elder-scrolls-lore

[flint basin]

Idk if this is the right channel to ask but does anyone know if using the archmages robes and morokei together will stack both of their magika regen abilities together or does it cap out at 100%?

[obtuse summit]

it's not right channel, you should go to #skyrim-chat but morokei mask and archmanges robe cannot be worn together AFAIK.

[flint basin]

Ok thank you for the info and sorry about that

[quartz shuttle]

No worries

[split pond]

How likely is it that we can convince Alduin to target the Thalmor first? You know, since the Thalmor are doing the exact same thing he's trying to do.

[robust lintel]

Gol-Hah-Dov

[pastel sorrel]

He has no reason to worry about them, nor any reason to be convinced of anything by us. He's the World-Eater. If we fail to stop him, all are doomed, and he'll eat the Thalmor just the same as everything else.

[long burrow]

still want to see him terrorize the Thalmor domain

[brisk perch]

I'm thinking Alduin targeted Skyrim first because of historical precedent, and who would actually be a threat to his purpose

[split pond]

Also because it's conveniently the place where he emerged from the past.

[dusky scaffold]

He currently doesn't seem interested in eating, instead he seems to prefer domination

[gaunt bear]

He’ll eat what he can’t dominate.

[dusky scaffold]

Will he?

[gaunt bear]

He’s deep in the arrogance of power. What do you think?

[split pond]

We can lie and say the Thalmor are trying to destroy the world or bring back Numidium. That might get his donkey moving.

[gusty hare]

Don't think he really cares, mortals are mortal

[timber bough]

Doesn't he just pop back into time at the exact spot the 3 flash forwarded him at, on the top of the Throat of the World?

[gusty hare]

Yea, which is why Parthunaxx made his home there, so he could watch for his return

[timber bough]

yea

[gusty hare]

I got a feeling alduin may have gotten into a fight with partysnaxs when he returned

[timber bough]

It doesnt really make sense for him to head off to somewhere beyond Skyrim either, most important dragon-related sites are there

[gusty hare]

its kinda the only reason why alduin flew down the mountain and attacked helegan

[timber bough]

Maybe, but I have a feeling they either didn't come to full blows or Alduin decided to not kill Paarthysnax for some reason. It seems like he headed straight down the mountain and Helgen had the misfortune of being in his path

[gusty hare]

Oh absolutly, he must have thought "ooh village im going to burn it down"

[timber bough]

He probably had some frustration to let out lmao

[gusty hare]

I wonder if alduin experence waiting while traveling to the future or if e just zipped right to it immediatly

[timber bough]

It's probably impossible to describe how being outside of time feels

It's probably even worse to experience for a being that is, more or less, time personified

[quartz shuttle]

When dealing with Alduin, it's also important to think about what his Arrogance of Power means

Did he decide he would rule this world? Or did he decide his job was more important than Akatosh's will?

[split pond]

Have the Altmer and the Dwemer fought before?

[uncut hatch]

If you count chimer as a type of altmer then yes

[plain ibex]

I have a question about the Empire's laws, specifically about the period up to the start of the 4th era. Is there lore on more than the 3 options you usually get, those being "pay fine" "go to jail" and "resist arrest" or even mention of more options on the guards part than just "then pay with your blood" for resisting arrest? Asking since I'm making a unique playable version of the palace guard set and I want to help fit the equipment and its enchantments to this high ranking guard's duties (i.e. shield enchanted with light for patrolling at night, paralysis mace for stopping wrongdoers from fleeing/resisting arrest etc.)

[quartz shuttle]

As far as we know, no. That's a gameplay mechanic and not something supported by lore. Prison time seems to be relatively normal as punishment, though given the status of the setting, most petty crime probably results in capital punishment or is never solved

[uncut hatch]

Hey, anyone willing to help me with a nerdy question?

[gusty hare]

What is it?

[uncut hatch]

I'm creating a weapon made of dragon bone of legendary quality- I was thinking of naming it in the draconic language- I was thinking TUZ LAAT BO, "Blade Final Flight", signifying the end of a dovah's flight in the fourth era by my blade.

Dovah have no concept of mortality, so short of the Dragonrend shout causing them to experience it, I thought the name would be fitting in a kinda boastful way. What do you think, @gusty hare ?

[gusty hare]

I think it fits pretty well with the idea, Tuzlaatbo

Although it does sound a bit like a Bow name

but its not really a big deal

[uncut hatch]

Do Nords name their weapons often?

[gusty hare]

Yea

All cultures name their weapons

[uncut hatch]

We see a Redguard name his family blade in Whiterun ans Mjol has Grimsever

[soft zenith]

To be fair people still do that.

Hell not even weapons, people even name their cars.

[obtuse summit]

well its better feeling killed a dragon with weapon named dragonbane rather than ratpicker 😄

[pseudo sundial]

Of Course we do, I name all my weapons and doing it long before Skyrim was ever released.

[uncut hatch]

I know they revere the Three Good Daedra heavily

[inner dock]

In Skyrim, sure. But before that they revered the Tribunal mainly with some ancestral worship of the 13 Daedra.

The 13 including: Azura, Boethia, Mephala, Peryite, Mehrunes Dagon, Sheogorath, Molag Bal, and Meridia. I can't remember the last 5.

[uncut hatch]

Hermamora, Malacath,

[uncut hatch]

Jyggalag (Gray Prince), Malacath, Clavicus Vile (Nycot)

[gaunt bear]

I’m guessing that the other Daedric Princes, not too happy to see Jyggalag again, are treating him like the “new kid”.

[uncut hatch]

You can also check here just look for the Dunmer entry https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gods

[dense rain]

Someone was asking about the Azura curse on the Chimer, I found this on Skyrim wiki: "Indoril Nerevar was the Chimer general responsible for the attack and ultimate defeat of the Dwemer at Red Mountain around the year 1E 700. When the battle had concluded Nerevar ordered Dagoth Ur to remain behind and guard the Heart, as he and the Tribunal (then mortal Chimer) found a plan on what to do with the artifact. When they returned they found that Dagoth had become insane from tapping into the Heart's power. A battle broke out between Nerevar and the Tribunal against Dagoth Ur. Dagoth eventually lost the duel which ended with Nerevar being mortally wounded. This is where reports differ. One legend states that after finding the Tribunal and making them swear not to use the tools of Kagrenac on the Heart, the Tribunal murdered Nerevar. Another report simply says that Nerevar died after making them swear to Azura, after which they used the tools, against their oath, and became the living gods of Morrowind (the act that caused Azura to turn the Chimer race into the Dunmer)."

[obtuse summit]

o yeah red mountain moment, that count as dragon break so all things are truth.

[quartz shuttle]

Maybe. It's believed by the lore community to be a Dragon Break, but unlike the Middle Dawn, it's not something that's confirmed

I myself support the argument, but there are different interpretations which state the different accounts are simply a combination of mythic construction and propaganda

[obtuse summit]

both dagoth ur and vivec not denied or confirm any of it tho.

[quartz shuttle]

Neither of which are the most reliable of sources. One is insane, the other a known liar.

[obtuse summit]

how about divath fyr?

wulfhart? oh right he become part of talos.

[quartz shuttle]

Fyr doesn't comment on it at all that we are aware of

[brave shoal]

i guess it simply one of these important event in history that get told and retold and twisted to fit whatever party's agenda and with time the actual truth is lost

[finite kettle]

hi

[split pond]

Are there any Khajiit martial arts or groups that use heavy armor and two-handed weapons? Somehow my character ended up being a Daedric armor battleaxe wielding Khajiit and I'm trying to find a lore-reason why. As far as I know, Khajiit emphasize quick strikes utilizing a Khajiit's natural claws rather than donning heavy armor and tanking hits.

[ocean brook]

there are Khaijiit breeds which are built for power over speed - I imagine they would find utility in heavy armor and two handed weapons, usiong their claws as backup weapons akin to daggers

[split pond]

I did set my character's scale to 1.2, so he towers over pretty much everyone.
He also still ended up being a stealth archer, only with rifle mods and while wearing Daedric.

[dusky scaffold]

Well, the Desert Rain emote in ESO uses a sword

[quartz shuttle]

Most combat-oriented martial arts are going to be perfectly serviceable in Heavy Armour. Since most warriors would be wearing the heaviest armour they could afford, so the fighting styles would require flexability for the sake of use.

Modern meditative or dancing martial arts, are an entirely different circumstance. But if you're using Kung Fu in a life or death fight, you're already dead

[outer sorrel]

Basically every time the Numidium activates there's a Dragon Break. Red Mountain having hundreds of conflicting reports, Tiber Septim sacking SVMVRSET also changed Cyrodiil from jungle to shire in the past present and future, the Agent causes the Warp in the West which completely rewrote the political landscape of Highrock and of Orcish history

Heck the Warp in the West wasn't even all that long before TES4, Uriel VII was Emperor in Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion

[outer sorrel]

Wulfarth is possibly a title for one, he also might be two people, or two people who became one within the Mantella. Those two being Ysmir Wulfarth and Zurin Arctus, who are also both the underking

[proud zodiac]

Man.... everyone forgets that one time the cleaner accidentally hit the button to turn on Numidium and accidentally caused a dragon break....

[quartz shuttle]

Ysmir is probably the title, Wulfharth the name

[uncut hatch]

Ysmir is the title https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ysmir

[obtuse summit]

aaand no one call you that in game.

[inner dock]

Evgir Unslaad. War Never Changes. Both iconic lines.

Every draugr seems to be obsessed with "Unslaad Krosis", as they say that to all my characters in Skyrim. I forgot what the translation of each was.

[quartz shuttle]

Oh man, 'War Never Changes' ruffiles my jimmies

Unslaad Krosis is Eternal Sorrow

[inner dock]

I might have misspelled the first one.

It's something heard from citizens of major cities.

[inner dock]

Are the Draugr apologising to my characters?

[quartz shuttle]

More liklely condemning you

[inner dock]

I think the characters say that the first Dovahzuul quote is "Season Unending" or something.

[quartz shuttle]

Not entirely sure, it's been awhile for me

[inner dock]

I'd love to have enough knowledge of the Falmer, Dwemer, and Chimer languages to engage in a conversation using it.

[inner dock]

Paaz.

[outer sorrel]

eh i was close enough

[split pond]

If Kematu's statement at the end of In My Time Of Need is correct, it looks like Hammerfell's resistance against the Dominion is currently going strong (or in his words, alive and well)

[obtuse summit]

that's intrigued me why they insist to take on hammerfell. are they looking for something? like legacy of rourken clan?

[split pond]

The Thalmor?

[obtuse summit]

yes

[split pond]

If I recall, they really, really want the entirety of Tamriel back under the Elves. No exceptions.

[brisk perch]

Staging point for reaching Isle of Balfiera

Also, hunting down those that fled the Third Aldmeri Dominion, since they are a threat to their power

[obtuse summit]

Ah yes, the dissidents.

anyway, i doubt thalmor will succeed unless they have some giant robot that can erase reality lol

[brisk perch]

You only need access to one of the active towers to have a significant impact on the world, or even one of their stones like the Amulet of Kings or the Heart of Lorkhan

I'd be surprised that they did not go for Crystal-Like-Law, but I think that one was knocked down on Tamriel in the Oblivion Crisis, so they'd have to access another plane's version

[obtuse summit]

yea, but i doubt psijic order will go silent if thalmor going too far.

i mean psijic will ignore their political movement and their machination.

but mess with tower kinda have bigger consequences.

[ocean brook]

weirdly enough, I'm predicting that the Thalmor are going to kick the Psjjc's tails in the next game or two

[obtuse summit]

then everything over, no more elder scrolls series.

I mean if thalmor that strong, they can defeat empire easily.

[gusty hare]

Nah I don't think the Thalmor have even found a way to travel to artaum

[ocean brook]

they were defeating the Empire; Titus only managed to pull off a late game turnaround, not a deal clincher

and as for finding Artaum, that's why I said "in the next game or two". the college of winterhold quest neatly established the Psjjcs as our Obi Wan figures against the Thalmor, so I'm expecting the Thalmor to tun all Vader eventually 🙂

[obtuse summit]

it's stalemate, they succeed take over the imperial city at first but defeated later.

sure they later got what they want tho.

I think you overestimate how capable thalmor are. they're still mortal force not even demigods.

[gusty hare]

They have really powerful mages though

[obtuse summit]

so was psijic order

[wet forge]

I've never really delved into the lore, but what I never understood was why the empire even tolerated the Thalmor. Lack of military might?

[obtuse summit]

and any other mages guilds, covenants, colleges.

busy

[gusty hare]

Pretty much

[obtuse summit]

i mean empire still recover from oblivion crisis

with new dynasty ruler.

[wet forge]

That was 200 years prior

[obtuse summit]

150 year from the great war.

[gusty hare]

The Empire had a chance to win the war after they retook the Imperial city, but they decided to not risk getting anailated and signed a Treaty with the dominion

[obtuse summit]

but yea, thalmor move like shadow. they used spies and subversion.

[gusty hare]

I dont think the treaty won't hold forever, but it will give the empire time to rebuild it's army

[obtuse summit]

I mean that's their most powerful strength. kinda fit with high elf as they have strong illusion magic talent.

we never know how strong thalmor opposition in alinor itself or other dominion area.

