#Modpack: Prominence-hasturian-era Suggestion: R...

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tight lodgeBOT
pallid sierra
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gauntlet? maybe
obsidilith? bad take

finite coyote
pallid sierra
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flying boss

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also sucks when there is any tps issues, but im a gauntlet hater

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obsidilith is completely fine to fight

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boss is simple and decent

finite coyote
# pallid sierra boss is simple and decent

I don't think a "Simple and Decent" boss have 2x HP, 2x DEF compare to other bosses at the same level, and attack like there is no tomorrow. Honestly, even with Melee, I'd rather fight Mythic 70 Gauntlet than Mythic 50 Obsidilith

pallid sierra
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have you ever played a game revolving around bosses

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armored core

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elden ring

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sth like that

finite coyote
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Also, considering Gauntlet can miss you, while Obsidilith can predict your movement, making it even more unfair

pallid sierra
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just dodge

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or get any movement speed buff

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its easily dodgeable even with my own archer build

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also cough cough demon prince

finite coyote
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Yeah, I do agree. And Gauntlet can be dodged too, even easier

torpid tangle
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Gauntlet and Night Lich absolutely blow as half the classes

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quit playing before making it to Obsidilith because overall pack balance was just... not fun

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maybe a hot take, but Bosses of Mass Destruction simply is not a good mod

paper yacht
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Lich I can see but gauntlet is ezpz for almost any class (assuming yk how to dodge)

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And tbh obi has extremely telegraphed attacks that are fair to dodge

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If u get hit its 100% ur fault

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Which is why I personally enjoy fighting it at mythic

balmy lotus
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Idea: we add The Eye as a mythic boss >:)

pallid sierra
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we add the lich king on crack

pseudo compass
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@finite coyote with kindness this boss is literally the easiest of all bosses to dodge and beat

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aside from the defense it has, this one is piss easy compared to all the others

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the attack patterns are extremely predictable (you can literally see where it's going to attack, move out of the way maybe)

finite coyote
# pseudo compass the attack patterns are extremely predictable (you can literally see where it's ...

Attack patterns are predictable, yes, I can also says like that to all of the other Mythic Bosses:

  • Gauntlet, just 1 roll to the side, and its Laser attack can be avoided by simply moving to the side
  • Concierge is a joke (I do think we should remove this too, for being too easy)
  • Corrupted Champion, aside from its supersonic attack at the start of the battle (Yeah and such attack can be avoided by the Staff of the Monkey King's second skill, and he won't use that attack ever again), everything else is just as predictable. ||A bucket of water can ruin its second phase attacks||
  • Golem: OK this one is pretty hard for Melee, but it only have 1 attack (Aside from its Melee attack), and such thing can be easily dodged
  • Ghost of Captain Cornelia: OK this one is hard, but its low health and DEF makes it a fair fight
    All of these bosses, they have a couple seconds delay between each attacks. Obsidilith, on the other hand, attacks like there is no tomorrow, making it a burden to destroy its runes. Honestly I would have no problem if it doesn't have Invincibility

By the way, do you have any idea why Marium's Bosses are not in the Mythic Challenge? Bosses like the Fallen Icon could be a good replacement for the Obsidilith

main sleet
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Fallen icon is a lag machine and a dumb one too add can completely destroy surrounding areas and has so many particles it's not even funny

pallid sierra
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Elo herself said no to this

finite coyote
pallid sierra
finite coyote
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Thanks

long sable
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a lot of bosses arent designed for super heavily modded scaling

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ie concierge

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its mechanically not hard & visually great

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its a good early boss that provides a fun fight when player resources are limited

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but artificial difficulty by inflating damage/hp? breaks the intended flow

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similar thing for a lot of bosses

main sleet
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Concierge is always a fun fight tho

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Do wish it had more attacks

torpid tangle
pseudo compass
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and even then, they aren't meant to be super frustrating and difficult to kill, that just wouldn't be fun

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the increased hp is enough to make it a challenge without also making it frustrating for new players

long sable
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at the moment it seems like the ideal target audience of the modpacks are people impressed by visuals chasing a seemingly compled but very simple power fantasy

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modpacks in general because most fabric rpg modpacks feel very very similar

pseudo compass
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elo tries to make it her own and she does a great job at that, and to be fair, mythic challenges are optional side quests

long sable
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prominence is hugely original content & i have little opinion on it

