Itto Thread

[alpine crown]

ill try to find them

[red umbra]

even going off that data as far as i can see raiden national and childe national both have higher usage rate and better clear times on average

than hutao comps

lol

[storm tulip]

Spiralabyssappsample, do pay attention at how they rate teams, the top teams are top most used, not top speed

[red umbra]

why should most used team = best team

the most used team on 5 of the 6 floor 12 chambers is raiden national anyways

lmao

[storm tulip]

Fastest clear comp with relevant popularity right now is raiden, c6 sara, kazuha bennet with hu tao/xingqiu/albedo/zhongli and raiden national after that

[red umbra]

in which chamber lol

for one the fact that hutao/xq/albedo/zl is the fastest clearing hutao comp is already problematic

[storm tulip]

In basically all of them, the data from the site is only good for the first half anyways due to how it is collected

[muted arrow]

unless I'm missing something currently the spiral abyss tracker only has hu tao averaging better time than a xl team vs kenki

which is reasonable

[red umbra]

^

[storm tulip]

So only 1st chamber halvez have actual relevant comparisons

[red umbra]

and in 1st half chambers xiangling comps are shitting on hutao clear times for 12-1 and 12-3

lmao

[storm tulip]

Look at hu tao+kazuha 1st chamber, 1st chamber is basically dominated by anemos and this is why you see that

[red umbra]

on 12-3-1 the fastest clear times are raiden sara kaz bennett at 47s then childe and raiden national at 58s

[storm tulip]

Also it did change since last week, but it has been pretty consistent for the last 2 patches

[red umbra]

has it? i havent been looking at the numbers every week but i dont ever remember hutao being faster outside of ST content

in the first place these numbers are an awful metric at assessing unit strength

[storm tulip]

They are to assess comp strength for your average player that is cleaeing abyss

[muted arrow]

well wouldn't say awful because as a general view it still highlights things like kazuha tao being the quickest hu tao comp in practice for the average player, just prob not enough for detailed analysis

[red umbra]

i disagree with the initial statement that tao was crept by xiangling but spiral abyss data does not prove shit

[storm tulip]

And again the way data is gathered makes 2nd half times be very weird too

[vale pawn]

I just want to add

That Itto is powercreeping Xiao

[storm tulip]

Also any xiangling comp without bennet is also in the garbage can

[vale pawn]

all Itto wanters want more powercreep in the game

[red umbra]

yeah that's why i disagree that tao gets crept by xiangling

bc xiangling requires bennett to get better performance than tao

and the difference is only marked in aoe

[storm tulip]

Like tao doesnt need bennet but he still imrpoves tao dps

Especially if bennet is c6 in both comparisons

[red umbra]

tao requires xq and technically xiangling doesn't but

[storm tulip]

Xiangling does, or childe, it is one of the 2 really

[red umbra]

tao still has more flexibility outside of xq

[muted arrow]

really confused by this comp

[red umbra]

yeah xiangling can work with childe

[vale pawn]

why?

[red umbra]

ur not getting vv

first rotation

[storm tulip]

You are getting it on xingqiu which still deals a shit ton of dmg

And kazuha by himself is amazing

[vale pawn]

it's ok, imho, because Kazuha has enough personal dmg to make up for that

[red umbra]

kazuha dmg isn't incredible outside of transformative comps

but i see ur point

[storm tulip]

That is very wrong

A well invested kazuha dps is incredible

[muted arrow]

add either Kaeya/rosaria or a second pyro replacing zl and the comp is much better

[red umbra]

are u assuming crit build or EM build

lol

[storm tulip]

If you want kazuha personal dps

Crit obviously

[vale pawn]

while he is a monster in OL, even in vape comps his dmg is also nothing to scoff at

[red umbra]

i mean u can build crit but then u lose a lot of his buffing

it's almost never worth it

[vale pawn]

although, for that, Jean might be better

[muted arrow]

he's very good in transformative comps damage wise and good in amp comps

[red umbra]

yea

[reef stump]

Kaz dmg should still be fine in a Vape comp. Its jsut that Kaz dmg in an OL comp is compeltely nuts

[storm tulip]

It is not even close even in transformative comps, em only wins in echareged anyways due to how hard it is for chain reactions to occur anyone else and even then only if he is buffing 2+chars

[muted arrow]

don't see the appeal of crit kazuha if you don't bring somebody like bennett along

[red umbra]

his dmg is still good it's just not incredible outside of transformative comps

in transformative comps his dmg is competing with the big boy subdps like beidou and xl

[steep marsh]

if you are infusing Hydro not really

[storm tulip]

65k damage per E is a pretty decent reason

[steep marsh]

I really doubt you are doing 65k per E with a reasonable build

[vale pawn]

anyway

this is Itto thread

[red umbra]

it's insane how much work ayzel did on comparing kazuha builds and ppl still question EM build lol

[vale pawn]

we should stay on point

and point is

Itto is bringing powercreep

[reef stump]

not really

[vale pawn]

and that makes me want to go full "reeeeeee" at MHY

[reef stump]

Itto seems pretty in line

[muted arrow]

until the ER situation is clarified I wouldn't even say he's comfier than xiao to use

[vale pawn]

depends what you consider to be the line

[storm tulip]

With my black sword, triple crowned, 65/190, 4pc VV, total 65k per E tap+plunge+2 swirls

[reef stump]

Other Top C0/1 Meta comps

[storm tulip]

With my jade cutter I do more

[vale pawn]

Yeah, I don't consider Ganyu to be in line

[reef stump]

If Itto is powercreep bow down to your new queen Noelle aswell

bc she isn't far off

[red umbra]

is this average dmg or crit dmg

[vale pawn]

Noelle is better than people realize

[red umbra]

bc ayzel did a shitton of build comparisons

and it didnt look very pretty for crit build kaz

[vale pawn]

But she needs so much investment

[reef stump]

exact same story for Itto

Itto and Noelle are incredibly similar on a build and stat level

[muted arrow]

itto and noelle are the exact same except itto has higher MV lol

[vale pawn]

only thing between amber and ganyu is a truck load of MV on Ganyu

[storm tulip]

Crit, but also missing 4pc no, 4pc tenacity, any other team buffs or resonance buffs, etc. Which you would have in regular use

[muted arrow]

🤨

[storm tulip]

It also doesnt include any chain reaction damage if we would be comparing that to EM build either

So overall it is a pretty fair assumption

[red umbra]

it seems fair but i am still taking ayzels calcs over an isolated anecdote without sufficient context

[muted arrow]

what's the thesis behind itto being powercreep

[red umbra]

not that i distrust what ur saying it's just these comparisons are a lot easier to make when the numbers are laid in front of u by someone who has spent a long time accounting for most scenarios

https://keqingmains.com/kazuha/ if u wanna see them they're here btw

[muted arrow]

he's one of the most limited characters ever in terms of comp flexibility and his top comp doesn't even deal insane dpr

[vale pawn]

@reef stump do you have Ayaka sheet that uses same methodology as you used for your Itto sheet? I'd like to see comparison between these two

[storm tulip]

I've seen it

[reef stump]

I haven't sheeted Ayaka yet but should be doable fairly easily if I get a rotation for how a Carry Ayaka rotation looks like

[red umbra]

like i would say this is prob the fairest comparison

[reef stump]

Since Ayaka is just BS Stat stick with VV in her most prominent use case

[red umbra]

well actually in the context of a hutao comp it's not fair

since ur prob not running bennett

[storm tulip]

Yes and no, yes if we are talking purely as a support value pick

[red umbra]

i like to assess support/sub dps in terms of contribution to total team dps rather than personal dps

should have established that earlier

[storm tulip]

But freedom sworn is actually very far behind jade or mistsplitter in terms of adx damage and favors em a lot more

[vale pawn]

IIRC Ayaka's rotation is weapon depentant, so you'd have to fix weapon first

[red umbra]

fair yeah mist should have been considered

for adc

[reef stump]

