Itto Thread

[supple sleet]

we dont know how much energy they make yet

😔

wish the next dps unit has their infusion on E instead of Q since it's been a hot minute since we last saw one of those on a new unit

...I completely forgot about Yoimiya's existence

[humble gate]

So like, I got zhongli and albedo and I have 180 pulls ready. Don't know if I should go for hu tao or wait for itto and get him + weapon (I assume every banner worth of time/events would give me a pity with welkin/bp). I use XL as pyro dps but I feel like I lack single target dps. Also I have a good shimenawa set ready for hutao so idk what to do xD (I guess I could get hutao + itto and use serpent spine on him?)

[reef stump]

R5 SS is a sidegrade to R1 Redhorn and even R1 SS is only 10ish% behind. So pulling R1 Redhorn isn't really worth it

[frigid hound]

https://twitter.com/dimbreath/status/1452764558939070464

Dim (@dimbreath)

C1: 2 stacks. After 1s 1 stack every 0.5s for 1.5s
C2: 6s => 4s CD, 24 => 18 Energy.
C4: After Q state ends, DEF for nearby party members +20%, ATK +20% for 10s. (NEW)
C6: CA DMG 50% -> 70%

Warrior's Burden passive removed.

Redhorn:

ATK: 44 (f542)
Crit DMG: 19% (88.2%)

Twitter · Oct 25, 2021, 10:30 PM

[supple sleet]

rip the no NA interrupt on dash

you will be missed

[frigid hound]

At the cost of giving mhy more money

U get ur qol passive removed

[gusty turret]

wtf.... i hope they're adding something new?

to replace it

[supple sleet]

probably not

[humble gate]

Oh really? I am looking around but haven't found anything relating to his weapon rankings

[supple sleet]

they did buff his auto damage so

[reef stump]

Units usually don't have a foruth Passive, so unlikely that he gets something in return

[supple sleet]

so far only Raiden/Kokomi

but their 4th passive ain't really anything big

[frigid hound]

Like those cons buff are unrelated to that passive

But its a really good QoL

Oh wait

[gusty turret]

i think they're trying to force

4 geo

with zl

[hasty quail]

lol they're really just making Itto worse and worse ain't they....

[frigid hound]

U cant do cancelling with it

[reef stump]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_Aoh92fw_5k5g9Zm-yx72wdGIz6BXtyYwLdkdi66ukQ/edit#gid=1684736596
I made a sheet comparing atleast R1 Redhorn, SS, WB and Sac. Investment is really high but should translate similarly to lower investment as long as the stats are properly balanced out.

[frigid hound]

Unless Im thinking of something else

[humble gate]

Thank you very much

[pearl bone]

they are just making Itto dumb and powerful like his lore

no more big brain rotation

[frigid hound]

Monke time

[reef stump]

Actually confusing rotation since you might end up with different Stacks between rotations as I realized they last 60s

[hasty quail]

This makes him less unga bunga though since you'll need to have a shield up or you'll need to focus on dodging

[reef stump]

If you don't want N4 its not the hugest deal, since N1-N3 generate 1 Stack all the same

and the time lost factor with dodging is always there

[pearl bone]

70%CD C6 + 88% Redhorn

[reef stump]

CR ascension, Crit Stick itto

The man has both ATK and Crit insanely inflated

[pearl bone]

210% base Crit Damage

lmao Itto

[frigid hound]

This makes u

[pearl bone]

CD circlet 270% base

[frigid hound]

Want to pull for atleast a c0 r1

[reef stump]

Gorou, 310

[pearl bone]

i actually like what MHY is doing

they go ham for once

[frigid hound]

But why did they just removed an unrelated passive

[reef stump]

His Stats are much more ham than his multipliers though

so it balances out

[silk patrol]

Redhorn is the new weapon right?

[reef stump]

yes

[frigid hound]

Yep

Hows this new redhorn on noelle?

[reef stump]

R1 Redhorn is similar R5 SS, should be the same story as for Itto

[pearl bone]

max stacks?

[reef stump]

max stacks, ofc

[pearl bone]

very nice Redhorn if max stacks

[frigid hound]

With the new stats

?

[reef stump]

yes

already accounted for the Buff

its like 1.5% ahead on Gorou buffed Itto now

[frigid hound]

It really good if u dont have r5 ss ready Ic

Itto is really lucky to hit the market on december

On 14 no less

[reef stump]

If you have SS in any capacity are not bothered to death by the Passive R1 Redhorn isn't really worth it

R1 SS is only about 10% behind

[pearl bone]

they are setting up Itto to be a wallet buster

[reef stump]

which is a small gap for a 5*

[frigid hound]

Mhy aiming for that christmas bonus budget

[humble gate]

I would use Zhongli with him so, better use R5 SS right?

[reef stump]

Itto feels a bit too baity for my style, even if he does look quite good overall

[frigid hound]

I have this feeling that they might just do that

[pearl bone]

Itto will look and feel really good to play for casual players

[reef stump]

With ZL the Stacks are so safe that you atleast don't have anything to gain by going for Redhorn

[pearl bone]

and Geo TCers/hardcore players will love him too

[reef stump]

I wonder about that, his Teams seem a bit needy of Albedo

[humble gate]

All right thanks, then I think I'll go for hutao + itto and make do with SS 🙂

[frigid hound]

Mhy doing a big brain

Reminding u thats its christmas

Even in game

During 2.3

[pearl bone]

u go all in on Geo with him, unless idk C2

[frigid hound]

So u pull for 2 5*

[pearl bone]

no it's the, C2 5* + R1 + C6 4* trick again

[reef stump]

Yeah and exactly bc of that I'm not sure how casual friendly he is with Geo not having the bets reputation. Effort to get his Team might be pretty high for the average player

[pearl bone]

and C6 is actually power spike unlike Raiden

[frigid hound]

• the albedo pull

[reef stump]

Itto C2 looks trash on its own ngl

[tribal osprey]

The claymore got a buff, nice

Raik did you do weapon comparisons?

[pearl bone]

im more thinking casuals that have rainbow comps, Itto will feel powerful played even that way with R1 Redhorn

[reef stump]

I have Calcs for SS; Redhorn, WB and Sac

[frigid hound]

Like a lot of casuals

Who want to try abyss

[tribal osprey]

Is redhorn actually significantly different from ss now?

[pearl bone]

not rly

[frigid hound]

Gets the 'just use raiden national'

[reef stump]

1.5% ahead of R5 SS, 10% for R1 SS on a Gorou buffed Itto

[frigid hound]

So i reckon the starter Mono geo on itto banner might be great

Since u can have 50% of his comp there

[pearl bone]

just go Albedo-less and ER sand

[frigid hound]

Since this thing eats to many valuable units

[humble gate]

That's counting gorou c6 though right?

[reef stump]

Yes but it doesn't look different for just Geo resonance either

Sheet has both

[humble gate]

Oh yeah I didn't notice sorry

[reef stump]

Only case where Redhorn can pull ahead is

if Itto doesn't use E for dmg

NA/SCA dmg is a bit higher for Redhorn, but E is so chunky that R5 SS benefitting E aswell makes it close the gap

[onyx junco]

losing that passive doesnt seem like a big deal to me, but i hope they put something better or give him something in exchange, because as of now they just nerfed whale itto xD

[reef stump]

I'll have a look later how it relates if E drops off the rotation

for SCA specifically R1 Redhorn is 5.3% ahead, so thats about as much as you can expect if E drops out

[jaunty junco]

I agree with this whole-heatedly

[ionic cape]

hello people, all i mention before became true

[reef stump]

indeed

[jaunty junco]

Anyway how much gain/loss is r1 SS to r5 Whiteblind?