[wet forge]

Indirectly seizing the empire by the balls during a moment of weakness. Sounds like something a pretentious group of zealots would do. So essentially the cival war boils to a group of racist extremists vs another group of racist extremists. The empire in Skyrim are basically just a puppet for them

[gusty hare]

I am curious how the political climate of TES 6 is, maybe it takes place during the 2nd great war and the empire firmly gets anilated and the Thalmor is slowly taking each provence.

[gusty hare]

Theres a Dossier about Ulfric that suggest the civil war is Actaully helping the thalmor by weakening the empire

[obtuse summit]

but losing both empire and blades, its feel like no longer elder scrolls.

[ocean brook]

the point is, the Thalmor have been positioned as the recurring antagonists going forward, and the Psjjcs as a group that will help the PC oppose the Thalmor - in certain circumstances.

so it only makes sense that, at some point in the future, the Thalmor are going to threaten the Psjjcs

[gusty hare]

I mean some people would argue that the empire is due for a collapse

[obtuse summit]

well i always see thalmor as something like team rocket in Pokemon, they're like annoying side enemies in game but never main one.

[ocean brook]

they've literally been in just one rpg so far, not counting ESO, and they were posited as an existential threat to the Empire

[wet forge]

In a way I picture this as Star Wars. So far its been the prequel era, now original era is dawning. Its the same franchise but the plot is thickening

[gusty hare]

What if in tes6 the thalmor Erases nirn, but the Player character gets sent backwards in time to undo everything

[ocean brook]

that would be rather weird

[wet forge]

What would be the point?

[gusty hare]

idk to fix the universe

[obtuse summit]

that's something like major retcon lol.

[gusty hare]

Not really

[wet forge]

I suppose a better question would be, how? So far, nothing has come close to actually destroying the world. Even Skyrim didn’t take things THAT far

[ocean brook]

well, there was the Eye of Magnus

plus, Alduin was the World Eater

[inner dock]

I'd like to play an Elder Scrolls game that's similar to the era from GoT marked as being after the Long Night or Aegon's Conquest type situations.

[gusty hare]

the Direnni tower also comes to mind, I mean the Aedra created it so

[obtuse summit]

I wish there's three way battle again in TES6 lol

empire, dominion and independence states

hammerfell, black marsh and morrowind/skyrim

[wet forge]

Only if it actually amounted to something

[gusty hare]

Sounds like eso again

[obtuse summit]

as very unlikely that morrowind will allied with black marsh lol

[obtuse summit]

well i want three banner war in single player game lol

[gusty hare]

The hatred between the former pact nations has grown too much

[obtuse summit]

that's why maybe cryodil, high rock and morrowind could become allied.

[gusty hare]

Idk thats a bit too widespead

[wet forge]

What I'd be interested in is more non-Tamriel involvement. There is another continent after-all. Why not use it?

[obtuse summit]

yokudan?

[gusty hare]

like it would take a year to go from Daggerfall to Mornhold

[gusty hare]

||Please don't say akavir||

[obtuse summit]

well if hammerfell is really for TESVI maybe 👀

[wet forge]

Whatever its called. I'm not super knowledgeable

[gusty hare]

Again please dont say akavir

[wet forge]

The one with the snake people

[obtuse summit]

I also want akavir keep mysterious lol

[gusty hare]

https://tenor.com/view/facepalm-picard-star-trek-the-next-generation-disappointed-gif-23456183

Akavir Needs to be a mystery

[wet forge]

Looked it up, and yes... Akavir

[obtuse summit]

I guess that's charm of TES. in the lore, other region seems so weird but turns out its just mundane.

[gusty hare]

I don't want Akavir to be revealed, like ever

[obtuse summit]

like dwemer?

[gusty hare]

Eh Dwemer is a bit of a different story, since we are constantly getting new developments about the in lore

[wet forge]

Look, I get where you’re coming from, but a mystery can only go unanswered for so long before people just stop caring

[inner dock]

The original homeland of the Nords (Atmora) might be fun to explore. Maybe as part of an imperial expeditionary force?

[wet forge]

SOME answers may be necessary before long

[obtuse summit]

why bother there? atmora is cold and have no settlement probably.

no benefit for trading or open new expedition area.

[gusty hare]

I would like to see more Sload/Pyndonian places

[wet forge]

So basically you’re all for foreign lands being given answers, but Akavir in particular is off limits? Got it lol

[gusty hare]

Akavir is different

We have no mention of Akavir culture/ race descriptions outside a few sources

[wet forge]

Many dungeons in Oblivion were of Akavir make

[gusty hare]

The Sloads and Maomer, however we know who they are, what their buildings look like ect.

[wet forge]

Hell, wasn’t Cyrodill originally occupied by them?

[gusty hare]

Yea but thats different

[obtuse summit]

there's akaviri human and there's tsaecci

[gusty hare]

They were imperialized

[wet forge]

And if I remember right, aren’t the Tsaecci a variation of Khajiit?

[gusty hare]

No

[obtuse summit]

snake-person

[gusty hare]

They are not related to the Khajiit at all

[wet forge]

I could have sworn there was mention of another race of cat folk on Akavir

[obtuse summit]

u mean ka po tun?

[wet forge]

Thank you yes

[obtuse summit]

yeah tiger race

[gusty hare]

I mean they could be an cousin to the Khajiit, but I highly doubt they follow the Lunar Lattice

[wet forge]

Either way, it potentially opens doors for new races and cultures, even if they’re not actually playable

[obtuse summit]

but mysterious akavir seems written by people who only heard about akavir but never actually there lol

something like traveler's book IRL describe rhino as unicorn?

[gusty hare]

Again I perfer the Continent Akavir be kept a mystery for now, maybe at most see a little bit more about the races but still keep their culture mostly a mystery

[proud zodiac]

They've expressed interest in doing Pyandonea in ESO. So it's definitely a possibility

[proud zodiac]

I've been told by multiple people that Akavir is fully off limits, overall, along with Dwemer returning

[wet forge]

It just feels like a waste. We know more about the gods themselves than a foreign land

[proud zodiac]

I mean, I think it's the mystery of Akavir that's most appealing to them, in a lore sense

We could see akaviri races (although I would guess not Tsaesci proper in order to keep the "are they just snakes or not" still iffy), but I doubt we'll ever see Akavir proper

If I had to guess, I'd say if we do see an akaviri race in a game, it'll be Kamal

[gusty hare]

Imga Race still needs to be in game first

[proud zodiac]

I feel like the Lilmothiit would be more likely, a sort of Fox counter to Khajiit

[wet forge]

Honestly, it feels like a squandered opportunity they didn’t have the Kamal in Skyrim. That’s where they’d best fit

[gusty hare]

We literally have no infomation on the Lilmothiit or what they look like other than "Humanoid fox" I personally think they were a scrapped idea

Honestly Im disappointed that Murkmire had no infomation relating to them

[proud zodiac]

We have more than that. Equal or maybe a little more info than imga

[wet forge]

My inner weeb wants them to be of a Japanese like culture. The high elves kinda already are

[obtuse summit]

Yokudan / redguard already a japanese like culture.

[wet forge]

Hence the attire, thought they were arabic

[obtuse summit]

but with scimitar not katana lol.

[gusty hare]

No they are more Arabic then Japenese

[obtuse summit]

in their culture, like the way of sword basically what bushido is.

[gusty hare]

I mean the Redguards are a well blended race

[obtuse summit]

okay, rather than japanese, maybe closer to samurai like culture.

kinda mixed both.

[wet forge]

bushido is just a variation of a practice not at all unique to Japan

Hell, many things Japanese were originally Chinese

[obtuse summit]

chinese more generally applied rather on something specific.

in chinese, sword is weapon of gentlemen.

feel like out of topic. but yeah, its difficult to applied IRL culture on TES.

[gusty hare]

Its hard to catgorized each TES race by RL influence, cause many of them are a Mixture of several cultures

Anyways I gtg to bed

[wet forge]

Right. Even Dark Elves have some similarities. Honoring their ancestors is huge, cremation being a factor, you could even argue they’ve their own Mt Fuji

[obtuse summit]

well i guess that's make high rock utterly boring for some people. it's just standard medieval.

[proud zodiac]

Mt Fuji doesn't have an evil demigod living inside it

[proud zodiac]

I believe the term you are looking for is "French"

[obtuse summit]

bretons 👀

[wet forge]

Or does it...

https://tenor.com/view/what-beaver-huh-surprised-gif-7511937

[obtuse summit]

well three kagrenac tools probably also coming from three imperial regalia of japan. 👀

[split pond]

Three is a very common number in mythology in general
Gold, Incense, and Myrrh

[wet forge]

3 and 7 in particular are heavily used

Speaking of mythology, one thing that I have been wondering is why the daedra aren’t a bigger threat. There’s only 8 aedra technically and 17 daedric princes. Even removing the 3 or so that aren’t particularly bad, that’s still 14 demon lords. Are the gods just that powerful, or are each prince so caught up in their agendas for them to even bother cooperating?

[split pond]

The last time the princes cooperated with each other was when they cursed Jyggalag, and that ended up with Sheogorath humiliating the lot of them.

There are also worse things out there that everyone has to worry about, like Sithis, Alduin at the end of each cycle, and possibly Numidium.

[wet forge]

Why worry about Sithis? Its just the representation of death, the eventual fate of all things. Its can’t act of its own accord

[split pond]

Speaking of things that are outside the sphere of the Aedra and Daedra, what do we know about the Magna-ge, other than Magnus?

[wet forge]

Me in particular, jack

Is it my imagination or are Anu and Padomay named after Anakin and Padme...?

Its a huge stretch but you gotta wonder

[uncut hatch]

Sithis is one of the 2 first gods and has tried on more than one occasion to destroy all of creation.

[inner dock]

Don't forget the numeric significance of 3, 7, 9, and 1.

The series that featured that sequence laid the foundation of modern interpretation of pseudo-medieval fantasy.

[wet forge]

Oh yes that does sound familiar. I haven’t watched lore videos in a while, so I forget

[split pond]

Lord of the Rings?

[wet forge]

Speaking of, I heard there’s going to be a series set before the hobbit

[inner dock]

Yep. Even Skyrim has a ton of references to it. Down to even the design of the houses in Whiterun.

[inner dock]

Yeah. It's called Rings of Power.

I suspect the setting might be on Nùmenor.

[wet forge]

Presumably telling the story of how things went wrong

[inner dock]

The story in The Silmarillion contains that story. Sauron in disguise taught ringcraft to the elves of old.

Having a reference to the One Ring in a future game as an item would be fun IMO.

[dusky scaffold]

We've already had a reference to it in Oblivion

[pastel sorrel]

There's more than 8 aedra, there's just 8 main ones in orbit around Nirn. Among them includes big daddy Akatosh himself, and his brother Lorkhan isn't exactly out of the fight entirely even though he's dead and reformed as Talos but that's another matter.

In addition, the Mundus is home turf for them. It's their collective plane they've been formed into in some cases and given a measure of their power to in others, and it has multiple layers of protection even before Akatosh and whatnot step in from time to time.

The daedra have certainly made some damn good attempts, but nobody's succeeded so far, and they don't cooperate nearly enough to overwhelm the Mundus; even if they did, they would soon enough squabble just as they do now, and nothing would be accomplished, which they're probably perfectly aware of.

[inner dock]

Only mentioned in a book, though. I'm talking about something like a functional ring of power, which binds until it reaches a certain point in the world, or something as a side quest, etc.

[gusty hare]

Molag Bal was pretty close to absorbing nirn, but then the Vestiage stepped in and said hello

[pastel sorrel]

An avatar of Akatosh was still enough to bodyslam Dagon into being aliven't, and his power channeled through the Vestige was enough for Bal much the same.

Imagine if Akatosh's full self, or even the AKHAT oversoul, were to step in.

[gusty hare]

The Daedric Traid almost succeded and destroyed nirn, but then Nocturnal was like nope

[pastel sorrel]

Ironically if she hadn'tve screwed Mephala and Vile over, she possibly would've suceeded

[split pond]

What is Jyggalag doing right now? What are the chances he'll be featured as a major character in The Elder Scrolls 6? Either in the main story or as DLC.

[pastel sorrel]

The Prince associated with luck went and burnt her own luck by jumping the gun early

[pastel sorrel]

Jyggalag is out being Jyggalag. That's all the information that's available.

[split pond]

He's supposed to be the most powerful Daedric Prince isn't he? At least before he got cursed.

[pastel sorrel]

So they say, at least at the time of his cursing.

The others might've stepped up since.

[split pond]

And none of the Princes want him back at full power. We'll probably see a quest in TES 6 where one of the Princes try to stop Jyggalag from regaining strength, or a quest where Jyggalag asks us for help in restoring his power.

[wet forge]

Oooooh... The games leave out so much information

Gotta say its nice learning about lore without being insulted. Its why I left Reddit

[pastel sorrel]

Not so much leaving out information, it's just not immediately presented to you.

[gusty hare]

Also Mannimarco has his own moon for the Sole purpose of annoying the Hell out of Arkay

[pastel sorrel]

The vast majority of the lore takes actual research, reading the various lorebooks and paying attention to the environment and dialogue, and no small measure of extrapolation and debate.

Especially since it operates on "all the lore is people's subjective in-universe beliefs and claims with no way to objectively verify most of it", taking cues from real life.