My current staple is the best 4* weapon R5. Could do R1 Mistsplitter ofc since I have R1 Redhorn for both Itto and Noelle

[storm tulip]

Also adc value is a lot higher in chambers with waves like we currently have

[vale pawn]

but if we are going for fairest, then, R1 Mist if we comparing to R1 Redhorn

otherwise, it'll be a bit unfair, since you are going to be comparin R5 blackcliff to R5 SS

[storm tulip]

With enough damage you have adc kazuha taking care of a full wave by himself (with bennet since he is literally the most synergistic character for him due to his absorptions and great scaling) saving you time on cooldowns on your main carries which can then clear second wave

[reef stump]

Yeah Freeze DPS swords suck

[vale pawn]

at least F2P ones

Mistspliter is amazing on it's own

[red umbra]

this is kinda fair but this is purely in the context of vape comps

[storm tulip]

Ayzel's guide is very good, but as someone who has played kazuha in abyss solo, duo, full team with both EM and adc builds I find it to be more theoretical than pratical in actual gameplay with results to show for it

[red umbra]

and in this case hutao vape comps

where there's no bennett

[reef stump]

Meant the 4* options, Mistsplitter is incredible

[red umbra]

with chain reactions the personal dmg argument for kazuha crit build kinda goes out the window

[storm tulip]

No, with chain reactions it still out performs is the thing, and I mean faster clears not his damage

Dont forget chain reactions might deal more dmg

But enemies dont have an infinite amoubt of hp

[red umbra]

less frontloaded dmg maybe but the scenarios where that's valuable on kazuha are quite niche i feel

[storm tulip]

I can have adc kazuha dealing 500k and chain reaction doing 800k but if the enemy has 400k hp adc kazuha killed it way faster

[storm tulip]

It is literally valuable currently in every chamber but kenki

Actually scratch that

Even kenki

You can phase him with just kaz

And use bigger cooldowns for 2nd phase

[red umbra]

i mean 500k per rotation assumes full Q right

that's a pretty long time

chain reaction build isn't gonna get the damage out in much less time really

[reef stump]

So, then I'd need a R1 Mist rotation for Ayaka in a scenario where she acts as the primary DPS ina Freeze Team and rough ER reqs for that.

[storm tulip]

With bennet around 5 seconds of Q with an r1 5 star like mist or jade

[reef stump]

Since I do not own Ayaka I am not super knwoledgable about her carry rotations

[storm tulip]

And c1 brings that to around 650 cause you fit an extra E in there

[red umbra]

sure but it's not like chain reaction dmg is coming out much slower

the delay between kaz's dmg and the chain reaction is like 1s at most

[storm tulip]

Yes, but kazuha's personal dps to a single target with adc

[red umbra]

ok yeah

[storm tulip]

Doesnt also go down the drain

[red umbra]

if it's ST

[storm tulip]

Once enemies die

[red umbra]

then there's an argument

we were talking about multitarget

i agree on the ST point though

[storm tulip]

Nah, i'm talking multi target

Talking about a place like 12-3 for example

[red umbra]

when there's one enemy left in a wave then yea that's fair

[storm tulip]

Once the adds die, the remainder of time on EM completely tanks dps wise

While adc keeps its value

[red umbra]

Yeah I agree that the personal dmg difference between crit and EM sheets a bit favourably for EM generally

but it has to be a pretty significant difference

to outweight the team dps loss by building adc

[storm tulip]

As I said, ayzel's guide is good, but a bit shorsighted in pratical scenarios

[red umbra]

it's quite hard to account for shit like that tho

like the best u can do for a guide there is to say that adc gives u more flexibility

[storm tulip]

Yes exactly

Which he does the opposite

Is my gripe with it

[ancient pecan]

adc kills his DMG% buff though
a free goblet for the team is a very strong buff

unless you're playing geo

[red umbra]

yeah, even when u account for potential practical increases in kaz's personal dps over em build it has to be a large difference to outweigh the team buff

this is in ST too

[ancient pecan]

ADC is also way harder to build
EM only needs EM and maybe ER
ADC needs 3 stars + maybe ER

[storm tulip]

It does, but that is also my point, abyss doesnt have strong enough enough where EM build for team buff outweighs the value of not using cooldowns in your carries and getting a smaller buff for second wavez

Yes, adc is more expensive that is correct

Not saying you should build it

Just I find people saying why would I run kazuha crit when it deals less damage to be completely idiotic

[ancient pecan]

... but usually you aren't extending your rotations by using kaz

[storm tulip]

Even with chain reactions on multi target an adc build wins

[ancient pecan]

i dunno

[red umbra]

it doesn't

on paper

[storm tulip]

No, you would be doing 2 rotations instead of one in terms of speed

[ancient pecan]

my kaz does 7k per swirl
it's pretty good as long as there are 2+ targets

[storm tulip]

Is my point

[red umbra]

yeah there is an argument that adc kaz can work to clean up fodder waves

but like

[storm tulip]

Adc kazuha basically takes a full rotation out of tbe equation

[red umbra]

for that to hold, there has to be only one enemy left in that wave

[ancient pecan]

why wouldn't EM kaz work as a fodder cleaner?

fodder is what he wants to kill
weak but numerous waves

[storm tulip]

Also benny+kaz by themselves can clear their halves in competitive time with 4 man squads either way

[ancient pecan]

to maximize swirls and reactions

[red umbra]

i think the argument is that there are sometimes scenarios where there's only one target left of a wave

[ancient pecan]

there are only 2 scenarios i can see ADC better than EM
triple geo teams
and ST chambers

[red umbra]

but again even then it's questionable whether that slightly increased utility in cleaning up weak waves outweighs the difference in team dps

[storm tulip]

He doez, but he does it way slower, he does it in like 10seconds vs 5 pretty much

[ancient pecan]

and maybe whale kaz with crazy strong artifacts

[red umbra]

not to mention that like these adc assumptions are assuming bennett

which means kaz has to take bennett buff uptime

[storm tulip]

He takes a very small uptime of that

[red umbra]

does he?

[ancient pecan]

how? why does EM take double the time?

does ADC kaz really do double the damage of EM?

[storm tulip]

Because damage is in bursts from adc due to his E

[ancient pecan]

but EM kaz also does damage in bursts

[red umbra]

uhhh

^

[ancient pecan]

that same E is also swirling twice

[red umbra]

and proccing chain reactions instantly

[storm tulip]

Em kazuha does it a lot more sustained

And em kazuha

[red umbra]

idt it's any more sustained

[storm tulip]

Needs someone on field

[red umbra]

than adc

[ancient pecan]

[storm tulip]

For those reactions

[red umbra]

huh

[storm tulip]

Like Em kazuha requires your other teammates to use their cooldowns is the thing

Adc kazuha does not

That is how he gains damage in my experience

By having you save cooldowns

[red umbra]

not really

there just needs to be an aura

[ancient pecan]

oh no i have to deploy my turret before using kaz instead of after

[red umbra]

not having an aura also cucks adc kaz damage

btw

[ancient pecan]

using a cooldown before it's not a big deal

[storm tulip]

Yes, and that aura is getting instantly cleared, just swirl damage is awfuk compared to adc

[ancient pecan]

in some teams it's actually a requirement

[storm tulip]

You need chain reactions

[ancient pecan]

to setup an aura with his burst

[red umbra]

the aura gets reapplied with kaz plunge

[storm tulip]

Yes but again

[red umbra]

that's why he's good at sustaining chains

[storm tulip]

Just swirls

Is trash

Chained reaction is needed

Who is doing second element?

[ancient pecan]

did you miss the 1.6 EM buffs?