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it seems more like every other modpack but prominence is ctrl c ctrl v prominence with a random shuffle of sub content orrrrr vanilla+ simplestuff

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theres a very overlooked middle range between what i cruelly & unfairly call fabric slop & epic fight forge slop

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theres alot of ppl who are interested in somewhat more complex gameplay & mechanical skill but not interested in super over the top current state of epic fight

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tl;dr dont listen2me im rambling

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i was exclusively talking abt boss design

& having to deflect the real flaws there by shifting focus clearly shows it is an actual thing that can be fairly critiqued, not just grasping at straws

pseudo compass
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if you played the modpack before hasturian era and played hasturian era in present settings i think you'd understand what i mean ill be real

long sable
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my only opinions are on boss fights & skill based mechanics

pseudo compass
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well that's just exactly what i'm talking about though

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boss fights then were too easy

long sable
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& boss fights now are artificially difficult

pseudo compass
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which is just fine

long sable
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its still not skill based

pseudo compass
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it is definitely skill based lol

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artificial hp does not make the bosses any less difficult

long sable
long sable
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hp is just a measurements of game time

pseudo compass
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it does not, the bosses are already challenging or semi difficult without hp boosts, corrupted champion or night lich for example

long sable
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if a player is going to kill an entity with 20 hp without getting hit back, theyll also kill the same entity with 80 hp, just that it feels more sluggish

pseudo compass
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being able to kill a boss in a few seconds because you are endgame, is not fun

long sable
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true

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but dodging & weaving the same 4 attacks with no difficulty at all for 5 minutes is less fun than for 1 minute

pseudo compass
long sable
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the boss is clearly not a challenge mechanically but an endurance test

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more osu! than dark souls

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not even osu thats mechanical too mostly

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idk

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candy crush

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;-;

pseudo compass
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for instance if you are like lvl 50 fighting a level 50 boss, it will reflect the difficult that it's meant to be i guess if that makes sense

long sable
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level is just a number that scales attributes, not difficulty

pseudo compass
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a lot of the bosses on their own are actually extremely stale or boring to fight when they aren't scaled hp and damage wise

long sable
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i think we should clarify some terms if u wanna discuss this further

pseudo compass
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level does scale difficulty lol

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have you played the pack cus it definitely does

long sable
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yes i have played

pseudo compass
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most definitely not recently then

long sable
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when a number goes up but behavior does not change at all, is that an increase in difficulty in ur opinion?

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be that number hp or damage dealt

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move speed already changes behavior, as does attack speed

pallid sierra
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made up numbers for this so its clearer
skeleton has 100 hp + 20 dmg per shot
skeleton has 20 hp + 4 dmg per shot

yes this makes skeletons harder to beat, especially if you have the same gear, even if you didnt, it still makes it harder to kill and or survive a hit

you can apply this to mythical challenges aswell since they just give the bosses crack
a challenge doesnt need new movesets or weird buffs that can break its ai/break the bosses balance, give gauntlet more movement speed in mythic challenges and see what that does

long sable
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it doesnt make them mechanically harder

pallid sierra
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this concept also makes everything harder the higher you get

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it does

long sable
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it makes them artificially harder

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no

pallid sierra
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since most mythic bosses will oneshot you

long sable
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more hp & damage doesnt make the player more likely to dodge the arrow

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thats mechanical difficulty

pallid sierra
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that means you need to learn how to dodge attacks instead of being a idiot and face tanking them!

long sable
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everything else is artificual

pallid sierra
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dodging requires skill

long sable
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yes

pallid sierra
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standing there like a idiot requires none

long sable
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the mechanic itself doesnt change though

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of course

pallid sierra
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it literally changes how you fight the boss

long sable
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we arent comparing how hard is it to be an idiot in scenario a vs scenario b

pallid sierra
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if you know you can take a hit you play with more risk than if you know that boss will wipe the floor with you

long sable
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we are comparing what is the added difficulty if played properly

pallid sierra
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mythic challenges have a higher skill floor than their normal counterparts

long sable
pallid sierra
long sable
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arguably minecraft is extremely non challenging because thats not its intended gameplay

pallid sierra
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even my tankiest build requires a lot of mitigation effects

long sable
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thats cool!

