Itto Thread

[storm tulip]

Cause once xingqiu uses its stuff switching to a pyro aura is hard, so using vv into hu tao is gonna be a creative rotation process, i'm sure it is possible but it is not straightforward

[azure dagger]

yea personally i am probs still gonna run double geo for tao cuz comfort

and no kazuha

[hexed ridge]

Either way I think that Itto‘s damage is looking fairly promising and his kit doesn‘t seem to have any huge caveats unlike Eula for example. It‘s mostly gonna come down to whether or not geo teams can prove themselves to be flexible enough for future abyss, they need to consistently work on at least one side imo

[storm tulip]

They have for me so far

[red umbra]

We still don’t know his energy gen yeah?

[storm tulip]

We dont

[azure dagger]

i think the core of 3 Geo will be fine for all abyss unless the entire floor is exclusively mages and heralds lol

[proud leaf]

single damage cast should be 3 though, i think it should be fine to assume 3

of course, can always just assume 1,2,3 and calc for all

[azure dagger]

with enough investment the 3-skeleton core of gorou + itto + albedo could clear abyss by themselves, 4th unit can be flexible for shield breaks or flex

[proud leaf]

which imo is how it should be done when theorycrafting on stuff you can't be sure about anyway

[storm tulip]

I cleared herald/lector abyss with just ning+zhong

In less than 1min 30 for their half

Now ning is way better at killing shields than itto will be if he has default ICD which he should

Cause ning chews through ICDs really fast

[hexed ridge]

To be fair I‘ve never played geo in abyss, I don‘t know how well geo shieldbreak can work practically

[azure dagger]

how good is ning at breaking herald/lector shields? i've never tried geo against them

[azure dagger]

zhongli burst can easily take out over half of mage shields

albedo is useless against shields

[storm tulip]

Ning is good, zhong is either meh or very good, albedo is useless, noelle is awful

Geo mc is passable

[azure dagger]

gorou + itto + albedo + zhongli is such a dopamine comp

numbers exploding everywhere

it'll be right next to childe for aoe satisfaction lol

[hexed ridge]

We also don‘t really know how Itto specifically is going to work against shields. Claymores typically have it easier in that regard, maybe his special attacks have some form of special interaction with shieldbreak or line up nicely with icd

Anything can happen I guess

[storm tulip]

Yeah, i also wouldnt be surprised if sachimonji had no ICD

[azure dagger]

imagine itto burst CA applying 4U geo each hit

[storm tulip]

Due to it being 1 hit

[azure dagger]

you never use saichimonji

[storm tulip]

Now you need to fumble your hit

[azure dagger]

do you mean kesagiri?

[storm tulip]

No i mean sachimonji

[hexed ridge]

His E/NA/CA are going to have different icds for sure, maybe even that‘s something worth considering

[storm tulip]

Like you would have to fumble n1 and hit with sachimonji

[azure dagger]

hm even if saichimonji didn't have ICD i cant imagine using it is practical given his normals already give stacks during burst and the windup is long

[storm tulip]

Purely as a shield break rotation

[hexed ridge]

What I‘m trying to say it that Mihoyo went to such extent with 2.3 to make geo teams viable, giving them absurd stat buffs in the form of Gorou. I‘d be surprised if they didn‘t account for geo‘s main issue

[azure dagger]

but isn't using saichimonji practically impossible during burst

cuz to initiate it you use 1 NA at least anyway

thus starting his chain

unless you hit no enemies i guess

[storm tulip]

Yeah it is almost assuredly not pratical

[proud leaf]

hope anemo/xiao gets the same treatment, equality is great

[storm tulip]

Xiao has a lot other issues to address

Like having basically no synergy with anyone

Only the characters that work for everyone work with him

[hexed ridge]

People are speculating that Yunjin is going to be anemo Gorou, so who knows

[azure dagger]

if xiao gets a dedicated artifact support and an anemo sara/gorou in yunjin his personal dmg tho will be so high it wouldn't matter since he only needs sucrose

[proud leaf]

just need gorou but anemo, yea

[storm tulip]

Yeah but if yunjin is anemo gorou, kazuha/venti/yunjin/fill is probably still way better than whatever xiao is gonna be trying to do

[hexed ridge]

Chasm also got initially leaked with the release of a dedicated Xiao plunging set, but I doubt they‘d release 4 artifact sets in 2 patches

[azure dagger]

possibly but then that's 2 S-tier 5 star charas on one comp

[hexed ridge]

If Yunjin provided anemo shred, all the EM building anemo units wouldn‘t benefit from it

or crit damage even

[storm tulip]

If you mean those leaks with 4 artifacts sets including the copium kokomi one and the bad defense one, those are 100% fake if they werent obvious already

[storm tulip]

You wouldnt build EM is the thing

[hexed ridge]

Nah, I think it was back in spring when we all thought Chasm was 1.4 But even those leaks might‘ve been fake

[azure dagger]

i think i remember seeing that but considering it's never popped up again it's probs fake

a plunging dmg bonus artifact set wouldn't even be that good since xiao already has so much dmg bonus in his kit

and only one chara could ever use that artifact set lol

[storm tulip]

Yeah what xiao needs is 4pc emblem but atk% conversion instead of EBdmg pretty much

[azure dagger]

^

[storm tulip]

Or obviously a crit set but that is good for everyone

But honestly what xiao really needs is a good subdps that is pyro/hydro/cryo/electro that can buff him a bit

[red umbra]

Childe

[storm tulip]

He could transition to 4 VV being on field vv enabler and get a team boost dps instead of just trying to hyper carry a team that at this point can essentially trade him for c6 gorou and be better

[atomic sundial]

a sub dps that doesn't need NA CA or has energy issues

[red umbra]

T11 NA

[azure dagger]

inb4 cny lantern rite mihoyo releases yunjin with c6 - releases 500% ATK gale only on plunge attks

[storm tulip]

Yes c4 childe

[atomic sundial]

how would you design a unit that would even support Xiao perfectly tho

[red umbra]

Anemo version of albedo

[muted arrow]

we have, several

[storm tulip]

It is very hard because in my mind they would just fit in other comps better

[atomic sundial]

niche plunge attack buffer only

[hexed ridge]

Anemo shred & anemo crit damage would be ideal

I don‘t think it would push Kazuha towards a crit build

[red umbra]

So c4 Jean

[storm tulip]

I dont know he is already so broken with bennet, you add crit to that and that is kinda busted too

The biggest thing is that kazuha actively ccs enemies and xiao actively splits them up

[atomic sundial]

wouldn't an anemo crit buffer just make EM/Crit build Kazuhas better

[storm tulip]

If it is only on anemo dmg adc still better

[hexed ridge]

It would certainly make crit Kazuha better but I doubt it would overtake EM builds. EM has such good scaling in aoe situations and it‘s partly the high EM reactions that Kazuha procs that make him this good

[atomic sundial]

god I remember my friends telling me in the early days that EM Kazuha was gonna suck

[hexed ridge]

Crit Kazuha also requires higher investment on everything, I think it‘d at most be a sidegrade for people

[red umbra]

Highest I have gotten is 55k on kazuha ult without mona

[atomic sundial]

idk

a Xiao support would have to have something to pull in enemies on the ground maybe

[red umbra]

Sucrose ult

[atomic sundial]

yea but without pulses

more like Kazoo vortex

[storm tulip]

Yeah that is around 170k on Q total and tap E should be dealing over 100k + swirls with that setup

[red umbra]

Mistsplitter go brr

If I had C1 I could pretty much solo everything with kazuha and Bennet

[hexed ridge]

Imagine C6 Kazuha with an anemo Gorou

[storm tulip]

Like xiao buffed on 15 seconds gets around as much on single target and obviously less on AoE cause swirls

[storm tulip]

C6 kazuha you can just do 30-40k swings with c6 bennet, no need for anemo gorou

[red umbra]

You don't need c6 kaz if u have c6 Bennett

[storm tulip]

C1 is busted the pure burst you get from it, the extra energy due to extra E, etc.

[storm tulip]

I mean you dont, but dmg is just way higher

But yeah kazuha with any infusion and adc (since you are levelling up his normals anyways) is very good, especially since he is shredding and buffing his infusion dmg

[lament hazel]

Itto vs noel c6?

[storm tulip]

Itto

[lament hazel]

Who will lose

[red umbra]

Not to mention c2 is a 200em boost

[lament hazel]

Damn

[red umbra]

Add diona c6 and u have kazuha with 400em+ in a damage window

[storm tulip]

515+

[red umbra]

Itto is stronger and faster

[storm tulip]

Cause ascension

[lament hazel]

Right

[red umbra]

I run about 300em while using crit kazuha so 715 em

The biggest selling point of itto for me is that his NA combos doesn't reset after dash

And crit ascension

[storm tulip]

Biggest selling point of itto is how cute ushi is

[pearl bone]

PNG abs and bicep look abit better

[dapper bramble]

does 'hit opponent' in description count hitting shield as well?