[jaunty junco]

I don't know what you mentioned, Eru-chan

[pearl bone]

trust.eru.always

[jaunty junco]

I should be active in this thread more often to see Eru-chan's chats

[ionic cape]

[pearl bone]

Redhorn change is good, the passive was/is undertuned

with they could make it lower scaling but convert DEF into ATK instead of damage instance

they would sell more of it too

[hasty quail]

More Itto and Gorou buffs please

[reef stump]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_Aoh92fw_5k5g9Zm-yx72wdGIz6BXtyYwLdkdi66ukQ/edit#gid=244984103

For here also: Updated for the apparently happening second row of Redhorn Buffs

Now its 4.2% ahead of R5 SS, up to 10ish% if E is dropped from the rotation

[patent galleon]

They just want red horn to be good enough Over Ss for people to spend for it

[pearl bone]

that tbh

[reef stump]

Gonna look at R5 Redhorn now, refines should be very powerful

R1 to R5 Redhorn 16% with E and 20ish% w/o E

now in the sheet aswell

[pearl bone]

that's p good margin for R5

[onyx junco]

[muted arrow]

so here is the c2 adjustement lol

they just straight up nerfed it coz of the reduced burst cost and duration

[reef stump]

It was already looking bad though xD

[muted arrow]

yeah it was cool for the energy tho

now it's okayish ig

[reef stump]

The thing is he might already get by with around 130% so it'd be cool but not high value

[muted arrow]

it was great because most of the time when you do the final rotation in abyss you're not able to execute it fully before you kill all opponents, meaning you can't execute your particle gen recovery process fully either, so an instant automatic energy refund is pretty nice

[reef stump]

Its basically like Raiden C1, where it can have value if you play towards it, but can also be non-existant. I'd say it would be good for flexibility if it wasnt tied to Geo units on the team

[muted arrow]

aside from the pure general ER argument

[reef stump]

Its good QoL for sure

[hasty quail]

His c2 was never good tbh

It was bait just like Childes c1

[muted arrow]

well if you consider just the cd reduction sure

[hasty quail]

I wish his constellations were actual damage buffs instead of QoL

The c4 nerf esp is lol

[unique rover]

is the redhorn passive still flat or

[fickle lance]

yea

just higher now

[unique rover]

i c

[rare pendant]

itto and mostly redhorn got buff
well ayaka got many buff and nerf during beta
let's see if itto buff gonna stay

[onyx junco]

she didnt get nerfed iirc

[ocean island]

Did they change redhorn back to 88.2 crt dmg or smthn, what's going on

[unique rover]

yes

#834188530296946709 message

[misty idol]

hmmm

why are they keep buffing itto?

based on current calcs

isn't he already pretty decent?

what's the issue?

or are current calc being to idealistic

[pearl bone]

cos it's Merry Itto Christmas

[misty idol]

hmm

isn't his raw damage already on part with hutao without vap?

and next patch we get gorou, and bunch of albedo buffs

also his aoe seems pretty good

wonder what's the problem here

[onyx junco]

what buffs?

[misty idol]

some changes to cons and weapons

[pearl bone]

no problem and

this round of buff is out of reach for C0 anyway

Redhorn buff is minor but nice

they could buff Itto more and he will still be okay

[misty idol]

RH feels already kinda good on him

[pearl bone]

like someone said before, they buff Redhorn to make it slightly better than SS

[misty idol]

wonder if he will completely powercreep xiao

[pearl bone]

so people will pull it

[misty idol]

welp

i mean, tbh

to use ss, you need to bind to a zhongli instead of an albedo

which is still damage loss

i guess casuals don't see that

[onyx junco]

i know he had changes, wouldnt consider those buffs

[misty idol]

if you are c0, and not willing to pull weapons

yeah, probably

[onyx junco]

his former c4 was a lot better, the only thing that really got buffed was his weapon

[misty idol]

depends on your investment

crit is very nice for sure

but if you already have high crit, like whale level artifacts

the new one probably edges out a bit more damage

like those whale xiao's crits

90/260

or even higher cuz RH is bonker

[onyx junco]

yeah, in the second rotation, and at that point it shouldnt be necessary

[misty idol]

probably

but rn mhy seems to put more focus on c2

[pearl bone]

just get C6 Itto and C6 Gorou

easy 300% CD

[misty idol]

nah, gonna skip

don't like his stupid smile and muscle brain

but i do want to know about numbers

[pearl bone]

imagine having base 310% CD

[misty idol]

if he can powercreep xiao, then i can skip xiao in 2.4

and save for someone else in future

like, yae, or baizhu

kinda hope yae is the fixer for raiden not working with beidou issue

[smoky copper]

I HAVE RISEN FROM THE DUST TO GIVE GANYU A BIGGER BUST.

[misty idol]

really wish she is the off field dps, even it's unlikely

yeah, ganyu really needs some buff

[smoky copper]

Sorry, thought someone pinged me here

Carry on :)

[misty idol]

GANYU DEFINITELY NEEDS SOME MASSIVE BUFFS

[ionic cape]

@real phoenix how many frames is the difference based on your findings?

[real phoenix]

here's the blurry video

here's the whopperflower video

Slash 2 seems oddly fast, 3 seems to be alright, and Slash 5 seems strangely long

[ionic cape]

ill ask first pong/waffel if the itto version they use on the new vid is updated

[real phoenix]

in the blurry video slash 2 would be 28 frames long at 60fps compared to the 34, and slash 5 would be 46 frames at 60fps compared to 30/29, and slash 6 could be pardoned because it's the whole slash animation without going into the next one

in this new video there was something going on with the boss's hitbox i think? or whatever forcing itto to like zip around and reset his NA string which is why he did four N1s in a row

there was also an odd latency issue when switching to itto and itto only because it happens twice in the video where you can Hear the character switching sound being spammed when trying to switch from raiden to itto, and then itto just pops in and replaces raiden eventually

[ionic cape]

pong didnt reply yet probably in class

[real phoenix]

i figured out a mistake

Slash 2 is the only strange one

Slash 5 being so long was a mistake on my part because the video was so blurry i only counted 6 slashes in total when there was 7

[ionic cape]

my head huts when watching the vid

too many bugs

[real phoenix]

blurry video frames make more sense now, except for Slash 2

5 and 6 only look off because they have no hitlag

Slash 1 without the little teleport is only 15 frames

which also doesn't make any sense

[ionic cape]

pong say he doesnt know, and ask waffel

i cant speak russian

[pearl bone]

[ionic cape]

[sharp sinew]

Is Itto bad now?

And what did they replace the passive? It already sounds good

[atomic sundial]

you mean the deleted passive?

it got integrated in the normal attacks

[atomic sundial]

they just moved it up into the NA bracket instead of making it a passive

[sharp sinew]

Oh I thought they nuked it

What's the new passive now?

[atomic sundial]

no new passive

he has 3 passives now

just like Ayaka/Yoi etc

[cursive kestrel]

This is what I fucking hate

I was pretty sure I wasn't gonna go for R1 RH but now my dumbass looking at that 4% over R5 SS and I guess I'm considering it now

Felt nice not to want to go for a sig. weapon

[sharp sinew]

I want the sig weapon but no primos I'll just get Itto and make him use Serpent Spine

[velvet shore]

Is 4% REALLY worth it to u?

Tbh that still looks ass to me

[cursive kestrel]

yes cuz im an addict @velvet shore

I also just like the idea of a 88 CV weapon and it frees up SS and it looks good

But at that point I'm giving myself excuses

Also unconditional passive that doesn't rely on not getting hit or waiting 20 seconds. But again, giving myself excuses..

[pearl bone]

[rigid bay]

Wallet: "just pull the trigger bro, end my misery"

[patent galleon]

this would be the only reason id pull for Redhorn. SS is already being shared between so many of my claymore users, having another crit claymore to free up SS for someone else would be nice. but id wait to see what weapon its paired with first before even considering it

[misty idol]

so, any current estimation on how good itto will be?

