Fix THIS before ANYTHING ELSE

[solar ibex]

Ask yourself this... what is the most detrimental issue this game is having? If you as a developer said anything other than LAG LAG LAG, well you are wrong then. Players want to have an enjoyable experience and nothing is less enjoyable than your gameplay being constantly interrupted. I am honestly about to start creating montages of nothing but lag in this game and remix the video and repost it everyday. This is not a threat. This is a promise, players deserve better. I thought China had pride in their work, if so please show us that.

[stoic flume]

Do you hace any expereinces with computer programming? Do you understand the technical limitations? If so, do you have practical solutions for them to apply? or are you just saying 'remove the lag' like it is an intended feature in the game.

[solar ibex]

... Good strawman, you have fun in that field of yours. No, I am giving feedback on the game as any customer will? Do you not understand that customers give feedback? Have you ever bought a product, enjoyed it, but thought... this is good but it could be so much better. To answer your questions no, I am not a programmer nor a developer, I am an avid enjoyer of games.. and that is worth enough in this scenario because it is people like me who fund games like this. Do you understand consumerism? People buy products that they like.

My practical solution is this, SLOW PRODUCTION on everything else and focus on optimizing the game in whatever way possible, buy better servers, if needed figure out what would be required as a monthly subscription fee or battlepass of some sort to help with footing the bill of better server hosting.

[stoic flume]

You are not the first to suggest 'fix lag'. What I am asking of you is to provide something more practical, or useful for the devs to work with. If you do not know a solution, then dont waste threads on stuff that dozens, if not hundreds have already asked about. It would be ignorant to think you are the first, or that you think they are not aware of the masses already bringing up this problem.

Your post is not a 'new suggestion' just another echo in the chamber

[solar ibex]

your comment is undesired

now that we realize neither of us care what one another thinks, bye

[opaque vigil]

It is not a technology limitation. Its clearly a developer limitation... This is the second time they said the lag would be fixed now. First 3 years ago then again 1 month ago.

Pulled the same trick they did 3 years ago, making promises to sustain player numbers.

Oh also they said they already broken the UE limitations but seems they were just talking wet.

[pallid orchid]

So one note real quick;
First off the "slow production" argument... I know this one comes up a lot when any game runs into issues... But at the end of the day your programmers and network teams are a section of any studio compared to things like; Art team, business team, risk team, ect ect.

the art team releasing concept arts for the Greek civilization doesnt add or take away from what the other teams are doing... and be fore you say "Put them on the team to fix this"... these are people likely trained and paid for the fact they know how to use their art an animation tools.

Secondly we on the outside don't know what is causing the lag issues. We don't have any profilers for official servers or anything. People make a lot of claims atm about whats causing what. But until we have hard proof lets pump the brakes a little

[opaque vigil]

What ? 😅 Then why in game mail everyone saying you identified it and it will be fixed.

Why boast about these 10k / 300 man skirmish servers if you dont know why its lagging.

= a shill

Just keep the promises up untill they sell more dlc

[pallid orchid]

oh boy here we go again...
I'm not shilling for anything, only speaking on the reality of the issues at hand

[opaque vigil]

Im not saying you are. Im saying who ever is behind you people are. and they are either lieing to you too or not telling you guys anything.

Why does all the information from you and ingame / the devs conflict ?

[pallid orchid]

because I have as much information as you?

[opaque vigil]

Secondly we on the outside don't know what is causing the lag issues. We don't have any profilers for official servers or anything. People make a lot of claims atm about whats causing what. But until we have hard proof lets pump the brakes a little

You do understand when you say "we" and your apart of the team, people think you mean the whole team

So bascially you should say, the devs dont tell us anything so we dont know.

[pallid orchid]

"we on the outside" ie players...
because people have been firing all sorts of claims on why the servers are laggy... from hosting regions to x players joining from said regions and so on

im just a player mate

but also... the 10k event crashed and burned...they comped two regions for it?

and the "We broke UE limitations" was likely written by a PR team as UE4's documentation has no listed player limits

[opaque vigil]

It never crashed and burned, i was in the whole event. People were just upset because they never got all the rewards, the last one specifically and they lost all their gear when spawning to home grid.

