'All your choices matter! Except, in order to carry on, we're going to render half your choices meaningless. Yay narrative depth!'
#elder-scrolls-lore
quartz shuttle
Absolute bullocks. 30 years of gaming and i have yet to see a single game that makes it work
sand flume
would be interesting if you could import your save from the previous game
not to play as the same character, but just for minor details
maybe if you joined the dawnguard they would grow more prevalent, expanding out to different provinces
or if you joined the volkihar, you would hear about how the vampire crisis is still continuing in skyrim
not sure if theres enough choices to make it worth it though
quartz shuttle
They tried that woth Mass Effect. It becomes bloated and unweildy very, very quickly.
native olive
Dragon Age too (same dev yes I know). DA never got bloated per se, but pretty much every choice that carried over was reduced to flavor text in a codex entry or some NPC dialogue changes or if something is REALLY important, an NPC or two will be swapped out
sand flume
witcher made it work, but its nothing too significant ig
native olive
tw3 carried over data from 2?
dusky scaffold
Yes, but what did it change?
quartz shuttle
Virtually nothing. One or two NPCs switch places, and i think Djikstra gets a few different lines of dialogue
sand flume
tw3 carried over data from 2?
and 2 from 1
sand flume
Virtually nothing. One or two NPCs switch places, and i think Djikstra gets a fe...
yeah, but its enough to show your actions affected something
even something as small as keeping your tattoo from witcher 2 in witcher 3 is fun
dusky scaffold
well, in Elder Scrolls, you play very different protagonists
topaz dome
maybe if you joined the dawnguard they would grow more prevalent, expanding out ...
That wouldn't work for me. I start a new story, totally unconnected to any of my other character's stories, with each new character I roleplay. I play tens or even hundreds of different characters in each Elder Scrolls game. Which changes would be "canon" in the next game? It just wouldn't be feasible for myself and for a lot of other long-term players.
sand flume
yeah thats fair enough, if you played loads of characters in skyrim youd have to choose which is the canon one, and i totally understand how thatd be problematic for lots of people
quartz shuttle
Yeah. In a structured setting with a clearly established character, there's some room for that stuff, even if it gets clunky....
But in a more open ended game like TES, where you can play dozens of distinct characters, its a lot more difficult
Like, my current character isn't even Dragonbkrn. I have 87 hours in this playthrough, and have zero intention of ever doing the main quest.
solid path
At a minimum you've got guild outcomes and the civil war.
If you want (for some reason) to get down to if certain items (like the daedric items) were found and used, that gets even more complex.
Let alone "So, what race and sex was the dragonborn??"
dusky scaffold
"yes"
native olive
Like, my current character isn't even Dragonbkrn. I have 87 hours in this playth...
honestly this is my preferred way to play skyrim. iirc there's even a mod that removes the references to you being the dragonborn from the main quest so you're just a guy who manages to kill alduin
quartz shuttle
Yeah, that mod has always rubbed me the wrong way. Its tossing the entire metaphysical setting out the window.
That said, im not against chosen one stories for big thjngs. A random Joe Blow killing Alduin doesn't make Joe a badass to me, it makes Alduin a chump.
Still, sometimes i just want to be Joe Blow the onion farmer.
native olive
i meant from an objective lore perspective, yes it's completely contradictory. but if you look at it from within the game itself it really just kinda...erases that part of the lore
so i'm playing a version of skyrim where the dragonborn as a concept doesn't exist at all
AU: your neighbor greg gets fed up with the flying lizards and invades heaven to kill one
quartz shuttle
Lol
native olive
i'd really like to see a conversion mod where your character is actually the companion to the dragonborn and you're along for the ride but that's. super ambitious
stark socket
I agree with Schmit here, twists and additions like that would be interesting. Skyrim's ultimate Hero of Prophecy Dragonborn Superhero Power Fantasy has not aged well for me either.
robust trout
i'd _really_ like to see a conversion mod where your character is actually the c...
okay but. Imagine that but twist it. So you're the Chosen One's companion, but turns out he's a bit of a dunce so you're the one actually doing most of the work and he's just pulling a Lockhart.
native olive
okay but. Imagine that but twist it. So you're the Chosen One's companion, but t...
i mean in my head that's what it was lol. from a story perspective you're the companion to the legendary dragonborn
but in reality
it's effectively the same gameplay. you're doing all the fighting while your terrible ai companion gets downed in a spike trap
you'd have to rewrite parts of the story and some scripted events to accommodate two characters but i do think it'd be possible
quartz crane
I agree with Schmit here, twists and additions like that would be interesting. S...
I think it's less the superhero chosen one that's the issue, it's that you're that FROM THE START. There is no becoming that makes it have weight.
native olive
I think it's less the superhero chosen one that's the issue, it's that you're th...
if you accept the theory that the nerevarine is not born as such but becomes such after completing the aforementioned trails, that's the only kind of "chosen one" nonsense i like
i don't like prophesized individuals who are destined for whatever because it eliminates the stakes
gaunt bear
One does not simply
*kill* Alduin
Well, if I was the one behind Alduin’s lore, I’d say that Alduin’s defeat in Sovngarde caused Alduin to undergo “rebirth”.
quartz crane
if you accept the theory that the nerevarine is not born as such but becomes suc...
Exactly. I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet. Although discovering that this is what you were all along through the process of the story would still be enough for me, I think. If you're uncertain of it for most of the narrative and gradually understand why over the course of a story, then that feels like the same sort of thing as the becoming of the Nerevarine.
native olive
i can see that. it is slightly different from the nerevarine but as long as you're with that character throughout the ride so neither they nor you know you're some prophesized hero, that'd probably be alright. stakes would have still been there in the moment. in theory.
topaz dome
Exactly. I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet. Although discovering th...
