#elder-scrolls-lore

1 messages · Page 45 of 1

quartz shuttle
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lol

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Hey, i had a character once who gave up hunting entirely, after an incident with a Doe

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He shot a buck, and as i closed to loot it, a doe ran over and just... Stared at the body. I could never kill another Elk with that character again.

tender flint
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Sshar lady of Morthal.. "Uthgerd the Unbroken was the one who killed the Vampire actually. I mostly used Restoration and well.. lightening bolt.. Aventus taught me that. "

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I really like the way i have decided to render that sequence.. its start with Aventus seeking the power. Then.. the investigation.. Uthgerd is there.. they meet Brenor who i decided is the cart driver in my version of the story there is a cart that follow Aventus and Talos around.

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The one that waits at the locations for you.. i have awhole mod idea for it. Geee.. we have talked about this stuff for hours now. More than answered my inital question about bird people.. oh! Harpies..

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What if they were Argonians..

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Trees .. birds .. eh?

tender flint
quartz shuttle
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EXACTLY

wet forge
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Well yea, the main quest is never forced you. I only go as far as talking to the Jarl and never fight the dragon. Those suckers are still waiting for me

tender flint
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Thats my Altmer apprentice to the Sorceror in Morthal! basically! Jarl!

split pond
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The Argonians were shaped by the Hist?

pastel sorrel
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Kamal have already been encountered. While we have little information, there's no indication they're Falmer-esque in any way. Even their armor bears no relation.

quartz shuttle
pastel sorrel
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We know they're at least humanoid.

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And we know what their armor looks like.

quartz shuttle
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which does not in any way disqualify them being Falmer, a race extinct fgor almost 3000 years inTamriel by the time of the Kamal invasion

pastel sorrel
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No, but that's just a Russel's Teapot at that point. If they were meant to be Falmer, you'd think there'd be a little more indication. TES already has a problem of millennia-old cultures using the same cultural motifs the whole way through, but in this case it works out for showing they're probably meant to be something else.

tender flint
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🤔 Kamal sounds Kajite to me, strange one..

quartz shuttle
uncut hatch
quartz shuttle
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Yet... No one knows what they looked like.

wet forge
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We don't know what Kamal look like? According to art, they seem to resemble frost trolls

quartz shuttle
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There is only fan art. We have no official art of the Kamal.

wet forge
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So we have zero physical descriptions at all and they're just taking liberties?

quartz shuttle
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Yes

proud zodiac
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@quartz shuttle I'm curious, what connections exist that make you think the Kamal are Falmer, and not... Lithmothiit, Imga or any other race?

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Or even, their own race and not one we've already encountered

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(For reference, one of the few things we DO know about Akavir is that "no men or mer live there" so it wouldn't make sense that one of the four major powers on the continent, and one of major players in the akaviri invasion of Tamriel would be a type of elf and people in Tamriel wouldn't go "oh hey there are elves there"

quartz shuttle
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The Snow Prince was defeated in a desperate last-stand of the Falmer in Solsthiem. However,it doesn't make a lot of sense for the Falmer to run there, as there were never any known settlements for them there, and the Skaal pre-date the defeat of the Snow Prince. So the Falmer seemingly retreated INTO enemy territory... which doesn't make a lot of sense

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But, if the Snow Prince was fighting a rearguard as the surviving Falmer evacuated Tamriel entirely, it makes a little more (though not by much) sense.

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The Kamal invasion of Tamriel was also to find something called the Ordained Receptacle. And based on their attacks, they went straight for some of the oldest Nord settlements on the continent. This implies that they A: know something about magical artifacts on Tamriel, and B; believed them to be in or around Nord sites.

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As for the 'no Men or Mer' thing... The Tsaesci disprove that out of hand. They're men. Everything we have depicting them shows them as Men.

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The explanation of them as shape shifting, blood sucking snakes is a fan-creation to make them more interesting than what we've been shown.

The Tsaesci are just TES's version of the Japanese, nothing more.

proud zodiac
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I would say, it would make more sense to me if the Falmer did evacuate to Akavir, and they told the Kamal that Tamriel existed and everything they knew, and that's why they attacked in that specific location

quartz shuttle
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Also possible. The thought experiment just ended up going towards the idea of militarist Elves clad in a sinister version of Stahlrim armour, preying on the local races during the summer months in Akavir.

proud zodiac
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I mean, if you want militarist elves, you want the left-handed elves. The Yokudans had to destroy the whole continent to stop them

quartz shuttle
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Did they?

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There are no references to the Left-Handers invading the Yokudans.

proud zodiac
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Left handed elves were ON yokuda

quartz shuttle
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In fact, the earliest mention we have is the Yokudans fighting amongst themselves for which kingdom would have the honour of leading at war against the Left-Handers

proud zodiac
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They didn't invade anywhere they are both from the continent.

quartz shuttle
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Sounds a lot more like the Yokudans were the agressors

proud zodiac
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Well, the yokudans and the left handed elves had fought many wars together. I didn't say they were the aggressors just that they were very militarily oriented

quartz shuttle
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The thing is... That's assumed, but it's not actually supported by any references or in game sources

proud zodiac
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The two races spent a thousand years fighting until yokudan sank beneath the waves.

quartz shuttle
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Again, nope. Yokuda sank because the Yokudans were fighting amongst THEMSELVES

proud zodiac
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We do know they fought for a thousand years, from in game sources

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"Having fought the Lefthanded Elves on Yokuda for a thousand years, wherever the newcomers found Elves in Hammerfell, they exterminated them."

quartz shuttle
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The Left-Handers had disappeared from their references long before the sinking of Yokuda

proud zodiac
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In any case, that's still an example of a dead race of more military oriented elves, just like the Falmer would have been

quartz shuttle
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Again, we don't know that. We know they had Orichalcum weapons, but not much else

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There is a lot of often-parroted but poorly sourced information on the Sinestral Mer

proud zodiac
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If you fight the yokudans, who WERE known to be militaristic, for 1000 years that means you're pretty well holding your own for at least a good chunk of that time

quartz shuttle
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Eeeeh, the Dunmer have held off invasion into their lands for thousands of years, and yet they didn't even have a standing army until after the Oblivion Crisis

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It would be a stretch to call them 'Militaristic'

proud zodiac
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There's no reason to think the Falmer were any more militaristic than any other elven race.... lots of elven races attacked and held territory, such as the direnni, or the ayleids

quartz shuttle
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No, but having just survived a near total genocide and a determination could lead to a more militaristic outlook moving forward

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The Falmer just running away and then going back to business as usual in another land, as if nothing had happened, is kind of a stretch. Cultures don't just ignore genocide.

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Now, do i actually think they are Falmer? No. As i said, it was a thought experement on r/TESLore years ago that i think is neat.

brave shoal
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depend on circumstance, if they fled to an area mostly peaceful, there no need to turn into sparta 2.0

quartz shuttle
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Considering what we've gotten from Akavir, they were probably just Mongols who like the cold. Since every time we learn more about Akavir it becomes more generic TES-Asia and less worth the time talking about.

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At BEST, they may be smarter Frost Trolls. But at this point, i think that's still stretching the bounds of what to expect out of Akavir

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Tasesci are just Men. Ka po'tun are likely just tiger coloured Khajiit. Tang Mo are just going to be Imga. And if we're lucky, the Kamal will be Rieklings or Orcs, but they're probably just human barbarians that live in the mountains,

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And to be honest, it's probably going to turn out that the Left-Handers were just Orcs, because it doesn't seem like the writers can take creativity past "The used Orchalcum weapons. Orcs used Orchalcum weapons. Clearly they HAVE to be the same people!"

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Because frankly... If the ESO team couldn't do anything interesting with the Akaviri, we shouldn't be expecting Bethesda to

brave shoal
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i remember reading a dev felt bad that the only asian human basically got wiped out in lore, maybe they want to readd these via one of the akaviri

quartz shuttle
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If so, it is a wild overcompensation

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But, i mean... look at Skyrim. They felt so bad about the cultural wasteland that was Cyrodill, they wildly overcompensated and there's almost more Imperial culture in Skyrim than Nord.

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So it wouldn't surprise me if that was the solution.

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Could be worse, i suppose... Could be ESO's Bosmer...

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"The Green Pact's, like, just a concept maaaaan. It only matters if you beleive it does, duuuude"

quartz shuttle
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Ugh, just thinking about the Green Pact riled me up, and now i cant sleep.

ocean brook
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pokes Caledor with a Green Pact compliant poking bone, taken from Definitely A Meaty Animal

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now go do Bosmer safe alchemy 😛

quartz shuttle
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See, that's my problem. There should be such a thing as Bosmer-Safe Alchemy

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Instead, we get the stupid Hippy Green Pact 'It's open to interpretation' garbage

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And the only actual even in the game attrbuted to the Green Pact is a bunch of Spiggans getting mad because someone picked their flower

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All the potential, all the interesting considerations and worldbuilding that the Green Pact SHOULD have had, thrown out the window

ocean brook
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. . . wait; they couldn't even come up with a bunch of meat, bone, and horn alchemy ingredients for Valenwood?

quartz shuttle
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We even has Bosmer farming. FARMING. WITH PLANTS

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Don't get me wrong. I love ESO. Most of it. But what they did to the Bosmer is just.. garbage.

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Lazy garbage. They couldn't even be bothered to put a bag in the bin first,.

ocean brook
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wow

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. . . and I belatedly notice that Freddo is here; hi Freddo!

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but seriously, wow

quartz shuttle
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There are some people who love it. And i vehemently disagree with them.

ocean brook
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I mean, I like the image of Bosmer ladies eating strawberries, but that's a guilty pleasure

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and that Bosmer was supposed to be Azura in disguise anyway, I swear!

quartz shuttle
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I'm an anthropologist by training. And the idea of a culture, even in a fantasy setting, that was totally unable to use the plants around them in any way, presented a fascinating premise.

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Instead, they took the easiest shortcut out of it, and just made them quirky wood elves with some cannibalism traditions

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I legitimately have more positive things to say about Oblivion, than i do ESO's Bosmer.

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Whch is a shame, because Morrowind, Skyrim, Highrock, Hammerfell are great

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While Blackmarsh looks generic and lazy, the Argonian lore is fantastic. And the Khajiiti stuff, as well, is better than Bethesda has done since Morrowind.

ocean brook
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I see

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also, I kinda agree with your assesement that the Nords in Skyrim are almost more Imperial than the Imperials in Oblivion were - assuming I read that right and didn't just dream I read it while sleeping at the keyboard again

quartz shuttle
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No, no, you got the basis of it

ocean brook
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like, Elisif might as well been a Countess of Cheydinhal, Balgruuf was basically just a gruffer, more Germanic sounding Count, and the Stormcloak officers felt like they were compensating for something with those silly bear head helmets

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the temple of Kyne could have been transported out of Chorral for all I knew

quartz shuttle
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Yeah... they overcompensated trying to make up for the Imperials, going so far as to give them unique armour and more cultural individuality, at the expense of the Nords

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To the point that... What's the core political conflict in Skyrim about? Ask anyone, and it's Imperials vs Stormcloaks. But it isn't. It's Loyalists vs Separatists. BOTH sides are Nords. It's not an Imperial Occupation, it's a CIVIL WAR

ocean brook
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it's just that the Empire has sent in one of their top men to settle the stupid thing before it becomes an even bigger drain on the Empire

quartz shuttle
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Yeah. Tilius is there so it doesn't BECOME the Empire vs the Stormcloaks. He's supporting the Loyalists in their efforts.

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But instead of, you know... Focusing on the cultural division amongst the Nords, they overcompensated for the failure of Oblivion by making one sidei almost indistinguishable from Imperials, jsut to give Cyrodiil something remotely approachng a culture.

ocean brook
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and the other side, is . . . well, it's basically the same, just louder and more willing to rant raciest obscenties

quartz shuttle
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Yeah

ocean brook
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oh, and something something joining the army requires killing some ice wraiths

quartz shuttle
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So, trying to fix the failings of Oblivion, and give the Imperials an identity... We lost out on the Nords having much of one

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I half expect the next game to be more about Nords than whatever people actually live in hte province we're in

ocean brook
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I mean, there WAS Nordic culture

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it's just all for the DEAD Nords

quartz shuttle
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And even then... it wasn't very well developed

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'Nords used to worship Dragons. Then they killed them because they were mean. The end'

ocean brook
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"Nords were gifted the Voice by Akatosh (and maybe Kyne, like we originally said back in Morrowind) - and uh, also that dragon over there."

quartz shuttle
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Yup

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And, like... The total lack of faith in the players didn't help

ocean brook
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I've drafted a new rule, incidentally - when Elves want to sound important, they must rant in Old Elfoniny, but Nords must rant in dovahspeak 🙂

quartz shuttle
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While it's never been confirmed outright, but various rumours and leaks from Bethesda-adjacent sources have been saying since basically 2011 that, the reason we didn't get the Nord pantheon in Skyrim...