[azure dagger]

wow mihoyo actually edited the model

those abs are solid lmao

[storm tulip]

yes hit = any hit

dmg= enemy loses health aka doesnt work on shields

[real phoenix]

it’s just the textures

[azure dagger]

yea that's what i meant

should have clarified, im just impressed they actually did try to make him more buff cuz they totally coulda gotten away without it

[twin abyss]

Thoughts on itto's abs buff?

[azure dagger]

they gave him oblique abs so he's literally just more buff now

the shading also looks a lot nicer

[real phoenix]

but,,, you can’t see his obliques

jk, kinda, closer look that line looks a little too low to be his serratus anterior

[azure dagger]

yea he doesn't have the lower obliques just those under his chest

i just want his arms to be slightly wider and that's basically it at this point

[sharp sinew]

Arms got buffed too

They added a little bit of shading

[red umbra]

@reef stump hey i remember you posting xiao calc, do you know how pjws works like for xiao the first atk stack of 3.2% applies on his first e or on the 2nd e?

[warm socket]

Is Itto designed for success ?

or is there any friction just like in Kokomi design ?

[ornate salmon]

hes designed for variety

like any other mdps

[reef stump]

I haven't calced with PJWS so far, since I usually use R5 4* if there is an accordingly good one. I'm not quite sure but I'd assume the hit that triggers PJWS Stacks doesn't get the benefit. Either way the difference would be tiny in effect.

[warm socket]

so it's not a bait

that's important for me to know, thanks

[ornate salmon]

they pretty much killed his cons with the buffs

[red umbra]

Thanks, guess I’m off to xiao mains to find out.

[ornate salmon]

its still good though

[azure dagger]

only c4 really

c2 is technically a nerf but i doubt it'll make a difference if you run 3 geo anyway and it's just rebalancing of the changes to his Q

[storm tulip]

and at c6, c4 is only a nerf to his personal dps on the first rotation, after 1st rotation it is the exact same output

and is a team dps increase

you could start a c4 rotation by for example using gorou E, swapping to itto, casting Q, casting ushi, spending 4-6 seconds hammering on field and then swapping and doing your support rotation to then do your first big q rotation with all of your team buffs

albedo also wants to stack up his husk of opulent dreams set to then recast E since it snapshots and you would then be snapshotting gorou and itto buffs as well as the 4pc fully stacked effect

[reef stump]

Thats assuming Itto's DEF conversion snapshots like Noelle?

[storm tulip]

yes, but it would be very silly for it not to work the same

although, it being a 20% defense buff might not convert into his Q at all

same with gorou a1

we need to wait and see for that

because it is percentual and not flat

[reef stump]

Based on precedent it would work that way, was pondering about it with reagrds to HooD though. Rotations would be incredibly tight to maintain Stacks

[storm tulip]

you only lose 1 stack per 6 seconds of not gaining stacks

you dont lose all of them

[reef stump]

Oh, right

Yeah then there is little point to make an exception for Itto

[muted arrow]

20% def and 20% atk is as good as 25% crit on itto?

I'm doubtful

[storm tulip]

it is as good as 15%

when c6 gorou is in the party

dont forget that c6 did get buffed too

[muted arrow]

wasn't c4 25%

[storm tulip]

c4/c5 thresholds did get slightly nerfed

[muted arrow]

or did you mean consts as a whole

[storm tulip]

but c6 remains the same

I was talking about c6 itto

[storm tulip]

here

[muted arrow]

oh I see I misread

[storm tulip]

but c4 is overall still a team dps increase

in my eyes, c4 opens up a little bit of a quickswap use to him, and is better in situations where you need to swap off of itto to break a shield

imho it is a quality of life increase to keep him in check compared to other 5 stars

and c6 r5 output can be quite insane, easily 2.5-2.7 million fully team buffed during his Q

[muted arrow]

issue is if you're whaled enough to get c6 you're likely not seeing a second rotation most of the time

or at least not a complete one

same issue as raiden c4 really

[storm tulip]

yeah

[low valve]

fischl or emc fourth slot on itto team?

with itto, zhong, gorou

[spiral isle]

geo mc

where can I find the numbers for itto's damage?

[azure dagger]

my math calcs for c0 R1 RS have him doing ballpark of 450-500k personal output during his burst, no gorou buffs except geo resonance, and that's in line with other TC maths i've seen for him

something like this, comparing c6 vs c0 gorou vs c5 bennett and SS

dont bother too much with the right most column that's just there to calc the actual dmg of the crit hit

my rotation rn is E-> NA3CA4CAF -> NA4CA4CAF -> E during burst

tldr; he's strong - just depends now on energy and abyss enemies tbh

[hexed ridge]

What substats did you assume for the estimated 450-500k if I may ask?

[azure dagger]

sorry it's this one instead

no wait i sent the wrong one again LMAO

hold on

this is like slightly above average investment itto

4pc HOOD

[hexed ridge]

Yeah, that looks around right in terms of substats I think

[azure dagger]

these are roughly his stats at c0 r1 RS, by himself (no gorou)

[low valve]

55:130?

im guessing this prioritises stats going into DEF aswell?

[azure dagger]

74.7:219.1

because of his crit ascension passive and RS

[low valve]

jesus

[azure dagger]

with gorou it's 74.7:259.1

i gave him def sands + ~20% DEF rolls total in substats

along with 41.6 flat DEF as an arbitrary flat def you'll get somewhere in your artifacts

[hexed ridge]

450k without Gorou sounds good and it‘s very much in line with the 600-700k damage that other theorycrafters assumed with C6 Gorou

[azure dagger]

for my calcs with this itto

c6 gorou + his 25% def buff

increases itto dmg output to 704k

[low valve]

20% shouldnt be too hard to get in subs

[azure dagger]

yes, your itto with proper investment should hit more than mine

i just scaled his artifacts for weaker investment to try and get a better idea for average players

[low valve]

jesus

[low valve]

if this is weak investment

[hexed ridge]

It‘s also a fairly decent number overall I think as Itto has access to Albedo who‘s quite the capable sub DPS himself. He‘s quite similar to Hu Tao I think who gets to enjoy XQs damage

[azure dagger]

itto dmg at c0 w/ gorou c6 is gonna be a powercreep over xiao assuming sucrose c6 as his partner

but if he gets a dedicated BiS artifact set and a new anemo dmg support buffer..

[azure dagger]

i should clarify this itto is def not weak investment itto

i gave him lvl. 90 T10 everything except ushi

T9 ushi

[low valve]

artifacts wise i mean

[azure dagger]

oh

[low valve]

cus you can prolly 10/10/10 on first day if you prefarm

[red umbra]

Any thoughts on his c6?

[azure dagger]

for sure

the crit value of each artifact for my itto *is around 36 CV

so you can def hit much higher numbers w/ more investment

[low valve]

im planning to anyway and i wanna try run an ushi one shot comp for fun cus ive seen ushi's scaling is pretty nice

[azure dagger]

it is

although for ushi

R5 SS does more dmg than R1 RS

if you want to do nuke build

[low valve]

i figured as much

the crit dmg and def should help a tiny bit though

from rs

but yeah ss is just

good

[azure dagger]

rn, the c0 r1 itto i just showed will do 58K crit on ushi

[azure dagger]

it does but ushi doesn't gain benefits from its passive which is what mostly let it surpass SS in the last rounds of buffs since itto is so reliant on NA/CA

[low valve]

yeah

[azure dagger]

i find it hilarious

little moo cow > divine meteors

[low valve]

wait no way

doesnt zhongs meteor have higher scaling?

[azure dagger]

it does but itto gets way higher ATK during burst and dmg bonuses

[low valve]

wait yeah i wasnt thinking about this holy shit

i dont wanna believe this

[red umbra]

Zhongs aoe tho

Big aoe

[low valve]

also petrify

utility

[azure dagger]

it also depends if you wanna scale zhongli to the same investment as itto

most ppl usually just run hp builds tho i think

i took my r1 homa off hutao to try it on zhongli, and it increased my meteor damage in game from like 60k to 80k, but then you're running homa on zhongli instead of any other user that benefits more from it haha

[low valve]

yeah generally not gonna happen unless you dont own hu tao

but yeah massive zhong damage increase

just so happens that hes already got so much hp

[azure dagger]

i kinda want a second r1 homa just because him and hutao are my mains but ik it's not worth

[low valve]

i got tao and originally i was planning to go for it aswell but they changed RS to 88 crit dmg

and i already have r5 dragonsbane so

[azure dagger]

c6 gorou t12 E increases c0 R1 RS itto ushi dmg from 56k to 82.5k

w/ bennett and zhongli resistance and if you use SS you can def hit 100K+ on ushi but im too lazy to math it exactly

[low valve]

damn

is bennett better for ushi or mona?