And exactly my point, you are shilling 10k man servers, when it was just 1 player and the rest were bots.

[opaque vigil]

I can find 10 comments from devs and old mods talking about it in this discord.

Including that announcement.

Yall were shilling the fact you "broke it"

and all these new servers are coming

[pallid orchid]

Stating an event crashed and burned to the point players were compensated the rewards they were supposed to get from the event has to be a McDonald's level shill

dam I shill for min wage if thats the case

[opaque vigil]

Then you all try to play it off like a joke and change the subject when you are wrong then start timing out....

Peace ooot

[pallid orchid]

I never timed anyone out, just saying

its almost like you forget I argue that we might need better server hardware or something...

[opaque vigil]

I was a little mean, not you then but it has happened.

I think what the people want and certainly need is an offical statement on the issue. Especially after the mail guys said it would be fixed. Honest, people wont care if you told them to wait a year.

Now they just think its content first

I mean its clear its not just the ping or servers, much optimization must be made. So just be honest and tell people the score.

Not you but who ever make the descs 😄

Even my favorite streamer is going dark on the game because of the situation because everyone thinks since it was not fixed years ago why now, and when they see DLC and marketing surveys, you really cant blame people for thinking like that.

All streamers are tbh

Past few days i joined, its just been complaints and crying about the lag

and full shitting on the game on twitch, its sad man

[pallid orchid]

And I think the issue regarding the mail note is the fact they might have addressed it...

For instance every patch does include a lot more than what we are told via the steam notes and #📢announcements . Things like translation issues and such. But we as players are only told the front facing things that changed for the most part. There was one patch note that came out since the game launched that included a bunch of other stuff as well but thats an exception and not a rule.

So here is what I personally think and you might agree; They did adjust something in the game to help with the networking side of things. however the solution they didmight have helped a little but it isnt as noticable as the lag and such we face from other factors like maybe the hardware they rent for the clusters might not be as good as we need.

For instance I live on Prefect 24 and the first 2 or so weeks it was very smooth, almost like butter. But it was a quiet cluster and yes there were chineese players. Once Prefect 24 had its full 16 servers, the lag was way more noticeable as people are also migrating around as well. So this makes me think its a hardware issue in general.

[opaque vigil]

Yeah i agree and its probable. But dont leave us in the dark and make suggestions like bad network setups and poor pc peformance :/

That kinds suggests we cant fix it

[pallid orchid]

I equate it to something like a bandaid solution for a gushing wound. If they did a fix, it likely helped somewhere but we are not feeling it

[opaque vigil]

Feels like it made it worse tbh 😛

But who knows

Could be anything like additional players

[pallid orchid]

Additional players, additional servers in clusters, building spam/decay, the meta with blood pits over blood walls stacking more and more NPCs in bases, ect

it could be a whole host of things, but without profilers we don't know

[opaque vigil]

Yeah i will not lie i do dabble in some areas of games and of the bat, decay and stables seems to be a main culprit for sure.

But also the npc, as for example... In the vigilante maps it starts to lag so bad when many npc spawn near the end. And it even stresses the main home server the map was started on when more npc start to spawn.

But im better at breaking games then fixing them xD

So what do i know

[pallid orchid]

Players are good at doing 2 things;

1. Optimizing the fun out of a game
2. Optimizing the performance out of a game

shut up I will grow my star sector carrier army til it just crashes the engine with all its fighters

[opaque vigil]

But they dont have a choice in how many it can spawn, tell the devs to tone that crap down 😛

Just swap a handfull of npcs for an enemy rhino or something

[solar ibex]

This game has been out for a long time, if they haven't fixed it now.. I doubt they ever will

Just another chinese product that looks really nice in theory but two weeks falls apart and you can't return it

[opaque vigil]

Well you can return it, you have something called consumer rights

Ignore what steam says and call the bank

Or just exersize your rights to steam and tell them you will make a complaint to the omsbudman if they dont refund it 🙂

[solar ibex]

wrong, We have tops 6 chinese players on our server and the rest are NA, and guess what... Even when the Chinese players aren't online the server lags like a mother fucker!!