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Was because higher-ups at Bethesda were afraid returning players from Oblivion would be confused by different gods.

ocean brook
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. . .

quartz shuttle
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Basically... Everything 'Nord' got cut because someone thought the players would be too dumb to 'get it'

ocean brook
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that does it; I am headcannoning the Dibella, Mara, and Kyne temples to be run by warrior maids who each specialize in a different flavor of fruit-infused mead

quartz shuttle
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Whether true or not, it definitely FEELS like it's what happened, when you sit down and look at it.

ocean brook
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and yes, it does; I mean, we get Tsun, and his brother's backbone, but that's it, and they can be passed off as the hired help for Sovngarde

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I do sorta get it; the Empire has been around for so long, and been so influential in Skyrim's history, that it makes sense that there's been a lot of cultural assimilation

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which makes Ulfric look even more silly, because his "old ways" that he harkens to come across as "ancient customs of acting in bad faith that we didn't outlaw back then because we were all bloodthirsty barbarians"

quartz shuttle
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Or, don't get me started on Ulfric and his Appeal to Tradition...

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But it's all even more frustrating when you have something like the Ghost at Old Hroldan. Little hidden things which show that SOMEONE at Bethesda is trying

ocean brook
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I'm almost tempted to get you started anyway, just because I'm curious to hear your take on the subject - but yeah, little details like "sleep in the bed once slept in by Tiber Septim!" was a nice little worldbuilding detail, and the fact that it came with a ghost with some bit of actual lore along with him was even better 🙂

quartz shuttle
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And hte fact that said ghost refers to you as Hjalti, the name given to Tiber by the Arcturian Heresy, a book that directly contradicts the 'Official' story

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Undermining the game's overt Talos complex by giving legitimacy to the alternative narrative that Tiber Septim was a liar and a egotistical usurper

ocean brook
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who even backed out of his promise to make that guy his sworn brother!

quartz shuttle
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Yeah. The Nords worship a not-great person

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But it's almost like some devs had to work to actively hide that, while hte overall drective was to emphasise just how awesome Talos is. And that's been a running thing since Knights of the Nine

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Wouldn't be so much of a problem if we were talking about Cyrodiil, since... You know... Tiber Septim is their founding father. But making him so important to the Nords, a people who actively fought AGAINST him was just... a muddied choice

ocean brook
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the Nords have always had thisd idea of themselves being the true founders of the mannish-run Empires, I thought

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so it made sense that they would appropriate Tiber Septim as "really our Talos Stormcrown!"

quartz shuttle
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Nords have the idea that they are the true originators of all Men

ocean brook
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right, that too

quartz shuttle
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But like... something that sorta highlights the clear writing disconnect that's present in Skyrim, with their Talos-Fangirling

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If you side with Tillius, when you kill Ulfric, Rikke will say a prayer for Ulfric. She wishes him swift travel to Sovengarde. Tullius' response is "What was that legate?" to which Rikke responds "Nothing sir."

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Why? Sovengarde has nothing to do with Talos. It's like they were so fixated on Talos they totally forgot who ruled Sovengarde. No one's trying to ban Shor

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And this weird disconnect exists across Skyrim's religious dabblings.

timber bough
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I took that more as in Tullius not appreciating Rikke's respect for Ulfric due to him being a traitor

quartz shuttle
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I suppose it could have been that.

ocean brook
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yeah, that was the essential problem Tullius had to work with; most everyone in Skyrim at least respected Ulfric, even if they hated his guts

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onoly Elisif lacked that respect - but she was portrayed as a naive girl

quartz shuttle
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Ulfric also butchered her husband. That probably didn't help

timber bough
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Consider that Markarth was "liberated" (brutally reconquered) by Ulfric before Skyrim's start and is an Empire-allied hold

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One thing I like that Bethesda did with Skyrim is that they made sure to not have a clear east-west divide and build in lore that connects the province internally well

quartz shuttle
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Yeah, it's clear there are loyalists and separatists in every hold. Even Layla's son openly condemns Ulfric, despite his mother supporting him.

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Which is kind of what makes the overbearing Imperial element of the Loyalists so tragic... It obfuscates just how divided Skyrim is

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It, once again, it's a Rebellion, with the Empire occupying the province. It's a Civil War, with the Nords fighting over who will determine their future stance on the Empire.

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And there are enough shreds the to show what COULD have been... But that's sort of a running thing with Bethesda games

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Piles of scrap that barely hold themselves together, but have juuuuust enough to them to show a glimmer of true brilliance. Which, to their credit, is still better than the bland mediocrity of most other studios.

ocean brook
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there is some sense that Skyrim - much like the Empire - has fallen far from past glories, and the current crop of Nords have lost their cultural identity, even while they're loudly arguing over who is still a "true" Nord

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all of which makes the Thalmor's presence in Skyrim all the more heartwrenching, because it's painfully obvious that they've basically already won

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and they're just seeing how long they can drag out the torture of a nation's psyche at this rate

quartz shuttle
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Controversial... But i kinda want the Dominion to win.

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Maybe not the Thalmor, but the Dominion.

ocean brook
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I've been semi leaning that way myself

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especially since, given what you've brought up tonight, the elves must be secretely laughing at how the Nords are so fervently worshipping a god who used to be a man they were fighting against some 600 years prior

timber bough
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I get the impression they're more intensely pissed than laughing

quartz shuttle
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I don't support the Thalmor and their ideologies... But i am so freaking sick of Mannish and their grubby hands rubbing their dung all over everything

timber bough
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Being forced into submission through a giant death robot controlled by a guy with serious trust issues is pretty humiliating

quartz shuttle
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Of course, while i actually like the Empire (and Empires in general, but thaaaats... a whole other discussion) i HATE the Septims, and if we can't have the Medes, then it's time to burn Tiber's legacy to the ground

ocean brook
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dare I ask what you think of Uriel VII?

quartz shuttle
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Incompetent old man who rode the Empire into ruin.

timber bough
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He started off well, then Jagar happened and he just decided to sit on his couch and cry for the next 3 decades

ocean brook
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and suddenly I remember why it's dangerous to run expansive RPs in this brand ^_^

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makes mental note: remember that Ted's depiction of Uriel was Just For That Alternate Timeline

quartz shuttle
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The problem is... HE picked Tharn. His entire court objected, but it was HIS choice.

timber bough
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Yeah...

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And somehow nobody except Ria noticed that something funny was going on

quartz shuttle
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His terrible judge of character and unwillingness to listen to his advisors is directly responsible for what followed.

timber bough
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For 10 years the Emperor acts completely inanely and out of character and nobody questions it lmao

quartz shuttle
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Which makes you wonder if it was REALLY out of character

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Or if Uriel was actually so incompetent no one noticed the switch

ocean brook
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see, I had assumed that Tharn was using magic on everyone, and only Ria managed to make her wisdom save

timber bough
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From the info we have, pre-Jagar his reign looked very promising, but then again that could be bias by whoever wrote that source

quartz shuttle
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It's sort of like the Ocato problem. We're told Ocato was a shrewd statesman and capable leader... BUt everything we actually see from him is the opposite

timber bough
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We know that after Morihatha the Empire decisively went into a downwards trajectory, so it's not impossible that the good things we know from Pelagius and Uriel are just fabrications

quartz shuttle
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This is probably because of the Writers own failures, but we sorta have to deal with the consequences of that disconnect

timber bough
quartz shuttle
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It's like Warhammer. Commanders like Chenkov are called "Brilliant tacticians", but their tactics are always "Throw endless waves of soldiers at a wall until it comes down".

ocean brook
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it's weird, but not all that unusual for the sort of high fantasy story Arena was telling at the time

timber bough
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To me it kinda just emphasizes how useless the Blades were

quartz shuttle
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Oh, don't even get me started on the Blades...

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But, that's another example of us having to deal with what is PROBABLY caused by bad writing.

ocean brook
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there are times when you have to forgive the unfortunate imlpications caused by the writer's not thinking things through

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or, in the case of Arena, ideas not being fully formed yet

quartz shuttle
ocean brook
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vodka

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lots of it

quartz shuttle
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Take Ocato for instance. He was supposedly a capable leader who held the Empire together...

Except, he refused to consolidate the defenses of loyalist supporters during the Oblivion Crisis, or protect the Heir and only potential solution to the problem.

He theni said they'd have to find a new Emperor, but spent a decade... Not tapping the dozens of Septim satellite lines in Highrock.

timber bough
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the Blades
-got Uriel V killed through utterly false intel on the Tsaesci
-stood by while Uriel VI was getting his throne illegaly kept from him by his regent-mother and the Elder Council
-did nothing to prevent Morihatha's assassination
-didn't notice Uriel VII was being impersonated throughout an entire decade
-broke space-time trying to do politics in High Rock
-did an educated guess on orders of the Emperor and took the credit for killing Dagoth even though they ditched the Nerevarine like half-way in
-completely, utterly, unquestionably messed up everything related to the Oblivion Crisis

thats just what comes to mind right now

quartz shuttle
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Yeah... Do the Blades have a single accomplishment to their name?

ocean brook
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Delphine ran a tight ship at the sleeping giant inn for a good while

quartz shuttle
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I actually suspect the Dominion managed to catch and kill all their agents, because the idiots were going around "I work for the Blades, do you have any information on the activities of the Thalmor?"

wet forge
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@ocean brook Not really, and that's why her behavior was incredibly off putting. We had nothing to prove, unlike one of the remaining members of a near dead faction who failed in their only purpose

timber bough
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but hey i guess they wave around katanas in their cool fortress

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nevermind the fortress is gone thanks to the Thalmor

ocean brook
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. . . wow; there are people with even harsher opinions of Delphine than me

quartz shuttle
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Aaaand... Katanas are kind of stupid weapons

timber bough
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Delphine is pretty universally hated in the community

ocean brook
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I've begun to actually like her, or at least, to feel a measure of sympathy for her

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and katanas aren't stupid weapons - they're just not ideal swords for fighting against Tamrielic armors

quartz shuttle
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The Blades use Shields. Shields are so useful against the sort of blade that a Katana has (designed mostly for cutting) that Japanese culture specifically shifted to make Shields socially unacceptable to empower the military class, which had adopted Katanas as a status symbol

wet forge
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@quartz shuttle Overrated is a more appropriate word for it

quartz shuttle
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Fair

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They're a mostly efficient meat cleaver, though there are many Sabre designs which are even better at that

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There's a reason Samurai typically used bows and polearms in ACTUAL battles.

wet forge
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Yep. In war, katana were the equivalent of a pistol, a mere sidearm

ocean brook
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well, that, and bows and polearms are more suited for battlefields than swords in general 🙂

quartz shuttle
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Yeah

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Well, depending on the tactics used, anyway

ocean brook
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anyway, back on topic - yeah, the Blades have a pretty lousy track record, and I think that's become an intentional thing, since by now you'd think if Bethesda wanted them to be Not Totally Incompetent, they'd have given them something

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instead, we have a long list of screw ups

quartz shuttle
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I'm less sure

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They've served as the 'Mentor' organization in all of hte last 4 main line games. We're SUPPOSED to trust them and work with them and rely on them

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I don't think we're supposed to actually look at them critically, and consider... you know... whether or not they've ever once acomplished anything

wet forge
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@ocean brook Well they were given their own game... That is something, right...?

ocean brook
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I guess? I haven;t played that one yet, so I don't know how they come across in it 🙂

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and, good point Caledor - and as is traditional for the mentors, at some point they usually die, or otherwise get taken out of the picture

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which, in Skyrim, has happened on such a scale already, that you end up mentoring the surviving members of the Blades to help them get back on their feet

timber bough
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Only problem being that their leader thinks she can mentor you

wet forge
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@timber bough Exactly why I hated her condescending attitude at first. Us being dragonborn or no, if she had anything to teach, she wouldn't be in hiding

timber bough
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I guess she could teach us all the nooks and crannies to being an innkeeper

ocean brook
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she's also a woman who saw all her friends and comrades get brutally murdered and then spent the next 30 years trying desperately to avoid the same fate

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all while knowing that she and her entire org failed in their mission so hard that the stain of their dishonor will never be wiped clean

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. . . and then, finally, when all else seems lost, the one thing that might turn her life around shows up

quartz shuttle
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Oh, i sympathise with her more than i do Ulfric. And i sympathise with Ulfric

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I just don't think either of them are remotely qualified to be leading anything

ocean brook
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I do too, these days

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and . . . I happen to agree with that assessement as well

quartz shuttle
#

The only characters i outright hate are the stupid ones. Like Ocato

ocean brook
#

I just assume that the only Ocato is the one we see in Daggerfall, who brilliantly heled a torch in a totally comeptent manner

quartz shuttle
#

Who i am convinced was assassinated by the Elder Council, because his indecision and incompetence was making it so they had zero progress towards actually finding a new Emperor

wet forge
#

Mr. Cloud District needs no mention I trust

timber bough
quartz shuttle
#

Fair

ocean brook
#

agreed

quartz shuttle
#

But it's a slightly more positive take on Ocato than my alternative. That he actively worked for the Thalmor to destablise the Empire

#

Because, of the decisions we can knowingly attribute to Ocato... Not a single one of them is good.

ocean brook
#

this would also suggest that Uriel VII really knew how to pick an Imperial Battlemage

quartz shuttle
#

Well, i did say he was incompetent 😛

wet forge
#

Come to think of it, dragonborn was a convenient piece of lore for skyrim in terms of adding a new mechanic. Considering Hammerfall is likely the next locale, what Redguard lore could fit a similar purpose?

