Spell access changes

[unkempt imp]

I'm thinking it may be best to only restrict by school and do away with "categories" entirely. Then we can make some more meaningful changes like only having classes access to Holy which can traditionally easily access healing in DnD like Cleric, Paladin, Druid or Bard. Similarly maybe giving Bards exclusive access to the sound school.

The main concern would be balance (is a caster without access to heal totally unplayable, even post durability patch?) and any progression considerations (Does class-locking the sound school brick Familiars progression?)

Or we could even create individual spell lists by class, if that's the route we go then we'd just need to find a different way to display it during class selection.

@granite cairn @snow star @warm violet

Thoughts?

[snow star]

This reminds me of the feat bit in suggestion I made.

And something else I was writing up and refining. A melee overhaul. One idea for that was to limit, for example, Way of Four Elements Monk to 4 specific spells within each school of element they'd have access to, such as: Fire, Aqua, Ice/Lightning(Wind) and Geo(Earth). Which is more accurate to how Way of Four Elements Monk is like.

As for healing spells becoming less accessible, that is mostly a problem due to Life-Mending being a thing and Mending being an exclusive for Artificer. While it makes sense for Artificer to have that exclusive, I think a unique feature of Artificer, like, whatever Artificer crafts of Weapon/Armor depending on subclass, gets a +x% bonus to damage, armor, toughness, etc.

As for individual spell lists for every class, I think it would depend on the subclass, such as EK & Way of Four Elements.

[unkempt imp]

Something almost exactly like that change to artificer is planned!

To be honest, life-mending was also planned to be artificer-exclusive, but it was too brutal to have zero workarounds to repair gear.

[snow star]

That is honestly an issue of MC itself. Since its way of repairing forces you to make use of the EXP system if you want to keep your enchants.

[unkempt imp]

the plan is:

• durability only gets lost on death
• add some NPC way to repair items for no enchantment penalty (or just make this change to anvils)
• move life-mending to artificer exclusive, and give them the above gear buffs since mending in general becomes a wee bit useless

[snow star]

Perhaps an expensive craftable item that lets you repair your items. Durability loss only being on death would be a good idea, because stat monsters like T5 Dragons, eats your durability.

If I didn't have Life-Mending 3 on my helmet, I'd have lost it 8 times over in 1 fight. That was with Unbreaking 6 on it.

Casters would still have access to things like Hydra Heart, Potions of Regen, the Healing flasks & etc. With life-mending not being in the picture, I don't think healing spells will be as much of a must have as they are currently. Without the need for caring about durability as much, healing wouldn't be on as much demand. Since if you are solely making use of regen or items to heal your durability, you can sit there for a few minutes or 10s of minutes dependent on the durability you need to recover. While with a single healing circle or two, that gets taken to full in nearly an instant, throw in a few heals & greater heals and that is that taken care of.

[warm violet]

As for change, each class needs at least 3 classes spells access + make counterspell classless then (for you know who) - just in case if ppl decide to play sp so they won't be locked out

[warm violet]

Or we could even create individual spell lists by class, if that's the route we go then we'd just need to find a different way to display it during class selection.
As for this part, if it were to go with DnD route - then it would be feasible to have some doc or just long list of messages for what each class can do, what each class can cast in discord , and pin it - in idea of like "Player's Handbook"
When you make your character in DnD without looking stuff up you won't know what things you have acess to and whatnot soo
Tho then another huge problem comes where that would force players to join discord to see this "Handbook" which is can of worms..

[snow star]

Could make the "Player's handbook" an actual book that players start with. One that matches their class if anything. Could also be a FTB Ques

Personally, I think it should depend on the class & subclass, the quantity of spells you should have access to.

Say Clerics & Paladins, shouldn't have more than 2 dependent on subclass.
With Holy nearly always being one of them.

I believe that feats are what should allow build freedom.

While classes like Wizard should have access to 1 dependent on subclass & then two of choice if possible.