At best you have things like the Monomyth, which is just the basic narrative structure most cultures seem to agree upon to some extent or another.

[wet forge]

I know that there's many in game books on the subjects but most aren’t well written and very short. I'd love if the company arranged to have fans update and add new books explaining lore if they lack the time. It could come down to the characters simply not knowing enough to provide adequate information, but STILL. One thing I do in every game is collect the books. They might as well make them worth reading, right?

[pastel sorrel]

I mean, there is the CC, though it's not meant to have wide-reaching ramifications per se. Though that could possibly be negotiable.

[wet forge]

Heck, there could even be multiple with conflicting information to show different opinions and perspectives

[pastel sorrel]

That's SOP for TES lore to begin with

[wet forge]

I mostly just want this to exist for in game substance

[topaz dome]

I would prefer fans didn't update and add new books. Bethesda's writing may not always be the best but if the fan fiction I have read is any indication, I am not eager for fans to have a hand in writing or curating Elder Scrolls lore.

[wet forge]

@topaz dome I'm talking about the in game books

Why stop at the lusty argonian? The internet needs more meme worthy stories

[topaz dome]

Yes, that's what I assumed you were talking about. Actually, now that I think of it, there was one fan-tweaked in-game book I liked. A modder named AlienSlof added pictures to Boethiah's Pillow Book in Morrowind many years ago. I thought that was amusing. 😉

[gusty hare]

Boethiah's......Pillow Book?

[uncut hatch]

You steal it during the Naughty Gandosa quest.

[topaz dome]

It was an in-game book in Morrowind: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Naughty_Gandosa

[wet forge]

Ooooooo naughty book

[gusty hare]

Theres nothing in the book...

[dusky scaffold]

There is, you just can't fathom it

[gusty hare]

So the Nervarine is too stupid to understand 😆

[dusky scaffold]

just too inocent

[inner dock]

Maybe they need to hang around Crassius Curio (Author for the in-universe book "The Lusty Argonian Maid") a lot more before they understand the book.

[quartz shuttle]

Jyggalag is unlikely to ever become the same sort of cosmic threat again. His power grew uncontrolled because he had no opposite. Sheogorath was simply a 'hole'. Now that Madness is an agency of it's own, Jyggalag has a cosmic foil to balance him out.

[gusty hare]

But Will jyggalag ever rise again as a Prince though

[quartz shuttle]

He already is. You don't just stop being a Prince. He just isn't interested in Mundus right now

And why would he be? As far as his records suggest, everything there is predictable. It's only when things get removed from Mundus that they become unpredictable,and thus a concern.

[gaunt bear]

I like to pretend that he and the New Sheogorath are twin brothers who are exact opposites from each other.

[uncut hatch]

I think in Oblivion they were actually the same person??

[gaunt bear]

@uncut hatch Metaphor.

[uncut hatch]

Ah ok

[pastel sorrel]

They were basically the same person with different personas, they were split into two at the end.

hence "new" Sheogorath

[uncut hatch]

Ok, that's kinda how I interpreted it

[pastel sorrel]

Though "new" is a bit redundant since it's not the first time Sheogorath's been re-mantled.

[uncut hatch]

I seem to recall this was done to spite Jyggalag (as he was the prince of order, so what better to spite him then insanity)

[pastel sorrel]

According to one narrative he was cursed by the other Princes to be his polar opposite, further teasing him by allowing him the Sisyphean opportunity of the Greymarch

Just this time in TES4 we help break it finally.

[split pond]

He seems like he'll have a fun time with Numidium.

[gaunt bear]

Wonder how the other Daedric Princes are handling it.

[obtuse summit]

oblivion realm chaotic as always so nothing changed lol wait.. isn't that quite paradox 🤔

[quartz shuttle]

Seems to be the first time he was successfully Mantled during a Greymarch though

[pastel sorrel]

It's the first time he managed to split Jyggalag off, yes.

Possibly last time he re-mantled, the new mantler failed to defeat Jyggalag

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah

[pastel sorrel]

so nothing really changed in the end

[quartz shuttle]

Dius basically confirms that other have tried to do this in the past, but failed. Presumably they couldn't shed their own identity in the end

The running lore-hypothesis is that thsoe failed Mantles became Haskill

[pastel sorrel]

I mean that's not even a hypothesis, Haskill outright says he's a vestige of a previous mantling attempt

[quartz shuttle]

Yes, but the hypothesis is that he's a combination of failed Mantles, rather than one in particular

To explain Dius' statements that many have tried before

[split pond]

You know who are the true rulers of Tamriel?
It's not the Empire or the Dominion, it's bandits.

[obtuse summit]

it's mudcrab

they have emperor crab

all books are lies, tamriel actually sit upon a colossal mudcrab.

[gusty hare]

I would be down to see a bandit kingdom

[obtuse summit]

in high rock, a bandit probably could build a kingdom.

[gusty hare]

I can see bandit kingdom being a hammerfall city

[obtuse summit]

but bandits are unruly folks, how can you rule people that despise law lol

they can backstab their leader anytime.

[brisk perch]

The true ruler of the Aurbis is the Godhead, but trying to understand that often leads to zero-sum.

[split pond]

I bet the Godhead is a bandit.

[brisk perch]

The Godhead is everyone and everything as far as I can tell in the Aurbis, if not even more than that. The entirety of everything in there is the Godhead's imagination.

Who or what the Prisoner, AKA The Player, is in-universe/out of universe is another area entirety.

[split pond]

The Prisoner is a bandit

[brisk perch]

Maybe

[quartz shuttle]

Undercurrents of conceptual memes permeating the subconsciousness of reality.

[plain ibex]

Who exactly wears the imperial watch variant of the palace guard armour in oblivion? High ranking palace guards or just regular guard captains?

[topaz dome]

According to the Construction Set the Imperial Watch Armor is worn by Adamus Phillida, Hieronymus Lex, Itius Hayn, Servatius Quintilius, Audens Avidius, Carmalo Truiand, Giovanni Civello and several unnamed Palace Guards.

[plain ibex]

So it fits with my mentioned only palace guard captain who you'll be able to find the armour of in a mod I'm working on. Nice.

[plain ibex]

One last issue, I want a place where I can start the scavenger hunt organically. Is there anywhere I can put the first note/checklist in the Imperial City where it'd be likely to be found (by NPCs but also the player)?

[finite kettle]

hi

[quartz shuttle]

Hola

[wet forge]

Akin to templars in Dragon Age, were there ever guard or soldier units to keep magic users in check?

[obtuse summit]

i read somewhere there was some magical handcuff or something.

or just use damage magicka poison lol

[quartz shuttle]

It's never been specifically detailed, but apprehending magic users typically seems to require magic users

[obtuse summit]

magic seems kinda easy to disable in TES universe.

I always thought all archetype seems balanced like rogue weak against warrior, warrior weak against mage, mage weak against rogue.

[wet forge]

@obtuse summit Rogues are only good if unseen. Realistically, it's kinda hard to brush off an explosive force to the face

[obtuse summit]

then such bad rogue if they let themself be seen lol

[split pond]

And that's how the ancient warrior class known as the stealth archers were born.

[split pond]

Compared to say, your average Breton or Altmer mage, how magically strong is an Alfiq?

[brave shoal]

if cuteness is a school of magic, nobody can beat them

[obtuse summit]

much same probably, how to calculate magicka actually?

[wet forge]

Well if any particular race qualifies for an anti mage class, it would be a breton

[dusky scaffold]

... who are also the second most mage race

[wet forge]

For no other reason than magical damage tops off their MP. Beside, nothing else particularly gives them a magical edge. Hell, skill bonuses scarcely matter when literally every race has the same aptitude apparently, which honestly shouldn't be a thing. An orc shouldn't have the same magical potential as a high elf

[gaunt bear]

Something I thought of for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction made me really wonder about something.

The book The Dreamstride only contains notes on the Torpor, but it’s described as a book of alchemical recipes. Maybe they’ll only be revealed to one who proves themselves to Vaermina, but also, what other recipes could be in the book?

What I have planned is that one mage in the Inquisition discovers a recipe for a ||dream orgy|| and is later found sleeping off the after effects/hangover (a maybe, still indecisive), and an Orlesian noble that uses another potion to, accidentally, turn herself (himself?) into a female version of Inigo (Chamber of Secrets reference), much to Sera’s amusement and Inigo’s interest.

[ocean brook]

bear in mind, few people in the TES universe actually reach the full potential that we, as players, take for granted. racial bonuses still matter for most people, simply because most people are not the Tamrielic analogue to Captain America 🙂

also, cuffs made with Drain Magicka enchantments are useful for rendering mages incapable of casting; these were featured in Morrowind, but never showed up in the later games, for some odd reason

[quartz shuttle]

It absolutely SHOULD be a thing. Racial aptitudes are one of the worst Fantasy Tropes out there, and sorely diminish the range of individual character expressions by shoehorning entire species into niches

Vague physical differences are one thing, but actual academic and intellectual aptitudes are entirely different.

The proclivities of populations in Tamriel are entirely cultural, not biological. Bretons exhibit a higher tendency towards magic not because of their blood, but because prolonged interaction with Altmeri societies has cultivated a social structure which greatly favours magical scholarship.

[wet forge]

@quartz shuttle But if any player race can become whatever, what incentive is there to choose any particular race? I can't be alone when I almost never use argonians. The only time I did in Skyrim was to roleplay a "D&D" dragonborn. They've nothing going for them you can't make up for in other ways

[quartz shuttle]

What culture do you like? What aesthetic do you like? Who do you want to be?

Racial Abilities only encourages tropes and meta gaming, it doesn't encourage creating actual characters

Giving mechanical benefits to particular races pigeonholes their identities. Sure, it means you can encourage playing them by making them optimized bonuses for particular builds, meaning of you want to play that build they are you best choice.. But that is the crudest, laziest way to design characters

I don't play Bretons, Imperials, Nords, Altmer or Khajiit very often. Not because they don't offer bonuses i like, but because they don't offer RP identities i'm particularly keen on. They don't have intriguing cultures, evocative visual styles, or engaging histories that speak to me in character design.

Stats are mostly irrelevant in open ended games anyway. And Racials are even worse in games where they offer permanent and insurmountable advantages. Why would any Altmer ever try to become the worlds greatest swordsman when Redguard are just inherently better than them?

If you had that sort of dynamic, then you'd see cultures over-compensate by doubling down on their innate abilities, creating homogeneous identities heavily divided around explicit racial lines. Which gets you into some of the dumbest Sci-Fi tropes

Ultimately, Racials Aptitudes just serve no function.

They diminish cultural development by railroading ethnic identities.

They diminish gameplay options by pigeonholing particular builds to particular races and actively impairing character diversity.

And they diminish individual diversity and perpetuate racial stereotyping.

Their limiting world building, impairing game-play options, and actively racist in their very core concept. The only reason it perpetuates in gaming is because it's the way things have always been done, no matter how stupid that way actually is.

[wet forge]

@quartz shuttle Not sure why you're getting political about this but it is a game, and should therefore function as one. You ever heard the saying when everyone is special, then no one is? The same concept applies here. If every race is essentially the same save for a few negligible differences, then all the choices have far less impact, like everything we do is simply a whim and not a hard choice. In which case, what purpose does roleplay even serve?

[brisk perch]

To my knowledge, the only race within The Elder Scrolls that is playable that is unrelated biologically to others are the Sakhleel, and even then there's magic and myth is reality, so it really shouldn't matter.

[quartz shuttle]

Ok, first off, lets be clear about something. EVERYTHING is political. Every action, every value, every idea, is inherently political. Politics is at the very core of human interaction, and it is fundamentally impossible to separate anything Human, from Politics. The spread of Doric architecture through the eastern Mediterranean? Political. The advent of writing? Political. The birth of Cosmic Horror? Political.

It is impossible to make anything that is free from political influence, because politics is inherent to human interaction.

Second, you aren't making everyone special. You're making differences INDIVIDUAL. As opposed to those differences being Ethnic.

Racial abilities inherently strip individuality from the equation, and burden entire populations with 'Specialness'. They do the exact opposite of what you're implying, by making it so every individual of a particular race is 'Special'. Every Redguard is a good Swordsman. Every Altmer is a good Mage.

You aren't encouraging specialness, you're forcing it.

And through forcing it, you're doing exactly what you're criticising.

[signal raptor]

Seems like a good time to change the subject.

Or at least dial back the political talk.

[wet forge]

He started it. I was just talking about game mechanics and took it personally

[quartz shuttle]

Technically it's sociology talk, because it's about how human interaction develops through the perpetuation of ideas, but point made.

The more important point is that Racial Stats actively do the total opposite of what their supporters claim the do, and are based on a perpetuation of antiquated ideas and mechanics that are, themselves, actively detremental to worldbuilding and gameplay.

[signal raptor]

Either way, I think we should either stop this specific discussion and move on, or find a way to stay within the #rules.

[wet forge]

Fine. Not races. What about classes, or at least background bonuses to better shape and optimize character builds?

[quartz shuttle]

Classes are even worse. Backgrounds are ok though.

[brave shoal]

if a lousy +5 skill point in something is too contriving, class ramp that up to eleven

[quartz shuttle]

They also dictate identities by creating a mono-typed identity that always hangs over your head. Pick a Knight? Well, you're a Knight FOREVER.