#

Or would they need to invent something new?

quartz shuttle
#

Sword Singing

wet forge
#

How does that work?

quartz shuttle
#

We aren't entirely sure, as the Redguard mostly lost the art

#

But we know it's what sunk Yokuda

ocean brook
#

it's simple

#

you hold your hand out, and yell "Take this! My love, my joy, and all of my sorrow!"

#

then bam! you have a shehai

quartz shuttle
#

A Shehai bring a spiritual sword formed from your own soul

wet forge
ocean brook
#

^_^ honestly, I prefer the Thu'um, but my taste in anime has changed over the years

quartz shuttle
#

the running fan theory is that it's a sword-art using a spiritual weapon where certian forms or patters create 'Tunes' which have a similar effect to Shouts

#

But that's entirely speculation based on the name

wet forge
#

Might be difficult to implement as the name is sword specific

quartz shuttle
#

That is part of the concern, yes.

#

Anywho, need to try to get a few hours sleep in...

ocean brook
#

I suspect that the singing part will play out as you 'singing' the name of your maneuver as you perform it

wet forge
#

But in theory, the power roots from mere weapon proficiency, yes?

ocean brook
#

we don't really know

#

from a gameplay standpoint, however, it would seem odd if the star mechanic of a game forced the player into a given playstyle

#

how you would separate Spirit Sword from sword profeciency, however, is something I couldn't tell you with the amount of sleep I have atm

#

I should probably fix that >.>

last sage
ocean brook
#

well, that's even more Redguardy than joy; let's go with that ^_~

wet forge
#

Out of curiosity, did the thuum even exist prior to Skyrim?

timber bough
#

Yup, it's been mentioned as "Shouts" as early as Morrowind at least

gaunt bear
#

According to the lore, at least, the Thu’um is as old as the Dovah, since it’s part of their being.

ocean brook
#

in terms of appearing in the game lore, I think the Thu'um first appeared in the first edition pocket guide?

quartz shuttle
#

It was mentioned, yes, though it was only called The Voice

quartz shuttle
#

It was a mostly dead art which Tiber Septim tried (and it would seem failed) to revive with a college in... Markarth i think?

wet forge
#

Could easily revise the power by saying Redguards only succeeded in channeling through the sword. There could be more to it for all anyone currently knows

brisk perch
#

I think the power the Yokuda used is similar in concept but also fundamentally different implementation than the Thu'um. Both probably originate from the same source, in channeling your vital essence, but how it is done seems to be different. Tonal magic and the power of sound on the world is complicated.

pastel sorrel
quartz shuttle
#

The Thu'um and Dwemer Tonal Engineering are vaguely implied to be variations on the same thing

#

Sword Singing, we don't really know about, but the 'Singing' part has led to speculation they are another variation

#

But all we know for sure, right now, is part of Sword Singing is manifestng a spiritual sword, a Shehai, which is composed of your own soul.

#

At present, we don't actually ahve any knowledge of Sword Singing being done with a conventional weapon

#

Which... does actually leave some room for OTHER kinds of weapons. The shape of a Shehai varies with weilders, it could be that the Yokudan's social prestige for Swords dictates it's appearance, but it isn't absolutely necessary that it be a sword

rocky lion
#

they are tonal magic

brave shoal
#

from what i read in eso, yokudan had to master sword singing with normal weapon first before going with the spiritual only ''end game'' of their art

obtuse summit
#

that's normally sword singer did, but prisoner always special case 😄

split pond
#

I hope they don't nerf stealth too badly in ES 6. There's always mods, Bethesda would be stupid not to make the game moddable, but still.

quartz shuttle
#

More of a gameplay discussion, but... Stealth, like many basic systems, needs a lot of work.

quartz shuttle
gusty hare
quartz shuttle
gusty hare
#

I think its quite hard to nerf stealth, since theres a lot of ways to exploit it

quartz shuttle
#

Making it work in anything approaching a reasonable way would be nerfing it

timber bough
#

I’d like a return of the chameleon spell

quartz shuttle
#

I think it would need to be changed it's self to really work, because as it was it was just another exploit

#

And... you know, not how Chameleon's work. Maybe if it only worked while you were standing still

timber bough
#

It’s kinda tough to make illusion spells not exploits

#

Maybe the best compromise is to lock them off to high levels

gusty hare
timber bough
#

Yeah that’s my go to in the early levels lmao

#

Skyrims levelling system has a few issues like that

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah, like most things in Skyrim, a lot of it's core issues revolve aroud things just not being refined and balanced

#

But conceptually, Illusion needs to have a lot more restrictive behaviours to make sense.

#

there's a text from Daggerfall, i beleive, which mentions the Conservation of Perceptions as a fundimental law, and how permanent invisibility is impossible because of it.

#

And yet... Chameleon.

gusty hare
#

Like that town in oblivion

quartz shuttle
#

It was a single mage in the Bruma Mages Guild. And that was really more just to facilitate the stupidity of the Oblivion Mages Guild questline

#

Of course, i hate pretty much everything in Oblivion, sooo... my opinion there may be miased

gusty hare
quartz shuttle
#

I have no recollection of that quest. Which surprises me, since there are so few towns in Oblivion

#

Looked it up, and it does indeed exist

#

yet another thing for me to hate Oblivion for

#

Oblivion didn't care about world building, the entire game is an exercise in generic fantasy and FOR THE LULS!

gusty hare
#

I thought skyrim had more reasons to be hated then oblivion

quartz shuttle
#

Not even remotely

#

The positive things i have to say about Oblivion are limited to a few mechanical changes, such as no more dice-roll combat

timber bough
#

Oblivion was the most expansive Lord of the Rings game at the time

quartz shuttle
#

hats not fair to Lord of the Rings

#

Bear in mind, i'm not one of those "Eeeeh, they retconned X" people

#

Retcons can be great. But they need to be of equal or greater quality. Oblivion wasn't.

timber bough
#

You referring to the jungle controversy?

quartz shuttle
#

Quality, i mean. It is a baren, soulless wasteland devoid of anything but the most superficial worldbuilding

timber bough
#

That's very true, and it's why I can't really take the jungle controversy serious

#

The jungle thing wasn't pursued mainly because of technical limitations, but imagine if it was and everything else about Oblivion stayed the same. The same exact characters, worldbuilding (minus the jungle retcon), locations (+ jungle stuff), etc.

#

I think in a way Oblivion would've been even worse off because the whole generic medieval europe stuff would clash like hell with an outright jungle

quartz shuttle
#

And that's fine, turning Cyrodiil into a more temperate environment isn't a problem.

#

But it's the lack of anything... you know... INTERESTING.

#

What's he cultural difference between Leyawin and Bravil?

timber bough
#

One looks slightly more like a dump than the other

quartz shuttle
#

What social role to the Knighthoods play?

#

What are the practices and beleifs of the Imperial Cult?

#

Where the sodding hell is the LEGION?

timber bough
#

According to Todd, Oblivion's MQ was originally going to have a big political sideplot that'd culminate in the player becoming the Count of Kvatch. It was apparently cut because they thought it distracts too much from the main plot and everything else. In my opinion, I think such a side plot executed well would've infinitely improved Oblivion

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah, to be honest... I'm not sure Todd is a good 'Director'

timber bough
#

It would've included politicking in the Elder Council and more. You'd think political intrigue should've been one of the main focuses in the not!Roman Empire's capital.

quartz shuttle
#

Like, the whole emphasis of the games is giving you loads to do and experience, right? So... Does it matter if anything 'distracts'?

timber bough
quartz shuttle
#

To a degree, maybe. But i think the same problem is present in Skyrim as well

#

Though it is more specifically with the worldbuilding, and hte total lack of the Nord pantheon

timber bough
#

Skyrim got a lot of stuff retconned too, but unlike Oblivion they managed to counterweigh it with a fairly interesting political situation and decent enough characters. That and they made sure to keep just enough exotic stuff with the Thu'um, talking dragons and not!Valhalla that it didn't feel blaringly empty as Oblivion did.

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah

#

But like... Retcons aren't bad, so long as they at least match what they're retconning

#

For instance, the Necrons in Warhammer 40k. Retconning them from mindless machines in service to a handful of malicious gods, to a series of ancient alien dynasties who rebelled against said gods and are now divided amongst shattered kingdoms and with scattered cults to the gods they overthrew, was an improvement

timber bough
#

We'll have to see what they do with TES VI. If it's really set in Hammerfell, I'm curious to see how they'll handle the lore ESO added. It'd be odd if they end up retconning ESO lore.

quartz shuttle
#

I'll be honest, i expect TES; Arabian Nights

timber bough
#

I'm not that pessimistic, but I expect VI to shine with its DLC as Bethesda games usually do

obtuse summit
#

tbf, there's not many RPG exploring arabian nights correctly. i don't mind climb around the roof of sentinel city to feel like aladin lol

pastel sorrel
#

I would play the hell out of Hammerfellian Nights.

#

TESA: Redguard 2

obtuse summit
#

still wonder how magic aspect gonna work in hammerfell , something like mystics? magic tent ? magic carpet? 😄

#

or closer to scholarly circle like in abbasid caliphate in islamic era? :think

quartz shuttle
#

I doubt it will be much different

obtuse summit
#

ah right house of wisdom 🤔

quartz shuttle
#

Redguard don't like Magic that much, and most of the magical influences will be from hte old Mages Guild

obtuse summit
#

well nord also not like magic too but look at College of winterhold. it's only old magic institute created by men.

#

shalidor , one of greatest archmage is a nord.

quartz shuttle
#

It's not the ONLY, magical collages are pretty common throughout Highrock, and despite not showing up anywhere in Oblivion, Nibanese Mage Clans are still a thing

#

But the dislike of Magic between modern Nords and Redguard is different. Nords view it as 'Elven' and thus evil.

obtuse summit
#

high rock is half-men, their magic is more like elven legacy. vanus galerion also high elf.

quartz shuttle
#

Redguard view it as dishonorable and the work of liars and deceivers.

#

Well, even Shalidor's type of magic was adopted from Elves

#

So too was that one Dragon Priest who did all the enchanting

obtuse summit
#

i remember for nord its called clevercraft or something.

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah, though we do't have much knowledge of how their earliest Clevermen did their thing

#

All the stuff post-Return is heavily influences by Elves.

obtuse summit
#

nord already have their own magic, coming from dragons. 🤔

#

but it's too time consuming to learn.

#

hmm then why redguard have some mastery of destruction magic skill if they're quite hate magic 🤔

quartz shuttle
#

Because Racials are stipid, and change from game to game anyway

obtuse summit
#

well at least they have intention for skills to have some bit background explanation.

#

tbf, magic is kinda be feared in most common society. heck, IRL if some people could cast fire/ice/lightning from their hand, i'll be scared too.

quartz shuttle
#

Eh, it's no different than half the things we do with science

obtuse summit
#

yeah, if science could do something like oblivion crisis. people will wary of scientist too probably.

#

but probably hammerfell have many reasons too hate magic. thalmor use magic, oblivion crisis and probably magic have something related withsinistral elves.

quartz shuttle
#

Science can build things which can unleash the energy of a newborn star, reducing human being to radioactive vapor.

#

Just saying. Science can do WAY scarier things than anything Magic has done in TES

#

But the Redguard have distrusted Magic since at least the time of Tiber Septim, likely long before

#

It may stem from their early contact with the Left-Handed Elves, or it may be a product of their cultural value on direct martial competition.

obtuse summit
#

Magic seems like only elite class of mer will take benefit most. i mean isn't that why vanus galerion created magic guild?

quartz shuttle
#

Elite's in general

#

Human nobility also benefits a lot from Magic

#

But, prior to the Guild, that was mostly because the wealthy are the ones who can afford all the time needed to study magic.

obtuse summit
#

why imperials seems fine with magic? aren't they have same view "elven culture/creation = evil" through ayleid enslavement?