[red umbra]

i mean which comps are we talking about

bc in general it's fairly easy to sustain 2 aura

[storm tulip]

Did you miss his numbers i'm talking trash as comparison between the 2

Not trash in actual numbers

[red umbra]

most chain reaction based comps have fischl or raiden

which is like 100% aura uptime

[storm tulip]

Raiden is proccing an overload every 2nd kazuha Q hit

Again, doesnt really compete

[ancient pecan]

his MVs are good
but not good enough to dismiss reactions

[storm tulip]

Ut does work in echarged

[red umbra]

oh yeah i play EC rather than OL with raiden so i cant actually speak for the latter

i never had that issue with fish but i havent played OL raiden extensively

i actually dont rlly like OL kazuha that much

[storm tulip]

Like i've had this discussion a shit ton of times, people have a hard time to understand it without having acess to both builds and testing it by themselves

I thought em was vetter too

Until I actually went in game and tested

[red umbra]

i have tried ADC i have a 78-180 t8 kazuha w cutter

my clear times were fairly similar on childe vape

but on transformative comps it wasn't rlly a contest

[storm tulip]

With em buffing characters like childe, xiangling, xingqiu, fischl beidou it never actually won over ADC for me

Like adc won in clear time by a solid 7-12 seconds for me every time

Even in current abyss

I still run EM from time to time cause big pp numbers memes, but adc just always won

[red umbra]

fair each to their own ig

[storm tulip]

I do have him triple crowned I said this

[red umbra]

it's defo true that it isn't completely clear cut but i think the consensus that EM kaz is better is not unreasonable

even if it's not a universal case

[storm tulip]

And talent investment matters a lot if we are talking 10/10/10 vs 8/8/8 for examole

[storm tulip]

Nah that consensus is correct

[ancient pecan]

not everyone has a 5* adc sword

[storm tulip]

But people saying crit build kazuha is bad is completely incorrect

[storm tulip]

Yeah they dont this is why I have ran tests with blacksword despite it actually being pretty bad for what he wants to do in general

[ancient pecan]

and even then
if you're using 5* weapons you should probably compare the build with freedom sworn kaz
and the team damage buffs that implies

[storm tulip]

And I also did iron sting tests with adc

I ran 2.0 abyss like what 700+ times

What i am saying is based on quite a bit of testing

And still holds true current abyss

Again for me, we all have different artifacts yada yada

[ancient pecan]

in any case i'll agree in one thing
his best build is probably an adc+em hybrid
benny already provides the attack
you only need anemo dmg and crit to complete the build

without sacrificing his support capabilities or personal damage

[storm tulip]

I thought the same, it was closer but still slightly behind, close enough that it is basically irrelevant though

And my Em sands are better than my atk sands

[reef stump]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15uA5-pXIh5STcOiEkFgaIwdNzbnslZOdZY5x2lgQFIs/edit#gid=0

Here is Ayaka, had to improvise based on frames for her on-field rotation as a carry since as so often nobody told me what she usually does (or how often) in a rotation.

Ayaka has stupidly high raw MV

[vale pawn]

yeah, to compensate for lack to cryo atk buffer and no amps

only multipliers are her MV, Cryo, and CRIT

cannot use either Sara or Bennet in BS

Thanks a lot

in perspective, Itto looks less unbalanced then I though

[reef stump]

The thing is, if you rip out the AoE mod from Xiao

and look at dmg per target w/o collision

he actually sucks for being his whole teams dmg

[vale pawn]

Well, there is also Albedo

But yeah, I don't think that will do

[reef stump]

Xiao w/o Bennett looks cope in personal damage, not even 600k iirc

[azure dagger]

xiao personal dmg c0 r1 max single target is like 450k for me

assuming 8 plunges and n1C

[reef stump]

sheet or in practice bc afaik 8N1CJP doesn't even fit

[azure dagger]

sheet

[reef stump]

atleast frame wise its super sus

[azure dagger]

is xiao's n1CjP rotation during burst less than 8?

xiao's c0 r1 12 plunge dmg rotation for me is only around 380k

[reef stump]

7 is what the frames allow, 8 is a bit over, not sure if ther eis some hitlag(extension) that allows for it in practice

[azure dagger]

okay lemme recalc to 7n1Cjp

[reef stump]

and 12 High Plunges is pretty much frame perfect execution based on frames

[azure dagger]

okay c0 r1 pjws xiao by himself w/ average investment (20 rolls) lvl 90 t10 normals should be like 390000 total dmg single target

assuming 7n1cjp

[reef stump]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vYgQnCwdcVDplLILAn189Pacu-bEzTDvlKPI1AlThA8/edit#gid=0

thats my Xiao Calc

[azure dagger]

looks like we're p close

oh wait you're using deathmatch

r5 hmm

[reef stump]

I'm using higher ivnestment on Artifacts but also R5 DM over PJWS

since I usually do R5 4* BiS

[azure dagger]

yea my artifact investment is less than yours so 400K ballpark single target seems reasonable

and im only using r1 pjws

[twin abyss]

Redhorn r1 vs spine r5?

[alpine crown]

redhorn r1

by like 4-5%

[twin abyss]

That's kinda low

[alpine crown]

spine is just really good

[azure dagger]

^

bp weapon comparison for other weapons besides SS is much less lower since Dmg bonus scale heavier

but R1 RS vs. R5 SS is like 4.3% increase in favor of R1 RS

[fickle lance]

SS also is conditional on the amount of stacks you have

which if you're running a shield, shouldn't really matter

but it's still annoying to deal with

[alpine crown]

you want a shield for itto bc of the geo resonance anyway

so shouldnt be a big deal

[fickle lance]

you dont need to

a lot of people have itto albedo and gorou as their core

[alpine crown]

and 4th character is either off-type for crystallize or zhongli for shield

[fickle lance]

I haven't done the math on crystallize but I imagine it's not as comfy as zhongli

[reef stump]

Thats still theoreticla on the assumption that you get enough shield uptime. In situations where you face enough pressure for that to be insufficient you want shielder since otherwise you also lose the RES shred.

And in situations where Crystallize shields are sufficient you don't have to to worry about SS Stacks either

So there shouldn't be a situation where SS has issues w/o the comp in general being scuffed

[muted arrow]

as some user said earlier you likely need a continuous source of sub dps

like fischl

[fickle lance]

Yea that's fair, I guess the question is how sustainable are Crystallize shields. Hopefully it's enough for you to take a mauling for the 12-13 seconds Itto is on field. It would suck for Zhongli to be a requirement

[muted arrow]

to have consistent crystallize

so bennett doesn't really make sense on albedo team

[twin abyss]

Does corrosion remove SS stacks

[fickle lance]

I don't think so

[muted arrow]

I'd say the only option is fischl?

[fickle lance]

even fischl wont have full uptime during Itto's field time unless it's C6 I think

[muted arrow]

yeah it's unlikely

she'll need a lot of er

[reef stump]

C2 Rosa can work but also needs a metric ton of ER and si stationary

[fickle lance]

C2 rosa doesn't sound too bad

I guess Raiden if you really want to go that route

[muted arrow]

how long does crystallize last?

[reef stump]

Thoma could've been neat if he triggered with CAs

[fickle lance]

I think the shields last a while

I just don't really know what their effective hp is

[muted arrow]

well thoma's damage is still like, really bad

use xq with NA spam

[reef stump]

most subs dmg in an Itto comp is going to be pretty bad tbh

[muted arrow]

he makes crystallize more durable too

[reef stump]

I'm honestly leaning towards just going with ZL unless you have an elemental check

[muted arrow]

yeah prob

[fickle lance]

ugh what an expensive comp

[muted arrow]

I wonder how zl with homa does here

prob not bad

[reef stump]

Albedo has a construct, Itto has a construct, budget microwave

[fickle lance]

how durable is Zhongli's shield if you are running ADC?

or I guess

HDC

[muted arrow]

durable enough

[reef stump]

I ususally find it to be enough with HDC

but my standards for survivability are weird

[fickle lance]

thats without black tassel right

[reef stump]

My ZL has DM, so yeah

[muted arrow]

https://streamable.com/vqisvi

[reef stump]

Homa ofc helps the shield if you have that for him

[muted arrow]

nothing new but yea

[fickle lance]

I remember mine getting bopped after like two hits in abyss 12 a while back

[muted arrow]

also his attacks during burst are so damn quick

his "recoil" after NA4 seems small

[fickle lance]

but that was without geo reso or TOM

[reef stump]

footage looks beautifully clean for frame counts

[muted arrow]

like raiden

[fickle lance]

that clip is very helpful

I might re-do my frame counts for the NA string

[reef stump]

I have him doing
E N3 SCA4 N3 SCA4 E

So, yeah he attacks quite quickly

Still a bit uneasy about the energy in Q thing though

[fickle lance]

both Es during his burst?