I am unaware of any job, outside the Mafia, which is your job for life

[brave shoal]

but class is more like a job/personal speciality than a racial buff. like someone raised in a knight order or around soldier may pick the ''knight'' class to reflect the martial lifestyle he got used to/is following. while the racial skill buff, mostly feel like a fleeting bonus, barely relevant early game and totally useless once you grinded the skill to max

[brisk perch]

Having a job or class is often just a historical title, like how people are sometimes referred to by their prior employment until they see them as the new one.

[brave shoal]

in skyrim, the only thing that influenced my choice never was skills, but the appearance of them and the one day use power they had if feeling less rp and more min/maxy, and even then, as 1xday power, too limited to ruin my life anyway

[wet forge]

@quartz shuttle Gotta ask. Why are you so against commitment? Typically people who play a character only intend to play specific way anyhow

[quartz shuttle]

Sure, but it's main flaw is it IMPOSES aptitude. It insinuates that everyone who is good at fighting is going to be a Knight, because it combines 'What you're good at' with 'What you know'

[quartz shuttle]

I'm not. I'm against bad mechanics that stifle character diversity, make no logical sense, and ultimately drive commitment in an inferior way

[brave shoal]

that why for exemple class in eso are made as bland as possible. so you can build whatever character concept with a loose set of skills

[quartz shuttle]

Making a choice at the beginning of the game that dictates your characters identity is bad game design.

Having a system that encourages, rather than mandates, commitment and makes you WORK for change is vastly supperior, and covers a far greater range of character possibilites.

Ironically, Skyrim's system does this as it stands, it's just under tuned. Higher level Skills give more EXP, meaning at higher levels trying to go off-spec slows down your leveling. It's just not drastic enough to really matter.

[brave shoal]

i dont really see the problem, if you envision your character to be a mage, you'd pick the mage class and build up from there for exemple?

[wet forge]

That is kinda how its designed regardless. For example, unless you invest in magicka, you're going to suck as a magic user unless you instead invest in enchantment

[quartz shuttle]

Sure. But what if something happens during your adventures that lead to a logical change in you character? What do you do?

Even D&D recognised the flaw in explicit classes, and allows Cross Classing

Because Characters can CHANGE over time. And those changes shouldn't require totally rerolling your character and starting over

[brave shoal]

like i said, only elder scrolls game i know with class, ESO, allow pure freedom. class only define some class skill, rest is up to you. mage can be classic robe wearing lightning throwing maniac or sword and shield melee tank in heavy armor

not all class system need to be as rigid as classic d&d

[quartz shuttle]

And it's better than, say, Oblivion. But ti's still inferior to Skyrim

I shouldn't pick on Oblivion of course, Morrowind did it too. There's just so much wrong with Oblivion it makes it an easy target

[brave shoal]

or try the final fantasy way where class are just switchable at will, creating something i'm not fan personally of one character mastering all/having nothing defining them since they can rewrite everything on a toggable switch

though eso have same ability,but class remain unchanging as a defining feature of your character

[quartz shuttle]

I mean, if you're leaning in to the 'Ability' system, maybe. Buuut, that's a whole other bucket of gribblies

You can just beat things with a stick, you don't need "Mega Stick Thwak!" to do it.

[brave shoal]

i play my mage in eso as a the purest classic mage the game allow,but i'm sure it easy to pick sorcerer and only use weapon skill and basically be a warrior as vanilla there is if inclined

[wet forge]

What, the perks? That's exactly why Skyrim isn't a good game for style changing. Perk points aren't easy to get back, where as you can do whatever you want in Oblivion. All classes do in that game is make it impossible to level up unless specific skills go up

[quartz shuttle]

But you're still relying on a basic system that is driven not by cardinal actions, but by specific behavioural abilities. In effect, EVERYTHING is a Spell

[brisk perch]

Everything is imagination, and imagination is the foundation of magic, thus, anything and everything can be a spell

[brave shoal]

i'm used to old d&d class/build planning, so i'm less fazzed about that kind of thing, i'm here with a specific character and build/faction i want to join and will carry that to the end. if i end up^wanting to try something else (like finding magic is more fun than barbarian) that just a second build waiting for next playthrough

[quartz shuttle]

No, Skill levels. When you level a skill, it gives you a certian mount of EXP. The higher the skill you leveled, the more EXP it gives you. And since you need more EXP at higher levels. And since Levels drive the Perk Economy this means it's generally more efficient for leveling to stick to a few high level Skills than to use lower level ones.

[brave shoal]

i play the game as a classic (more or less) rpg, not sim, so that on me not liking dynamic change disrupting my work midway for story reasons

[quartz shuttle]

So am i, i've been playing D&D since 2nd edition, and various sorts of CRPGs since the early 90s. But i look at systems and approaches which offer the most options for the least work.

Tradition or Classic Solutions are irrelevent.

[brave shoal]

remind me of kotor 1, start as a soldier/scoundrel (aka non jedic class) then after first planet you become jedi. like sure it work with the story but then first 5 or so level are irrelvant skill and grind weakening my jedi build that will become center of focus for rest of game.(which ruined my first run since my first character was so badly build because of that i got hard blocked on korriban)

so my second build focused on jedi,making my early game more annoying since i couldnt hit the side of a barn with guns

[quartz shuttle]

Because the system was inherent;y flawed and didn't allow you to react to changes, requiring you to know ahead of time what was going to happen and plan around it.

Thats not very organic character development, that's gaming a flawed system

[brave shoal]

when i play a game, i love my build to be set in stone before i even play. fluid evolution usually just annoy me since it become more chaotic and less orderly

mostly why now i consume every leak and beta data for games i plan to play, so i got a sketch where i'm going in

[quartz shuttle]

And that's fine, the problem is a system which REQUIRES you to play that way. Ideally you want one that allows both for forward planning, and free-form character development.

[wet forge]

@quartz shuttle You expect far too much from a game already riddled with bugs

[brave shoal]

for exmple, for fallout 76, the perks where all found weeks before beta, so i made a buiid, started it in beta and i still use the same build years later ignoring all change to meta because why change what work

[quartz shuttle]

No, i WANT far more from my games than the same tired garbage and repeated tropes.

I EXPECT a rusty pile of scrap that barely runs, but has just enough functionality to show what they were thinking

Let's be clear. I can still play and enjoy what i consider to be an outdated product. But i'm not going to settle for the Same-Old just because it's comfortable.

[wet forge]

You're still being unreasonable dude. No one has ever managed such a dynamic system

[quartz shuttle]

Yes, they have. Skyrim's system does literally everything i've said. it's just undertuned.

Slap in a Background selection to let you scale some starting Skills, but doesn't lock you into anything, and you're golden.

Even better, revive the now-dead Advantages and Disadvantages and put that in.

Now you've got literally every base covered, from Attributes to Skills to Classes to Birthsigns to Race. Except, you have far more room to create unique characters, far more room to develop those characters, and far more upward potential.

I will never talk about something on here that has not already been done elsewhere. I'll never be "It'd be cool if". I only bring up things we have actively SEEN being done, and how their smarter use could significantly better the games or the Genre.

But, i just realised this is the Lore board and not the General board, so the conversation belongs elsewhere.

In terms of Lore, the populations of Tamriel are all hte same species, with vague Phenotype differences and cultural identities. Outside of 'Beast' races, there are no noteworthy biological differences between them, so Racials don't make a heck of a lot of sense. A Dunmer raised by Redguard is going to be an Ash-Skinned, Pointy Eared Redguard, not an Ancestory Worshipping Fire Eating Dark Elf.

[wet forge]

Alright alright

[split pond]

Has anyone fed skooma to a giant before?

[gaunt bear]

Dragonborn: I had a friend who knew someone who tried that once. It didn’t turn out so well for anyone, and guess who had to clean that mess up?

[split pond]

What'd they do? Mix it with sleeping tree sap?

[gaunt bear]

Dragonborn: Let’s just say I’m glad I never started skooma in the first place, since it made the giants do THAT. In THERE. For THAT LONG. When all was said and done, even with my Dragonbone armor, I was still stuck in the Temple of Kynareth for a week.

[split pond]

Kinky

[gaunt bear]

It had nothing to do with that.

https://tenor.com/view/you-dont-wanna-know-george-zax-jk-simmons-goliath-s4ep4-gif-23201964

[rose coral]

Is fudge muppet here?

[quartz crane]

Not that I've seen. The best responses I've had from them is getting one or other of them on Twitter

[rose coral]

I see

[quartz crane]

What question did you have? If it's a general lore question, I'm sure we can give a decent answer here

[tender flint]

There are bird people right? I feel like i read or heard about them once, but i havent found any books playing through in skyrim. Idk if i read about them on a website, in the mod editor database thing, or if i imagined it 🙂

[dusky scaffold]

I think their only meantion was in Father of Niben

[gaunt bear]

Not going to lie, encountering a secret enclave of them in Skyrim would make for a great CC item.

[tender flint]

I want to say they had a distinct armor style or something.

And there is a whole civilization of them on the other continent?

[dusky scaffold]

which other continent, we have at least three

[quartz shuttle]

Which is, on it's own, a somewhat problematic text.

[gaunt bear]

Maybe a CC questline could be an examination of Father of Niben. I always like missions/quests that can’t be solved by hack-and-slash-and-hope-for-the-best.

[quartz shuttle]

That would require some competent writers who at least know how navigation works

[tender flint]

Three? I thought there ere two.

[quartz shuttle]

Atmora, what's left of Yokuda, and Akavir

[gaunt bear]

I’ll keep my hopes up. Thanks for mentioning that.

[tender flint]

Akavir! Isnt that their name?

[quartz shuttle]

The Akaviri are a collective name given to the multiple populations of the continent of Akavir

It's like calling the various cultures of Eastern Asia, Oriental.

It's more of a blanket oversimplification than a specific civilisation.

[quartz shuttle]

One of the first problems with Father of the Niben is it's prefacing it's legitimacy on referencing archaeological findings of orbs in Summerset which only revolve in a particular direction. The 3 variations of this are said to match the 3 directions ships were sent seeking magical sources that could be Aldmeris.

Problem is... An orb that rotates in a single direction is useless as a navigational aid. This isbecause, if your position changes along any other axis, it could radically change your end point even if you are still pointed in the direction the 'globe' spins. So, if the early Altmer were using these to navigate, they were just outright bad navigators. And that would call into question everything about their early travels, since their success relieson them at least having some clue what they're doing.

As such, it's either just a terribly written source by a Real World author who has no idea how navigation works... Or it's an attempt by an in-universe author to justify a vague mythic source's factual legitimacy using incomplete archaeology.

[gaunt bear]

Well, now.

https://tenor.com/view/mystery-gif-6112582

[tender flint]

Not uncommon for old stories to be marked by in-game historians as questionable.

I have always had a thing for bird folk, i have them in my d&d setting as a common species. It would be keen to have a mod with a small group of them in Skyrim. Could be similar to the Kajeet caravan?

Traveers from far far away.

Maybe at the college?

Is there some particular reason they havent appeared in the series? Like a "dwemer reason" kinda thing?

[quartz shuttle]

The only mention we have of them is from Father of the Niben. None of the Akaviri races fit an avian discription.

There is one hypothesis that they 'became' the Ayleids though

Buuuut... That is derived from the bird motifs in their art. Problem being, Altmeri art ALSO has a lot of bird motifs

[tender flint]

Oh! Ok, so no there isnt a bird avian race like Argonians and Kajeet. Well then i wonder where i got that idea. Arnt the blades katana Akavir-style?

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah, everything the Blades use is Akaviri. Specifically, from the Tsaesci

Who may or may not be Snake People. Probably not.

There MAY have been literal bird people at one point, but no one has seen anything from them in a few thousand years, it seems.

[dusky scaffold]

there's also the Sarpa, a subspecies of Argonians described as "winged"

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah, i've always hated how fan art depicts them...

They go full on Dragon, which is lame.

More like Draco reptiles would be more interesting. With leathery skin flaps between their arms and upper legs allowing them to glide.

[gaunt bear]

Sort of like flying squirrels?

[quartz shuttle]

Yes

[gaunt bear]

I don’t know about you, but I’d pay to see that.

[quartz shuttle]

Oh, derp... I totally forgot, there ARE Harpies

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/oopsie-oops-fail-sassy-chris-klemens-gif-11336158

[tender flint]

Nah nah, those are dremora/deadra. I mean beast race.

[quartz shuttle]

Nope, you're thinking Twilights

[dusky scaffold]

harpies are natural (or semi-natural)

[quartz shuttle]

Harpies are a mostly feral beast race common in the region of the Illiac Bay

[gaunt bear]

Only joking: so I guess we shouldn’t be expecting any cuddles from them anytime soon.

[tender flint]

Um.. huh? When did that happen? For clarity i tooled around in the builder while a friend played Morrowind, i got big in the mod community for Oblivion, and have played Skyrim pretty regularly ( well started over 8 times but ). So Im very comfortable with the setting, but this is the first i have heard of beast harpies to the south!?

[quartz shuttle]

Actually, they seem to be tamable. Their behaviour is far more like that of a bird, than most humanoids... but they do understand language and communicate with eachother.

[gaunt bear]

But no snugglies?