[azure dagger]

ooooh i hadn't considered mona

bennett's atk is probs diminishing returns so she might be better if all you're doing is E nuke?

im not too familiar w/ mona so im not sure

[low valve]

it'll be fun to test this once he comes out for an ushi damage per screenshot meme build

[azure dagger]

yea it'll be hilarious

[low valve]

my mona is low talent lvl tho sadge

[azure dagger]

mona unironically is my most wanted 5 star rn besides itto

11 months of playing

c3 diluc

0 mona

[low valve]

i thought i had it bad with c2

my condolences

[spiral isle]

does anyone have that picture comparing itto's and noelle's damage?

[tribal osprey]

there isnt such a picture

not unless i need to have a vey enthusiastic talk with raikh

[hexed ridge]

I have the picture but I don‘t want to post it I don‘t think It‘s so misleading and it‘s gonna spread like wildfire

[red umbra]

Itto team but replace xingqiu with gorou
Gmc with fav sword

[storm tulip]

I think this rotation is fine but it is also just 1st rotation worthy and I think I would always start a floor by casting ushi 1st things first, doing my support rotation and then going to itto to use Q with probably E back up so you would start with a bare minimum of 2 stacks, up to 3 when you cast ushi at beginning of Q

My reasoning is that the taunt gives you some soft grouping while you set up so your Q becomes better, albedo wants to stack up opulent dreams which means 2 casts of his E and we all know about zhongli casting times

Something like

Ushi->gorou E->albedo E+auto>zhongli E+Q->albedo E->gorou Q (and E since it should be back up) ->itto stuff

And the very thing you do at the end of itto Q is ushi so again you would have bare minimum 2 stacks for the beginning of next rotation

Obviously this is mono geo with zhongli but even some other comps would probably want to cast ushi first

[hexed ridge]

I want to look into C2 Itto a bit today. C2 went from being viewed as broken good to being severely overhyped real quick. If you can cut your rotation time down to 15-16s, it could end up being a sizeable DPS upgrade

It‘s really only Gorou Q you only get to cast every 2nd ult rotation

[storm tulip]

Yeah but with the new c6 gorou improvments too it got a lot better and honestly c2 has been always broken

Just getting 18 energy back is already amazing

[hexed ridge]

Yeah, I think it‘s super strong both in QoL and DPS

Losing Gorou Q is essentially just losing 25% defense for one rotation, the Q damage itself is negligible

Meanwhile you can cut 1/4 of your rotation time

[storm tulip]

And to be fair original rotation is always a 20 second one bare minimum

I've always seen c2 as a ~20% dps increase if it can shave 3-4 seconds from your rotation even losing 25% defense from gorou Q once every 2 rotations

[hexed ridge]

It‘s also not like Itto‘s downtime can be filled with anything meaningful because both Albedo and Gorou take close to no field time due to the nature of their spells. You‘re kind of stuck coping with Albedo Q and your 4th slot character It‘s not like Hu Tao where your downtime gets used efficiently by XQ dealing solid E damage and setting up his own ult

[hexed ridge]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and it‘s not even taking the ER subs into account that you can skip I suppose?

[storm tulip]

No it is not

But also you cant really skip them either

If you are taking advantage of c2 cooldown reduction the energy you gain is to make up for the cooldown reduction pretty much

[hexed ridge]

That‘s true, a shorter rotation time naturally comes with higher ER requirements

[storm tulip]

It is still a reduction in energy/second needed but not a huge one

[hexed ridge]

C2 Itto might really be the sweet spot, especially because the average pulls to get C6 Gorou are quite similar

Too bad his weapon has also become pretty strong now

[storm tulip]

Yeah, as a geo main I gotta take the gorou but the weapon is tempting too, at least I have r4 serpent spine this patch and will have r5 on the next one, I just hate waiting for serpent stacks, I die a lil bit inside every time

[hexed ridge]

Same, I don‘t like SS all that much either. Waiting for stacks is annoying, maintaining them can be difficult on carries, especially when they don‘t seem to want to use ZL. It‘s also way too good on many other characters, mainly Beidou

Redhorn is quite tempting indeed

[muted arrow]

just get another spine

luckily itto can use zl

[low valve]

getting both. my wallet will not close until that happens

[mighty ridge]

Is itto single target? My abyss needs a single target team

[muted arrow]

he seems to have good ST damage with solid AoE reach too

[storm tulip]

He has around the same single target dps as vape tao (very slightly less) with r5 whiteblind vs r5 dbane or r5spine/r1 redhorn vs r1 homa

A hu tao comp will outdamage single target wise cause of xingqiu but 1 to 1 itto and hu tao provide around the same output there

[hasty quail]

Gorou got buffed?

[storm tulip]

QoL buffed in c6

[hasty quail]

What'd they change

[storm tulip]

When all the itto cons were tweaked

[unique rover]

What's the buff

[storm tulip]

C6 lasts for 12 seconds after cast of E or Q

[hasty quail]

Oh that's really good

So about 22 seconds total?

Maybe 25 depending on crystalization extension ofc

[storm tulip]

No, just QoL

Basically you dont need extension from Q

For c6

Google translate from chinese but enough to get the gist of it

Basically after casting E or Q c6 lasts for 12 seconds regardless of where you are on the battlefield or if buff is still up or not

[tidal violet]

hi is redhorn a must have for itto or is he better of with serpent spine or other 5* claymore

[storm tulip]

Redhorn r1 is very slightly better than serpent spine r5

With those 2 being his best weapons by quite a bit

[tidal violet]

i currently have r2 ss im planning to r5 it due to beidou

how about his cons is it better than getting the redhorn?

or still redhorn?

[storm tulip]

I think constellations are better

[tidal violet]

oooo

[storm tulip]

Because that also means gorou constellations

[tidal violet]

ooh true

[storm tulip]

You would be double dipping there

[tidal violet]

hmm there's still a lot of days to think anyways but im pretty sure i will do my first whaling since i've played the game for itto

[red umbra]

Thoughts on c6? Powerful as eula? Or Its alright?

[storm tulip]

Strong

[tidal violet]

wait how many pulls for a c6 itto per se, i have like 70 pity atm and guaranteed

[storm tulip]

Eula/ayaka still have the one shot whatever is in front of you by pressing q and swapping

[red umbra]

Around 720+ i think avg

[storm tulip]

But c6 fully buffed output (zhong/c5 bennet/c6 gorou) with r5 redhorn is around 2.5million during Q

[red umbra]

Nice, guess I’ll go c6 itto then with r5 ss

[tidal violet]

720 pulls wtf?

[storm tulip]

650 on average luck less for you cause you basically only need c5 due to your current pulls so around 560 on average + 20 max from your current pity

This is still correct except for weapon banner calcs cause of changes

But is way back from original zhong banner

[atomic sundial]

what about Albedo in 2.3 taken into account?

[storm tulip]

Yes but he is also on the hu tao comp

Albedo+xingqiu beat gorou buffed albedo in itto comp

But albedo gorou buffed is better than your average subdps xingqiu on hu tao

[hasty quail]

good cause I plan to just run the geo boyband team lol

[storm tulip]

Yeah I imagine that is why they buffed it

You still lose 15% geo dmg bonus once the 9/10 seconds are up but everything else is either snapshotted or lasts longer

Wait, no, did the E get updated or did I not notice it before

Last sentence before the hold

So 15% geo damage bonus lasts up to 11/12 seconds, without any Q extension

[hasty quail]

ohhhhh 👀 nice

I guess they're trying to make him a lil more flexible

[mighty ridge]

Sorry if I sound Pepega but does this mean a (C6 gorou/albedo/itto/flex) team is competitive in single target as a (C6 Xingqiu/Hu Tao/ flex/flex) team with itto using R5 ss/ R1 redhorn and Hu Tao using R1 homa?

[storm tulip]

yes

now hu tao has no energy requirements

while itto does

and this is a c6 new 4 star

but it is still pretty exciting

[mighty ridge]

True. Geo can’t break elemental shields easily too

[storm tulip]

yeah that is also another thing

[reef stump]

What kind of Hu Tao are we talking about?

[storm tulip]

wdym

[mighty ridge]

Is the C6 gorou a must to make the team competitive?

[storm tulip]

to compete with hu tao single target yes, to make the team very good no

itto has way easier AoE potential

[reef stump]

Combo wise and which Supports

[mighty ridge]

Claymore swings

[storm tulip]

8 n1Cj hu tao/xingqiu/albedo/zhongli, thoma+kaz/sucrose do bring her above itto, but honestly the rotations with that comp to get VV proc on pyro are super awkward

while albedo/zhongli are just easy and consistent, especially now that albedo subdps will be higher I just dont really see vv with hu tao being that amazing

[mighty ridge]

Is the flex unit in the itto team in your scenario Zhongli?

