#elder-scrolls-lore

1 messages · Page 40 of 1

desert kayak
#

So, if all towers are deactivated, someone, probably the protagonist or antagonist of the game in which that happens, will have to be forced to keep reality together, as some Atlas-like figure

timber bough
#

I dont think all towers would ever be deactivated, and I dont think Bethesda would risk their franchise having a game with an ending thatd strictly seen mean the end of the world

#

Atleast not now

desert kayak
#

I mean

#

They killed off Uriel Septil VII and killed off the Septim dynasty

#

But yeah, I was talking about something that could happen in latter games, like TES7 or 8

solid path
#

Most of the towers seem to be disabled.

But even if they are working up to that, an ES game where you travel the world and reawaken the towers would be a very strong arc.

dusky scaffold
#

Ada-mantia is still a thing, isn't it?

solid path
#

I think that's the only one that's confirmed to still be working.

dusky scaffold
#

what about Green-Sap?
do we have any indication if its function ceasing?

solid path
#

The walking forest tower (down in Valenwood) has just stopped doing it's thing and wandering around.

#

That's assumed to be a sign that it's stopped, although as with a lot of things lore related the exact details escape me.

#

ES VI could plausibly have a final battle fought through Ada-Mantia to prevent <villain> from "breaking" the tower. It's just in range to be included.

dusky scaffold
#

provided ES VI is truely in hammerfell / the iliac bay area

sharp lantern
#

Given all the lore surrounding the region recently, especially Hammerfell, I'd be very surprised if we didn't go there.

quartz crane
robust lintel
timber bough
#

yeah no, not in the case of an intensely profitable gaming franchise

robust lintel
#

You misunderstood what I said. I wasn't talking about TES ending.

timber bough
#

ah i getcha

#

in any case while the towers lore is very intriguing, we still don't have any official lore that says the thalmor actually want to end the world

#

doesn't mean that bethesda couldn't do this plot anyway, but its something to consider when talking about the plot of the next TES game

#

personally im hoping they'll keep it more grounded

robust lintel
#

Endings do have a way of changing and morphing into something else rather than the whole "final ending" or last-minute surprises when the destination seemed inevitable and concrete before. Generally flexible

obtuse summit
#

rather than deactivated, its more like the towers losing their stones. like white tower now without red diamond as it was destroyed to call avatar of akatosh.

quartz shuttle
#

According to the Intercept, that should deactivate them

#

However, we know White-Gold was still actice in 4e31

quartz shuttle
#

The only Tower we are explicitly told has fallen, anywhere i am aware of is Red-Mountain

#

Orichalic and Crystal are assumed, given their physical destruction, and White-Hold is also assumed given the wording of the Dragonborn Prophecy

#

I say explicitly, but its only in the Intercept, which does not appear in any game and which also claims the Ayleids are returning tk retake their tower... so, you know

brave shoal
#

ayleids are still around? though they where mostly all gone/assimilated to other group (like those who fled to the direnni)

quartz shuttle
#

Hence the questions abojt the Intercept and what its saying

#

It could be twisted to imply that Mankar was an Ayleid heir, bjt thats a stretch in my mind

brisk perch
# quartz shuttle The only Tower we are explicitly told has fallen, anywhere i am aware of is Red-...

I think that Red Mountain is inactive due to it not having its stone in the same place, White-Gold also being inactive due its stone being sacrificed to end the Oblivion Crisis, at least from what I can tell from the games. Crystal-Like-Law I think was assumed to have fallen during the Oblivion Crisis on this Nirn, but its nature is slightly different due to it being on multiple planes at once, and could be restored in theory using the others. Not sure how much was revealed about Oricalc, but speculation points to it being sundered and relating to the sinking of Yokuda. Green Sap seems to still be active and is Elden Root.

quartz shuttle
#

Green-Sap is all Graht-Oaks. Elden Root included

brisk perch
#

I'm guessing that the ones that are still active as of the end of Skyrim would be Green Sap, Snow Throat, and Ada-Mantia

quartz shuttle
#

White Gold had to be active as of 4e31, because of it's attempted use to consume the souls of Umbriel

obtuse summit
#

the matters of losing stones are more like lost protection of aedra or usage of creatia power.

#

look at red mountain, exploding soon after vivec gone. i am sure vivec just channeling power of the red tower to stop ministry of truth. white tower that protect capital unable to stop thalmor attack on imperial city. Martin already used the stone to change barrier state.

solid path
#

For ones where the stone is lost rather than destroyed, a ritual to wake them back up with the stone might be possible I suppose.

#

For the ones with destroyed stones... perhaps some shenanigans to recreate them? I shudder to think what you'd have to sacrifice to do it though.

brave shoal
#

daedra enter the scene: just sign this little contract and its done >:)

brisk perch
#

This province of Tamriel is now my territory, and I'll protect our tower

obtuse summit
brave shoal
#

probably depend with which daedra you sign up with to determine how badly it turn^^'

solid path
#

I suppose Meridia might be almost handleable, and Nocturnal might just decide to steal Tamriel to keep it safe. 😛

obtuse summit
#

honestly, i don't imagine how is malacath gonna take tamriel? goblin invasion?

quartz shuttle
#

The question remains if new stones can be created. The Mantela, for instance, was an imitation, and unable to properly power the Numidium to it's true extent

#

Then again, you ahve the Amulet of Kings, which was destroyed... But the Tower still seems to work 30 years later. Maybe it's stone was replaced by the divine dragon statue in the temple of the One

brave shoal
#

for hermaeus mora, all i can think is tentacle and swamp everywhere

obtuse summit
brisk perch
#

I love Hermaeus Mora

obtuse summit
#

so what is animal totem for hermaeus mora ? squid? -_-

#

all daedra princes have animal totem CMIIW

#

except she0gorath probably

brave shoal
#

he my favourite daedra, i basically ripped him off for my d&d setting when creating a demon lord who know the future and trying to move events toward the right future he want to achieve. was fun to have a less bloodthirsty demon lord to pit against my players and they liked it

brisk perch
obtuse summit
#

mephala is spider, hircine is stag mostly

#

namira is bat, boethiah is snake? 🙂

brave shoal
#

in skyrim, my power and knowledge addicted mage sold her soul to every daedra willing but hermaeur mora was the favourite, but since she also a vampire lord, they gonna wait before doing the ol battle royal to claim it

brisk perch
#

TMK, Akatosh/Shor have first dibs on the Dragonborn

brave shoal
#

i'm sure old mora know a trick or two to dodge that old dragon

brisk perch
#

Unless he doesn't need to

zinc wigeon
#

Hard agree

#

I feel like while the other daedra fight over the dragonborn, hermaus would just be sipping some eldrich tea and reading forbidden knowledge to pass the time

obtuse summit
#

mora and mephala are siblings, that explain their many limbs lol.

brisk perch
#

Or are they...

zinc wigeon
#

I'm fairly sure all the daedra have a sibling relationship with each other

obtuse summit
#

or husband and wife lol

#

i read some lore about molag and meridia is married lol, so eso main quest is just usual marriage problem, smh.

zinc wigeon
#

Awww

#

But them being siblings is funnyyyyy

obtuse summit
#

but they are children of padomay lol

uncut hatch
#

Clavicus says hermaeus is also his brother

#

I think they just call each other siblings because they’re kinda similar to one another

solid path
zinc wigeon
#

I was about to quote wow

robust lintel
obtuse summit
#

imagine orsimer doing something like genghis khan invasion Shout

brave shoal
#

bretons and redguard be like how many time we have to teach you old man?

#

burn down orsinium again

obtuse summit
#

goblin and ogrim seems also worship malacath tho

#

just rally them under orc hero blessed by malacath.

brave shoal
#

i love goblins,(as evidently with my pfp), but more used to warcraft's variant. es look weird to me^^'

uncut hatch
brave shoal
#

i think saying that get you punched by any orc hearing you saying that lol

uncut hatch
#

I say “I think” cause I, not sure if it’s a canon book or dev fan fiction

obtuse summit
#

if mehrune dagon is created by magna-ge, technically he is meridia's niece?

brisk perch
#

I think in Khajiit lore, Meridia might have been responsible for the fighting between the gods in the mythic era?

zinc wigeon
obtuse summit
zinc wigeon
brave shoal
#

wait, i mixed molag with malacath,

#

orc wont punch you then, my bad

brisk perch
#

You could end up trapped in a soul gem, and left on a desk next to a soul gem containing Nazeem

uncut hatch
brave shoal
#

soul, exist molag: i want it now!

uncut hatch
brave shoal
#

guess my brain had fun imagining the god of orcs wearing a princess dress and how angry any orcs would be at the mere mention of such

uncut hatch
#

Souls to molag are like gum. He chews all the flavour out of em but they stick around for ages

uncut hatch
brisk perch
#

Sometimes I think the Daedra do what they do out of boredom

#

Picture living forever and nothing being a challenge, except for facing each other and trying to mess with Nirn

zinc wigeon
#

100%

#

Think sheogorath

brave shoal
#

Man i'm bored again. What do you want to do then my Lord? Oh i dunno....steal the dog of clavicus? You did it last week and it ended badly when the dog biten you my Lord. Oh right...right....i know! I'll invade mundus again! third time the charm right? Yes my lord, i'll prepare the troops

brisk perch
#

Uncle Sheo, take me with you, please, I want to be with the butterflies

obtuse summit
uncut hatch
uncut hatch
brave shoal
#

i assume clavicus and his dog specifically do anything only to trigger my ptsd from skyrim. tried to get the dog and permanent immortal companion, gone mad with barking dog always blocking my ways in every dungeon. then when i play eso, he back to betray me like twice or something and i'm like nope, not following you and run away

solid path
#

I found Barbas kept making me steal things by nudging me just as I'm about to talk to the shop keeper so I click on shop goods rather than the shop owner.

#

😦

brave shoal
#

though i admit i loved the moment i ruined barbas's plan and he got reprimended by clavicus, then one second after clavicus snap at me for daring ruin his plan lol

uncut hatch
#

(Why did my gif stop working…)

#

There we go

brave shoal
#

i think i need a flamethrower...

obtuse summit
#

i can give you scroll of fireball

uncut hatch
#

Barbas would probably eat the fireball tbh

robust lintel
#

Fetch

uncut hatch
#

What an Ovidian abomination :P

timber bough
#

animorphs

robust lintel
#

So are Snow Elves the Christmas Elves, or are they in Atmora?

uncut hatch
#

you mean the old life festival?