[reef stump]

Yeah

by far his highest value action

[fickle lance]

dang

thats crazy

[muted arrow]

E is a big chunk of damage

[fickle lance]

yea his E is actually wild

good frames from what I see as well

[reef stump]

gives a stack and Its somewhere around 40 frames

[muted arrow]

just might be tricky if he has to use hold E ig?

ideally you can just press E consistently

[reef stump]

aiming might be tight yeah

whats also to be considered is

if his E gets hit

he is forced to do SCA5

or longer

so you have to manually adjust

[muted arrow]

yeah that's a pretty funny thing I noticed too, his stacks are so volatile it's tough to predict his combos

[fickle lance]

you can just let go after the 3rd one right?

[muted arrow]

during action

[reef stump]

worst case you have to drop the E at the end out of Q

[reef stump]

Likely not worth since you have ramping ATK SPD

and you have Stacks left over between rotations anyway

due to E

So you will always have to adjust on the fly

YOu can randomly start with 5 Stacks at C0

[fickle lance]

lol that's pretty funny

[reef stump]

past the first rotation

[fickle lance]

it'd be interesting since you would have to adjust your string

on the fly

[reef stump]

C1 might be able to do a SCA10+ randomly with good E hit rng

[muted arrow]

final hit likely throws opponents out of E range

[reef stump]

I mean if you

E N3 SCA5 N3 SCA5

you lose 200ish MV

not great but not the end of the world either

Important is that you stay efficient in your choices

[muted arrow]

on second thought actually nah E range is not THAT small, prob fine

[alpine crown]

you can always use E after the burst ends

[reef stump]

I'd say his E looks like Ganyu E

[alpine crown]

not as much atk on itto, but not as big a loss

[reef stump]

Thats also true

So the loss is even smaller than 200 MV

and thats also 200 MV at T10

[muted arrow]

how is his combo looking with c1 instead?

[reef stump]

I think it was Q E SCA (6-8) N3 SCA4 (E)

You can at minimum do SCA6 right off the bat, if he gets hit or destroyed you get up to SCA8

[muted arrow]

I wonder how much better that is tho

[reef stump]

and 1 Stack left over generated after the finisher

[muted arrow]

doesn't seem insane

[reef stump]

It was 10-15% before the NA Buffs

so likely not much left

Haven't reiterated on his C1 yet, its been a while

[muted arrow]

yeah

[reef stump]

I'd treat it like Raiden C1

neat but not necessarily significant damage

helps make him a bit more bursty which has value for speedruns

[muted arrow]

I get it but his CA just confuse me tbh, seems like they only become a real advantage when you have c6 to me atm lol

if NA spam allows you to use somebody like xq then doesn't that possibly end up being the better option

[reef stump]

They scuffed the advantage with the NA Buffs. The difference is there but a bit limited

The longer the SCA combo the more they set themselves apart

but if it wasn't for the 70% CD C6 wouldn't look very good either

My combo is 3.9k MV

SCA21 is 3960

kek

Add 1 E and its 4.5k ofc

[alpine crown]

thats why the NA buffs made no sense to me

[reef stump]

gets more A4 value

but thats about it

[muted arrow]

NA spam is just NA4 x4?

with 2 E

[reef stump]

E 3x N4D E

is his best NA combo

maybe E 5x N3D E if it fits

[muted arrow]

you still can't cancel his NA

[reef stump]

His NA is almost exactly like Noelle's

oh right

so its N4D

But that combo is only about 3250 MV

so you definitely want to not just spam NA

but its not as crippling as you'd think it should

[muted arrow]

but is it really just 3 N4

[reef stump]

590 frames for me atm, maybe you can get a N1-2 squeezed in there

[muted arrow]

yeah that's what I'm thinking

[reef stump]

Optimistic Its E 3x N4D + N2D E

which is uhhh

~3.6k MV

[alpine crown]

does itto's skill do 4x the damage during his burst vs outside his burst??

[reef stump]

roughly, yes

[alpine crown]

jeez

[muted arrow]

does that consider gorou too

[reef stump]

yes

[muted arrow]

so final E won't be x4 right?

[reef stump]

w/o Gorou its maybe 30%

Gorou's DEF doesn't help Itto's E dmg

outside Q

and if its entirely expired it might be less than 25%

[muted arrow]

yeah so using final E outside of burst might not be insanely detrimental

[reef stump]

if you trade well and not just do N1 in its stead yeah

[alpine crown]

ya without gorou I have like 31% instead of 26%

[reef stump]

Whats so sad is

If I skip E entirely

assuming he gets Xiao'd

2x N4 SCA5 is almost a second over in terms of frames

but only 3637.3% MV

So if that actually doesn't work

it drops to like 3.4k MV or so

which is like 15% worse

bringing him right back into Noelle range

[alpine crown]

ya the two Es do so much work

each is like 40k avg with 0 substats

[reef stump]

Its super fast and hurts immensly

3 times the MV of a Slash, goes out in 1.5 times the speed of a single slash

while actually generating Stacks

I don't even know how to make use of single pre-cast Stacks in non E combos

If do E Q N3 SCA4 N3 SCA4

thats just terrible

and E likely doesn't expire in time for a save N3 SCA5

[alpine crown]

this is why i dont like coming up with strings lmao

[reef stump]

I think its pretty fun but C0 Itto just has quite a few restrictions on how he can act, so its bit like a puzzle

if it doesn't fit it doesn't fit

[storm tulip]

tbf c0 itto might be better than c1 depending on frames

cause N1CA is technically his best combo

since even just 1 stack gives you the final slash instead of it being just 1 normal hit

[reef stump]

I don't see that at all.

Since his SCA combo always starts with a ~18 frame dash

Which is in most frame counts attributed to the first Slash

but has to be attributed to the SCAF if you do N1SCAF

[storm tulip]

I didnt get any frame data on dim's original video where he did a lot of n1CA

so I dont know

and video doesnt load for me anymore at least

[reef stump]

I know that from the early frame data it looked like N1SCAF was go to, bc it was assumign the fully ATK SPD buffed SCA frames w/o the starting Dash

[storm tulip]

but I'm fairly sure that going full 5 hits wont be the way, there is certainly a sweet spot in the middle to take advantage of the final hit multiplier better

[reef stump]

The final hit isn't actually that much better MV/s wise

double damage, double frames

I need to redo my sheet now thanks to sneaky Mhy

and also got new frame counts to work with from that beautifully clean new 60 fps clip

gotta see where that leads

So far I went with E N3 SCA4 N3 SCA4 E

But thats impossible to do now, so RIP

Or not

double sneaky mhy

new frames still

[ionic cape]

i just realize the gangplank wiggle also

[ocean bison]

what about both?

itto wont do nothing in the field when he is not on burst right?

[ancient pecan]

i hope itto's cow bypasses the geo construct limit
that would help a lot if you go for pseudo-microwave with ZL

[rigid bay]

I love how people still trying to advocate N1SCA1 when you need to consider that the speed buffs dynamically increases with every SCA, hence increasing the MV value of SCA4 against N1SCA1, which includes the final SCA. While the multiplier is indeed higher (hence why everyone who don't dabble with the frame data assumes it's the quote on quote, "the way"), the frames time needed to execute the whole thing takes much longer as well.

With the new frame data things will shift around slightly, but I hardly believe N1SCA1 is still better, considering the MV/s it has. If the speed passive was removed, then yes I'd consider, but as things stands, it's not the one and best way to do things.