[storm tulip]

zhongli/bennet one of the 2, bennet being more itto damage, but hard to maintain geo resonance 15% dmg up with bennet albedo instead of bennet zhongli

[reef stump]

Yeah that would check out with what I have roughly aswell. Was jsut asking since Hu Tao has such a wide range depending on player skill or whether you include C1 or not

[storm tulip]

yeah, but also if we include c1 I would need to compare to c1 itto which is hard to just theorycraft without gameplay experience

[mighty ridge]

What is the prelim rotation for a C0 itto?

[reef stump]

Also true, but even with some pretty generous estimations before the NA Buffs I had C1 at 10-15% more, so it would be down significantly with the NA Buffs and thus definitely favorable for HT.

[storm tulip]

in total 2 ushis 2 CA4CAF chains 1 NA4 1 NA2+CA+CAF for me

this is around 10-11 seconds of animations, and we have seen that hit lag can extend the duration of the Q to 12-13 seconds

so has some leeway for dashing and repositioning

[reef stump]

Is the rotation Q E SCA5 N4 SCA5 N2SCA2 E ?

[storm tulip]

ye

you would start initial team rotation with an ushi cast, while setting up, and you end the rotation with ushi cast

so you always have minimum 3 stacks going into initial charged

[reef stump]

10s setup time seems too long

thats a 25s rotation

[storm tulip]

you need to recast albedo E

because of opulent dreams and it snapshotting

and since I was thinking zhong, that is zhong casting times

so it actually fits for the first rotation

after that since albedo is set up you are good to go

[reef stump]

Albedo Q and ZL Q are likely not worth the cast time unless the situation is really favorable for them

[storm tulip]

it is only the 1st rotation

I didnt count albedo Q and I personally have homa

I'm gonna cast my 150k+ meatball for sure

and not casting zhong Q is always an argument I completely despise

[reef stump]

Can't comment on the number since I don't know the circumstances for the rest of the Team

[storm tulip]

especially on a team where zhong can even potentially not run hp sands at all

and run full adc build

also not like you can fill the itto Q downtime of 5-7 seconds doing anything else that is too productive, you cast gorou E funnel into itto and then are waiting on gorou Q anyways

[muted arrow]

for homa zl there is no difference between hp sands and atk right?

[storm tulip]

r1 homa atk is better, below half hp hp and atk are the same

well, depends on talent levels actually

but for the Q this scenario is always right at lvl8+

[reef stump]

May I ask what frames you used for your combo calculation?

[storm tulip]

dont know from the top of my head and not currently at home, I can post them later though

[muted arrow]

on non zl team with spine you almost need to use albedo Q tho

[reef stump]

Would be great. Bc with the frames I have been using that combo would be impossible even if I assume no Dash cancels and no pause between NA and SCA combos

[muted arrow]

zl q might be worth the cast in 2-3 oppponents situations I'd say, especially if you manage to buff it with gorou and you have homa

[reef stump]

If an ADC Homa ZL Q gets target advantage its for sure sure worth casting, yeah. Thats what I meant with favorable

[storm tulip]

tbh though NA3+4 is faster than going into another charged stance combo and would just let you have guaranteed fullstacks for follow up Q

even with just 1 opponent guys

in the team I'm descriping

it is literally the best ability you can press

or you hammer with itto building superlative stacks

there is downtime to be filled

and not much to fill it

[reef stump]

If its time to be filled sure, otherwise not 100% sure. At my current ballpark assumptions an ability has to do 50k per second of animation time to be worth extending the rotation for

SO ZL Q would have to do 100k+ unless he is C2 for my investment assumptions

[storm tulip]

you only extend the first rotation

literally the first one only

[reef stump]

Haven't calced the ZL Q for those yet though

[storm tulip]

and that is because of albedo stacks

more so than zhong pressing Q

[muted arrow]

now that c6 got extended for gorou the drop off from final E out of Q is larger, so prob having a safer rotation that allows you get that E in burst consistently will be ideal

especially since itto's stacks are quite volatile

[reef stump]

Gorou E -> Albedo E -> ZL E -> Gorou Q -> Itto Q is already 21s or so. So past the first rota ZL Q should be a pure rotation extension

[muted arrow]

I mean at that point use zl Q after his E

[reef stump]

And I'm not sure that extending to snapshot Albedo first rot is worth it either

[muted arrow]

so it gets buffed by gorou E

[storm tulip]

you are telling me gorou E albedo E zhongli E takes 6 seconds to execute?

that seems way higher than it should be

[reef stump]

• Gorou Q

[muted arrow]

I want to say it's tactically ideal too because petrify allows you to set up your rotation in a way enemies are well positioned once itto uses Q

[reef stump]

Even if its less

18s rotations are within the realm of possibilities due to Itto CD

[storm tulip]

you are better off waiting 2 seconds

for gorou Q

[reef stump]

Oh, yeah nvm

Gorou Q + Itto E, so its 20s

[storm tulip]

yeah

[reef stump]

If the Support rot is less than 5s, yeha sure just throw ZL Q for free damage

But I doubt its that short

[storm tulip]

like gorou Q, itto Q and itto with hit lag is what 15-16 second duration tops

so 21 seconds is 5-6 seconds just for albedo gorou E and then zhong hold E

yeha there is extra time in here for sure

[reef stump]

switch cd is roughly 1s, so its 4s minimum

And ZL Hold E is longer than 1s

so it should be 5 minimum

[storm tulip]

yeah zhong hold E is 1.7 more or less

[reef stump]

Havent looked how long Gorou Q animation is

[storm tulip]

still only 3.7 seconds from my calc

itto into gorou has no cooldown, 1 sec gorou-albedo, 1 sec albedo-gorou, 1.7 zhongli -> gorou again

which is where I started counting, gorou Q

[reef stump]

Gorou -> Albedo - 1s
Albedo ZL -> 1s
ZL - 1.7s -> Gorou
Gorou Q (?) -> Itto 1s+

Thats 4.7s if Gorou Q is below 1s

[storm tulip]

yeah but I started assuming gorou Q is 1.5 seconds with ittou Q which i know is around 1.5 and then 12-13 seconds of field time for itto

that was my 15-16

obviously 3.7 has you at 20 exactly pretty much

[reef stump]

Gorou is part of the Support rotation so I'd put him there

Itto is 1.5s + 11s + 1-2s which is 12.5 -14.5s depending on extension

If Gorou Q is 1.5s

Thats 5.2s, say 5.5s bc we're not machines

5,5s + 14.5s = 20s

Give or take a second

So within the realm of reality you don't get the ZL Q cast as a free down time filler, so it has to be worth its damage within the realm of its cast time

which I actually haven't calced yet for my investment assumptions so I can't say for sure what would be my verdict on that

[storm tulip]

unless the enemies are immune to petrify it is already worth casting even versus just one purely from a cc standpoint and if you can hit at a bare minimum 2 enemies it is always worth casting pretty much

[reef stump]

With target advantage via Q radius or CC allowing for more consistent multi target hits its surely worth it, yeah

[muted arrow]

yeah excluding bosses can't think of many situations where it's not worth it

[real phoenix]

Video of gorou showcase @60fps shows his ult to be 111 frames from casting to when his weapon starts to appear, in the video showing Gorou and Itto Aoe @30fps, gorou switches to itto from ult cast in 52 frames

[reef stump]

So closer to 2s then

which would make the Support rotation 6s

roughly

[spiral isle]

how does itto's team compare to xiao's team right now

[azure dagger]

what's xiao's best comp again

i dont have / play him

[reef stump]

Afaik either Xiao/Sucrose/Albedo/ZL or Xiao/Sucrose/Bennett/ZL

C4 Jean ofc exists and is quite a significant dmg gain but also a very specific luxury

[azure dagger]

then itto's team dps will guarantee be greater than xiao and hutao's teams lol

assuming dugtrio + fischl and that crystallize shards are enough to stay alive in abyss

[reef stump]

Xiao w/o an AoE mod helping him out for sure, Hu Tao not necessarily

Xiao w/o collision or AoE mods looks pretty bad all in all

[azure dagger]

yea i was basing it on 2 geo hutao teams

but she'll be stronger w/ thoma / vv probs

[reef stump]

Hu Tao also scales madly with dolphin investment. C1 is huge if you can use it, Homa is huge, getting C2 Kaz, FS, Elegy Amber

You can scale Hu Tao's dmg to absolutely stupid levels depending on what level you're looking at

But your general C0 DB Tao is still fairly tame, while ofc being still strong

[hasty quail]