#

those are the aldmer

#

so aldmer are the Christmas elves

long burrow
#

I thought falmer were

dusky scaffold
#

They Snow Elves (known as Falmer in Aldmeris) were a race of elves who lived in Skyrim prior and during the nords' arrival from Atmora. They have been at war with the nords after the Night of Tears of Saarthal (possibly even before), and were beaten back by the nords. most of the snow elves sought refuge with the Dwemer, who slowly poisoned them and twisted them into the degenerate race we see in skyrim. A few of the original snow elves have survived in secluded places like the Forgotten Vale.

nimble radish
#

what are y’all’s thoughts on the dwenmer going poof

dusky scaffold
#

My thoughts?
"poof"

uncut hatch
plain ibex
quartz shuttle
robust lintel
#

It was one of those "now or never" moments.

dusky scaffold
uncut hatch
#

There's one theory that I tend believe is that the Dwemer transcended the physical plane using the Calling as they had been researching it and some of Snow Elves also transcended and became Wisp Mothers. And Wisp Mothers do have some elven features.

quartz shuttle
#

Personally i prefer the Golden Skin explanation

pastel sorrel
#

Seems more they're some kind of nature spirit, or otherwise some kind of spirits unconnected to the Falmer and Dwemer.

uncut hatch
#

wisp mothers are probably something similar to nereids

#

or nymphs

#

are nymphs still canon?

pastel sorrel
#

There's nothing actually connecting them to any mer beyond having mer-like features, which many primordial beings do since that's where the mer get their features from

#

They may be ehlnofey remnants for all we know.

uncut hatch
#

ya never know with tes

frigid willow
#

They could also be none of those things.

plain ibex
nocturne ravine
#

Dwemer invented space flight and left tamriel ages ago, and they're a playable race in starfield?

obtuse summit
#

according falion, dwemer stuck on oblivion but we cannot take any npc talks as truth. I believe something like arniel experiment happen and their shade bonded on numidium but how its affected only just 1 race is beyond me.

frigid willow
#

They were and are the only race to master tonal manipulation,their capabilities are well beyond any other race's understanding.

brisk perch
obtuse summit
#

then divath fyr confirmed alive then when red year happens.

brisk perch
#

TBH, time travel is also possible with the dwemer technology, so who knows

sleek grove
#

Falion could of been talking about Yagrum yee, he isn't specific, just in his claims on you talking about the cure to Vampirism

obtuse summit
#

i dont remember he talking about dwemer or dwemers 🤔

obtuse summit
sleek grove
#

Personally I don't see why he'd lie since he's a expert conjurer and is raising a girl

#

Yagrum is in Legends I think but idk the capacity. Whether or not he's just a card or is in a story

brisk perch
#

"I know many things. I have studied things beyond the reach of most humans, traveled the Oblivion planes, seen things one should not see. I have met Daedra and Dwemer and everything in between and I know enough to see a vampire where others would see a man."

obtuse summit
#

yeah, he probably talk about yagrum and mistaken divath fyr as daedra lol

uncut hatch
obtuse summit
brisk perch
#

It's easy to meet daedra, coming out of it alive or not wishing you were dead is another thing entirely

sleek grove
#

Also I don't think Fyr would perish in the Red Year, he's way powerful. He'd take Yagrum with him too since Bagarn is one of Fyr's most treasured collections

#

He has a Dwemer, that's alot

obtuse summit
#

according legends, one of her daughter-wives still alive tho.

sleek grove
#

I'd love to see them both again at some point. Fyr and Yagrum

#

If Fyr collected Gelebor imagine that

#

He'd have a Dwarf and a Snow Elf

brisk perch
#

If the Aurbus is a wheel that is spinning, who is the hamster that keeps it spinning?

rocky lion
uncut hatch
#

:O

#

O really?

#

Space flight?

#

Seriously, space flight?

obtuse summit
#

depend what you call "space", is this aetherius or oblivion?

uncut hatch
#

I have no idea @rocky lion just mentioned it

obtuse summit
#

well, in ESO we visit the moons tho

#

CMIIW

uncut hatch
#

There’s khajiit ruins up there 😺

#

Cats on the moon!

#

Just as prophesied in the moon-stretch

rocky lion
#

aetherius

#

imperials have the battlespires
the high elves have the sunbirds
whatever the heck sotha has
khajiit have their ultimate technique of take a ton of drugs and teleport and the moon lattice things

uncut hatch
#

So who is winning the space race?

rocky lion
#

magnus

uncut hatch
#

What did the Magnus do?

rocky lion
#

well he kinda left and left a giant 3 dimensional hole that alot of magic comes from

obtuse summit
#

the hole we call the sun

rocky lion
#

you can see it if you stare into the sky during the daytime

#

and his followers can be seen st night

uncut hatch
#

So he just stepped off into another universe or rather another Warp?

rocky lion
#

he goftod when he saw what making mortals would cost

#

he went past aetherius

uncut hatch
#

Into?

#

The Void or the Greensleeve or...?

rocky lion
uncut hatch
# rocky lion

Gotta love how the shivering isles is literally just a island in space

obtuse summit
#

but weird enough, why auri-el is also called the god of sun.

uncut hatch
#

Basically the Magnus went into the greater universe of which Aetherius is a pocket universe?

uncut hatch
uncut hatch
#

This picture is fake because we all know Mundus is a wheel that turns into a tower on its side

#

Oh!

#

So Magnus went into Anu or Padomay which is Aurbis basically?

#

But what lies beyond Aurbis?

obtuse summit
#

the dreamer reality

uncut hatch
#

Are there any account of people going there?

obtuse summit
#

dwemer probably lol

#

well that's just theory, unless its happen on game is not true.

uncut hatch
signal raptor
#

Language 🤦

obtuse summit
#

Reading faction skyrim, there's called Agents of the Black Marsh faction. i recall there's no argonian enemy 🤔

uncut hatch
#

Impressively gloriously thrillseeking heads, I mean @signal raptor

obtuse summit
#

and agents of the black marsh is enemy with argonian in riften

uncut hatch
obtuse summit
#

the one with lexicon

#

cut content?

uncut hatch
#

That quest did feel unfinished…

gaunt bear
obtuse summit
obtuse summit
frigid willow
#

Could the Numedian use it's power to make itself even bigger?

#

Like go go gadget extendo limbs

rocky lion
#

the numidium can scream and be a grumpy boi and erase things

frigid willow
#

Can it talk ?

obtuse summit
#

maybe using some tonal magic language ? 😄

frigid willow
#

I mean you just described how the Thuum works.

#

Shouts use sound to alter reality in various ways. Even the basic ones like fire breath create something from nothing, unlike spells like Flames which convert magicka into whatever.

rocky lion
#

shouts are tonal magic

frigid willow
#

Yes

#

Dragons and the dwemer are the only two races with widespread usage of tonal magic.

#

And only Dragons have it naturally

#

There's no real evidence of this but it's possible the dwemer studied that dragon in blsckreach specifically because dragons use a form of tonal magic.

pastel sorrel
# uncut hatch Basically the Magnus went into the greater universe of which Aetherius is a pock...

Aetherius not a pocket, it's the centerpoint of creation, one of the major realms of the Aurbis. Another is Oblivion, a terminus that creation crashed upon. Situated metaphysically in between is the Mundus. Magnus bailed out from the Mundus, he and his followers tearing open portals leading back to Aetherius. That picture linked is only a layman's depiction from the perspective of the Mundus.

pastel sorrel
uncut hatch
#

I guess I was operating from a Copernician perspective haha

uncut hatch
pastel sorrel
#

daedra haven't gone past either

#

At least, not that anybody knows of

#

the Aurbis is the entire known universe. What lies beyond the known is, tautologically, unknown.

uncut hatch
#

All right then

#

That figures then - How does the Warp affects Aurbis then?

pastel sorrel
#

... what is the Warp you're talking about?

uncut hatch
#

Warp in the West

pastel sorrel
#

in almost no way whatsoever, that's local to Nirn

uncut hatch
#

7 different realities really

pastel sorrel
#

specifically High Rock

uncut hatch
pastel sorrel
#

Time did a local oopsy because of the Numidium and multiple timelines broke off until they were later mended and brought to a compromise

pastel sorrel
uncut hatch
#

Ah ok - so if i went into this High Rock region then I'm restricted to one reality or by walking into it, I'm split into 7 different versions?

pastel sorrel
#

The Warp's over already

#

It was a brief event

uncut hatch
#

So basically a spacetime burp?

pastel sorrel
#

Of sorts. Everyone ended up in pocket timelines conquering all their foes, so a compromise between the conflicting timelines was just "alright, everyone won but their resulting territory still only goes so far"

#

or what was left of the territory since swathes were scarred by the fighting

#

Dozens of kingdoms consolidated into a handful of major ones

uncut hatch
#

So a mutual sort of spacetime burp that is phantomic to others who doesn't share that burp but real to those who briefly shared it?

pastel sorrel
#

I'm not sure what you're trying to say

#

It was a physical event, those timelines all occurred simultaneously, it would've been an outright mess to be a part of and it left its mark on the land and people

#

The mess was just local to the Iliac Bay where it occurred (so correction, part of High Rock, part of Hammerfell), everyone outside enjoyed nice stable time as usual.

uncut hatch
#

Ah ok that helps. I understand now

#

Does this affect any royal lineages outside High Rock? After all a lot of the characters in Daggerfall were mainly royal or powerful people

#

and the monarchy in England IRL has a lot of relatives all over Europe and Americas

pastel sorrel
#

Oh it probably made big a mess of things they had to then deal with, but that's not really gone into.

uncut hatch
#

They'd probably handwave that as an equivalent of Habsburgs lol

timber bough
#

I hope they won't resolve Skyrim's civil war with another dragonbreak tbh

uncut hatch
#

But not really in a weird way or is it a weird way?

pastel sorrel
#

there's no reason they'd need a dragon break for it

timber bough
pastel sorrel
#

they've relied on it a grand total of once, the Warp in The West, and they were only in that corner to begin with because they had no idea they were gonna still have jobs post-TES2 so they just went with having multiple endings for it

uncut hatch
pastel sorrel
#

And they then fleshed out the concept in the lore further with stuff like the Middle Dawn, the Red Moment, etc.

#

Realistically they can have an Imperial victory with a proper legion marching up like Tullius wanted, but he and Ulfric are both killed and Elisif legally declares independence to soothe the fighting.

#

Maintaining good relations with the Empire in the process.

timber bough
#

Yeah I don't see the Empire ever willingly give up on Skyrim, without it it consists of a grand total of Cyrodiil and High Rock

pastel sorrel
#

It doesn't have a choice

timber bough
#

Maybe Bethesda decides to set TES 6 right in the 2nd Great War which would kinda make explaining the Skyrim Civil War needless, but we'll see

uncut hatch
#

were ther ever any empires before the current Empire?

pastel sorrel
#

it can't afford to fight all of Skyrim, it's just the Civil War issue all over again

timber bough
pastel sorrel
#

Just speaking of the Empires of Men, this is the third, initially formed by Tiber Septim.

uncut hatch
#

Any equivalent of the Qin or Roman Empires in sheer scope and glory?

pastel sorrel
#

Second (Reman) and Third Empires.