Though on the other hand, if big numbers is all you're aiming for but losing a lot of DPS in the long run and inherently capping yourselves in the knees, go on.

[storm tulip]

yes, because no one mentioned, depending on frame data

[rigid bay]

The prospect of N1SCA1 has been offered even when Itto was first revealed with the frames counting, with the lovely effort TCers, but it never did really made sense.

[storm tulip]

also dont forgte that while, yes there is atk speed, hit lag does reduce the effectiveness of atk speed by a lot

[rigid bay]

?

[reef stump]

The issue extends past that but that sadly wasn't immediately obvious with the first counts.

Whenever you initate SCA with Itto you have a forward Teleport Dash. Initial Framecounts attributed that to his first Slash, which will normally be the case, but was hence ignored for N1SCAF considerations.

In truth however even if you have only 1 Stack you will do that Dash, increasing the overhead of having a 18 Frame dash at the start and likely ending with a dash cancel (24 frames). So N1SCAf has a 42 frame overhead which is a lot for such a short combo.

[rigid bay]

If that's the case, do provide the sheet

accounting for hitlag extension effect against N3SCA4 by comparison

of N1SCA1

[storm tulip]

not saying one wont happen over the other, I just personally dont have any good data on n1SCA, n2SCA or n3SCA hitting an actual enemy, if you do and can provide comparisons, please do

[rigid bay]

Yeah, I do account for that teleport dash, honestly. It makes things a little bit iffy for N1SCA all things considered, to be honest

There has been a shift in frames I believe?

[reef stump]

Newest Frames are pretty clean but sadly w/o hitlag so gotta see

[rigid bay]

Yeah, pretty much.

[reef stump]

Haven't found the time yet to redo some Calcs based on them. Gotta do that tomorrow

[rigid bay]

I'm operating in the assumption that this is only because we got provided the 60 FPS clip, to be honest

[storm tulip]

there has and I assume there will be some tweaks until live, itto is way easier to balance by fine tuning his frame values than his actual kit on mihoyo's end, so no real use in gathering much data on frames until he is live anyways

[rigid bay]

and that by official release, it'll be improved upon even further

[rigid bay]

?
That's why there is theorycrafting

We assume his expected performance, weaknesses, assess his value in fields and so on

To say that is is useless to gather data before official to make a hypothesis

Is a questionable statement

[reef stump]

We kinda need frame estimates for an early look at his dmg. Sure current frames are insufficient for the whole picture but its better than being completely in the dark

[rigid bay]

But yeah Raikh, same here. No time to revise my data for the time, I have work so I won't be able to do much, especially for this month and the next

Do let me know once you're done with yours so I could reference some points

in changes

[storm tulip]

it is useless in the sense, that his complete dps output hinges on it, and they wont change much from the first values we got, what I mean is that assuming more than it or checking every video where it might have changed until he is live is sort of wasted effort when we have a decent comparison for it already

[rigid bay]

[reef stump]

The point is rather video quality and precision rather than expecting animation changes

[rigid bay]

I think I'll just go get ready for work now

All the best, Raikh

[reef stump]

low quality videos can distort frames and having multiple points of reference helps with coming to a better conclusion

[reef stump]

See ya

[storm tulip]

I mean, they have changed animations in the past with ganyu, xiao, eula, hu tao to fine tune their damage that actually made a pretty decent difference in their total output during beta testing, I think even with better quality videos going out of your way to figure out if something is 34 or actually 38 frames due to video quality is wasted effort for prerelease theorycrafting, since overall difference wont be huge and all that data needs to be corroborated when the character is live anyways

[reef stump]

Sure a single 4 frame difference doesn't make much of a difference in a string. If its however 4 frames on every attack and you have 15 attacks thats a 1s difference which can make or break certain combos. You can ofc from the get go include a combo time variance and try account for that but you still don't know where the tendency swings.

Its ofc fair to say that a certain margin is enough for one's own pre-release evaluation, but that doesn't make trying to get more accurate results and thus predictions completely worthless

I personally am extremely tired of the underselling trend that happens in a lot of pre and early release evaluations, so I put a good amount of emphasis on a optimstic realistic evaluation rather than go the extremely save route, undershoot the unit by 20-30% and pretend I did a good job with that.

[storm tulip]

what underselling trend exactly?

I personally dont think any unit was undersold, except maybe kazuha, and that wasnt even underselling, that was just people not realizing how fluid his kit actually was on a fundamental level

[reef stump]

Unit evaluation early tends to be extremely cautious to the point of imprecise undershooting of a units merit. The most recent and most impactful examples being Kazuha and Raiden, were some early evaluations literally went out of their way to compeltely trash them

[storm tulip]

raiden?

whoever trashed raiden

deserves no respect whatsoever

[reef stump]

glances over at KQM

[pearl bone]

[atomic sundial]

hi Zack

[storm tulip]

hey vae

[atomic sundial]

but no speaking of Raiden

I saw randos saying she was gonna be bad with subpar damage and high field time blabla

[storm tulip]

yeah, people completely ignored her energy recharge and E

cause they were set on her Q dps

like seriously

[atomic sundial]

so there were definitely some doomposters out there underselling Raiden

[storm tulip]

that is just being blind

[atomic sundial]

[storm tulip]

yeah, but not any that actually deserve respect

[pearl bone]

reddit and casuals doomposting Raiden was a thing

[atomic sundial]

oh wait

[pearl bone]

but imagine being experienced TCer and doomposting Raiden

[atomic sundial]

the Raiden Beidou doomposting 10 seconds after release

[reef stump]

And lets just take blaming random people out of the picutre. I can't say I have been very satisfied with a lot of early takes so I'm gonna do more work myself to my own standards and hope to get more satisfactory results that way

[ancient pecan]

flashbacks to ganyu being called cryo amber

[storm tulip]

I honestly forgot that was gonna be a nonbo, but as soon as Live hit and knew about it I was like, yeah that makes 100% sense, that is what her autos being elemental burst damage mean, I'm fine with that

[atomic sundial]

Ganyu being called cryo Amber was because TC community wasn't all that big at the time

I think?

[pearl bone]

let's just say the whole Raiden drama took away a lot of respect that i had at some people and TC community as a whole

[storm tulip]

ganyu being called cryo amber is accurate

her kit is amber's

just better

that is pretty much the reason she is called that

[atomic sundial]

Yoimiya better Amber btw

[ancient pecan]

a lot better though

[storm tulip]

people just assumed "cryo amber" was an insult

for wrong reasons

[atomic sundial]

Eula is cryo Diluc?

[ancient pecan]

cryo razor

[supple sleet]

There are just some things math can never figure out till a unit is released

Like how many slept on Kazuha till they found out how “fun” he was to use

Subjective of course

[atomic sundial]

5* Sucrose btw

[supple sleet]

5* Sucrose btw

[reef stump]

The Raiden situation was definitely very baffling. And personally having been exposed to TC for like 10 years in WoW I have kind of a sense for when things are getting out of whack from the TC angle and know fairly well how useful certain TC tools actually are. So I have been very cautious about TC takes before aswell

[pearl bone]

it just exposes to me that some parts of Genshin TC community is really immature

despite their immense work

[reef stump]

And some look like they are just tired tbh

[lethal shell]

tbh at endgame

I wouldn't really pull for meta

[pearl bone]

Genshin doesnt require you to pull for meta

[reef stump]

tired of TC work not paying off, tired of Genshin content not supporting the dedication, tired of the time ti takes to get something fully built to actually play out whats on paper

[atomic sundial]

I collected so many of the limited banner supports

[ancient pecan]

yea once you can consistently 36* abyss there is no need for meta

[atomic sundial]

so now I'm waiting for the carries

[ancient pecan]

you can start trying out weird off-meta stuff at that point

and that is when the fun begins

[lethal shell]

I was doing raiden fischl xingqiu

the number of electro numbers is insane

[atomic sundial]

is it just me or they are releasing a lot of 5* dps these days?