I heard some say his team is balanced, but his own MV during her ult is around the same as noelle.

some say even his single target is higher than hutao

seems people's view about him is a bit extreme on two end

[ornate salmon]

itto = noelle and xinyan

[misty idol]

kit wise?

or are you talking about damage potential

[ornate salmon]

dmg

did you see my calcs?

[misty idol]

no, i haven't

i only used the damage calc sheet a few days ago

@ornate salmon https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MWhfZK6q4huo0DionfpQtvCuKTbJj-Qwvsz_Il1d3cU/edit#gid=0

this was the damage calc i saw

i think is before the changes this morning

[jaunty junco]

hold the fuck why does Itto Ult description say "decreases elemental and physical res by 20%"

[misty idol]

cuz it does?

[jaunty junco]

no but like

the old one said gains 20% elemental/physical res

so does that mean in the new version, itto will be frailer-?

[misty idol]

not sure which version you see

but even the first one i've seen is decrease

[jaunty junco]

i saw gains

holon

[red umbra]

Yeah he is gonna be fragile with 2k plus defence

[jaunty junco]

Ye but still

[jaunty junco]

old.

"Itto gains 20% Elemental and Physical Res."

"Itto's Elemental and Physical Res are decreased by 20%"

[misty idol]

probably just early translation error?

[lusty leaf]

hey i just wanted to pop in & ask: so itto's 4th passive was just removed and added to his normal attack description?

jk just scrolled up and got my question answered, my apologies!

[jaunty junco]

Wait. Tell me if I understood this correctly.

if Itto uses E or sprints mid Attack Sequence, Attack Sequence won't reset?

[real phoenix]

yes

[dapper bramble]

if itto defense conversion snapshot like noelle, isnt new def arti bad for them?

[ornate salmon]

thats why he doesnt snapshot

theyre killing snapshot

it'll come to older characters sooner or later

[dapper bramble]

oh he doesnt? is it confirmed?

[ornate salmon]

trust me

[dapper bramble]

👍 thats all i need

[hasty quail]

Really glad to see they just moved his old passive into his normal attack skill. Still wouldn't mind if they gave him his old c4 tho lol

[low valve]

oh thank god

i thought they scrapped it

[rare pendant]

is itto playstyle gonna be doing charge attack or it's dead passive like diluc ascension?

[unique rover]

Which ascension

I think he's a mix of na ca since he needs stacks from na

[rare pendant]

oh that's interesting

[unique rover]

CA is his main point, but ud need na to use ca

[hasty quail]

Same lol. Ended up just making it like Xiaos secret 4th passive which is fine

[ornate salmon]

dead just skip him

[ornate salmon]

kokomi is a better pull for you

[knotty lion]

Really copium that Itto's new passive is his old C4.

[strong escarp]

One question, itto recived a Buff or a Nerf?

[hasty quail]

C4 was a nerf to his personal damage. They moved his old passive to his autos so there's no big change in regards to that. His C2 is. Eh regardless

[azure dagger]

cmiiw, but c0 R1 RS itto is looking to output around 45000 DPS during his ult duration? im calcing it out to be around 495,912 dmg purely by himself, but with geo resonance, i put about average investment i.e. 20 subs

some rough math comparing how he does w/ gorou and bennett, vs. SS

looks like the newest buffs to RS makes it about 4.3% better than R5 SS, about 14% better than R1 SS

at equivalent investment as this itto, a xiao c0 R1 pjws with 10 plunges + N1C can output 545,753, or like 36000 dps; 12 plunges is 25500 dps

same investment, hutao c0 r1 homa seems to do ~520,518 output w/ 8 N1C vape burst, or around 57,800 DPS single target

to me it seems like C0 itto now is in line with liyue top 3?

or at least xiao / hutao

[storm tulip]

Claims like c2 being meh when we dont know his or gorou's energy generation are completely incorrect

Answer is we dont know how good c2 is

And if their energy gen is good it is at a bare minimum a 20% dps increase from 18 second rotation down to 15 (leeway ftom 14s cooldown)

[azure dagger]

also interesting to note is that gorou C6 with only E (no 25% DEF buff) is only like 1% better than a high-investment Bennett (lvl. 90, T12 burst, aquila favonia)

[ionic cape]

[azure dagger]

although gorou is comparatively easier to build since he isn't reliant on his weapon or his level for his buffs (besides talent levels)

[storm tulip]

Is that with 4pc noblesse, 4pc tenacity? Comparison vs both fairly sure gorou was higher when I calced that

[azure dagger]

bennett is using 4pc NO

gorou i did not include a supportive set

i didn't think 4pc NO was suitable since his burst is 20sec cd

btw the high investment bennett is also c5

so +3 levels and +20% atk

it's honestly mostly due to ushi

if you only use one ushi, then bennett falls behind by a lot more

[storm tulip]

4pc nobless3 on gorou is suitable enough due to lack of better options (only emblem is really relevant for gorou apart from 4pc noblesse or a 2 husk/2 petra(noblesse) combination for stats but gorou deals no dmg anyways and the set also doesnt have to be on him it can be on someone else on the team

[azure dagger]

yea i wasn't sure what his best artifact set was

itto's NA and CA dmg will still be higher with gorou

it's only ushi that gets a substantial increase w/ bennett

[pearl bone]

seems around the ballpark of calcs that have been done on Itto

not familiar with Xiao calcs, but Tao def can get higher than 500-600k range

[azure dagger]

yea for sure, hutao's ceiling is way higher and the average investment for Itto hurt her most in my calcs

[muted arrow]

yeah this

I'm really confused

it seems people just forgot it also gives energy

[pearl bone]

maybe it will enable him to go Albedo-less

open up his comps

although Albedo himself benefits alot from having Gorou

[azure dagger]

hard for me to imagine a better partner than albedo when you're already using gorou

yea

[storm tulip]

PSA: Albedo isnt even a good battery, he is just a great teammate because of gorou and can contribute to energy

[pearl bone]

Albedo is just everything Itto wants

[storm tulip]

Seriously albedo energy generation is on the low end of generation, on average it is 2 particles per 6 seconds, that is not good

[azure dagger]

i think geo also has a skewed perception rn because geo bursts are some of the lowest at 40

so i think ppl are too used to geo never running out of energy since 40 energy barely needs anything

[storm tulip]

No? He does nothing for him, he is just some extra off field damage that is also amazing with gorou

It is more so albedo/itto are what gorou wants

Than itto+albedo

[pearl bone]

the case for Albedo-less is someone who don't have Albedo in the first place and dont want to pull for Albedo but want to play/pull Itto

[pearl bone]

he's extra off-field damage, energy, benefits from Geo resonance and Gorou

just too much synergy

[storm tulip]

Yes, but he isnt synergistic with ittou is the thing

He is sybergistic with gorou

[pearl bone]

Itto can have synergy with other units, it's just Albedo is the obvious at the moment

I mean I haven't seen anyone calced Itto-Gorou-Fischl-Beidou for example

cos everyone already worries about Itto energy even with Albedo

[muted arrow]

also it'll take a while for people to get a good new set for both albedo and itto

months

[storm tulip]

Like zhongli is more synergy than albedo, cause he actually improves ittou's damage and itto has a construct so he improves zhong damage

Albedo/itto have no interaction whatsoever with each others kits until albedo is c6 or itto is c4, gorou is the lynchpin that makes the comp work there, saying albedo is what itto wants is incorrect, gorou is what itto wants and gorou wants itto/albedo/noelle

[muted arrow]

and zl's shield has good synergy with spine

[storm tulip]

Yup

[pearl bone]

im not convinced u will gain net dps when using ZL instead of Albedo tho

but at the same time, Albedo timing and dps is jank in my own Itto calc

[azure dagger]

does anyone know how much em boost from albedo + itto's high def will mean in ballpark shield strength from crystallize?

