like Raiden that baits enough with achievability and still exists for players on a power level where its genuinely desirable.
C2 Raiden in particular proved that point pretty massively

[storm tulip]

Well we have a general confirmation that a lot more people got c2 than in general

But we dont know exactly how much revenue that was

Raiden banner timing completely skews any notion we could possibly have from revenue values from said banner due to bonus resets

[reef stump]

The reset certainly skews the data we have, yeah

[storm tulip]

We also dont know how much or less popular her c6 was compared to c2 stops

For example you might have gotten 25% of the playerbase to spend a bit to get c2, but we dont know how many of the medium-big whales decided to stop at just c3 due to lack of value from other constellations

[reef stump]

True

I'd generally think that its more profit margin to have a higher amount spending at a medium level than it is to have a few more buy into C6. Mostly bc at this point there is a dedicated whale base that will pull R5 C6 as a standard. But I obviously have no data to back that claim

[storm tulip]

Like I think if 3.6% of the playerbase would have gotten c6 and stopped at c3 instead you would actually lose money if only 25% of the playerbase went for c2

And saying "only" 25% is incorrect

Like that is a huge amount of people spending there

[reef stump]

I think 3.6% to 25% is vastly larger ratio than the actual figures regarding people willing or capable to go to C6 over C2

but w/o data this is just an opinions exchange at any rate.

[storm tulip]

Yeah

If it is 1% of the playerbase getting c6 r5 characters on a regular basis I would actually be surprised

[reef stump]

It should be way lower

[pearl bone]

1% is a huge number

[reef stump]

especially when you include the people that barely play at all

that are still counted for MAUs

Even in a communtiy space like this 1% legit whales would already be high

[storm tulip]

But for example going from very minor laughable data from spiral abyss eula vs raiden (which is a sample count of some of the most active players, so way higher values of constellation spending) there is 25% of raiden users with c2+c3 vs 7% of eula users and then 4% raiden c6 users vs 6% c6 eula users

That 2% difference actually offset the 18% extra players who got her to at least c2 if we say thos players stopped at c3 instead

[pearl bone]

since we dont have the data, i assume player who 36* Abyss > player who dabble in Abyss > player who play casually is one order of magnitude in player count

and then from there you have the data from that Abyss count

[storm tulip]

You tgink there are more players who 36 star abyss than players who didnt?

Or did you make a mistake?

[pearl bone]

1>10>100

1 = players who 36 regularly, 10 = players who Abyss, 100 = casual players

[storm tulip]

Oh you were using them as arrows and not actual "greater than" signs

Yeah, that is definitely the case by far

[pearl bone]

and from there you get a disproportionate share of C6R5ers for each segment

[storm tulip]

Yeah I'm just trying to get a general view of how it is within a more active playerbase who are also more likely to spend in the game, as I daid, data is laughable, not even just from selection of players, but from overall sample size, etc.

It was more for fun than an actual objective wvaluation

[pearl bone]

p much, we dont have data

the more accurate assessment would be, go ask the mod team, the amount of Dolphin Tao vs Whale Tao vs total members in the server

it's actually a somewhat good baseline

[storm tulip]

Not even

If you are in a genshin discord you are getting close to that sample size we took from anywyas

[pearl bone]

if you dont see more than 100 Whale Taos in the server, that is what... ~0.06%

[storm tulip]

And hu tao is also a very poor representation as a character of what we want to see

Since her constellations are very unappealing except for c1

[pearl bone]

you dont have to own C6 Tao to be whale Tao, just any C6

or multiple C6

we are talking about the member role

not whaling on Tao specifically

[storm tulip]

Regardless, I would actually be surprised if c2 raiden brought more revenue than it being more so neutral than what they were expecting to begin with

[reef stump]

Using a large Discord Server sample would be a good start and that would still be optimistic with regards to the number of whales and Dolphins, since more invested players are more likely to participate in such communities

[storm tulip]

Yes, but you would still get a very skewed player sample in favor of medium spenders over even large or f2ps

I would wager that these communities have a higher quantity of dolphins compared to both f2p amd whale sample size, because usually those are the people looking for more unformation and help since they want to spend wisely, while the big fish mostly dont mind and the f2ps are obviously still very well represented for the same reasons but also most of the f2ps are not engaged enough with the game to be part of these communities

[pearl bone]

i actually want to see Childe's banner performance this month

maybe around $10mil

[rare pendant]

did they just give another buff to itto weapon?