[quartz shuttle]

They originally appeared in Daggerfall. However, with the Redguard Rewrite and everything, their status was up in the air until they appeared in ESO

[quartz shuttle]

My ex had a cockatiel, and i can assure you, birds can snuggle.

https://images.uesp.net/thumb/8/85/ON-creature-Harpy_02.jpg/600px-ON-creature-Harpy_02.jpg

[gaunt bear]

But nothing PG-13+, right?

[quartz shuttle]

As of Morrowind, nothing PG-13+ happens in Tamriel, ever.

[tender flint]

Oh! So you can play them on ESO? Are there boy harpies?

[gaunt bear]

I’m a noodlehead and you’re not. Ha ha.

[quartz shuttle]

You can't play them, but they do appear in several zones. And no. All stories we have of them indicate that they actively capture males of other races for breeding.

Which... raises all kinds of questions i don't expect to actually have answered any time soon,

[tender flint]

The "mermaid problem" yeah.. ok. That certainly answers that lore question that has been lingering in my mind for awhile.

[quartz shuttle]

If Harpies exist, however, it does give a little more credibility to there being another variation of Bird-Men in Cyrodiil at one point

Unfortunately, leadership at Bethesda seems set to do the surface level, PG worldbuilding and not actually... you know... Deal with the consequences of said worldbuilding. So a lot of these sorts of questions just get shuffled off to the side and ignored.

[tender flint]

Elder Scrolls is a flagship product and they are a big boy company. I hope they are simply working on the parts they are working on rather than trying to fill out every little detail as soon as they are asked. I wouldnt be surprised if certain parts were changing slightly as we have all come along for the ride. I know as a world building on pen and paper games that certain major revision caused less major ripples to the primary setting timeline due to remaining vague enough about details i didnt feel were hammered. Until hammer came.. like when i introduced spider people for a player. I suddenly created a whole explanation as to why they hadnt

er.. been seen in the timeline much. They had dug a hole to the other side of the world.

They were inside the world more than they were interacting with everyone else's empires. Technically more of them than any other race since they are on the top and the bottom of the disk.

But back to bird men.. what information is there on the Beast Harpies? And, isnt there a harpy er winged glory? Daedra?

[quartz shuttle]

There is a winged Daedra called a Winged Twilight. MOST of them serve Azura, but they've been seen in hte service of Molag Bal, Mephala and Nocturnal.

Beyond that, ESO establishes that Harpies are matriarchal, because all known examples are female. They lay eggs, and can understand at least Tamrielic, and have their own primitive communications.

[tender flint]

Related to Hagravens perhaps?

[quartz shuttle]

They're relatively territorial, but have grown to trust some individuals. They're said to capture males of other races, though we never actually see this or hear about specific events, it's more of a rumour of fairy tale.

We know what Hagravens are. They're human or elf Witches who undergo a transformation to increase their own power.

[tender flint]

Harpies absconding with men is canonical harpie myth.

[quartz shuttle]

Harpies seem to be different than Hag Ravens.

[tender flint]

Oh! I did not know that.. huh..

In the popular Xanth series they were a special type of female only goblin that would kidnap young male goblins and keep them as mate slaves.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah, that's sort of the worldbuilding problem... If Harpies did have to kidnap males from other races, you'd expect it to be more than a myth, or for their populations to be far lower than they are.

Unless they're preying on Goblins...

[brave shoal]

maybe they prey on goblin or other minor race males because weaker/less chance for coordinated response to wipe them out if said victim race get too annoyed at the kidnapping?

[tender flint]

Goblins.. there are goblins too!? Why does no one tell anyone about these things. I know there are imps and of course Orcs/Orismere. Where are there goblins? Are they in Skyrim anywhere? Wait.. are the Rusklings goblins or a minor race like the Harpies?

Reiklings i mean.

[timber bough]

They're in Cyrodiil, for example

[quartz shuttle]

There were Goblins in Oblivion as well

[timber bough]

Rieklings are supposedly a variation of Goblins, too

[quartz shuttle]

Goblins and Ogres are Orc-Adjacent races. Both are still associated with Malacath, though we aren't entirely sure of the exact relation between them

[tender flint]

Ok! Got one for five so far..

Giants as well then?

[quartz shuttle]

Yes

Men are actually descended from Giants, which appear in Skyrim, ESO, and TES; Legends

[tender flint]

And all the races are ultimately the same species because they can all interbreed.

[quartz shuttle]

Eeeeeh... Jury is out

[tender flint]

Wait would that make Men and Orcs related as beast races then?

[quartz shuttle]

According to Notes on Racial Phylogeny, Men and Elves can reproduce no problem. There are stories about offspring between Beast Races and Men/Mer, but the author of the book couldn't find any clear doccumentation of them.

[brave shoal]

i remember seeing a tribe of goblin in shadowfen (in eso), some dark elf used a tribe as cheap worker until they got a new chief and they decided to stop working and taskmaster send you to kill him in hope they return to work (then another npc come in and ask you to convince the tribe to migrate since he say their ply is similar to what argonian as himself had when ''working'' for the dark elves)

[quartz shuttle]

All living things descend from a class of spirits called the Ehlnofey However, Men and Mer seem to be the most closely related of Ehlnofey populations. The origins of most of hte Beast Races remains unclear, except for the Khajiit who were Mer who were taken by Azura and turned into Cats.

And Argonians, who were shaped by the Hist (sapient magical trees in Blackmarsh) to serve as their servants

[tender flint]

Oh.. shaped, but what about the Tiger-Dragon Argonian Kajiit .. i know i read something about there being those on ( again the other continent ).

[quartz shuttle]

The Ka Po'tun, the Tiger People of Akavir ruled by Tosh Raka (notice how it's similar to Akatosh?) the Dragon Tiger.

Their origins are not explored. So we don't really know.

[tender flint]

Ok, so i did read that! Good deal. The Hist, that is located in Blackmarsh correct?

[brave shoal]

i wonder how wild a game set on that other continent would be

[timber bough]

Part of me really wants to explore Akavir in a game or DLC, but then again the mystery being lost would be kinda sad too

[quartz shuttle]

The 4 known races of Akavir are;

The Kamal, 'Snow Demons'.

The Tsaesci; The Vampire Snakes who are probably just humans.

The Tang Mo; Monkey people probably similar to the Imga of Valenwood.

The Ka Po'tun; The Tiger people.

[tender flint]

Tsaesci certainly sounds Argonian to me..

[timber bough]

Well, so far their depictions in all games that show them have been as humans

[brave shoal]

they called the snake people but also they may be just human since some of them became part of imperial court in cyrodil for a century or two if i remember,so maybe they're just human/humanlike with vaguely snake feature? especially since the tsaeci people in cyrodil werent described as much different from imperial

[timber bough]

Akaviri Potentates ruled the Reman Empire for ~4 centuries

[brave shoal]

maybe they got the snake people name because their military armor make them look like snake and since most interaction with them are them trying to invade tamriel, it could be just that

[timber bough]

Keep in mind vampire snakes could just be an allegory for them

[tender flint]

Devious, man eater.. very possible.

But no Mer on Akavir?

[timber bough]

Tough to say, we don't know

It could well be that the tiger people are an offshoot of the Khajiit, which would make them mer

But we have no idea

[tender flint]

But, they do show up in some games? Oh!! Fajiit are Mer!? whoh.. i was today years old..

[quartz shuttle]

Eeeeh... based on everything we've seen over the last 20 years... It's actually worse than that

[timber bough]

So far only Tsaesci have shown up, I don't know if ESO directly showed any Kamal

[tender flint]

Snow Elves.. disappeared from our main continent at some point long ago right?

[timber bough]

They were genocided pretty much

[brave shoal]

yeah, and the few survivor are too few to rebuild as far skyrim show

[timber bough]

There may be a few surviving enclaves of them hiding somewhere, but that's about it

[tender flint]

Hello, more on this?

[brave shoal]

and since nord see them still as evil elves, if they showed up again i wouldnt be surprised if the nord would try to wipe them out again to make sure they remain gone for good

[quartz shuttle]

Every example of the Tsaesci we've seen has been human. So the 'Snake like' is probably a throwback to derogatory descriptions of people of eastern Asian descent through most of early RPG literature. They've tried to recover it a bit in ESO by including snake mask references, buuut..

[quartz shuttle]

They are mentioned once in the book The Argonian Account

[timber bough]

ehh, Saarthal is probably a name to the average Nord but I don't think they'd have such a bloodthirsty reaction unless the Snow Elves somehow went on a conquest for Skyrim

[brave shoal]

in eso tsaeci use snake motif on their armor and i think they where refered as pale human, so hence the ''vampire snake'' people

[quartz shuttle]

Snow Elves are the 'Boogymen' of Nord fairy tales. So, probably not a genocidal response, but not a positive one.

[brave shoal]

hell, maybe they sharpen their teeths to look more threatening/for some obscure fashion in their homeland that make them look more fearsome to average tamrielic people

[timber bough]

Yeah, probably roughly on the level of the worst ways Nords treat Mer

But not anywhere near as intense as it was back in the heyday of their conflict with them

[timber bough]

Just a little quip but sharpening teeth is present in many cultures and not always done to terrify others, could well be that they just do it because it's a tradition

Sometimes I wonder how the original plot for Skyrim could've played out if they had Uriel accompanied by an army of Tsaesci or something the like

[brave shoal]

but i dont think it a thing that common for tamriel main races though (maybe khajiit/argonian at best?) so could be seen as weird and add to the aura of ''monstrous snake men'' the tsaeci represent. that and also the fact everytime they show up on tamriel,it to basically to ransack and murder everything they meet in a bid for conquest

[tender flint]

OCD related tooth cleaning resulting in notable teeth grooves and that cleanliness association combining with cosmetic considerations, yes i am personally pretty aware of tooth sharpening. Related to brushing your teeth with a knife or stick.

[timber bough]

So far every time the Tsaesci and people of Tamriel interacted it was usually in the context of them being a seemingly invincible enemy, the last big interaction being Uriel V's invasion of Akavir

There's likely a fair bit of fear colouring the public/academic perception on them

[quartz shuttle]

Mostly because... Well... Cyrods are kind of incompent, and need Heroes to bail them out

[timber bough]

don't tell em that

[brave shoal]

could draw parallel with how huns/the mongol where depicted by european when they showed up. mysterious and scary demon men coming to destroy everything

[timber bough]

It's actually funny how much of a complete failure the invasion of Akavir was

[tender flint]

Ha! I have a set of those in three different houses right now.. sigh.. need to get a new xbox though. Optical lens is failing me, and it wont let me download Skyrim.

I had a friend who said with certainty that the Falmer are the Snow Elves. Or ..what became of them. Like Chimmer and Dunmer.

[timber bough]

They are

[tender flint]

Cool i would call them, but im sure they know. Lol.

We were making a snow elf mod for Oblivion when at the time. Reincarnation based, you were going to end up in a spirit realm everytime you died. No saves necessary.. it was a neat idea.

[brave shoal]

yeah, falmer are the result of those who took refuge with the dwemer and took the poison the dwarve gave them

[tender flint]

Whats the name of that book?

[brave shoal]

still wondering why the dwemer did that. not like they really needed slaves since they can build as many robot they wanted anyway

[tender flint]

Something something cold and logical?

[timber bough]

Maybe they just wanted to knock out one of their many territorial enemies

Keep in mind the Dwemer presence reached from Morrowind all the way to Hammerfell, they had a lot of enemies and the Snow Elves were no doubt one of them

So taking them in with the caveat of crippling them not just for life but generationally was a cruel but in their eyes "logical" action

[tender flint]

Are there any Dwemer strongholds or civilizations left?

[timber bough]

None as far as we know

[tender flint]

There was a "last one" in Oblivion right? In one of the expansions?

[brave shoal]

but since history of both races are mostly erased/lost, maybe they wanted revenge for some perceived slight in the past and let their desire of revenge make them that error that will bite them back later

[timber bough]

Some Dwemer ruins continue to be inhabited by ghosts of the Dwemer, but they must've passed before the Battle of Red Mountain and you can't speak to them

[quartz shuttle]

They tried to save the Falmer, but the Falmer rejected their reachings.

[brave shoal]

judging by how many reality wrecking experiment they did, i wouldnt be surprised some dwemer ruins with ghost are result of a curse or some experiment gone wrong to be honest

[quartz shuttle]

That's my hypothesis anyway. Mostly because the Dwemer being cruel for the sake of cruelty is dumb as hek

[timber bough]

Consider that Morrowind was an active battleground for a time during Dumac's and Nerevar's alliance

It was occupied by the Nords, so it's not impossible some battles led to Dwemer strongholds being slaughtered and the ghosts you see in them are their remnants

[brave shoal]

they didnt try to save them, they turned blind to become slave and when they revolted they waged an endless war underground that only ended when all dwemer vanished mysteriously after kagrenac got his toy ready

[tender flint]

At some point i got the idea in my head that the cosmogeny of it would work if Red Mountain exploded with the birth of the last Dwemer. Considering some of the aetherium constructs being used in the Nern Mechanus the birth of the last would be in some sense more powerful than the death of the last. And, not necessarily the same individual. Er, world builder 🤠

[brave shoal]

so they just took the refugee in, turned them into blind monster to be ideal slave,then slave revolt happened with no end in sight despite their tech and magic advantage. so at least karma biten the dwemer back on that case

[quartz shuttle]

Calcelmo's stone indicates something else.

They sent their automata to rescue the surviving Falmer, and made a deal with them. The exact terms of that deal are unknown, but we know the Falmer AGREED to the blinding.