[pallid orchid]

again, my speculation on it is its a resource issue

[pallid orchid]

I want to be clear...while yes you do have whats called customer rights... what your advocating for is whats known as a charge back.
please for the love of your steam account, DO NOT DO THIS

Doing a charge back on steam puts your account in a restricted mode. This includes but is not limited to things like; Purchasing, gifting, trading, cd-key activation, and Steam Community access. It also can result in the card or payment method originally used in the purchase to be banned from the service.

https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/783F-5E0F-9834-22D2

Lets not give people advice that locks down their steam account in the future.

[solar ibex]

I may be Yolo.. but I'm not THAT yolo

[cerulean mason]

All they need to do is figure out roughly what rust did for their servers. Or dayz, or ark, or any number of other studios that seem to have it figured out. Non programmers wouldn't really know where to look, but I bet you programmers would have a better idea of how to fix the issue.
It's not an issue of they don't know how to fix it, it's an issue of how much money will it cost them. Bottom line. I'm not a programmer, but I do understand how spend investors money money works.

[pallid orchid]

Again I'm all for consumer rights, I'm not for people doing actions that have consequences they don't intend

And yes while on Official the game has issues... at its core, the game is okay if you want a survival game via solo/hosted modes and private servers where you can do your own stuff (custom rules and what not).

[west shard]

But i love shooting arrows off my mount only to have them appear where i was 2 seconds ago and fly out at that angle and then to have the person i was shooting at teleport 3 feet to the left or right due to lag and have it miss 😛

[heavy widget]

lets get real this wont get fixed , just gonna be a waiting game on when the game dies and a diffrent company buys it and does better

[cerulean mason]

Truth. Ignoring performance and quality seems to be the name of the game these days.

[thick flame]

if the game was European and the Chinese asked for trusted servers near them they would have them... but what do you want them to care if we Europeans or Americans have 500 pings? “they” have excellent ping and enter region-locked servers.

[cerulean mason]

Well yeah, there has been blatant favoritism from day 1. It's laughable really. And the funny thing is, by ignoring it they are just losing out on $$$ potential from NA and EU players that would stick with the game, but quit because they lag every minute.

Literally throwing 100 dollar bills in the toilet and flushing 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[solar ibex]

This is the whole reason I bought this game /s

[solar ibex]

I agree that the game would definitely run better in these situations, but the game centers around an even larger concept of war, and I really want to enjoy that but lag really makes it pretty difficult!

[quiet tree]

Well for one, thats technically illegal.

If you think some terms just block your consumer rights or bypass the Fair Credit Billing Act. Then you are completely wrong.

Steam cannot block your account for a legitimate chargeback, and if they do. They are breaking the law.

Yeah they might block ur account if your a fool and dont understand your rights. But you can easily get it unblocked.

Thats when you say hey, do you know the Finantial omsbudsman services ?

Clearly state to steam, You decline the product as per your consumer rights and you are submitting a chargeback.

[pallid orchid]

thats perfectly legal because Steam is a middle man who pays out to the creators. Its them enacting their right to say "We dont want to do buissness with you"
Your account is not banned or blocked... you are put in a restricted mode and and cant access any thing involving money or the steam community. You still keep your library and bought content though.

So no buying any DLCs, games, ect until you resolve the balance

[quiet tree]

Does not matter, they are selling it from their platform.

[pallid orchid]

also you in the act of filing a charge back cost the company more than just the standard refund process. so ofc they are gonna restrict your account

[tawny pecan]

sooo...charging back any transaction before getting into contact with steam, by that bypassing the chance to resolve it internally, is a reason to have your account permanently suspended. this is stated in the TOS. the TOS state that steam reserves the right to suspend or terminate any services provided if you violate their policies, including initiating chargebacks.
furthermore initiating a chargeback can even be seen as a form of fraud, so i'd highly discourage you from doing so and instead contact steam support.

[quiet tree]

I will agree that its a grey area for sure...

I will agree that they will block ur account.

But i deny that you cant do anything against it legally.

Bottom line is, steams TOS does not hold any water at all against the Fair Credit Billing Act.

[pallid orchid]

Also charge backs EVEN according to the omnibudsman still state these are the two general reasons you file one...
You paid money, and you recieved the product. Which means the chargeback your arguing for is inching closer to fraud.