#

Especially the latter, since at its height it controlled all of Tamriel, the Second only got most of it.

timber bough
pastel sorrel
#

and the First was mainly just Cyrodiil and a bit of outlying territory as it tried to conquer out, proceeding to get its teeth kicked in at High Rock.

uncut hatch
#

Any games ever covered these empires or do all the games only cover this Empire?

pastel sorrel
timber bough
#

ESO kinda shows the remnants of Reman's Empire/the Potentate but understandably in an extremely contracted form

timber bough
pastel sorrel
uncut hatch
#

Cool, what does the current Empire call themselves at present?

pastel sorrel
pastel sorrel
#

Empires IRL don't typically have special names outside of maybe certain formalities. When you're in the Empire, you know what the Empire is.

#

and there's only one Empire in Tamriel at this time.

timber bough
uncut hatch
pastel sorrel
timber bough
#

It doesn't really have a formal name, just "the Empire" really

pastel sorrel
uncut hatch
#

Is there any dominant culture within the Empire

timber bough
#

It's not a situation like irl in Europe where you had two realms claiming to be the Empire (Holy Roman Empire vs Byzantine/Eastern Roman Empire)

uncut hatch
#

Ok

pastel sorrel
#

The Empire spans multiple provinces

#

even as decayed as it is in TES5's time

#

the closest thing to a "dominant" culture would be the Imperials themselves, but the other provinces still have their own cultures, influenced as they are by the Imperials.

uncut hatch
#

So basically a tributes and we'll leave you alone sort of empire?

#

Or a taxation-based sort of empire that deals in trade

pastel sorrel
#

Pay your taxes and allow Imperial outposts in your territory and you won't have too much to deal with

#

Some provinces got better deals than others. Morrowind and Hammerfell were able to negotiate for much more autonomy than the others who were instead conquered.

#

Hammerfell due to the events of TESA: Redguard which sparked an uprising, Morrowind since the Tribunal gave Tiber Septim the Numidium and means of building a Mantella to power it.

#

Hence why Morrowind still had legal slavery in TES3's time despite it being banned everywhere else.

sharp lantern
#

Most provinces also got a lot of newfound autonomy following the War of the Red Diamond.

uncut hatch
#

Is there a brewing nostalgic movement within the decaying Empire to return to a perceived "lost glory" or a lost "utopic empire better than this one?"

pastel sorrel
#

probably

uncut hatch
#

Like a sort of yearning towards the 2nd Empire or whatever?

pastel sorrel
#

It's kind of on its last legs right now. It'll be around to fight the AD in the next Great War, but it's unlikely to last past that.

#

There'd be more of a yearning for the TEM's own early days. It ruled all of Tamriel and maintained the closest thing to peace the land's ever known.

timber bough
#

I wonder if Bethesda will ever resurrect the original plot idea for Skyrim (Uriel V returning from Akavir) to save the Empire for future entries

pastel sorrel
#

I say closest thing because it still had plenty of problems and was forever bursting apart at the seams hoping for the slightest provocation to fight itself (see: events of the Imperial Simulacrum), but it held together reasonably well as far as Tamriel's typically used to.

uncut hatch
#

This does mean a good plot for TES6 I guess though

pastel sorrel
#

The SEM only really lasted a few generations and never quite reached the heights of the TEM's rule. And the FEM is... tricky. The Alessian Order was objectively horrid and a bastardization of everything Alessia stood for, but it also lasted for two millennia and planted the seeds of many aspects of Imperial culture that are still around in the modern day.

uncut hatch
#

Urial V returning from akavir is a dummy plot tbh

sharp lantern
pastel sorrel
# sharp lantern What makes you say that? Prior to the Concordat the Empire was pretty stable, th...

It's lost most of its land and political reputation, it has to deal with whatever tributes it pays to the AD as part of the Concordat, the Thalmor are guaranteed to be doing everything they can get away with to undermine the Empire further so they're hamstrung when the next war inevitably comes around, there's enough political discord that at least one if not more members of the Elder Council conspired to have Titus II murdered, that's just off the top of my head

#

the Septim days, these are not. The Great War and its consequences have done a royal number on the Empire, let alone the losses it incurred beforehand.

#

Even Tiber says it himself in TES3 that the Empire's coming to an end, and possibly for the best.

#

The Medes have done their best to keep it going, but it's kind of not holding together so well anymore.

sharp lantern
#

Most of that cannot be attributed to the Medes though. Morrowind and Black Marsh seceded in the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis and the Red Year, Summerset, Valenwood, and even Elsweyr left before the Medes could consolidate their power. It's more or less implied that at least Hammerfell and possibly High Rock also seceded before Mede took the throne. By the time Mede had stabalized what remained of the Empire, it was little more than Skyrim and Cyrodiil.

pastel sorrel
#

I never said it was the fault of the Medes

sharp lantern
#

Also, there isn't a source stating that the tributes, part of the ultimatum, were also part of the Concordat. The Thalmor may be trying to do whatever they can to undermine the Empire, but what makes you think the Empire isn't doing the same thing to the Dominion?

pastel sorrel
#

Again, the Great War's consequences broke stuff on top of what had already broke before

pastel sorrel
uncut hatch
#

How does the Thalmor in Skyrim play into that cascade of decay?

sharp lantern
#

As for the assassination of Mede - according to Motierre it's for the good of the Empire, and he has little to no motivation to lie to an assassin who doesn't care about the moral justifications of the act.

pastel sorrel
sharp lantern
#

Wulf also mentioned a change in rulership - not an end to the Empire itself. He only said the Empire was getting old, whereas he specifically says he wondered how much longer the Emperor will hang on. He's talking about a ''need for a change'' which ''could be messy'', that change has occured during the Stormcrown Interregnum.

pastel sorrel
#

Wulf specifically mentions the Empire alongside the Emperor; both were getting old, and change was needed.

sharp lantern
pastel sorrel
uncut hatch
#

Clever and brassy divide and conquer

sharp lantern
sharp lantern
pastel sorrel
#

Something young and new.

sharp lantern
#

And after the death of the Septims, what happened? Secessions of many provinces.

#

Are the Medes not ''something young and new''?

pastel sorrel
#

Yes, and rapid decay of the Empire itself until now it's left with just Cyrodiil itself, High Rock because of course High Rock, and only potentially Skyrim anymore.

sharp lantern
#

And?

pastel sorrel
#

On top of failing to defend itself properly which is why the AD was able to march straight in and take the Imperial City, an overall decline in international alliance since Tullius is literally the bare minimum they could be bothered sending up (and he does the job admirably until Alduin shows up and ruins everything, but he was hoping to have a legion sent up with him)

#

The Medes aren't something young and new, they're just another set of rulers trying to hold onto a declining empire.

#

the Empire's still an old dog, and it's not learning new tricks.

sharp lantern
#

The AD being as successful as it was was a direct result of many wars that the Legion had been involved in just before the Great War broke out. The Dominion literally overestimated the strength of the Empire, that's why they had such an easy time.

#

The Medes definitely are something ''young and new'', 200 years have passed since the collapse of the Septim Dynasty, if Wulf was speaking about both the Empire and the Emperor falling, then the Empire would already be gone.

pastel sorrel
#

Cyrodiil hadn't been at war for nearly two centuries by the time of the Great War

sharp lantern
#

Tell that to Legate Rikke.

#

Unless the wars that she and Galmar fought in, by her own statement, are just fake news.

#

Or unless you want to claim that Galmar kept fighting for the Legion after the Concordat was signed, which seems unlikely given how much he hates the thing.

pastel sorrel
#

You're assuming the wars were in Cyrodiil specifically. Skyrim's no stranger to its own wars, and Rikke and Galmar are both Nords stationed in Skyrim.

sharp lantern
#

Rikke and Galmar were also both Legionnaires.

pastel sorrel
#

Cyrodiil's got its own local forces it's supposed to have, but there was basically nobody there.

sharp lantern
#

They fought in many wars together - clearly prior to the Great War, and the Empire's Generals warned Mede of its military weakness. 2 + 2 = 4. The Empire's armed forces weren't up to par as a result of said wars.

pastel sorrel
#

So say that's the case, it's still not really the whole picture. Even the text you're referencing calls out that the Empire was a pale shadow of the Septim days, having lost so much land in the last century and a half

#

Even beyond whatever forces may've been involved in wars, there's also the issue of it just not having access to all those foreign forces anymore. Even the orsimer are barely in the Legion if Tullius's lot are anything to go by, you used to have a whole bunch practically lining up for service.

sharp lantern
#

And? Again, that's the result of the chaos left by the end of the Septims and the Stormcrown Interregnum. It means nothing for the current status of the Empire.

pastel sorrel
#

It absolutely does, since it's the mess Titus II's inherited and it hasn't gotten any better

sharp lantern
#

Orcs are still plentiful in the Legion, as speaking to the Orcs throughout Skyrim makes pretty clear.

pastel sorrel
#

Again, it's not that the blame lies on Titus II himself, it's that the entire thing's still declined and there's no sign of it getting any better. He was dealt a bad hand.

sharp lantern
#

Also ''foreign forces'', like which? The only peoples to have really made up large numbers in Legion service were Imperials, Nords, and Orcs.

pastel sorrel
#

Right, for their typical standing forces. Since they haven't exactly had to deal with a situation like the AD invading.

#

Having everyone on board to send additional troops would've made for a far different Great War.

sharp lantern
#

Typical standing forces? The Empire commands the Legions, not the forces of the individual Kingdoms of High Rock, not of the Great Houses of Morrowind, not of the Crowns, nor the Forebears.

#

Any sort of aid of that nature is willing aid, not forced.

pastel sorrel
#

I didn't say it commanded those foreign forces, jesus christ. My point is they would've been at least available to request aid.

#

Hire them as auxiliary mercs if need be, but at least there's be the potential for more forces if the war was that serious.

sharp lantern
#

You don't need to be part of the Empire for that. The Dominion doesn't pose a real threat to Black Marsh or Morrowind, not that they'd have much to spare anyway. Hammerfell is already going to be fighting the Dominion in the next war out of self interest, so what is the Empire ''missing'' here?

pastel sorrel
#

The Dominion doesn't pose an immediate threat to either, but the Altmer and Dunmer are still rivals.