#

hmm or maybe they just focusing their hate on daedra worship?

quartz shuttle
#

Their entire culture is a synthesis of Altmeri and Nord, since Ayleid culture was the main one known to the Alessian rebels and Nord allies helped in their liberation

#

Many Ayleid cities ALSO fought alongside the Alessians, of course, which probably contributed as well.

obtuse summit
#

cyrodilic seems more "religious" than other race, perhaps because they're center of imperial cult. take on extreme and you got alessians lol.

quartz shuttle
#

The Alessian Order certianly had a hand in that

#

Religious zelots drove out the TRUE Imperial lineage

#

The Empire belongs to the Minotaurs!

obtuse summit
#

sometimes i think morihaus and alessia just symbolic story of unification between nord and nibenesse.

quartz shuttle
#

Belharza, on the other hand, was definitely a Minotaur

obtuse summit
#

beastmen are rightful owner of tamriel.

quartz shuttle
#

And a Dragonborn

obtuse summit
#

i wish there's more inteligent minotaur as npc.

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah

obtuse summit
#

i mean there's strong supermutant in fallout as companion.

#

why not a minotaur? 🤔 or how about female minotaur?

#

female minotaur based on cow? 😄

quartz shuttle
#

Because Minotaurs are only in Oblivion, and Oblivion sucks

obtuse summit
#

there's no minotaur in ESO? at least as normal enemies? 🤔

quartz shuttle
#

Well, there are, and they're shown with more sophistication than in Oblivon. But they're still very much tribal

obtuse summit
#

I remember there's winged minotaur as boss. they seems allied with reachmen.

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah

#

Minotaurs at least got a little love

obtuse summit
#

I still believe they already exist before union between morihaus and alessia.

quartz shuttle
#

It's unclear

uncut hatch
#

Is Elder scrolls lore open to interpretation

brisk perch
#

I'd say most Elder Scrolls lore is open to interpretation, a lot of it is spelled out quite clearly as metaphorical in-game

uncut hatch
#

Ah

inner dock
#

Was there ever a civil war in Elsewyr? I can't recall if I've read something about one or if I just dreamed it.

pastel sorrel
inner dock
#

So that's what Elsweyr looked like basically since it's founding. ^

quartz shuttle
#

Yes

brisk perch
#

The early history of the Khajiit is quite interesting, too, my guess is they were early Bosmer that refused the Green Pact, and were saved by Azura from getting turned into the Ooze, but with a limited set of forms.

#

It's hard to tell whether the Bosmer were native to Tamriel, or came there from the Summerset Isles first

inner dock
#

I just really wanted a reason to post a gif of cats fighting. Sorry for the deception.

brisk perch
#

TBH, it fits either way, plus why some of the furstocks almost never leave Elsweyr, since they're mistaken for housecats

inner dock
#

"May you walk on warm sands" doesn't sound pleasant for non-khajiit.

pastel sorrel
#

That's their fault for not being khajiit.

brisk perch
#

There are jungles, too, but some of the cities are probably less decayed than the time of Skyrim

inner dock
#

The merchants in Skyrim say it if you're wondering why it's ingrained in my memory.

#

I like hanging out with them near Whiterun. The idle conversations are intriguing to me.

white garden
glacial scarab
glacial scarab
quartz shuttle
midnight vector
#

does anyone have a good source I want to learn more about deadic princes and what they do

#

sorry for bad spelling

quartz shuttle
#

UESP is a solid resource, though the Wiki has gotten better as well over the last few years

midnight vector
#

thanks

inner dock
quartz shuttle
austere vapor
#

@stray nacelle all the forms of khajiit

tumblr_inline_ovlpk61G6C1rey9sk_1280.jpg
#

The ones in Arena/Daggerfall were Ohmes, the ones in Morrowind Suthay, and the ones in Oblivion/ Skyrim Cathay

stray nacelle
#

wowow

#

Tojay playable race, when.

dusky scaffold
#

This chart is from Beyond Skyrim, I think
ESO protrays some of them differently

stray nacelle
#

I dislike eso a lot.

dusky scaffold
#

It still is the only official depiction we have for some of them

stray nacelle
#

@austere vapor What about Argonians?

dusky scaffold
#

Argonian variations are different than Khajiit ones, it's basically specific tribes that have a specific "form"
As there are many tribes we haven't encountered or even heard of yet, there may be many forms we don't know about

austere vapor
# stray nacelle <@!528172169000386560> What about Argonians?

Argonians have several different forms that depend on tribe rather than the moons they were born under.

ESO has already shown two other forms of Argonians, Bright-Throats (Look like normal argonians but with a lot more colorful coloring of scales) and Naga (they look more like frogs).

#

In lore there are a lot more of other tribes, though I can only recall the tribe that has winged argonians

dusky scaffold
#

Veeskhleel are paler than regular Argos

stray nacelle
#

and what about humans? there any variation there?

austere vapor
#

I think there's also a tribe that straight up looks like humanoid frogs, even more so than Naga

#

Well, humans vary by races like mer

dusky scaffold
#

I think Naga are supposed to resemble puff adders

austere vapor
#

Atmorans, Nords, Yokudans, Redguards, Nedes, Imperials, Kothringi, Akaviri

dusky scaffold
#

Now don't ask me what a puff adder is, I just remember reading that somewhere

dusky scaffold
austere vapor
stray nacelle
#

dog race though?

austere vapor
dusky scaffold
austere vapor
dusky scaffold
#

There were the Lilmothiit, that were vulpine (fox-like), but died in the knahaten flu

stray nacelle
#

died is irrelevent

dusky scaffold
#

Topal the Pilot is said to have encountered "Bird-men" when he first sailed to the isles that now house the Imperial City

stray nacelle
#

cause bethesda can make the era whatever they want.

#

also dwarves!!!!!

#

whennnnn can we get dwarvessss?

dusky scaffold
dusky scaffold
stray nacelle
#

i want real dwarves dangit

#

doesnt a dwarf show up in morrowind?

dusky scaffold
#

Yes

#

He's not in the best of shapes, though
then there's also dwarven spectres

stray nacelle
#

yeah, i think i heard about that in the game, but never got there.

#

are they actual dwarves though?

dusky scaffold
stray nacelle
#

like lord of the rings, etc?

dusky scaffold
#

well, they have beards, but they don't appear especially short nor stocky

stray nacelle
#

you can't say that, hes making himself taller with those.

dusky scaffold
#

I'm talking about the spectres

stray nacelle
#

oh

dusky scaffold
#

nope, not particularly shorter, maybe half a head

unknown.png
quartz shuttle
#

To a giant, which is where the word originated.

stray nacelle
#

maybe

#

morrowind had limitations. >>

quartz shuttle
#

All games do. However, Morrowind did hae shorter enemies, so if they wanted Dwarves to be short, they could have easily done so

stray nacelle
#

maybeee there are shorter dwarves! yeah, that's it!

#

these were probably the tallest sub-race!

dusky scaffold
#

I think it's pretty established that TES dwarves weren't small

#

They also have regular-sized furniture and armor

stray nacelle
#

that's only because the dwarves didn't wanna make the craftsmen build things just for them, that's why dwarves were so nice.

dusky scaffold
#

I doubt we'll ever see a living dwarven civilisation, though

quartz shuttle
#

Being absorbed into a giant metal god of your own construction does tend to be bad for a continuing civilisation, yes.

stray nacelle
#

but, before.

#

there could be a timeline before they were doing the oofs

#

being in the dwarven places in skyrim was soooooo coooool

#

wish i could play skyrim for the first time again.

gaunt bear
pastel sorrel
#

The dwemer were basically just dunmer-height, they were only called dwarves because of the nearby giants calling them dwarves.

gusty hare
#

Dwarfs is what giants called them

pastel sorrel
#

@gusty hare Literally there was a whole conversation about that already :v

gusty hare
#

Oh I didnt see that point being made

stray nacelle
#

maybe they got shorter in the future.

quartz shuttle
#

Shorter and broader

cursive orbit
#

lore

quartz shuttle
#

Is really just a recommendation at this point.

quartz shuttle
#

It's a guilty pleasure, i know... But i want the Empire to survive.

#

I want to play through a desperate last stand, defending Sentinel from the Aldmeri Dominion's renewed assault, as allies grow thin and the city becomes desperate. The crack of magic as it splits stone, the sounds of battle raging... And then, on the hills, to see the banners of the Red Diamond. The Legions, mustered and strong. To hear the thunder of hooves as Imperial Cavalry charge into the valley.

#

I want to feel the ground quake, and the Winged Hussars thrumb in my head, as the Empire comes, not as a conqueror, but as a savior. Fulfilling the role that all Empires should. That of protector, rather than parasite.

#

But more than that... I want a scene to not only rival the Charge of the Rohirim, but instead surpass even the real world in it's scope and impact. I want to see 20,000 and more cavalry barreling down a hill into the Dominion rear line, a force of such weight and fury that no line of battle, no amount of pikes, no formation or strategy or heroisim could possibly turn it aside. A tide of flesh and steel and wrath that no force could hope to stop.

#

I want a cavalry charge to make Sentinel shake with fear even as they are saved from annihilaton, and the Empire is the only one that can give it to me.

#

Because, as much as a sympathise with Elves... I'll be damned if i side with the Thalmor, or want them to seize that gory.

#

And i'll be entirely honest. I don't give a rats ass if we have to sacrifice control for a cutscene to get it

ocean brook
#

the scary part is how much I agree with your sentiments here, in their entirety

quartz shuttle
quartz shuttle
#

It's less a matter of their defeat, and more a general dissatisfaction with the portrayal of conflicts in fantasy fiction.

#

Like... The Rohirim at Pelanor Fields. It's magnificent. And yet... The largest real world cavalry charge was THREE TIMES THAT SIZE

#

The Battle of the Red Ring during the Great War, for instance, consisted of every standing Legion. If we only take the Numbered Legions we know of, and not the special legions like the Frostmoth Legion.. And totally ignore the potential for auxiliaries...

You're looking at 90,000 soldiers on the Imperial side ALONE.

#

Give me something of SCALE vehk darn it

#

If you can't show it, at least mention it. Make it known you understand the numbers you're dealing with

#

Which can still work. Highly trained professionals against loose 'Warrior' cultures, or use of strategic points can allow considerably smaller forces to triumph over larger. The last battle of the Boudica rebellion, or the Battle of Sterling Bridge are examples of both.

#

I suppose my main issue is... History is full of epic battles to draw inspiration from... But you still need to maintain an understanding of the scale of the battle, and the space it takes place in

#

The Red Ring is a great example. It's clearly written to sound epic and amazing. But what we got was just rubbish

#

We have no idea of the forces involved, no sense of the size of the field, and no notion of the loss. No legion was above half strength afterward, sure... But how many legions were there? Were they 100 men each? 1000? 10,000? We don't know.

#

Was Chorral 2km away? 100? 500? No clue, ebcause no one's bothered to give us any sense of the size of the world

#

It's less nitpicking, and more a matter of worldbuilding

#

When you start teleporting entire armies across hundreds of Kilometers, or have unexplained reinforcements materialise in a forest for no reason other than "The plot needs them", you undermine the grounding nature of the worldbuilding.

gaunt bear
#

@quartz shuttle Party pooper.

quartz shuttle
#

Sometimes.

quartz shuttle
#

I want my epic fantasy battles, but darn it, i want them to at least TRY to make sense

ocean brook
#

making sense is not sensible in writing fantasy; it reveals that many fantasy writers have no common sense at all

#

🙂

quartz shuttle
#

Also, that "Military Genius' " are usually pretty dumb

#

Average military genius in fiction Alright men! Everyone charge the walls with ladders, all at once!

#

The overal point, in a very round about way, of course, is that... A lot of this stuff has already been done.

#

Just, look at some real battles, take inspiration from them, and gussy it up.

#

I used the Seige of Vienna as an example of inspiration for the hypothetical Siege of Sentinel, for instance.

#

Of course, the Dominion isn't likely to be fielding Ottoman Bombards and Janissaries, but you can still have things like the tunnel bomb, and the arrival of the reliving army.

#

In this case, the Empire, instead of the Holy League.

split pond
quartz shuttle
#

I mean, they tried to do castle seiges in Skyrim, and they were pathetic

eager forum
#

Hay guys. I'm in a rp and how would I write out enchanting? Any tips? alchemy is way easier to work with lol. But enchanting dose not have much to go off of. Any tips.

Oh also I didn't think of a better place to ask this so I'd figured this was the best place

quartz shuttle
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Magic in general is very poorly explained in TES. We have references to actual Spells like we see in-game, but also Magic being an expression of willpower and forcing change on the world.

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So, ultimately, there is not really anything in-lore regarding how it functions.

quartz shuttle
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If i were to approach it, i'd say you take a set spell, and use the Magicka contained in that spell to transcribe it on the item.