[muted arrow]

zl provides what, 100k dpr?

by himself

damage wise

[pearl bone]

not Albedo EM boost value to crystallize shield itself, but some people calced the effective HP of crystallize shield for Itto

after all the DEF boosts and extra resistances

[storm tulip]

Depends on team buffs

But his dps contribution is higher than albedo purely because of the shield yes

[muted arrow]

I'd say it depends on who the 4th member is because univesal res shred naturally favors another sub dps presence over bennett when you compare zl to albedo

[storm tulip]

Around 10k effective hp after Q nerf from 200 EM if 4pc tenacity is on the party

Zhong shield effective hp for itto from hp/geo/crit is around 60k at talent 10

[muted arrow]

well as long as they keep putting bosses in abyss I'd say zl has the advantage

[azure dagger]

are you able to share these numbers?

[azure dagger]

60k effective shield sounds insane?

[pearl bone]

no, I stopped my own calc a while ago, and the calc was scattered out in the TC channeled

[azure dagger]

i thought his cap was like 20k previously lol

[pearl bone]

havent even updated my calc with the buff to normals

just wanted to have a glimpse at Itto

a bit dissapointed with that buffs tbh, rather have them buff the kesagiris

[azure dagger]

if there's anything last i'd like them to add it's a multiplier for his kesagiris haha

[pearl bone]

before the buff Itto was a big brain character

cos his Kesagiris are the highest MV component in his ult rotation, normals are dps loss

now it doesnt matter that much anytmore

[red umbra]

Now Itto is caveman

[pearl bone]

matching his lore

[spiral frost]

true unga bunga

[storm tulip]

4pc tenacity, geo resonance can get you 27k and then itto has a shit ton of defense with gorou (around 2.2x tankier than other dps even after Q nerf) so effective hp for him is around the 57-60k

[red umbra]

HE EVEN HAS A CLUB IN ULT STANCE

[azure dagger]

wait sorry what Q nerf is this?

[red umbra]

Does Itto get poise on Q

[azure dagger]

i think he only gets it for his CA

[storm tulip]

He gained 20% phys and elemental resistance during Q now he loses 20% phys and elemental resistance during Q

[red umbra]

CA based Itto

[azure dagger]

!!!

tf

[red umbra]

And SCAs cost no stam at that

[azure dagger]

why tho LOL

[storm tulip]

They just balanced him because he was WAY too tanky

[azure dagger]

dam i didn't know you could get like 2.2x more tanky

with high def

[red umbra]

He's THAT tanky?

[pearl bone]

wait so this is not mistranslation

[storm tulip]

He was taking 1/3 of regular damage, now he is taking 45% of regular damage

[pearl bone]

he actually gets penalty during ult

[storm tulip]

He is still WAY more tanky than any other characters

[red umbra]

Oh also he scales with DEF so you really have to 90 the dude

[storm tulip]

Nope, this is also reflected in chinese

[red umbra]

Bennett tier base attack btw

[pearl bone]

okay, interesting

[storm tulip]

You can, but it scales logarithmically, so the more defense you stack it will matter less and less

But hey you can add xingqiu to the comp and cut damage received in half again

[muted arrow]

well of course it's not enough to make him fragile, but now crystallize is a bit more sus as a defensive tool to keep spine stacks up

[azure dagger]

hu tao is not amused

[red umbra]

Oh my god not XQ again

[storm tulip]

Yeah crystallize needs a good off field applier now like raiden, (hmm i wonder why raiden fits, almost as if mihoyo is pushing for the last slot in the comp to be raiden, weird right?), xiangling, beidou, etc. Someone who can deal some consistent elemental damage sustainabily with raiden being the best due to being able to carry 4pc tenacity and contributing to team energy if you want to ho off of crystallize

[storm tulip]

That was a joke, xingqiu does not synergize with itto at all

[red umbra]

Wait Raiden would kinda suck in an Itto comp, ulting with her seems clunky and the burst dmg is wasted

[azure dagger]

wait i thought raiden was bad for itto

[muted arrow]

lol unironically now NA spam might make more sense because it enables you to use xq?

[azure dagger]

as in like she's just worse than say fischl or zhongli in that team even with the ToM buff

[storm tulip]

You would just ult with her tikk energy is fulk then swap

[red umbra]

TOM RAIDEN KEK

[storm tulip]

She would be pure battery

[muted arrow]

NA spam doesn't seem to have the vertical aoe issue either

[storm tulip]

She is than zhong 100%, fischl kinda fischl is awkward to use with him still

[azure dagger]

her E burst dmg bonus is wasted on itto's team tho

itto doesn't get any dmg bonus and albedo and gorou have low dmg ults

[storm tulip]

Albedo has a very high damaging ult that is incorrect, it is just not reflected in the build he is using there

[azure dagger]

well, i mean, im assuming 90% of albedo users are going to end up using his new sword for him which doesn't really benefit his burst dmg

[storm tulip]

But the reason to use raiden

Is team energy

It is not to improve dmg numbers

But dps

[azure dagger]

plausible, i guess it'll depend on how reliably itto and gorou can get back energy

my thought was that fischl's energy would be enough will doing more dmg for their team / more crystallize procs

[storm tulip]

Fischl is single target, has a range limitation on a comp with no grouping cc (cant redeploy oz) and a lot of knockback, c6 only triggers on normals which itto wants to do but less than chargeds, and we dont know any kind of ICDs so fischl a4 might be very dead because I assume default ICD for everything itto does but ushi

[muted arrow]

A4 isn't even THAT strong anyway

it's a nice addition

[storm tulip]

No, a4 is why fischl is broken in sucrose/beidou/xingqiu comp

[azure dagger]

ah i forgot fischl c6 doesn't work on ca

[muted arrow]

I meant here for the geo comp

purely damage wise

[storm tulip]

It is AoE damage at no cooldown whenever you trigger a reaction

For example imagine a world where itto charged attacks have no ICD

Then fischl is REALLY good because of her A4

[patent galleon]

has anyone done frame counting on the newest video?

[storm tulip]

But in the real world where they almost definitely have regular ICD it will be meh

[dapper bramble]

what is actual dmg?

[unique rover]

accounts for lvl diff, res, etc i think

[azure dagger]

this ^

i assumed lvl 100 enemies for floor 12 abyss

so you'll do about half the dmg

i just wanna know now if c1 allows itto to squeeze in another N4CA4CAF at the end

[tepid stream]

45k DPS??? that seems unusually high

[azure dagger]

it might be because im only dividing it by 11 instead of more likely 14 lol

but i kept the condition the same for the other characters (dps dependent on skill or burst time)

45kDPS will be like 25K charged attacks and 20k normals

[storm tulip]

When fully buffed (c6 gorou, c5 bennet, zhongli) he outputs around 50k dps

And that is one Q per 20 seconds

Margin for error

Vs a lvl 90, 10% resistance enemy

[azure dagger]

what is your rotation?

if i remove the 2nd ushi from my rotation, itto c0 R1 with just geo resonance is still hitting 40k dps for me

[storm tulip]

This is with 2 ushis too

[proud leaf]

any tldr for the itto theorycrafting stuff? Saw someone above saying Itto should match a hutao dps? That sounds pretty strong, any caveats with that, etc?

[frigid hound]

Can I see the sheet?

[azure dagger]

with gorou C6 im reaching 64K dps O_O

[frigid hound]

Or atleast the calcs?