[reef stump]

The Buff was already announced and accounted for last Week. It simply was pushed to the Beta Servers this Week

[rare pendant]

oh

[potent turtle]

how bad is gorouless itto?

[ocean bison]

I want to know too since i dont like main dps characters that are only good with another specific character

[reef stump]

We don't have comprehensive Team Calcs and likely won't get them till his release either

However, from what we currently know

It seems like you really want to play Itto only in Geo Teams and in those only Gorou and Albedo really fit his field time demands

So if you don't want to commit to a Geo Team and are looking for a flexible DPS with a lot of comp options

I can't recommend Itto at all

[teal sable]

Sigh

😖 I love him but he's getting harder and harder to justify

Maybe I'll only use him in overworld

[tranquil widget]

any thoughts on c0/c2 itto for itto+gorou duo clears?

[storm tulip]

?

are we just ignoring zhongli exists?

you can always just play itto zhongli flex flex

will it be better than gorou albedo? no
that is kinda like asking if childe reverse vape is as good without xiangling/bennet

but currently any geo char+zhongli work well together, itto is definitely no exception to that

you could run itto/zhongli/bennet/xiangling and play a great comp still

[alpine crown]

doesnt sound nearly as good

weaker subdps and way less energy on itto

[reef stump]

Given that XL/Bennett likes time funneling or takes increased ER for it that doesn't sound remotely as good as Dugtrio and might run into the situations where I can just ask the question "Why do you even run Itto there?"

Ofc we still have to look into concrete Calcs once Itto is out and we have a complete and reliable data set. But I'm sceptical Itto is still in a desirable position if he runs w/o both Gorou and Albedo.

I value performative differences highly

[muted arrow]

https://streamable.com/32h2x4

N1 dash into CA uh

feels smooth

[storm tulip]

the dash is the regular dash he always does going into CA stance

[muted arrow]

oo I see

[storm tulip]

simply saying only gorou and albedo are good with him though is completely incorrect

zhongli is literally the easiest slot into any geo carry

[reef stump]

ZL fits pretty much just aswell as he fits into any comp, yeah, should've mentioned him aswell. Altohugh I don't think he as the sole Geo Support is satisfactory

[storm tulip]

and honestly, it is pretty much the same ER wise on itto

like it is a 7% difference in ER requirement from having a better support over gorou c5 in bennet c5

only when gorou is c6 does he overtake him

and this is assuming that only half of pillar resonances+pillar spawn hit an enemy pretty much

[reef stump]

I'm more concerned with overall Team DPS there than just Itto's energy

Itto Burst CD is listed at 14s. I hope this doesn't contain C2 extra energy

[muted arrow]

well there what you wonder about is how xl compares to albedo and how that itto compares to gorou itto

if it's 20% below in team dps it's already not considerable as a great alternative imo

[slow vapor]

Based on available spreadsheets, who’s better in terms of damage itto or hu tao

[storm tulip]

it doesnt, it is just on 14 seconds because it makes it easier for me to do c2 calcs

and doesnt impact anything else since rotation time for c0 is 20 seconds

[reef stump]

kk, good, just wanted to make sure

[red umbra]

does the community already have an idea how will best team for itto look? don't know if I should pull for albedo

[slow vapor]

Itto gorou albedo/ning flex is what I would use, dunno if it’s the best tho

[ancient pecan]

or geo mc

will sac greatsword be any good on him? i remember it being mentioned some time ago

[hasty quail]