I use Xiao + Kazuha (bf duo) + Zhongli + Albedo

...which is gonna be weird since Itto is gonna be getting the geo bros soon

[reef stump]

Kazuha is a terrible battery for Xiao and doesn't get to use any of his own potential in that comp either

[hasty quail]

I have c1 xiao so he's good enough to work

in abyss I put kazuha with childe/diluc/raiden

[reef stump]

Ah, overworld, thats whatever anyway

[hasty quail]

yepyep it melts p much everythin cept the specters and wolves lol

c1 xiao is so nice

[azure dagger]

yo i kinda just learned about this elegy amber tech for hutao

im intrigued

im not against wishing for a 2nd homa for zhongli and if i get the bow then maybe time to build amber LOL

[reef stump]

Currently still torn if I wanna invest more in Tao or go for Itto and build a Geo Team

Itto has some serious potential, but its hard to tell how well he translates from the sheet into actual gameplay

[azure dagger]

agreed

im really curious about his c1 rn

i wonder how much extra CA he can squeeze out of it

[reef stump]

His C1 seems a lot of flavor over damage

Its gonna be a lot of fun to use

But its not gonna be a huge dmg increase

[azure dagger]

yeaa that's probably likely

the dopamine of getting to just spam the CA instantly vs delaying it a few seconds

f

i think im committed at this point to itto

albedo was my first character

so gotta bring the geo team to life

[reef stump]

Ofc gives him a bit more frontloaded dmg and might make rotations easier, which has variable impact dependent on clear times and player skill

But under ideal circumstances you're probably well off if C1 is as much as 10% more damage

Its basically like Raiden C1 performance wise I'd say

[azure dagger]

yea that's probs the most apt comparison

i think one thing really good about itto is how easy / low investment his teams can be and still perform comfortably

gorou doesn't even need talent levels or a weapon to do what he needs for itto / albedo

albedo was always f2p friendly

[reef stump]

Albedo is starting to do some serious damage though and he also gets a new Set

So you're better off seriously ivnesting in his damage now

and while his new weapon is free and very powerful for him

it also doesn't carry your Crit Stats anymore like HoD/JC did so far

So he is getting more expensive to build properly

[azure dagger]

that's true

new albedo can hit in the 32-35k range w/ c6 gorou

that's higher than a lot of ppl's zhongli burst

[reef stump]

If your ZL Q is that low you're either building a pure Shield Bot or are doing smth wrong

[azure dagger]

it's pure shield bot zhongli

i think that's his most popular build right

[reef stump]

Likely

Most what I run is HP Sands personally. I'm not using ZL much in general but when I do I only run as much defense as I truly need and the rest goes into dmg potential

[azure dagger]

same i do hp / geo / crit for zhongli

i dont use hutao in overworld and so i give zhongli homa when i run around inazuma

80k burst oneshotting treasure hoarders is satisfying

[reef stump]

Having ZL do decent dmg is quite nice. Haven't invested in him that well given that I don't run him in my staple comps much. Another reason I was considering a Geo Team. He might still not be optimal in an Itto Team, but he is a lot more worthwhile comparatively if you don't need elemental checks.

[azure dagger]

agreed, i've already decided im running 4 geo lol

zhongli investment is satisfying cuz overworld oneshot potential but it's so not worth lolol

my teams would do more dmg probs if i just slapped on some shitty 4pc ToM instead of p good 2pc glad and 2pc AP pieces lmao

my dream someday is for a proper microwave comp

throw down constructs and just keep swapping through 4 characters w/ 12 second 40 cost bursts

[reef stump]

Would be great if they did more with constructs

[hasty quail]

first they gotta fix the feature that causes them to be destroyed in terrain like the oceanid one

[reef stump]

wouldn't be my cup of tea since I'm not a fan of long winded setups and would likely take issue with the lack of being able to reposition properly, but at the very least its its own distinct playstyle giving more options to players in general

[low valve]

imo constructs are fun

but yeah they're more fun than efficient

[azure dagger]

yea purely for dopamine fun

i just wish geo had some form of gathering

[rigid bay]

Efficiency? Why should I do that when I can stare at geo dad's buttcheeks for the whole day and get the same satisfaction as though I'm 9-starring abyss 12?

This life of main has chosen me, and I embrace the life of full geo team, despite what most says to not otherwise

[azure dagger]

haha that's the energy i need

mihoyo pls increase construct limit to 5 and release another subdps like albedo with 12 sec burst so i can just stand on a pillar and rain down bursts 😂

[hasty quail]

I bet they'll eventually release achara who's passive is a +1 to the construction limit

[mighty ridge]

If you have zhongli pillar and albedo flower up, what is the average geo particle generation?

[slow vapor]

Any new math on itto?

[storm tulip]

Itto is your soft grouping now with ushi

But for construct play a lot of shit needs to be fixed

From construct limit being ridiculously low to accomodate c1 zhongli, to their very low HP and bosses oneshotting them just by walking near them, to issues in overworld with terrain

Like I dont mind a "long" setup for constructs cause I have fun with them, but when all your constructs that take you basically 16+ seconds to set up (if not c2 zhong) get destroyed in a single AoE attack (kenkis, geo shockwave aura, new ruin mobs have a lot of strong AoE dmg, etc.) It feels very very bad

[storm tulip]

Close to 0.6 particles per second

Zhongli is 50% chance to generate a particle each pillar hit, albedo is 66% every blossom proc (never initial cast on albedo, zhongli can)

[mighty ridge]

What is fischl’s energy gen for comparison?

[storm tulip]

On average 6 particles per oz(or Q obviously) cast, 7 if she is c6

So 0.6 per second for fischl

Which would be equivalent to 0.2 per second geo particles for geo chars

[mighty ridge]

Thanks

[muted arrow]

so happy mihoyo put a limit to the broken mechanic that is constructs amount

[ocean bison]

The ressonance from zhongli pillar and geo constructs generates particles?

[storm tulip]

yes, but it is tied to each pillar

each pillar pulses every 2 seconds and has a 50% chance to generate a particle

also at a minimum zhongli pillar will generate 6 particles throughout its duration if you get all hits

it will never be less than 6

which on average means it is slightly more than 50%, but since you are bound to not hit the whole duration 50% is an educated number to fall back on

and extra constructs basically extend the pillar range, it is not an extra hit when it comes to energy generation

[pale flax]

What is ushi?

[mighty furnace]

🐂

[storm tulip]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/896884682988335105/903165098313523220/Cow.gif

[pale flax]

Ohh tyty lol

[ocean bison]

any calcs between def cup and geo cup for itto?

[reef stump]

Itto doesn't have super inflated Dmg% and doesn't gain all his dmg via his own DEF either, + Gorou exists, so DEF% Goblet doesn't hold a candle to a Geo Dmg% Goblet

[cursive kestrel]

Holy shit im vibing back

This stupid cow keeps growing on me

[storm tulip]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/896884682988335105/903653369300807700/902998334741041212.gif

[tidal violet]

Hi is Itto highly dependent on a 4-Geo team comp?

Cuz the only Geo characters I have besides the upcoming Gorou and Itto would be Noelle and uhh Geo MC 🥲

[onyx junco]

4 geo is not needed, 3 geo is more than enough. geo mc and ningguang are good bateries and nice replacements for albedo afaik

[ocean bison]

will itto reach like eula level of dmg?

[onyx junco]

hope he is higher

[frigid hound]

When ushi with headphone

[ionic cape]

the gif ive been waiting

[tidal violet]

what are the current pre-theorycrafted team comps for itto?

[mighty ridge]

Didn’t someone calc it to be around vape Tao?

[azure dagger]

itto's single target w/ c6 gorou > hutao's single target dmg w/ xq

if not c6 gorou it'll be lower than hutao

[onyx junco]

i thought it was with c0 gorou as well

[spiral isle]

c1 hutao vape? or c0 hutao

I think saw somewhere that hu tao outperformed itto by 15% unsure whether or not it was with c6 gorou

[azure dagger]

c0 hutao

[azure dagger]

c0 gorou itto can keep up with hutao's ST dmg w/ just c0 gorou

but def not if you have c1 hutao and can squeeze like 12 N1C

typically tho i would say hutao's single target is still higher since pyro has higher ceilings and with thoma / VV shred, supports will buff hutao more next patch, whereas the 3rd and 4th supports wont add as much for itto given the current roster

[spiral isle]

if that’s true that’s actually insane

why are so many bashing his damage

[modern iron]

is itto's aoe at least decent?