[storm tulip]

I'm calcing dps with downtime included and then some

[storm tulip]

One Q per 20 seconds

[azure dagger]

oh i see

lemme recalc with that

okay DPS over 20 seconds for my itto

25,000 DPS at R1 RS C0

35,000 DPS at R1 RS C0 w/ Gorou C6

so w/ bennett and zhongli i could see that reaching 50k

but idk if you'd run bennett in the team tbh

when you already have gorou

[storm tulip]

It is just meme territory yeah

But hey c6 r5 itto with c5 bennet c6 gorou and zhongli and whale artifacts can reach 100k per kesagiri slash with some whale comfort for anyone who is going to go that far

[rare pendant]

how important is albedo in itto comp?

[storm tulip]

Not important, one of the best teammates though because geo doesnt have a lot of good supports so having a subdps that cares about the same buffs your main dps does is good

[azure dagger]

hutao has a higher ceiling with investment but at around the same average investment for itto and hutao at C0 and R1 signature weapons, hutao vape total output is maybe 16.2% higher than itto with my calculations, but itto has AOE, greater tankiness, and in general his team comp should be more comfy than hutao's

[frigid hound]

[azure dagger]

i might be biased though bc rn im of the opinion that itto is at least xiao and eula level

[storm tulip]

What comp is that for hu tao, zhong/albedo/xingqiu ?

[azure dagger]

just hutao and xingqiu

[frigid hound]

Lol

[storm tulip]

Nah, he is definitely better than either of them in a c0 vs c0 comparison

Well, from sheet data

[azure dagger]

itto dmg is calculated without gorou for comparison, but with Geo resonance since i expect you'll have that

i also included geo resonance in hutao calculations

[storm tulip]

He is mainly gameplay based in what his powerlevel actually is

[frigid hound]

On practice it might be different

[tepid stream]

There's a character that can beat Eula in a sheet comparison?

[frigid hound]

C0 vs c0

[tepid stream]

Nah cuz

eula is spreadsheet queen

[frigid hound]

C0

[storm tulip]

C0 vs c0 there is a lot of them

[rare pendant]

as long as i can get around 300k per rotation in
like 15-20 crit roll i think itto is good enough for me

[frigid hound]

Literally its c0

Not c6

[tepid stream]

I am talking about C0

C0 Eula had the spreadsheet controversy lmao

[frigid hound]

Theres a lot of characters that would easily beat Eula

[tepid stream]

I am speaking in terms of spreadsheets not practicality

[frigid hound]

Show it then

[storm tulip]

You can get that with 0 crit rolls

[rare pendant]

welp itto is op please nerf
*insert clickbait tumbnail

[azure dagger]

maybe not 0 lol but 300k is very low for a 20 crit roll itto

you'd have to use sac greatsword or something

hurl that double ushi

[storm tulip]

Nah, literally 0 crit rolls with + 20 artifacts and geo resonance with r1 redhorn/r5 spine can reach 300k per rotation

[rare pendant]

20 crit roll is the most my sanity can handle while handling artifact farming
beyond that just rng cancer

[azure dagger]

20 crit rolls is p cracked imo haha

[tepid stream]

I'll dm, it's too controversial to post here

[frigid hound]

Nah dont bother

I know what ur about to dm lol

Just ignore that sheet if ur talking about the Zak's old dps sheet

[tepid stream]

[proud leaf]

How does c0 itto compare to c6 Noelle btw? Is there a damage increase and is worth it over the uptime flexibility Noelle offers?

Noelle probably has better aoe too actually

[azure dagger]

based on my calcs, with the same artifacts and R1 RS, c6, noelle's output is around 330K

while itto's is almost 500K

[proud leaf]

Includes downtime?

[azure dagger]

no

that is only during their bursts

[proud leaf]

Noelle's plus point is she can swap out at anytime too, and she basically has 100% uptime on her burst

[azure dagger]

noelle i have included her c4 and e talents as well

[storm tulip]

500k for itto is low unless that is him by himself

[azure dagger]

that is him by himself

only geo resonance

[storm tulip]

Yeah and he scales better with buffs than noelle does

[azure dagger]

noelle heal w/ R1 RS is like 1272 per hit

[storm tulip]

From my calcs itto does around 25% more dmg than noelle including downtimes

[tepid stream]

personal or including buffs?

[storm tulip]

Both with c0 gorou and zhongli shield

And obviously geo resonance

[proud leaf]

Noelle doesn't need zhongli though

[tepid stream]

does c6 gorou benefit itto or noelle more or is it the same

[azure dagger]

itto more

[tepid stream]

tbf neither does itto

[storm tulip]

She doesnt, she also does not have anything better to run though

[proud leaf]

Albedo

[storm tulip]

Like itto doesnt need zhongli either, he can sustain purely from crystallize very easily

[proud leaf]

Or Geo mc

[storm tulip]

Zhongli is just good for the whole team

[proud leaf]

Both solve energy issues

[storm tulip]

Albedo doesnt even begin to solve noelle's energy issues without some fav weapons on the team

Geo mc does

[tepid stream]

Does anyone have frame calc comparisons for ittos attack strings

I'm curious to see if his frames are faster or if my eyes are deceiving me

[storm tulip]

But gorou doesnt care about his weapon at all so he can run fav/sac bow for free in either comp

[azure dagger]

c0 itto will verifiably do more dmg than C6 noelle at the cost of fully healing a team and being able to switch / have 100% uptime seems to be the gist between the two

[proud leaf]

Don't quite agree with zhongli in itto teams too, you unironically get more damage and utility from Albedo

[storm tulip]

I dont have them anymore, but around 3 seconds for 5 CA combo and 2.5 for 4NA is what I got (not exactly these numbers obviously, just a fair enough rounding)

[tepid stream]

I wonder if that's faster than Eula's string

[storm tulip]

It is

Full eula string

Is 4 seconds

[tepid stream]

So he's now the fastest claymore character

[azure dagger]

thank god

i actually loved using razor when i was leveling cuz his attacks are fun for claymores

[storm tulip]

Fairly sure noelle is faster than eula too cause you can cancel the last hit quite early

[azure dagger]

noelle is resident sleeper for me

[tepid stream]

yeah using razor is fun

[storm tulip]

Yeah keqing mains has noelle na4 at 174 frames

[azure dagger]

damn that feels faster than when playing hahaha

[tepid stream]

how about itto na4 during ult vs razor na4 during ult

[azure dagger]

i think itto's is slightly slower but haven't really compared

then again razor's 4th na is so long

[tepid stream]

yeah i'm just excited for a claymore character that can attack quickly again lol

[azure dagger]

conceptually itto is like the perfect geo character

unga bunga clobber enemies with rock

[tepid stream]

we love to see it

[muted arrow]

I'm sorry, what better utility?

[azure dagger]

albedo crystallizes easier than zhongli since his aoe is so small

i wonder if itto's high DEF makes crystallize shields strong enough to just pick up and refresh as you go

[muted arrow]

I'm sure you have enough sources of geo to crystallize without albedo just fine

[storm tulip]

Yeah who cares about albedo then, your whole attack chain is geo dmg

The thing albedo provides is good subdps due to gorou and new weapon

[azure dagger]

inhales copium 125 EM is what makes or breaks albedo's utility

[muted arrow]

that's the only albedo utility

zl having a shield already trumps that utility by a mile

[azure dagger]

sorry i should have added /s haha

[muted arrow]

[azure dagger]

i unironically think 4 Geo w/ zhongli albedo gorou itto wont be that bad

i feel like lectors / heralds are the only true counters to geo

in terms of abyss meta

[muted arrow]

well

bosses pretty much stomp albedo's E

[azure dagger]

im hoping zhongli burst + itto NA will be enough to break through mages shields and whatnot

abyss rarely has bosses tho that can break albedo's e

[storm tulip]

It wont

It is his best comp besides bennet being in the mix

[muted arrow]

still think there is no way itto's CA doesn't get a buff if the NA spam is just as strong

it just makes no sense

[storm tulip]

It is not just as strong

CAs are faster and have a final hit

That is basically 2 hits

[muted arrow]

I think somebody calculated the chains here to have similar output, frames considered

[proud leaf]

albedo provides more damage, provides more energy, you dont need to force yourself to play around the pillars for energy, you're a 3 geo team and having a shield is probably the least of your concern, is what I meant by more utility

[storm tulip]

You basically get 6 hits in 3 seconds versus 4 hits in 2.5

[azure dagger]

wait is CA4 3 seconds or CA4 + CAF?

there's no current way for itto to go beyond a 5 stack CA sequence besides C6 and a possible ushi stack right?