Morrowind is a flawed example, in my opinion. We are told in the beginning of the game that we are "Chosen".
native olive
you are not the first person to have been told that tho
azura's basically throwing "chosen ones" at vvardenfell until one (you) finally sticks
quartz shuttle
you are not the first person to have been told that tho
There is literally no evidence that anyone else has been told that
Even when you talk to the Incarnates, not a single one mentions it. Jacobs Teapot and all
native olive
i know there's a dialogue somewhere mentioning it
but my work is done for the day and i must gym. ping me later and i'll try and find it
quartz shuttle
Ok, i would be very interested in seeing it
ocean brook
that was the prevailing theory back in the time of the Loranna RP, from what I remember. People in the know considered Azura a horrible person, because she destroyed life after life, trying to get her vengeance on the Tribunal
plain ibex
i'd _really_ like to see a conversion mod where your character is actually the c...
That sounds like Oblivion.
quartz shuttle
that *was* the prevailing theory back in the time of the Loranna RP, from what I...
Largely because Kirkbride doesn't like her, though. There's actualy very little evidence to suggest any actual agency on the part of Azura, and as more stuff has come out since (sons of Wulfharth, Foul Murder, the entire ESO expansion) her actual role as antagonist has slipped further.
ocean brook
I'm honestly unsure if I like the idea of an Azura-as-helpless-seeress any better than Azura-as-callous-manipulator, but I guess that works ^_^
quartz shuttle
I think its somewhere in between
She may not habe active agency in an outcome, but she sure can rub it in your face out of spite.
native olive
That sounds like Oblivion.
Kinda except you were prophesied literally before you even exited your jail cell to be some great hero
ocean brook
okay then, so, what have we seen Azura actually do? she's given prophecies, she's 'created' the Khaijiit and done a lot of stuff in their myths, anything else?
quartz shuttle
Not really much of anything
Her agency appears mostly to give visions to people, when she wants something
ocean brook
so, other than the Khaijiit myth cycle, she hasn't done all that much?
golden sierra
she's Prince of Prophecy, for her word is as sure as the dawn and dusk. lifting a finger probably seems like a lot of work in comparison to making a prophecy 
even if you're one of those people who think her prophecies aren't actually prophecies, people who hear of them will start scrambling to fulfill them, so they become a prophecy anyways - just a self-fulfilling one
ocean brook
so, she's uttering all these prophecies, which she may or may not have any control over, and she may or may not be trying to achieve a specific aim by saying a prophecy to someone, because she may just be hard-wired to prophesize when a prophecy bubbles up
golden sierra
pretty much
ocean brook
. . . that's awfully disappointing
native olive
thanos gif
ocean brook
. . .what?
quartz shuttle
Azura at her core is Transitions. One thing moving into the next. Dusk to Dawn, Prophecies, even the Velothi, they're all part of that
I don't think she actively creates Prophecies, but she does relate them to mortals. When it suits her.
For instance, she definitely told the Tribunal about the return of Nerevar. She didn't have to, of course. But she actively enjoys the torment that knowledge brought on the Tribunal
She's petty, sure, and can be malicious if slighted, but her influence is far more subtle and psychological.
Only Prisoners/Heroes are unbound by Fate. They are the only ones who can make real choices and shape the future. Everyone else follows a set path, and Azura sees those paths.
ocean brook
so, we're arguing that she does have some agency after all, it's just - when it doesn't involve Khaijiit - in the form of subtle, psychological manipulation
quartz shuttle
She then gets to choose whether or not to reveal them to mortals, and how. Does she show future events to lift the spirits of her followers, so they know things will get better? Or does she show her enemies their doom and make them parinoid?
Yeah. Her ability to actually shape fate is questionable. But her ability to shape how you percieve your fate is very, very resl
native olive
. . .what?
ocean brook
. . . except Lachdonin here just reaffirmed what I had thought was reality 😛
mostly
I had been worried that Azura didn't even get o decide when she spoke up or not, she just rambled off prophecies whenever they flared up
quartz shuttle
I had been worried that Azura didn't even get o decide when she spoke up or not,...
Nah. She definitely gets to decide who hears what.
ocean brook
huzzah. and now, off for lunch 🙂
golden sierra
. . . that's awfully disappointing
do note that i was taking the most neutral route possible here and trying to account for other people's potential interpretations
personally i think she does have some level of agency when it comes to prophecies and such, but others disagree on it 
because she may just be hard-wired to prophesize when a prophecy bubbles up
the reason i agreed to this is because et'Ada (i.e. original spirits, like the Aedric gods or Daedric Princes or Magna-Ge) tend to be... mmm... they don't quite have free will? they can't really act in a way that is contrary to their sphere of influence
it's in Mehrunes Dagon's nature to be destructive. it's in Molag Bal's nature to try and dominate. it's in Mephala's nature to lie, kill, so on. it's in Azura's nature to speak prophecies, when it suits her. she has some choice as to how she communicates those prophecies, who she communicates them to, when she communicates them, stuff like that, but she can't just suddenly be like "eh, i don't enjoy this gig much anymore," y'know? she can't turn her back on her nature
i'm sure there's an easier way to put that that doesn't require as many words, but ah well
ocean brook
all of which makes for good reasons to avoid venerating the Daedra as gods, since they're barely even a full persona, but if they have no agency within their own purview at all, it seems pointless to even get mad at them
coral mantle
and yet different cultures worship different aspects of these gods. my mistress Lady Namira is just some repulsive beggar-cannibal thing for Imperials, main demon who steals souls of the dead for khajjit, Queen Spirit, head of the pantheon for Reach folks
ocean brook
and running mate with Nocturnal for the title of Ur-dra?
mild dagger
I've seen people say that the Dwemer fused into Nimidium. Where was that ever stated?
ocean brook
in multiple places
some khaijiit booik collector mentions it
Vivec refers to it when he says that God is armorerd head to toe in terror - he's referring the Numidum and the state of terror the dwemer must be feeling, trapped in a hell of their own making
it's quite Evangellion like, all A.T. Fieldy
there's a book which hints at it, where a dwemer golem maker mentions how a child of eight can build a golem, but it takes a eight of dwemer to become one
quartz shuttle
all of which makes for good reasons to avoid venerating the Daedra as gods, sinc...