Warlocks I believe should be limited to Ender & Eldritch, other than if their subclass fits something else more.

Sorcerer should be dependent on their subclass, what they get.

Say Draconic Sorcerer would depend on their Draconic Bloodline, which taking into consideration the type of Dragons there are in Otherworld: Fire, Ice, Lightning or Ender.

Though something I believe that needs to exist, is a feat that allows spellcasters to ignore immunity to their spellschool. Too much is immune to poison or fire.

[warm violet]

you need to have at least 3 spell schools for questline reasons

[snow star]

I mean, isn't really stopping some melees for having no spell access.

Though what is it you need 3 spell schools for in questlines?

[warm violet]

||Night Warden, he becomes immune to damage types if you fight him with that type too much. Hence why I said that everyone should have acess to counterspell too, cuz it is kinda required for the fight||

[warm violet]

a major advantage of not being one shot

[snow star]

Scrolls are a thing. Overall, this is another reason why I think feats need a rework. iirc, DnD have feats like: Bypass x immunity with this element.
Can he become immune to melee damage?

[warm violet]

yes

I am pretty certain he did in our fight

[snow star]

So we quite literally need feats that grants us the ability to ignore immunity to damage

[warm violet]

I know @old shoal did fight against him too, they could share some insight from their sight

[snow star]

Because, I don't think classes should be based around that one guy.

[warm violet]

I doubt if that is an option tho

[old shoal]

[snow star]

It depends on how Nightwarden's immunity is written.

Another reason for ignore immunity if possible, is that so many bosses are immune to fire

Ignore Immunity feat would allow players to play as the spell school they'd want. Fitting into the class fantasy.

[old shoal]

[snow star]

or something likely easier to do than immunity bypass, is:
Whenever you do X damage, you also do Y & Z damage.

or making a damage type counted as multiple different ones.

[warm violet]

I agree to this idea more

[snow star]

Has the same effect, but should be easier. to do.

[snow star]

Something I think could encourage folks to use their respective class spells, i.e: Holy for Paladin/Cleric or for Warlock, Eldritch/Ender or whatever they would have limited access to.
Is to give the class' a spell buff in those specific schools. Say Paladin/Cleric only having access to Holy, then it would be something like +60% Holy Spell Power, if they have access to Lightning & Holy, like a Tempest Domain, then it would be +45% Holy & Lightning.
Then if its something with 3 spell access from the start, +30% to each, and if 4, +15% and if 5 at start, then no buff.

This would encourage casters to keep using their specific spell school that they start out with. In the sense of balance, I don't know the impact of those numbers,but I do know Tempest Domain cleric already got that +50% to Lightning/Thunder

[unkempt imp]

Anything is an option

I like the idea

[unkempt imp]

Regarding this, my main concern with additive buffs like this rather than restrictive changes is just multipliers getting generally too out of control in late game scaling.

On that note, we could just as well do a negative modifier for non-affinity schools. So you gain full power or maybe a small boost in one school, 90% effectiveness in a few others, etc.

[snow star]

Could do much smaller buffs as well.
Like +10% to affinity and -10% to non-affinity schools.
+10%/-10% won't make or break anything.

I can see how +60% could though, I don't know how high the current dmg goes, but staves themself, with their +25% gems, do prove it can get out of hand.

The affinity buffs, is moreso to encourage the usage of the spell school you start out with. So even if you do gain access to others later on, your main school will still be the one with that lil extra oomph.

Something else to consider, if spellcasters get a spell buff to their class feature, what do melee gain or the hybrids gain?

Hybrids, like Paladins, Eldritch Knight Fighter, Arcane Trickster Rogue, College of Sword Bard, and whatever other hybrids there might be. Perhaps giving them half-affinities, like +5% spell -5% spell and +x dmg/attack speed/armor pierce

[granite cairn]

Why bother with durability anyways

It's not core

[snow star]

Doesn't pop up much in DnD either.