[storm tulip]

Ca4+caf is 3 seconds

[storm tulip]

C1 does it too

[azure dagger]

you right

c1 looking yummy

[storm tulip]

They contribute around the same team dps

[proud leaf]

even with the new albedo weapon, artifact sets, and gorou buff?

[storm tulip]

Zhong's personal is lower but itto's and gorou' are higher and your 4th non geo char's is a LOT higher

Just that 4th character dps with zhong vs no zhong gets a 17% dps increase

[proud leaf]

what about energy

[storm tulip]

Energy zhong is worse if c0, better if c1 vs albedo

[proud leaf]

are we assuming zhongli + gorou is enough to battery itto at 0ER?

[tepid stream]

the c2 energy reduction is looking yummy too

[storm tulip]

With realistic eneregy generation for ittou and gorou not even albedo/zhong/gorou/itto is enough for 0 ER

This is with gorou holding fav/sac

[tepid stream]

but the amount of field time it requires for two c1 zhongli pillars...

[proud leaf]

yea still not sold on zhongli, sounds like too many caveats just to match albedo's set and forget E

[storm tulip]

Not a lot, you would have 1 first rotation, 2 on second or you can spend some extra field time, also albedo E snapshots everything so it is actually around the same field time cause albedo needs to recast E if using new set

And c2 zhong is even easier

[tepid stream]

I need to read how the new artifact set works

[storm tulip]

Cause you never actually hold E with c2

Also zhongli is always good where albedo is kinda useless in scenarios like current 12-3 for example

The geo aura shockwaves just destroy his E over and over

Kenki also destroys albedo E very easily

While zhong at a bare minimum has the shield to improve team dmg

They are both good in different spots, if you have all of them you can run them all together and have a great team

Only reason to not run all 4 is saving albedo/zhongli for your second team as a support

[proud leaf]

yea you have good points

[patent galleon]

thats the one long term issue i can see with albedo. if Itto really is hard dependent on a battery, then you may find annoying situations where you cant get his Q back reliably when dealing with albedos E constantly being destroyed by certain enemy line ups

[storm tulip]

Thing is, again

Albedo is not a good battery

He is really not, he helps

But he is not actually a good one

[low sable]

who's a good geo battery then?

[storm tulip]

Geo mc

[patent galleon]

something less vulnerable like Geo traveler with Fav sword or C2 ning with Fav codex

[storm tulip]

Ning, if she is c2

[low sable]

o

i only have c1 ning sadly

[storm tulip]

Yeah like deus said

[low sable]

if that's the case ig i'll build geo traveler

what about gorou? is he a good geo battery?

[patent galleon]

we dont know, but prob not

[storm tulip]

Dont do it yet

We dont know gorou/itto energy generation

[lethal shell]

with the recent changes to the weapon, how good is it now

[low sable]

still plans for now, idk if i'll pull for itto
it depends if there's a rerun character coming

[storm tulip]

All we know is that gorou can run favonius/sacrificial bow at no cost at all

Since gorou has no good bows for him

[rare pendant]

trying 100% uptime noelle is pain in the ass to do
im gladly play with some cooldown
and frontloading damage is good when you fight enemy with high immun animation like hypostasis

[storm tulip]

Well, he has the 5 star crit bows

But His dmg also isnt great

[patent galleon]

10 sec CD E, 80 energy burst. usually means the unit wont be a good battery by default. but yeah a Fav bow would help since gorou can just be a buffer bot

[storm tulip]

No, 10sec cooldown E usually just means 3 particles

[patent galleon]

3 particles isnt gonna be good to battery on a 10 sec skill

and sac wouldnt help since his E is meant to buff with a circle

[storm tulip]

It is fine with sac bow or fav bow on top

Which again are free rolls

[patent galleon]

Fav sure, not sure id use sac.

[storm tulip]

It makes no difference

I dont know what you mean with the circle thing sac bow just lets his 2nd E be buffed by the first E and then it works the same for other party members

[patent galleon]

well its not like his E is gonna do dmg regardless

[storm tulip]

It is not amazing but it is usable

Like 40k damage from 2 sac bow Es together

More if he is c6

[azure dagger]

4.3% better than R5 SS

14% better than R1

for specifically itto

i imagine it's also noelle's new bis

[storm tulip]

And that goes up if you ever attack with itto outside his Q

[storm tulip]

It is yes

[azure dagger]

R5SS will only yield higher dmg for ushi

[tepid stream]

can you actually squeeze in two ushis in one rotation

[azure dagger]

i think it should be possible

expecting hit lag to push hit burst to 14 seconds

[storm tulip]

Nah

[tepid stream]

animation + hit lag 14 seconds??

[storm tulip]

Hit lag will push it to 12.5 at most

3 seconds is way too long of an increase

[azure dagger]

really? from leaked videos of him it seems his burst can last at least 13 seconds

[tepid stream]

the duration starts right after his ult animation right?

[reef stump]

12.5 is Itto's baseline since his Q has 1.5s cast time

[tepid stream]

so maybe thats why

[reef stump]

So around 14s total is very plausible with hitlag extension

[storm tulip]

No, that is his field duration

[patent galleon]

him being a claymore user should make the hit lag longer than others no?

[storm tulip]

Not his burst duration

Cause you cant actually act in animation

So no use counting it

[reef stump]

It absolutely needs to be accounted for with regards to Buff Uptimes and rotation time

Just not the options for his personal combos within the time frame

[azure dagger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvNCCSVQa6E&t=45s

in this video he activates burst at 0:58

he attacks 15 CA until 1:08 cuz c6

burst ends at 1:12

[storm tulip]

Yes, but read the conversation and then come back with actual relevant point about it cause those are not relevant to the current discussion

2 ushi casts should be possible at a base during his Q if it is the first thing you do (and it should be)

[azure dagger]

given he's not attacking for 3-4 seconds at the very end i feel like 14 second burst should be doable

[storm tulip]

And his animation has no factor whatsoever in this cakculation

[azure dagger]

and therefore ushi at start of burst and at end seems reasonable

although what might be more likely to happen is ppl forget to use ushi cuz they spam CA until burst ends 😂

i also wonder if itto has xiao's energy limitation for E during burst

i assume not cuz xiao's e is balanced around c6 presumably

[storm tulip]

Yes, but burst animation only finishes going into 1min

So actual duration of the burst is 12.5 at most 13 seconds

[proud leaf]

Isn't that because of hitlag?

[reef stump]

If its just about fitting 2 Es, yeah its not relevant, especially not since he can fit 2 anyways.

[azure dagger]

i think you can see itto starts his burst at 0:59 and it ends at 1:12 so that's already 13 seconds

add in another 3-4 seconds of attacking and you might reach 14

[storm tulip]

Yes, it is, we are trying to figure out how much hit lag can impact it

[azure dagger]

average will probably be 12-13 seconds tho

[storm tulip]

I think this will be exact duration of his Q to be fair

Cause you do want to cast ushi twice

And no hit lag on that

[tepid stream]

thats gonna be a bummer

[azure dagger]

yea it's good his animation is p snappy

for ushi

[storm tulip]

Although if you time it correctly buff will only expire after ushi animation and damage is dealt so if you cast ushi on the last Q frame it is extended through its animation

[tepid stream]

pog itto can have additional 1100 MV during his rotation!!