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Spells being pre-designed magical matrices which elicit a specific result.

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Basically Spells are Consumer Magic, while most enchanting is applying that Consumer Magic to an item

gusty hare
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Skyrim's enchanting system is horribly explained

quartz shuttle
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Oblivion and Morrowind's is no better

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Morrowind and Daggerfall's 'system' is explained as "Give it to this dude, he'll do it for you" and Oblivio's is "Put it on this table, it'll do it for you"

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Thatst about as deep as the Lore explanation gets.

ocean brook
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Daggerfall and Morrowind both had "enchantment points" for the various objects you could enchant, indicating that there were some limits to how big of an enchantment you could put on a particular item

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this was affected by the size of the object and the materials from which it was made; ebony and daedric, for example, held way more of an enchantment than iron or steel

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that changed moving on to Skyrim, obviously, but for a time it was a thing that existed

quartz shuttle
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True, but there wasn't really any rhyme or reason to it. It scaled in the same way Item Stats did, so was really more of a power scaling than anything

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It wasn't so much "This material holds enchantments better than this one" it was more of a "We don't want you putting god-enchants on Iron weapons at level 5"

ocean brook
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we can derive some logic behind it

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look, for example, at the enchanting values for the jewelry

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compared to the armors, you packed a lot of magic punch into a much smaller item when it came to amulets, torcs, and rings

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this suggests that gold and gems have a strong enchantment value

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heck, you can even enchant certain gems directly, and their enchantment values are on par with the high end armor pieces

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which would make sense given that we use gems to trap souls in elder scrolls

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. . . as well as tomatoes, apparently >.>

quartz shuttle
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While i think there SHOULD be such a dynamic, i'd be hesitant to say that we can infer it in-universe from the gameplay mechanics

ocean brook
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. . . I don't quite follow you. the gameplay mechanics are tied to items in the game universe. we can see which items have higher enchantment values.

quartz shuttle
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They SHOULD be, sure. But how much they are is always dubious

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I mean, just look at Armour. The existence of Light, Medium and Heavy either indicates an entirely different material behaviour, or... well, a total detachment between Gameplay and the Universe

ocean brook
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or a lack of understanding about how armor actually works, yeah

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but how does that affect enchantment values?

quartz shuttle
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Because it shows that there is a general disconnect between gameplay, and the actual world, so we can't take things at face value. As such, just because a mechanic exists do to X, doesn't mean X actually exists in universe.

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Unless we can find a written mention of it from an in universe source

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Even if the setting is probably better served by X's existence.

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The only limitation we have in-universe mention of is the restriction on number of Enchantments. Typically 1, though Dragons apparently knew how to do 2.

ocean brook
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. . . I get the feeling we jumped from Daggerfall to Skyrim

quartz shuttle
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I'm talking on the whole here.

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There's no in-universe mention of those Enchanting limits in Daggerfall or Morrowind. The only time we have an in-universe mention of a restriction is in Skyrim.

ocean brook
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except the gameplay in Skyrim itself contradicts that in universe mention

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you can enchant an item with two effects, and certain effects are, themselves, the combination of two effects

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certain artifacts or Dwarven made items can surpass even that, if I remember

quartz shuttle
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Wonderful timing Discord...

robust lintel
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I kinda like how they have left it open-ended. We have some understanding of it, but it can be gradually unfolded as the timeline goes on with some interesting questlines and events.
Kinda like how in real life there are some things we have somewhat an understanding of, but still a lot to learn about it.

quartz shuttle
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From a mechanical sense, it makes sense not to explain it in-universe, in case you have to change it in a future game

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For instance, enchanting in ESO is totally different

robust lintel
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True, but I've seen things change even after they were explained, it's not too difficult to write it in.

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I like to think of like even the characters in-game don't fully understand it themselves and are still learning about it as they work with and study it. Like us in some areas.

quartz shuttle
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Which can work in some things, but when you're dealing with what is essentially craftsmanship...

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A craftsman not understanding how they make something doesn't hold up for very long

robust lintel
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You can understand actions, reactions and results. But it doesn't necessarily mean you can explain it right down to an exact science. We struggle with this too and our methods change as we learn more about the subject.

quartz shuttle
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I suppose... Yeast and all...

robust lintel
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Like I might if I do this, that will be the result and I might even be able to somewhat explain the how and why regarding the step. But it doesn't mean I possess all-knowing knowledge on the subject as a whole, like where it comes from.

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Success is often learned after much failure.

quartz shuttle
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It gets a little more complicated though when you're effectively dealing with Science

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Because, in TES, Magical Inquiry and Science are one in the same.

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When you've got entire schools of academics trying to push and understand the nature of the world and it's behaviours, no one actually knowing how you make the sword glow is kind of... Silly

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Not necessarily unreasonable, as it's possible (though unlikely). Just, silly.

robust lintel
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No, I'm sure they can explain how and why it glows thru the actions. I just mean the area of study as a whole, in it's entirety.

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There are lots of things we understand and can explain, but still learning much everyday in various subjects of study.

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Only way I would see not being able to explain the steps well is if it is an incredibly delicate and greatly complex process, and often unstable results.

quartz shuttle
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This is all reminding me of that Lightsaber discussion again...

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Overall point being, if you're TRYING to explain it in your fanfiction, tabletop game of Mod, you basically have free reign to make up whatever you want, becaue the Setting it's self does not have one

robust lintel
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Fanfiction or not it's just different storytellers

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Even we say the sky is blue. It doesn't announce itself as being blue, we just decided that.

quartz shuttle
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Well, we created a description for it's quality, and then eventually discovered why it exhibited those qualities.

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It's a touch different than making something,

robust lintel
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Yes, our communication with each other

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Tho I doubt a bird cares what color a sky is

quartz shuttle
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Making beer or bread would be a better analogy. We didn't totally understand how fermentation worked until the 1600s, despite making bread and alcohols since about 5000bce

robust lintel
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Yes

quartz shuttle
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But the initial question was how you'd explain it in RP, and the simple response is "We don't know" so you have free reign to make it up for what you need.

dusky scaffold
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"You take the magic, put it into your hand, and then slam it into the item. Easy as that"

robust lintel
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Totally forgot the question, but yes in that case it would solely be up to the storyteller

split pond
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There might not be a single in-universe explanation for enchanting, not when Alduin and Numidium are turning time and space into half-baked lasagna, the Daedric Princes all having entirely different ideas on what reality should be, and the Towers failing.

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Jyggalag would love to have just one method for enchanting, though.

inner dock
ocean brook
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enchanting is the fine art of convincing an inanimate object that it is really a person - and all it does in their life is cast this one or two specific spells

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😛

eager forum
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This is what I came up with.

Screenshot_20220308-212728.png
quartz shuttle
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Good for me

robust lintel
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Frankensword

quartz shuttle
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Something that's come up AGAIN online... Why do people seem to fixate on Arngier's speculation about Alduin's possible return, but totally ignore Paarthrunax' finality about him being gone forever?

dusky scaffold
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paarthy says he's gone forever?

quartz shuttle
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"So, it is done. Alduin dilon. The Eldest is no more, he who came before all others, and has always been."

dusky scaffold
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I don't see anything in there specifying finality

quartz shuttle
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He also says "But I cannot celebrate his fall. Zu'u tiiraaz ahst ok mah. He was my brother once. This world will never be the same"

dusky scaffold
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Maybe a "different" Alduin will return, who has the same powers and responsibilities, but none of the characteristcs and memories

quartz shuttle
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That's a big stretch i think

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Especially when he says "The Eldest is no more"

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On it's own, it's pretty final, but when combined with Khajiiti myth (where Alduin is a specific son of Akha and not an aspect) it's even moreso,.

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Paarthurnax also says

"Perhaps. At least it will continue to exist. Grik los lein. And, as you told me once, the next world will have to take care of itself. Ful nii los. Even I cannot see past Time's ending"

Further implying that Alduin is no longer part of the equation

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Since it was his duty to shepherd the next world into being.

gaunt bear
gaunt bear
quartz shuttle
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Eeeeh... maybe.

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We never get Alduin's motivation for changing, and there's enough other information to lead to a few different conclusions

gaunt bear
quartz shuttle
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Terrible, terrible quote.

gaunt bear
quartz shuttle
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Power is power, it has no corrupting qualities. It just attracts those who are already corrupt.

gaunt bear
quartz shuttle
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But Alduin didn't seek his position. It was given to him upon his creation as a necessity of Mundus

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So him rejecting what is the entire core of his existence is... strange. Unless something else was going on.

gaunt bear
quartz shuttle
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And that's the problem. Lots of clues, but none of them really fit a cohesive story.

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Dawnguard added a further wrench to the mix, with the idea that you can create Prophecies simply by believing them hard enough...

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Which raises the question. Which came first, the Dragonborn Prophecy, or Alduin's Tyranny?

gaunt bear
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Most likely Alduin’s Tyranny. Remember, there have been 12 worlds that preceded our own, and each one was destroyed by Alduin before this one was created from the remnants.

quartz shuttle
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Eeeh, also unknown. Were the 12 world 12 Kalpas? Or were they attempts at creation BEFORE the Mundus?

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And even then, the nature of the Prophecy calls that conclusion into question. The Wheel Turns on the Last Dragonborn. It is the Dragonborn the Wheel turns on, not Alduin. Which means Alduin doesn't get to decide if the Kalpa turns or not.

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So, without the Dragonborn, he can't even hope to end the world.

gusty hare
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Alduin in skyrim didn't get the justice he deserved

quartz shuttle
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Name a TES villian who did

quartz shuttle
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Even Dagoth Ur had a pretty uninspiring payoff. A fight you can literally just run pass, make 3 attacks on the Heart, and boom. Done.

gusty hare
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Mannimarco didnt in oblivion but his eso version made it up big time

robust lintel
quartz shuttle
robust lintel
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Yes everyone is capable. But ice cream won't corrupt in the same way be given power would I don't think.

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I think it's more temptation in the power than the power itself tho.

quartz shuttle
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In practice, yes, probably everyone. Though in principle the possibility remains for someone who isn't. The trick is in striking the balance between corrupt tendencies and actual good will.

robust lintel
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Anyone is capable of murder and just because they don't act on it at one moment in time doesn't guarantee they won't at a later moment

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I don't really believe in the whole good-bad souls thing.

quartz shuttle
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Good and bad are artificial concepts, so no, i don't believe in them either

robust lintel
quartz shuttle
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Arngier's statement is really just so they could maybe bring Alduin back at any time if they wanted to

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It's not the statement of absolute fact so many people seem to take it as

robust lintel
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I mean you can have several good ideas on one topic that all make sense in their own way, but I don't really know what the official way would be. That's just up to breeze of Bethesda as we are in the middle of the TES story awaiting TESVI

robust lintel
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I mean a piano could fall on the last Dragonborn's head, but that doesn't guarantee it will happen

gaunt bear
robust lintel
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And that's just fine

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Personally I think some people see what they want to see or will find a way to make it fit how they want to

gaunt bear
robust lintel
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Exactly, it's just me, you, etc. If karma was real then it fails terribly. There's enough unresolved injustice in the world to fill it 12 times over. Lol

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Simply put, it's just a motion of actions we take it upon ourselves to define as good or bad.

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But otherwise meaningless

gaunt bear
robust lintel
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I'm still waiting for the world to end like everyone has been false prophesizing at different times since 2k. 😄

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By the way, do they have crawdads or something of the like in Argonia?

robust lintel
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Back to sword-singing redguards and hammerfell theories. Being that they have advantaged stamina over other races and can sustain. Do you think we might see special chained attacks?

quartz shuttle
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Do you mean, like attacking with a chain, or stringing attack together?

robust lintel
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Stringing

gaunt bear
robust lintel
quartz shuttle
robust lintel
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It was just a thought. I was thinking of how you could learn special attacks and make your own chain attacks to perform, chain them together however you want for customability

robust lintel
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From a militant standpoint, I would think the next target of the Thalmor would be High Rock in order for the inevitable destruction of the Empire. High Rock is doing surprisingly well in 4th era. Orsinium has been pushed into Hammerfell. Skyrim is locked in a civil war with the Empire itself. Valenwood and Elsweyr already ceded to the Thalmor, Argonia was lost to the Empire after Oblivion and Hammerfell was renounced from the Empire and most of Southern Hammerfell left devasted.

quartz shuttle
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Depends on what happens in the mean time. If the Empire actually pulls forces off the border to deal with Skyrim, they may take their chance to either invade Cyrodiil while the Legion is out of position, or re-try Hammerfell when the Empire is least likely to try and intervene

split pond
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Skyrim should be safe with the Dragonborn and the Ebony Warrior currently in there, no matter who wins the civil war. They should have allowed Miraak to be freed to give the Thalmor another headache to deal with.

pastel sorrel
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He wasn't there to play politics, he had his own goals of domination

split pond
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I think it's fine as long as he kills Thalmor.