I mean, the Aedra are the exact same thing. Maybe even worse
ocean brook
ever have a comatose parent?
quartz shuttle
No, but i have had one who suffered from dementia and ultimately ended up almost never lucid and bedridden, so i think i can make the leap to understanding what a comatose parent is like
But the problem is, the Aedra and Daedra are the same things, just separated by residence. If one is worth being called a god, the other is by default
For instance, Akatosh IS time, in the same way that Molag Bal IS domination, and Azura IS Transitions
ocean brook
and this gets into the fraught realm of, just what do we expect a god to be?
if we're looking for wise, benevolent entitieis with answers to questions that perplex us, well . . . none of this lot measures up
quartz shuttle
True. Ultimately, Immortality and the ability to shape reality to their whim. Thats where i draw the line, at least. And the latter part is a sliding scale
ocean brook
if we're looking for something that's related to us, but on a different gradient of existence? then they're perfect, all of them
quartz shuttle
You can have a wide gradient of gods, some greater. Some lessee
The Tribunes are about as low as i would put a god
ocean brook
well, now, they're an interesting case, because unlike the et'ada, they chose to become what they became
and they presumably stepped on some toes to gain that power
quartz shuttle
Yeah. Talos is another one
ocean brook
I've become totally confused by Talos now; just who IS he?
quartz shuttle
Ascended Mortals are a whole other kettle of fish, and i think part of the whole point of Mundus
solid path
Mantling is awkward.
solid path
I've become totally confused by Talos now; just who IS he?
Some dude mantling Lorkhan IIRC.
quartz shuttle
Talos is the god-name given to Tiber Septim, a god who may be a Mantle if Lorkhan (in which case he would be an Et'ada now) or may be an ascended Mortal
I tend to lean mkre to the latter, as it explains mkre of his varied agency, but we are told that 'The Stormcrown mantled by way of the fourth, the steps of the dead'
ocean brook
. . . there's multiple methods of mantling
quartz shuttle
Possibly.
ocean brook
ahh
the spirit of all human endeavor . . . I hereby headcanon Talos as a Nordic Luchador!
you will now reimagine the pivotal scene in C0DA between Jubal and Talos with Talos putting Jubal in the dreaded cobra clutch
quartz shuttle
Better than my headcanon for him
Which will almost certianly be censored if i were to type it out
ocean brook
for Talos or for Jubal?
quartz shuttle
Talos/Tiber Septim
ocean brook
no, he just attained CHIM off camera
fallen panther
ocean brook
I believe he means Barenziah
signal raptor
How about we change the subject as that seems rather inappropriate
quartz shuttle
I mean, it's in the lore
Can you really say discussing a point that's literally in the games is inappropriate?
solid path
It can be appropriate for a discussion of the game, but inappropriate for the forum we're on.
quartz shuttle
I suppose
solid path
I think it hits
NSFW content such as media, text, inappropriate names, or discussion is not permitted
quartz shuttle
Which raises another question...
NSFW. Whose work? Because everywhere I've worked, our conversations have been very... Clerks.
Well, not everywhere. Worked at a summer camp once, where i got into trouble for explaining 1984 to the kids...
solid path
Not really a ES Lore question. 😐
quartz shuttle
True, but its a groundwork question that helps establish whatore you can talk abojt
For instance, is The Lusty Argonian Maid ehere you draw the line? Saphire's backstory? The Remanada?
solid path
🤷 It goes on to say if you have to ask it's probably NSFW, but I suppose you could corner a mod over it at some point.
signal raptor
I would say it is more about how it is discussed.
quartz shuttle
🤷 It goes on to say if you have to ask it's probably NSFW, but I suppose you c...
See, thats the problem... i wouldn't feel the need to ask about any of that, because it's pretty clear cut for me
Like talking about the Minotaur's origin.
But, talking about how Zeus turned into a Bull and sexually assaulted a queen is NSFW for some
signal raptor
Instead you could say something more along the lines of how a Minotaur was created by Zeus and not go into the depth of how. If others are interested, then that is something they could look into, but not discuss here as the origin is still inappropriate.
quartz shuttle
Yeah, and that's the point I'm getting at with asking about NSFW as a criteria. Where does the scale sit? Because i wouldn't consider that inappropriate, but mythology and its implications were dinner table conversations in my house, and ive never encountered a problem with ut at work
So, the notion of it being NSFW has literally only just crossed my mind
Politics is easy. No Real World Politics. Personally, i think its a terrible rule, but i do understand why, especially for an American based company.
But 'Inappropriate' content is more of a sliding scale.
coral mantle
dunno, i wouldnt want my boss to occasionally look on my screen and see those discussions above^. doubt she'd ask if it was about fictional book within fictional world
quartz shuttle
Yeah, different work environments
What was considered 'Safe for work' in the navy was... well...
Still, overall point taken. Different environment than the forums, different thresholds for conversation
native olive
so i see the lore channel is the pedanticism channel today
quartz shuttle
I mean, isn't it always.
?
pastel sorrel
Just as a note, Barenziah was at least 17 at the time in question.
quartz shuttle
Just as a note, Barenziah was at least 17 at the time in question.
Yes. But she was also still too young to have children. Which would make her still a child.
pastel sorrel
Not true, she fell pregnant with Tiber's kid
he had it aborted.