[azure dagger]

i find it so funny when reddit ppl look at c4 or c6 changes and vilify mihoyo for nerfing inazuma characters

c4+ is irrelevant to 99.9% of players

[proud leaf]

they're just balancing for the increase in critdmg from the weapon's changes

[azure dagger]

love hate relationship w/ genshin community

watching new players play on youtube and stuff is fun

but man the takes you see on reddit

[storm tulip]

Not only that it is actually a buff and lets you explore other playstyles

With c2 exiting out of Q early isnt a huge deal and you can take advantage of that and with c6 his 2nd rotation onwards got stronger

[azure dagger]

how are the 2nd rotation onwards stronger? is it spillover from the 10 sec def/atk boost?

cuz i thought the 20% crit dmg increase didn't outweigh the crit rate loss but maybe not

[reef stump]

It will reach till his next Q, but not much. You still spend ~6s on a Support rotation, 15s on Q cast

So you're left with 2-3s of the C4 Buff on himself

Albedo could snapshot Itto's C4 which is neat I guess

[stoic wagon]

anyone know the general consesus of how much better redhorn will be than wb?

[vale pawn]

Wait, did they buff him again?

[reef stump]

If Itto's Q snapshots his DEF conversion however the 20% DEF would indeed be permanent

[stoic wagon]

it feel like its more of a 50/50 type of thing

some nerfs some buffs

[vale pawn]

Massively?

It's CD weapon

[stoic wagon]

well yes, of course

im not expecting a 2% difference

[vale pawn]

It's going to be amazing even if passive sucks

[reef stump]

They mostly just reaffirmed the datamined Buffs form last week, buffed Redhorn a bit more and changed some Cons

[vale pawn]

Just by the pure 88 CD

[stoic wagon]

i was just curious to see what the difference was

[lament hazel]

Is itto good

Just wondering

[vale pawn]

Itto is powecreeping Xiao now

[lament hazel]

Also i saw a video with him doing 38k dmg? Was that with artifacts?

Whats powercreeping?

Im sorry

[reef stump]

Depends on your definition of power creep

[vale pawn]

Come on

[stoic wagon]

just imagine diluc, and how he was probably a good dps at 1.0, but by 1.3 hu tao came and was way better, thats basically whats happening here

[lament hazel]

I still dont get it

[reef stump]

We can't compare Itto and Xiao AoE directly and if we jsut look at paper DPS Xiao only looks good in personal dmg but not in Team Dmg

[stoic wagon]

just a new unit comes and is better than the old

[lament hazel]

So you comparing characters?

Ahhh

[azure dagger]

powercreep is basically when new characters out-perform old ones to the point that the old ones struggle with new content

[lament hazel]

Okay

[azure dagger]

there's some nuances to the definition but it's the gist

xiao still benefits from greater AOE than itto

[proud leaf]

gotta wait for xiao rerun for them to release a new anemo 4star that supports xiao like gorou supports itto

[lament hazel]

Also i saw a video with him doing 38k dmg? Was that with artifacts?

[azure dagger]

and the possibility of getting a dedicated artifact BIS released for him and a dedicated 4* anemo buffer

[vale pawn]

Itto's AoE looks good enough for most content

[azure dagger]

that's definitely with artifacts lol

was that his CA?

[lament hazel]

Aint no way

With his ult on?

[vale pawn]

I'd rather have him have less radius for more DMG

[lament hazel]

Only 38k???

Just NA

Wait

[reef stump]

In my current Calcs Itto with C6 Gorou + Bennett beats non-collision Xiao with Bennett, TTDS and ZL shred. And Itto gets Albedo on top

[stoic wagon]

only? 38k is pretty good

its a long duration

[azure dagger]

agree, ushi should help his frontal aoe but xiao will probs still be the aoe king

[vale pawn]

What about 2 anemo 2 geo Xiao

[lament hazel]

Well its like 10k+ per hit

[reef stump]

Gets completely annihilated by Dugtrio before you even consider a 4th member

[lament hazel]

https://i.imgur.com/rUtheMn.mp4

Here

[stoic wagon]

oh yes the 120 fps to 2 fps vid

[azure dagger]

that's his CAF

38K is quite high

[lament hazel]

CAF?

nvm

[reef stump]

okay, maybe completely annihilated is an exaggeration but Itto's personal dmg is higher than non-collision Xiao there and Gorou buffed Albedo is miles ahead of non-gorou buffed Albedo

[azure dagger]

actually wait

38K is average

[lament hazel]

38k and C6

Bruh

[azure dagger]

is it c6?

[lament hazel]

Yup

[tepid stream]

You can do 38k without c6

[azure dagger]

hm, then 38k is low for c6

c0 R1 RS average investment Itto (~20 artifact rolls) should be doing 38k crits

[stoic wagon]

yes c6 10/13/13 talents, r5 redhorn

[tepid stream]

38k is pretty low

[azure dagger]

their artifacts have to be really bad then

[tepid stream]

In that case

[lament hazel]

Damn

[stoic wagon]

thats what i was thinking

[lament hazel]

Yeah the artifacts must be bad

Look at the hp

[stoic wagon]

i expected either no artis or really shit artis

[lament hazel]

Cant see it clearly

[azure dagger]

C6 Gorou + C0 Itto should lead to ballpark 66K CAF

[reef stump]

Really high investment C0 Itto can get 60k+ avg Finisher dmg

[azure dagger]

that's super high investment

[lament hazel]

Oh wow

What happens if i dont get redhorn?

[azure dagger]

you got SS?

[reef stump]

buffed though, unbuffed just with Geo Reso its 45k

[lament hazel]

Yes

R1 ss

[azure dagger]

use that

[stoic wagon]

^ what i was thinking, thats why i was wondering what his dmg with r5 wb compared to rs

[tepid stream]

I'm aiming fully buffed itto c2 40k SCA 80k CAF

[lament hazel]

Damn

[azure dagger]

that seems reasonable

[reef stump]

Unless you want to use both C6 Gorou and Bennett thats a very high bar to reach

[tepid stream]

With c6 gorou

No Bennett

It's super high investment

[fickle lance]

R5 redhorn?

[tepid stream]

R1

[lament hazel]

Do i need albedo to support itto?

[fickle lance]

Gonna be tough with no bennett

[reef stump]

Certainly higher investment than I use in my Calcs and those are already pushing it for non-whales

[azure dagger]

you don't need him it's just he fits in super well for the team comp

you're already using gorou and gorou gives everything albedo wants

[tepid stream]

I'm too obsessed with him to not go above and beyond investment

[fickle lance]

80k final ca might be easier to hit with r5 SS

[reef stump]

Redhorn gives higher CA dmg

[fickle lance]

Even the final?

[vale pawn]

Yeah, I thought that there will be large difference

[azure dagger]

yes

[reef stump]

Yeah, not a huge difference but Redhorn is ahead

[tepid stream]

Yeah that's counted as CA

[reef stump]

SS is only ahead with E dmg

[fickle lance]

Oh hmm my calcs had the opposite

Yea e dmg for sure

[reef stump]

Have you already incorporated the second row of Redhorn Buffs?

[fickle lance]

The 40%?