On another note, who claims a Nightingale Dragonborn, Norturnal or Mora?

pastel sorrel
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Nocturnal, though Mora would probably still try to fight for it.

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We never made any actual deal with Mora, but he definitely wants us.

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As for the Thalmor... they're a handful of scattered agents this far from Skyrim. It's not a matter of "well some people will be collateral damage but as long as he fights the Thalmor"

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it's "the Thalmor are going to be the collateral damage, it's everyone who's screwed".

split pond
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That's where the Dragonborn comes in. They lure the Thalmor and Miraak to each other and make sure both prioritize the other's extermination first.
It's similar to what I mentioned about Alduin and leading him to the Thalmor Embassy.
Yeah, I know, both scenarios are implausible, but fun to imagine.

plain ibex
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I have a question regarding daedric blacksmithing, Why aren't daedric crescents still a thing? I know the emperor had them all destroyed following the fall of the battlespire but couldn't the dremora or other talented blacksmiths just... Make more? Was there anything special or irreplicable about them compared to other daedric weapons?

pastel sorrel
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Ostensibly more could be made

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They just haven't, or have elsewhere but we haven't seen them yet.

quartz shuttle
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As far as Daedric Crescents go, they've never been seen again outside the forces armed by Dagon in the Battlespire. Mortals don't know how they were made (but presumably found out how to destroy them) and no other Prince or Dagon have decided to recreate them.

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Since Daedric crafting in general requires binding lesser spirits to things, it's possible that the spirits used we very rare

dusky scaffold
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There was one, in Morrowind

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there are other Dagons?

quartz shuttle
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Locked away in a hidden area with a Dremora Lord guarding it, yes.

robust lintel
quartz shuttle
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It depends on what their objectives in Hammerfell were originally, and whether or not they accomplished them.

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It may be more beneficial for them to not invade anyone at present, and continue poking holes in the Empire. If the Legion has to deal with Skyrim, inciting rebellion in High Rock through the Direnni legacy may be their next option, instead of an actual invasion.

robust lintel
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Back to High Rock, one thing I did notice was the corsairs overtook Wayrest. But after reading the information on that battle, it just came off a bit odd like I don't really know what's going on there in that situation based on the actions of the king.

But back to the corsairs, do you think we might ever see them begin to group up actually become a significant threat in High Rock? TESVI: Black Flag, lol

robust lintel
quartz shuttle
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That is the most straight forward motivation, yeah

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But Southern Hammerfell is also where the bulk of the Dwemer ruins are.

robust lintel
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I think the Thalmor deliberately asked the Empire for it in the treaty because they knew Hammerfell would reject it and end up bring renounced from the Empire. It was a very clever political move on Thalmor's part

robust lintel
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I just wonder if the Orcs are gonna make another attempt to re-establish territory in High Rock. Typically Hammerfell and High Rock gang up on them, but now that Hammerfell is no longer a part of the Empire and in recovery from warring with the Thalmor, it might just be High Rock this time. So High Rock might have that to deal with along with whatever else may take a stab at them. I know the orcs were close to getting provincial status at some point in the 3rd era, perhaps they will finally obtain it. Of course, they have their own happenings with internal religious conflict, so Malacath/Trinimac could very well make an appearance.

robust lintel
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With High Rock, my guess would be piracy problems as the main issue both within and possibly from Akavir, again. Like how Skyrim was dragons and Cyrodiil with the Daedra portals

kindred temple
robust lintel
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They've built there three times, for whatever reason they seem to favor the area or just incredibly stubborn, lol

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But typically they have some ground between both High Rock and Hammerfell, so I can see them expanding again at some point

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I was also thinking about how the Akaviri want to invade Tamriel again when the time is right. The thing is, Thalmor also want Tamriel. Do you think the two would join together on the Empire or the Empire try to strike a deal with Akaviri forces to form an alliance against the Thalmor? I wasn't sure exactly how the Akaviri felt about the Thalmor, if anything. I remember Thalmor slaughtered a lot of Blades though.

quartz shuttle
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The Akaviri are Men. The Thalmor would never work with them.

kindred temple
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The Akaviri is a general term for all sentient races on Akavir. They Men of Akavir are gone.

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The specific race that wants to invade Tamriel--according to Mysterious Akavir anyway--is the Ka Po' Tun.

quartz shuttle
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The Kamal and Tsaesci have both invaded in the past, and turned out to be Men as far as we can tell.

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The Ka Po'tun may invade, but only after they conquer the Tsaesci. Which we have no reason to suggest they have.

kindred temple
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I'm not sure what the assumption that the Kamal are merely Men is based off of. The Tsaesci certainly look like Men, but everything we're given seems to imply they are more than just Men.

quartz shuttle
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The Kamal invasion was literally in living memory of ESO, and no one anywhere makes any mention of their unusual or inhuman nature.

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Jacob's Teapot. We have the perfect situation to find any evidence of them being unique,special or otherwise unusual, and we have zero evidence of it.

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The Akaviri as a whole have been just one disappointment after another, ever since Oblivion decided to half-ass a quest about them

kindred temple
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Here's hoping they don't fumble the Tang Mo if they ever physically introduce them.

quartz shuttle
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I am expecting Tiger coloured Khajiit, and nothing more.

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Well, that's not true... Not NOTHING more... Tacky Chinese loan styles.

kindred temple
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Tang Mo is the monkey-people. I already expect the Ka Po' Tun to just be more tiger-ish Khajiit. Probably all of them being Pahmar-raht sized.

quartz shuttle
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Oh, right. I read that wrong.

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My bad. For the Tang Mo, i expect Imga. Except... They won't even give us Imga, so it may not even be that good.

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Could be something as bad as just hairy Bosmer.

kindred temple
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Gosh, the Imga conveniently hiding during the Planemeld was such a bad reason for them to be absent from the game.

quartz shuttle
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I mean, all of Valenwood is such a dumpster fire in that game, they could jsut retcon the whole affiar

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Considering how good the rest of the provinces are, how spectacularly lame Valenwood is... Is just staggering.

robust lintel
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I thought Tsaesci were snake-like or something

robust lintel
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Isn't one supposed to be a dragon or something. A big cat dragon lol

inner dock
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I will post a gif of how I'd like to be able to make a Khajiit look in a future game. I would like to know if there's lore preventing it.

dusky scaffold
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Ka Po' Tun

robust lintel
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Ye the ka-pows are the tiger-like race right?

dusky scaffold
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Ka Po' Tun means Tiger-Dragon Empire

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we do not know how much of snake the tsaesci really are, or how much of tiger the ka po tun really are

inner dock
dusky scaffold
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what we do know, however, is that there were tsaesci skeletons at pale pass that looked like human ones, that a tsaesci scout had its legs crushed (by thier own report), and that a humanoid ghost has appeared to the people of hakoshae, who claim to have tsaesci ancestors

robust lintel
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Do they even have normal tigers and snakes in elder scrolls? Besides on ESO..

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So we're khajiit ever human or just straight-up beastfolk?

dusky scaffold
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we've only seen sabre cats and sabretooth tigers, as well as mountain lions

robust lintel
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Cause I'm getting the picture that akaviri are basically humans that have morphed into more animal-like appearances, yet still noticeably human too

dusky scaffold
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in arena, they looked very human-like, and I think in daggerfall, too

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in daggerfall, they had a tail, but otherwise didn't look that differetn from a human

robust lintel
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I'm just trying picture what they were aiming for in design of the race besides the Asian aesthetic

dusky scaffold
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keep in mind that the ones who designed the first khajiit were different people than those who have evolved them into the feline race we currently know

robust lintel
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Oh a tail, so yea, kinda what I was thinking of in mind. But I figure it would look a lil different today

dusky scaffold
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and I think for the akaviri their goal is just "be mysterious"

robust lintel
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You can have a bit of them or their homeland in there, but still keep it mysterious not giving too much. I mean we get dwememer ruins all over, even met a living dwemer, and they still mysterious

dusky scaffold
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the last living dwarf was certainly not in his prime

robust lintel
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Another idea is the animal-like description of akaviri races and yet still appearing human. Could they possibly have transform abilities which is why they get these descriptions yet being man.

dusky scaffold
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possibly
we do not know

split pond
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Who among Skyrim's current Jarls/replacement Jarls are most suited to become High King or Queen? Balgruuf? Ulfric? Brina? Idgrod?

quartz shuttle
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Balgruff, i think. Though it's collectively a pretty low bar.

robust lintel
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Kinda wish I could make anyone High King/Queen, just so I can hand that title over to Barbas (:

gaunt bear
inner dock
#

Time for the weekly Khajiit Civil War.

robust lintel
gaunt bear
#

…cute.

fringe heath
golden sierra
# robust lintel So we're khajiit ever human or just straight-up beastfolk?

tl;dr the Khajiit were originally most likely Old Ehlnofey who, either way, basically kept uncontrollably shapeshifting. some of these created the Green Pact with Y'ffre to become the Bosmer, now sworn not to harm the forest or forsake their shape. others were blessed by Azura to be Khajiit, and have an array of shapes (the 16+1 Furstocks), based on the phases of the moon. others rejected both, and remained what eventually became known as changelings, although those are primarily located in Valenwood iirc; i can't think of any instances of changelings being mentioned in Elsweyr, really

#

the shared ancestry is most clearly shown with the Ohmes furstock, which looks pretty much identical to a Bosmer. however, the shared origin of the Bosmer and Khajiit primarily comes from the Khajiit creation myth, which, if memory serves, is titled Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi or something along those lines

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further information can be found in the series detailing the Spirits of Amun-Dro (Adversarial Spirits, Sky Spirits, etc) and various Bosmeri sources, such as The Ooze

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Old Ehlnofey, for reference, are the ancestors to the elves; they were either the Aldmer, or the precursor to the Aldmer. it's kinda blurry

golden sierra
# robust lintel Do they even have normal tigers and snakes in elder scrolls? Besides on ESO..

housecats were canonized as early, possibly earlier idk, as PGE1:

According to the native tradition, a khajiit born while Masser is full and Secunda a thin crescent will grow to be a cathay-raht, one of the aforementioned jaguar-men, while one born under the opposite conditions will be little more than an intelligent house-cat.

  • PGE1
    which released concurrently to TES: Redguard, which takes place in the late 2nd Era (think Tiber's time) and is the game between Daggerfall and Morrowind
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meanwhile, snakes are very frequently referenced in metaphysics, so finding an example that is both very clearly not meant to be metaphysical or indicates that snakes live in Tamriel, yet isn't ESO...

that sounds difficult 😛

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it doesn't help it's used as a metaphor, both irl and in-universe

dusky scaffold
#

Redguard is where a lot of the "modern" lore was created

robust lintel
golden sierra
#

🤔 huh, interesting. i'd thought of Morrowind as basically the turning point to 'modern' TES lore

dusky scaffold
#

well, Redguard wasn't really successfull, so Morrowind was the first game many players came into contact with modern lore

golden sierra
#

ahh, fair, fair

#

cool to have that in mind, thank you for putting it that way

wet forge
#

On a similar note. I understand orcs used to be elves before Malacath warped them into his likeness, but what kind of elves were they? A separate species or just any elf who worshipped him?

pastel sorrel
#

It's Trinimac's followers who were warped, and most of the elves around worshipping him would've been Aldmer or Altmer.

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Also of note, they're still elves. They're the Orsimer, after all.

wet forge
pastel sorrel
#

... no

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Some individuals will see them as beasts and one or two cultures might more often call them betmer than actual mer, but in general they're recognized as fellow mer

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Not necessarily fellow in the friendly sense, but still.

wet forge
#

Just saying. Racism is big thing in ES lore. Many races hate each other for various reasons, the Altmer above the rest

pastel sorrel
#

I'm very well aware of that

dusky scaffold
#

So, seeing them as fellow elves doesn't really count for much xD

pastel sorrel
#

I'm very well aware of quite a large portion of the lore, including the parts you just asked about. Racists are gonna racist, that's not groundbreaking information to anyone, but that doesn't mean they're not still mer to them.

#

They derived from Trinimac's own followers, after all. And not all of them worship Malacath.

#

Just the same, the Altmer do beef with the Dunmer for many reasons, but they're still mer to them.

dusky scaffold
#

"Of course they're mer. But they aren't Altmer, so they're all inferior as all the other races"

wet forge
#

It just feels weird that anything can be an elf in this universe. Orcs are elves, dwarves are elves... Even Bretons are technically elves. Humans and beastmen are minorities in Tamriel

pastel sorrel
#

Bretons are not elves

#

They were half-elves long, long ago in their history, but they're like 99% mannish now and have been for quite a while

#

There's barely any elven blood in the whole genepool, it's mainly Nords, Imperials and Redguards around. The Direnni basically only exist on Balfiera and they keep to themselves for the most part.