Also i forget the timeframe, she was 17 when she was hanging around in Riften, i forget how much later Tiber enters the picture
quartz shuttle
Based on the chapter, he only engaged with her because he was told she was too young to have children.
quartz shuttle
Also i forget the timeframe, she was 17 when she was hanging around in Riften, i...
It's about a year, if memory serves
pastel sorrel
So, 18-ish. Note that pregnancies as young as 12 have occurred, puberty just kinda does what it wants when it wants.
quartz shuttle
So, 18-ish. Note that pregnancies as young as 12 have occurred, puberty just kin...
In humans. These are Elves we're talking about.
Which is the point i bring up, based on Merish aging, she was the equivalent of a 11-12 year old reproductively
pastel sorrel
with mer their fertility's seemingly a little more stretched out, but being able to actually bear children is a very separate matter to whether they're mentally mature
they mentally mature the same as men, it's fertility-wise they have issues.
quartz shuttle
We aren't entirely sure. Based on the rapid infatuation with Tiber, her reaction is more like that of a young addolessant girl than, well... An almost young-adult
Not to say you can't have the same thing with adults either, but psychology and maturity are even more of a sliding scale than biology
pastel sorrel
i mean, that's literally a thing with grown-ass adults all the time
she's a young adult face to face with a powerful and charismatic ruler who desires her
quartz shuttle
And we're also dealing with very different social structures, yes
pastel sorrel
and she'd just gotten done living in a place like Riften bunking with the Thieves Guild, now faced with a potential life of luxury
quartz shuttle
Yes, i know
Bear in mind, i am incredibly, INCREDIBLY biased against Tiber Septim
pastel sorrel
I'm not saying Tiber isn't a massive butthead, but this particular situation does have contextual reasoning behind it. He's a massive butthead for other valid reasons.
quartz shuttle
As a historical and conceptual figure, absolutely great. He's a fantastic dictator and villainous conqueror. I like anything that makes him look like hte scumbag he is
stark socket
The Tiber & Barenziah you discussed are characters in an infamous novel, not their historical inspirations. I would not take half of this work at face value - certainly not the scandalous juice, and the rest only with reservation.
ocean brook
Tiber Septim, as per a (possibly slightly drunk) MK, knew the Wolf Style, and would run into battle on all fours. This style was so dangerous, that it scared Cyrus The Restless to think of facing it.
Over many years, I have sought to figure out what the Wolf Style might look like. I eventually concluded that it looked like the Toad Style, but with the jumping done more as a pounce than an E. Honda style body torpedo headbutt.
I furthermore concluded that the Wolf Style incorporated the Thu'um, since all martial arts is built on breathing, and it would be very useful to, say, encase your opponent in ice before pouncing on them from all fours, rather than attack with a sword like a normal person ^_^
ocean brook
not wolfen enough 🙂
pastel sorrel
not wolfen enough 🙂
what if it's wolves who aren't wolfen enough and that .gif is peak wolf performance
ocean brook
then I say the part about the chat with MK that had Imperial voidnauts having flowers grow out of their hip region due to snowballs thrown by the crew of the Carrick was still not the trippiest part of that conversation
and that this was Tiber Septim's fault, for not being wolfen enough
north valley
You know what really grinds my gears? When people take "Notes on Racial Phylogeny" at face value
dusk timber
You know what really grinds my gears? When people take "Notes on Racial Phylogen...
Agreed.
quartz shuttle
You know what really grinds my gears? When people take "Notes on Racial Phylogen...
Even worse, when people DON'T take Notes on Racial Phylogeny at face value, and strawman what it says
gaunt bear
Even worse, when people DON'T take Notes on Racial Phylogeny at face value, and ...
Now I’m getting even more confused.
quartz shuttle
Notes on Racial Phylogeny states, among other things, that offpsring of mixed-race couples TEND to take the traits of the Mother, but also often have the fathers traits. It also states that while there hvae been reports of offpsring between Men/Mer and Daedra and Khajiit, the Imperial Medical socity hasn't confirmed or studied any
People tend to take those statements as ALWAYS being the race of the mother, and that there are no Khajiiti-Manmer offpsring
solid path
But are there any men/mer - argonian offspring? That's the real question. 😛
gaunt bear
But I can say this. In my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction, Alduin was cross-breeding mortals and spirits to create an army of Shiftlings, with the aid of a Dwemer Mage/Scientist whose obsession with unraveling the link/secrets between life and Alteration was so unnerving that he was banished from his own society. For life.
quartz shuttle
Racial Phylogeny states there are no known pairings, no. But seeing as Khajiit apparently can...
golden sierra
Notes on Racial Phylogeny states, among other things, that offpsring of mixed-ra...
take race of mother, traits of father
for example, a child born to a dunmer mother and a nord father would be a dunmer, and would mostly fit the part, but might have a trait or two of the father's - perhaps lighter skin, a Nordic eye or hair color, perhaps height more comparable to a Nord...
quartz shuttle
take race of mother, traits of father
GENERALLY. The wording does allow for exceptions
But people tend to ignore the 'Generally' part of it
golden sierra
tbf i don't think we have much that counters it besides perhaps Alessia's son
golden sierra
hm. i thought the idea that he used the Razor to change his race was widespread
and yet this is like the third time i've heard someone say otherwise
golden sierra
Father was a Bosmer. he most definitly is not a tree goblin
also wouldn't this be easily explained by mother being an altmer anyways?
that doesn't seem like it works toward your point
quartz shuttle
No, no, you're right
Maybe it was his Mother that was a Bosmer, i'd have to double check
It's definitely a point that's come up in conversation before though
golden sierra
the way my understanding of it works is that his mother and father were both bosmer but he went to daddy dagon for the razor and used it to shape his soul into that of an altmer
thus he was bosmer and now isn't
i don't have the evidence for this on-hand right now, though 😔
solid path
UESP states his mother was a Bosmeri
It then suggests his father might have been Bosmer, or might have been Breton - or his father might not even have been the person most people think it is.