Now, there is a major difference between what we know of the Dwemer's world view, and what we know of the Falmer's (which seems to be roughly analogous to the Altmer's).

At it's core, the Falmer view mundus as a prison to escape. The Dwemer view it, and potentially the entire Aubris, as a LIE.

[timber bough]

hmm

This is sheer conjecture, but know the Dwemer device in Skyrim that you use to read an Elder Scroll?

[tender flint]

Technically correct, 🤔 considering they are a shared madness by ourselves..

[timber bough]

What if the Dwemer tried to develop a way to see that would allow them to peek into things such as the Elder Scrolls without going blind, and used the Snow Elves as guinea pigs?

[tender flint]

Oh.. deal - bet you guys all read this first and we will figure out why which ones didnt go blind.. ok, now work.

[timber bough]

With how weirdly the Dwemer viewed everything, maybe their definition of blindness was different from what we consider it

[quartz shuttle]

Whereas Mer seek to escape Mundus, the Dwemer sought to uncover the truth of existence.

Calcelmo's Stone specifically references that the Dwemer asked the Falmer to accept a new reality, and the blinding was part of that.

Now... What if the Dwemer were trying to get the Falmer to switch over to their way of thinking, a perspective inherently linked to Tonal Architecture and the 'music' of creation? By blinding them, they hoped to help the Falmer to look past the lie that was right before their eyes, and recognize what the Dwemer beleived was the 'Truth'. The Fifteen-and-One tones.

In essence, the Dwemer were trying to convert the Falmer, into Dwemer, ideologically.

[timber bough]

If you think about it, they aren't even the only ones to get blinded as part of a "deal" to be absorbed into a new reality

consider sleepers in Morrowind

[tender flint]

Keeping in mind that they have also been robbed of their right to corporeal immortallity and have now all relocatted to the greater aetherium.. mind woggles.. this all makes allot of cliper, i mean the blue thing.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah, 'Conversions' to ideologies relating to Tonal Engineering do have a running theme of blinding...

[brave shoal]

oh yeah, they accepted to save the snow elve from the human if they accepted to eat the fungus, once they got blinded they enslaved them. later the falmer grew fed up and revolted,ending in a non stop war on the already weakened skyrim dwemer city states (who where weakened by their aetherium wars)

[tender flint]

Sleepers in morrowind?

[timber bough]

If I were to guess, the Snow Elves blinding was likely an experiment gone awry, considering how far off from being civilized the Falmer are

Dagoth Ur was a lot more succesful in organizing his blind slaves followers

[quartz shuttle]

I don't think it's as simple.

The Falmer agreed to the Dwemer's terms. Then, later, it became apparent to the Dwemer that the Falmer were not giving up their old ways. Struggle ensued, with the Falmer ultimately being enslaved.

[timber bough]

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Ash_Zombie

[quartz shuttle]

Think about the Statue of Irnkingand. Where did it come from? It certainly wasn't MOVED there. It must having been built in place. And it's in a cavern, not a worked living space in a Dwemer ruin.

My proposition is that the Falmer built is AFTER being blinded, as a place where they could continue to worship THEIR gods, in violation of their agreement. When discovered, the Dwemer had a crisis of their own to deal with. They had let the Falmer into their halls, made them privy to their secrets, and the Falmer had rejected their ideology.

[tender flint]

This all happened around the time of the Red Mountain explosion. During the aetherium war. Now the sleeper zombies and general undead while possible invested with ghosts are simply types of autronaok. Not proper man or mer.

[quartz shuttle]

Probably a bit earlier.

[timber bough]

Corprus physically mutates people and seems to merge them into a collective consciousness of sorts

[tender flint]

Ya know.. since they could have been breeding as smaller groups of Mer.. but since that is a lotto card.. and they all just came out Falmer in one generation and that was the end of them?

Yeah.. the Chimmer to Dunmer thing has always rocked my wobbles.

[timber bough]

The Falmer as we see them in Skyrim likely took a lot of generations to become what they were, but by the time of Skyrim they're apparently gaining intelligence and trying to penetrate the surface

Chimer -> Dunmer was different, as it was a curse by Azura

[quartz shuttle]

The current condition of the Falmer is also unclear. It's beleive that some form of mushrooms did it... But when you look at those in the Forgotten Vale, their diet doesn't seem any different, yet their intelligence is growing.

So, clearly, whatever caused their condition has to be absent from their colonies in the Forgotten Vale. I have 2 hypotheses regarding this. Aetherium, and Sunlight.

[tender flint]

What are know problems with Aetherium?

[quartz shuttle]

We don't know of any, beyond the fact it's a difficult to refine resource that the Dwemer states of Skyrim fought amongst themselves over.

However, we DO know that Mer in particular are prone to rather radical physiological shifts when exposed to different magical influences. What if, regardless of the REASON for their enslavement, the Falmer were used to mine the Aetherium. And it's the continued dwelling in those mines and tunnels that perpetuates their state

[tender flint]

Ohh.. Falmer built mines, revolt.. hmm..

[quartz shuttle]

It's only colonies which have moved well away from Aetherium deposits which have started to regain a degree of more complex intelligence.

[timber bough]

The thing that kinda speaks against that is that a lot of the Falmer tunnels seem very primitive and not like mines

simultaneously we don't ever see a proper Dwemer mine so it's anyone's guess tbh

[tender flint]

Um, also - Churus.. special relation of any kind? Just a bug? Intelligence level?

Yeah they all look like pretty much finished facilities. Excavations.

Red Mountain happened roughly a thousand years prior to Skyrim?

[timber bough]

about 3000 i think?

[quartz shuttle]

Like any domesticated animal, probably selectedby the Falmer for their practical use

Closer to 3000 if memory serves

[tender flint]

whoh.. the time scale there has always been unclear, but i knew it was in k not hundreds.

[quartz shuttle]

Tamriel's history, from the first day of the Merethic, to Skyrim, is about 7500 years

[tender flint]

Bugs with lungs, thats what i thought. Kajiit are Mer.. learned something today.

[quartz shuttle]

So are Orcs

[tender flint]

My characters in Skyrim are very present and it has been not a needed thing for me to consider allot of the scope of history, but im to the wizard now .. and i just got the aetherium crown for the fist time. I am but ready to return to the main quest from an RPG perspective while considering the locations i placed the other character "at this metastatic point" in my story weave.

I knew about Orismer, but i thought the Ko pah Tun where a progenitor species of both Argonians and Kajiit. I thought the Argonians were marshified Kao Po Tun

At one point i was under the impression that the argonian eggs had to be gestated in the Hist Trees, but it is the other way around right? The Trees need the argonians to germinate their seeds?

[timber bough]

ESO shows clutches of Argonian eggs being stored below a Hist tree, whether that's the norm everywhere else and outside Black Marsh we don't really know

[tender flint]

My Nightengale is ( :smirk Shea ) is an Argonian. Wildfire the wizard is Kajiit. Aventius is... well. And Talos. "His mama named him Talos" is the Skald Villiage Head Boy on his pilgramige to the standing stones who winds up getting caught up with the crew. A master of Restoration and Heavy armor 🤠

There is also Ssarh ( aka the Argonian wife from Windhelm ).

Bizzaro D'Jargo.. from the college.. An orc also named Talos. A fellow Honor Hall cadet named Crist, imperial.

Crist marries Isolda. Runs the Falkreth winery.

[quartz shuttle]

To be fair...we only know of one Argonian for sure born out of Blackmarsh

And... he's basically autistic.

[timber bough]

We can't really say for sure that he is so because of his distance to the Hist or not, keep in mind

ESO has done a lot to emphasize diversity

[tender flint]

Really? I thought they were beiung born all over the place.. wow.. a DLC about Argonians bringing a Hist to Morthal marshes would be cool...

[timber bough]

They probably are being born all over the place, it doesn't seem like Hist sap or proximity to the Hist is necessary for an Argonian to live

[tender flint]

Well, there are a couple of symbiotic tree people species in scify.

Gestationally/Conceptionally symbiotic.

Ender's Game has an alien tree pig species who are live birth but they kangaroo them in these trees, and them eating the seeds in the trees somehow germinates them.. and then when they die they turn into the tree and hence the tree is both a tree and the dead pig.. very weird.

Blackmarsh is coming out, soon? So we will know shortly enough on that regard.

[quartz shuttle]

Well, that one quest in ESO confirms that it's not necessary. It is implied that the lack of it makes them unable to read certain social cues from other Argonians however, which would indicate that it's necessary for the particularities of at least Blackmarsh's argonian socieities

That said, the Hist using it as a way to subtly ostracise non-hist Argonians only reinforces the less than stellar relationship between the Argonians and their 'gods'

[timber bough]

The thing with that is, as far as ESO shows a lot of toys and other cultural objects that the Argonians use and have their children play with seem to base on Hist sap - maybe it's not so much them ingesting Hist sap but simply partaking in the culture that revolves around Hist sap that makes these Argonians integrate into Black Marsh's culture

That'd explain why an Argonian born into other cultures would have a hard time living into Black Marsh's if they had no prior experience with it

It's not much different from a real life person born in a different culture trying to acclimate to their forefather's

[quartz shuttle]

Considering the potency of Hist Sap as a chemical reagent, it think it's likely those young Argonians are regularly absorbing some quantity of it from said toys

[timber bough]

Been a while but I think they have pacifiers made from solid Hist sap, so yeah

[quartz shuttle]

Like an entire society of heroin users... Actually... Oblivion's Fighters Guild make a bit more sense now, in a way..

Khajiit may not be the only drug-dependent society

[tender flint]

From skkoma, moonsugar, to mead.. ya know. But is the gleam trees bear any resemblance to the Hist?

Elder and Gilder gleam?

[quartz shuttle]

We don't know, but there's more than a few theories about it

[tender flint]

You get The Seed when you marry ( i just call her Ssarh because of my story ) and even if they dont there could still be some kind of relation. Particularly if they are two 3000 year evolutions of a tree that was all but eradicated.

Ok.. glad we thought of it!

Makes me want to have Shea born in Skyrim, like Wildfire. Xian, her private name ( i have the Kajiit pronunciation perfect ), was adopted and raised in Solitude after her parents caravan was slain.

[gaunt bear]

Uh… what?

[tender flint]

It says the trees were all but eradicated and only a version of the plant survives.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah, the Elder Gleam seems to be some sort of special tree of a very rare variety, the only other example seeming to be the one in Whiterun.

The options for the quest's outcome are either damage the Elder Gleam to heal the one in Whiterun, or take back a seed so they can grow and entirely new one, which will take much longer but... you know... Not involve potentially murdering a sapient tree

[tender flint]

The only other sapient trees are the Hist tho?

[quartz shuttle]

On Tamriel, that we know of. There were also the Um-Hist on Umbriel, though we aren't sure exactly where they're from.

[tender flint]

Um..bri..el?

[quartz shuttle]

Ooooh boy, that was a whole thing

It's from the 2 novels

[tender flint]

Aetherium related??

[quartz shuttle]

No. Clavcus Vile related

[tender flint]

My familiarity with the landscape of The Oblivion proper is sorely lacking.

Wow.. Kajiit are mer.. wait.. Orc and Kajiit, do they live as long as regular Mer?

[quartz shuttle]

Long story short, after Vivec disappeared, Baar Dau (the meteor above Vivec City) started to move. 2 Dunmer, Sul and Vuhon, constructed a device powered by the sword Umbra which would keep it in place, but it ran on human sacrifice. When Sul' lover was slated to be sacrificed, he sabotaged the machine, causing the Red Year and transporting himself and Vuhon, their device, and a bunch of others into Clavicus Vile's realm.

The event seperated the entity Umbra from the sword (which remained in Tamriel) and Vuhon and Umbra conspired together to steal Vile's power. They managed to injure Vile and escape, but to prevent them from getting away, Vile 'sealed off' his realm so nothing could leave. Vuhon and Umbra, now joined and calling themselves Umbriel, wrapped a 'bubble' around a city they had claimed so they could partially travel to other realms, searching for a way to break Vile's barrier.

So, Umbriel became a floating, transdimensional city that would move from realm to realm, consuming souls to power it's self, until it eventually was summoned to Tamriel.

[inner dock]

Why do I keep seeing people drop the H from Khajiit.

[quartz shuttle]

Because it's not a natural letter combination for english speakers

[tender flint]

Kah not Kha.. floating city eating souls.. ok.. another new item to add to my cosmoginic mechanus for the whole.. it is Nirn right? Mundus, Nirn.. the planet per se?

[quartz shuttle]

Nirn is the planet, Mundus is the 'Plane' said planet is in

[tender flint]

And corpus.. just the individual life right?

Curse of Corpus, this mortal coil.

[quartz shuttle]

Corpus is a particular disease created and spread through the divine power of Dagoth Ur.

It's... a whole weird thing. Kind of like a Plague with a hive-mind.

[timber bough]

Corprus is arguably Dagoth Ur's "blessing", which is why it's usually impossible to cure

[tender flint]

Ow.. eww. Orchender must die..

[inner dock]

Think of it's effect like Geonoshans in Star Wars.

[timber bough]

Unfortunately I don't know what that is

Can you elaborate?

[tender flint]

Rabid aging.

Geonoshans make it so the clones mature rapidly, but takes a normal human lifespan down to about 30 years.