[storm tulip]

they will always release more dps than support

[pearl bone]

Genshin is just too chaotic and memey

[lethal shell]

shows how dpses are very easily replaced

[brazen garden]

can sum1 PM me the raiden drama? dont want to derail the thread plz plz

[atomic sundial]

I'm hoping Shenhe plays with revmelt

[supple sleet]

I personally run main DPS Kazuha with 4p VV and Mistsplitter with c6 Bennett, Zhongli, Albedo. Can confirm my fun in the game rose dramatically with it despite having a C4 Diluc with Gravy or Xiao with Jade, who “objectively” do more damage.

[pearl bone]

def not me, and we already derailed it

[hoary robin]

sorry I don't know if this is the right place to ask but can itto regain energy during his ult or is he locked out of energy until it's over?

[supple sleet]

I mean no unit is unable to gain energy during their ult ever

[storm tulip]

we have no idea, but it is fair to assume he can because of c2

[hoary robin]

noelle?

[supple sleet]

Razor/Xiao just can’t get energy from their own E but they can get energy elsewhere

Noelle can’t generate her own energy without Fav but she can still gain it during burst

[storm tulip]

if he was completely locked out of genning energy from his E it would be weird for his c2 to reduce cooldown

[supple sleet]

It doesn’t specify Itto can’t gain energy from his E during ult in the description so for now safe to assume he can

[storm tulip]

especially because itto doesnt want to use E outside of Q

[red umbra]

Razor has like 190+ er from kit

[storm tulip]

while for xiao it makes no difference

[red umbra]

Xiao has sucrose with ttds

[storm tulip]

yeah razor is locked because of his amazing self energy gen even with the restriction, xiao is locked because of c6

[supple sleet]

I was just specifying there’s no unit that can’t get energy from any source during their ult mode

Just units that can’t generate it from their own skills during them

[hoary robin]

ah ok

[reef stump]

Just based on Dmg Calcs I would assume E generates energy in Q. Its just insanely valuable dmg wise

[red umbra]

Imma max out geo mc subdps and itto together

[reef stump]

design wise locking him out of it makes no sense

[red umbra]

10% crit rate from gmc is too good

[storm tulip]

yeah, design wise, e not genning energy during Q goes completely against what he wants to be doing

and would make c2 nerf uncalled for on top of that

[red umbra]

Most ppl aren't going to pull for Constellations anyway which is better for newer characters

[supple sleet]

Wouldn’t the c2 nerf balance the fact that he has a 70 cost/18 CD ult now

Instead of 80/20

[reef stump]

The C2 nerf is non-existant if you run triple Geo anyway and most assumptions I have seen use Triple Geo, not quad

[red umbra]

If you use the skill at the start of the burst, the cooldown will be gone either way since his burst last 11seconds

[reef stump]

But in essence it coutneracts the CD/energy change, yeah

[reef stump]

Ideally you want 2 Es inside his Q window

[red umbra]

Inazuma claymore fixes that issue with ER

[reef stump]

The Inazuma Claymore is an excellent way for you to kill your damage

[red umbra]

https://genshin.honeyhunterworld.com/db/weapon/w_2312/?lang=EN

[atomic sundial]

running ER claymore on Itto has the same vibes as running ER claymore on Eula

[ancient pecan]

but sac claymore for double baron cow

[atomic sundial]

stop memeing

[storm tulip]

tbf though only bennet is really good in that 4th slot over the 4th geoand bennet is better used somewhere else, like fischl/beidou/raiden are slots you can use but all have their own individual issues in the comp

yeah especially when gorou can run fav bow as a free roll, er claymore on itto is a meme

[atomic sundial]

what about Rosaria Zack

[red umbra]

Itto, geo mc, gorou and Bennett makes up for the damage lost tbh

And you have 100%. Uptime

[storm tulip]

yeah rosaria too, but rosaria is kinda awkward with all the kncokback I assume he has

being claymore

[red umbra]

Funny thing is that the pasive matches itto skill cooldown

[atomic sundial]

bigger aoe Rosaria when

Shenhe pls

[storm tulip]

that is ganyu

[atomic sundial]

Zack if you assume I'll ever use Ganyu I'll toast you like a bread

[storm tulip]

I only ever use her as a q bot now if ever

[reef stump]

The comp certainly doesn't treat non-Geo Sub DPS well. I personally would probably just run ZL in the 4th since the additional Geo shred is like half of Bennetts value across Itto and Albedo dmg, whereas some Pillar Resonance dmg probably gets you into a decent margin from the DPS optimal comp while having a truly save shield.

[red umbra]

Itto should get atleast 3/4 particles with skill

[storm tulip]

I assume 3

[red umbra]

So thats about 9 energy?

[storm tulip]

4 particles is usually reserved for skills at 12 seconds + cooldown, I dont think there is one below 12 where this is true except beidou counter which is a reward for using it correctly

[red umbra]

Imagine if his taunt is like ganyu

Double particles

[storm tulip]

well, kazuha hold E nvm me

[reef stump]

Didn't Ayaka have more than 3 with 10s. Not sure anymore

[storm tulip]

oh yeah ayaka too

ignore me

it is more recent chars they are being more generous with energy

[red umbra]

Either way Itto will be strong af either way with my artifacts and weapon

[storm tulip]

so hopefully itto will be too

and we did get a sussy leak saying 3-4 on nga and 2 particles for gorou, which I could see hapening

[reef stump]

Itto/Gorou/Albedo/Fischl calcs had him down to 126% ER with 3 on Itto and Gorou, Gorou with Fav

So I don't think Itto energy is going to be an overwhelming issue

Maybe it ends up in Eula range with 140ish%

But I have a hard time seeing it being worse

[red umbra]

Geo mc with favonious sword

[atomic sundial]

fav lance Rosaria

[ancient pecan]

pls no

[atomic sundial]

[ancient pecan]

geo mc's damage is good

[red umbra]

Yeah geo mc skill can hit like 40k damage every 6 seconds

[reef stump]

Geo MC dmg is gonna be pretty scuffed in Itto comps, since you cant quickswap like with Noelle

1 E per rot isn't really what you wanna do with GMC

[ancient pecan]

yes
but he still provides a bunch of constructs to resonate if you go the microwave route

instead of albedo + gorou

[red umbra]

Geo mc ult is a big factor

[reef stump]

If you go microwave you should probably play Noelle and not Itto

[storm tulip]

yeah, but unless you have c1 it doesnt outdamage albedo and with c1 it becomes super awkward cause ushi is a construct

so you start just deleting random zhong pillars

[ancient pecan]

baron cow will bypass construct limit

i have faith

[red umbra]

Zhongli belongs with xiao

[storm tulip]

construct limit just needs to be raised period

or c1 zhongli needs to ignore it

[ancient pecan]

construct limit should not exist

geo the most oppressed element

[frigid hound]

If construct limit does not exist

[red umbra]

You mean electro

[frigid hound]

I would be abusing something rn

[real phoenix]

shield is a bit more valuable now that itto has decreased resistances during ult

[brazen garden]

geoMC is just good on paper, boulders lifting enemys kills a run

[frigid hound]

It would get limited no matter what anyway

[ancient pecan]

ok maybe only geo MC needs construct limit

[red umbra]

Skill ceiling for aiming

[ancient pecan]

every other geo unit has it built in into their kit

ZL -> only 1 pillar, 2 with c1
itto -> only 1 cow

[frigid hound]

Boulder stacking

[ancient pecan]

albedo -> only 1 flower

so why have a separate global limit?