Also even your fabled Omnibudsman is gonna look at your Steam ToS/EULA... you know that "Steam Subscriber Agreement" that you clicked the check box on...

[quiet tree]

TOS is dog water, thats like saying i can open a site and flase advertise the product and put in my TOS i will ban you and not refund you.

[tawny pecan]

^ yup, no lawyer with a working braincell would take a case where you agreed to TOS and then willingly broke it.

[tawny pecan]

wrong, TOS is an agreement on both parts to ensure smooth operation

you can opt out, but that means you opt out of the service

[pallid orchid]

Again things you wont lose if you charge back;
Your Library of owned games (minus the one related to the charge back since you forced a refund)
Playing multiplayer with friends.
Accessing steam in general

But as soon as money gets involved your under lock and key

[quiet tree]

"The yearly reminder to companies that TOS still don't supersede EU law and aren't a magical way to weasel out of regulation."

Fair Credit Billing Act is king

[tawny pecan]

the fair credit billing act is about something else

[quiet tree]

Charges not authorized by the consumer.
Charges with the wrong date or amount.
Charges for goods or services that weren't delivered.
Charges for goods or services that were received but were not as described.
Calculation errors.
Charges for which the consumer needs clarification.
Billing statements delivered to an incorrect address.

[pallid orchid]

Can you explain why you cite EU law then cite the FCBA which is a US law?

[quiet tree]

Charges for goods or services that were received but were not as described.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fair-credit-billing-act-fcba.asp

[quiet tree]

Just depends where you are

As a CONSUMER

Rather than talk about stuff we dont know, let me show my steam history instead

[tawny pecan]

the FCBA primarly aims at disputes regarding cc transactions, it allows consumers to dispute unauthorized charges, errors on billing statements and charges for goods or services not received.
When you make a purchase on steam, you agree (literally virtually sign) their TOS, which outline the rules and procedures for disputes and chargebacks. by initiating a chargeback you're essentially disputing the transaction outside of steam's process, which violates their TOS.

[pallid orchid]

You authorized the purchase.
It was at the time you bought it
You were given the goods
Steam provides a 2hr/14 day window for this case (which if you try anything in court this will get thrown at you)
The receipt is sent via an itemized email.
And Steam asks you every so often to reconfirm your billing address..

[quiet tree]

I would like to see any TOS that bypasses consumer rights stand up anywhere.

Otherwise the whole world would be making fake sites and scamming people with TOS

[pallid orchid]

Glares at every single TOS with the word "arbitration" in it

Also Steam will comply with the charge back, but they are still allowed to punish you within their platform afterwords.

because charge backs cost around... $15 USD or 10% of the transaction, whichever is higher because they are ment to punish fraud

[quiet tree]

Not for a legetimate chargeback. If your scamming or submitted a fake one yes. They cant bypass consumer law.

[tawny pecan]

steam is the most pro consumer platform out there. you literally have no case if you accept the tos and then violate them, no consumer rights are passed here, you are just misinterpreting pro-consumer rights as a card blanche for everybody. companies are protected, too.

[quiet tree]

Funny how they could not ban me 😉

Or they tried but yeah

The secret word is, "Finantial omsbudman services"

[tawny pecan]

just because they didn't, doesn't mean they can't lol

[quiet tree]

No they did

[pallid orchid]

why is the word "Refund" right above it for the same ammount and the same text

[quiet tree]

and its removed 🙂

[quiet tree]

idk maybe because i enquired why i was banned and they refunded it to stop the CB ?

[tawny pecan]

or they just did it because steam is actually pro consumer and it's simply not worth it to dispute a 27 dollar charge. they could do it, but why bother, they make millions in a couple hours

[quiet tree]

But whatever happened, i asked why i was banned, complained, read some things then threatened to make a complaint with the "Finantial omsbudman services" and all was good

Money in account and account back

I may have threatened to refund my entire account too 😛

[pallid orchid]

I have yet to use the word banned btw

[tawny pecan]

lol, if you think that had any sway, you never worked in CS :S
every second person does that and it's usually not worth going into discussion for.

[pallid orchid]

Likely what they did was take a RISK analysis to your account ...

[quiet tree]

I mean we can guess all we want, but the fact is, no TOS, contract, agreement can bypass consumer law.