#

The issue's more Morrowind's not particularly on speaking terms with the Empire either if DB's anything to go by.

sharp lantern
#

They might be, they might not be. Summerset went through a pretty major cultural crisis in the Third Era, and with the Thalmor not being too shy in using Daedra for their own purposes, odds are that Morrowind is way down on the list of the Dominion.

pastel sorrel
#

We've seen a grand total of one higher-up doing it in relative secrecy; if he was discovered by the general public, even fellow hardliners would tear him apart themselves.

sharp lantern
#

But, again, as said Morrowind doesn't have much to offer anyway. It's still rebuilding. There are still Argonians within its borders, and while they don't hold as much as they did during the Red Year, they still hold territory.

pastel sorrel
#

Especially those still alive from the time of the Oblivion Crisis

#

Altmer and their long memories, after all.

sharp lantern
#

Yes, like the memories of the Thalmor playing a majro rol

#

*major role in Summerset not falling to Dagon's forces.

pastel sorrel
#

the Thalmor playing a supposed major role in rallying against Dagon's forces doesn't mean they'll be excused if found meddling with those same forces. The Altmer are fundamentally opposed to the daedra for a multitude of reasons, it's individual exceptions who dare to dabble with them.

sharp lantern
#

Altmer society went through a major cultural crisis in the Third Era.

#

You can't just say that their old values in regards to the Daedra are still around.

#

At best they'd be uneasy about it, but they wouldn't lift a damn finger with the Thalmor still in charge.

pastel sorrel
#

The Thalmor are explicitly hardliners, appealing to the existing cultural values but turned quite up to 11. Nothing that they've indicated in general is out of character for the Altmer, all we've seen is specific exceptions that've stayed under wraps for good reason.

sharp lantern
#

If you ignore one of their Commanders having pact with two Daedric Princes, sure, then nothing is ''out of character''.

pastel sorrel
#

i literally said "all we've seen are specific exceptions"

#

i wasn't ignoring anything, you didn't read that part.

#

There's nothing saying the Thalmor are generally anything more than Altmer trying to be even more Altmer than the rest of the Altmer, and you'll always have those occasional individuals doing stuff different on the down-low. That doesn't mean that would ever be accepted in public, especially not after the Oblivion Crisis.

sharp lantern
#

Of course, it's clearly Altmer culture to hunt down dissidents, even if they go to foreign lands.

pastel sorrel
#

I mean, kinda, yeah?

sharp lantern
#

When have the Altmer ever hunted down political rivals?

#

Throughout their history, political rivals were exiled not hunted down and murdered.

pastel sorrel
#

It's them being more proactive about dealing with hulkynd and ousters and whatever that third word is i'm clean forgetting. They haven't always been the kindest to them at the best of times.

sharp lantern
#

Also, getting rid of the rightful Kings and Queens of the Altmer? That sure sounds like a true ''traditional'' Altmer worldview.

pastel sorrel
#

I can very easily see hardline Altmer wanting to just purge the mutated and non-praxic than tolerate them.

sharp lantern
#

Point is that we do not know the Thalmor's view on Daedra worship. If they support it, then any (open) dissidents to said policy would've been ''silenced''. If they oppose it, then Naarifin would've been incredibly good at hiding his Daedric Artifacts. Ultimately, it doesn't matter because we do not know.

pastel sorrel
#

Really, of all the words to censor, bot?

#

The Thalmor are non-subtly coded as a certain German political party from a while back, and that's on top of the Altmer culturally not being the fondest of that which Doesn't Fit™️ ethnically or behaviourally

#

It's also nearly 5AM for me and i need to get to bed just in time to get maybe 5 hours of sleep

sharp lantern
#

Oof, get some sleep.

#

We'll pick this up later.

uncut hatch
#

Good night all of you!

#

I will well need my sleep soon too

vague flame
timber bough
#

Daedric princes are deities, but them refusing to worship Talos doesnt mean they'd worship Daedra as a substitute

sharp lantern
# vague flame The only god they dont worship is talos. They dont regard him as a God. So by th...

A key part in the traditional Altmer faith is that Daedra worship is heresy - that's also why Saint Veloth led the Chimer to Resdayn, so they could worship the Daedra. The Ayleids had a somewhat similar ordeal according to sources. We don't know whether or not the Thalmor openly embrace the Daedra, but we don't have anything to say that they don't either. The fact that Lord Naarifin had pacts with two Daedric Princes has its implications, though.

#

I don't recall Thalmor necromancers, but it wouldn't surprise me. At least, if performed on the ''lesser'' races.

vague flame
quartz shuttle
sharp lantern
#

Do they? I only recall them summoning Atronachs.

quartz shuttle
#

Actually... now that you mention it, i don't recall many instances of Raise Dead in Skyrim,outside of that one cave with the necromancers..

sharp lantern
#

Necromancy is legal throughout the Empire anyway. Even if shunned by most people and banned by one of its magical institutions.

vague flame
#

I havent played anything newer then skyrim cause I didn't have internet forever. But yeah when you go to the thalmor base up north to rescue the greymaine guy. The thalmor up there used raise zombie every time I went there

sharp lantern
#

You don't happen to be playing with mods?

vague flame
#

I didnt have internet for like 10 years.

#

But when I let my son put the Xbox in his room a month ago he went nuts with mods

topaz dome
vague flame
#

Oh I never even left helgen unless I was level 5. I would put a rubber band on my controller and walk into a wall by the sleeping bear near the exit. And shoot the guy your with with my bow until I ran out of arrows and then I would hit him with weapons the whole time

#

I wouldnt even leave whiterun until I got my smiting to 100 by hinting deer and wolves and the giants

floral light
#

Altmer literally believe the Aedra are their ancestors, while the Daedra are not, it's very deeply ingrained in their culture, Legends should always be taken with a whole handful of salt as it tends to be very basic in it's writing and design with minimal regard for the canon of the series, preferring to lean into more generic fantasy tropes and writing designing ect more like they are working on a lord of the rings game then a TES one,

sharp lantern
#

''minimal regard for the canon of the series'', bruh which game in the franchise has had a higher regard?

#

The only bit of lore that Legends retcons is that Mede himself led the charge of the Imperial City wielding Goldbrand, barring that, it has only added new lore.

dusky scaffold
#

It's not really a retcon, even in Legends lore everyone believes that it was mede leading the assault

quartz shuttle
#

Legends goes out of its way to try to be relevent, degrades both Mede and Boethiah, and honestly i would like notbing more than a quest to hunt down that moth priest and execute him to treason

#

The expansions aren't bad, but holy crap, its main story is trash

dusky scaffold
#

that does not make it untrue, or a retcon, or lore-breaking

quartz shuttle
#

No, but it does make it dumb as a post

#

The idea that the Dominion, an authoritarian nation that had spent a century preparing for war, needed a magical macguffin to outmaneuver a Empire which hadn't fought a war in 4 generation, is just plain stupid

signal raptor
#

Let's keep it civil please.

quartz shuttle
#

Sorry.

frigid willow
#

Civil War!

quartz shuttle
#

The civil war is more thought out than Legends.

zinc wigeon
#

The civil war is so one sided lmao

quartz shuttle
#

The Empire, being a diminishing power that hasn't seen a war in 2 lifetimes of its major populations, struggling to fend off a surprise attack from a rising power of longer lived peoples woth living military veterans who have been activrly preparing for war, makes perfect sense.

#

No magical macguffin needed.

#

The plot of Legends makes everyone involved, Empire and Dominion both, loon like fumbling morons

frigid willow
#

Even if the storm cloaks win now the empire still has troops to send and if by some miracle the cloaks win in the long term the dominon will be ready to take advantage of a weary and brow beaten skyrim and empire.

quartz shuttle
#

The Stormcloaks hinge on the hope that tbe Empire won't pull forces off the Dominion border.

timber bough
#

I think Skyrim's civil war makes sense in so far as medieval civil was are concerned, where it was often realms falling into infighting mainly because of personal differences and someone trying to press a claim over someone else

#

Ulfric wants to rule, and he wants to fight for it, and he's found a way to inspire people to join his cause

frigid willow
#

Also consider the civil issues that would arise from a Stormcloak victory.

quartz shuttle
#

Oh, the Stormcloaks are doomed to civil war regardless. The disposed Jarls and their loyalists aren't just going to go away

frigid willow
#

Skyrim might end up breaking down into a second civil war between Ulfric loyal jarls and elisif loyal jarls.

#

This of course doesn't even touch on Skyrim's other problems. I mean do you think the Foresworn won't take advantage of the situation?

To say nothing of even with Alduin dead the dragons present a very real long-term threat. They are nigh immortal and ageless beings who relish power.

#

oh and the Falmer are planning something too and that can't be good.

#

Of course all of this is equally true if the imperials win.

Ulfric becomes a martyr and his loyalist jarls are still fairly influential even after losing their thrones.

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah, Skyrim is screwed. The Empire may be able to exert some form of stability if it wins, bjt will be contendjng with Stormcloaks for years.

If Ulfric wins, Skyrim is going to come apart at the seams

frigid willow
#

Even if the empire wins those other problems still exist and without pulling forces from the border the empire probably can't deal with those issues while holding skyrim.

quartz shuttle
#

The other problems are likely to be less severe under the Empire. They've already shown to be more accomodating ti the Reachmen, and they fully accept the issues with the disposed jarls

#

The Falmer of course...

mellow grotto
#

Additionally there's also the magic anomalies from the Eye of Magnus, and we have no idea what long-term ramifications they could have. There's also the zombie attacks from Plague of the Dead, which could run the risk of turning Skyrim into a zombie apocalypse hellhole.

frigid willow
#

The only solution to the falmer issue is extermination

#

Dragons could potentially be reasoned with, the Reachmen can too.

quartz shuttle
#

Unlikely to be possible

frigid willow
#

Just start collapsing dwemer ruins.

quartz shuttle
#

Because of Blackreach and the cavern networks, exterminating the Falmer is probably not possible

frigid willow
#

(I'm kidding)

quartz shuttle
#

Too much area to cover, too many ways in and out

#

Better solution would be ti try to find a way to pacify them

frigid willow
#

That would require understanding what they are now and with the dwemer long gone we may never know exactly how they were altered. It's not like they're up for a polite chat.

quartz shuttle
#

It would not be easy, no

#

But even goblins can be domesticated.

frigid willow
#

I'm trying to figure out a way to say this

sand flume
frigid willow
#

Goblins want things.
They are willing to kill to get those things.
But if they don't have to kill to get things they usually don't.

sand flume
#

some enslaved goblins actually end up with some really rough trauma

frigid willow
#

Falmer on the other hand seem hostile for its own sake.
They even keep slaves so it's not like they aren't intelligent.

#

They have some kind of society, they've built structures, domesticated charus and forged weapons and armor.
So their hostility isn't born of a lack of intelligence.

quartz shuttle
#

Slavery, regardless of its reasoning, isn't something I'd honestly support

#

But the Falmeri hostility does seem to be born out of a general lack of higher intelect for the most part.

frigid willow
#

Nor I but it does suggest some kind of organization in the way they live.

quartz shuttle
#

You do see more intelligence of those who live above ground, impkying that the source is something in their environment, but even the writing we find shows a lack more complex reasoning.

#

Its developing, but not quite there yet.