[timber bough]

Corprus is moreso being forcibly subsumed into Dagoth, both changing your body and making your mind as one with the rest of House Dagoth

[inner dock]

That's Kaminoans.

[tender flint]

Erp.. Mechanusies..

[inner dock]

Geonoshans are the bugs in the arena scene from AotC.

[timber bough]

In TES lore terms it's sort of building a new dream within the dream

[tender flint]

Like a d&d mirror plane? Here but through the looking glass?

[timber bough]

The way Corprus beasts in Morrowind talk, to them it's effectively another kind of being, a dream in of itself

[quartz shuttle]

Or like a cancer spreading through and taking over this one.

[timber bough]

That's another way to describe it

[tender flint]

I like how the material realm in ESO is less.. material, lol.

TES! There we go!

Mundus Mechanus of ESO, filed archived.

[quartz shuttle]

It is a dangerous rabbit hole to go down

[tender flint]

This model was outfitted for Mechanus analysis, speaking of - Khajiit --- Mer, elaborate. 😁

[inner dock]

Dunmer, Dwemer, Altmer, Orsimer, Bosmer, Falmer, Chimer. That's what I can remember off the top of my head.

[tender flint]

Exactly, how do the Aelyids and Khajiit fit in yhere?

[inner dock]

Literally "Dark Elves, Dwarves, High Elves, Orcs, Wood Elves, Snow Elves, Changed Elves."

[quartz shuttle]

Khajiit and Bosmer share an origin. When Y'ffre made his agreement with the Bosmer, Azura took some and instead of giving the shape-shifters 1 stable form, gave them 16 bound by the phases of the Moons.

[inner dock]

It's extremely difficult to find anything definitive about the lore. It's mostly extrapolating.

I'd like to know the exact phases of Masser and Secunda when Inigo was born.

[tender flint]

ok, so that super reinforces my choice to have Xian be the one who is fortild of by azura in the black star questline.

but, again the lifespan question. Altmer and Bosmer live hundreds of years. I had assumed Orc did not because they were closer to beast races, but am i wrong.. do Khajiit and Orismer live as long as the others?

[quartz shuttle]

Orcs very, VERY rarely die of old age. Their culture doesn't really suit it

Khajiit, we don't know. It's generally assumed their lifespans are more like that of a Human

Elven lifespans are a matter of debate

[tender flint]

Really i thought it was the standard elf dwarf logevity scale.. if it was and slid all the way to orcs, with Khajiit effectively the human scale.. that would put the Sun Elves at the longest lived?

[quartz shuttle]

The Real Barenziah states that Elves can live up to a thousand years, though few ever make it that far.

However, other sources, such as Interview with a Dark Elf, and Loremasters Q&A for ESO, say it's a max of 200 and 300 respectively.

Buuuut, this is complicated even further by the ages of individuals in the games we can establish either exact ages for, or approximate ranges for. On average, even low class Mer seem to be living for 200-300 years, with nobility regularly living for 400-500.

[tender flint]

ok.. well, that just seems like something people should know in general.. maybe its the distorted hero perspective.. but still guilds.. and dont forget the idea of life extension potions and magic.

[quartz shuttle]

So, either magical life extension is way more common for Mer than humans (who live a comparatively normal span) or the higher range is more likely.

I've proposed a solution on r/TESLore that i would say solves the problem, but it's not officially confirmed or entirely accepted in the lore community yet.

[inner dock]

Neloth is in both Skyrim and Morrowind. I can't remember how long it is between them. He doesn't appear to have aged much at all.

[tender flint]

couple hundred years at least.. 4? 5?

[quartz shuttle]

200

[inner dock]

The most that seems to have happened is he's lost some weight in his face.

[quartz shuttle]

But he's already a Telvanni council member in Morrowind, and implied to be an older one. So he's likely already a few hundred in Morrowind.

[inner dock]

200 from Oblivion to Skyrim. Even longer for Morrowind.

[tender flint]

yeesh, time accordian, this is going to end up a joke in my story. Shea and Aventious teaching Talos the history of the Empire, and bookish Xian going.. uh, what?

[quartz shuttle]

Well, about 205

[quartz shuttle]

Oh, there are ABSOLUTELY Elves alive who remember Tiber Septim

[inner dock]

It'd be fun if Neloth makes it into TES6, and we find an autobiography or something.

I get the feeling he's well over 500.

[tender flint]

And super magical.. The lessons you learn here will last you a lifetime, several if you are lucky 😏

[inner dock]

That sounds like too humble a quote for Neloth. He lives in a giant mushroom on Solstheim in 4E200-4E201.

[quartz shuttle]

Which is why examples like Neloth and Divath Fyr may not be indicative of the norm.

We know 4000 year old Mer like Fyr are not common.

However... Mer in teh 200-300 range are VERY common. And according to the Loremasters Q&A, that should be the upper extent of their lifespan.

[inner dock]

The rest we've met seem to not exceed 200 to 300 years old.

[quartz shuttle]

Issue being... Humans, today, with all our medical advances, live on average, to about half our lifespan.

[inner dock]

Basically not much past the elven teen years.

[quartz shuttle]

The idea that Mer in Tamriel regularly push the end of their lifespans is... Well, frankly it's just silly.

It's far more likely that 200-300 is the average life EXPECTANCY, with 1000 being their natural span.

For example, Humans have a theoretical lifespan of 150 years. The oldest person in recorded history was 122.

The average lifespan of someone in the developed world isbetween 78 and 85 (depending on the country and their sex)

[inner dock]

I think there's one Telvanni mage in Morrowind that's gone senile, so if we find her age, we can get a rough idea.

When you ask to be named Hortator, she calls you a Humidor.

[quartz shuttle]

Could be drugs man

[inner dock]

She'd have to be on a Skooma that'd destroy the strongest Khajiit to get that bad.

[tender flint]

There is a theory that a custome crafted "ambrosia" formulated at birth could make real earth humans live.. 300+ but purely hypothetical.. requiring not just gene mapping, but a much more rigorous understanding of organic chemistry and dna timelines than we currently have.

Organ statis maintenace with gene editing etc.

[inner dock]

Let's bring this back to Elder Scrolls lore, please.

[tender flint]

Anyhow, The Telvanni Council files in the Morrowind data, deffinately sounds solid for an age potential.

[tender flint]

I just want to know how long Wildfire expacts to live, or if this may be legit something her adopted parents couldnt tell her for some reason.

[quartz shuttle]

Well, there IS magical age extension in TES

You could also make a deal with a Daedra

But, in general. Humans live 50-80. Elves live 200-300. Orcs seem to rarely live past 50, though that's because someone kills them.

Khajiit and Argonians generally are assumed to have human-like age ranges

[tender flint]

Ok, whew.. i was kinda reeling. She plans on living quite a long time, but by way of her studies of deadric artifacts.

[split pond]

Did the Khajiit put up a strong resistance when Tiber Septim set his sights on them?

[quartz shuttle]

We don't know. That stage of the Tiber Wars isn't known, or fleshed out.

[tender flint]

Just here recently i decided. Talos has the mace and hammer. Avetus has the spell and his forged bone blade. Shea has the dagger and a spell, and Xian is going to wielding the star and wabbajack 😏 which i have a funny equipment mod idea to let you equip the star as a visible weapon.

Elsewhere isnt even on the Horizon yet right?

[quartz shuttle]

We have no idea. The general belief is that the next game will be Hammerfell, but no one knows for sure.

[tender flint]

In my mind Elsewhere is Shapier from QfG 2&3.

[split pond]

According to UESP, Tiber Septim did conquer Elsweyr through battle.

[quartz shuttle]

First off, i commend your choice of inspiration

Second, we do see Elsweyr in ESO. And... it's basically Shapier.

[quartz shuttle]

Yes, but we don't know the details on it's conquest. Whether the Khajiit put up much of a fight, whether or not he played the kingdoms against eachother, etc.

[tender flint]

Oh really... how much was it to play a Khajiit again?

[quartz shuttle]

Just the basic game. Though hte Elsweyr quests are towards the end of the Dominion questline, and hten as one of the expansions

[tender flint]

Eh, just want to play the cat. I may be seeing everyone there sooner than expected then.. if we can landstride in the warm sands 😏👍

[quartz shuttle]

The Elseweyr expansion adds NPCs of different Furstock as well. You can't play them, unfortunately, but you get to engage with a few

[tender flint]

Yay.. i thought i had confirmed they were not in Elsewwyr. Must of missed or forgot to make not of that expansion.

But! New computer is supposed to be coming, so yay. New Skyrim, and Elsewhyer you say?

[quartz shuttle]

Bethesda has largely avoided a lot of the weirder or more complicated aspects of the lore.

Zenimax Online is not so afraid.

[tender flint]

You mentioned a "solution" to the shapeshifter issues with the Bosmer and Khajiit?

Also, are saber cats Khajiit like that one book says or is that messed up?

[quartz shuttle]

At some point in the past, the ancestors of both the Bosmer and Khajiit, who were by some sources a group of Aldmer (and others the spiritual precursors to the Aldmer) were shapeless, constantly shifting from one form to another.

The god Y'ffre offered them stability and a single form, and in exchange they would protect and serve his Green (Valenwood). Some accepted, and became the Bosmer. Others refused, and were locked away in the earth to become the Ooze (Bosmeri boogymen). Others were taken by Azura and offered a 'better deal'. They could have 16 forms instead of only 1, but in exchange they would safeguard her Lunar Lattice.

[quartz shuttle]

No, Saber Cats are their own thing.

[tender flint]

Ok, 16 forms you were saying?

[quartz shuttle]

Yes. They range from House Cats, to something similar to a Saber Cat, to people who look like Elves, to the Khajiit we more commonly recognise.

Basically... Lets see if this works...

https://78.media.tumblr.com/5119cf24c9806221c566f9b67f1acf3e/tumblr_inline_ovlpk61G6C1rey9sk_1280.jpg

[tender flint]

Oh.. so they are related to each other.. hmm.

Are they able to in essence choose? At birth?

[quartz shuttle]

No, it's determined by the phases of the moon at the time of birth

[tender flint]

No proly not, just thinking Mer shapeshifter..

Time and Phase of Moon.. oh, yeah and there are snow pelted Khajiit..

[quartz shuttle]

however, they are ALL Khajiit. While some varieties can't speak Tamrielic, they can all speak Ta'agra, the Khajiiti native language.

And they are all biologically compatible. Though i imagine hte logistics of an Afliq mother and a Senche Raht father could be... complicated.

[tender flint]

Yeah.. Ta'agra.. i thought up Xian ( imagine just the quietest mew in Ta'agra ).

All the other characters are going to have a hard time saying it, ecept the Nightengale's mimicry. Conspicuously so as to reinforce the Wildfire name.

ArchMage Wildefire that is. Only her friends try and call her by her real name.

Shea is also going to meet Brand and be all like "I believe that is pronounced Shee'a'e'a'ea witha breath"

The Bizzaro D'Jargo is going to help run the Shingle with Shea, Shei, and oh.. whats his name, the Bee and Barb wizard that follows Talos and Aventus around..

Sorry, most of my questions are revolving around my silly story.

I have this while sequence planned where Shea, Talos, and Aventus are climbing the thousand steps and Talos haulss off and kills a bear and Aventus has a fit = "You cannot commit any act of violence while making this pilgramege!! We have to return to whitestone and Atone before we can go on!"

[quartz shuttle]

That's perfectly alright

That's one of the best parts of these games, being able to use them to shape your own story

[tender flint]

So far i have a place in Aventus's enterauge for all the Followers except Cicero. Ba'gruffia the orc girl joins Aventus and Wildfire in a search for Malacoth's Hammer, and then Her and the Orc named Talos fight by Aventus's side and take over the Orc Villiage near Riften, mainly because that should be done asap so as to keep the majority of the tribe alive. I decided that she needs to be the third quest. Mjoll on the other hand is.. Mjoll and just the sidequest that also involves the Nightengale breaking out of the unbreakable prison in.. less than 24 hours 😏

[quartz shuttle]

Heheh

[tender flint]

This will all involve so much work, but its a paint the boat passion project. I was hoping this little 360 unit would last for the preshooting, but with my optical reader failing i may have to upgrade to the moddable version ahead of schedule.

How is the food options on the Super Skyrim mod selection?

Big item.. the meals thing. I want there to.. well thats a mod, lol.

[quartz shuttle]

I... don't actually know.

Not something i typically look at in mods

[tender flint]

I hear there is a survival mode? Or is that ESO?

[wet forge]

If we're being real, is roleplay even worth it by yourself?

[tender flint]

I would say it is a very real component of writing..

[quartz shuttle]

No, you have it for Skyrim

[wet forge]

Yes, but doing it recreationally seems kinda...sad

[quartz shuttle]

Why? It's telling a story. Is it sad to write stories?

Roleplaying is just using the medium of the game to write that story.

[wet forge]

The difference is, you'll be the only one seeing these stories. That's why having multiple players is far more enjoyable. There's actual dynamic and rules to keep your potential nonsense in check

[quartz shuttle]

Hard disagree on that one. But i'm just sad i guess.

[tender flint]

I appreciate that, one of the reasons i put the idea of a final product on the plate to give me a sense of gravity. Admittidly a goofy modded youtube machina videogamagraphy product, but nonetheless, that is why.

