#elder-scrolls-lore

1 messages · Page 41 of 1

pastel sorrel
#

Unless Akatosh manages to hold on rather than Auriel. Then there shouldn't be any need.

frigid willow
#

Though it's worth noting that Sovengard doesn't seem to entirely be made up of warriors.

I don't necessarily think the Greybeards are pacifists but they don't seem to seek conflict as part of the way of the voice. Jurgen's presence in Sovengard suggests that you don't necessarily need to be devoted to conquest to get in.

pastel sorrel
#

It's less devotion to conquest and more just dying in honorable battle in general, or so it's believed

#

It just so happens conquest is a fastlane to achieving that

frigid willow
#

That might explain why we don't see any greybeards.

#

They live in extreme isolation, that lowers the chances of dying in battle honorable or otherwise.

obtuse summit
#

maybe they belong to kyne's afterlife?

pastel sorrel
#

It might not even necessarily be dying, but at least winning a glorious battle

#

Jurgen ostensibly didn't die in battle, but his earlier battle (or rather endurance test) with the 17 Tongues probably got him that spot in Sovngarde all by itself.

frigid willow
#

Jurgen invented the way of the voice and he's in sovengard. I feel like if Kyne had claim over the beards she would have claim over him too.

pastel sorrel
#

Kyne is a warrior goddess too, she probably sends them to Sovngarde herself.

#

she's a psychopomp for the Khajiit, makes sense she'd be for the Nords too.

frigid willow
#

That's entirely possible.

pastel sorrel
#

She's even credited with breathing them out to Nirn at the Throat of The World

frigid willow
#

Keep the spirits that don't qualify for sovengard in her realm

obtuse summit
#

but there's no statue of kyne as warrior-goddess. wait, is there any statue of kyne at all?

frigid willow
#

No but it is outright stated the nords worship her as one.

pastel sorrel
#

Of Nordic Kyne specifically? You're looking for totems, not statues.

frigid willow
#

I believe she's also Shor's wife.

pastel sorrel
#

She's his war-wife and second in command in the pantheon.

#

Dibella his bed-wife, i forget which role Mara had but she's the third wife

#

but either way, if you're looking for the traditional depiction of Kyne, it's the hawk totem you see in the barrows in TES5

obtuse summit
#

oh so many statues in skyrim is based on their imperial version eh.

pastel sorrel
#

And her more full-body depiction in the engravings.

SR-concept-6877525709.png
pastel sorrel
#

Talos especially is a very modern depiction, though he is also a modern god.

obtuse summit
#

seems like the sorcereress from masters of universe 🤣

frigid willow
#

Yeah the empire has strong ties to modern day skyrim so it makes sense.

Talos doesn't have a straightforward ancient nordic equivalent so his statue is presumably based on Tiber.

pastel sorrel
#

see also her amulet in TES5

SR-item-The_Gauldur_Amulet.png
frigid willow
#

What is Kynareth's altar supposed to be?

obtuse summit
#

wings?

#

if kyne is shor's wife, so what is morihaus? son of shor?

pastel sorrel
#

She's the Hawk.

#

Kynareth meanwhile has statues. See these for a couple examples.

ON-statue-Kynareth.png BL-misc-Kynareth.png
pastel sorrel
frigid willow
#

Still associated with birds but more tame kinds at least in these two pictures.

pastel sorrel
#

Shor's wives are also Akatosh's.

frigid willow
#

Shor ish real und he eint akatosh

pastel sorrel
#

The two are twin brothers at a very metaphysical level, both just two sides of the same coin that's married to the three Hearth Goddesses

frigid willow
#

Sorry that seemed funny.

pastel sorrel
#

Morihaus's father could be either of them

#

Possibly Akatosh as per the wings (though that's also Kynareth), possibly Lorkhan for being a strange mutant.

frigid willow
#

Or both
I mean they're deities, who says they have to follow the same biological rules as a mortal

pastel sorrel
#

Could even be he has no father, and was simply birthed directly by Kynareth. He could be to her as dragons are to Akatosh.

frigid willow
#

I very much doubt any God but Talos has/had DNA to transfer.

pastel sorrel
#

Could also be more metaphorical and he has no direct relation even to Kynareth

#

Familial terms for the gods are said to be more metaphorical than not.

#

Clearly M'aiq is the father though.

frigid willow
#

Right.
Its not like Akatosh laid a clutch of eggs and dragons were born. Dragons are born full grown and have no inherent concept of mortality.

But they are still his children by virtue of being his creations.

obtuse summit
#

like son of azura, maybe it's not mean literally?

frigid willow
#

It gets tricky with Daedra. They're more solid than Aedra/Divines/we.

Theoretically Azura could actually give birth if she wanted to.

Daedra can have fully mortal offspring if the accords of madness are to be trusted, Malacath sired a mortal.

#

But it could also be that her son is just a creation she holds in high enough regard to use familial terms with.

#

Though if I'm being honest I don't know much about this son of azura

#

Another thing to consider is Umbra.

Umbra is essentially a fragment of Clavicus Vile that attained its own form of sentience and agency.

Umbra could be considered a child of clavicus vile.

pastel sorrel
#

the aedra aren't any less solid than the daedra, and the Mundus is home turf for them

#

Like i said before, their power and natures are in the workings of the Mundus. Arguably all mortals are their children to some extent.

#

We're all made of the same planet they formed out of themselves.

frigid willow
#

I don't see Julianos getting me drunk and selling me a staff.

pastel sorrel
#

Why would you?

obtuse summit
#

Alandro Sul (or Alandro-Sul) was the shield-companion of Nerevar during the War of the First Council. It is said he is the immortal son of Azura. 🤔

frigid willow
#

I said solid because I couldn't think of a better way to put it.

pastel sorrel
#

Nerevar was said to be a scion of Boethiah, IIRC.

#

i might be misremembering a combination of both Alandro-Sul and Fa-Nuit-Hen though

#

since i know Fa-Nuit-Hen says "scion of Boethiah" explicitly about himself

frigid willow
#

But like Akatosh had to play 3D chess in order to manifest a physical form for like five minutes.

Meanwhile Sanguine is chilling at the bar.

pastel sorrel
#

And Lorkhan (for that is what they called Shor in Resdayn) said: "I do not wreak vengeance on the Dwarves for the reasons that the Tribunal might believe I do. Nevertheless, it is true that they will die by my hand, and any whoever should side with them. This Nerevar is the son of Boethiah, one of the strongest Padomaics. He is a hero to his people despite his Tribunal, and he shall muster enough that this battle will be harder going still. We will need more than what we have."

#

Though of course, how literal (or even truthful) it is is up in the air.

obtuse summit
#

i guess battle of red mountain is the most epic moment in tamriel history.

frigid willow
#

Its interesting that Lorkhan seems to be more open to trafficking with daedra but then he basically is one the way the elves tell it.

pastel sorrel
frigid willow
#

Sounds like a cluster puck.

pastel sorrel
obtuse summit
#

honestly, whom against whom, i am bit confused.

#

dwemer vs chimer vs nord ( and probably orc ?)

pastel sorrel
obtuse summit
#

ah yes chimer, its not changed yet.

frigid willow
#

I suppose to the aldmeri it's inconceivable that their ancestors would have willingly given up even a fraction of their power to fund a flawed creation.
So Shorkahn must be a trickster.

pastel sorrel
#

Lorkhan is the devil to them. He's everything that went wrong.

#

They don't even venerate all their ancestors as aedra anyway, there's more outside of even their pantheon

obtuse summit
#

and why yokudan blame lorkhan ( sep ) too lol

frigid willow
#

I thought their narrative was that he tricked the aedra out of their power to create mundus.

pastel sorrel
#

But also they kinda put the cut-off point at Auriel's lot, so Lorkhan's lot technically falls outside of that. But if they went up higher, he'd be an aedroth too.

EDIT: But also they accept Stendarr as an ancestor despite being the apologist of man and fighting alongside Shor as Stuhn, sooooo

pastel sorrel
#

Either way, Lorkhan's position as not-an-aedroth to the Aldmeri pantheon is more political than internally consistent

frigid willow
#

How does one even worship Lorkhan ?

obtuse summit
#

but julianos and dibella not exist on mer pantheon 😄

#

don't know why 🤔

#

elves don't like art and math ?

pastel sorrel
#

One can draw a parallel with the Abrahamic faiths; even The Devil was once an angel, after all.

frigid willow
#

Well tbh the aldmeri seem like a race of prudes so dibella makes sense.

pastel sorrel
#

At least practically speaking. Y'ffre is their muse, Magnus is their teacher.

obtuse summit
#

ah that's fair 🤔

pastel sorrel
#

As i said, the Altmeri pantheon doesn't actually include everyone. It's only whom they consider to be ancestors, and the more praxic they are the more ancestor-y they become.

#

The whole ancestor thing started out with worshipping their social betters to begin with, it's not actually a theological thing originally.

#

Hence, they would never accept Lorkhan as an aedroth, despite being one of the most aedric of them all for being such an integral part of the Mundus's creation and function.

obtuse summit
#

yeah, most altmeri deities used to be mortal too.

timber bough
#

What's the status of the Kingdom of Morrowind (as in, the government)? Was it wholly supplanted by the Great Houses/abolished as a remnant of the Empire's occupation, or is it still around?

pastel sorrel
timber bough
#

Thought the same

pastel sorrel
#

From what is said, it sounds like it's probably back to the Great Houses

timber bough
#

Me and a few friends had a discussion on what Morrowind's government looks like by the time of Skyrim, and its closest real world approximation might be something like an aristocratic republic with the Great Houses being an effective oligarchy

#

Think along the lines of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but remove the King and make its parliament much, much smaller

sharp lantern
# timber bough What's the status of the Kingdom of Morrowind (as in, the government)? Was it wh...

There's no mention of it being abolished... But it's pretty safe to assume that it is. The Redoran rose in power while the Hlaalu declined, and the Redoran are pretty anti-Empire. I find it highly unlikely that Morrowind, whose capital is in Redoran territory, whose politics are dominated by the Redoran, and whose sole pro-Empire house got kicked from the Grand Council, would keep an Imperial figurehead around following its independence.

timber bough
#

Yeah

#

I wonder what became of Helseth, he was supposed to be some kind of political mastermind, but there doesnt seem to be any mention of him in content published after Morrowind

floral light
#

Best case scenerio his mom was able to use her popularity to save his butt and he died in exile in Cyrodil,

quartz shuttle
#

I like to imagine he was in Vivec, inspecting the Ingenium, when Sul sabotaged it

#

Kinda hard to Politic your way out of a Meteor impact

uncut hatch
young nexus
#

Does anyone have an idea of the time period that Elder Scrolls 6 is set in? Or speculation?

robust lintel
#

Forward.

frigid willow
#

After Skyrim probably.
That's as much as we actually know.

zinc wigeon
#

What if we play as tiber septim lol

frigid willow
#

I will spend hours leaping to my death at level 1

zinc wigeon
#

Anyways fun fact you can jump off the temple balcony and survive in the vale

dusky scaffold
#

Which Vale?

scenic field
#

What’s the max lifespan for an elfConfusedPeek

zinc wigeon
dusky scaffold
dusky scaffold
sand flume
#

300 would be very old for an elf, anything above 350-400 would likely need magic to live longer

frigid willow
#

Note that this isn't necessarily true of all elves. Orcs for example have average lifespans comparable to a Human's because of a race wide curse.

sand flume
#

true true

frigid willow
#

Though orcs typically seek out their own deaths as they get elderly so I'm not totally sure if 60 is a hard maximum or if they could potentially live to be 80ish if they don't get killed in battle.