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mechanical difficulty is still not changed ;-;

pallid sierra
long sable
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depending on the content

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no ranged attack no movement attack, yeah cheesable

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either way

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concierge has proper difficulty scaling in its intended environment

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slight vanilla + in terms of scaling

pallid sierra
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its minecraft at core, you have parrying, you have rolling, i-frames and bosses that will oneshot you if youre not a tank, especially in mythic challenges, also all things you have to do in elden ring/DS btw and i havent seen someone bring up that argument when fighting the same boss in elden

long sable
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what

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obviously ng+ & ng+7 arent mechanically any different in difficulty

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its the same move set

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artificially increased difficulty

pallid sierra
long sable
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im basing all my takes off of precisely souls game design

pallid sierra
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i mean same boss, same moveset, just diff location + beefier

long sable
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thats all ive been saying from my first message

long sable
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artificial

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apart from environment

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nothing had changed

pallid sierra
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your entire approach changes if you know it can oneshot you lol

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or you will be drained out of estus insanely fast when you get hit

long sable
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your approach is dictated by your resources

pallid sierra
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no its dictated by the difficulty of the boss and its weaknesses

long sable
pallid sierra
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your resources dont matter as much as the bosses gimmick does

long sable
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gimmicks arent difficulty either

pallid sierra
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every boss has a gimmick

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lol

long sable
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no

pallid sierra
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and you play around those gimmicks

long sable
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rennala phase 1 is a gimmick

pallid sierra
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thats a mechanic

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for the boss designed

long sable
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golden godfrey has no gimmicks

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no precisely the inverse

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i dont wanna be pretentious this is why i suggested clarifying terms

pallid sierra
long sable
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that isnt a gimmick?

pallid sierra
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immunities

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you have a boss immune to most effects

long sable
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gimmicks are
rennalla phase 1
deacons of the deep
abyss watcher phase 1
rykard
yhorm

pallid sierra
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there is plenty of builds that can potentially struggle

long sable
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immunities only modify damage dealt

pallid sierra
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rykard being weak to the serpen slaying weapon is a gimmick

long sable
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not mechanical difficulty

long sable
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same with yhorm storm ruler

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rennala you needing to run around killing children is a gimmick

pallid sierra
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rykard still aint easy peasy though especially 2nd phase

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obsidilith has pillars

long sable
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deacons you need to control a crowd is a gimmick

pallid sierra
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nether gauntlet has its laser

long sable
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aether pickaxe boss

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is a great example of a gimmick

pallid sierra
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a gimmick is something that other bosses dont have, that you should or have to abuse to fight the boss

long sable
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A "gimmick boss fight" in video games refers to a boss encounter that heavily relies on a single, unique mechanic or gameplay element, often drastically different from the standard boss fight style, making the battle feel more like solving a puzzle

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immunities are not single mechanics

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immunities modify slightly how many times u need to dodge and attack

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they dont make dodging or attacking more difficult

pallid sierra
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its a unconventional approach to something or a unconventional mechanic, a immunity to all status effects is a gimmick if godrick doesnt share it with every other boss

long sable
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godrick can bleed

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you mean godfrey?

pallid sierra
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godfrey mb

long sable
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immunities arent important

long sable
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broadly gimmicks are not used in the context ur using the word

pallid sierra
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they still are, in the end, a gimmick, what would a bleed user do that needs his bleed procs?

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pallid sierra
long sable
pseudo compass
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i have a question for you acc, when you say mechanics, do you mean the bosses having different attack patterns from what they normally would ?

long sable
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yes

pseudo compass
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that would go against copyright of every single mod that were to be changed

long sable
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not really

pseudo compass
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the pack likely would not be allowed to be distributed

pallid sierra
long sable
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brutalbosses exists

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you can supplement any ai with jumping attacks/delayed attacks/summons/dashes/explosions/projectiles/commands at certain hp thresholds

pseudo compass
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altering the state of any mod for personal use is strictly personal use, there's no saying x mod creator wouldn't have an isssue with that

long sable
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thats not how brutalbosses is used

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either way i think we vaguely all mean the same thing & the pedantic convo has ruined the thread for anyone else

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i rly need 2 sleep i hope u 2 have a lovely rest of ur night/day<3!

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/srs

pseudo compass
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have a splendid night

pallid sierra
long sable
olive oar
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It scales with your player. So as you improve as a player, it does become a bit more difficult on purpose so that way it keeps things fresh, you're not just oneshotting everything and getting bored easily from it. This is not a vanilla+ pack, if a dev isn't happy with a boss they've added to their pack they remove it. Simple as that. If she wants something that's not a thing yet she either makes it or commissions someone to make it for her. Not all mod devs allow datapacks or mixins

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Also what the heck does this mean???