[tepid stream]

Society if redhorn had def to atk

[reef stump]

28/40, yeah

[fickle lance]

Ya

It could be the buffs im assuming tho

[lament hazel]

Okay thank you imma skip albedo now

[azure dagger]

based on my calcs Itto R1 RS final charged attack slam is 5% higher than R5 SS

[fickle lance]

I need to double check my calc later

[azure dagger]

if you already have zhongli or a built geo mc / ningguang they can slot in the team too

[lament hazel]

Yeah i dont have zhongli

Mf i lost 50/50 during his banner

[tepid stream]

How many SCA finishers are we expecting c0 vs c1

[reef stump]

2 in both scenarios

C1 gives you more Slashes, not finishers

[tepid stream]

dang I thought c1 could squeeze in a third

Yeah..

[reef stump]

I mean, perfect C6 rng has only 1 FInisher

Finisher is also not more efficent than a slash, roughly double dmg, roughly double animation time

[tepid stream]

The frames for those sca looked crazy fast at c6

[tepid stream]

Fair point

[reef stump]

30 frames/ 0.5s roughly for a slash at Max ATK SPD

with current counts

[azure dagger]

i think when itto gets chaining in c6 he is the fastest claymore user currently, even more than razor?

[reef stump]

Should be, yeah

[strong escarp]

Its better now itto C0?

I mean they have buff Itto C0?

[onyx junco]

i mean, xiangling powercreeps every pyro since release, but people didnt know

[onyx junco]

they only buffed his normal attacks and lowered the cost of his ult and his cooldown

[storm tulip]

Yeah it is the spillover

It is 2-3% stronger, but stronger

Unless bennet is in the mix, cause bennet always skews things in favor of crit/dmg% because of all the atk he gives

[storm tulip]

Not hu tao no

[strong escarp]

And they buff his weapon

[red umbra]

Does ittos consecutive keisagiri slashes hit faster than n1cd hutao?

Nvm looks like it does from the recent video

[inland dagger]

For a fair amount of people, yes

But then again, powercreep is not the term imo

[muted arrow]

yeah most people can't play hu tao that well

xiangling is considerably better in most cases

[patent galleon]

yeah id consider xiangling universally better

[red umbra]

i think u can say generally but not universally

universally is an extremely strong word particularly in this game

[reef stump]

If you're universally incapable of playing Hu Tao its true

[muted arrow]

let's say a lot of stars need to align for hu tao to be better

[reef stump]

STish and you need to have hands, the latter is pretty rare, yeah

[muted arrow]

well in general she has bothersome caveats whose negative impact is amplified by some time of opponents I'd say

in particular having to chase really hurts her imo

although I think if you have kazuha on the team you can overlook a lot of things

[reef stump]

Most of her caveats are skill related issues. So the degree of them is gonna vary on player skill. Unless we're talking really tight mechanical exploits a la Dragon Strike, I wouldn't call mechanical skill requirements a negative and reserve that for actuall itneraction problems that cannot be necessarily mended by playing better

[patent galleon]

i mean optimally alot of characters can be good or better* when played to perfection, but thats not always practical for all situations/people. tbh i think ease of use is something to consider, having a character who is good and yet effortless to play is also strong.

[muted arrow]

well I'm not saying perfect skill scenario should be ignored, but hu tao is kind of a spreadsheet queen just like eula

imo

although eula's issues are worse I think

[reef stump]

Spreadsheets in general suck pretty badly for practical unit evaluation. They are baby steps towards actual unit evaluation

[muted arrow]

I think they can be useful as a rough estimate, but there needs to be a distinction between characters who can realistically, consistently get close to those estimates in practice, and characters who can't

for example raiden hyper is something I'd consider really really consistent

although there is still some random factor like bennett's circle, which I think is really volatile as a buff for most characters who don't snapshot

[reef stump]

The thing is you don't even get to do the clean rotations most of the time, or the cleaner rotations aren't optimal most of the time. So the actual validity of your basic spreadsheet assumptions can be completely off the mark

[muted arrow]

yeah that

[reef stump]

I also compeltely ignore AoE mods, since they are so incredibly arbitrary that they might not apply to a single realistic scenario. You invite bias if you decide from the get go how much AoE a unit can do

[muted arrow]

I consider raiden hyper really consistent because the support rotation is extremely straight forward, and then you have a main dps rotation with a character who can't get staggered

[reef stump]

unless there is a mechanical cap on a units AoE ofc

[muted arrow]

and has some sort of auto tracking towards opponents with her attacks

[reef stump]

Rai/Kaz/Ben is an extremely consistent and flexible shell, yeah

[muted arrow]

yeah there aren't really opponents it's weak against

itto is also trending in that direction imo

[reef stump]

I'm sceptical bc Itto's window is so long and sustained

You can much more easily lose uptime

[muted arrow]

oh yeah it's basically like backloaded damage

[reef stump]

Not as bad as Eula but if Kenki teleports away half rot Itto's dmg is dead

[muted arrow]

yep

[reef stump]

Its an issue for a lot of teams

But the degree varies

and shorter bursty windows take less losses

[muted arrow]

yeah I consider xiangling's damage backloaded in the same fashion for example

[reef stump]

XL is a weird case bc so many rotations are designed around extended funneling

International's uptime DPS is amazing, but so much of it is voided by the 24s back end

I've seen that on a lot of PMA Abyss clears

[muted arrow]

yeah and immunity frames really hurt these teams whose output is spread throughout the whole rotation

teams with really strong frontloaded bursts work better in these cases imo

[reef stump]

Yep. So I always deduct some value mentally when I see very sustained DPS comps. A lot of Genshin fights are also too short.
Bursty Comps can usually gain mileage by ending a fight before their rotation is at an end amplifiying their advantage

The more rotations you have the less that matters

but if you end things in 2 rots

and say sustained and burst have the same overall dps

The bursty one might end the chamber in 30s

the sustained in 35-40s

[red umbra]

yeah i actually think that like

skill requirements are important

but what's more important is margin for error

in a rotation

if that makes sense

like how well can a comp perform when u have a number of factors that would derail optimal play

[muted arrow]

there is also a tactical argument. For example the elemental shields given by the floor's aura every 15 second, since they have some sort of icd and don't apply twice in a row on the same opponents, in current 12-1 killing the first wave of samurai quickly, before the shield applied on them, so you can take advantage of the icd against the tougher pyro agents has been really helpful

[reef stump]

How important skill is depends on the Team, but rotation feasability is ofc the frame you play in and if your rotation jsut isn't executable your skill won't solve that, yeah

[red umbra]

flexibility in rotations has been hugely important in recent abysses i've found

there's lot of shit to play round

phases iframes auras

multiwave content

[reef stump]

Either flexibility or fast rotations

[red umbra]

yea

[reef stump]

So you can cycle fast enough

[red umbra]

fast rotations basically negate the need for flexibility

[reef stump]

primary reason I don't buy into dual carry comps and rather look for shorter rotation options

[muted arrow]

I think more times than not if you don't synergize well with either kazuha or venti you're already a step behind in terms of flexibility, realistically

[red umbra]

dual carry comps are a purely multi wave and high investment thing

[reef stump]

I'd also rather get C1 Childe and 200% ER on XL and run 20s International over 24s with less ER if that was my staple go to comp

[muted arrow]

for example the geo comp has basically no cc whatsoever

[red umbra]

yeahh

[storm tulip]

This is factually incorrect

You can look at abyss data

And see how hu tao comps perform way better than any others

[red umbra]

sigh

[storm tulip]

Except c6 sara/raiden comps

[red umbra]

i really thought we were past the era where ppl thought abyss usage rates were a good way to assess units

[storm tulip]

If hu tao was worse than xiangling she would be worse

[alpine crown]

where is this abyss data?

[storm tulip]

In fact in terms of clear times yoimiya competes with other amazing characters despite her dps being way lower due to how easy she is to play

[storm tulip]

There is boss a chinese and global website that collects abyss data you can look at both and they both agree with each other