#

Also I think it's said that high elves have a natural lifespan of a thousand years but that could be propaganda.

zinc wigeon
sand flume
#

for sure

#

teldryn sero is actually an example of such an elf

dusky scaffold
#

Confused Neloth noises

sand flume
#

neloth doesnt count

#

hes a master wizard

dusky scaffold
#

he's still "an elf who lived through both the oblivion crisis and skyrim"

obtuse summit
#

Confused Divath Fyr

#

that guy have been live from nerevar era lol

sand flume
#

yep, born a chimer

zinc wigeon
#

Nani

sand flume
#

thats with magic

#

no mortal could naturally live that long

zinc wigeon
#

Snow elves?

sand flume
#

its highly unlikely gelebor is as old as he is without either his own magic or auriels support

#

and auriels support is the most likely case

#

Who are the spectral Prelates? "They're ghosts of the snow elf priests that tended the wayshrines before being slaughtered by the Betrayed. Through the grace of Auri-El they were restored to their spectral form to enable them to continue their duties."

#

if auriel is behind the spectral prelates staying behind, its not far fetched at all for auriel to be keeping gelebor alive

sleek grove
#

Gelebor still has faith so it's possible

zinc wigeon
#

He just uses the shrine daily

uncut hatch
#

you can't die of old age if you keep curing yourself of rockjoint

zinc wigeon
#

The funny thing is you can't die of just age

#

It's desies that kill you

dusky scaffold
#

any source for that?

frigid willow
#

For what?

quartz shuttle
#

Auriel doesn't keep the Prelates around for their faith, its for their function

frigid willow
#

No but how useful is the faith of a ghost?

sleek grove
#

I'm surprised Gelebor still believes, he's the potential last of his former kind now and thinks the Betrayed can still find Auriel

frigid willow
#

He's got hope.

sleek grove
#

Though he does say there could be more Snow Elves out there remotely

frigid willow
#

Yeah that seemed like Bethesda leaving open the possibility of more snow elf content. I don't know how probable it is really.

quartz shuttle
#

Gelebor doesn't believe. He KNOWS

#

Faith doesn't exist in a world where you can literally commune with your gods

#

That's part of what drove Vrythur's fall

sleek grove
#

The Arch-Curate thinks Auriel turned his back on him

frigid willow
#

Its less faith that Auri-El exists and more faith that he's worth worshipping.

sleek grove
#

Gelebor thinks the Betrayed corrupted him (the Arch-Curate)

quartz shuttle
#

Exactly. He could speak with his god, ans then suddenly Auriel stops talking to him when he needs it the most?

#

Vrythur's fall isn't a lack of faith, its a reaction to what he sees as a betrayal

sleek grove
#

Did he write the Tyranny of the Sun before or after he was corrupted?

quartz shuttle
#

Aftrr

#

But time being what it is... also before

sleek grove
#

It's a shame the Betrayed were the ones to almost wipe out the remaining Snow Elves in the Forgotten Vale

#

Though I don't think we have a timeline when exactly it happened?

#

It was certainly after the Dwemer made the deal ofc

quartz shuttle
#

After the Red Moment, at least.

#

Its probably relatively recent, 3rd or 4th era

#

The Falmer need time to expand, take over Dwemer ruins, establish themselves, reach population pressures, expand again, and eventually break into the Forgotten Vale

zinc wigeon
#

How long have the dwemer been gone?

quartz shuttle
#

1e720ish i think?

#

About 3000 years

frigid willow
#

That's quite awhile.

zinc wigeon
#

Damn

#

And do we know why they died out?

quartz shuttle
#

1e700

#

Nope. They disappeares in the middle of a battle

zinc wigeon
#

I wonder if they acheived their goal

quartz shuttle
#

The main story is that Kagrenac jsedthe tools on the Heart of Lorkhan, and in an instant the Dwemer vanished

frigid willow
#

There's a few explanations ranging from being kidnapped by Azura to being used as a fuel source for the numedian but we really don't know what happened to them.

We can't even verify that they're actually dead.

zinc wigeon
#

Also what did the dwemer look like?
Altmer?
Dunmer?

quartz shuttle
#

Bronzeish skin, with curly beards

#

Imagine Mesopotamian Elves

frigid willow
#

I always imagined them as being of a color similar to Dwarven metal.

#

But that might just be because all images of dwemer are made of that material.

quartz shuttle
#

A lot of fan art makes them blue-grey, like the Dunmer

#

Mostly because if yoh remove the ghost filter from them in Morrowind they look like pale Dunmer. Buuuut, they're also dead, so that may not be accurate

frigid willow
#

They might also have just been reused dunmer assets to save time.

zinc wigeon
#

Probably

#

Why create a whole new model for a very small amount of rarely seen npcs

quartz shuttle
#

Well, Morrwind has a specific sprite for Dwemer Spectres

#

But, again. Very ckearly dead

dusky scaffold
#

model
morrowind doesn't use sprites any more

quartz shuttle
#

True, my bad

#

My age showing

frigid willow
#

They could have been cast forward in time like alduin

quartz shuttle
#

I personally orefer the Golden Skin explanation

dusky scaffold
#

I'm highly convinced of "we do not know"

quartz shuttle
#

True

sleek grove
zinc wigeon
#

Ah

sleek grove
#

There was Dwarven Spectres also in ESO in the Morrowind Chapter in one unmarked ruin, but they aren't a Dwemer race afaik because they are only armoured enemies

#

Well they were ghosts in Dwemer gear in a ruin anyway

frigid willow
#

No man escapes the manhunters!

brisk perch
#

Hmm, I'm trying to figure out what trade ship/s that Ri'saad saved Ma'dran from a life of servitude.

sharp lantern
#

In regards to the Dwemer skin color, Yagrum is the sole Dwemer we actually encounter, and his skin is kind of similar to the skin of the Bosmer.

brave shoal
#

despite my love for grey/blue skin for fantasy race, i would imagine dwemer (if i go with semi/more realistic way) skin tone to be light thank to basically living underground

pastel sorrel
sharp lantern
#

Fair point

dusky scaffold
sleek grove
#

True, yeah

pastel sorrel
#

It also depends if they even have a specific dwemer race code-wise if they're only ever visible with full armor on

#

they could just be dunmer under the hood, it doesn't matter when you can't see them.

sleek grove
uncut hatch
#

no

quartz shuttle
#

Finally, someone scaled a Nords head to the size of their brain

uncut hatch
#

nooooooooooo

#

I'm gonna make that head my profile picture

quartz shuttle
#

How many Nords does it take to start a fire?

#

I'll let you know when they invent it.

robust lintel
#

It's a good thing AngryNord is not here to see this.

quartz shuttle
#

That's just a Nord

pastel sorrel
sleek grove
#

The Dwemer were only pretending to be Mer thinkSchick

uncut hatch
#

i got nitro just so i could have the dwemer head cause i don't want to get rid of the trolly in a park profile picture 😔

#

anyways, im pink now

obtuse summit
#

is there race something like half-daedra half mortal? kinda tiefling race of elder scroll

signal raptor
pastel sorrel
#

There's supposed half-mortal children of some, but their nature isn't entirely confirmed or known

#

Fa-Nuit-Hen, for instance

obtuse summit
#

well demi-prince exist, why normal dremora cannot have child with mortal?

pastel sorrel
#

You're assuming they can have children, let alone with mortals.

obtuse summit
#

at least, there's mortal with the blood of daedra?

pastel sorrel
#

Supposedly, none of them confirmed.

#

Immortals with the blood of mortals seems to be more the course of things.

obtuse summit
#

we need horned men

pastel sorrel
uncut hatch
pastel sorrel
#

I already linked that.

uncut hatch
#

Only similar one there is as of now

obtuse summit
#

demi-prince is child of daedra prince.

#

not just regular dremora in fargrave.

pastel sorrel
#

They're the only ones we have.

uncut hatch
#

Demiprinces can come from daedric lords though too

obtuse summit
#

it could be possible in the future? 🤔

pastel sorrel
#

How would we be able to know that

obtuse summit
#

at least, more races for elder scrolls 🙂

uncut hatch
#

It’s unknown how or why anyone would want a demiprince tbh

pastel sorrel
#

Daedra don't typically do the whole "children" thing, they reform directly

obtuse summit
#

but they did bleed right?

#

I mean breton technically half-elf even they're not look like elf at all 🙂

uncut hatch
#

Daedra don’t have the same biology as a mortal

pastel sorrel
#

I'm not sure how blood's got to do with it, and bretons are mortal races borne of mortal races

gaunt bear
uncut hatch
#

Biology in tes is whacky

pastel sorrel
#

Daedra (or at least some) do bleed and have some measure of internal biology (hearts, etc.)

obtuse summit
#

its possible create children from experiment, cloning is a thing tho.

uncut hatch
#

I feel like instead of blood daedra have chaotic Creatia of some kind

pastel sorrel
#

but that doesn't quite extend to also bearing children

uncut hatch
#

Oopsy meant for spoiler tag

obtuse summit
#

its been 5 years lol

pastel sorrel
#

longer than that

uncut hatch
obtuse summit
#

i don't think it's consider spoiler anymore.

pastel sorrel
#

ESO fully launched back in 2014

obtuse summit
#

my sense of time is dull 🙂

uncut hatch
pastel sorrel
#

i forget how long that went

obtuse summit
#

how many years i replay skyrim!

uncut hatch
#

My maths is unstoppable

uncut hatch
pastel sorrel
#

okay yeah it was 2014

#

and then 2015 was Tamriel Unlimited

obtuse summit
#

oh c'mon, who don't want spouse like dark seducer or golden saint 👀

pastel sorrel
#

but yeah, ancient spoilers, no point hiding them

#

especially in the lore channel of all places

uncut hatch
#

My daedra addiction nearly vanished and here I am reliving them again

obtuse summit
#

i want to pet skamp.

uncut hatch
obtuse summit
#

why no daedra pets in creation.

uncut hatch
obtuse summit
#

well there's daedra horse, i can deal with that.

pastel sorrel
#

They're less pets and more servants

#

scamps are sapient beings, bear in mind.

uncut hatch
obtuse summit
#

mansion full of scamp servants.