#

They likely keep slaves because they offer labour, like a domesticated animal

frigid willow
#

Now we do see most falmer while we're actively trespassing on what is essentially their territory. With the dwemer gone the falmer have most claim to the dwemer ruins.

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah, so it is possible that they won't be too too much of a problem, so long as you don't tressoass on their tereitory

frigid willow
#

But we also know they tunnel into caves in order to expand. That's a problem.

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah

frigid willow
#

How are you meant to avoid a territory whose borders are always changing in ways you can't measure?

quartz shuttle
#

You capture a few alive, and study them

#

But most of Skyrim still thinks the Falmer are a myth, sooo

#

They are the Skaven of the Elderscrolls world

frigid willow
#

That might help with their anatomy but it doesn't tell you if they're planning to tunnel into your basement next week.

quartz shuttle
#

No, but it does give you a chamce to study their intelligence and whether or not they can be reasoned with

frigid willow
#

True.
I'm leaning towards a no though.

quartz shuttle
#

The answer is definitely a Yes. However, the question is whether it's like negotiating with a tribe of Goblins, or domesticating a Troll

frigid willow
#

Domestication isn't an act of reasoning. You aren't bargaining in the sense that say a non aggression pact would require.

zinc wigeon
#

The civil war is either
A:Side with the racists
Or
B: Quell the people causing unnecessary civil unrest because they're racist

mellow grotto
# sand flume zombies in cyrodiil didnt turn it into a zombie apocalypse hellhole

Because there was no uncontrollable zombie pandemic there. Plague of the Dead establishes that necromancers tried to summon an army of zombies from all over Skyrim, which backfired horribly. This then causes hoards of zombies to attack travelers at night, including TLD. Like the magical ruptures from the Eye of Magnus, there's no telling what long-term ramifications this has on Skyrim.

obtuse summit
#

Is adventurer can be mentioned as a job like farmer, fisherman or etc? is there kinda adventurer guild or sort of organization?

slender latch
slender latch
frigid willow
#

Have you tried mercenary work? It might suit you.

#

Adventurers are probably considered a kind of mercenary considering how they tend to get paid.

obtuse summit
#

so just fancy word for freelancer eh.

obtuse summit
#

I always think mercenary as a soldier. they deal with violence stuff.

#

but yeah, adventurer could become a mercenary.

frigid willow
#

A mercenary is a soldier for hire but you can usually pay them to do stuff besides kill people.

#

Though tbh the activities you listed will probably require a little killing.

obtuse summit
#

that's why its not weird as adventurer to join all guilds.

frigid willow
#

I mean it is a little weird that you can become as heavily involved as you can.
Jack of all trades, master of none and all that.

obtuse summit
#

The Guild make it easier to get job rather than ask random person.

#

but the payment will get some cut from the guild.

#

ah that make sense why the reward is small for quest guild.

frigid willow
#

Well no it's more like your skill doesn't make much sense.

brave shoal
#

guild are mostly there to give job to their member, being a member make it easy to get a stream of jobs, so i dont see it weird that an adventurer would try to get a feet in multiple guilds if he have the talents for the job each requires and the wills do to them

frigid willow
#

Magic takes a lifetime to truly master and that's with focusing on one school.

A master destruction mage usually isn't also a master conjurer and an alteration expert.

But it's not just magic, any skill set requires a significant investment of time and energy.

#

Yeah I'm not talking about membership I mean advancement.

obtuse summit
#

mastery is kinda different problem, what i meant maybe some connection of people. thief guild know how to get things, mage guild know how to disable things and fighter guild know how to destroy things.

frigid willow
#

In oblivion it's possible to be a guild master or equivalent thereof in every organization you join and it just doesn't make much sense.

obtuse summit
#

for oblivion, its kinda gameplay thing. of course, lore-wise its impossible become guildmaster of multiple guild.

frigid willow
#

Here's the problem.
The time you spend learning one skill set is time not being spent on the other. Player characters are capable of reaching levels of mastery faster than regular people and we rarely have a reason why.

The Dovakihn can master unrelenting force in a few days while Ulfric spent years of his life to learn 1 or 2 words of an incredibly basic application of the thuum. That's the only accelerated learning that has a lore explanation.

#

Its not really feasible for most adventurers to invest time in multiple guilds because at the end of the day a master swordsman will make more money than an average swordsman who can also cast some novice spells.

obtuse summit
#

if adventurers choose to dedicated their life in only a guild, i think they no longer become "freelancer.". they just become a thief, mercenary or mage. then again, is there rule for guild not allowed their member become "freelancer"?

#

I guess that's what rank for. more adventurer dedicated their life to guild, maybe more higher their rank.

#

if you just lower tier member, maybe guild dont mind you join any guild.

frigid willow
#

Well honestly being in a guild at all means they aren't a freelancer.

#

A freelancer is someone who seeks out contracts for work on their own. They don't have a formal employer.

In a guild the guild is your employer.

obtuse summit
#

no, the employers is still common people. the guild just give a medium for common people to seek some expert for a task.

frigid willow
#

A freelancer is an independent laborer who earns wages on a per-job or per-task basis.

The key word is independent, once you've joined a guild you are not an independent contractor.

#

Those common people don't contract with YOU they contract with the guild who then assign you to the job, that's not freelancing.

obtuse summit
#

people will contact the guild to doing some job, the guild seeking member who expert at job. doesn't matter their freelance status or not, cause probably they are the only ones that good for specific task.

frigid willow
#

But that brings up the point.

Adventurers aren't always freelancers.

#

If they work for a guild or other organization they aren't an independent agent.

#

But you can be a mercenary without being a freelancer.

So it's more accurate to categorize adventurers as a kind of mercenary.

obtuse summit
#

It seems in the elder scroll series, the adventurer is the one who come to dangerous places and doing some risky exploration.

#

mercenary,thug and bounty hunter are more personal job like escort or assault people.

ocean brook
#

you have to remember, the player character isn't like most people; they break all limits

#

they're the sort of person who can casually master skills in years or even months that take other people decades

scenic field
#

So is Skyrim, Cyrodiil, and Morrowind actually bigger lore-wise? I always found it interesting that Daggerfall was literally the size of the UK but was that retconnedConfusedPeek

thick plinth
uncut hatch
#

then its just annoying

thick plinth
#

It's still cool even when you play it, it has a lot of opportunities for emergent gameplay

#

That being said, it could be much more fleshed out. But given the year it was made, definitely not possible. There are modern games tbatre in development to fix that though, Wayward Realms for example

uncut hatch
#

good ol wayward realms...

thick plinth
dusky scaffold
thick plinth
#

The red circle shows where the game skyrim's map is on the comparison chart

uncut hatch
thick plinth
#

It's only avoiding the gaps

dusky scaffold
# thick plinth

compared to what?
and why is the Skyrim - TESV Game Scale inside the Daggerfall Map larger?

thick plinth
#

They're the same size

#

And this post-mw compared to Daggerfall/Pre-MW scale

#

We know the exact size for both maps based on the units defined for them

uncut hatch
#

daggerfall's map isn't even immersive. there's no roads connecting places together and its just incoherent to look at so there wasn't a point to make it so big other than "we could, so we did"

#

just because you can make something big, doesn't mean you should. it's like making a sims house on the biggest land you could buy

#

and making the house the size of the land

thick plinth
#

The quest systems take advantage of it's size, even if it's a very shallow job at doing so, it makes a lot more systems feel truly deep

#

Regional banks make sense with large regions. Procedural quests make sense with quantity-dense regions

sharp lantern
#

regional banks

#

Thanks for that loan of a couple million Septims, bank of Wayrest, I'll definitely pay it back and not just buy property elsewhere!

brave shoal
#

the iron bank of wayrest will have its due

uncut hatch
#

gold has weight in daggerfall...

floral light
#

yeesh and i thought the days of ammo having weight were dark,

sharp lantern
uncut hatch
#

oh right...

#

when i first played daggerfall i thought those letters were angry notes telling me i suck because i skipped the message and i had too many letters

#

i thought shops wrote me a message for selling too much

obtuse summit
#

is Kiai using tonal manipulation similar to thu'um ?

ocean brook
#

Kiai?

obtuse summit
#

kinda "magic" used by akaviri

#

something like dragon knight class on ESO probably

ocean brook
#

I'm unfamiliar with ESO, alas

brisk perch
#

I think it was compared to the thu'um with the book, "Children of the Sky"

uncut hatch
#

Sometimes I'll look at modern games and say, "It just doesn't feel that big"

ocean brook
#

beyoind this one mentioin, is there any other niformation about the Kiai in the lore?

obtuse summit
#

I mean akaviri learn this kiai by watching dragon power CMIIW.
technically its sounds similar with shout.

#

or not, probably akaviri just emulate their physical power nor their dragon language 🤔

ocean brook
#

well

#

this boiok was written for Morrowind, right?

#

at the time, the idea of the Shouts being literal words in the dragon tongue was not yet realized; for all we knew, these Shouts were anywhere from inarticulate roars to people just Shouting With Kyne Power, which requires capitalization of coruse

#

so you would have one seemingly random Shouting With Power being compared to another, with the author having no particular understanding of the deeper workings of either

brisk perch
#

The book seems to be a very loose interpretation of the Nords, though to those unaware, a Nord shouting could be genuinely terrifying to others since you might not know if some is going to happen.

timber bough
#

How removed from Tamriel is Akavir in terms of trade and politics? Is it comparable to medieval Europe and medieval China?

uncut hatch
#

I don’t think they trade @-@

desert kayak
#
  • The Dragonborn at the time of his death, when he sees all the daedric princes fighting for who gets his soul
let-them-fight.gif
floral light
#

Then they are all epically peeved when Odhaving swoops in and eats it becoming the new lord of dragons all without having to lift a claw and just waiting for your simple mortal life to end like they always do no matter what tricks you may have tried to cheat it,

desert kayak
#

Wouldn't the Dragonborn's soul reunite with Akatosh when he dies? Since he's got the soul of a dragon, which is a shard of Akatosh?

floral light
#

Unless another dragon who for seemingly no reason installed himself as a friend who would constantly be on call and madeup some drivel about honor to justify getting rid of his boss and putting him in the perfect place to one day become stronger then any other dragon by eating the soul of the person who defeated said boss

desert kayak
#

Eh, I don't think Paarthurnax would do that tbh

floral light
#

I meant Odhaving

obtuse summit
#

being prisoner, TLD are free to choose where they're gone. they could become immortal like demi prince due consuming a lot dragon souls.