But what about all the resource gathering you have in MC? Mining, digging, tree cutting, that doesn't pop up much in DnD either.

[unkempt imp]

Yeah that's a good point, the durability change will only apply to armor and weapons, not tools

[granite cairn]

I mean why not just remove durability entirely

[unkempt imp]

Durability on death is nice because it simultaneously prevents dying 100 times to cheese a boss

[granite cairn]

Whatever happened to the mod that reset bosses after a couple of deaths?

[unkempt imp]

well I totally forgot about that of course

[granite cairn]

"laugh

[unkempt imp]

it's currently not configured to do anything

[granite cairn]

fuck

😂

[snow star]

What about with items that use durability differently, like warp stones or create backtanks ?
Perhaps it would be best to keep it to just weapons, shields & armor, along with accessories like the valoria ones.

and canteens too, also have 'durability'

[warm violet]

canteens don't have durability, they have fill level tho?

[snow star]

Don't they use the durability bar?

[warm violet]

maybe, prob could check that wtih advanced tooltips

[snow star]

Doesn't seem like its durability. idk, just think it shouldn't effect tools of any kind, just kept to combat-related gear.

[granite cairn]

Yeah I really just mean actual durability

[unkempt imp]

yeah, to be clear the change is only to weapons and armor

i hadn't considered accessories, probably won't make the change to them

[snow star]

Theres some accessories that can break & will break quite easily. Valoria ones for example, only take mending.

[unkempt imp]

even rings and necklaces have durability, that's pretty odd

will probably apply to those too then

[snow star]

There is that belt which add a charm, also have durability

Just all Valoria stuff got durability & you can't put Life-Mending on any of it

[warm violet]

@unkempt imp also remember when you mentioned that +4 on staffs shouldn't be and you gonna make it +2?
Any plans to make staffs not work in offhand/be made 1 handed

because I have to test but it seems rn you can get both main and offhand staff + lvls

so rn it would be ... +8 to 3 classes/+4 to 6 classes

[unkempt imp]

that doesn't seem right, iirc staffs should only apply their affixes in the mainhand

will double check that

[warm violet]

without 2 staves +2 rings VS with
yup, staves in offhand adds + to spells

[warm violet]

nerf pls

[vagrant kayak]

decompiled the code

⁨```
@SubscribeEvent
public void hookSpellLevelAffix(ModifySpellLevelEvent event) {
if (event.getEntity() == null) {
return;
}
SchoolType school = event.getSpell().getSchoolType();
int totalBonus = StreamSupport.stream(event.getEntity().m_20158_().spliterator(), false)
.flatMap(stack -> StreamSupport.stream(AffixHelper.streamAffixes((ItemStack)stack).spliterator(), false))
.filter(inst -> {
SpellLevelAffix affix;
Object patt5189$temp = inst.affix().get();
return patt5189$temp instanceof SpellLevelAffix && (affix = (SpellLevelAffix)((Object)((Object)patt5189$temp))).getSchool() == school;
})
.mapToInt(inst -> ((SpellLevelAffix)((Object)((Object)inst.affix().get()))).getBonusLevel((LootRarity)inst.rarity().get(), inst.level()))
.sum();
if (totalBonus > 0) {
event.addLevels(totalBonus);
}
}

searched for spelllevelaffix, got this
looking at forge 1.20.1 mappings, m_20158 is getallslots? since that's the case, .sum(); should be the culprit ![nerdcat](https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1176520009250512916.webp?size=128 "nerdcat") or i dunno, i can't read decompiled stuff

apologies if decompiling code is rude, just curious to see what is causing the issue

[unkempt imp]

well it's just public lol https://github.com/muon-rw/OtherworldApoth/blob/8fbfd70a651b3a54215783dab2c097c5c1d6ab9b/src/main/java/dev/muon/otherworldapoth/affix/AffixEvents.java#L103

anyway yeah, the problem is I was assuming in this that affixes would only be valid if they're in their loot category's registered equipment slot, and Staffs are registered only for MAINHAND

[vagrant kayak]

ah it wasn't linked in curseforge, so I thought it was private

[unkempt imp]

but i think I need to check this explicitly

[vagrant kayak]

but yeah I think its reading every armor slot, mainhand and offhand

[unkempt imp]

it does definitely, yes.