#

I heard all conjured weapons are daedra too.

uncut hatch
#

Scamp: Be our guest! Be our guest! Put our service to the test

uncut hatch
sleek grove
#

Off-topic but there was a neat Dwarven Sphere pet for subbing for 6months within 2014-2015 to ESO. (Gone when they removed the required sub.) I'll never get that on my Dwarf toon because I started playing on PC in 2017 pain A Spider will do tho of which I have many

uncut hatch
#

I want those massive nix-oxes or giant dwemer spiders as a mount

#

For my toon

sleek grove
#

I have all the Dwemer Spider mounts but the one that was locked behind the Radiant Apex tier of that Crown Crate

#

I think it was a Ebony Spider mount or something

uncut hatch
#

I was really tempted to buy that once but it’s kinda dumb

#

The mounts are pretty dumb

brave shoal
#

i want the dwarven sphere so badly on my argonian dwemer savant, at least the ebony robot snake pet thingy i got is cool (favourite crate reward i got while leveling yet)

robust lintel
#

When they say "the last dragonborn" just what does that mean in reference to time. Like last dragonborn before the next kalpa? Is something adding up to a drastic change of the world of nirn in years to come? I mean there's been dragonborn before you, why should you be the last one then?

ocean brook
#

well, what's the purpose of the Dragonborn?

uncut hatch
#

being cool

ocean brook
#

hah

#

besides that 🙂

uncut hatch
#

naturally accruing phenomenon

ocean brook
#

I lean more toward "stop Alduin from ending the kapla"

#

and before that, "keep Oblivion out of the Mundus via the Dragonfires"

quartz shuttle
#

The Dragonborn exist, primarily, to stop Alduin from turning the Kalpa. With Alduin defeated, their purpose is fulfilled.

#

Hence, no more Dragonborn

zinc wigeon
#

What if the dragonborn pulls a tiber septim

ocean brook
#

in what sense?

uncut hatch
#

what happened in the second era where the dragon fires weren't lit?

#

why no dragonborns?

#

retcons, thats why

#

maybe in the first era too

#

the whole "akatosh gave alessia the amulet of kings" thing is a lie anyways

#

tiber literally stopped the ongoing oblivion crisis of the second era @-@

fringe fern
#

I find it interesting that the more modern games have the main character being "claimed" by a Daedric Prince as a way to explain their absence. Morrowind, the Nerevarine is claimed by Hircine. Oblivion, Sheogorath, and Skyrim has you claimed by Hermaeus Mora.

uncut hatch
#

actually the nerevarine went to akavir (that sounded like a nerd comment but i was being more light hearted sorry)

fringe fern
#

Ah, true

#

Though I have to wonder why he didn't return after the Red Year.

#

Or he did, and he's just been trying to keep a low profile and help as many people as he can

#

I did see a follower mod for Skyrim that features him though, pretty cool

uncut hatch
#

what if the nerevarine is the reason redoran stopped the Saxhleel?

#

wait im not good at argonian lore

#

An-Xileel?

#

god, and I read half the novel too...

timber bough
#

don't need the nerevarine to have stopped them, and if he did it would be widely known

gaunt bear
# fringe fern Or he did, and he's just been trying to keep a low profile and help as many peop...

I’m going to say that one, because (in my Dragon Age : The Lost Scrolls fanfiction) when he reveals himself at the Winter Palace during Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts, and reveals that he aided the Hero of Ferelden during the Fifth Blight, he gets ‘taken in’ by the Inquisition, which draws the Dunmer to the Inquisition, and provokes a hostile response from the Aldmeri Dominion, which I’ve got planned as ‘doomed to fail due to overconfidence’.

uncut hatch
#

he used an elder scroll to hide himself from history

timber bough
#

c0da makes it canon

uncut hatch
#

ayyyy

fringe fern
#

Granted the people who might have known the Nerevarine during the events of Morrowind are all very old elves by now.

timber bough
#

most are dead, i think

fringe fern
#

Or died when Red Mountain erupted

uncut hatch
#

and dead due to krakatoa event/argonians

timber bough
#

the ones who live are predominately powerful mages like the telvanni, and even of them we only know for sure that neloth lives

fringe fern
#

Yeah Neloth would be the only one who might remember him

#

I think that "Red Year volume 2" mentions an unnamed Dunmer helping the refugees. I like to think that was the Nerevarine.

uncut hatch
#

see, he used magic to hide himself

fringe fern
#

"It was actually a directive that came from the House Redoran councilor that was living in Mournhold at the time. I can't remember his name, but he took charge of the situation and sent soldiers, supplies, and able-bodied Dunmer to the outlying settlements that had been hit the hardest."

uncut hatch
fringe fern
#

So I guess House Redoran is the canon Great House he would have joined.

uncut hatch
#

redoran best house

fringe fern
#

(if it is referencing him, that is)

timber bough
#

yeah but redoran sucks, telvanni all the way

uncut hatch
#

telvanni are hispters who put rugs on the walls

timber bough
#

hipsters with mushroom houses

fringe fern
#

Also explains how House Redoran got into Solstheim so fast. You help build Raven Rock in Bloodmoon.

timber bough
#

well, keep in mind thats probably because blacklight (the redoran capital) is right south to solstheim

uncut hatch
#

did mournhold get murdered by umbriel...?

#

it got murdered by argonians but then umbriel murdered a third of the argonians too

#

then moved past mournhold

timber bough
#

tbh i kind of struggle with umbriel lore

fringe fern
#

I've never even heard of Umbriel

uncut hatch
#

wait nvm, mournhold was in somewhat safe distance

uncut hatch
fringe fern
#

Ahhhh. That explains it.

uncut hatch
#

it killed a lot of argonians and nearly destroyed the imperial city

fringe fern
#

I never read the novels.

uncut hatch
#

i read half of the first novel and it's haunted me ever since

timber bough
#

that bad?

fringe fern
#

Still, I like the idea of the Nerevarine being the one to help organize relief efforts.

#

whenever there's plot holes or handwaving involved I just blame Todd and move on lol

robust lintel
uncut hatch
timber bough
#

ouch

#

i'm prolly gonna have to read the books for my project since it deals with eastern lore

fringe fern
uncut hatch
#

i should try to read the books again tbh

robust lintel
#

But thats my point. Did we actually defeat Alduin once and for all? Because I highly doubt it, just more borrowed time

fringe fern
#

welp I tried to spoiler tag that, don't know why it's not working. Oh well.

uncut hatch
#

you gotta double it

timber bough
uncut hatch
#

|| like that

fringe fern
#

thank you lol

gaunt bear
quartz shuttle
#

NOT being Dragonborn, they had to do something different, and sent Alduin forward in time instead

timber bough
#

what the 3 did was more or less a cheat

#

it was an inherently temporary measure, basically just relocating the problem (Alduin) for others to deal with eventually

#

that other one turned out to be the LDB

uncut hatch
#

is alduin even a dragon?

#

or do people assume hes a dragon

#

that boy ain't right

sand flume
#

what

#

pretty sure alduin is a dragon

#

akatosh is also a dragon

versed mango
#

Is Peryite a dragon?

sand flume
#

nah hes a skeever

robust lintel
sand flume
#

youre the last dragonborn because the prophecy you fulfil states that youre the last dragonborn

#

anything else is extra

robust lintel
#

Ok so no answer then, I accept that

robust lintel
gaunt bear
robust lintel
#

Yes, that was the point

signal raptor
#

Alright folks. Let's keep things civil and within the #rules please.

uncut hatch
#

neh?

#

if Akatosh is a dragon... can I absorb his soul as dragonborn...

#

did martin eat akatosh's soul?

brisk perch
#

I'm guessing the other way around, you yourself would not likely be able to absorb Akatosh, but maybe return to being one with Akatosh, like a water droplet being returned to the ocean

uncut hatch
#

ahh... daedra logic...

#

return to the waters

sand flume
#

though you would need to find a way to kill him, meaning putting an end to all time everywhere

#

its possible the only reason you dont absorb alduin's soul is because akatosh absorbs it

sand flume
quartz shuttle
sand flume
#

what about the two dragonborns in sovngarde?

#

they werent dragonborn emperors and alduin wouldnt have been around whilst they were alive

uncut hatch
#

im just saying a bunch of dumb questions cause Tes be like that. I like to see possibilities and what ifs

quartz shuttle
#

Or at least one of them

sand flume
#

👀

#

speculation or is this actually stated, out of curiosity

#

"Hail, Dragonborn. That honor is also mine - to our shared birthright you'll bring new glory!"
this one does call it his birthright

quartz shuttle
#

The tracking of Dragonborn Emperors, statements by both teh Dragonborn in Sovengarde, and Mannimarco, and out of universe statements from Todd Howard indicate that, yes, it is stated

#

The only issue is why there aren't Dragonborn everywhere, since a hereditary model should have spread hte blessing to a significant portion of the population

sand flume
#

todd howard talks about the sovngarde dragonborns?

quartz shuttle
#

No, but he did talk about the Dragonborn in general ina 2011 interview in Game Informer

sand flume
#

right, i meant in relation to those guys

quartz shuttle
#

Presuably they were just nobodies who never did anything interesting with their gifts

sand flume
#

they probably did something if they managed to get to the hall of valour :P

quartz shuttle
#

Die in a fight

#

The Hall of Valour doesn't seem to have high standards, really

sand flume
#

thats just sovngarde

#

hall of valour is reserved for heroes

#

iirc

quartz shuttle
#

Supposedly, but one of it's inhabitants is a bard who died... acomplishing very little

sand flume
#

svaknir just roams around sovngarde in the mists

#

not the hall of valour

quartz shuttle
#

Does he? Maybe i'm thinking of Olaf

#

Who, by historical accounts, was a tyrant

#

Not much of a hero

#

Then again, these are Nords we're talking about. Their standard for Hero is"Good at killing things"

pastel sorrel
quartz shuttle
#

It's linked to Akatosh, sure, but we actually have no evidence of his direct agency over it, outside of the myth of Alessia

#

Which we now have reason to doubt, because of Miraak

pastel sorrel
#

Why would he not have direct agency over it? Reman is only allegedly related to Alessia, and Hjalti and Agnorith have no known relation to either of them. We have no direct information on how Miraak received his blessing, but certainly nothing that puts Alessia's mythology in more doubt.