[hasty quail]

if that's the case then i'm v satisfied with his damage since that's what I was hoping for with his arti set +gorou

[spiral isle]

much better than hu tao’s

not as good as xiao’s

[slow vapor]

Is there any new math on itto

[lethal shell]

would redhorn be suitable for other dps claymores

[hexed ridge]

I think all the math has been done already. The only way we could get better numbers is if they released a high quality video that includes hitlag. This would result in more precise frame counts and possibly some small changes in DPS. Besides that, however, there‘s not really much to improve on until his official release when rotations can be tested out

[slow vapor]

Can you send it? I’m curious abt his dmg tbh

[hexed ridge]

Raikh from this server was kind enough to create a spreadsheet, you can view it here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_Aoh92fw_5k5g9Zm-yx72wdGIz6BXtyYwLdkdi66ukQ/edit#gid=244984103

He has C0R1 Itto with high investment at around 775k damage per rotation

[slow vapor]

Oh damn ty

[slow vapor]

R1 red horn correct?

[hexed ridge]

Yes, but there's also calculations for other weapons you can switch to at the bottom to compare them

[slow vapor]

Ight tyvm

[azure dagger]

here are also some calcs by me

note that my itto i believe is lower investment than raikh's

but even at c0 R1 RS, just having geo resonance means itto can hit within the 430-480k ballpark during burst

add in gorou c6, and his potential can leap into 700k+

my current impression is rn he's like in between xiao + hutao, better aoe than hutao, worse ST than her; better ST than xiao, worse aoe than him

[tepid stream]

That's a good design balance

[tidal violet]

Hi, I decided to just get Albedo instead of pulling for RS and so I'm wondering are there any other contenders for the flex spot aside from Fischl?

[reef stump]

Dugtrio Flexslot is a bit of a whatever thing. The Trio doesn't support any SubDPS well. Most considered contenders so have far have been Fischl, Rosaria, ZL, Xinyan and Bennett. Bennett is likely the ceiling of the Team since Itto still gets a good chunk of damage out of him. If you don't have an elemental check I'd suggest ZL since he secures shield uptime and being the cheapest trade-off to get that

[storm tulip]

technically if itto is hitting 2 enemies he beats xiao hitting 3, which is generally what you get in abyss for AoE anyways, if itto manages to hit more than 2 xiao just cant compete

not to mention the actual team dps of itto's 3 other members is a lot higher than xiao's 3 other members

[reef stump]

Xiao w/o collision lives and breathes based on a superior AoE mod. His actual Team DPS on a per target basis is kinda low

Even lower than I thought before I calced him

[storm tulip]

beidou not being considered even if you put her with, say, a fav greatsword is weird to me

[reef stump]

I personally think Beidou suffers too much in that Team. You only get 1 E per rot, no battery

and I have Itto SCA slashes at 29 frames with hitlag

so he doesn't evne proc Beidou every second hit

but only every third

not sure how many procs you actually get out of Beidou

can't imagine the dmg being great overall

If you can get it to run, it might very well be another option, but I don't see it being an outstanding one

[storm tulip]

this is my beidou build with a lvl 60 fav gsword, lvl 70 talent 11

this is 5.5k discharges with a petra support, geo resonance

if we assume 10 procs in a rotation it is close to 14k dps contribution over 20 seconds

[reef stump]

14k DPS across 2 targets, so you already assume an AoE mod

[storm tulip]

also, note, lvl 60 weapon when what she is missing the most in the build is atk

sure, but you wouldnt use beidou to beigin with without it

[reef stump]

Even 20k across 2 targets isn't exactly massive unless Itto and Albedo get stuck at 1

[storm tulip]

not when one of the considerations is fisch though, where her AoE mod in the comp is basically nonexistant either

[reef stump]

Also true

Beidou also has a shield, which might be handy

[storm tulip]

1 E+fav proc beidou is also better energy than c6 fischl on average

[reef stump]

Do you know how much ER Solo Beidou with 1 E per rot needs?

[storm tulip]

I havent calced it, but I assume along the 270% range

[reef stump]

Thats really rough

But if you can field that while still having other Stats it would be another option I suppose

[storm tulip]

yeah my build would reach 265% if fav sword were at 90

but tbf, gorou will also use fav bow most likely and I wasnt really thinking about that, gonna look at energy calcs here soon

[reef stump]

A Calc here had Itto down to 126% ER with Itto (4), Gorou (2) + Fav, Albedo (avg gen) and 12s Uptime Oz

Although I guess around 140% might be the save bet with energy rng on Albedo and varying enemy particles

The newer cleaner counts actually let me do better combos

Itto dmg going up and up

[storm tulip]

so this is with fav on beidou and gorou, feeding gorou E into itto

now we have this but feeding gorou E into beidou

ning=gorou, itto=geo traveler, assuming 3 particles per E cast for them since that is the common value for their cooldown

230% is emblem+ER sands+ fav gsword meeting that requirement

[reef stump]

Seems interesting, yeah

is that assuming a perfect counter for Beidou?

[storm tulip]

wait, I didnt check that hold on

it shouldnt be no

yeah, the perfect counter is the hold, so no, this is sloppy normal E for beidou

with perfect counter:

and 2nd rotation is the more likely one cause we would use beidou E->gorou E (grab crystallize shard)->beidou Q

and this is in case gorou ends up having to pick up his own particles due to petra

[reef stump]

If its not the perfect then thats good, since perfect is too situational to use as the baseline, imo. Especially when you don't have the time to sit and wait for it

[storm tulip]

yeah I agree

if I were to use hold as the base line and gorou feeding into beidou I personally would be able to use wolf's gravestone and meet the 230% energy requirement it would require with 65/120 ratio

and at that point a small rotation extension for gettting a perfect counter or 2 Es is probably actually worth the trouble

[reef stump]

Question is where you put the second E. You don't really want to spedn 7.5s w/o being on Itto

Otherwise I would've put it at the end of Itto Q

But I doubt its back up by the time you get around to Beidou again

Gorou E -> Albedo E -> Beidou EQ -> Gorou Q -> Itto Q -> Beidou E, or for Petra just starting with Beidou which is basically the same story

and going back to Beidou after Gorou Q seems nonsensical

[storm tulip]

rotation extension is at most 2 seconds for second beidou E

you already spend a bare minimum of 6 seconds without being on itto anyways

and this is also only if perfect counter is not possible

[reef stump]

Those 6s include 2s of Gorou Q though

So for Beidou specifically you're down to 4s

[storm tulip]

still, for something that is situational and is quite literally more than doubling beidou dps contribution for me, it is worth

without even accounting wolf's gravestone passive proc, since that is also unrealistic

[reef stump]

A 4s extension means the dmg gain Beidou gets needs to exceed almsot 20% total Team DPS

[storm tulip]

it is only a 4 second extension if you cannot perfect counter at all

for some reason

[reef stump]

Even if you say 50/50 and its 2s for eprfect and 4 for double E

You have an average of 3s extension which still requires a 15% Team DPS mileage

[storm tulip]

also fav bow cooldown proc is 6 seconds so it would also only be at most 1 second extension

because you would actually just get a second gorou fav proc instead of second beidou E if you miss the perfect counter

[reef stump]

which would require you to go onto Gorou, proc Fav and Switch back to Beidou, thats atleast 2s

[storm tulip]

no

off field would be enough

230% with second fav proc not funneled into beidou

[reef stump]

Then that would be an option I suppose

[lament hazel]

ayo guuys

whats a good artifact set for gorou?

im gonna run itto gorou (hopefully) and ning

[real phoenix]

the new DEF one

[lament hazel]

ah

okay

[steep marsh]

I dont think Gorou really needs a set tbh

[reef stump]

Gorou can use whatever benefits his Team the most

Petra for instance if you run a non-Geo Sub DPS

NO for general purpose

EoSF/HooD if you want to optimize Gorou's own damage

[patent galleon]

is gorou's C4 still healing?

if so id say C4+ just build him for ER/Def

spam burst and get the most out of his healing

2pc EoSF/2pc HooD

[lament hazel]

i dont even know if ill get him c4

[storm tulip]

damage is way more valuable than like 2000 extra healing you already dont need to begin with throughout the whole burst duration

dont forget that gorou's healing is not only pretty bad but his base defense is also pretty low

[patent galleon]

isnt his damage just as low? unless you have C6

[storm tulip]

trying to boost his healing is just worse than getting significantly more dmg on him

yes, it is low

but considering he is even probably running fav bow on top of all of that

losing crit seems like an even bigger mistake

also have we even seen gorou Q dealing damage?

wait nvm we just got it 20mins ago

I was kinda hoping for some better AoE on that than basically an albedo E proc

[reef stump]

Should be the entire Q area, since it glows up every 1.5s alignign with the proc

so Gorou's Q AoE is pretty damn large

[storm tulip]

nope, you can see it in new gameplay vid

the glow you are speaking of is pulling 1 geo crystal towards your character, an indication that it is happening

since that one is from whole Q area from the description

[muted arrow]

how good is gorou healing

new set might have potential on him maybe

[reef stump]

The new video only has 1 enemy and its not a proc but an automatic tick to everyone in range

[muted arrow]

the healing set , if it works off field

[reef stump]

so having the animation show on one enemy is no indication of its range

[reef stump]

shit

1k/1.5s

or so

ah wait it actually reads deals a collapse to 1 enemy in its range

missed that part

thought it was everyone in its range

nvm, just put Travelling Doctor on Gorou or so

[storm tulip]

read his Q

[reef stump]

already did

[storm tulip]

it is only on one enemy per 1.5seconds

I didnt mean that it works like albedo

I meant that it has the same AoE only

[reef stump]

Yeah I missed the 1 in the description and thought it was jsut a giant AoE pulse

rather than 1 targetted proc that dealt AoE damage

[storm tulip]

chinese does have slightly different wording

could be an enemy within instead of 1 enemy within

and be mistranslated

yeah there is no number in original chinese, which doesnt confirm that it is AoE since wording for that would probably be just enemies instead of an enemy, but you know, we can hcope

[reef stump]

I'm usually not that bad at reading, so the 1 in the english version might've been a recent change and could be cap

I missed the changes to Itto Stacks and RES also purely bc I didn't bother rereading after each Update

which was a mistake

[onyx junco]

what changes to itto's stacks?