[snow star]

Its specifically just affix stats from reforging, that works.

Like +spell or -% mana cost

The other things don't get carried over onto statsheet

[unkempt imp]

that's good, i assume apotheosis implemented the check for "is this actually in the correct slot registered for the loot category" within the attribute affix itself

[vagrant kayak]

a quick fix would be .max().orElse(0) if that works, but if we ever get any armor pieces that give spell lvls, that would not be future proof at all, but the other stuff like CDR or elemental damage would still work anyway, not sure if that's an issue

[unkempt imp]

yeah, it's explicitly checking getAllSlots instead of just MAINHAND exactly for the case of armors

[vagrant kayak]

[unkempt imp]

just made a bad assumption that apotheosis would automatically return empty for ⁨getAffixes⁩ on an item if it wasn't in its lootcategory's registered equipment slot

still an easy fix though

[vagrant kayak]

indeed

[warm violet]

@unkempt imp can you change this quest (as I think it is this quest) to mention and require Excursis to be completed? cuz there's been for sure more than one incident where ppl would go like this and be like "We done the quests but we have not obtained Excursis"

cuz idk if this is clear enuf for most of the people

[unkempt imp]

I was actually just thinking today that I needed to make this more clear

thanks for the reminder

[warm violet]

@unkempt imp

Mages should be blacklisted from spawners too

[unkempt imp]

they are yeah

thanks!

[weary hemlock]

https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/irons-spells-n-spellbooks-dynamic-skill-trees @unkempt imp

2nd and 3rd tree limit spell choice

but thats later, not from start

also it doesnt work like it should with your pack bcs they're not configed but might work?

[unkempt imp]

will probably do this: https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/irons-spells-n-spellbooks-restrictions/gallery

eldritch-style unlocking

[unkempt imp]

or each class only gets 1-3 schools and you can get a few more through feats

still undecided

[warm violet]

eldritch spell unlocking is goat, tho uhh uhhhhh
one thing that may be of issue is scarcity of ancient cities and that you can't reset them

[unkempt imp]

the manuscripts will have different recipes

[warm violet]

Muon have you considered allowing reset for ancient cities

[unkempt imp]

for each school

oh

sure why not

[warm violet]

cuz like, sure, other schools may be fine

but eldritch - a lot of spells needs a lot of manuscripts

and having in mind no lootr/no reset it becomes harder and harder

[unkempt imp]

i think they're meant to be resettable, but some mod is replacing the city :p

[warm violet]

yeah

[unkempt imp]

can you /structureessentials getStructuresNearby in one and send the id

[warm violet]

so ig same would be as with the uhh, fortress

[warm violet]

sec

well 2 min

[unkempt imp]

i don't know if the fortress will reset well, it's very strangely coded

can try it though

[warm violet]

nah I meant the fact that we have yung's fortress

even tho it's like a structure

so I would except it to be reset but it prob couldn't cuz mod changes it

[weary hemlock]

maybe kinda same as the runes? nature rotten potato etc etc

[unkempt imp]

well some structures do funky shit when you try to regenerate them on top of themselves, that's what i mean

like villages will just shift everything one block up

repeatedly

i have a feeling the fortress will stack stilts upon itself

[weary hemlock]

this one misses the extra stuff, t.o and gtbc

[unkempt imp]

currently the manuscripts all just require a "fragment" (half of a spell scroll) and the spell school's focus

but tbh, this doesn't really solve the problem of people eventually getting too many spell schools. still need something class based

[weary hemlock]

expand origins maybe?

school as feat?

[warm violet]

that seems like uhh

wizard type thing

[weary hemlock]

subclass?