[tawny pecan]

yeah but consumer law doesn't protect against illegitimate chargebacks 🤷‍♂️

[quiet tree]

Do you not think they dont have things to counter companys who try to scam people with tos ?

[quiet tree]

When a company is threatening to punish you for one, sure it is

[pallid orchid]

also this is very much "He said, she said" in temrs of your story...

[quiet tree]

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/0/6516193260170866440/?ctp=2

or what a whole forum of people said 😄

There is many forums on steam of people exercising the omsbudman.

[covert surge]

In a way, it costs the business £750 to have a FOS complaint, they got off easy refunding 27

[quiet tree]

Thats like saying I can set up a site selling bitcoins then send people doge coin, then saying in my TOS i will ban ur account and keep ur funds if you charback a payment

then saying you cant do anything

[pallid orchid]

Also your refund was within 3 days of getting the season pass

[quiet tree]

world would be a bat shi crazy place if that was the case

[pallid orchid]

Like I am not blind

[quiet tree]

I had a whole day on there mate

[pallid orchid]

So your telling me you went to the FOS on a season pass you bought 3 days ago rather than going through steam support for a refund

[quiet tree]

and already like 4k hours on ark

I know steam does not refund after hours, so yeah straight to the bank

[tawny pecan]

yup, and in a couple months or years he'll be back complaining somewhere "why is my steam account banned"

[quiet tree]

thats was in 2020.

[pallid orchid]

4k hrs on ark =/= time on season pass.
Season passes are often viewed as preorders by steam support as well.

[quiet tree]

I love how everyone gets personal in this discord xD

[tawny pecan]

yeah and see how long your account will be going, thinking that you can use chargebacks now as standard refund method

[quiet tree]

At the end of the day, some TOS does not bypass consumer rights.

[tawny pecan]

who got personal? no one is

[tawny pecan]

while that is right, you don't understand consumer rights well enough by the looks of it, to fully rely on it blindly

[quiet tree]

This guy getting forensic on me xD

[tawny pecan]

that's not getting personal though, that's just checking what you say, which everyone should do on the internet

[quiet tree]

I mean its not like lawfirms like Mason LLP set up a steam refunds site to spite their scammy TOS

But hey what does a law firm know ?

[tawny pecan]

scammy tos? lol

[quiet tree]

Yeah, we will ban you if you protect your self with your rights

[pallid orchid]

How am I getting personal? I'm trying to avoid people from doing something dumb like fraudulent charge backs because from every source I can find... the game was delivered and you had time to evaulate the product within their refund period. Also the 2hr mark is a soft limit, they take that stuff case by case.

your invoking what is the nuclear option of transactions and I can't find any case law that properly supports you. Even your own claim of "They refunded my season pass" was within 3 days of the OG purchase. At this point is he said, she said.

[quiet tree]

basically.

[pallid orchid]

that was an anti-trust lawsuit

[tawny pecan]

that's not true, it's more like: we reserve the right to suspend any services provided by us if you break the agreement you signed, which is a prerequisite for using our services. if you disagree with them, you can simply use another platform

doesn't mean they do it every case

[quiet tree]

Yeah and their agreement cant bypass consumer law

by punishing you or threating you they are completley incorrect

[pallid orchid]

for someone who keeps preaching about law, you seem to cite...litterally nothing that helps your case

[quiet tree]

How do you think it looks to the Finatial regulators when a company is threatening to ban someone from their platform for exercising their rights.

[tawny pecan]

that's not what they are doing, but we keep going in circles here.

[quiet tree]

Clearly not.

Either reverse it or stay banned

yeah they aint doing that

So untill you ignore your consumer rights, and pay us for the broken or false advertise product you legitimately charged back you will start restricted

[tawny pecan]

lmao, alright, sure.

[quiet tree]

If you think that hold anywhere ur dreaming

[pallid orchid]

You know a product being borken or not as advertised are options in the refund window on steam...

[quiet tree]

Yeah and ?

Thats means my consumer rights dont apply?