dull pilot
Hello, I wonder if anyone can point me in the right direction to learn as much as possible about the Riverwood settlement? I'm working on a mod and want to make sure it's lore friendly. I have done the usual Google search but thought there might be more. Thanks!
sand flume
is this riverwood in ESO despite not being an actual location in ESO?
looks like it could be, its showcasing a riverwood breed of chicken
unless thats a different location in ESO, but the lumbermill behind the blacksmith makes it look strikingly like riverwood
dusky scaffold
it most likely is a recreation of Riverwood, but it has not been released as a playable area, it has just been created as a background for the image
golden sierra
unless thats a different location in ESO, but the lumbermill behind the blacksmi...
there's the gate on the right, as well
sand flume
ancient riverwood is deepest lore
kindred hinge
Hermaeus Mora is my dad
prime gazelle
Thats on svens house right
sand flume
dont think sven existed at that point 
dusky scaffold
Sven is eternal
plain ibex
Hermaeus Mora is my dad
How many tentacles do you have?
kindred hinge
dusky scaffold
That's... quite a lot
plain ibex
Indeed, I wonder how you managed to count them all.
signal raptor
Indeed, I wonder how you managed to count them all.
A different ring on each one?
plain ibex
A ring on the 101st too 😳 😳 😳
glad ferry
Can Morag Tong writs be "failed"? Is it a bad thing if your target dies or is killed by someone/something else?
Just wondering if there's lore on this
quartz shuttle
I suspect they don't get paid if they don't do the deed. But thats probably it.
dusky scaffold
I think it depends on the circumstances of the death, and wether a specific kind of assassination was requested
glad ferry
Yeah it makes me think whether the official writs or gray writs have any difference other than one's legally backed and the other isn't.
If the one paying them dies before the job is done means the contract is void.
And a couple other things I'm forgetting
solid path
If they're just wanted dead, and the target keels over of something apparently unconnected, do you think they just claim to be that good. 😛
quartz shuttle
I suspect the contracts are pretty thurough
plain ibex
Who lights these braziers?
brave shoal
eso? i vote quen (that npc you meet in thieve guild dlc) only one i encountered that give no 2 copper to walls and jump them like they didnt exist
plain ibex
eso? i vote quen (that npc you meet in thieve guild dlc) only one i encountered ...
Blades. This is in a dungeon.
brave shoal
still apply, a npc that jump/walk on walls like they're the ground? ^^'
dim bluff
Guess what nerds. Tod Howard is the one dreaming. The dwemer discovered they were in a game and jumped out in to a usb.
coral mantle
created their own Todd Howard within the game, some say
native olive
hemlo friends
quartz shuttle
hemlo friends
Hemlo fren
plain ibex
Howb is eberyome doin
uncut hatch
Howb is eberyome doin
I’m doing alright
balmy salmon
Can Morag Tong writs be "failed"? Is it a bad thing if your target dies or is ki...
Some of the dialogue in Morrowind implies that if a Morag Tong assassin dies trying to carry out a writ, client will have to purchase another writ if they still want the target dead, so that probably counts as failed.
quartz shuttle
Yet another example of how Morrowind distinguishes between the Brotherhood and the Tong.
The Brotherhood is trash now.
solid path
Perhaps the (optional) purge will get it back on track. 😛
native olive
The Brotherhood is trash now.
i think that's kind of deliberate tho
quartz shuttle
I unfortunately do not. I think they legitimately thought they were making something cool and edgy in Oblivion
Instead, we got Nanny and the Manson Family Rejects.
dusky scaffold
the purge isn't optional
the brotherhood is mostly wiped out either way
native olive
I unfortunately do not. I think they legitimately thought they were making somet...
i'll grant you oblivion, but that was also. oblivion. i'll be interested to see how they handle it in tes6 in light of the events of skyrim
solid path
Well... just because the Skyrim cell was going a bit funny doesn't mean other cells couldn't be up and running by the time we get to ESVI. Or perhaps there's a new organisation taking that role wherever we are.
native olive
it depends on where in the timeline 6 takes place, but they pretty firmly established that the brotherhood is all but wiped out in tamriel. it would be cool to see a new organization emerge, but then you run the risk of muddying the waters with so many assassin guilds, or just making a reskinned DB (a la the companions re the fighter's guild)
solid path
At least the companions had something different going for them.
native olive
lycanthropy and what else
solid path
Not so many "go kill me a rat in this basement" quests. 😛
native olive
Not so many "go kill me a rat in this basement" quests. 😛
i'll grant you that but that very well could just be the natural result of more advanced technology and better writing
solid path
As for the assassin guild thing. Perhaps there could be two of them, and you could take one (or both) over, and potentially merge them or run both independently - or maybe play them against each other. 😛
Perhaps the Tong have extended their reach, and there's someone claiming to be the remnants of the Brotherhood - or just someone has gone into "proactive bodyguarding"...
And we do have Sadia's accusations that the Alik'r (or supposed Alik'r - after all, we don't have proof they were, rather than being someone dressed that way) that were pursuing her were assassins. Albeit maybe not professional ones.
native olive
the way i read that quest was that the alik'r after her were sanctioned by hammerfell itself to extract saadia so she could stand trial for her crimes, but the trial would undoubtedly result in her execution
solid path
It's possible - it's also possible they had a "dead or alive" contract with whoever is running the place (whether "king" or council), but for obvious reasons they want her alive to answer questions.
It's one of those very ambiguous situations.
sand flume
he gets very upset if you kill saadia
"All that effort, and you just kill her. You've ruined everything."
native olive
well there you have it i guess
quartz shuttle
My hangup is the Alik'r. Even Saadia calls them Alik'r. And why would the very independent desert people who had fought against the Dominion be doing work for the Dominion?
solid path
Pretty much any individual has their price. And they might not know they're working for the Dominion if they've been sent by someone else who's been bribed enough.
quartz shuttle
Her claim just seems fishy to me. Moreso than Kematu's.