#

I don't believe there's no other side effect consuming dragon souls.

pastel sorrel
#

There's no indication that consuming dragon souls gives one immortality

#

Nor do Prisoners necessarily have a choice in where they go in death. They don't even have full choices in life. They just certainly have more capability to choose than most.

desert kayak
#

I could see TLD going to Sovngarde

#

Are only nords allowed in Sovngarde after dying or can anyone who proved themselves go?

pastel sorrel
#

Nothing is said about the player's race while there

#

If someone else is a follower of the Nordic religion, they would probably be just as eligible.

sleek grove
#

The Ebony Warrior wanted to go to Sovngarde but he doesn't end up there if you go to Sovngarde after his defeat. I think anyway

valid kestrel
#

So, let me see if I understand the difference between the Aedra and Daedra. While the Aedra helped create the world, the Daedra were too busy with they little space of oblivion. The Aedra protect people while the Daedra just toy with them, it's correct?

floral light
#

Going to there isn't great anyway as it clearly modifies your personality to ensure you behave,

dusky scaffold
# valid kestrel So, let me see if I understand the difference between the Aedra and Daedra. Whil...

basically, yes. The Aedra gave up themselves in the process to create the Mundus, while the Daedra did not participate in its creation (for reasons we do not know). There's also a third group, the Magna Ge, who initially helped with the creation of the Mundus, but later fled to Aetherius.
As the Daedra didn't give themselves up, they have an agency of their own, which often (but not always) clashes with us mortals. Aedra are much more susceptible to be shaped by the beliefs of the faithful

valid kestrel
frigid willow
#

Talos did not participate in creation but he is still counted among the aedra by humans.

dusky scaffold
#

several entities defy this categorisation. Malacath once was the elven hero Trinimac, Meridia once was a Magna Ge, Arkay is believed to have once been mortal

sand flume
#

auriel was also mortal

#

the important part of being aedra is that their power is now dedicated to sustaining mundus

uncut hatch
#

aedra aren't real

#
  • Mankar maybe
sharp lantern
frigid willow
#

Fair enough.

sand flume
#

if we trust mk lore, he mantled lorkhan, making him aedra

valid kestrel
#

How exactly Talos became a Divine? And with his cult banned, this will weak him?

sand flume
#

how do you mean weak

quartz shuttle
#

The Divines are simply a particular pantheon of gods. You become a Divine by having the Church recognise you as such

sand flume
#

he's as dead as the other aedra

valid kestrel
sand flume
#

if talos had powers why wouldn't he just smite the dominion

#

he wouldn't lose his ability to bless his followers

sleek grove
#

Talos has formed on Nirn after transcendence iirc

sand flume
#

and LHKAN is plenty used to being missing anyways

sleek grove
#

Well Tiber Septim anyway under a alias

#

although idk if it's "confirmed," other than a NPC suggesting it after

frigid willow
#

Death doesn't mean much to a God.

I mean Shor is dead and he's still so powerful we aren't allowed to see him.

timber bough
sleek grove
#

Before the Warp in the West Talos didn't exist? If I'm wrong plz correct me. Heimskr talks about the transcendence iirc which is mk stuff

timber bough
#

besides, Wulf's dialogue is in itself enough to draw that connection

timber bough
sleek grove
#

Ah, my bad then

frigid willow
#

The belief that Talos is a transcended tiber septim is common among humans.
Its the main issue the Thalmor claim to have with talos worship since the other divines are supposed to be the ancestors of the elven races.

gaunt bear
# sand flume if talos had powers why wouldn't he just smite the dominion

Let me try:

During the Warp in the West, when the Underking used the Mantella to grant himself death, Tiber Septim became part of the Oversoul of Lorkhan, since the Anumidium was originally intended to be powered by the Heart of Lorkhan. The question is no longer ‘Is Talos a god?’, rather the question should be ‘Was Talos ever a man?’.

sleek grove
#

Isn't Talos 3 people?

#

The Underking was the last to join, or something. My lore knowledge around that part is rusted, so if I'm off sry lol

timber bough
#

that'd be the enantiomorph, yeah

quartz shuttle
#

Maybe

sharp lantern
sharp lantern
quartz shuttle
#

Could also just be Tiber Septim

sleek grove
#

Only really Hiemskr that mentioned the Talos thing in-universe iirc

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah, we've got more indication of him being a Breton impersonater of an Atmoran than we do of him being 3 people

sharp lantern
#

Him being from Atmora is almost certainly propaganda, since the last shipment from Atmora arrived a couple thousand years before he was born.

#

Him coming from Alcaire also has the most evidence pointing to it - The Arcturian Heresy, Holidays of the Iliac Bay, and dialogue with the Ghost of Old Hroldan all allude to it.

#

Still, his race itself is a matter of debate. He could still be a Nord who was born in High Rock. It's either that, or he was a Breton raised in Skyrim, because to quote the Septim lineage up until Cephorus Septim II: ''For the first time since the beginning of the Dynasty, an Emperor ruled Tamriel who was neither Breton nor had spent any of his childhood in High Rock.''

sharp lantern
sleek grove
#

Tiber got a Legends card iirc but wasn't directly for him which ofc means no race given

#

Which just looks like his Redguard depiction afaik

sharp lantern
sleek grove
#

yeah that one

sharp lantern
#

I don't think that looks like a Redguard

sleek grove
#

No, no. Sry I mean in the game Redguard his depiction

sharp lantern
#

Ahh, like that

uncut hatch
timber bough
#

is that a cap he wears or did his barber have an unfortunate day

uncut hatch
#

thats his hair

#

theres a sketch version of the redguard picture that i think is better quality

sleek grove
#

It's like the Dwemer beanie hat thing?

#

It's on the Dwemer Spector Model, but you can miss it

uncut hatch
sleek grove
#

My guess is it's some hat he wore after conquering Hammerfell. (I think Redguard is after Tiber gained Hammerfell, not sure)

uncut hatch
sleek grove
#

Oh that's much better def

uncut hatch
#

or did he keep his hair in a little hat

sleek grove
#

Seems just short hair and a beard

desert kayak
#

Looks like his hair was swept back and the artists didn't know how to depict it for some reason

timber bough
#

what's the bigger mystery: talos' apotheosis or whatever the hell is going on with his hair in that pic?

desert kayak
#

The latter, obviously

desert kayak
#

Found this pic, might be a good representation of him

b11d76f40660d52c2a5b1bbadffb2bd2.jpg
uncut hatch
#

That’s fan art but ye

#

Still nice

#

In real barenziah he has white hair and blue eyes. I think he’s 80 in that book if my maths adds up but also looked like a very active 50 year old

#

(As we all know, that book is not reliable)

uncut hatch
sleek grove
#

In the Redguard art he has a grey beard but in the Legends art he has a black beard. idk when the Legends art depicts him from, but Redguard idk when it's set, to him conquering all of Tamriel

pastel sorrel
#

His card in Legends

LG-cardart-A_New_Era.png
pastel sorrel
#

Redguard is set a few years beforehand, his conquest was still ongoing and was still trying to hold down Hammerfell.

sleek grove
#

Tiber lived 38 years into the next era right?

uncut hatch
pastel sorrel
uncut hatch
#

Dude finished the Tiber wars at the age of 70

#

Wait wait

pastel sorrel
#

Probably got that Breton blood aging him a little slower

#

Further proof he's a Breto-Nord.

uncut hatch
#

One second no, he was 69 when he united Tamriel cause Tiber decided to start the third Era with a 0

pastel sorrel
#

nice

uncut hatch
#

😎

#

I’m not good at maths

#

We know he lived til 108 which I think is a very good age

sleek grove
#

I think the grey beard in Redguard could be many things including the art being a decade+ apart. Or it depicts him before but they use that for his peak look

uncut hatch
#

Unless I’m remembering that wrong (tbh I hope I am cause I want tes out of my head)

sleek grove
#

Was it true Tiber was not a nice person?

uncut hatch
#

We don’t know 😎

sleek grove
#

Then again no conqueror is nice, looking at Kang from Marvel

uncut hatch
#

Tiber can be whatever you want him to be

sleek grove
#

The Dragonborn, wait

uncut hatch
#

Tiber is a weird vortex of something

brave shoal
#

the rumors of how badly the conquest of khajiit and altmer land have gone seem to say he can be very not nice if i remember

uncut hatch
#

No one really liked him in redguard

sleek grove
#

Do we know what, if any, the damage the Anumidium made with Summerset?

uncut hatch
#

I think some altmer are stuck in space time over there

#

Only alinor was effected

sleek grove
#

Later the Thalmor would rename Summerset to Alinor right?

#

when they regained power ofc

uncut hatch
#

Alinor was the capital but I’m kinda worried what’s happening over there >_>

#

By the time of redguard it wasn’t smashed by numidium just yet

#

Does 3rd pocket guide explain alinor?

quartz shuttle
brave shoal
#

all we know is they removed any record of the numidium assault because of how badly it would damage the reputation of the empire so probably did a serious mess

quartz shuttle
#

If you have any concerns or doubts, feel free to bring them up to your local Commissar

pastel sorrel
sleek grove
#

The Anumidium is known for one thing, well maybe a few but, definitely destruction

quartz shuttle
uncut hatch
uncut hatch
quartz shuttle
#

Not even Japan surrendered that quickly. The use of the Numidium is something that really needs to be emphasized. As a weapon, it is an abomination

uncut hatch
#

I’ll go check

pastel sorrel
#

The PGE3 only very briefly touches upon the conquest of Summerset if that's what you're talking about, going more into the lasting effects of it on its society in general

brave shoal
# quartz shuttle Summerset surrendered after an hour. An. HOUR.

exactly, so whatever destruction it caused, it traumatized/scared the altmer really badly, and must even scared tiber/imperials if they decided to remove any record of what occured just so it didnt ruin the empire's reputation and lead to instability so that say a lot imo

uncut hatch
sleek grove
#

I'd like to see how the Thalmor regained power, that'd be a cool TV series or something

uncut hatch
quartz shuttle
pastel sorrel
#

Alinor's still there

uncut hatch
pastel sorrel
#

As of the PGE3 it'd been over 4 centuries since the siege, remember

brave shoal
#

thalmor probably weaved stories about the horrors tiber did to the altmer in his conquest and gained support with elves nostalgic of their independance and wanting to take a metaphorical stab at the man by making his worship illegal?

quartz shuttle
#

Consider the description of the Dragonbreak after the Numidium was used in Hammerfell. Vast swaths of land left barren, entire armies vanishing

pastel sorrel
#

It's had plenty of time to rebuild whatever was damaged

uncut hatch
#

Yeah but is space time ok over there

#

Eh it’s not important

quartz shuttle
#

Whatever physical damage was done, has probably been long since repaired. But the psychological and emotional scars, that's very different

sleek grove
#

If VI is Hammerfell it'll be the first time since the Warp we'd of seen the iliac bay afaik

brave shoal
#

especially since altmer live for long time, memory wont vanish that fast in there

pastel sorrel
# uncut hatch Yeah but is space time ok over there

Aside from potentially the bubble timeline where the bulk of the siege is actually still ongoing into 5E before finally resolving back in the past, there's no indication of any lasting shenanigans in Alinor. The place was sieged, not destroyed.