[reef stump]

They moved the STack gen on his N2 to the baseline

does nothing in practice

but first I missed it

then thought, rip his N2 no longer grants a Stack

and then found it in the AA Talent description

and was like ?????

[spark aurora]

same

[onyx junco]

i just checked, and it says that when he is not on Q, only his 2nd and 4th grant stacks, but when he is on ult his 1st and 3rd grant 1 each

[reef stump]

Yep, outside of Q N2 grants 1 and N4 grants 2. Inside N1-N3 grnat 1 each and N4 2

and originally outside of Q only N4 generated 2 Stacks and it was N1-3 additionally in Q

[real phoenix]

i just reread this and just realized you asked for Gorou and not Itto, ignore my reply

[lament hazel]

all good

[storm tulip]

tbf, it helps set up a better first Q by fitting an n2 combo before it somewhere, and is general QoL for overworld and for meme physical build

[gusty turret]

Are those the only itto changes?

[hasty quail]

More Itto changes may come on Monday/Tuesday since that's when the beta updates

There should be two more updates before it ends

[fickle mango]

hi, would xingqiu work well with a triple geo team? I was thinking he would since he applies constant hydro aura for crystalize / shield breaking, is energy self-sufficient, has some defensive/healing capabilities as well as good off-field damage.

[reef stump]

Issue with XQ is that he doesn't proc via CAs and Itto spends msot of his time doing CAs

So XQ isn't going to do much in an Itto comp

Same for Thoma

[fickle mango]

ah, right, I forgot about that. Ty for the reply though

[storm tulip]

if he is c6, he basically works just as well as c6 fischl would dps wise tbh, even if you are at most getting 8 procs from xingqiu Q. He also provides better crystallize shield uptime and even more tankiness

his ER requirement on the comp with fav sword is of 180% which is baseline with emblem, and better team ER than what fischl is providing

fischl can run a full damage weapon and offensive build since she is only ulting every 2 rotations, but xingqiu just deals way more base dmg to ending up equalling her in the rotation even with less offensive stats, shredding for himself, having more stats in kit and having an actual useful 4pc set being some of the biggest factors

he offers enough to get a fair consideration

[tidal violet]

gorou gives 15% geo dmg bonus with his skill, assuming there are 3 present geo members in a party, right? where does that 15% come from? 15% of his atk? def?

sorry had to ask here since i noticed the gorou discussion poofed

[onyx junco]

it's just 15% more dmg for geo attacks, it has nothing to do with gorou's stats or the party members stats

[tidal violet]

okii thanks. somebody did told me it's the same 15% a goblet would give, it's flat percentage

[tepid stream]

Itto 3-4 particles Gorou 2 particles / E

[onyx junco]

i feel like we all expected this tbh

[low valve]

gorou 2 particles i did not expect

[mighty ridge]

Is itto’s particle gen gonna be like mona?

Where it is at the end of the taunt

[onyx junco]

we dont know, but i dont think it will work that way, it seems like it does damage on cast

[ember sable]

How good Itto compare to Eula in terms of damage output?

[reef stump]

My current combos for Itto don't even have 8 NAs and there isn't even 1s between all of them. For my current optimal combo Itto would trigger XQ 3 times in his entire Q window. Even if you did some NA weaving during the Support rotation you'd get to like 5 procs.

[frigid hound]

What investment and what level of budget is this comparison

[reef stump]

And once we talk C1+ or E getting hit Itto can potentially drop NA uses even further

[spark aurora]

we wait for a character who procs from CA

[frigid hound]

Literally beidou exist

[spark aurora]

oops

[ornate salmon]

beidou procs CA?

[muted arrow]

https://twitter.com/genshinBLANK/status/1454760294060802049?t=4wPGKDe0rF1hv2dZR1A8sQ&s=19

BLANK (@genshinBLANK)

Itto E : 3 particles
Gorou E : 2 particles
Gorou burst : 0 particles (the circle that follows you and does geo damage)
Itto burst : 0 particles, the geo attacks do 0 particles as well

STC
#GenshinImpact #Genshin

Likes

309

Twitter · Oct 31, 2021, 10:40 AM

[muted arrow]

this is the most trustworthy source since he's a miner and particle gen is in files

[primal wing]

Jesus why is their gen so bad

[frigid hound]

Beidou Q can proc if ur CA hits

[red umbra]

No

I got that info from a beta tester

I don't know if it's in the files

[frigid hound]

[red umbra]

But I trust the beta tester

[muted arrow]

oh

[ocean bison]

so itto is basically xiao geo, since he doesnt generates particles in burst too

[muted arrow]

I remeber dim getting particles info from files or something

or if not dim somebody else

albedo's specifically

@red umbra

this is for fischl for example

[red umbra]

gmm

let me see

if I have these files

do you have the name of the file?

[muted arrow]

no

@hollow raptor maybe you do?

[red umbra]

I will try to find it

[muted arrow]

alright

[pearl bone]

sigurd off duty for a while now

it's from dim's repo

i dont have the link

dim's repo might be old as well

[red umbra]

that's pretty yikes particle gen

[pearl bone]

so u would have to have new files

[red umbra]

for gorou

[pearl bone]

i've been saying it whole afternoon

[red umbra]

I kinda expected itto to be 3

[pearl bone]

MHY wants you to pull Albedo

[red umbra]

but gorou being 2 sucks

well I can't find it

and won't continue searching for it

because I am a bit busy with other leak things

[storm tulip]

what, how dont you even have 4 NAs during Q

yeah I wasnt talking about 8 during itto Q either you would always weave an auto in albedo E and gorou E at a minimum

[reef stump]

N2 and N4, but there aren't enough frames to proc on N1 and N2, so he will proc once on N2 and twice on N4

[storm tulip]

he should proc 3 times on N4

[reef stump]

N4 is 145 frames in the counts I use

[storm tulip]

I have it at 160, maybe that is why

although full calcs also need to be made for xingqiu, full NA combo isnt that bad after the buffs, there might be a better rotation to improve team dps there for getting some more xingqiu procs, I dont think he warrants any amazing use on the team compared to other slots he could be replaced with or other teams he could be put in, so not gonna go to the trouble of calcing something I know I'm not gonna end up using

[reef stump]

MV wise it doesn't look as terrible but A4 doubles down on the difference

I made a comparison yesterday for my frames:

NA only combo, 659 Frames

Optimal CA combo, 659 Frames

And sure there are more mixed combos

to try and force more XQ procs

but I don't think its worthwhile to overcap Superlative Stacks just to get 2-3 XQ procs more

and with E randomly getting hit potentially pushing for even more SCA Spam

I don't see that happening

especially since N1SCA1 Spam looks terrible MV wise

Even if you end up getting your 8 XQ procs and that ends up being a solid amount of dmg similar to the other Sub DPS options its still in that "whatever" territory where none of the options look great and are kinda scuffed with negligible dmg differences and rather weakish overall contribution.

[storm tulip]

well, by that argument then xingqiu would technically be one of the few worthwile supports to run just because he is one of the few that sustains the crystallize throughout the whole rotation duration (and makes them twice as effective)

regardless, zhongli is by far the best for the 4th slot from a pratical standpoint, it is the only way you assure geo resonance uptime, has good dps contribution pretty much for free just from resonance ticks, brings ER requirements to pretty much 0 on everyone but gorou (which is at 2pc emblem+fav bow without substats range then), improves the damage of all 3 of his teammates

especially after gorou changes where extending his Q has very little value to be gained

[reef stump]

I agree that ZL seems like the best pick from a consistentcy perspective if you don't have any pivotal elemental checks. The extra shred covers atleast half of the current Sub DPS dmg contributions, so anything ZL himself adds on top closes the gap while providing the most effective shield and dropping ER reqs further as you say.