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pallid sierra
olive oar
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Prominence is a copy paste of prominence????

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the forge modloader dev fully is anti-mixins

olive oar
neon umbra
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Add gumas to mythic challenges AWOOOGA

long sable
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Difficulty

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Mechanical difficulty is referring to game mechanics, i.e. what actions happen, button input & player choices.

From an article about the taxonomy of video game difficulty: “Mechanical difficulty is about reflexes”

For the sake of clarity, let us agree on difficulty relating to enemy AI actions & patterns. So combos, movement, attacks, attack speed, etc.

Grindable difficulty, or as I have called it here “artificial difficulty” is, quoting the article again for consistency “the game giving you an option to power up via spending […] time”.

To clarify what gimmicks are in Boss Fights, youtube channel DesignDoc phrases it as “any boss that severely shakes up the games normal rhythm” in their Video essay from the 26th of August 2024. Since they represent more of a qualified perspective on boss design, here are 2 different opinions on it in a public forum from 2016

  1. “bosses that mainly rely on mechanics of the fight instead of tackling the boss head on”

&

  1. “unique gameplay twist that deviates from typical conventions”

So what is the consensus between these statements?

-a gimmick boss changes the players actions during the fight

So as a baseline, since we are discussing modded Minecraft, I will give my thoughts on what the normal & the gimmick is, in this environment.

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Minecraft combat is dictated mainly by range & movement. When looking at husks, zombies, endermen & creepers, the game pressures the player into action via the movement of each mob. Aggroed mobs will always try to get into their attack range of the player, via linear, with some deviation, movement. This is usually not forced but punishes inaction, as the player is faster than all mobs.

Endermen & creepers have gimmicks.

The gimmick of the enderman is that it is frozen when you look at it directly & takes damage from water. If the player does not control the endermans movement via eye-locking or entering water, the enderman is one of the hardest mobs to fight against because of its teleportation. However, teleportation only changes its approach direction. When not teleporting, endermen still approach the player in a straight line & attack the same way as any other standard melee mob would. If the gimmicks of the mob are not respected, the player will fight it in the same way that they would any other mob. The “severe shake up of the normal rhythm” is not present here.

The creeper is very different, fight wise. It relies on the same principle of a linear approach towards the player to create pressure, but how it deals damage changes entirely. As it explodes when in range, this is the highest amount of attribute punishment a player will be faced with when not respecting the “combat range” mechanic. The “severe shake up of the normal rhythm” is not present here”

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Skeletons are a clear outlier here due to their ranged attacks, but fundamentally their actions are still dictated by range & movement. The closer they are to the player, the more likely they are to tax the players health & saturation resources & their movement influences the players ability to combat them (moving backwards). Their ability to punish the player depends on the duration their damage over time threatens the player.

In a sense, they force the player much more severely than other mobs to take action, as the damage they deal is significantly higher in proportion to the severity of the mistake the player made. If a player miscalculates movement against any melee mob, they risk 1-2 hits. If a player does the same miscalculation against a skeleton, they risk 4-6 hits. Still, the mechanics are the same, the “severe shake up of the normal rhythm” is not present here. The player is just forced to make less mistakes.

So what would artificial difficulty be in the context of a skeleton? Making the damage per arrow one-shot. The threat of damage & the rate of shots would force the player to master movement & attack timings against this mob. Grindable difficulty, i.e. in a modded environment would break this by removing the threat of serious damage entirely (also happens just in vanilla with gearing up, as part of the player power fantasy, modded just accelerates this a lot)

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So what is an actual gimmick fight in Minecraft? The ender dragon. Destroying pillars to prevent the enemy from healing while avoiding attacks is entirely a break from all the other conventions of Minecraft enemy design. The boss is explicitly not tackled head on, beds being the only outlier.

Now that that is clear, I will return to modded environments. The Ferrous Wroughtnaut from MowziesMobs is a good example. Its gimmick is that it can only take damage after it attacks. Its attacks are very telegraphed (communicated to the player via visual or audio cues) & force avoiding damage via out spacing an attack (increasing the distance between the player & the previous concept of attack range) or dodging sideways inside of the attack range in a way that damage is avoided.

While it is a gimmick fight, in its intended environment the player is forced to play with the gimmick in mind, as otherwise the damage of each attack will one shot. This is a gameplay mechanic & player skill is involved heavily here.