uncut hatch
#

It’s been like… 600-700 hundred years since Tiber wars by skyrim… don’t quote me on that my maths is bad

quartz shuttle
#

Imagine it's gaze sweeping over the dock district as it strides through the bay. Rays of light as it's eyes move from street to street, buildings crumbling to dust, people aging thousand sof years and turning to ash in an instant

#

Indiscriminate. Uncaring. 5000 years of history and progress and legitimacy being reduced to nothing, everywhere the Nimidium turned

uncut hatch
pastel sorrel
uncut hatch
#

600 hundred alrighty thank you

sleek grove
#

Sounds about right since ESO is 949 years before Skyrim and Tiber's Conquest began 300 years later

uncut hatch
quartz shuttle
#

And then layer in time-distortions on top of that. Imagine watching your mother die, over and over and over. Echos of her death lingering because that things presence fundamentally damages the flow of time

#

The Numidium is, conceptually, horrific. It's not just a giant golem that kicks down walls, it is an abomination

brave shoal
#

i'm starting to think anything dwemer made can be scary, even the cup and kitchen ustensil i got in my house in eso could have some secret power because they're dwemer /s

sleek grove
#

By design it's a god and powered by the heart of a god

#

Akulakhan was huge, which took from the Anumidium in design. Alduin's wall changed the depiction from Daggerfall to Skyrim

#

Kagrenac's end result is up in the air afaik

pastel sorrel
#

Strictly speaking, TES3 already changed it

#

Akulakhan was made in the Numidium's image

sleek grove
#

ofc yeah, the Akulakhan being built from plans of the Numidium project

#

We see the drawings I think?

uncut hatch
#

Yeee

#

Gotta get that image

sharp lantern
#

Yeah, we can find the plans. They were supposed to even be part of an Imperial Legion quest.

pastel sorrel
sharp lantern
#

But that got scrapped.

uncut hatch
pastel sorrel
#

from the book Divine Metaphysics

sleek grove
#

Wait, was that the book Yagrum partially translated. Or was that Egg of Time

rocky lion
#

thats more a design for akulakhan itself as its taken directly from akulkhans concept art

sharp lantern
#

I thought you'd mean this one.

512.png
uncut hatch
#

O-o

#

Never seen that one

#

God damn what’s wrong with his faaaace

#

He has more of the daggerfall golem’s vibe with the pained expression

sharp lantern
#

Yee

uncut hatch
#

I just realised alduin’s wall numidium also has a similar kind of expression but it’s more skeletal and dead looking

quartz shuttle
#

It's face is also more like the Dwemer scuptures

sleek grove
#

I still wonder who's face the statues and sculptures are of

#

My guess would be Kagrenac or Mzark, but ofc no evidence

#

Mzark because he had a whole tower named after him, if they were a real Dwarf at all

pastel sorrel
#

Or Dumac

sleek grove
#

True yeah

uncut hatch
#

What about the female faces?

quartz shuttle
#

There are no female Dwemer

sleek grove
#

I don't think we've ever seen a female Dwarf

pastel sorrel
#

We haven't

uncut hatch
pastel sorrel
#

Or if we have they were in armor

uncut hatch
#

They breed like spider plants || i just realised I haven’t watered my spider plant’s offspring in weeks||

sleek grove
#

But they most certainly existed, because in Skyrim we see female plated helmets

quartz shuttle
#

Nah, they turn their females into bio-vats for the production of their orgnanic materials

#

Called Axlotl Tanks

uncut hatch
#

Dwemer probably had cloning machines that were just artificial wombs

quartz shuttle
#

Dwemer are Bene Tilaxlu, convince me otherwise

sleek grove
#

plus we have like 3 female Dwemer names in canon afaik

uncut hatch
#

Cloning like modern day cloning. Not fyr cloning

sleek grove
#

Doesn't Fabricant work in the Clockwork City involve growing flesh?

brave shoal
#

or the boring sad true is dwemer society was male dominated and female where stuck behind the scene,at home?

quartz shuttle
#

Most likely, there just hasn't been a need to represent them yet, and no one has invested the effort into designing them

sleek grove
#

I think the only chance to see a female Dwemer in canon would be if art depicts them in a future title, or Spectors return

brave shoal
#

or another boring true, more game design than revealing dwemer society, the dev only had time to make male models and never really felt the need to work on female when they could just reuse male and add a new name for any ghost/background npc for the few time we actually see them

sleek grove
#

Could do it how they did Gelebor, only make what you have too

#

So the race is missing things for any other use beside what they need to show

brave shoal
#

because it may be my personal bias but i like to imagine dwemer society, as advanced as they look like to be somewhat more egalitarian on the role of sexs, why waste potential of half the population kind of thing? but of course, that my personal irl bias entering chat and dwemer could be stuck up with their social customs for all we know

quartz shuttle
#

TES societies in general aren't particularly sexist

#

Racist, yes. Sexist, no.

sleek grove
#

Between female plated Dwarven gear and Male in Skyrim there is little difference in style

#

at least to me

#

the face plate changes

#

idk about Oblivion or Morrowind

brave shoal
#

yeah, even in eso, the dwarven plate i use hide my female chest a lot since it use heavy plating, so it give a neutral outlook on most character

#

only my one character with maxed chest/hip do it easier to tell a what is under the plating

uncut hatch
zinc wigeon
#

I hesitate to say this but they are somewhat less racist too

quartz shuttle
#

Eeeh... i wouldn't go that far

#

I think that the decrease in sexism, and increase in racism, makes htem about on par with the real world.

zinc wigeon
#

Increase in racism is due to past conflict though

#

So there is reason (no this does not mean I'm defending racism)

quartz shuttle
#

Eeeeh, to an extent maybe

zinc wigeon
#

Yeah

#

That and you can murder an entire faction of them in skyrim

pastel sorrel
#

There isn't really an "increase" in racism in TES compared to IRL, either

#

They're just a little more open about it. Lots of places are incredibly racist IRL, they just (sometimes) keep it a little more quiet.

#

Overall TES is a lot more progressive than one might think.

#

Relative lack of sexism, LGBT acceptance, disability aids

obtuse summit
#

people of tamriel still subtitious tho.

brave shoal
#

unless if your playing an argonian, so many call you walking handbag or boots ^^'

rocky lion
brave shoal
#

from what i remember from eso, earlier model looked similar to dwemer automaton but rapidly got their own style from sotha sil? and one theory some dunmer guy had is they use memory from sotha sil's dead sister as basis for their program but there no clear detail since it one of the few thing sotha sil forbid his follower from studying

rocky lion
#

they have nothing to do with the dwemer

#

animations visual design and function theyre entirely different

#

theyre androids who are fully sapient in a city of electricity science and clockwork mixed with magic

brave shoal
#

but it stated sotha sil's inventions including the android looked a lot like dwemeri until later when sotha sil moved away from dwemer tech into something of its own creation since he seem to dislike dwemer later in his life while early they where his main inspiration and model for everything

gaunt bear
# uncut hatch They’re asexual beings

Let me try:

Dwemer women are so alike in voice and appearance, and even names, that they’re often mistaken for Dwemer men.

(* Whispers *: It’s the beards.).

sour wharf
#

Hi folks. Has there ever been an interaction between the 9 divines and the tribunal? want to know if they(and their followers) are hostile to each other, or neutral, or there's just no such story

timber bough
#

The mortal Tiber interacted with them, in particular Vivec, during his conquests of Tamriel. He negotiated a truce by which Morrowind was to be integrated into his Empire with a degree of autonomy in return for the Numidium and a way to power it

#

Other than that I dont think there have been direct interactions, but their respective religious institutions were at odds in the 3rd Era, with the Temple reacting sharply to the Imperial pantheons influence

sour wharf
#

@timber bough that's a fascinating answer : ) Thank you for the extra context.

"...their respective religious institutions were at odds in the 3rd Era, with the Temple reacting sharply to the Imperial pantheons influence"

Is there somewhere I can read or watch a video on this topic? Sounds like something found from dialogue or cutscenes

timber bough
#

glad to have helped 👍 i don't know of any lore videos, but your best bet would be reading up on Morrowind lore

#

Morrowind (the game) has a lot of implicit content that further suggests this divide, like how there's different recall spells for the various churches

#

ALMSIVI intervention, divine intervention

sour wharf
#

I just the read UESP description for both interventions. It seems both try to keep it each to themselves? I haven't play Morrowind and now I'm curious whether there's a dialogue lines from NPCs regarding this

That answer is quite a subtle touch on the divide. Really like it. Thanks @timber bough sweetroll

sleek grove
sleek grove
#

More on topic to your point. afaik Sotha Sil started by tinkering with Dwarven stuff and reconstructing it. Though it's not the same by say ESO

glossy girder
#

I just had a sleepless night so beware... For I have come up with the greatest theory ever ! What if... This adorable little sweet roll is no other than... An aspect of Shor himself ! That would explain why he's immortal. And why the throne in Sovngarde is so small. I'm telling you... I'm on to something !

SR-creature-Sweet_Roll.jpg
dusky scaffold
#

Nah, you're just seeing things that aren't there

sand flume
#

shor is a sly fox

uncut hatch
#

hahaha

uncut hatch
#

(probably the only picture we have of shor too...)

frigid willow
#

I see Shor every time I make a new character

uncut hatch
frigid willow
#

I honestly have no idea

#

I'm in support of the "Prisoner is an aspect of Lorkhan" idea.

quartz shuttle
#

That doesn't mean their Shor though

#

Shor is a particular aspect of Lorkhan, not a Shezzarine

uncut hatch
#

everyone is some form of shor/lorkhan because they made the world

frigid willow
#

Honestly from what I've read its all potato potato to me.

quartz shuttle
#

The main difference would be size

#

Shor is still a really big chunk of Lorkhan. The Shezzarines are more like drops of blood compared to teh whole corpse

topaz dome
plain ibex
quartz shuttle
#

Or a single small slaughterfish spots you was you walk along the shore

plain ibex
#

That too, though it depends on the game. In Morrowind or Oblivion they can't go on land and you can fight them in water, in Skyrim they can swim into the earth and you can't do anything in water.

quartz shuttle
#

As it should be

#

Underwater combat is dumb. At least as most games handle it

uncut hatch
uncut hatch
quartz shuttle
#

Crabs are agressive, man

frigid willow
#

Big potato and small potato are still both potatoes.

last sage
frigid willow
#

Craaaaaab

plain ibex
dusky scaffold
#

I though you boil 'em, mash 'em, put them in a stew...

dusky scaffold
quartz shuttle
brisk perch
#

Wonder how many kinds of crabs exist in The Elder Scrolls universe?

obtuse summit
#

i am waiting for elder crab 🙂

frigid willow
#

In theory an elder scroll could take the form of a crab.

brisk perch
#

What if the Godhead is a crab?

frigid willow
#

The Godhead is supposed to be a perfect being

#

Think about that the next time you kill mudcrabs. You might be making the most important God angry.

brisk perch
#

TBH, they could just have us come back as a mudcrab. After all, there is only one step.

frigid willow
#

Tes 6 Canon protag is a mudcrab

#

With an elder scroll printed inside its shell

brisk perch
#

It's one of the reasons why I like the unintentional polymorphs in ESO, being able to play as a crab

uncut hatch
#

Crabs are a grand enemy to heroes in tales. Just ask Heracles when he fought the hydra

desert kayak
#

Just did this mission recently, and I gotta say, pretty damn good, wished there were more quests like this

#

Pretty dark, but overall a very good quest

pastel sorrel
quartz shuttle
#

Agreed, but Shezzarines do seem to exist

pastel sorrel
#

Not really?

quartz shuttle
#

They seem to be very uncommon

#

Far elss common than Heroes

pastel sorrel
#

Again, there's only one single usage of the term, and it's a moniker for Pelinal, one that he doesn't even confirm, and one that doesn't even necessarily directly relate to Shezarr.