I'm more inclined to think the whole thing is unrelated to the Dominion at all, and she's just a traitor or runaway from an Alik'r clan.
Fabricating a story about major political involvement is just better to get others invovled, because no one cares aboht internal affairs of one desert dwelling clan.
solid path
I guess there's no way to really know. 🤷
Both stories seem a bit weak in several ways.
The one time I bothered to do the quest I sided with her because I didn't like the Alik'r mercs attitude.
native olive
i usually side with her if for no other reason than the alik'r are wildly overstepping the bounds of their authority
ocean brook
and really, do these guys act like Alik'r? they leave one of their own behind for faiiling to live up to expectations - a desert people, who wouid be used to working together to survive, leaving one of their own behind in a foreign land "because he got caught"
if the Alik'r throw out anyone who screws up, they're going to be bleeding population needlessly
pastel sorrel
Sure, but making dumb decisions like that isn't unrealistic.
Look at the work culture in Japan. They are bleeding population.
But also it's Kematu specifically who made that call to leave him behind, doesn't mean he speaks for all Alik'r
As for overstepping their authority, they're there as bounty hunters. While foreign bounty hunters in your land might be a sticky legal situation in its own right, Skyrim can hardly complain given its own history.
ocean brook
so basically, Saadia acts shady, and Kematu acts like a thug until it's clear that you;ll probably wipe out half or more of his men, trying to kill you
after which he becomes surprisingly smooth
pastel sorrel
All in all it's Saadia's story that's most unsupported. Kematu isn't necessarily entirely forthcoming, but Saadia's narrative doesn't line up with what we're told elsewhere about Hammerfell's situation
She makes out like the Dominion are taking over and she was cast out for speaking out against them, but Hammerfell's supposed to've been the ones to fight off the Dominion to the point of forcing them into a peace treaty
quartz shuttle
and really, do these guys *act* like Alik'r? they leave one of their own behind ...
If your survival depends on competency, and someone can't carry their weight... yeah i can see it. The Inuit weren't above abandoning family members who screwed up, or couldn't contribute.
pastel sorrel
not without massive cost of course, but they're actively against the Dominion
so Kematu's story about Taneth falling in the war due to her lines up perfectly, her claims that the Dominion have a foothold do not.
solid path
Unless them taking Taneth is the foothold.
ocean brook
where are we told that hammerfell is fighting off the dominion, again?
pastel sorrel
quartz shuttle
Kematu's statements also indicate a Dominion presence. He states that the resistance against the Dominion is alive and well in Hammerfell
You don't usually have a resistance against a foreign, unrelated body.
pastel sorrel
Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E180
pastel sorrel
You don't usually have a resistance against a foreign, unrelated body.
the Dominion are still there and they're still gonna be chomping at the bit, you can have an active resistance against a nation that isn't explicitly at war with you
Skyrim's not at war either but we know the Thalmor are poking in
difference is Hammerfell's a lot more free with being able to fight them
quartz shuttle
Yeah, but it does imply something more like the state in the Empjre than the usual "Thw Redguard drove them out" platitude
solid path
So they're occupying part of the province, but don't have a foothold?
After all, you don't usually have a resistance to another nation that isn't in your land or occupying you.
pastel sorrel
No, Dominion forces had to withdraw from Hammerfell
solid path
So if they've withdrawn, what's the resistance to?
quartz shuttle
So they're occupying part of the province, but don't have a foothold?
More likely, they are free to move about and access hammerfells ports, but don't have an official military presence
Any Aldmeri forces in Hammerfell would be 'Security' for thejr ships, envoys and interests.
pastel sorrel
They're still an active issue politically, and they'd be on the lookout for Thalmor agents
They're resisting any shenanigans from the Dominion, not just war.
native olive
honestly? here's my scoop: saadia seems like a baddie so i quite frankly do not mind that she committed a crime. i think that's very sexy and good of her
quartz shuttle
I mean, if Kematu's story is true, Saadia DID side with the right people
#Dominion4Life
native olive
Altmer/Khajiiti Supremacy
ocean brook
so, as of twenty five years ago, according to this book, hammerfell drove the dominion out
or rather, fought them "to a standstill"
which can mean kicked them out, but not far out, or just "they're not making anyh more advances in our land"
quartz shuttle
Fought them to a standstill and then signed a treaty for a military withdrawl.
ocean brook
a treaty
so basically, the same setup as with Cyrodiil - a peace neither side expects to last as it's just a ruse for building up strength for another go
quartz shuttle
It can also mean 'requires advisory liaisons for all city states, appointed by the Dominion '
quartz shuttle
The statement in The Great War still leaves a lot of room for interpretation, yeah
And it doesn't mean Thrown Out either
quartz shuttle
Yeah
solid path
That's the accusation - although I'm not sure she's old enough to have done that. 😐
ocean brook
so over twenty five years ago
quartz shuttle
Which would put her probably in her late 40s, early 50s
ocean brook
she could just age well
quartz shuttle
I mean, Ulfric is oushing 60 at least
solid path
Possibly. The aging can be a bit rapid.
quartz shuttle
Thinking about it... i think the temple of Mara is lying.
Life doesn't seem that short in Skyrim...
Plenty of war veterans in their 50s and 60s around
native olive
isn't she also a high ranking noble? very well could have done it as a youngster given more authority than she probably should have
solid path
Perhaps it's like medieval times. It's short - unless it isn't. Lots of early deaths, but once you hit 20 you're good to go.
quartz shuttle
Probably more the case
ocean brook
the relevant point is, Kematu's gang is chasing an old bounty
I mean, his story does validate that; Redguards are vindictive
quartz shuttle
Sodding...