From the look of it Itto's best team (dugtrio) will be about equal to Hu Tao's best team (vape squad) so your choice. We still don't know how he fairs against shields

also there is a chance ofc he or gorou get another buff in the last week of beta testing so wait and see till the end of Hu Tao's banner imo

alternatively, just go with whoever you like more as a chara/design wise

[slow vapor]

My regrets are immeasurable

I’ll have like 70 pulls with he comes out so ig I could try to go for him

If I didn’t pull for Tao I would have been able to atleast pull on his weapon

[alpine crown]

gmc may not even be a terrible replacement for albedo

his dmg is weak but comes out fast, gives 10% cr in his field, actually allows zhongli pillar to hit enemies

[reef stump]

Issue that you might run into is that you only get 1 GMC E per rot in an Itto Team unless you do extended rotations. ALbedo on the other hand starts to become quite serious business with his new Gear and Gorou

[alpine crown]

ya, albedo is undoubtedly better

i just dont wanna pull him, and the difference between the two might not be as big as i thought

[low valve]

What's the detriment to just running 4geo as opposed to, say, 3geo and fischl?

[reef stump]

It boils down to the losses one considers acceptable. While its definitely a bit early to truly exclude most somewhat reasonable possibilities I tend to be almost overly careful with throughput differences.

Guess I've been around scenarios where a few % dmg can make or break something, so my upfront reaction to a comp being say 20% behind another is basically "well, that sounds pretty terrible to me". But thats ofc not necessarily the case in Genshin, where there are other factors that can far exceed such differences and full optimization is almost always overkill.

So when I make such statements its always with regards to that sentiment, where I consider 20% or even 10% difference considerable downgrades that in my eyes can change drastically how valuable I consider that unit or the aforementioned comp to be.

[reef stump]

At the most elemental checks. In an ideal situation I'd currently absolutely recommend Quad Geo for Itto. Itto/Albedo/Gorou/ZL in particular.

[low valve]

I'm guessing albedo can be switched for a different geo battery if he isn't an option?

[reef stump]

ALbedo isn't there for the battery, even though it helps. He is just the ideal Sub DPS for the comp by taking no field time and getting buffed significantly by Gorou

[low valve]

Ohh I see I see

[reef stump]

So you can ofc take another Sub if you're willing to take the dmg loss that will likely be the result

[low valve]

He isn't like

Needed for the team I'm guessing

Cus in the early early leaks we got the "itto NEEDS albedo"

[reef stump]

Functionally he is replacable

[low valve]

Alright

Just wanted to make sure

Thank you

[storm tulip]

Also in terms of the comp overall functionality albedo is more replaceable than zhongli is, in the sense that it is easier to find someone who fits a damage dealing role like albedo is doing with some battery potential, than zhongli's role in the comp:

-buffing overall team damage

-enabling geo resonance reliabily to keep the 15% all dmg buff from it on field character

• for quite a few people, protect the serpent spine stacks that is likely being paired with itto

-Bringing team er requirements down

-Decent subdps damage

The main issue is that there are not a lot of characters that have abilities that last through itto rotation to reliabily proc crystallize throughout it and have good damage and/or low er requirements to be useful enough

For example with zhongli you can reliabily run ning or geo MC as the last slot, or even bennet, while with albedo there is a harder time finding someone that can meet all the requirements the comp needs then

[reef stump]

In a world where Crystallize is unreliable I agree that ZL is a functionally more pivotal character. And while I can absolutely see some people get by with just Crystallize, for the broader playerbase and across a multitude of scenarios however bringing a shield should be very important

[storm tulip]

Yeah I think it is less of an issue if you are planning on using whiteblind/redhorn, because not only are those weapons making your crystallize shields tankier to begin with, the loss on losing a shield and taking a couple of hits is relatively low impact

Serpent spine however is making those crystallize shields squishier, especially at low refinements, and losing your shield and taking damage has way higher impact

[low valve]

Zl pog

[reef stump]