#

If you're talking about manifestations of Shor, well yeah, but they seem quite far and few in between

quartz shuttle
#

Pelinal is used as an example. Now, does that mean he actually is? Maybe not, but it gives weight to their actual existnece.

pastel sorrel
#

the constituents of Talos technically being the only ones we even know of

quartz shuttle
#

They're still super rare, however. And yeah, we know of maybe 5 in total

pastel sorrel
quartz shuttle
#

Hanz the Fox, Pelinal, Wulfharth, Zurin and Tiber. Maybe

pastel sorrel
#

the moniker "Shezarrine" is for a specific person, it's not a group

#

the Shezarrine.

#

And there's specific reasons why the title is given to Pelinal specifically, but also why it doesn't necessarily directly relate to Shezarr beyond a namesake.

quartz shuttle
#

Maybe. I'll be honest, it's almost 2 am, and iv'e had 2 glasses of rum tonight. I;m not about to go source digging

pastel sorrel
#

I can promise you now, you're not going to find those sources, because they don't actually exist.

#

You're going off of lore community headcanon and incorrect usage of the term. The Shezarrine is, at most, Pelinal, and it's not explained what the term even means but there's evidence it applies more to his role than any direct connection to Shezarr.

quartz shuttle
#

I'm not overly invested either way. Shezzarines, like the Enatiomorph, get shoe horned into far too many things by some of the lore community

pastel sorrel
#

Avatars of Lorkhan in general, sure, he's popped in a couple of times here and there. My point is "Shezarrines" is not the right term for them.

#

It's a term used for a single individual due to specific circumstances.

#

Any usage of the term outside of Pelinal is unsupported.

quartz shuttle
#

Fair enough

frigid willow
#

I used the term potato to be clear.

pastel sorrel
#

Likewise there's no real indication any of the player characters are avatars of Shor. The throne thing in Sovngarde is, to be honest, quite probably just a dev oversight?

#

Like if it was meant to be significant, you'd think there would be dialogue from the others.

quartz shuttle
#

Which thing in Sovengarde?

pastel sorrel
#

Shor's throne in Sovngarde, you can sit in it. It doesn't do anything.

frigid willow
#

Its a chair.

pastel sorrel
#

People use it as evidence for the LDB being a manifestation of Shor, but it's not exactly the strongest evidence anyone could use.

#

It's entirely possible it's just a dev oversight. There's no reaction from anyone in the audience and nothing happens overall.

#

Earlier in development Shor was actually going to be sitting there, but that got axed.

#

Probably someone just removed Shor but forgot to make the chair unusable.

frigid willow
#

We're not even supposed to be in sovengard,it's safe to assume whatever regular rules apply to the spirits in the hall don't necessarily apply to us. Of course that's assuming there's some rule to break considering the way they explained away his absence means he's invisible to everyone but Tsuun

#

And I'm really just assuming tsuun can see Shor considering he's also a God.

pastel sorrel
#

iiiit's not really a matter of rules, though? We're still there, and can still physically interact with everyone there that we can see. We can sit down on the throne in full view of everyone and nobody comments on it or any hypothetical connection the LDB might have to Shor.

frigid willow
#

What I mean is

#

Would sitting in the chair even be notable really?
Like sure it's Shor's chair but he effectively doesn't exist on the same level as the heroic spirits. They can't see him or interact with him so the chair is always empty.

The nords are typically shown to be a fairly pragmatic people. Is it so odd that they wouldn't really care if a chair that's always empty is briefly occupied by someone other than it's owner?

An owner who can't actually sit in the chair for all intents and purposes.

#

It probably is just an oversight because Shor got the ax but I also don't think it's weird that no one seems to care.

#

I can sit on the high king's throne to no objections but I am not high king.

I can sit on any Jarl's throne to no objections but I am no Jarl.

It is kind of dumb to assume that being able to sit on Shor's throne makes you Shor when outside of a few specific quests or times you're trespassing no one ever comments on where you're sitting because it doesn't matter.

#

But watch there be some obscure post from like 2008 where MK says that anyone but Shor dies if they sit in his chair.

quartz shuttle
#

The denizens of Sovengarde pretty clearyl call out that Shor had to step out to protect the Dragonborn

#

a living mortal beholding a God of the Dead would be dangerous

frigid willow
#

So the chair is empty

#

We agree on that right ?

#

Shor is not present to go "hey that's my chair give it back."

quartz shuttle
#

Presumably because, looking upon him is death it's self

frigid willow
#

Why would they object to someone briefly occupying an unused chair ?

quartz shuttle
#

And a dead Dragonborn isn't that useful

#

Yeah

pastel sorrel
#

It's Shor's own throne. The Nords may be pragmatic to some extent, but they're still religious.

#

Shor is their chief. You're sitting in the big boss's own chair.

frigid willow
#

Great.

Guess I'm Shor,the archmage and the high king of skyrim.

#

Wait I am actually the archmage

pastel sorrel
#

The big boss that they respect and even rightfully fear, as we see in ESO especially; Shor isn't necessarily beloved wholesale, but he is highly respected for his ferocity and authority.

#

He's their warchief who lead them against the enemy gods of the south.

frigid willow
#

And Tyrigg was high king of skyrim until I sat in his chair wearing a special hat.

#

You are a person of such great importance that one of the major gods in your religion left his own freaking house out of convenience for you to have time to talk to three specific dead people.

Furthermore you're the only living being that's ever actually been to sovengard considering tsuun and Shor are both dead.

#

Which by the way if Shor can just kinda come back to life in sone form when he feels like it makes the whole dead God thing seem like a technicality.

obtuse summit
#

i guess being "Dead" is kinda different meaning for gods.

#

kinda like not worshiped anymore? I mean we're not see other nord style temple unless the hearth goddesses

pastel sorrel
#

He's still worshipped, there's just less point in doing it for the dead gods

#

Tsun is also dead, but he's still active as a spirit.

frigid willow
#

He is worshipped he's just not a temple type deity.

There's real world equivalents but some deities are worshipped through deeds rather than offerings so temples are kind of pointless.

pastel sorrel
#

But it's worth noting, Lorkhan is doubly dead as far as the et'ada go. All that's really left of him is scattered bits and pieces

frigid willow
#

By real world I mean real world mythology

pastel sorrel
#

Shor as they know him now is probably just one of those pieces, maybe the biggest that could return home to Sovngarde

#

but death hasn't stopped the Void Ghost overall.

frigid willow
#

To be clear i don't think Zeus wants a cut of my almond crops.

pastel sorrel
#

And he's back in action as Talos but that's another matter.

pastel sorrel
obtuse summit
#

Doing companions quest, i believe heroes of sovngarde always gone war with other realms ( deadra possibly ) like kodlak want to free other harbinger from hunting ground of hircine.

frigid willow
#

I feel like the distinction making Shor dead is more that he no longer interefers in mortal matters.

Since he's a fragment of Lorkhan it's not like the bulk of his essence is spent maintaining Mundus like the divines and he can walk the world when he wants to.

So he could potentially do more in terms of garnering worship despite being "dead". It seems more like a choice to do his own thing.

#

It might be like how the celts viewed the realms.

Celtic mythology is pretty close to nordic in some places and a big thing is an emphasis on a warrior's afterlife.

Celtic mythology actually occasionally acknowledges the existence of other afterlives for other religions but they're often targeted for raids.

pastel sorrel
#

On the contrary, there's more of Lorkhan attached to Nirn than nearly anyone else, that's arguably why he still walks it.

#

the Void Ghost still has unfinished business

frigid willow
#

Yeah he effectively is the planet.

pastel sorrel
#

the interference of the other gods is, i think, misunderstood

#

Their interference is the very workings of the Mundus

#

Looking for Kyne in the wind is like trying to look around for your own eyeballs.

#

When you forget the gods are the very lens you're seeing through, it's going to be hard to find anything that you'd accept as a sign of their existence or activity.

frigid willow
#

Kodlak wanting to raid the hunting lands of hircine seems like it would fly more than say raiding malacath's realm

pastel sorrel
#

And it's little wonder why they rarely show themselves more directly. They're busy being the world and handling whatever's going on out in Aetherius and possibly incursions from Oblivion.

frigid willow
#

The harbingers were honored nord dead after all. It makes sense that Sovengard might have claim over those souls despite the deal made with hircine. At the very least Kodlak can mire easily justify an invasion that way.

pastel sorrel
#

Lorkhan meanwhile has nothing to do but show up and do stuff, and he's been tied to the world in so many ways he probably doesn't have much choice, but he's probably fine with it.

frigid willow
#

Though I suppose that's assuming every harbinger was a nord considering that doesn't actually seem to be a requirement to be a harbinger

#

This is literally what Lorkhan wanted. So yeah he's probably fine with it.

obtuse summit
#

I mean what sovngarde's battle-hungry warriors want to do for eternity? more battles !

frigid willow
#

My pills are kicking in so I might become more incoherent than usual and pass out.

#

Ok so Sovengard is basically Valhalla

pastel sorrel
#

Basically.

#

With a dash of "external inter-kalpic storage".

#

same as the Far Shores.

#

Hell it could even be entirely intentional, Shor wants warriors stored in Sovngarde so he's got an army for next time.

#

the army at the end is then the army at the beginning.

frigid willow
#

In Valhalla the honored dead spend eternity preparing for ragnarok by fighting each other, the dead rise again each morning and the wounded are healed at the same time.

But they spend all thst time fighting one another.

Given the sheer amount of warriors in sovengard its likely the same deal.

pastel sorrel
#

if the kalpa ticks over again, Shor's gotta deal with his brother down south again, and that's gonna take an army.