#

Dragonborn became a thing during his time for the purpose of dealing with Alduin and his lot, but he then elected to take his own path while everyone else was still fighting.

#

See also: Katariah.

pastel sorrel
#

Or even necessarily the last to ever appear.

#

even the dragons can't see past the end of time, i doubt the Elder Scrolls can either. Either the LDB loses to Alduin and is the final one, or he wins, and nobody knows what's to come in the future until it passes that point.

quartz shuttle
#

Which we know is not true. So it's starting from a known falsehood to make it's claim

#

And Kateriah proves nothing. She had true-blood Septims at her side throughout her entire reign. First her husband, then their son, who became Emperor after her. Her second son would be a bigger problem, but his own successor, his cousin, was considered a closer relative tot he main Septim line, indicating the Lariats were related to the Septims the whole time.

#

Mannimarco makes it very clear that being Dragonborn is a Birthright, it's not something you can seize, or be given. You're born into it.

gaunt bear
#

@quartz shuttle My guess: Only Akatosh himself can decide which soul receives a sliver of his essence, and not even the Dovah can predict their father’s will.

As for Alduin’s fate: Alduin was so deep in the “arrogance of power” that the only thing that could “heal” him was a good “rebirthing”. So Alduin will inevitably return in a new form, but I hope it’ll be a wiser one.

pastel sorrel
quartz shuttle
#

We've never once seen the Dragonfire ritual, what is entitled, or how it works

#

Slapping the amulet on her son after her husband dies could have fulfilled the terms

pastel sorrel
#

that's patently false and we're told on multiple occasions why it's necesary for Dragonborn emperors to be doing it.

quartz shuttle
#

We also have to assume that the Fires don't instantly just whick out when the Emperor dies, otherwise every unexpected death would cause a crisis

pastel sorrel
#

Katariah had to do it herself, and she wouldn't be Empress if she wasn't a legitimate Dragonborn herself.

quartz shuttle
#

We have literally nothing to suggest that

#

Because we know NOTHING about how the ritual works

pastel sorrel
#

I'd daresay it's you who knows nothing of the ritual, since we have established lore on this already.

quartz shuttle
#

And all this is secondary to the fact that Todd Howard literally says the Dragonblood is hereditary in the 2011 interview

#

No, we know literally nothing about it. All we know is that it happens, and that Mannimarco twisted it to cause the Soul Shatter

#

The process, actors, and even timing are entirely unknown

pastel sorrel
#

While we don't know all the particulars, we know it's Dragonborn doing it, and likewise no ruler would've been accepted as legitimate during Katariah's time if they weren't Dragonborn and thus accepted by the Amulet of Kings.

quartz shuttle
#

Kateriah WASN'T viwed as legitimate by the Elder Council, and it was her competent leadership that kept her inpower

#

Because she was popular with the general populace

pastel sorrel
#

She was viewed as legitimate, though. They were concerned about her distance from the Septim bloodline, but she was still a legitimate ruler.

#

There may well've been an element of racism, too, knowing TES.

#

After her or her son (i'm forgetting off the top of my head who came right after her) is when they brought in someone closer to the actual Septim line, but she herself was not considered illegitimate.

quartz shuttle
#

The Elder Council was unruly, and it took a duel to even bring them in line. They also spent her entire rule consolidating their power and eroding the authority of the throne.

#

Her first son was a direct heir, having been the son of Pelagius. Her second son was a Lariat. However, they brought in ANOTHER Lariat, considered closer to the Septim main line, after his (Cyssander?) death

#

So the Lariats were already a Septim offshoot by that point, and her second husband was almost certianly a distant Septim

#

No, Cyssander was her's and Peladius' son. Uriel IV was her's and teh Lariat's son.

#

Cephorus, then, was the cousin of Uriel IV who the Council selected, and was claimed to be closer to the Septim line.

#

In fact, the primary source on her outright calls out her son with Pelagius as the primary claim of legitimacy amongst her supporters

"The Empress Regent of Tamriel was proclaimed Empress Katariah I upon the death of her husband. Some who do not mark the end of the Septim bloodline with the death of Kintyra II consider the ascendancy of this Dark Elf woman the true mark of its decline. Her defenders, on the other hand, assert that though Katariah was not descended from Tiber, the son she had with Pelagius was, so the imperial chain did continue."

pastel sorrel
#

the duel in question, assuming it did happen, was from during her regency, not when she was made Empress.

#

She had to convince them that she was the best fit to rule while Pelagius III was still alive seeking treatment. With his death, there was a divine mandate that needed fulfilling which the Elder Council was acutely aware of and was ultimately working towards

quartz shuttle
#

And a divine mandate that would have been easily filled by her Son

#

Because, again, as Mannimarco makes very clear, being Dragonborn is a BIRTHRIGHT

pastel sorrel
#

She would not be Empress if her son was the one wearing the AoK

quartz shuttle
#

It's not something you can attain.

pastel sorrel
#

at best she would be regent still

quartz shuttle
#

Why not, Jauffre himself cl;early states that most people assocate the Emperor witht eh Dragon Throne, not the Amulet of Kings

pastel sorrel
#

So? Public opinion is a separate matter to the actual workings of the dynastic succession

quartz shuttle
#

But you're basic the entire claim that the easy solution isn't possible on widely available records, which are both the indicators of, and product of, public opinion

pastel sorrel
#

It's also notable that Katariah's from long before when people are said to've considered the throne (or more accurately the crown) to be the symbol of rulership

#

Her time was the mid-to-late second century 3E. TES4, where Baurus gives that line, is in the fifth.

quartz shuttle
#

True, but we have no indication of the public opinion at the time, nor do we have any sort of record of ritualistic actions of really any Emperor

pastel sorrel
#

She was a lot closer to the time of Tiber Septim and the divine mandate's heyday in the public eye than anyone of TES4's time

#

We have no records because they're taken for granted

quartz shuttle
#

Probably because the whole 'Instant snuffing of the Dragon Fires' doesn't make a lick of sense if you actually tracked it like that

#

Cephorus had to travel from Highrock to Cyrodiil after his cousin's death, meaning the Dragonfires woudl have been out for weeks at LEAST in that situation.

#

But just like we have no reference for the Dragonfire Rituals of each Emperor, we have no reference for the Dragonfires going out every time one dies unexpectedly

#

Because the whole thing doesn't make sense when you look at it under a microscope

pastel sorrel
#

It's established that the Dragonfires ritual is part of the coronation, and there's been many emperors since Tiber, so there'd be no need to make a note of something if it's business as usual. Usually there's a heir ready, probably especially if there's any indication the current emperor might be biting the dust soon, but even with the occasional hiccup where it takes a few days to weeks to coronate the new emperor, it's not like there's major daedric forces in place ready to invade at all times, or if they are then the emperor's got good friends in high places keeping those under control.

#

Katariah's reign, meanwhile, lasted for decades.

quartz shuttle
#

Decades in which her son, a known Septim Heir, was present

pastel sorrel
#

Was present and not coronated emperor.

quartz shuttle
#

Again, we don't actually know what the Dragonfire Ritual entails. As such, we don't know how easy it would be to fake for the masses

#

It could be as easy as having Cyssander wear the real amulet, and Kateria wearing a fake for the corrination

pastel sorrel
#

We know a Dragonborn's required for it and that doing it officially coronates the new emperor

quartz shuttle
#

And all of this is assuming that Kateria herself wasn't a Dragonborn in the first place, which is entirely possible on it's own (though unecessary)

pastel sorrel
#

There's no official emperor without that validation of the AoK and Dragonfires. Again, you're overestimating how little lore we have and you're ignoring all the surrounding lore that lends further context. Holistically speaking, you're right that some things don't necessarily line up absolutely 100% under a microscope, but it makes the most sense that Katariah herself was Dragonborn by blessing or heritage (even with heritage, think about it, someone had to be blessed initially at the start of that line) and thus took the throne legitimately as she's depicted. There's multiple factors at play and so many things are broken if she isn't Dragonborn.

quartz shuttle
#

Here's the problem. No. No one had to initially be blessed at the start of the line

pastel sorrel
#

The Imperial Council wanting a closer Septim heir is just politics, and they have it after Cassynder's reign. But even they can't argue with the divine mandate.

quartz shuttle
#

Because the actual line could START in the Dawn. it's entirely possible the Altmer are right, and they ARE descendants of the Gods, and the Dragonborn are just Akatosh's lineage in mortal form.

#

He didn't necessarily HAVE to bless anyone, he just had to have a drunken night with Mara.

pastel sorrel
#

If that was the case, all altmer, bretons and basically half the entire population through genetic spread would be Dragonborn and able to wear the AoK.

quartz shuttle
#

In order for it to be a blessing, it means Akatosh has to actively select each and every Dragonborn. It means that he needs to be picky, or not picky, and actively meddling in the affairs of mortals on a regular basis.

pastel sorrel
#

Well yeah

quartz shuttle
pastel sorrel
#

Or otherwise be selective in what lines he blesses

quartz shuttle
#

Then why not Varen? Who was arguably a better Emperor than... well, the vast majority of Septims

#

If it's a selective blessing, how could the Blades track it? How could Mannimarco not force it?

#

Mannimarco almost consumed a GOD. But he's explicit inthe fact that you can't steal being a Dragonborn

pastel sorrel
#

He was good, but that he sought to cheat the system and fell to Mannimarco's trap goes to show. He himself even realizes his mistake.

quartz shuttle
#

And yet, Uriel III, who plunged Tamriel into a civil war and almost destroyed the Empire, gets a pass just because he's a blood Septim?

pastel sorrel
#

Probably? Especially given he was making a mess of an established relative peace that was then restored, as opposed to Varen who was gonna have to start from scratch in the middle of major wars spanning the entire continent between major factions, unlikely to ever get anywhere even without the Planemeld mucking it all up

#

by the time Tiber shows up, the only real alliance left was the reformed AD, and even that was barely anything

#

Varen never would've been able to accomplish what Tiber does or even what the Remans did, so there would've been very little point in giving him the blessing.

quartz shuttle
#

So? Alessia was 'blessed' and didn't even control all of Cyrodiil

#

Hell, at it's height, the Alessian's didn't even control half the continent.

#

He's clearly not picking based on Peace and Land

pastel sorrel
#

You're missing the critical context: they controlled Cyrodiil

quartz shuttle
#

And so did Varen

#

So, why one and not the other? And this is the problem with the Blessing model, it requires you to ask 'Why?' for every single Dragonborn

pastel sorrel
#

For a short time, yes. Alessia didn't have anything on the scale of the Three Banners War to content with, nor did Reman

quartz shuttle
#

it requires Akatosh to cherry pick every single Dragonborn, even the pointless rubes who are getting drunk in Sovengarde

pastel sorrel
#

Varen did. His control of Cyrodiil, already an embattled mess before the Planemeld, would've been an uphill battle to put it lightly.