I'm primarily hesitant with regards to XQ as C1 and good hit rng are anti-synergy to an already scuffed version of Sub DPS XQ. Sure if you value XQs DR that highly its technically an option but its a mere shadow of the XQ people usually expect. Not to mention that it looks much worse if XQ isn't C6.

[muted arrow]

fischl prob makes more sense right?

[reef stump]

FIschl dmg doesn't really look higher with just 1 E or Q per rot

[storm tulip]

she has very poor uptime and damage in the comp

itto doesnt let you use oz effectively like noelle does

[muted arrow]

hmm what if you use E at the start of the rotation, then before gorou Q> itto you use fischl Q? Could work for first rotation but then for second rotation onwards you'd have to do something different

also she would have higher ER requirements

otherwise Bennett might really be the most fitting choice

[reef stump]

Bennett looks best on paper but you are hard pressed to maintain Geo Reso with him

and if Geo Reso breaks

ZL is better

[muted arrow]

yeah I was thinking zl itto gorou bennett

but 4 geo looks best when it's possible

[reef stump]

Thats when you don't have Albedo

but if you have him there is no point in dropping him for Bennett

[muted arrow]

yeah I agree

really an awkward spot anyway

it seems mihoyo is pushing only 3 geo

but there is no perfect 4th slot

that's not geo

[reef stump]

Itto comps brutallize Sub DPS potential that isn't Albedo

we'd basically need another low uptime high duration turret like him

to get a good 4th slot that isn't ZL

For reference, what I got with regards to Fish vs XQ:

[muted arrow]

what weapons

[reef stump]

R5 Sac and R5 Alley Hunter

30 Perfect Subs

[onyx junco]

does this mean that he doesnt generate energy with his E while on Q or...?

[frigid hound]

Nah

It means he functions normally

[muted arrow]

what if for first rotation you do this and then following rotations you alternate E and Q

assuming most enemies last like 2-3 rotations at high investment

although I understand the part of theorycrafting about infinite rotations

[reef stump]

Then you get about 5-6 Oz ticks more on the first rotation

and the same for the rest

[muted arrow]

ye

[reef stump]

but given the 170k already includes Q dmg + E dmg

I don't think you actually get much more there

and you also icnrease ER reqs to even be able to do that

Although, not necessarily

[muted arrow]

hmm

yeah no

bc you do E>Q, then second rotation E

[reef stump]

If you E later where you'd otherwise used Q the E cd might check out on the second rot

[muted arrow]

then Q third

eventually

[reef stump]

So you'd look at 230kish dmg the first rot and 150kish on subsequent rots

[muted arrow]

you prob also get more A4 procs in first rotation

[reef stump]

Itto + Albedo with those investments sit at 800k-ish (R1 Redhorn) and 300k-ish (R5 Spindle) respectively.

A few additional A4 procs would be 10k-20k, so possibly 250k then

[muted arrow]

yeah not an albedo competitor but looks solid enough to compete with scuffed xq at least

[reef stump]

ZL shred as a comparison is 9.5% more dmg on Itto and Albedo, netting 104.5k Dmg + whatever he does himself

and possibly ToM/NO which is like 3% dmg for Itto, which is 24k

[muted arrow]

I'm looking on non albedo comps mostly for myself, so itto-zl-gorou-fischl seems potentially interesting to me

[mighty ridge]

If you are using Zhongli in an itto team, do you build him ADC?

[reef stump]

ZL shred on FIschl would be 16.67% more dmg pushing her up to ~290k for the first rot and ~175k for subsequent rots. Petra on Gorou could push that up further

[reef stump]

Itto is far more tanky than average so I'd definitely say yes. Maybe HDC if you don't feel comfrotable with ADC. But full shield bot seems like a waste

[muted arrow]

gorou petra is an interesting thought

can you do fischl with petra buff quickly

[reef stump]

if you do both E and Q is trivial, if you only do 1 it mgiht be a bit annoying/messy

FIsh E -> Gorou E (Petra) -> ZL stuff -> Fischl Q

[muted arrow]

yeah that's what I thought, I meant damage wise with petra only on Q for first rot, and then eventually just E or Q for following rotations

[reef stump]

Otherwise you'd ideally do FIsh CA -> Gorou E (Petra) -> ZL stuff -> Fish E/Q

[muted arrow]

ideally some crystals are still laying on the floor

[reef stump]

Gorou sucks them all up with his Q

[muted arrow]

once gorou comes in 2nd rotation onwards

we'll see how it is in practice

how strong is the suck etc

[reef stump]

Maybe you still have a stray one but I wouldn't want to rely on that

suck range is Ganyu/Kaz radius

[muted arrow]

ic

[reef stump]

atleast from what the Q range indicates

[muted arrow]

well otherwise would have to do what you said with CA

[storm tulip]

yes, with homa, HDC might be more damage depending on his talent levels though

[storm tulip]

6 a4 procs is probably way too much throughout the 12 seconds due to animations and ICD both on oz and the geo char on field

[mighty ridge]

What other weapon would work? Don’t wanna risk on the weapon banner

[storm tulip]

deathmatch is great, blackcliff is good, lithic spear can do a poor deathmatch impersonation if r5, catch is passable, any 5 star is great

and if you lack any of these options, fav spear is just extremely comfortable team ER at that point

[reef stump]

The Calc wasn't specifically made for an Itto comp and just as a general Ballpark.

Lets map that out:
If you cast E/Q right before Gorou Q you get 1 A4 from Gorou and have 8s left of Oz when you start with Itto. 2nd A4 from E, 3rd A4 from N1 afterwards (1s into Itto Q), 4 on the second SCA roughly 2s later. 3 SCAs later the next (5th) after another 2s roughly and then on N3 another 2-3s later (6th) and then Oz expires

So 5-6 should be realistic

[muted arrow]

that rotation I mentioned should bump it up forn 9-10 during first rotation

[mighty ridge]

Oh cool I have a spare deathmatch. ADC and there should be no problems with Er ya?

[reef stump]

Should be 3 more, Gorou E, ZL E and ZL Q

maaaybe a 4th from a Pillar tick but proc cd might not check out

[storm tulip]

4th one didnt go through Oz ICD, there is no electro aura

[muted arrow]

gorou E is only 1 time damage?

[storm tulip]

yes

[muted arrow]

oh then 3 realistically yeah

[storm tulip]

with quad geo no ER problems at all, since you only get to use each Q per 20 seconds

[reef stump]

Even with 2 C6 procs from the starting N2? But I guess Albedo E and ZL E ticks might generally chip away at the electro Aura so it could be unstable regardless

[storm tulip]

in fact with quad geo, gorou would run elegy for those who have it, just because fav is not needed then

purely because 20% team atk is better than nothing

[storm tulip]

yes, fischl ICD is every 5 hits or 2.5seconds

[mighty ridge]

How does sac compare? Since it’s quad geo and you don’t need to fish for crit sins and can go full def/def/def

[storm tulip]

that is a minor concern, they both have ICD on their geo application anyways, they might maybe steal 1 proc, but they would basically need to line up within a relatively small time frame

[storm tulip]

sac=fav for gorou, but with less personal energy recharge

also def/def/def is a complete and utter waste

especially in quad geo

because zhongli shield aint breaking

[mighty ridge]

But would you be building gorou for damage?

Zhongli would be ADC

[storm tulip]

not a priority, but yes, he has no better build then

difference between def/geo/crit and def/def/def is 2270 total healing from c4 during whole Q duration, less if the geo/crit pieces have any defense substats at all

if you ask me that is not worth gorou dealing half damage

[muted arrow]

realistically we'll be slapping ER sands on him for comfort

[storm tulip]

no need for it in quad geo since you are always using an energy recharge bow since we have no other viable options

[storm tulip]

like elegy is the only one that would even consider er sands

with fav bow you only need 23% ER from substats, if you are using emblem, you only need 3%, anything extra is just more comfort

no need for ER sands

traveler=itto, gorou=ning

[mighty ridge]

Now I have a month to farm 4 good geo goblets

[reef stump]

6 weeks with Itto being the second Banner in all likeliness

[storm tulip]

this is ER requirements with no particles from enemies at all

[muted arrow]

enemies going out of albedo or zl range already screws that up by a bit, I'd rather slap additional ER on him and have a more reliable rotation that way since his damage isn't really noteworthy

[storm tulip]

it screws it up a bit, but not a huge amount and if you are using favonius bow, you can get 2 procs from it suring support rotation

[reef stump]

puts seal of approval on Quad Geo

[storm tulip]

since you would go from itto->gorou E and at the end gorou Q->itto