[pallid orchid]

If you ever tried to fight this through an actual complaint you will lose

[quiet tree]

I mean you can speculate sure

I already posted you a forum of steam people doing it

if you really want to you can use google too and find others

[pallid orchid]

the COD source form was due to the ban system breaking and rending the game in of its self unplayable

[quiet tree]

For example the closest thing i can find in writing is -

The Consumer Review Fairness Act prevent companies from imposing any contract provisions that impose penalties on customers giving bad reviews. It is not unprecedented that corporations are held to account for these things. For instance, it would be a very bad idea for a company to use a lawsuit from a consumer as a reason to ban them.

[tawny pecan]

tos are like a contract and even though they don't cancel out consumer rights, you have to be 100% sure to charge it back. if it would go to court, the judge would look at the case provided, including the tos, then determine if it was deceptive in the first place or not, which would probably be thrown out as everything is available to everyone to read prior to agreeing. in a case where the game is broken, sure you probably got a chance, that's why steam generally wouldn't like fight against it, but using it as general method to refund, will get your account suspended or at least restricted, and there's nothing you can do except evening out the costs or making a new steam account.

[quiet tree]

If you think a company can just punish someone for a legetimate chargeback, they would then be in trouble.

[pallid orchid]

Right and Steam doesnt punish you for a bad review

[tawny pecan]

legitimate is the key word here. if you have a legitimate reason, yes, but in most cases you could just resolve it internally with steam.

[quiet tree]

legitimate chargeback is what i have been saying all along :p

For example the reason they limit the account is to prevent further funds being spend that will potentially be charged back or from a stolen card. For them to push this onto legitimate users who are exercising their rights, the company would be in deep trouble.

I mean standing alone they will probs tell you to fck off

[tawny pecan]

that's just semantics, as originally the topic was just about charge backs in general. krystalchan then advocated, rightfully so, to generally not use charge backs from your bank as regular refund method, as that can compromise your account

[pallid orchid]

Going through the points... nah your advocating for fraud and the only reason you get away with it is because is cheaper just to settle and keep your business than deal with you proper.

[quiet tree]

Not really since the post was started with a legitimate reason to chargeback

If this was some tramp trying to scam i would laugh at him

[tawny pecan]

that's simply untrue. the og statement was this:
which would be illegitimate, as he has been playing for a while now

[quiet tree]

and was even stated "Steam cannot block your account for a legitimate chargeback, and if they do. They are breaking the law." in my first comment

[pallid orchid]

The lag is likely referring to official servers... but that wouldn't be claim for a faulty product since the game comes with a server cluster tool and solo modes making the content still playable...

[quiet tree]

They said the lag would be fixed... 3 times now. Even gave a time and date 🙂

twice

[tawny pecan]

yup, charging back in this case is highly stupid and endangers your account, consumer rights or not

[quiet tree]

Said all the servers were in the US and EU

[tawny pecan]

which they are and they can proof that, gl on that charge. their server structure just processes data in an inefficient way

[quiet tree]

Not at all, if you buy anything that not up to it, you have every right in the world to contest it.

[pallid orchid]

Look if you want a legit charge back go through the proper dam channels and get your papers in order.
That order is Steam Support -> Wait for this to resolve -> If its not in your favor than screw it go to your agency. Get a proper paper trail for your claim.
The game runs fine on private servers that are less crowded. The game runs okay in solo mode. Your gonna have an issue proving a broken product

[quiet tree]

Hmm is the game advertised around solo game play and private servers, and not massive global scale warfare

[pallid orchid]

server clusters ahve the same warfare

[quiet tree]

But yeah lets keep arguing over nothing, even tho i have charged back on steam my self and posted steam forums of other people doing it

[tawny pecan]

if you didnt do your due dilligence in your refund process you have no strong case. having rights and getting right in court are two different pair of shoes

[quiet tree]

Very progressive 😛

[pallid orchid]

The cross server battle is the only mention and that is avalible on clusters

[tawny pecan]

would you mind explaining to me, what you mean with that? i think i use the word progressive differently and would like to understand you

[quiet tree]

It was a follow on from, "But yeah lets keep arguing over nothing, even tho i have charged back on steam my self and posted steam forums of other people doing it"

[tawny pecan]

and what are you trying to convey with it? like i don't get it in the context. exchanging opinions and sharing experiences is part of being progressive, no?