#

Even if he ruled it, the DC wanted to be the new Empire, the AD wanted total control, and the EP, while a defensive pact, saw the utility in counter-invasions and holding key territory such as Cyrodiil.

quartz shuttle
#

Literally the only problem witht eh Hereditary Model that can't be explained through in-universe context is the Scale Issue. And that COULD, if you really want to stretch a few in-game hypotheses and statements

pastel sorrel
#

Tiber meanwhile is able to slip in while everyone was mostly doing their own thing or just busy fighting one another.

#

If Varen had've come in in Tiber's time instead of Tiber himself, we might well've had an Aquilarios dynasty of Dragonborn emperors. But his was not the time. Cyrodiil had fallen and the rest of Tamriel was ready to invade it.

quartz shuttle
#

We know it's something that can be tracked, both by the Tsaesci blood seal and the fact thei Blades had compiled lists of possible Dragonborn lineages during the Interregnum as they sought a new master.

We know that all known Dragonborn Emperors have been hereditary lineages with direct continuity of bloodlines, with the ONLY break easily explained by a simple bait and switch during a single ritual.

We know that Mannimarco directly attributes it to being a Birthright rather than an achievement.

We know that history has has plenty of Dragonborn which have achieved nothing of historical note, so it's safe to say it's not exactly a super special or rare thing.

pastel sorrel
#

The key point of the Dragonborn emperors is keeping control of the WGT. Pieces start falling into place when you note the utility of Akatosh putting a bit of himself down on the ground to hold onto it.

brisk perch
#

TMK, by the time of TESV, Mannimarco has actually become a god by becoming another moon, but I do not know if he still has individuality/consciousness anymore.

quartz shuttle
pastel sorrel
#

I feel like "birthright" is being taken to mean ancestral right a little too much here. The Ruby Throne in the time of the divine mandate was by right filled by Dragonborn.

quartz shuttle
#

Especially since the Novels make it clear that the Tower, and the Dragonfires, are seperate system. I doubt the Emperor's even really understood the significance of Chim-El

pastel sorrel
#

Likewise Dragonborn are said to be born with the souls of dragons, or at least dragonic in nature. By birthright you can call yourself Dragonborn and avail yourself of whatever is granted to them.

quartz shuttle
#

Far more likely, Alessia, a Dragonborn, used her power and inherent link to Akatosh to create the Covenant on her own, using a big ass Soul Gem as the conduit

pastel sorrel
#

And even if you're blessed after the fact like Alessia was said to be, there's a point to be made about divinity and its retroactive nature; explicitly, "before" and "after" cease to matter regarding divine power and ascension.

#

Once you're blessed, you're blessed.

quartz shuttle
#

The Covenant doesn't exist because Akatosh wills it, because that's not what the Dragonborn exist for. They exist to destroy Alduin. Alessia, being a right bad ass that she was, took that power and used it for something else.

#

The took Akatosh's power and made it serve her goals.

pastel sorrel
#

They existed to fight Alduin and his lot. That doesn't mean Akatosh's can't later go "hey i can also use this for something else"

quartz shuttle
#

No, it doesn't. But it again creates the problem of poking holes in his every choice.

#

Erodes the inherent distance of the Aedra from mortal affairs

#

Contradicts the notion that they are gone or dead

#

And makes Akatosh just a terrible judge of character

pastel sorrel
#

You're misunderstanding what i'm talking about with the Tower. Putting Dragonborn in control of the WGT means A. access to the second-most-powerful Tower on Tamriel, and B. access to the Dragonfires to help reinforce the liminal barriers and limit daedric incursions. Whether or not they're separate systems (and they don't necessarily have to be), it's a prime centerpoint for Akatosh to control.

pastel sorrel
quartz shuttle
#

"These snake people assassinated my Remans, and took over, ending decades of war and establishing trade and relative stability. To Oblivion with THEM. But these Septims... Yeah, i can totally get behind a genocidal egotist whose descendants are going to constantly bicker and fight amongst themselves, and then almost destroy the world several times over"

quartz shuttle
#

Meanwhile, the far more active Daedra regularly engage with their followers

pastel sorrel
#

As messy as the Septims' time was, it was objectively the best peace Tamriel had ever known, which should tell you how much of a mess it normally is.

quartz shuttle
#

Imperial propaganda.

pastel sorrel
#

Not really?

#

not saying there wasn't any, but that doesn't mean it's entirely wrong

quartz shuttle
#

The Septims sucked, and no one liked them. They just like to constantly claim they were grand and prosperous, and since they write most of the books, they get away with it

brave shoal
#

dunno, beating everyone down so badly they must submit dont sound like a good time for anyone not imperial

pastel sorrel
#

I mean technically it was the Nords who started it

pastel sorrel
quartz shuttle
#

The provinces regularly chafed under Imperial rule, and the instant those chains loosened half the continent tried to go their own way.

pastel sorrel
#

After all, they literally are the world and its workings. The plane was constructed out of those who died to become it, and those who didn't but still became inextricably bound to it.

#

Looking for Kyne in the wind is like looking around for your own eyeballs.

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah, and it consumed them

pastel sorrel
#

It's a grand play where the actors have forgotten there's a crew behind the curtain.

quartz shuttle
#

When you've been carved up and forced to preform constant natural processes, and all the Mundus is built out of your dismembered carcasses, it's kind ahard to have an active role

pastel sorrel
#

On the contrary, the Mundus is their active role

quartz shuttle
#

You might as well say Tiamat is actively creating the world

pastel sorrel
#

People just don't realize it's going on. The aedra don't make a show of telling people they're doing anything very often. Why would they? They're busy running the place and telling people they exist doesn't really affect anything.

quartz shuttle
#

Manifestations of the Aedra, and their ability to directly interact, seem entirely limited to major events that threaten or disrupt the function of the Mundus. Dragonbreaks, and proximity to the Heart of Lorkhan

pastel sorrel
#

If someone really wants to listen, then you have cases like the Sybils and such. But otherwise, they let their creation live as it is.

#

and protect it when they can

fringe fern
#

Out of left field but Talos is a lot less impressive as a god when you find out how much of a massive jerk Tiber Septim was.

quartz shuttle
#

The Aedra, Akatosh included, don't have general agency. They're too focused, either willingly or otherwise, on just keeping Mundus running. And having Akatosh regularly picking petty despots to rule over his favourite collection of huts in the forest fundimentally undermines that

pastel sorrel
#

You're asking why Akatosh, the biggest dragon of them all, is concerned about ruling key territory?

quartz shuttle
pastel sorrel
#

really, the bot even censors that?

quartz shuttle
#

He's the king of the gods, and rules over the primary mechanism of the entire system; Linear Time

fringe fern
pastel sorrel
#

That he rules it doesn't mean he fully controls it, anymore than a king controls every working of his kingdom.

#

Sometimes he's gonna come in and do things himself.

quartz shuttle
# fringe fern What he did to Barenziah was unconscionable.

Wild conspiracy. He grew a soul and abandoned the abortion, letting her keep the child in secret. The child was raised and later married one Pelagius, and Kateriah was in fact a direct heir to Septim himself.

Zero actual evidence to support that of course.

quartz shuttle
#

Akatosh doesn't show up, ever. Even when his own children invade his realm.

pastel sorrel
#

Even aside from Barenziah, Tiber was a horrid person. But that's people for you, he was a charismatic tyrant.

fringe fern
#

I thought Kateriah was her granddaughter by Nightengale.

pastel sorrel
#

While they may not be directly controlled by him, they're still pieces of him.

fringe fern
#

Cliffracers. Dragons are cliffracers.

pastel sorrel
#

Oh 100%

#

that's why the cliff racers won against them, they were themselves dragons

fringe fern
#

And just as annoying

quartz shuttle
#

no, a single source suggests they MAY be pieces of Akatosh, fragments of time. Pre-Riddle'Thar Khajiiti beliefs make them his legitimate children, something which is then supported by Parthurnaax

#

The only source that marks them as fragments is also speculative and recognises it's own lack of evidence

pastel sorrel
#

We've gotten additional lore that more supports them being fragments of himself, i'm forgetting off the top of my head exactly what just introduced it. It might've been ESO or possibly the board game

#

I know it was very recent, there was a conversation about it in another discord i'm in

quartz shuttle
#

I'd need to see the sources on that then, because ESO is what finally turned me from the Shard argument, which i was once a major supporter of

fringe fern
#

Bringing ESO into lore discussions....you like to dance close to the fire, don't you?

pastel sorrel
quartz shuttle
#

ESO is fantastic, and easily the best lore contribution to the franchise since Morrowind. Possibly the best since the Redguard Rewrite

pastel sorrel
#

^

#

If it's the tired old "but ESO has retcons", every games has had retcons, ESO doesn't really do anything more than what's come before it for how big the damn thing is. ESO's actually done more to consolidate the lore of the entire series, even bringing back obscure stuff from the side games that few people have played or would even know of.

#

And if it's the "but it isn't a Bethesda game", Bethesda does not own the IP. ZeniMax does, and they formed ZOS specifically to handle ESO while Bethesda does the singleplayer games. The two groups work together to keep the lore lined up, since they're both working on the same IP.

#

ESO is an official TES title that's since had connections in Legends and even (IIRC) TES5 through the CC which, while explicitly in a canon grey area, still goes to further show that ESO is a part of things going forward.

pastel sorrel
#

It's probably not entirely gospel, and what it does can can just as well be more metaphorical than literal.

#

The dragons being Akatosh's children is not mutually exclusive with them being shards of him.

#

Especially when "children" and other familiar terms in context of the et'ada are often more metaphorical than not.

quartz shuttle
#

Oh, it's definitely not gospel. But it does support Parthurnaax's statements more directly over Shalidor's speculation.

#

True, but even without general reproduction, producing new Ada through teh interplay of 2 or more existing ones does happen.

#

The enitre range of et'Ada were create through the interplay of spiritual forces, for instance. Akatosh and Molag Bal (a demon of fire and stone) 'parenting' Alduin wouldn't be that peculiar in the Dawn

pastel sorrel
#

Sure, and there's absolutely questions that can be raised connecting Molag Bal to Akatosh and such

quartz shuttle
#

Fire and stone? Or flame and Shadow? I can't remember what the Khajiit say Alduin was born from...

pastel sorrel
#

But again, be careful about taking things too literally. The Dawn by nature is almost entirely metaphor

pastel sorrel
quartz shuttle
#

It's also literal. Because Metaphor and literal manifestation blend together in the Dawn

#

Water that is still as glass, becomes the same as glass, and what not

#

But when you start playing with the Dawn you get into a lot of weird thought experiments that make it... Very difficult to rationalise and explain

pastel sorrel
#

Well yeah, War of Manifest Metaphors and all that, but even those manifestations are no less metaphorical

#

the Mundus is where things are truly "solid" in the way we mortals would define it. The Dawn is the normal nature of the Aurbis, and it's not bound by the strict rules of Convention as Nirn is.