[quartz shuttle]

Not to say Roleplaying in a group isn't also fun, but dismissing it individually is... Well, missing out, frankly

[tender flint]

Have you ever read a book or whatched amovie and been so into the protagonist's perspective you felt it was happening to you?

Recognizing there is a difference between individual roleplaying and group live play is very valid, saying one is significantly more important might be a bit much. Particularly if the only person evaluating your use of your own time is you.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah

And i know more than a few others around here and from the old Forums who favour the single-player roleplaying. Some who would even argue that it's the 'Proper' way to play, though i wouldn't go that far.

[tender flint]

Without considering the numbers of people participating in each behavior i would say that writing or individually motivated roleplaying exists in a Venn diagram with "Live Group Play" that places the circle representing writing entirely within one corner of the circle representing Roleplaying proper. "Roleplaying" the term being used in so many fields from psycology to .. sex .. to .. well video games, i could go on.

Acting, customer service..

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah. Whiiich, goes into a wider discussion about gameplay design tat is better suited elsewhere

[tender flint]

So regarding Shapier..

That is on the equater all the way down below Cyrodill right?

[quartz shuttle]

Yes Katta?

Fun fact... We don't know where Nirn's equator is

[tender flint]

Ha!

[quartz shuttle]

Confession time. I ALWAYS set time aside for Sheema's dance. It's a wonder i didn't grow up to be a furry.

[tender flint]

You caffine addicts are all alike! Sigh.. i played that game so many times i got 505 points..ah..

[quartz shuttle]

Lol. I replay it every year. Between November and December, i replay the entire series

[tender flint]

I never got through two. The stupid elementals always glitch out and i have to start over. Idk why. Started a game of three but mainly just got to walk around the main city pyramid deal.

Seen four, and i tried to just start up five once, but at the time the rig couldnt handle the graphix.

I think it would be funny if there was a "magic Maze" room to practice spells in.. it would be a very interesting mod!

[quartz shuttle]

Hah, i have the routine down to a science now. Complete with the trining to max out my stats...

[tender flint]

I think about this kind of stuff because i absolutely need the story to have Aventus say they are there to study Restoration.

[quartz shuttle]

I think 'Training' in general needs a mecyhanical overhaul, but that's more a general chat conversation i think

[tender flint]

Cool - sorry new. We were talking about lore. So Elsewhere is all the way down below the main empire right?

Summerset is off to the west, morrowind the east, and Elswhyer to the south of the Empire, Skyrim to the north?

Geee.. let me go look up a picture, lol!

[quartz shuttle]

Lol

[tender flint]

Yeah, there we are..

[quartz shuttle]

A map helps, yes

[tender flint]

Ok, in my mind Summerset was up in bewtween Hammerfell and High Rock.

None of these are named Yokudan?

Oh, there it is off to the left.

[quartz shuttle]

Ok, brb. My dog just tried to turn off my PC, i think it's time to take her for her evening run

I'll be back shortly

[tender flint]

I am cooking and cleaning watching tv and having this conversation.

[quartz shuttle]

Alrighty, back

Ok, per that map. Bear in mind, we ONLY have an official map for Tamriel, and the island chain west of it that is the remnant of Yokuda. All other landmasses are speculative

[tender flint]

The Summerset Isles and Morrowind etc, basically the first map Canon, second within lore.

Ha! Canon, as in the picture.. lol!

Hmm.. honestly i dont think Xian would know much more. I guess my real question would be the distrubution of the sixteen and such. Are there any books in Skyrim that shed some light on that? Or a good resource with that information - ESO? Would of course proly be a place to get a familiarity with Khajiit and Elswhyr culture.. 🤔

[quartz shuttle]

Uuuuh... hold on

[tender flint]

The gag of having Shea basically just me with the knowledge of what i remember from playing the video game works well with him being an Argonian born outside of Blackmarsh.. weird loud boy.. grew up in Riften according to the story. I have always liked the idea that Mjoll and Shea were sophmores if you will when Aventus and Crist graduated from honor hall.. fyi, Innocence Lost in the story is a flashback sequence with Lydia when they first vist WindHelm. Since i had to look up how, i decided Shea simply has to be the one to solve Blood on the Ice.

[quartz shuttle]

Ok, well... There's a bunch of sources cited here. It would be easier to just link the article than every source

[tender flint]

With no one elses help.. Xian and Aventus are at the college at that point.. i think.. tis fun 😀

[quartz shuttle]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit#Morphology

[tender flint]

The whole Khajiit are Mer thing.. wild.

[quartz shuttle]

WERE Mer. It's iffy now

[tender flint]

Ahh.. thank you for your custom!

I want to play an Alfiq.. can i play an Alfiq?

[quartz shuttle]

At present, there is no official way to play an Alfiq

I beleive mods exist though... But i can't comment on how well they work

[tender flint]

A question for the mods 😀

[ocean brook]

Khaijiit are the kung fu catspaws of the Moonshadow Matriarch's Mandarin Demon Dance, now available in 16 different flavor identity modules in dimension nodes near you

[quartz shuttle]

That is... Not wrong.

[ocean brook]

all proceeds from sales go to the Save Our Twilights Foundation

[pastel sorrel]

@tender flint @quartz shuttle Were maybe mer and maybe still are*

It's unclear what's going on with them.

[tender flint]

Safe Travels Long Strider, the fact they say that now that ive started playing Wildfire Xian is a constant amusement.

[quartz shuttle]

Fair. The only real origin we have for them indicates they were Mer, however, and they certianly seem to associate their origin with having once been Aldmer

[tender flint]

Which is kind of key with the whole Mer v Man dicotomy. Now the Argonians were.. Men changed to lizards tho?

[quartz shuttle]

No. We're not entirely sure, but most likely...

[ocean brook]

the Argonians are The Guys Who Weren't Invited 😛

[quartz shuttle]

Lizards altered by the Hist to mimic Men and Mer

[pastel sorrel]

Not true, that's the Altmer-specific narrative. We've had a claim of non-merish descent from Khajiit too.

[tender flint]

Waita wait a minute.. and make babies or no? Men and Mer can make children but it will be one or the other.. So Argonians are included in that or no?

[pastel sorrel]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Notes_on_Racial_Phylogeny

[quartz shuttle]

I've never seen it, but i have missed some things, so it's entirely possible

[tender flint]

Restoration is a perfectly valid form of magic. Restor..oration! Tee hee

Da da da dadada..

[quartz shuttle]

I mean.. the Spell Schools are entirely artificial anyway soooo...

[pastel sorrel]

Dialogue from one in Elsweyr decrying the Altmeri narrative about them, Father of The Niben possibly talking about early Khajiit assuming it's to be taken as a non-fictional tale, and apparently Shadowkey just straight up says it. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Shadowkey:Races

This agile cat race was native to Tamriel long before the arrival of the humans and elves. The Khajiit Cat Quick advantage allows them to avoid blows which would otherwise hit.

[quartz shuttle]

Fair enough

[pastel sorrel]

But it still raises as many questions regarding the Lunar Lattice and how the Ohmes tie in and whatnot

[split pond]

Magic

[quartz shuttle]

Again though, i give Father of the Niben about as much credibility as i do toilet paper... Plus, the split would have had to have been during the Dawn, BEFORE opal's voyages, so of course they'd be there when he explored Tamriel

[tender flint]

Well.. if they were part of the original formation of the elves then they would have predated men and the elves we know today. The eldest of the races in a sense. Their creation has never changed like the chimmer because they were made with change already.

Yet that would still make them moire mer than man.

[pastel sorrel]

Of note is the Dwemer were also long established before the Chimer showed up, whom were possibly one of the earliest Aldmeri exoduses

Plus Atmora, more properly Altmora, which was already ruled by mer hella early.

[tender flint]

And also Argonians are just weird lizasrd people, speaking of the Flying Argonians! Ima find that bit..

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah... The division of the Merish races likely happened during the Dawn, which... makes everything rather confusing.

[split pond]

Don't Bretons have mer and man blood?

[quartz shuttle]

Yes.

[pastel sorrel]

Mainly mannish

they've barely had mer blood for a while, it's mainly just heritage.

[quartz shuttle]

Not that there's ultimately a whole lot of difference

[split pond]

Whatever the Khajiit were before, they weren't man or mer by the time Azurah was done with them.

[ocean brook]

but they were cute

🙂

[tender flint]

Mrmph nothing on these... Sarpa.. well nothing not already mentioned today anyway..

Alfiq is my word of the day tho.. they have skins, i can mod one into the story with relative ease then!

[quartz shuttle]

There is nothing beyond a single reference to the Sarpa.

Based on some mostly out of game information, though, the Argonians are as diverse as the Khajiit. It's only the Saxhleel who tend to leave Blackmarsh though

[tender flint]

Makes me wonder about stuff.. the Lizard people theory would conjuct with my bird question, from mythical feathered serpent to the described "flying squirrel" Sarpa.. lizards are closer in type to birds.. reading the part about where they came from.

... https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ancestor_Lizard that is a telling name..

[split pond]

As strong as a Nord, as magically gifted as a Breton or Altmer. If the Khajiit weren't mostly interested in eating moon sugar, drinking skooma, and talking in third person, they'd be a force to be reckoned with.

[tender flint]

Yep natives to Black Marsh.. oh right, Argonians do have feathers.. OOhhh.. what if Snow Demons were flying Argonian Bird Type people with Mountinous Hist Trees... Actually really look like the Elder and Gilder Gleams..

[quartz shuttle]

Nah, i prefer my pet theory that the Kamal are Falmer

[tender flint]

Would you like me to read that in a loud Nord voice?

[quartz shuttle]

Driven east and radicalised by the genocide of their people in Tamriel

[split pond]

Sure.

[tender flint]

Uh.. i have a patreon, hit me on Twitter 🙂

[wet forge]

What's the history of the Mer? There's many branching species, but was there ever a root elf species?

[tender flint]

The Aedra. They were born immortal then they died.. thusly the Deadra, then the Mer.

The Mer were the soul shards of the Deadra.. in one sense.

[quartz shuttle]

Not the Aedra, the Ehlnofey

[tender flint]

Well depending on who you ask amongst them.

[quartz shuttle]

There was a class of Spirits during the Dawn called the Ehlnofey. They formed the most numerous of those that contributed to the creation of Mundus, and all living things descend from them.

[tender flint]

Men a "natural phenomena" but the Mer an echo of the Elnofey.. correct?

[quartz shuttle]

Somehow (the explanations of how differ across various mythologies) the Ehlnofey ultimately polarized into 2 primary groups. The Old Ehnofey, and the Wandering Ehlnofey.

The Old Ehnofey sided with Auriel during the Dawn War (also known as the War of Manifest Metaphores) while at least some of the Wandering Ehlnofey sided with Lorkhan. The Old Ehlnofey became the Aldmer, the progenitors of all Elves, while hte Wanderers who sided with Lorkhan became the precursors to Men (and Giants)

[tender flint]

I like the version where they say that Men were formed in an image that the Mer were then an emanation of.

[quartz shuttle]

At some point the Aldmeri fractured, driven by ideological differences, and eventually became all the various races of Elves.

Based on recurring themes across mythologies, both are sort of true

Mer are a natural 'evolution' of Ehlnofey spirits. Men, on the other hand, were Ehlnofey spirits directly shaped by Lorkhan and Kyne.

[tender flint]

The implication of the emanation implies the yearning for the previous state, that seems lacking in the race of Men..

[quartz shuttle]

Not ALL mer yearn to return to that state though

The Dunmer, for instance, embrace their limitations as a trial to overcome, to become BETTER than they were

[tender flint]

Indeed! I have a curiously focused vein of data. Mainly the stuff my mains would have run accross. I spend allot of time reading through the books, and the part where allot is up for debate is phenomenal especially the way Lorhkan is Nirn, but in an Aedra/Deadra sense.. vaugeries thereof.

[quartz shuttle]

It's worth noting of course that the overwhelming majority of Tamriel's inhabitants don't give a rats ass about any of this

[tender flint]

Is Lorhkan become Nirn become Alduin?? Because as we all know Akatosh aint Alduin.. hehe

[quartz shuttle]

Just living is more importtant

We... aren;t entirely sure what Alduin is..

[tender flint]

Wildfire does, and Aventus needs to know how to fulfill his destiny.

Wildfire is a "and they will bow to me." Deadra "worshipper"

Reveal to me the secret of your Razor! She roarsinto the wind! 🤠

I have this whole scequence in mind where she casts guardian circle before summoning the dremora merchant.. hehe

Ward first cast second.

Speaking of things that people dont give a rats ass about, skeever's?? I decided that Aventus just pays the entry fee for Riften. Shea splits the party at the first opportunity runs to Riften gets to the shakedown line, and we skip to Sshar hiring the cart back home. Cut to Meeting Gerdie.

No time is spent in Riverwood until the Dragonstone quest.

[quartz shuttle]

Best decision ever

It always annoys me when people talk about Skyrim forcing it's story on you, rather than the 'freedoom' of Oblivion. Skyrim LITERALLY tells you to go in the opposite direction of the main quest

[tender flint]

Then Aventus and Wildfire make pals with the Bosmer as part of the Golden Claw deal then.

My original Sshar playthrough she refused weapons, used only a shield and ran directly to Falkrath.. for some reason 🙄

I do not know how i found this conscientious little character.