So were some people in the 90s, tracking down war criminals from the 50s
quartz shuttle
Just because it was a long time ago, doesn't mean people aren't looking to hold tje guilty parties responsible
ocean brook
it does mean, however, that there's been a long while for details to get muddied
which is the overarching problem with deciding who is in the right
we don't have the full story, and never will by now - it's just been too long
solid path
I really should try making a character who is the apparent twin to Sadia.
That'd be briefly amusing whilst dealing with the redguards.
ocean brook
lol - and on that note, I gotta run
quartz shuttle
Lates
Of course, my interpretation is based on my bias of the Dominion being stronger than some give them credit for
solid path
I've thought about the temple of Mara lying about how short life is.
Perhaps the goddess of getting married and having babies wants people to get on with that as early as possible, so it's not so much a lie as putting a bit of a spin on the situation.
"You should get married early, because you never know when a rabid bear will eat you whilst you're on the road!"
native olive
life also might just be shorter in skyrim cuz like......well have u seen the state of skyrim lately
pastel sorrel
i mean, Tamriel's well-known for being war-torn and that's even without the occasional daedric intervention
plus as good as their healthcare seems to be, disease is still an issue, on top of starvation and hostile monsters and various other factors
life is short for a lot of people
native olive
oh i don't doubt it, but i'm hazarding a guess that qol in skyrim in 4E is generally lower than elsewhere
morrowind notwithstanding
pastel sorrel
I'd say it's less QOL and more general lifestyle
People seem to be doing relatively alright, but Nords are gonna be Nords.
bar brawls, charging into battle, doing stupid dares for the clout
solid path
Plus the life expectancy goes way down whenever the "Chosen Hero" shows up in your province, even not counting whatever threat they're meant to be dealing with.
"I wonder what this guy's got in his pockets??"
stab
"Huh, two sweet rolls, one pocket knife and 3 septims"
pastel sorrel
To be fair, a lot of that's also chalked up to "why are you, leather-armored bandit running on half a breadstick, trying to rob the dude in full daedric armor who just killed a dragon in front of you"
solid path
I was thinking "non-questgiver, non-merchant inhabitants of any town".
pastel sorrel
if anything the life expectancy possibly goes up in the long term because every bandit with an ambition gets wiped out and no longer becomes a problem for everyone else
coral mantle
i usually betray Saadia, ooc to stop that annoying random encounter, ic because Kematu is sort of supposed to pay more? i like her though, trying to think of her as of
as of 'noir character' (ah, hit enter too early). messed with wrong people, runs from her past.. we'd rob jarl balgruuf and together we'd .. probably be cornered somewehre in the slums and she'd probably stab me. oh well, dont wanna play that
native olive
she has a respectable job as an innkeeper in one of the capital cities of skyrim and these simps followed her across two provinces because they're bent about something that happened years ago? like omg. get over it already
coral mantle
family honor or something, perhaps. family's name can only be cleansed with that wretches blood (don't wanna be edgy but this is what's going on today irl in my country <.< )
coral mantle
was there any book explaining why nords use mummies in burials? why keep the meat, not like they believe in resurrection
solid path
You mean the draugr in the tombs? It's because the dragon cult was using them as tomb guards.
coral mantle
no no, the 'restful' ones, not the guarding. covered in linen, their organs removed, that stuff. modern nords do that too seemingly, at least in that quest in Winterhold where we inspect body prepared for burial (hm, or did the priest say cremation?)
solid path
Not sure. I was under the impression that they weren't so much mummifying them in the moden era as just burying them because cremation takes a lot of fuel.
coral mantle
hmm yeah, Laelette the vampire is found desacrating her daughter's grave
problem of mummies remain though. redguards keep the stuff because meat is sacred somehow, so i thought maybe ancient nords had sonething similar in mind
split iris
Lore answer: the mummification death rite because a thing at the rise of the dragon cult.
Game answer: lazy thus every undead is a draugr
coral mantle
ought to be some book. ill look it up right after i finish this new skyrim character, tomb raider by trade and get some nap. yes, definitely
balmy salmon
she has a respectable job as an innkeeper in one of the capital cities of skyrim...
If Kematu's story is true, she caused an entire city to fall to the Aldmeri Dominion. For something like that, you can't blame them for holding a grudge for 30 years.
native olive
If Kematu's story is true, she caused an entire city to fall to the Aldmeri Domi...
i don't think he ever explicitly states that. he just said she "sold them out" to the dominion without ever actually specifying what her crime or the fallout was
balmy salmon
She sold the city out to the Aldmeri Dominion. Were it not for her betrayal, Taneth could have held its ground in the war.
gaunt bear
I’ve got a lore question. Yagrum Bagram escaped the Dwarven Disappearance by “not being there”, right?
I’m asking because in my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction, I have planned that the Inquisition discovers, in the Thedas equivalent of Erebor/Moria (which is actually the mountain that Skyhold is on top of) a Dwemer Tonal Architect that managed to escape both the Curse-of-Flesh and the Disappearance because he and his followers opposed tampering with the Heart of Lorkhan to such an extent that they were banished from the Dwemer people as a whole, and traveled to Thedas.
I don’t want to add this unless I know for certain that the disappearance only affected the dwarves IN Mundus. I don’t want to provide food for the trolls, if you catch my drift.
brave shoal
i don't think a dwemer would have been exiled for opposing tinkering with the heart, if i remember many dwemer opposed kagremac's experiments but he ignored them
but if i remember the dwemer in morrowind was spared the other dwemer's fates by being on another plane at the time, its plausible that your dwemer escaped it too if he was exiled in another plane of existence/oblivion
gaunt bear
i don't think a dwemer would have been exiled for opposing tinkering with the he...