#

The gods were ideas before they were beings, and even those beings are still ideas.

#

Molag Bal is Domination given its own intelligence.

#

Akatosh is Time. So on and so forth.

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah

pastel sorrel
#

It's even a specific point brought up in dank old Battlespire that the daedra (and probably et'ada in general) seem so stagnant because they, ultimately, have nothing to do beyond carry out their natures

#

they fight, but they're immortal, so they come back. All they're doing is moving pieces around over and over

#

whereas mortals, being mortal, seek to innovate, and that's why daedra like trading with mortals for our creations.

quartz shuttle
#

Mortals are themselves an interplay of all those ideas, allowing for new reflections and innovations

pastel sorrel
#

the gods are metaphorical, but within the Mundus they can actually live.

quartz shuttle
#

So that they can become more than they were before

#

At least, that was supposedly the sales pitch

pastel sorrel
#

Actually thinking about it, the structure of the Aurbis (at least for the layman's understanding) is commonly depicted as the Wheel

#

and of course when viewed from the side, it's the I

#

But from a layered perspective, it's almost a diamond

#

Spreads out from Anu/Padomay (particularly Anuiel/Sithis if the Altmeri theology is correct), but then coalesces again within the Mundus.

#

Prism at the top, but re-merging at the bottom.

#

Also of note is the Imperial City, while overtly a wheel, is actually a diamond too when you account for all of its towers.

#

Red diamond within a diamond within a diamond

quartz shuttle
#

Hmm... there's a whole write up somewhere in there...

pastel sorrel
#

No wonder it then loops to Amaranth

#

The beginning becomes the end becomes the new beginning as the prism inverts

timber bough
#

personally i'm not content with tes lore until you can somehow interpret a four-dimensional tesseract into it

pastel sorrel
#

gottem

timber bough
brisk perch
#

TBH, Retcons are actually a canon mechanic within The Elder Scrolls due to the nature of the Aurbis as a whole, as well as timey wimey, wibbly wobbly... stuff

brisk perch
frigid willow
#

If they're made from Akatosh's own being they would be fragments however dragons seem to have very distinct personalities and most dragons aren't designed for a special role like alduin so it's not like they represent aspects of Akatosh.

#

You could make the argument that Alduin's role as the world eater ties him into Akatosh's role as the time God since if Alduin does his job time as we know it ends and Akatosh no longer has a purpose.

#

I believe outside of Skyrim the common belief is that the nords consider Alduin to just straight up be Akatosh because those roles tie together. However we know that Alduin ish reel und he eint akatosh.

robust lintel
#

Question, please. I realize that Morrowind's focus was with the Dunmer race, Oblivion with the Imperials, and lastly Skyrim with the Nords.

#

Has their been an Elder Scrolls title where the Orcs have been the more centralized focus yet?

uncut hatch
timber bough
#

daggerfall and ESO have featured orsinium, not much more than that

uncut hatch
#

daggerfall was the game they got their rights from

frigid willow
#

Not a full game. ESO has a dedicated Orsinium dlc.

uncut hatch
#

orcs don't have a province either >_>

robust lintel
#

Was Daggerfall more focused on the Bretons or the Orcs though?

frigid willow
#

Breton.

robust lintel
#

Like in the sense that Nords were the focus in Skyrim.

quartz shuttle
#

Daggerfall wasn't really focused on anything

uncut hatch
frigid willow
#

A version of Orsinium exists in Skyrim times according to the load screen.

quartz shuttle
#

It's before that sort of cultural identity was developed

robust lintel
#

It's just the trend I noticed. Dunmer, Imperial, Nord.

uncut hatch
#

daggerfall was focused on bretons, redguards and orcs along with the imperial province doing shady stuff

uncut hatch
frigid willow
#

Yeah

robust lintel
#

Okay, thanks for input. I was just re-visting old trailer and such for TESVI. I just got the feeling that TESVI main questline will be centralized around the Orcs (that's not to say that Bretons and Redguards won't be involved, because it's likely to either both provinces or ar least one of those two I believe). Going with this theory of it being more focused on Orc history and lore, what could the potential game main anatognist be because I'm not all that familiar on their lore, but am reading up on it.

uncut hatch
#

jesus christ i looked up dragontail mountains and fandom wiki just linked every house, temple and tavern in daggerfall into the wiki... wth

frigid willow
#

There's not much info on the mountains proper. I remember looking into it a few months ago and its best tldred as "these mountains exist and orcs live in them maybe."

uncut hatch
fringe fern
# robust lintel Okay, thanks for input. I was just re-visting old trailer and such for TESVI. I ...

I think the primary antagonists will be the Thalmor, that much is obvious. Or at least a big part of the main quest. We still don't have any idea of a setting though, so it's hard to be sure. My money is on Elsweyr, Summerset or Hammerfell. Most likely Hammerfell, from how heavily it's referenced in Skyrim. Then again Oblivion didn't heavily hint at any one province for next game that I know of.

#

It would be fun if it were Summerset, working to take down the Thalmor from their own turf with the help of the Psijic Order.

#

Or it could be another multiple province game like Daggerfall, focusing on the Dominion territories.

uncut hatch
#

hammerfell would be fun if the thalmor are the main evil people knowing the thalmor nuked refugees there

fringe fern
#

The only way Hammerfell could really be interesting is if the team takes time to really worldbuild and do their landscapes right. Yeah we know Hammerfell is mostly desert but I want to see more than just sand and a few rocks. I'm from Arizona and the geography is so much more varied than that. I want to see parts of Hammerfell that look like the Mojave, not just the Sahara. Also, oases and high desert regions too.

robust lintel
#

Given that Orsinium (4th time now) is now in Dragontail Mountains of Hammerfell. It could be of benefit to the Thalmor if the Orcs were to finally carve out their own province within part of Hammerfell (seeing as how their is a bit of bitterness between Hammerfell and the Thalmor).

frigid willow
#

Yes and no.

Historically speaking orcs are empire supporters. Having them take a chunk of daggerfall/hammerfell would give the empire another political ally.

desert kayak
#

I just had a thought, would the Last Dragonborn ascend to the status of Divine if he had absorbed Alduin's soul at the end of the main questline? Or after his death like Talos?

uncut hatch
#

well, last dragonborn never ate alduin's soul. so i doubt any

frigid willow
#

Ldb doesn't get a soul from alduin

uncut hatch
#

tiber is a bit confusing with the divine part

robust lintel
#

The thing is, I'm not entirely sure if Alduin even possessed a soul based on what he was and came from. Or at least not in the same sense

frigid willow
#

Alduin probably isn't even dead in the way we use the word.

uncut hatch
#

not sure if tiber made tamriel believe that he was a god or numidium created Talos

#

probably latter

frigid willow
#

The end of the world is inevitable so Alduin has to exist in some form later on. Ergo he can't be dead in the mortal way.

fringe fern
#

His timer has been reset, if that makes sense.

frigid willow
#

We weren't stopping the end of the world.

We were stopping the PREMATURE end of the world.

uncut hatch
#

so in the real world, volcanic islands aren't ashy at all and if they are, the world usually notices it pretty quickly. but morrowind is just coated in ash and no one else in tamriel seems to get effected by it

#

how that work?

frigid willow
#

Yeah you woild expect that to be an issue.

fringe fern
#

I mean they did just have a major volcanic eruption that is still ongoing.

timber bough
frigid willow
#

Uhh.

Kynareth made the wind stop blowing in morrowind

#

So the ash can't drift.

fringe fern
#

There are some ashy areas in eastern Skyrim, in that hot springs basin.

frigid willow
#

You know it's not like Bethesda doesn't think about these things.

Drifting debris comes up in fallout a lot because of how nukes work.

#

Its not exactly volcanic ash but a tidal wave of irradiated dirt is still a problem

timber bough
#

it's just because it looks cool and fits morrowind's flair

uncut hatch
fringe fern
#

Not really, wind can carry volcanic ash pretty far

uncut hatch
#

no the hot springs are volcanic activity

frigid willow
#

The eruptions are just Thalmor propaganda I tells ya!

dusky scaffold
#

ask the dark elf refugees

uncut hatch
#

i can't, theyre not real and they'll probably blame me for it

frigid willow
#

You mean the dark elf crisis actors

uncut hatch
#

nooooooo

frigid willow
#

So are we supposed to believe Morrowind is experiencing ongoing volcanic activity or was the one event just so bad it made the region bad for living in ?

uncut hatch
#

in eso theres active volcanos everywhere

timber bough
#

the red mountain properly exploded

frigid willow
#

Yeah but that's also a very long time ago.

frigid willow
uncut hatch
robust lintel
#

Oh my

timber bough
uncut hatch
#

what if red mountain looked like yellowstone instead

desert kayak
#

Doesn't ESO happen between the second and the third empire?

timber bough
#

yea

uncut hatch
frigid willow
#

Explosions and Eruptions aren't really the same thing.

Eruptions don't usually blow the volcano apart.

timber bough
#

keep in mind that the reason it exploded was Baar Dau crashing into Vivec City

frigid willow
#

Was vivec city in the mountain?

desert kayak
#

So how bad is Morrowing by the 4th Era? You know, after the Tribunal lost their power, Vivec City was crushed by a meteor, the Red Mountain erupted/exploded and the argonian invasion?

uncut hatch
#

red mountain is like when you stub your toe

#

a big rock falls on your foot and your head explodes off

timber bough
#

Nah, southern coast of Vvardenfell, but Baar Dau was the size of a small asteroid and iirc crashed into the ground with the original velocity it was launched unto tamriel

uncut hatch
#

damnit sul

timber bough
frigid willow
#

So the seismic activity set it off.

desert kayak
#

Blacklight is now the capital of Morrowind right?

dusky scaffold
#

yes

uncut hatch
#

baar dau was being kept afloat for a long time by souls because vivec "vanished". then one day it wasn't so it fell

frigid willow
#

So the issue I think is that a straightforward eruption is kinda like a vent expelling steam to alleviate pressure in a system.

If the volcano just straight up exploded that suggests the magma was shoved into the red mountain faster than it could be expelled.

desert kayak
#

Maybe the Tribunal were also stopping the volcano from exploding? Or maybe they exploded it as a last "F you" act?

timber bough
#

Vivec was holding Baar Dau up

uncut hatch
frigid willow
#

In theory a massive amount of seismic activity could cause it but the world we're discussing also has magic.

uncut hatch
#

how hollow was baar dau again?