[red umbra]

C1 zhongli is kinda a waste after buffs

[brazen garden]

which turns into reset ceiling cuz fk practicing boulders for smth thats 1 hr per 2 weeks

[storm tulip]

to limit zhong

[red umbra]

C2 zhongli is a decent stopping point tho or c4 if you have homa

[storm tulip]

c1 zhong subdps is actually pretty nutty already even with just 1 construct if your comp has bennet, with gorou incoming it is gonna be even better

[reef stump]

Thats just such a funny flip, but true, thats definitely promoting ZL for him

[red umbra]

Probably a typo

[reef stump]

Itto casually eating 50% more dmg over night

[storm tulip]

especially if the character is ning cause you can just have everything on top of jade screen, for very easy overlaps

[red umbra]

Just realized Itto might be able to hit enemies inside venti ult

[storm tulip]

well itto still takes 55% less damage than your usual carry, this went down from 66% less

but it is still pretty busted

[red umbra]

Why can't we see his VA as yet

[storm tulip]

yeah, but if there is a character you use in the 4th slot that is anemo it is probably kazuha because he is just way easier to infuse from no element team

since you can use regular auras from enemies, or auras on yourself thanks to his Q being centered and his E

[red umbra]

From treasure hoarders environmental damage yep

[reef stump]

If it was 66% it should be 50% now if I see that correctly. He went from taking 80% dmg via RES to 120% Dmg via RES which is a 50% increase ind dmg taken.
Say a hit is 1k on a normal unit, 66% less is 333. 333 *1.5 = 500, which is 50%

[storm tulip]

nope 110%

res below 0 is halved

we have 0 at a base

[reef stump]

Ah, for us aswell

ok

Makes sense then

[red umbra]

Would 200.6% defence be good enough on itto?

[storm tulip]

depends on weapon you are using

[red umbra]

R5 whiteblind

[storm tulip]

are you not gonna use the new set?

[red umbra]

That might take months to farm while getting trash healer set so mostly no

Still farming emblem domain

[storm tulip]

then like for bollide 200% is fine

[red umbra]

Gladiator since I never farm geo domain
I just passively farm glad, wanderers and emblem domain

[storm tulip]

2 husk 2 petra is also around the same as bollide if you cast 2 ushis during Q just as a heads up

[red umbra]

Can't wait for Physical itto videos to pop up 1 day after release

[storm tulip]

with redhorn it is honestly pretty decent

especially with the most recent buffs

[reef stump]

Its at the very least more functional than for other elemental DPS

if you build for it

still very meme-y

[red umbra]

Itto powercreeps diluc so hard just with his continuous autos even after dashing

[brazen garden]

if Itto is applying geo at the same time as albedo in the one hit, whose EM is used to generate the crystallize shard?

[storm tulip]

well, itto always hits first because albedo's is triggered by damage

so itto's

but if aura still remains 2 crystals are generated

[jolly dragon]

is itto good on paper? on par with whom?

should i consider pulling him (i am pulling for albedo as guaranteed)

[ornate salmon]

decent on par with xinyan and noelle

ill be doing barbara dps calcs soon

[azure dagger]

he does more dmg than xiao single target in his burst but less than hutao

c0 R1 RS with just geo resonance is in ballpark of 400+K personal output

can reach 500K+ with high investment

goes to 7/800K with gorou c6

[opaque nimbus]

is he likely going to be better than hu tao?

[ornate salmon]

what situation?

[opaque nimbus]

mostly abyss

[ornate salmon]

im asking what situation

single target? aoe?

[opaque nimbus]

oh you mean single or aoe?

[ornate salmon]

cant speak for aoe

but for st hu tao is still better

[opaque nimbus]

ok

[ornate salmon]

his comps encourage you to go triple geo

while hu tao only needs xq

your pick

[opaque nimbus]

ok thanks

[onyx junco]

itto is obviouly better in aoe, because he has aoe

[patent galleon]

at this point i dont think Itto's dmg is really a concern, everything points towards it being solid/competitive. its probably a bigger question of playstyle and case use. we dont know how easy it will be to manage stacks and energy off paper, and ofc being Geo he can get cucked against certain enemies.

[ornate salmon]

there are characters who are good on paper but pretty ass to play and yet theyre still valued highly

[proud leaf]

unless both sides of abyss cucks 3geo teams I think he'll be fine

have people considered 2geo instead of 3geo btw?

at c6 gorou you lose 40% cdmg and 15% geo damage, but in return you can potentially get another resonance and a better off-fielder than zhongli/albedo

A well rolled Itto with the new claymore should have ~200%+ critdmg, so we're comparing 240%+ vs 280%+ which is still a decent damage increase, but nothing too crazy

[hexed ridge]

You can neither give up Albedo nor Gorou, if you care about doing good damage unfortunately.

Giving up C6 Gorou would mean losing ~400 flat Def, 25% Def, 15% Geo Damage, 40% crit damage as well as valuable geo particles. He‘s expected to increase Itto‘s and Albedo‘s DPS by around 40% in total, so if we account for his geo particles as well, you‘d lose out on 40%+ team DPS by removing him

Giving up Albedo is pretty rough too since his damage is going to be quite a bit higher than this patch and he‘s expected to contribute around 1/3 of the team‘s DPS, there‘s not really any sub DPS unit that could compete with that

[proud leaf]

huh

didnt expect albedo to offer that much

the new weapon + artifact really that strong?

gorou's E buffs only apply to the active unit

does albedo's E snapshot?

[hexed ridge]

It‘s mainly Gorou that is a really big increase for him, but it‘s also the weapon and the set that‘s contributing to around a ~100% increase in damage compared to this patch

[hexed ridge]

It does, yeah

[proud leaf]

oh okay that changes everything

lul

[azure dagger]

if you have <c6 gorou with only 2 geo members, losing his crunch passive is like an 8% dmg difference for itto

which is fine, but 3 geo will likely be optimal

cuz albedo is getting cracked

[hexed ridge]

I‘ve been thinking a lot about using Xinyan as the 4th slot, however even the thought of it makes me cringe a bit

[proud leaf]

still trying to decide if I want to roll c6 thomas first, else I'd cash in on the geo team because it sounds fun

i think fischl's the logical choice? easy crystals because of constant application, A4, itto also has pretty high attack speed

[azure dagger]

i was thinking fischl too altho it's sad that itto doesn't proc fischl c6 during his CA

[hexed ridge]

I don‘t think crystallize is viable anymore by itself, especially not with SS

[proud leaf]

SS?

[azure dagger]

serpent spine

[hexed ridge]

Serpent Spine

[proud leaf]

i mean, having a shield is still nice

[azure dagger]

depends if crystallize drops a tons of shields to refresh in practice

itto even with the resistance nerf is tankier than every character in the game

[hexed ridge]

Floor 12 mobs are just going to hit through crystallize with 1 hit and remove a SS stack I think

[proud leaf]

you need crystals for gorou c2

[hexed ridge]

125 EM crystallize shields on Itto are around half as tanky as well invested Diona shields on a normal character

[red umbra]

This is with ss? Or without

[hexed ridge]

and SS even with Diona isn‘t super easy

[azure dagger]

this is true, it's why im rolling for his weapon to save myself the inconvenience

[azure dagger]

without oops

was assuming RS

[proud leaf]

im assuming the new weapon

[azure dagger]

new weapon makes him even tankier

if you have RS on itto crystallize should be enough

[proud leaf]

but anyway the last slot needs to be either a healer or some way to get shields, right?