[warm violet]

I wonder if it would be possible to do it like feats screen

all wizards starts with one based on their subclass and then you get 1-2 bonus as you level up alongside feats

[weary hemlock]

2 schools and eldritch maybe?

[warm violet]

@unkempt imp

[unkempt imp]

could definitely just have it like
"you can learn holy spells and 1 other school of your choice. you unlock an additional school at level 15" or whatever

[unkempt imp]

uhh

is minecraft:ancient_city in the otherworld config?

[warm violet]

this?

[unkempt imp]

yeah

it is not

literally should just work if you add it to that bottom list

[warm violet]

allowed namespaces or additional

[unkempt imp]

additional

namespaces would be all minecraft structures which would be disastrous

don't forget the comma!

[warm violet]

I am silly

but not that silly

ok imma reloading game

[unkempt imp]

i don't know if you even need to reload

[warm violet]

too late

[weary hemlock]

start with 1, add 1 at 8, add one at 12?

[warm violet]

[unkempt imp]

does everything get placed in the right position

like break a chest and it appears in the exact same spot

[warm violet]

trying with chest rn

loot did "reroll" in chest after reset

(I am using challenger orb as u can see)

okay, chest did reset in proper place too

did try in other areas, with like other blocks

resets too

so all fine and dandy

[unkempt imp]

cool beans

[vagrant kayak]

no more stacking 50 buffs of different school

[weary hemlock]

like it should lol, dnd also doesnt work like that

[vagrant kayak]

[warm violet]

just uhh add marriage for extra armor points

[unkempt imp]

otherworld v8 is getting goonerbait husbando companion npc

officially confirmed

[weary hemlock]

the whut

[warm violet]

Astarion

Karlach

Bear

[snow star]

'Bear'

[warm violet]

Tentacle Emperor

wait

can we romance Tentacle Emperor in bg3

[snow star]

Mind flayer whose name is Emperor

[snow star]

We can bang him, so ye, I'd say so

[warm violet]

okay

real gooner moment

also how you know that

how you know that, so fast

[snow star]

Played BG3 since release?

[warm violet]

I am concerned for what you have seen

[snow star]

Its a funny moment, your whole group even walks in on it.

[warm violet]

MOM I'M PLAYING MINECRAFT GET OUTTA HERE

[snow star]

I don't have the achievement myself. Though it is the most: Get bamboozled romance of the game, if you know, you know.

[night ermine]

@unkempt imp Hello! I've been told to ping you about this

So, I went to creative to test something. Mainly "What does the game considered summons to be", and so i started with Beastmaster Ranger who has access to all nature spells as well as support spells
So.. This led to my confusion, and i think you'll be confused too

Apparently, raise dead in spite of probably being an offensive spell as the undead do instantly aggro monsters when they're near, they seem to be considered a support spell? And magnetron deployment, which is also a summon spell.. Isn't, as it probably should be

Other summon spells like Desert Dwellers or Solar Chorus are access restricted for them too

I checked with the other ranger subclasses, since they're so very conveniently divided into Offensive, Defensive and Support, and Raise dead seems to clasify as both support and offense

[unkempt imp]

Yeah summon spells are in a bit of a weird place. I think I could see a case for putting them all as offensive+support for now (you can actually make this change yourself in the otherworldorigins-common.toml config)

At some point, probably v6 or v7, we'll be moving to a different system of spell classification anyway

[night ermine]

nice, nice

i did see you mention that. I'm looking forward to the changes ❤️

[warm violet]

I remember mentions of bluffs

@gloomy hare could you add them to the list of spawner things

the disabled to use in spawners

[gloomy hare]

bluffs? That's tricky cause they naturally come in spawners

[warm violet]

is it possible to disable their eggs?

or nah

[gloomy hare]

Yeah that's possible

[warm violet]

hm

tho I will try to test today ig, if crash occurs if you upgrade bluff spawner

[warm violet]