#

theres a prison in there

frigid willow
#

Those prisoners must have had one heck of a final ride.

desert kayak
#

Some time later, Baar Dau was hollowed out by the Tribunal Temple and became the Ministry of Truth, where the Temple would imprison dissident priests and attempt to reform them.[2] The high-security prison was accessible only through levitation, and was directed by a Grand Inquisitor who per tradition, wore a ring fortified with great enchantments.[8] The main areas were the Hall of Processing and the Prison Keep. Temple pilgrims offered levitation potions at the Shrine of Daring, which was dedicated to Vivec stopping the moon from destroying the city.[2]

uncut hatch
#

so those prisoners probably died before it fell

frigid willow
#

Dang.

#

They probably would have died before impact anyway.

uncut hatch
desert kayak
#

Early in the Fourth Era, after the disappearance of Vivec, the magic keeping Baar Dau afloat began to weaken. Two Dunmer, Sul and Vuhon, created an ingenium, a soul-powered device which supported the rock.[9] It was created by making a pact with Clavicus Vile, who had a penchant for souls. Hundreds of captured souls were needed to run the machine, but eventually living people were used. Only the people with the strongest souls were sacrificed. Ilzheven, Sul's love, was sacrificed by Vuhon, and the ingenium was destroyed when Sul attempted to rescue her. In 4E 5, without anything holding it up, Baar Dau resumed its long-delayed fall, returning to the momentum it had before being halted. This obliterated the city of Vivec, leaving a crater which would become Scathing Bay. In turn, the impact created tsunamis which ravaged mainland Morrowind and caused Red Mountain to erupt, devastating Vvardenfell.[9]

uncut hatch
#

ayyy sul

desert kayak
#

So the impact created tsunamis, which ravaged Morrowind and caused the Red Mountain to erupt

frigid willow
#

Like think about it. That thing suddenly starts falling and you're in it unsecured?
You're going to be bouncing off of stone walls like crazy.

Anyone inside would have been crushed by misplaced objects or just killed by being slammed into the walls.

uncut hatch
#

i didn't read that far into the novels so i don't know too much about what happened with the baar dau part

#

i didn't know it caused tsunamis @-@

desert kayak
#

In 4E 5, recorded by the Dunmer as the Red Year, Red Mountain erupted shortly after Baar Dau, since converted into the Ministry of Truth, completed its descent and impacted into Vivec City.[43] The eruption produced massive amounts of smoke and toxic ash that smothered much of Morrowind and left Vvardenfell almost entirely uninhabitable.[44] The portions of Morrowind that survived the initial calamity were not spared for long, as ash from the continually-erupting mountain poisoned the land and sea over the following decades.[44][45]. As of 4E 201, the volcano was still experiencing ongoing eruptions with ash reaching as far as Solstheim.[46]

frigid willow
#

Volcanic activity can have surprising consequences

desert kayak
#

Holy crap

timber bough
#

yeah most of morrowind got destroyed probably

frigid willow
#

When Krakatoa exploded it was recorded as being so loud people could hear it hundreds of miles away. Some allegedly had their eardrums ruptured.

timber bough
#

iirc mournhold was mostly fine, but that's also quite inland

uncut hatch
#

actually, morrowind is recovering quite a bit by 4E 201

desert kayak
#

So, even 200 years after the Red Year, the Red Mountain is still constantly erupting

uncut hatch
#

cause nirn should be ash by now

frigid willow
#

That can't just be seismic activity.

uncut hatch
#

thats why i don't like to think the novels are canon cool

frigid willow
#

I can't think of any easily avaiable magic that could make a volcano explode non stop for two hundred years.

uncut hatch
#

lorkhan's just salty his heart got stabbed

desert kayak
#

Maybe it's a magical backlash from keeping the asteroid from crushing Vvanderfell for what, thousands of years?

frigid willow
#

Both seem plausible.

#

Lorkhan could probably do it the question would really be why.

#

It could be retribution for his heart being used as a power source again

#

Which might also explain the lack of spread.

desert kayak
#

Something about stopping the natural order for so long?

desert kayak
frigid willow
#

Well in terms of like physics the only way you stop something from falling is by pushing against it with an equal amount of force. So that's probably how Vivec's spell worked. It also explains why it took time to wear off. The amount of energy it needed depleted.

#

Actually the spell could be the issue.

#

For argument's sake let's say that I'm right and vivec's spell worked that way. The meteor has a value of 100 units of energy so the spell must also be worth 100 units. If the spell decreased it could potentially redirected the spell's energy.

#

So the area wouldn't have just been hit by the rock but by the bulk of the force that once held it in place too.

robust lintel
frigid willow
#

Maybe the physical heart did but that doesn't mean the energy it held just went away.

#

When we talk about Lorkhan there's a lot of focus on his physical form being shattered but he's an aedra even if the elves don't like to admit it.

As an aedra his existence isn't necessarily limited to the fate of a physical form, rather that form is more like a conduit for interacting with other forms of life. .

uncut hatch
frigid willow
#

So temporal magic.

#

How does that work exactly?
If it was hollowed out that means time has to pass inside of it.

sleek grove
#

In ESO. Morrowind chapter spoilers: || we see the rock almost come crashing down. It had some force to it from what I saw, but it never did crash ofc.||

frigid willow
#

Also if it's been hollowed it's momentum should be less.

uncut hatch
desert kayak
#

This was all caused by Sheogorath right?

frigid willow
#

When did the morrowind chapter come out?

sleek grove
uncut hatch
sleek grove
uncut hatch
#

the simpler times

frigid willow
#

4 years.

#

I think any spoiler period has passed by now.

sleek grove
#

All it really does is get closer to Vivec City. It's fairly far in the beginning iirc

uncut hatch
#

yeah...

uncut hatch
sleek grove
#

There's no hollowed out part tho afaik in ESO

uncut hatch
#

i never did the quest

uncut hatch
sleek grove
#

idk when the hollowing out happened, but would of happened in the next 700 years or so

desert kayak
#

Well, if it's fast enough to burn air around it then the momentum really was kept through the ages

#

Just to be clear, Vivec could have just vanished the rock or something like that, but he chose to keep it in the air so people would see the Tribunal's power or something right?

sleek grove
#

Keep people in line

#

Probably, maybe I'm not sure

uncut hatch
sleek grove
#

Then he ran away and it happened anyway

uncut hatch
#

rip sul and vuhon

frigid willow
#

So he was holding morrowind hostage essentially

uncut hatch
#

yes

#

as gods do

frigid willow
#

Sounds like a swll gut.

desert kayak
#

Something something worship me you petty mortals

sleek grove
#

tbf Almalexia tried to frame the Nerveriene for Seht's death and the attacks to regain her peoples favour

uncut hatch
frigid willow
#

Say what you will but Sanguine never put a gun to my head.

sleek grove
#

I only ever liked Sotha Sil out the three, ultimately he made sure his City lived after he died

uncut hatch
#

he got the gun from sheo who found it somewhere >_>

sleek grove
#

Sotha Sil has a quote about the other two iirc, might be wrong

uncut hatch
#

yea that sounds about right

#

Vivec craves radical freedom - the death of all limits and restrictions. He wishes to be all things at all times. Every race, every gender, every hero, both divine and finite... but in the end, he can only be Vivec.
I cry every time 😔

sleek grove
#

Sotha Sil quote?

uncut hatch
#

yea

sleek grove
#

I like his Dwemer quote, about the question you should ask is why one remains

long burrow
#

Do the dwemers really look like the golden heads on the walls? Or the golden face on the spheres and centurions?

desert kayak
#

Following the disappearance of the Tribunes, the Temple entered a period of collapse, with some priests and adherents drifting towards the Imperial Cult.[4] After the devastation of the Red Year, the Temple—and, indeed, the Dunmer—entered a period of soul-searching and reorganization, much of which is lost to history.[1] [4] Ultimately, as predicted by Vivec, the New Temple returned to the original Dunmer faith: "the worship of our ancestors and the three good daedra, Azura, Mephala and Boethiah".[5] The Tribunes were ultimately demoted to the still-venerated roles of "saints and heroes" to help ease the transition. The New Temple worships the three Good Daedra as "the Reclamations".[1][6]

#

Boethiah and Mephala as the "Good Daedra"?

sleek grove
uncut hatch
sleek grove
#

Theres statues of them on Vvardenfell that use the same model iirc?

#

But with Shields and stuff

frigid willow
#

I headcanon that the faces on centurions are modeled after well known dwemer warriors or other important figures

long burrow
#

Strange how it doesn't look as cool as the metal statues on the walls and guards in the ruins

uncut hatch
sleek grove
#

I believe they are in ESO's Vvadenfell map too, but they are completely armoured in ESO

uncut hatch
sleek grove
#

I want ESO or TES VI to add the Spectre hat

frigid willow
#

You don't see any skin blemishes in paintings from the 15th century

rough venture
uncut hatch
rough venture
#

elder scrolls archaeologists: wow what beautiful dwemer metal... how it shines such a beautiful gold
the dwemer: haha primary colours go brrrr

uncut hatch
#

bruh that reminds me

#

i can't find a good picture but dwemer architecture is really colourful in redguard

rough venture
#

oh my god

uncut hatch
#

maybe i hyped myself up there >_>

rough venture
#

oh wow it's kind of like stained glass

uncut hatch
#

this kind of stuff

rough venture
#

why is this actually an exciting revelation

frigid willow
#

Looks like a big spider with not enough legs.

rough venture
#

it does look a bit like stained glass but it's more likely just paint for practical reasons, plus the fact that it doesnt appear in later games could mean it just genuinely rubbed off

uncut hatch
sleek grove
#

Dwemer recreated a bunch of life in Animunculi right?

uncut hatch
rough venture
#

oh wow! if it's a scarab then it was probably based off of the look of gemstones - oh my god oh my god oh my god

#

the brightly coloured scarab makes sense but wow that is. the absolute most

uncut hatch
sleek grove
#

This is on Stros M'kai right?

uncut hatch
#

yea

sleek grove
#

There's a very slim chance we see that again in TES VI. Very slim depending on it's scale (Assuming it's hammerfell too)

rough venture
#

oh i would be so excited

uncut hatch
#

so the hammer throwing lads built this stuff

rough venture
#

my fine art degree finally coming in handy as i analyse the in-game textures on the walls of a dwemer ruin to figure out Where The Colours Went

uncut hatch
rough venture
#

the scarab is confusing, since it's pretty clearly based off of ancient Egyptian jewellery (specifically probably the various scarab jewellery found in king tut's tomb, since it was so decadent) so the coloured parts are based off of gemstones... but this machine is so big that surely to use gemstones is incredibly impractical?? so i'd assume it's glass? unless the dwemer just wanted to flex on us real hard which is always a possibility

uncut hatch
#

wot

frigid willow
#

They were extra as all heck

robust lintel
# robust lintel Given that Orsinium (4th time now) is now in Dragontail Mountains of Hammerfell....