For sure and unless you actually have Redhorn I would see it as cheaper to commit to a shield than give up on SS

Especially since it is actually very questionable if taking ZL is even a loss

in most scenario probably not

[storm tulip]

Yeah zhongli is not a loss

Like at all

Especially when he can run 4pc ToM with Adc build in a gorou comp

[low valve]

Itto has for whatever reason decreased resistance in ult form so I think having that consistent high uptime shielder is nice

[reef stump]

Even just taking his RES shred Team DPS losses are usually below 10% and thats completely ignoring any of ZLs damage while assuming your last slot Sub DPS is as stacked as your Itto

[storm tulip]

It is purely to balance his high defense stat a little bit

He was way too fucking tanky for his dps output

[low valve]

Man

That's unfortunate

Same way tao has hp decrease

[reef stump]

He is still gonna be tanky, just not "Lul Abyss Maguu does 5k dmg to me"

[low valve]

Sadge

[storm tulip]

Yeah he is still over twice as tanky as a regular carry

Before he was over 3 times as tanky

It was crazy

[slow vapor]

Serpent spine good for itto or no

[reef stump]

his second best weapon after Redhorn

[slow vapor]

I see, ty

Also in terms of damage is hutao better or itto?

[spiral isle]

single target yes

aoe no

[ancient pecan]

do we know how good his aoe is?

because sure it's better than hu tao but that's not saying much

[real phoenix]

no, so that's why i wouldn't say anything about it. Or at least we don't have a clear video showcasing it

[reef stump]

His hitboxes look a bit weird. While the range doesn't seem bad per se I got the impression that the slashes might be able to miss enemies on the opposite side of you depending on theri size. So despite atleast good visual range the nautre of his attacks might have blind spots.

I'd definitely wait till release before making any calls on his AoE. Animations can be misleading and we dont have good footage for it

[real phoenix]

did you see in the new video hitting the hilichurl with ushi didn't give itto a stack @reef stump

[reef stump]

Yeah

but its so hard to tell if thats actually a thing or some server based issue

[ancient pecan]

[real phoenix]

also the frames from the clean itto showcase where i counted the frame that Ushi's 6s cd starts is also the same frame where a hit is registered in the new video

[reef stump]

So it has basically no travel time

[real phoenix]

a single frame if super specific, but basically, yeah

[nocturne sorrel]

that's good news for fitting an extra E at the end of his burst

[ancient pecan]

what if you go with sac greatsword?

[muted arrow]

[reef stump]

Sac GS doesn't look too good since Itto doesn't need that much ER in his comps, so you can't get any Subs out of the extra energy and the one extra E cast doesn't improve things to a degree to truly make it good.
Its somewhat usable but it shouldn't be your goal, especially since you want R5 to even get it consistently have value

[muted arrow]

ngl the more I think about itto the less I like the fact that to get the complete version of him you gotta go all the way and get c6 gorou

that's quite the expense for a character who's not exactly meta dominant

[reef stump]

Itto's dmg potential looks like he can play with the big Teams

I however don't seem him being speedrun material

in the same way Xiao isn't

[muted arrow]

yeah but my issue is more about how gorou's c6 is like a 15-20% damage increase for itto and the rest of the geo team

[reef stump]

Its definitely significant, esepcially if you have both Itto and Albedo

[muted arrow]

and without that, prob itto still does well but not quite as impressive

[reef stump]

Similar to Sara, just that Itto is less friendly towards most Sub DPS whereas Raiden loves to have them

so missing C6 on Gorou might hurt a little more than not running Sara with Raiden

Technically you can bolster up Itto with Bennett aswell, but I don't think thats what a lot of people would really want to do

[storm tulip]

It could have a 2 second animation for fitting it at the end and it wouldnt matter (obviously would impact the rotation with the first cast but ignore that)

All buff/infusions like itto's, for example raiden or hu tao, will be extended throughout an attack animation if said animation started while the buff was still active so in terms of ushi damage it was never a concern it was more so for the beginning animation counts