#

Humans are not minorities by any stretch, i'm not sure where you're getting that idea. They're actually the majority of Tamrielic races still around by this point.

#

Two major beasts races, three elven, four mannish (really five if you're based enough to count Colovians and Nibenese separately).

dusky scaffold
#

Four elven

pastel sorrel
#

Oh yeah, four elven.

wet forge
#

That’s only because Cyrodiil is the capital

pastel sorrel
#

So?

dusky scaffold
#

There's still the argument about whether Reachmen are their own race, too

pastel sorrel
#

Oh they absolutely are, they're like multiple groups really

#

I was just talking about the major playable races

wet forge
#

Skyrim is sparsely populated, Hammerfell more so, and Raven Rock is tiny

pastel sorrel
#

Elves aren't exactly populous outside of the Bosmer either

#

And maybe the Dunmer to a lesser extent

dusky scaffold
#

I don't think hammerfell is that sparsely populated, and why do you bring up Raven Rock?

pastel sorrel
#

It's practical an epithet in-universe that the Bosmer breed like men do.

#

Which then indicates that men are a lot more populous

wet forge
pastel sorrel
#

wh-

dusky scaffold
#

Men breed faster, but Mer line longer

pastel sorrel
#

You're thinking of High Rock dude

#

Raven Rock is the big island off of Morrowind's north and Skyrim's east coast

wet forge
#

High Rock...

dusky scaffold
wet forge
#

I'm tired and I had a drink

pastel sorrel
#

High Rock is not tiny by any stretch either

quartz shuttle
dusky scaffold
pastel sorrel
#

By land area it's even bigger than the Summerset Isles

wet forge
#

YOu AiN't Ma PaPa!!

pastel sorrel
#

And it's not a hellhole in the center so more of its land would be populated

quartz shuttle
#

Seriously though, do NOT Hydration fast. It's a terrible idea.

pastel sorrel
#

Hammerfell likewise is probably populated just fine, they're just almost all out at the edges where there's water

dusky scaffold
quartz shuttle
#

More to the point, High Rock is the only province we even have population numbers of any sort for.

#

Towards teh end of the 3rd Era, Daggerfall had a population of 110,000, putting it's pop in the upper ranges for medieval Europe

pastel sorrel
#

Reminder also that according to the Toddhead himself, the TES1 manual's figures for Tamriel's size and population are still more or less accurate

wet forge
pastel sorrel
#

so Tamriel's pretty chonky and populous overall

dusky scaffold
quartz shuttle
#

The weird thing about it's size, is apparently localisations have different figures. So, it's somewhere between 12 million square km... and 12 million square miles

#

Which is a HUGE range

pastel sorrel
#

Like, not to downplay the threat they pose, but it's still way too early to think they have Tamriel by the balls yet.

#

They still have enemies.

dusky scaffold
#

That's politics, however, not populace

pastel sorrel
#

since that's a more recent figure and it's a direct one.

wet forge
#

At the very least they've sunk their nails into the Cyrodiil governing court. That treaty has essentially reduced them to their puppets

pastel sorrel
#

Again, not really. They've got their claws in, but the Empire's actively resisting them. They don't even enforce the Concordat unless the Thalmor are looking.

#

They have to work behind the scenes still, they're nowhere near in control just yet.

#

It's still early days yet.

dusky scaffold
#

Still, that's politics, you don't really need to have the majority of the populace for that

pastel sorrel
#

War is politics, though.

pastel sorrel
#

What is and is not an elf is pretty clearly defined for the most part. Giants serve as a missing link between the early elves and early men, arguably even closer to the Ehlnofey than the Altmer, but they're ultimately a rare relic of the old days.

wet forge
#

Just speaking my mind. Not expecting everything to make sense on my end either

quartz shuttle
#

I mean, you want weird elves, look at Warcraft

#

Satyrs are Elves. Naga are Elves. Elves are Trolls.

pastel sorrel
#

Also to go back to the OG, Tolkien's orcs are themselves elves, or at least the original orcs were twisted elves. TES's take obviously takes direct inspiration, but also makes it clearer that they are still officially elves.

golden sierra
pastel sorrel
# golden sierra 👀 could i have a source on that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JITgbkbIJG4&t=1401s

YouTube
Bethesda Softworks
Bethesda Game Days – The Elder Scrolls 25th Anniversary Panel

Filmed live at Bethesda Game Days in Boston, members of Bethesda share their favorite memories, answer community questions, and debate how high werewolves should jump. Panel features Todd Howard (Bethesda Game Studios), Matt Firor (ZeniMax Online Studios), Rich Lambert (ZeniMax Online Studios), Emil Pagliarulo (Bethesda Game Studios), and Pete H...

▶ Play video
#

It's during this segment

amber mountain
#

hello! I only just joined this group to ask you all this question, since it seems official forums are a thing of a bygone internet age? I could ask reddit as well, and perhaps I will after this, but anyways. I was wondering what you lore-scholars had to say about this question, since as far as I can find there is no canon explanation for it. What happened to the Khajiit during the void-nights? I suppose I should preface this with a TW for child-death. We know that the void-nights was a span of years where the moons were absent from Nirn's sky, and that Aldmeris took credit for their eventual return, despite any evidence for their involvement in either their absence or their return, and we also know that the physiology of each and every khajiit is dependant on the phases of each moon on the moment of their birth. (I say moment because the moons are in a phase regardless of their visibility in the sky, and not all Khajiit are born at night). So, what do you think happened to all the khajiit kits born during those 2-3 years?

were the moons just invisible, carrying on through their usual cycles, and khajiit newborns were able to take a form without issue during these years? Or, as I've head-canoned it for the last 11 years, were all pregnancies/births of khajiit doomed, resulting either in miscarriages and/or rapid death of the infant shortly after birth? Or do you have another idea other than what I'm suggesting here?
And while we're talking about it, what are you guys' headcanons for the void-nights? personally I'm a void-nights truther and I'll argue that the Thalmor used some obscene magic to veil the moons for a sufficient length of time to send Elsweyr into a panic, only to relent when they thought the khajiit were ready to submit to Aldmeri rule, but obviously there's pretty much 0 in-game evidence to corroborate this, I just think it's an interesting concept

#

Obviously ~2 years of 0 population growth whatsoever would have a massive impact on any given culture, even 100+ years later, and we don't see any reference to it in Skyrim, but that could just be due to the general lack of attention that Elsweyr and Black Marsh usually get in comparison to the rest of the provinces

pastel sorrel
#

The moons disappeared for a while, they came back, the Thalmor claimed responsibility for returning them and convinced Elsweyr to join the Dominion as clients. That's the long and short of it. Also add MK's comment that it was secretly an intentional eugenics experiment and flex on everyone else.

amber mountain
#

MK coming through with the most interesting takes on ES lore as usual

#

do you have a personal headcanon, though? I already know how limited the lore regarding the void-nights is, I only came here to see what other people's thoughts were on the subject

pastel sorrel
amber mountain
pastel sorrel
#

It is what it is.

pseudo sundial
dusky scaffold
#

they didn't change distances in AE at all...

#

even then, this is a lore discussion, and tamriel hasn't suddenly shrunk in lore

pseudo sundial
#

Sorry about that forgot where I was.

topaz dome
#

Hi, Trace! This is a chat for the discussion of Elder Scrolls lore. Please post videos about other games in our #off-topic chat. Thank you. 🙂

gusty hare
#

Hey im wondering if Redguards abhoring the undead and refusing to attack them only is a thing in Hammerfell, and they dont care for other types of undead (at least not fear them)

acoustic quarry
#

yeah i wouldnt like to fight my own bladesinger ancestors either lol

pastel sorrel
#

As far as i'm aware, it's mainly their fellow kin they can't fight as undead (hence the Ash'abah are kept around), assuming their modern values are the same as circa mid-2E and earlier, but who knows how they might naturally extrapolate to the undead of others.

gusty hare
viscid lance
#

Anyone here love Wood Orcs half as much as I do?

uncut hatch
#

I don't know what a Wood Orc is

viscid lance
#

Orcs from Valenwood

#

You can find 4 clans in ESO. They (mostly) all worship Malacath and praise honour and strength, but also favour traits like agility, speed, tree-climbing, etc. Similar to Bosmer but they don't follow the Green Pact and have some different combat techniques.

#

But there's some very cool lore books about them as well from ESO that are worth reading.

gusty hare
viscid lance
#

That's true and of course there's always those who don't subscribe to popular beliefs.

#

In fact I play a Wood Orc in Skyrim who worships Kynareth lol!

#

(And I'm also working on a Wood Orc Imports mod) 👀

#

Maybe I'll share some pictures soon. Tty guys lata byeee

brisk perch
#

I'm not sure on the full lore behind the Wood Orcs, but I think one of the loading screens for The Elder Scrolls Online implies that the Wood Orcs were on Tamriel BEFORE the migrations of other elves from the Summerset Isles...

#

There were already Wood Orcs living in Valenwood when the Elves first arrived from Old Aldmeris. Though there has often been conflict between Orc and Bosmer, they usually share the forest in a tentative truce.

#

I'm guessing there might have been some retroactive continuity/timey wimey wibbly wobbly shenanigans at play here, since has it not been established that Orcs are Elves that were changed when Triminac was consumed by Boethiah? Or does this imply that they might have been relatives of Goblins/other potentially Tamriel-native races that became Elves due to some form of change?

dusky scaffold
#

Well, orcs are generally regarded as elves, but are all orcs elves, or only some? Were all orcs created when boethiah turned trinimac into malacath, or were some around earlier? Or was there no real sudden transformation, and the Altmer were just outcast pariahs (because that's what orsimer actually means, "pariah folk")?

brisk perch
#

The Orcs could have even been the Sinistral Elves of Yokuda, given that the Orichalc Tower was there, and their often association with the metal.

#

I'm guessing it's one of those cases where there are multiple pasts, all of which true, and were merged by some other forces

gusty hare
royal coral
#

Hi! Hope you're all doing well today... So, I was wondering if anyone had a definitive/official answer to this question (Didn't know whether to put this in arena-chat or the lore chat, so I apologize if I chose wrong)... Who is Seth? The Brotherhood of Seth (Involved in the Crypt of Hearts part of game) obviously worships him but, as far as I can find, Seth is never mentioned anywhere else (aside from two or three in-game books referring to the Arena events). There are theories of Seth being Sithis, but I was hoping to find an official answer, whether it be in-universe or real-world (decided to scrap the concept of Seth?) Thank you!

pastel sorrel
#

Most likely just one of the several things left behind as the lore developed later on.

gusty hare
#

Yea its like Ebonarm, a god/deity that was cut from the game

pastel sorrel
#

Ebonarm's in a weird spot because he might actually still be canon to some extent or another. Later lore's poked rather closely at him.

royal coral
slender latch
#

Ebonarm has recently been mentioned again in CC books that where ported.

Fun fact before Morrowind Ebonarm was one of the most popular deities in the lore and fan fiction community. There was large amounts of fan fiction written about him.

gaunt bear
#

Maybe we can have an “Ebonarm” creation club contest.

untold cairn
#

Do we treat CC content as canon?

pastel sorrel
# untold cairn Do we treat CC content as canon?

Cartogriffi, community manager and CC supervisor at Bethesda, already chimed in on this.


I am not an official arbiter of Bethesda lore, but I hope you don't mind if I chime in. Creations are official releases, but it's also understandable that a site like UESP or the Imperial Library would take CC with a grain of salt. We do consider lore implications when reviewing proposals, particularly something trying to heavily enmesh itself into the world. Connections to the world are great, but we also want to avoid anything being too impactful. That is, we want things to fit into the game world, but we're also not looking to greatly expand the lore of the game. With historic items, like artifacts, simply existing can have implications for the lore. Although artifacts in Tamriel do have a habit of disappearing and re-materializing in other places. I believe this was even noted in the description of Chrysamere in Daggerfall.```
untold cairn
prisma sand
#

Are redguards supposed to stop the thalmor invasion of cyro in tesvi?

brisk perch
#

BFG in terms of functionality is similar to a Fatman, only plasma based technology. The Prey suit is a variant of a spacesuit.

gaunt bear
pastel sorrel
proud zodiac
proud zodiac
#

Which is that CC content is official content. So if official content = canon content (the standard, accepted definition) then cc content is canon content

untold cairn
#

Not very good logic

#

There is stuff that clearly doesn't fit in the same world as vanilla / dlc content

dusky scaffold
pastel sorrel
#

The TES5 CC has no non-TES content, it's the F4 CC that does.

#

It's probably pretty safe to assume that if it's obviously not from the intended setting, it's not meant to be canon.