Outside of its natural environment, i.e. modded, this fight becomes trivial. Via grindable difficulty, which the player can manipulate themselves by gearing up & increasing hp, the player can make the intended one-shot damage negligible & one-shot the boss at the first attack window, preventing the fight from ever entering phase 2 or 3, where the boss gains more attacks which have different dodge timings & attack ranges.

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In Prominence 2:
Since most bosses are designed in accordance to their intended environment, you cannot completely “fix” the scaling issue by increasing damage or health attributes of the boss. Increases to player move speed, for example, will always tremendously change the rhythm & difficulty of timing dodges, even if the damage the player would receive on being hit would be the same as if the player encountered the boss at their intended stage. Concierge is a perfect example. There is no way to increase the height of the flame attacks or the speed of them, without modifying the actual code. Therefore, jump boosts or speed boosts can never be compensated for properly to retain the intended environment of the fight.

In Elden Ring:
Rennala Phase 1 is a gimmick fight because you do not attack her floating golden ball directly, you attack her glowing children to get her out of the protective bubble.

Golden Godfrey is not a gimmick boss because immunities & resistances do not dictate how much effort it takes for the player to dodge incoming damage & hit back. The pattern of attacks coming towards the player is the same when using a Poison Zweihander or a Golden Halberd or a Unsheathe Uchigatana. Just like every other non gimmick boss in the game, resistances change the amount of time the player is exposed to his attacks & change what is “optimal” against the boss. The mechanical requirements do not change.

pseudo compass
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how does this affect the trout population

long sable
# olive oar It scales with your player. So as you improve as a player, it does become a bit ...

I want to articulate specifically that I am not commenting on the design of Prominence or Elo’s work, more specifically I am making observations about the boss design & gameplay in the pack, from a boss design perspective. In this thread I have already acknowledged that the design goals of prominence are very different to something that prioritizes boss fights & there is nothing wrong with that ^_^!

long sable
olive oar
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You are commenting on her work none the less, this is her pack. The boss options for fabric as mentioned by some others are not very good in the long run. There’s a lot of limitations she has as a modpack developer.

long sable
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hi ive put effort into this discussion & the original discussion was about boss design pls dont patronize me for smth i have nothing to do with

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i face the same limitation in my projects & have taken steps & done research on game design & how to circumvent limitations to still change experiences

olive oar
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The boss designs are not of her creation. They are of their respective mod developer. You spoke of prominence as a whole.

long sable
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if u read the whole thread thats false

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;(

olive oar
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I did read it, the way you’ve been speaking on the bosses were as if it’s a AAA game from blizzard.

long sable
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examples

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ive been mostly talking through abstractions

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concepts like movement speed & attack speed arent limited to AAA games

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same goes for punish windows & patterns

winter scroll
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we can't compare designing a game from the ground up to a modpack, those two comparisons just won't work becuase of how limited modpack-making is

olive oar
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You are comparing a modpack built up of mods from hundreds of different mod devs very few if any are full time mod devs in general. Comparing it to a game with a full dedicated salaried team who all work in tandem with a solidified group of executives, designers, managers, coders, designers who’s goal is to work on this sole project. This is not the same thing.

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narrow tapir
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you keep going on and on about how "your points don't have to do with prominence" but your entire rant about all this has literally been in a suggestion post about bosses in the prominence modpack, and your entire side of the discussion started by talking about concierge, which, you guessed it, is a boss in prominence. this whole thing literally reads like you're actually trying to talk about prominence and denying it, or you just have no actual point to all this

long sable
winter scroll
narrow tapir
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this whole conversation literally reads like a rant that can't actually affect anything

long sable
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sorry im very bad with tone

olive oar
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What’s really childish is you’re fussing about mods she cannot fully control in the way you are making claims of without violating hundreds of TOS of different devs.

long sable
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im not fussing ? ;-;

olive oar
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You are absolutely fussing

long sable
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Sorry not my intention

olive oar
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You have been laying frustrations and claims of changes that she literally cannot make without getting blacklisted by Minecraft and the community for violating copyright

long sable
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still, applying an effect that prevents attacks every (time interval) isnt breaking dev TOS anymore than changing health or damage amounts

olive oar
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A lot of devs are anti data pack and anti mixin

long sable
olive oar
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Therefore, she can only change from what is available within their defined configs

long sable
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which is why ive mentioned a few times that my observations & critiques are probably not important or possible to change in this environment (referring 2 the modpack)

olive oar
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Which is what we have been trying to say, yet you kept going saying she can do xyz

narrow tapir
olive oar
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Take up the issues you have with the bosses with their respective devs.