This is why you try to use hu tao Q near the end of her E if you are good with mental timers

[ancient pecan]

oh
so now that we know his and gorou's energy gen it's confirmed he won't need ER?
that's good

[reef stump]

He needs some ER but not too much

130% seems to be the top end in Geo Comps, which you can get almost for free

[storm tulip]

Yeah for triple geo around 130%

Less if gorou can actually get 2 fav procs with r5 fav bow in a rotation, but it is tight

[ancient pecan]

sac gives exactly 30%

but i see
it's easy to get that amount from substats

[storm tulip]

Yeah, and quad geo has itto at like 107%

Also you are not funneling gorou particles into itto in any of these cases specifically

Because the rotation doesnt really fit that, if you feel like you need to funnel due to the rng nature of zhong/albedo energy gen you can do so to make up for it

[tidal violet]

hi hiii can we prefarm gorou’s arti set? if yes what are his stats priority? also which weapon? figured i should get ready his gear at least since people said albedo and itto will be using the new def set so pre-farming won’t be possible in their case

[ancient pecan]

iirc depending on your team/needs gorou can use 4p archaic petra, noblesse or EoSF

as for weapon it seems like there is no bow that's tailor made for him so fav bow should be fine

[tidal violet]

mine would be albedo itto gorou fischl unless somebody replaces fischl as the best flex for the team

[ancient pecan]

i would probably go with noblesse or maybe petra depending on how strong your fischl is

if you have a decent noblesse set for him i would just use that and save that resin to farm other stuff

like maybe exp or mora

def scalers kinda like levels because they can't just use a strong weapon to boost their damage

[alpine crown]

big brain is using instructor for stronger crystallize shields

[normal silo]

whats itto's pros and cons??

[ancient pecan]

he's geo
the pro: he uses mostly geo supports, freeing up units for your other abyss team
the con: you have to level up those geo supports for him

some units like gorou i'm pretty sure will never see use outside a noelle/itto team for example

maaaybe in some crazy comps like c6 xinyan + geo resonance

[storm tulip]

For those that dont have zhongli and have albedo, gorou+albedo can be your last 2 slots in hu tao comps, put petra on gorou to buff xingqiu and you buff albedo damage by a fair bit, no shred for hu tao unfortunately, so that is why he is a zhong replacement there only when you dont have him

Gorou does make your active carry around 25% tankier than usual with E/Q so crystallize might actually be viable for him as a full em bot (or Em/Geo/Em, er/em/em) with stringless/fav as a weapon for example.

And if it happens that his initial Q damage also magnets a crystallize shard instantly he will be a fairly decent petra support

Also at c6 he is useful in other geo comps too like ning/zhong/gorou/bennet, especially after they changed how c6 works

[gusty turret]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact_Leaks/comments/qlqq68/v4_itto_is_here/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

[muted arrow]

meh

[storm tulip]

hey guys itto base atk got buffed by 12 and base defense by 9

wasnt announced

[muted arrow]

it's more

Itto's stats has been updated on honey

Base atk 191 -> 203

Base def 930 -> 939

The interesting thing is, a CN source states the actual change is

Base hp 13703 -> 12858

Base atk 191 -> 227

Base def 930 -> 959

A supposed uncle in this NGA thread (https://bbs.nga.cn/read.php?tid=29274913) says the actual change is the 2nd one.

I think the second makes more sense regardless because they usually don't improve some stats with no decrease on some other

[storm tulip]

well, honey in chinese still states the values I mentioned

so for now I will keep those in mind

[low valve]

i thought they changed nothing except wording

[steep marsh]

👀

[reef stump]

Thats some really minor tuning

[muted arrow]

biggest thing is prob that it makes noblesse and ToM a bit more valuable

[reef stump]

Insignificantly so

The change Honey currently has is less than 1% more damage

and makes NO/ToM give 2 more ATK

[muted arrow]

was thinking about the chinese version mostly

but yeah still small

[reef stump]

CN version would be around 3% more dmg and NO/ToM would give 7 ATK more

[storm tulip]

hey, it is like 90 extra dmg on kesaragi crits from NO+ToM now, totally a gamechanger

[frigid hound]

Broken

[reef stump]

Now he has to be the best DPS in the game with those over the Top Buffs

[storm tulip]

Well, the game wouldnt lie to me, now would it?