#

Beyond that, it's a canonical grey area.

#

It might be canon, it might not be. If it's referenced later, then you can know right away.

jovial tendon
#

I mean, anyone who has played Fallout 2 can't complain about non-canonical stuff in the Fallout world, that game is basically nothing but easter eggs and pop culture references... Elder Scrolls on the other hand would be more strict

#

Because of Fallout 2 it makes perfect sense for me that the Fallout CC and Atomic Shop can have funny stuff and references and so on

untold cairn
#

Yeah but easter eggs are obviously just inside jokes from the developer and aren't canon

#

Like if we're going off the logic that official content = canon then it's canon that you can clip through walls in skyrim

#

You need to use intuition to differentiate what is intended to be part of the fictional world and what isn't

robust trout
jovial tendon
#

I mean, one sword isn't that bad

#

Fallout 2 had like 150 pop culture references 🙂

ocean brook
split pond
#

How flexible is the canon?

split iris
#

It gets a solid 55 on the CFS

split pond
#

CFS?

royal coral
# split pond CFS?

Never heard this term before either... but I'm just going to take a guess and assume "Canon flexibility scale"? LMK if i'm right please lol

limber dagger
#

So is godhead actually canon or is that a fan theory

pastel sorrel
#

It's been subtly poked at from time to time in the lore

#

There's certainly more UOL texts that talk about it

plush orchid
limber dagger
#

Ok thank you I was confused about that

wispy dock
#

What is the relationship between Akatosh and Alduin?

dapper river
#

Essentially father and son, going by Parthurnaax's discussions with you.

gaunt bear
wispy dock
#

ok

#

thanks

turbid dew
#

Why is Alduin called the firstborn of Akatosh if he as a concept has been around longer than Akatosh himself, who was created to fit the Alessian pantheon?

gaunt bear
pastel sorrel
turbid dew
gaunt bear
split magnet
golden sierra
# turbid dew Why is Alduin called the firstborn of Akatosh if he as a concept has been around...

additionally to what Serithi said, Akatosh predates the existence of the Alessian pantheon according to at least one source, with the god having originally been an Aldmeri one, apparently

Akatosh was an Aldmeri god, and Alessia's subjects were as-yet unwilling to renounce their worship of the Elven pantheon.

  • Shezarr and the Divines
    the second of these is, imo, more likely to be a general usage of "Akatosh" (meaning the Time god, in general, much like how people refer to the Space god, in general, as Lorkhan) than specifically referring to "Akatosh" but may, nonetheless, be noteworthy

Most traces of Akatosh disappeared from ancient Chimer legends during their so-called 'exodus', primarily due to that god's association and esteem with the Altmeri.

  • Varieties of faith...
    furthermore, as mentioned by Serithi, in the Dragon language, the Time god is "Bormahu," or father. ESO further shows us that dragons will use the term "Alkosh" if it's culturally fitting, which implies they're not talking about Akatosh in particular, but rather the grand concept of Time. to put it differently, if you know how Mundus' planets work, they're talking about the Planet, not the Imperial interpretation of that Planet
golden sierra
pastel sorrel
#

I do not recall the source off the top of my head and I wouldn't know where to look for it. I'm pretty sure it's in ESO, probably part of Western Skyrim or maaaaybe Elsweyr.

#

I can remember when we were first talking about it on the UESP discord ages ago, went to further show how far removed from their ancestors modern-day Nords really are despite all their talk of being traditional.

#

They disrespect the Clever Craft their ancestors utilized readily, and they've forgotten aspects of their own pantheon.

#

They didn't necessarily worship Akatosh, but they knew of him.

golden sierra
#

the Seven Fights also come to mind, i suppose

brave kernel
golden sierra
# brave kernel The Akatosh reference in Shezarr and the divines is using his post reconciliatio...

i disagree with this interpretation for a few reasons. Auriel is widely said to have been an Aldmeri king which ascended, which (imo, at least) leads to the idea that Auriel Mantled someone, which means there was a Time god which predated him. furthermore, the Ehlnnofex word for Akatosh is AKHAT, which linguistically flows into either Aka-Tusk or Akatosh (which are very, very similar) better than Auriel; one would expect the first (non-Ehlnofex) names for the Aedric gods to be more closely related to their Ehlnofex names. even further, "Aka" and "Tosh" both mean "Time" and "Dragon" (although i don't recall if Tosh is Ehlnofex 🤔 Aka is, in any case)

now, all of this without that source would be entirely, 100% speculative based mostly upon linguistics and no explicit mention of who Auriel Mantled, but combined with the source, and considering the fact that the Time god is represented in every major religion (which means "Akatosh" as a general term wouldn't be referred to as an originally Aldmeri spirit, as it's present in all religions, including the Nordic religion as you just mentioned)... i find it hard to agree with your interpretation of the passage, personally

ofc, your interpretation may remain however you see fit akkoShrug

brave kernel
#

From the Monomyth Altmeri version: "Anu created Auriel, the soul of his soul. Auriel bled through the Aurbis as a new force, called time."

Auriel is very much the Altmer Time god. To the Altmer one of their kings and the Aedra are the same thing.

Also mantling is not the only path to godhood, so talk of his ascension doesn't necessarily imply any mantling.

golden sierra
#

as far as i'm aware, Mantling is the only path to godhood which has been shown to take the position of one of the 8+1

#

if you have another Walking Way which does lead to taking the position of one of the 8+1, i'd greatly appreciate it, as i've been trying to learn more about the Ways myself foxlaugh

#

(also, there's a lot of other points you failed to address, with the one i think i'm most interested in being: "Akatosh" as a general term makes little sense thanks to all other religions having a Time god)

#

(including the Nords, as you, yourself, mentioned)

brave kernel
#

You mantle specifically to take anothers place, so yes thats how you would take the place of one of the divines. I just don't think talk of Auriels ascension is referring to him mantling anyone else

About Akatosh, there are two things. First Akatosh has been the common term for the time god within the community for pretty much forever. The second is that the author of Shezarr... is aware that his audience are human citizens of the empire and so he uses the Cyrodil name. And I guess there is a third which is that 99.99% of Tamriel doesn't really know that Akatosh, Auriel, and Alduin are the same. So yes the one who would be called Akatosh could be "originally" an elven spirit since Alessia was trying to placate her subjects and the gods they co-opted from their elven masters

#

I really shouldn't be doing this from my phone. Results in too many edits 😅

golden sierra
#

You mantle specifically to take anothers place, so yes thats how you would take the place of one of the divines. I just don't think talk of Auriels ascension is referring to him mantling anyone else
he very much takes the place of the Time god, so that seems incredibly odd to me, but shrug i don't really know where to move on with that particular route
First Akatosh has been the common term for the time god within the community for pretty much forever.
we aren't talking about the community, we're talking about an in-universe author; what terms the community uses aren't important here
The second is that the author of Shezarr... is aware that his audience are human citizens of the empire and so he uses the Cyrodil name.
i counter this with the following passage at the beginning of Shezarr...
The position Shezarr enjoys in Cyrodilic worship if [sic] often misconstrued. He, and a thousand other deities, have sizeable cults in the Imperial City. Shezarr is especially venerated in the Colovian West, though he is called Shor there, as the West Kings are resolutely, and religiously, Nordic.

  • Shezarr and the Divines
    when another cultural name was important to point out in the same source, it was used; i expect the same would be done with Auriel

And I guess there is a third which is that 99.99% of Tamriel doesn't really know that Akatosh, Auriel, and Alduin are the same.
there are multiple in-universe sources on the topic, which i imagine this scholar would be aware of considering the information they're presenting. furthermore, he expresses that Shor == Shezarr, which makes it very odd for him not to clarify that he means that Akatosh originated with Auriel; again, it's out of place for this to be a general term instead of a specific one
So yes the one who would be called Akatosh could be "originally" an elven spirit since Alessia was trying to placate her subjects and the gods they co-opted from their elven masters
the source is clearly meant to be one about education, not placation, as evidenced by the negative outlook on Shezarr. furthermore, it very much talks about the influences to the elven pantheon, and yet - as i mentioned earlier - failed to mention Auriel. even further, the author is described as such:
Subcurator of Ancient Theology and Paleonumerology
this author doesn't seem to be from Alessia's time (with his focus being old stuff), making it unlikely for it to be an attempt at placation from Alessia, especially considering how much focus the source puts on Shezarr's/Shor's bloodlust in the days of old

gaunt bear
#

@golden sierra so it can basically be summed up as: a great big giant mess.

golden sierra
#

welcome to Metaphysics

#

everything is just layers and patterns and split personalities and metaphors. it's so frustrating, but so fun

brave kernel
#

he very much takes the place of the Time god, so that seems incredibly odd to me, but shrug i don't really know where to move on with that particular route

Fair enough.

we aren't talking about the community, we're talking about an in-universe author; what terms the community uses aren't important here

Right but it felt worth it to point out.

i counter this with the following passage at the beginning of Shezarr...

The position Shezarr enjoys in Cyrodilic worship if [sic] often misconstrued. He, and a thousand other deities, have sizeable cults in the Imperial City. Shezarr is especially venerated in the Colovian West, though he is called Shor there, as the West Kings are resolutely, and religiously, Nordic.

  • Shezarr and the Divines
    when another cultural name was important to point out in the same source, it was used; i expect the same would be done with Auriel

Yes but its another human cultures name for Lorkhan. There is an anti-elven bias to the text

there are multiple in-universe sources on the topic, which i imagine this scholar would be aware of considering the information they're presenting. furthermore, he expresses that Shor == Shezarr, which makes it very odd for him not to clarify that he means that Akatosh originated with Auriel; again, it's out of place for this to be a general term instead of a specific one

Not general, just using the name his audience knows.

#

the source is clearly meant to be one about education, not placation, as evidenced by the negative outlook on Shezarr. furthermore, it very much talks about the influences to the elven pantheon, and yet - as i mentioned earlier - failed to mention Auriel. even further, the author is described as such

Subcurator of Ancient Theology and Paleonumerology

this author doesn't seem to be from Alessia's time (with his focus being old stuff), making it unlikely for it to be an attempt at placation from Alessia, especially considering how much focus the source puts on Shezarr's/Shor's bloodlust in the days of old

Right he isn't. Its Alessia who was placating not the author of the text. She had human slaves that worshiped Auriel that she needed to keep under control. She also had Nord allies who hated Auriel that she wanted to stay allies with. She she combined Auriel and Alduin into Akatosh. That doesn't mean she was really creating a new God. But to the 99% she was.

golden sierra
# brave kernel he very much takes the place of the Time god, so that seems incredibly odd to me...

Yes but its another human cultures name for Lorkhan. There is an anti-elven bias to the text
there's not really anything to counter prior to this, so i won't. anyways, how is this anti-elven? foxhuh i'm struggling to find even a hint of anti-elven rhetoric besides the lack of Auriel being mentioned, which - clearly - i chalk up to Auriel not even being the god he's talking about
Not general, just using the name his audience knows.
by "general term" i mean a term which refers to an overarching concept instead of a specific entity. here's an example from Ted Peterson which illustrates what i mean:
Ted Peterson:
Ah, the world of semantics. Short answer: Daedra is plural, Daedroth is singular. Long answer: Almost no one uses these terms correctly in Tamriel. Why? Because, just like in our own world, words change meanings out of popular usage. There is a creature simply called a Daedroth, after all: those big, bipedal, reptilian beasts that are the terror of the four corners of Tamriel. Somehow, in ages past, they were given this confusing name, probably by someone who, when asked what that creature was, gave a generic answer which was taken to be a specific one.
what you're essentially arguing here is that "Akatosh" is used as a general term to mean "Time God" instead of a specific term to mean "the Imperial Time God," or (as i'm arguing), "the Aldmeri Time God (before Auriel)". this is similar to how the community often uses the term "Lorkhan" to generally refer to the Space god, despite the fact the term is more specifically used for the elven Space god
Right he isn't. Its Alessia who was placating not the author of the text. She had human slaves that worshiped Auriel that she needed to keep under control. She also had Nord allies who hated Auriel that she wanted to stay allies with. She she combined Auriel and Alduin into Akatosh. That doesn't mean she was really creating a new God. But to the 99% she was.
i don't know how to respond to this in large part because i think you missed my point...? my point was that Alessia's placation attempts aren't a factor here, really, at least not in the way you're talking about. the source repeatedly indicates that it's even going directly against attempts from Alessia to placate her subjects and going into the historical context behind those placations; Auriel, if Akatosh (in the specific term, not the general term) was not an originally Aldmeri god, would be absolutely integral to the discussion

turbid dew
golden sierra
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(i am happy to agree to disagree at any point in time, by the way, but seeing as you're willing to continue, Nazz, i am, as well. i find the topic interesting, and hearing other's opinions on it - even if i disagree - is nice)