Adding onto this, it would be interesting if they carved their border up into parts of High Rock as well. Would be a good way of involving both provinces of Hammerfell and High Rock and simply just that the Orcs finally carve their own province in parts of both of them, seeing as how both the Redguards and the Breton have teamed up to ransack the Orcs time and time again. Sort of Daggerfall's map (being both those provinces) 2.0, but more focused on some of the left out areas in that game.

rough venture
#

the walls of the ruins are pretty clearly paint though - however with the very linear patterns, it's more of a stretch here but i gotta wonder if ancient egypt was on the inspiration board for the dwemer in redguard

frigid willow
#

Yeah I can see that.

uncut hatch
#

thats interesting that the dwemer were gonna be more Egyptian based

#

maybe the hammerfell ones were based off Egypt and the ones in morrowind, well.. whatever they are

rough venture
#

yeah i wonder if actually the dwemer had, like. some regional culture differences

sleek grove
#

We know they didn't all get along

rough venture
#

true!!!

sleek grove
#

the Rourken Clan left because they hated the idea of a treaty with the Chimer

#

So the legend goes the leader of the clan threw his hammer across Tamriel and would settle where it landed

#

Clan Kragen was based in Skyrim. Do we know what the Morrowind clan was called? I know their leader was called Dumac

uncut hatch
#

i don't know as much of dwemer lore as you do eheh sorry

rough venture
#

oh man... it could be so cool to see how the dwemer in hammerfell developed differently, separate from the rest of the dwemer...

sleek grove
#

Dumac was probably the most social Dwarf, he attended a Wedding with Nerevar and a few other events

desert kayak
#

What about the snow elves? Do you think the ones we see in Dawnguard were the last ones left? That weren't mutilated and turned into the blind abominations we see today I mean

uncut hatch
#

i always thought the dwemer in hammerfell had a different culture to the ones in morrowind

#

maybe thats a headcanon i have

rough venture
#

i honestly didnt know anything about the culture of the dwemer in hammerfell until today so im just excited

uncut hatch
#

rip those poor souls who vanished with no warning in hammerfell

sleek grove
#

Dumac gave Almalexia and Nerevar their swords, Hopesfire and Trueflame. And I believe Nerevar's ring too?

rough venture
sleek grove
#

Idk if there is any truth to it but I believe Kagrenac never told Dumac about the Numidium project as the Chimer would of despised it. Dumac being "best friends" with Nerevar

#

Dumac died at the climax of the Red Mountain battle iirc

#

Been a while since I fully read up on it so if I'm wrong I apologise

rough venture
#

i am just extremely impressed by the extent of your knowledge on the dwemer
i would have absolutely no idea if you're wrong or not, im just enjoying basking in the lore lol

sleek grove
#

I'd like to see Volenfell in TES VI. We saw it in ESO but it's a group dungeon iirc

#

I love the Dwemer lore a bunch, since I first explored Alftand in Skyrim. Though I have been wrong in the past on certain things

rough venture
#

surely if TES VI is set in hammerfell, they'd include volenfell somehow

uncut hatch
sleek grove
#

Indeed, but the important thing is to learn from it

#

Don't get me wrong the Dwemer were cruel in lore most of the time, I just like the lore itself. (Many people love the lore, and particular parts, and it's great to discuss it)

uncut hatch
#

just like how i like daedra lore even though they are mostly sucky

#

though, im losing daedra lore from my brain because im trying to force it out more @_@

sleek grove
#

We all have our favourite pieces of the deep lore

sleek grove
desert kayak
#

It would be pretty cool to learn sword-singing

sleek grove
#

ZoS recently teased they are delving into a race they haven't so far. People are saying Hammerfell and Redguards are next for ESO. Not a BGS title tho but lore related

#

I think we could see Sword-Singing in TES VI if they want to do something cool with a Redguard Hero (Assuming it's Hammerfell. And also assuming they want to give the Hero some ability again.) Problem with it is it's a forgotten art iirc?

robust lintel
#

This is highly speculative talk and I'm not even sure of it myself, more so just entertaining to the mind. But remember the so-called TESVI easter egg in the Starfield trailer and how no one could match it up on the Tamriel map despite most folks believing it will take place in Hammerfell and High Rock. I was looking at it again and the bold outline.. what if it's not recognizable because it's a new border province that is yet to come. In theory, for the Orcs? To me, it kinda looks like eastern parts of High Rock and Hammerfell (basically most of what was not in Daggerfall map) and a small western portion of Cyrodiil, and a small portion of Northern Valenwood (there actually are Wood Orcs).

rough venture
#

wow that would be insane but very cool

uncut hatch
rough venture
#

honestly as long as we're not going to skyrim again i'll be happy with wherever TES VI is set lol

#

could you image... skyrim 2....

desert kayak
#

It could be cool if TES VI happened in Hammerfell and the PC would be a leader on the Second Great War against the Thalmor

sleek grove
#

I think they could utilise the Spirit-Sword thing from Sword-Singing imo

uncut hatch
#

skyrim two, become emperor

rough venture
robust lintel
#

And if Starfield does turn out to transverse multiple systems.. it would be cool if they did for TES too and kinda spread it out more for multiple culture and experience for each title instead of just boom, one province in its set borders.

desert kayak
#

Since Hammerfell managed to single handedly repel the Thalmor in the first war

rough venture
sleek grove
#

Skyrim left hints to Hammerfell which might mean they've known the setting for a long while. It being independent etc. from the Great War book, but the Thalmor have spies there because the Woman in Skyrim from the quest: "In my time of need" she sold her city out the the Aldmeri Dominion. If you believe the Alik'r which imo you should

desert kayak
#

Yeah, her story doesn't make much sense, she says they're going to sell her to the Thalmor or something

robust lintel
#

True true, thats why I wouldn't say spread it out as much as say Arena.. just to what the tech can handle with great detail. Selecting specific areas to where it's like one province, but made up of a few. Furthermore, if it is centralized more on the Orcs for the next story, the territory spread could make sense

desert kayak
#

Or maybe

#

TES VI will happen in one of the countries in the Aldmeri Dominion and you have to choose either to help the Thalmor conquer the continent or creat a faction to fight it and rejoin the Empire

rough venture
#

it would be so cool to actually get to side with the thalmor

sleek grove
#

I have a theory we could maybe see a Cold War type scenario in VI. So Spies throughout TES VI in the region if things haven't escalated by TES VI

rough venture
#

OH that would be awesome!

sleek grove
#

Would be good for twists

#

who can you really trust etc. maybe

desert kayak
#

Yup

robust lintel
#

But I think they might have to open the rest of Morrowind, Elsweyr, Valenwood, and Argonia first before we get there, but it's just a guess at the on-going trend

rough venture
robust lintel
sleek grove
#

I think the Thalmor might win in the end unless some Tiber Septim type hero rises possibly

rough venture
#

i don't know if we'd ever go to elsweyr outside of maybe a DLC - i feel like bethesda would feel it could be too hard a sell, which is sad

robust lintel
#

I think they will open up reason to visit some of the more exotic lands in the games to come. There may not seem like much reason to go there now, but that can change.

desert kayak
rough venture
# sleek grove I think the Thalmor might win in the end unless some Tiber Septim type hero rise...

this is thinking way ahead into the future but it could be quite cool if the thalmor actually win in between TES VI and TES VII (doubt that they'd have the thalmor canonically win in game??? unless they win, like, halfway through the main quest & you spent the rest of the game trying to overthrow them, succeeding at the end, but that would probably wind up being way too rushed) and then TES VII explores the ramifications of that

desert kayak
#

Even more if he could rally some form of support from the other countries and crown himself as Emperor

robust lintel
sleek grove
#

I think it's possible Mora will keep the TLD

#

just so the hero is out the picture for VI, or they'll make another reason

desert kayak
#

Harmeous Mora only got Miraak because Miraak was going to die to that Dragon Priest in Solstheim and asked for help right?

#

A Kratos asking Ares for help kind of situation

sleek grove
#

I'm not sure if he died

rough venture
desert kayak
sleek grove
#

Maybe TLD went to Akavir

#

who knows, we might get something in VI possibly to suggest what happened

desert kayak
sleek grove
#

I believe so yeah

rough venture
#

yeah

sleek grove
#

The HoK became Sheo

desert kayak
#

Yup

robust lintel
#

They all get written off to Akavir it seems, even the Neveraine.

desert kayak
#

And the Eternal Champion became an advisor for Uriel VII iirc

sleek grove
#

I'm a little hopeful Jyggalag returns for a quest in VI

#

From a Blades easter egg, to a Creation Club quest

robust lintel
sleek grove
#

Wouldn't that just be Malacath?

desert kayak
robust lintel
#

It depends on the story or interpretation you believe regarding Malacath. The orcs even have their own in-fighting on this

sleek grove
#

Nocturnal didn't get a quest in Skyrim iirc, but she was involved in the Thieves Guild questline so that is just as good imo

#

I'm not sure if Jyggalag would have anything worth his time on Mundus since he might predate it. I don't think we know when his "curse" occurred

desert kayak
#

Harmaeus Mora got two quests in the form of the Oghma Infinium and the Dragonborn questline

#

Three if you count the Black Books

desert kayak
# desert kayak Harmeous Mora only got Miraak because Miraak was going to die to that Dragon Pri...

Skaal legend remembers Miraak as "the Traitor", and recounts how he plotted against the dragons with Hermaeus Mora. Another Dragon Priest, Vahlok the Jailor (known as "the Guardian" to the native Skaal), uncovered this deception, and the two engaged in a duel so vicious and destructive that the modern island of Solstheim was ripped from the mainland of Skyrim.[7][8] Vahlok defeated Miraak, but just as he prepared to deliver the killing blow, Hermaeus Mora snatched away and saved his champion.[7] Following this, the dragons razed his temple to ashes,[9] and tasked Vahlok the duty of watching Solstheim for signs of Miraak's return.

sleek grove
#

Mirrak started as a Dragon priest before he knew he was Dragonborn right?

#

Power corrupted him, he could of stopped Alduin as destiny but he had other plans. The three heroes of Skyrim's base game apparently asked for his help but he declined

desert kayak
sleek grove
#

afaik only Mirrak and TLD know the Bend Will shout

#

dunno how true that is, but that kind of power would go to your head

desert kayak
#

Yeah, it was knowledge only known by them and Mora

sleek grove
#

His ego nearly got him killed. Who knows what he'd of become if Vahlok didn't interfere and discover his plans