[reef stump]

Never

[muted arrow]

well it says oni

prob not much competition

[red umbra]

Considering that the only other oni

Is fucking dead

[storm tulip]

you can technically read it as 2 different statements, one that he is the strongest, the other that he is the most terrible oni in all the land

and then turns out he is not the strongest in game

sue mihoyo for false advertisement

[frosty hill]

Do you guys think like itto Zhongli gorou and ningguang would be an okay team

[storm tulip]

yes, it would be okay, especially when gorou is c6

ning is worse than albedo in the comp purely because she takes longer field time than albedo

I know that personally my ningguang with c6 gorou would deal 380k on average with her usual rotation for me, but this also extends overall team rotation by around 2 seconds

also

3% extra dps

[reef stump]

It certainly looks shiny

Should probably do some more Calcs for different comps, including non-C6 Gorou, ZL and Bennett

to get a better picture for realistic C0 Comps and non-Albedo stuff

[muted arrow]

honestly that's pretty decent for gorouless itto

full amp with gorou that's some c2 raiden territory

[reef stump]

C2 Hyper Raiden at that level of investment is way higher

so depends on which C2 Raiden you're looking at

Its nevertheless really promising C0 damage

[muted arrow]

well say you're comparing raiden-kazu-bennett-xinq to itto-albedo-zl-gorou since the roles are similar

of course raiden with the whole hyper team buffing her deals more damage than itto + gorou alone, but when you consider that's just two slots for itto team that's quite great

[reef stump]

Thats approximated Hyper Raiden

[muted arrow]

it's in the kaz + ben range which is insane imo

[reef stump]

15% ahead is a significant difference

But yeah Itto doesn't look bad at all

[muted arrow]

it's 2 slots vs 3 tho

[reef stump]

Kaz does more damage than Albedo

in Hyper vs Itto

atleast as long as there is a second target around for the swirls

[alpine crown]

is this via an aoe mod?

[reef stump]

So even if you add Albedo the advantage persists

Thats purely dmg per target at very high investment

[alpine crown]

huh

[muted arrow]

true but the overloads can also easily make you lose damage against various enemies

[alpine crown]

including al's burst?

[reef stump]

Most things that can be knocked uncomfortably far away don't survive it

not against C2 Raiden

I already hardly ever have that issue with C1

[alpine crown]

actually ya even with gorou, al's dmg doesnt seem to surpass kazuha's

just had to double check my stuff

[reef stump]

Albedo

[alpine crown]

at low investment its worse bc em

[muted arrow]

yeah kazuha does like 600k damage with overloads for me against 2 enemies

[reef stump]

Kazuha

[muted arrow]

albedo prob has some aoe hits too but likely doesn't reach kazuha

[reef stump]

Albedo Q dmg tanks hard with Spindle

3k per Blossom, so even at 7 over 2 hits its only 15k dmg more

[muted arrow]

still when you compare full teams albedo itto zl gorou to raiden kazuha sara bennett I don't think first team is much worse from the looks of it

[alpine crown]

think im counting too many swirls lol

[reef stump]

Haven't calced ZL and Sara yet

So can't put that together right now

[alpine crown]

you could prob just neglect their damage and get a decent estimate

[reef stump]

But w/o the 2 C2 Hyper is 1.67M DPR assuming Bennett is 0 dmg. Dugtrio+ZL Ittowould be (828k+334k)*1.095 = 1.272M DPR

forgot Gorou, uhhh

lemme check

82k

[alpine crown]

does this include 2 plunges btw?