long sable
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i dont have issues with anyone

olive oar
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Nicole cannot build ground up on things that are not hers to control fully

long sable
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which is still straw manning

olive oar
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You clearly do have issues with these bosses in how they feel to fight, if that’s the case talk to them.

long sable
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I think issues has a too negative connotations for the sentiments i was attempting to convey

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i proposed an explanation for why some things feel the way they feel (vague) & then went more in depth on my opinion

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in the middle of that discussion i made a point about how the atmosphere set in a lot of modpacks feel very very similar to the first formula prominence 1 tried & tested

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content & gameplay wise

olive oar
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You wrote paragraphs about how you felt about the bosses feeling unnatural and frustrated with the leveling system. It is an issue none the less no matter how big or small. If you don’t like it you dont have to play the pack, you don’t have to play any pack with those mods in it, go ahead and find something else or make your own.

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The point of 2 was a build on from the first rendition with a lot of tuning and changes that she wanted.

long sable
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i wrote paragraphs about why changing a few damage & health amounts will not restore the original flow of a fight because the environment in which the encounters take place is still very far away from their original divinely correct environment

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& then i made sure to substantiate my opinions because in yesterdays discussion we were saying mostly the same things with different names

olive oar
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It’s what she wanted or could only change without copyright infringement

long sable
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& thats cool for her & i love it that she is able to express her creativity & vision for the project in the way she does

olive oar
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Please, go and make a ton of bosses with these ideas in mind, cause clearly there’s a lack in the fabric side of things.

long sable
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well i have

long sable
neon umbra
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damn, if you put that dedication into somewhere else in life you probably wont even have the time to play minecraft

balmy lotus
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Kayla have you considered: just cause you can make a suggestion doesn’t mean we care for your opinion

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If obsidilith is too hard for you, I suggest you go play candy crush, you’ll have a much less frustrating time playing that then prom2 based on what it sounds like

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And if that’s too hard, cookie clicker. Based on how much you’re willing to hit buttons for pointless reasons, you should be phenomenal at it

winter scroll
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I mean, i can teach anyone how to fight obsidilith, even mythic obi, just ask and i'll tell my tips, the big one being use Crush spell from archon to immediately get rid of the rune blocks

pallid sierra
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Just get speed buffs

winter scroll
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yeah, that's the second thing, socks from things mod or running shoes

and then the third thing would be roll enchants like multi-roll, acrobat, and longfooted

balmy lotus
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TLDR: skill issue

pallid sierra
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If my machine gun archer build that mostly stands still can do him, then anyone can

finite coyote
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Damn this Suggestion is still alive

balmy lotus
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The suggestion isn’t, the will to clown this person is

torpid tangle
winter scroll
pseudo compass
paper yacht
thick edge
winter scroll
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that heavily depends on the player tbh, inflation is a form of difficulty and it's not like you can go in and change the mechanics of a boss, granted the spawning of aberrations is pretty annoying and at high levels they can also deal a lot of damage so there's still that to look after, and there will be other affixes like this in the future

thick edge
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i'm just saying, it's like you're dealing 30 damage to a 300 hp boss, then late game you're dealing 300 damage to a 3000 hp boss
it's the same effect just bigger numbers
you're dying in 2 hits in either stage of the game, it's just bigger number more dopamine

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i'm not saying this is a bad thing, it's literally just a modpack you can't expect much for difficulty scaling

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it's not like they're reworking whole mods

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you can't really do anything about it in a minecraft modpack but it's just not a good argument to say inflating stats makes stuff harder

main sleet
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Why has this started up again 💀

pseudo compass
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no fr

thick edge
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idk i was bored and going tthrough suggestions and spent time reading this 😭

pseudo compass
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condolences

thick edge
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you don't really have much to do when you're just afk waiting for mythic challenges

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speaking of which

image.png
winter scroll
main sleet
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U have a lot to do actually

thick edge
main sleet
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U just making urself believe there is nothing to do

thick edge
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all the stuff there is to do i have to do w/ my friends

main sleet
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Still not limited but ok u think what u wanna think

pallid sierra
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Not even the balls to ping me when i made the thing crystal clear to begin with