[pallid orchid]

glad to see your agency is down btw 🙂

[quiet tree]

This is what i meant about personal 😛

[pallid orchid]

nah i was just courious because somehow... theres always one person in chat here with the same talking points, sentance structure and so on... not hard to read things out either

[quiet tree]

At the end of the day, the regulator like the Financial ombudsman services is just some guy sitting at a desk. If you think hes going to play the game and test it..... go on private servers and test solo...

He will look at your video then look at the trailer, and believe it or not, that is enough. Especially in the UK.

[tawny pecan]

yeah and then he'll dismiss your case for being nonsense and goes on to the next 😂

[quiet tree]

Your sepculation must be correct !

[pallid orchid]

and now back to he said she said

[quiet tree]

Its not like hundred of people are making steam forums about it :p

[tawny pecan]

you think an ombudsman took your case, processed it, written a letter to steam and got it all solved in 3 days?
lol, you never used the judicial system, did you?

[pallid orchid]

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/0/1639794651178885290/

[quiet tree]

The fact steam folded, seems it wont just be thrown out 😉

[pallid orchid]

yea... and people getting restricted for it too

[pallid orchid]

glares over at cost of doing buissness

[quiet tree]

Sorry, i forgot, you must work at steam and know all their decision making

Im just sharing my experience

have fun 🙂

[quiet tree]

Now we are just going in circles, not one person on that pic is talking about exercising the rights, just complaining they were banned, As i already said

I will agree that its a grey area for sure...

I will agree that they will block ur account.

But i deny that you cant do anything against it legally.

Bottom line is, steams TOS does not hold any water at all against the Fair Credit Billing Act.

[pallid orchid]

nah i just happen to live around lawyers and spent my childhood in a law library...

[quiet tree]

Shi i would get a refund on your time

[pallid orchid]

also FCBA Doesnt apply, game was less than $50

[quiet tree]

You keep talking about the FCBA, america is not the world

[tawny pecan]

you brought it up though :S

[quiet tree]

They have to comply with the regions of their consumers.

[pallid orchid]

And the FCBA covers only OPEN ENDED CREDIT accounts

Then cite me a proper dam law for once

[quiet tree]

I think its better if you cite me the law that says TOS bypasses consumer rights

Hey guys we made this new law, buy sorry any guy with a keyboard and a tos page can bypass it

[pallid orchid]

any TOS with the word "Arbitration" in it.

because any time arbitration is brought up, you are knowingly waiving consumer rights

and you are agreeing to it

[quiet tree]

lmao okay, so im gonna set up a site selling Bitcoin and im gonna send peple dogecoin and put that in my TOS then im not scamming anyone

Lets buy a yatch

[tawny pecan]

if you advertise it as such, you could do that, yeah

[quiet tree]

Yall dreaming xD

[quiet tree]

No but im advertising bitcoin im not telling people im selling dogecoin

[tawny pecan]

that's fraud and something different.

[pallid orchid]

welcome to fraud then

[quiet tree]

How it different, than selling a game thats not as described

Your selling this game then sending them a broken one

still they aint get what they paid for

thats why TOS is garbage.

[tawny pecan]

because it's not as clear lined, the game is as described, but you saying youre selling bitcoin but send dogecoin is not as described

[pallid orchid]

cite me on the steam page what feature is broken and non-functional

[quiet tree]

If you wish to rely on the terms of the contracts you have with consumers it is essential that those terms are 'fair'. An unfair term is not legally binding on consumers, and enforcers can also take action to stop you using it. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 covers the use of unfair terms in consumer contracts.

Consumer rights overcome everything.

https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/goods/unfair-contract-terms

A standard term is unfair 'if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer'– Regulation 5(1). Unfair terms are not enforceable against the consumer.

Like i said, refund that time mate 😄

If you dont think banning someone for a legitamte chargeback is not contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations then you need to stop smoking crack cocaine

But we are both right and wrong, standing alone steam is obs going to state otherwise and tell you, you cant.

Only when you reach out to the regulators or even go to a claims court will you get your account back, but whose gonna do that over a daft game 😛

[pallid orchid]

I dont think this is meaning what you think it means

the ToS/EULA is in good faith and has plenty of balance back and forth... it would be really hard to prove an unfair term

[quiet tree]

Bro. No. TOS. Page. Can. Bypass. Consumer. Law.

the world would be scam central.