[reef stump]

Thats 2x E per rot, yes

1.362M roughly approximated for Itto+Gorou+Albedo + ZL w/o ZL dmg

1.676M for Hyper Raiden w/o Sara and Bennett dmg

and thats R5 Wavebreaker Raiden, not R1 EL, its however R1 Redhorn Itto

But thats only a very rough approximation and no full blown Team Calc

[muted arrow]

yeah, I'd argue zl has more damage in his rotation than sara in raiden hypercarry tho most likely

[reef stump]

ZL casting Q extends rotation time

not saying it isn't worth, but its not free time wise

[muted arrow]

his E ticks aren't easy to calc either since it's so volatile in practice

[reef stump]

Yep

I think ti could be notable, but difficult how it translates into practice

You could get Resonance procs aswell, but how many realistically is also difficult to say

[muted arrow]

still without the final calcs that puts itto comp at 80% of raiden hypercarry, which is less than I thought but still pretty respectable

[reef stump]

While I'm at it, lets check how it looks with EL

[muted arrow]

iirc raiden national is around that mark as well

raiden c0

[reef stump]

Haven't calced that yet. And comparing across investment and assumptions is a bit diffcult

[muted arrow]

yeah yeah just based on the calcs I remember

[reef stump]

R1 EL is 100k more on the C2 Hyper Train

In any case, C2 Raiden is a very high bar

If Itto translates into reality like he is sheeted and has some decent AoE he is looking pretty good

[storm tulip]

not REALLY, it is as volatile as overload knockback pretty much

like the enemies where counting E dmg becomes volatile have pretty much the same deal with overload, they kinda just die to the remainder of team damage

also the fact ushi is a taunt probably makes that even less volatile to begin with

for example in current 12-3 zhongli just gets 100% of his E+ resonance damage off very easily

[storm tulip]

also to note that albedo damage with zhongli shield shred goes up to kazuha overload with pyro swirled pretty much

[reef stump]

It does, but that doesn't really change the point

[storm tulip]

I think the biggest point of note between the 2 comps

is that neither of them want to use the same charcters

so you can just run both comps one on each half

[reef stump]

Yep. Itto generally is very attractive alone for leaving Bennett alone

Like you can play Bennett

but its not as desired as the comps that really want him

[storm tulip]

bennet is just less team dps than albedo is the thing

because to play bennet you cant really play albedo

you would need zhongli for geo resoance

[reef stump]

Yeah Itto/Gorou/Albedo/Bennett is practically unplayable

And ZLs shred alone is still half of what Bennett does there

[muted arrow]

anyway I think as a benchmark it makes more sense to consider itto without c6 gorou, but like c2

[reef stump]

I'm gonna get to that soon

So far has only been a potential analysis

Looking at Pre-C6 Gorou is going to be important in particular for non-Albedo situations

[muted arrow]

I think many are going to have to pick between albedo and c6 gorou

[storm tulip]

do you mean c2 itto or c2 gorou?

[muted arrow]

gorou

[storm tulip]

well, there is no real difference between c0 and c2

[muted arrow]

yeah but generally c2 is what's considered for release 4* iirc

around here

like sara was considered at c2

[storm tulip]

yeah what I mean is that there is not a real reason for gorou to be considered c2, because his uptime is pretty much 100% at base kit since it lasts for 11 seconds, potentially more if hit lag extends his Q like it does xingqiu's

9+2 like bennet Q is 12+2

[reef stump]

You also don't necessarily have Crystallizes anyway for Dugtrio+ZL

[storm tulip]

sara c2 actually improves dps by reducing her field time/giving you an extra buff on her

[storm tulip]

yeah, but for other comps

the main thing is that gorou actually deserves a consideration at c0 whereas sara kinda doesnt

because for itto fairly sure c0 gorou= c1 bennet

[reef stump]

Sounds about right

might even be more depending on what weapon Bennett has

since Gorou's Buff is completely independent of his own Stats

[storm tulip]