[azure dagger]

but zhongli might just be optimal as 4th slot if abyss allows 4 geo comp

[proud leaf]

perhaps

[hexed ridge]

I‘ll just copy paste my thoughts on Xinyan from another server here, I genuinely think she might work

[azure dagger]

if gorou keeps his constellation for healing you might not need another healer

[storm tulip]

With gorou c6 and new weapon you can expect 37-42k per e proc depending on artifact sub quality and zhong vs no zhong

[red umbra]

What about itto zl gorou bennett

[azure dagger]

christ

my albedo already can hit 18-19k can't wait for him to oneshot hilichurls after the new patch

[hexed ridge]

On Xinyan: Even after the nerfs to Itto‘s damage reduction during his ult, he still only went from -66% damage taken compared to an average character to -50% damage taken compared to an average character

He has access to crystallize and C4 Gorou healing already, so he‘ll only need a bit of additional defensive support to work I think

Xinyan‘s shield value in a team with Gorou is actually fairly decent as you get 25% + 400 Def for free. That means that even with a full Atk/Cdmg build, you‘ll shield for 6k at TL12 if you can get to ~1,5k Def. Due to Itto‘s high Def and him only taking 50% of the usual damage, the effective shield strength of Xinyan‘s shield goes up to 12k - basically even with a well invested Diona. And that‘s on top of crystallize/C4 Gorou

Additionally Xinyan ult is one of the best shield breakers in the entire game, it clears abyss mage shields pretty much instantly on cast. Her shield provides a pyro aura to proc crystallize and her shield uptime (12s duration/15s cd) fits Itto‘s rotation very well. The main issue Xinyan has in a geo team however is her high energy requirement and I‘m not sure how to solve that

[storm tulip]

Best part is that initial E cast now scales a bit from defense too

Just 1st hit after wont get the weapon buff

[proud leaf]

sounds like zhongli would be pretty cool too with this line of reasoning, his meteor has no energy issues especially with that 4geo team, and is also pretty good at breaking shields

other than the crystallize reason i guess

[azure dagger]

4 geo will entirely depend on abyss enemies

if abyss remains as bosses or ruins / fatui, 4 geo will wipe cake

if it's just one or two abyss mages, it would be doable too

heralds / lectors? gg

[proud leaf]

every team hates lectors and heralds

[azure dagger]

not ayaka

using her on heralds is so fun

[hexed ridge]

You can always just accept the big inflexibility that is 4 geo and just not use that team at all in circumstances where it doesn‘t work

[azure dagger]

just dash

[azure dagger]

yea this too

free bennett xq for your other team

[storm tulip]

Also are you guys sure about itto vs hu tao personal dps of hu tao single target being higher than itto's? Like for me it is around the same when they are fully buffed r1 redhorn vs r1 homa itto/albedo/gorou/zhong vs hu tao/xingqiu/albedo/zhong

Same amount of relevant substats on both

[azure dagger]

if their investment is the same personal dps output seems like hutao always wins w/ xq

[proud leaf]

think they use thoma + anemo?

[azure dagger]

for ST

[storm tulip]

Yeah with thoma + sucrose/kaz i can see it for sure

[azure dagger]

yea i wonder if thoma will be enough to make ppl play VV tao

[proud leaf]

for sure

[storm tulip]

Like hu tao comp would win in single target dps due to xingqiu but not due to difference between itto/hu tao from my calcs

[azure dagger]

i never calced him ive just been seeing a lot of doomposting about him so no idea how he is rn

[proud leaf]

thoma?

[storm tulip]

Thoma's personal dps isnt great but him enabling vv and sucroze/kaz is good

[proud leaf]

yea

[azure dagger]

yea thoma

[proud leaf]

never saw calcs but

his skill set is just made to allow players to break away from 2geo

[azure dagger]

hmm

[storm tulip]

Like no reactions and max procs c6 vs c6 he is slightly behind xiangling

But then xiangling has snapshot, no ICD, etc.

[tepid stream]

No ICD on xiangling was 100% a mistake

[storm tulip]

And thoma has animations that take dmg away from him

[azure dagger]

i redid some calcs and hutao is still doing like 20k more personal output during her uptime than c0 r1 itto

[proud leaf]

applies pyro for VV
provides shield so you can drop zhongli
provides pyro resonance
provides 15% NA/CA buff at c6

personally he sucks but as a hutao support I think he deserves a chef's kiss

[azure dagger]

true he's perfect for her

altho pyro res is whatever for hutao

[proud leaf]

yea

[storm tulip]

He also used to have the xingqiu shred on c2

And they removed it

I feel like that was a mistake

[proud leaf]

probably too strong

except you see gorou doing gorou things lmao

[storm tulip]

Well geo has no supports is the thing

So gorou is fine

[proud leaf]

They needed a weapon to match the benny gear

[azure dagger]

gorou's buff in total are actually quite ridiculous in a vacuum even comparing to bennett for def users

future def chara stonks up

[tepid stream]

tfw gorou is a better unit than the person he looks up to

[proud leaf]

itto teams really interest me tbh, its nice that we finally have an entirely new team skeleton to team build on

[storm tulip]

Yeah but 20k extra from what total

[azure dagger]

100%, geo mains always sounded appealing to me

[proud leaf]

personal damage though

[hexed ridge]

Itto teams are pretty exciting because it frees up every single important character in the game, meaning you have all the freedom in the world regarding your 2nd abyss team

[proud leaf]

xingqiu swords hit pretty hard

[tepid stream]

well so does albedo

[azure dagger]

like 500k for c0 r1 itto

oh shit

i forgot to give him gorou

lel

[tepid stream]

and you have a 4th slot considered for oz

[tepid stream]

[proud leaf]

welp

[tepid stream]

He was 20k behind hu tao without gorou?

[proud leaf]

so itto > hutao for aoe and st????

[storm tulip]

Around the same for singke target

[proud leaf]

and hutao has to be sub50%, counting vapes on her Q and hits?

[storm tulip]

Hu tao has better uptime

Once itto is c2 he wins even vs c2 hu tao

[proud leaf]

and the EM/dmg% buff from the kazuha/sucrose?

[azure dagger]

okay

[storm tulip]

My calcs were with albedo em and zhong +geo resonance

Not with vv suc/kaz/ thoma

[azure dagger]

gorou c6 + itto personal dmg output for itto is around like 40k better than hutao + xq

[storm tulip]

That comp wins ye

[proud leaf]

that comp also kinda hurts my brain to rotate on

[azure dagger]

total dmg output for itto sitting around 700k

[proud leaf]

geo unga bunga let's goooooo

[azure dagger]

hutao at 660k both at c0 r1

[proud leaf]

press button win game

who needs to think about skill order

[azure dagger]

no, i miscalced, the new number is correct

previously he should have been 160k less than hutao single target by himself alone

[storm tulip]

Yeah I think this is fine though cause vape/melt always have room for a lot more imrpovments

[tepid stream]

Now the calcs are clear, I wonder which hero is more consistent in maintaining their rotations average damage targets

[proud leaf]

what does that 660k use as assumptions

[storm tulip]

While itto will always be around this level

[proud leaf]

team, buffs, debuffs, etc

[tepid stream]

hu tao is considered more 'mechanical' but the extent of mechanical in genshin isn't a high bar

[azure dagger]

hutao c0 r1 homa lvl 90, T10 talents, + xq and geo resonance

[storm tulip]

Like c6 vs c6 with whaled supports hu tao wins no competition

[azure dagger]

lvl 100 enemies

8 n1C + burst

[tepid stream]

Even still matching up with her in ST is crazy

[proud leaf]

<50%?

[tepid stream]

HT is the single target queen

[azure dagger]

yes

she has around 3800 atk with the artifacts i gave her during T10 E

[proud leaf]

if it matches <50% then geo teams will really be better because they don't need to get low

[azure dagger]

pyro will always have higher ceilings tho

so i think this is appropriate

[tepid stream]

That's natural so yeah

[storm tulip]

For me it did ye, around the same considering hu tao at <50% also albedo usually steals 1 vape from her during rotation due to blood blossoms which I did not count

[proud leaf]

to be fair though

the calcs should be with a VV team

[tepid stream]

I wonder how team dps will compare, itto opens up a 4th pure damage sub dps which hu tao cant afford in most cases

[proud leaf]

since we're already in unreleased lands

[azure dagger]

itto and hutao personal dmg output being close should be good imo since hutao gets infusion through skill and has greater uptime at c0, and both are berserker types during infusion

[tepid stream]

Doesn't itto have higher uptime?

[azure dagger]

only at c2

[storm tulip]

I'm still not sure on that though, not only is it awkward rotation vv wont have full uptime, at least in my mind

[tepid stream]

11 vs 9

[azure dagger]

as in like rotations

[tepid stream]

Wait like that

Yeah

[azure dagger]

should have clarified

[azure dagger]

i calced for geo resonance tao since that's her most popular comp i believe

VV tao should do more dmg but idk by how much yet