[pallid orchid]

**CITE ME THE LAW YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THEN

FBCA DOES NOT COUNT

[quiet tree]

https://www.gov.uk/unfair-terms-in-sales-contracts/unfair-consumer-contracts

You can never enforce terms or notices that try to avoid your responsibility for:

goods that aren’t as described

Then punishing someone for claiming a chargeback for goods that aren’t as described

I will agree, its grey also... but no way in HELLLLL is any regulator gonna say to you, sorry we cant help because 12 year old Johnny has a TOS page

[pallid orchid]

then point to me on the steam page where goods are not as described?

god Nascar doesnt go in as many circles as you do

[quiet tree]

I dont have to prove it to you

Jus the regulator

He will look at the trailer

[pallid orchid]

then your arguing fraud

[quiet tree]

then look at my gameplay

• in the UK

A consumer who has purchased your goods via an online platform has the right to cancel the contract and claim a refund without giving any reason or justification and without incurring any liability (unless exceptions apply) within 14 calendar days of receiving the goods.

so steams hours and playtime bs will not apply here either.

also -

If items are faulty, it doesn't matter where you bought them. You will usually be entitled to a refund, repair or replacement, depending on when you find the fault. See Returning faulty goods.

no matter how long you have had it

could be 3 years.

unfit for purpose

[pallid orchid]

dam wild that the steam return policy also states 14 days

[quiet tree]

you forgot the or

or sorry, the and*

The Steam refund offer, within two weeks of purchase and with less than two hours of playtime

Your trying so hard to win this man

like its a challenge or something

[pallid orchid]

the 2hrs is for automated refunds, you can still make a claim via their support and they tend to follow through on it

[quiet tree]

Oh really?

Dont make me post emails also

I have been declined on games with 8 hours.

[pallid orchid]

I havent had an issue at all with the 2hrs return policy and I live in the USA which has less consumer rights. With a game like MoE you would have no issue going past the 2hrs in your refund as you can just share the idle training mechanic needing your game to be open

its almost like if I can prove the game needs to be open for a mechanic in the game, then they kinda look past it

[quiet tree]

Seems like more specualtion :p

[pallid orchid]

So what I'm hearing is you are a prolific refunder if you have delt with support like this and you charge back as your first option now

[quiet tree]

No, i get sick of companys thinkng a TOS page and "no refunds" is a free pass to scam people. So i stick to my consumer rights to avoid all the time wasting bs

But yeah bring more personal stuff into it 😛

Its funny when someone does not get their own way, the last thing they resport to is getting personal

[pallid orchid]

The tos page doesnt say that but okay

[quiet tree]

Your hard to talk to, now you mean steam specifically ?

So yeah kiddys, You can chargeback the game if you think you have a legitimate reason, if steam threaten to ban you or limit your account, then remind them you practice your consumer rights and decline the product for X reason and show video evidence why. If they refuse then contact your local omsbudman and you will get your account back 🙂

But its probably better to go straight to steam to make the complaint, explain to them if it remains in stalemate you will have no choice to contact your bank and ombudsman to make a complaint against the product.

[pallid orchid]

CTRL+F

Oh look an arbitration cause stating you deal with them and not in court

informally means filling out a proper support ticket

And ta-da

"Even if one part of our subscriber agreement is unenforcable, the REST is"

The restricted mode would be under 9C as they are terminating the subscriber agreement with you

Also in terms of "punishing legit chargebacks"
How the hell would valve know? They just see a chargeback come through so ofc guilty by default and your allowed to prove a case

[drifting prairie]

Yo man you are so wrong. If i buy new car and something happen should i tell service how to fix issue?

[odd sentinel]

This is a great counter point

[quiet tree]

Like i said their terms and tos do not bypass consumer law.

and arbitration is only if your in russia

Or anyone could make a site, put any terms and tos and scam people

Your crazy to think otherwise

[quiet tree]

"if is found to be illegal" we are talking about a legitimate chargeback.

[quiet tree]

Like i said But its probably better to go straight to steam to make the complaint, explain to them if it remains in stalemate you will have no choice to contact your bank and ombudsman to make a complaint against the product.