I know that c5 gorou vs c5 mist/aquila bennet, both t12 gorou is very slightly behind

but bennet also scales better with talent levels

so c0 vs c1 gorou/bennet the story is probably the other way around favoring gorou

yeah just checked and around 27k higher average damage per rotation c0 gorou vs c1 mist bennet favoring gorou, which overall is 3.6% higher

[muted arrow]

I think the interesting aspect is picking between c1-2 itto + c6 gorou vs albedo + c0 itto and c0-5 gorou

[storm tulip]

actually never mind my c5 vs c5 comparison, new itto buffs actually put c5 gorou above c5 bennet, it is now a 2.5% extra dmg per rotation for gorou buff over benny

[storm tulip]

not if you already have albedo

[muted arrow]

yeah ofc

[storm tulip]

this is actually funny to me

[reef stump]

I still have Bennett ahead by like 1.5%, but thats T13 NO Alley Flash

[storm tulip]

well I have noblesse on gorou too

[reef stump]

Ah, then it checks out, yeah, reverses the result

[storm tulip]

if there was anything else that would be useful for him to use, I would take it out, but to me noblesse just feels like the only real useful set to slap on him for the time being

it is between that and 4pc husk, but you already want to farm for albedo and itto a pretty decent set

[reef stump]

I agree on NO, jsut never put it into the Calc

[storm tulip]

and honestly even ningguang 4pc husk gets pretty close to 2pc glad 2 pc petra if we get jade regalia and it turns out to be like a jade cutter but for defense it would actually be her BiS set then

which is sad

please give me a good ning offensive set mihoyo

[reef stump]

Kinda sad how they left the ATK based Geos behind with Gorou and HooD

[muted arrow]

kinda weird how zl is hp scaling at this point

[reef stump]

They are just doing random shit and think about solutions later

[storm tulip]

well way back when the zhongli drama was ongoing they did mention that albedo/zhongli teammates would be coming in the future

I feel like itto/gorou are definitely albedo's

they phrased it in a way that seemed to imply seperate

[pearl bone]

Geo is just too secluded from the rest of the game meta 😔

Itto is nice as a design but the update (him, Geo, HooD, Albedo) is all centered around him

[storm tulip]

geo is secluded because the element is irrelevant to other elements in way too many ways

[pearl bone]

they need to rework crystallize

[storm tulip]

reaction: we have shielders in all other elements
shield breaking: just bring a claymore
support buffs: just bring anemo
dps: vape/melt are just way too broken, cant get buffed by anemo, base dmg is high, but not high enough to make up for it

[worldly mango]

Its irrelevant to most of the Geo characters too.
Lets give extra shields to the character who has 100% shield uptime

[reef stump]

They also made Petra too unwieldy in comparison to VV

[storm tulip]

yeah

kazuha was an even bigger slap in the face to petra

[reef stump]

Anemo is carried by VV pretty hard, but Petra just doesn't do remotely the same. Neither in power nor practicality

[storm tulip]

because kazuha a4 is what petra should have been

on trigger, off field, possible for multiple elements

[muted arrow]

crystallize should give instant shield if the geo character is on field

no orb on the floor bs

so they could change petra accordingly

[reef stump]

Crystallize should probably be able to stack

So you can actually let it replace a defensive Team Slot

since it does no damage

If Petra then worked off-field

Geo would be hella desirable

[storm tulip]

here is what I actually think would be neat for petra:

first of all switch its 2pc bonus with 2 pc bollide

2nd:
infusion on melee characters upon shield pick up of the shields type on 4pc + 35% buff remains the same

it would be a dps set not for a geo character, but would justify having a geo character in the party

[worldly mango]

i'd say maybe not infusion but extra dmg of the element type
(like how crescent pike procs extra dmg tics)

as infusion would interfere with phys characters

[storm tulip]

then just dont run an artifact set that synergizes poorly with your choice of team

[reef stump]

Infusion on Crystallize pick up would be really weird and janky

[storm tulip]

it is not a character ability