I’ve also got down, in my notes, that said Dwemer got into an argument with Kagrenac and it got rather… heated. The exile only happened after quite a few insults and expletives later.
brave shoal
from what i know of dwemer, they where a ''science'' race and debates and such about what if and if we should could be common, especially with the magnitude of kagrenac's plan could entail?
but also i found a ruin in eso where dwemer crafted a base that have an entrance at 3 different place at same time in tamriel and sit outside of nirn. some temporal stasis thing from what i can tell, maybe dwemer exiled your in some sort of dimensional prison (like the ancient rakatan mind prison, but physical for this case, like you can explore in swtor) and he figured a way out to return to tamriel?
the wiki page of the ruin, dont say much beside being in temporal stasis (temporospatial claudication in dwemer fancy words/mage guild)
gaunt bear
from what i know of dwemer, they where a ''science'' race and debates and such a...
I’m glad you’re taking time to discuss things with me. I really appreciate it.
I can say that as part of their “exile”, the Dwemer Tonal Architect (inspired by Javik from the Mass Effect Series) carried out a cross-dimensional experiment that caused him and his followers to end up in Thedas, but because the device was experimental, and thereby “one-way”, they were stuck in Thedas.
The Dwarves took them in at the time, viewing them as kindred spirits, but things went sour for both Dwarves and Dwemer when the Darkspawn began overrunning the Deep Roads. A solution to protect Erebor was implemented, but I won’t say more here to prevent spoilers.
brave shoal
i'm not an expert on the lore since i only started the game with skyrim and now am dabbling in eso casually, though dwemer are one of my favourite thing just annoyed dwemer item are so rare to decorate my house in eso
gaunt bear
I did have an idea in my idea archive about a Dwemer moving house, if you’re interested:
brave shoal
didnt see a thing about moving dwemer house, only a dlc about fighting nside an automate's head and fight his ''cpu'', but for moving dwemer house, for me an airship sound the easy and cool idea since dwemer had those?
gaunt bear
didnt see a thing about moving dwemer house, only a dlc about fighting nside an ...
Just read it fully and carefully.
brave shoal
maybe i missed it, gimme a sec to reread the dwemer subsection
not seeing anything about dwemer moving house. flashback to a talk between a dwemer king and kagrenac, unleashing of dwemer ghost into every ruins, upgraded skillbooks etc
gaunt bear
not seeing anything about dwemer moving house. flashback to a talk between a dwe...
If you can’t find it, here’s a clue:
Look for the words Mzark’s Moving Palace in italics. Also, it’s on the second page. Yes there are two pages.
brave shoal
ah that would be it, only read initial post since i'm online gaming atm too
gaunt bear
ah that would be it, only read initial post since i'm online gaming atm too
Happy to help.
mortal nexus
Is ESO canon to TES lore? Can its events impact TES6?
solid path
Your individual character's actions? Probably not.
The overall storyline? Sure, why not.
mortal nexus
I think it's been said too that there's often hints to the next game, are we more likely to find hints for TES6 in Skyrim or in Elder Scrolls Online? I suppose it's potentially not considered as fully equal to a TES entry, as otherwise the next game would instead be called TES7 and ESO would be "TES6" like how Final Fantasy title their MMOs as numbered entries. ESO would have been titled The Elder Scrolls VI: Online in that case.
pastel sorrel
Is ESO canon to TES lore? Can its events impact TES6?
Yes and potentially. Bear in mind ESO's a long time before the mainline series.
It's a spinoff, that doesn't make it any less of a TES entry, it's just not part of the mainline numbered series and deals with events long before them, some of which would then feed into events in the main series.
robust trout
here's a Q that came up in a friend's stream: can Khajiit purr?
pastel sorrel
here's a Q that came up in a friend's stream: can Khajiit purr?
They can, yes.
robust trout
we were arguing about it in stream - any chance you have a link to lore/wiki that corroborates? 😋
pastel sorrel
It's been weakly implied in some texts, outright confirmed by Schick in an (in-character) interview
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Lawrence_Schick's_Posts
`Do Khajiit purr? (06/19/15)
Rathuni-la Dawnwhisker, Daughter of Azurah, says, “We Khajiiti come in many forms, many ‘furstocks,’ all of them wonderful—and I assure you, under the right circumstances, all of us purr! Purr-haps you haven’t been treating us as sweetly as you should? Try harder, tiger!”`
robust trout
tysm 😋
solid path
OTOH, hearing an Alfiq purr may earn you a death sentence. Especially if you mention it being "cute"...
fierce sable
Let me come back to ESO for a second. A horrible thought has just come to mind: how much interesting/fun/useful lore will I fail to understand in TES VI because I haven't played ESO? Or to put it another way, how much new lore has been added in ESO that might be referenced in the single-player TES VI?
pastel sorrel
Let me come back to ESO for a second. A horrible thought has just come to mind: ...
That is entirely impossible to answer
TES6 isn't out yet
There's plenty of new lore, how much of it comes up is unknown, how much of it is explained for new players is unknown.
fierce sable
I appreciate that we don't know about TES VI. But surely there's some understanding regarding how much new stuff has been added in ESO.
pastel sorrel
ESO has added a ton of stuff, it's still unknown what's going to factor in with TES6.
Not necessarily out of retcons, but "not every single thing need be referenced"
There's always exponentially more stuff in the lore than shows up in gameplay, that's how it's been for every game.
We're not gonna know what shows up until it shows up.
fierce sable
I gave up on MMORPGs after Star Wars Galaxies. I'm not really wanting to play another multiplayer game... but I'm wondering if I have to consider doing so with ESO just to be able to fully appreciate the story of TES VI. Microsoft/Zenimax wouldn't do that to me... would they?
pastel sorrel
There's stuff in the lore prior to TES5 that didn't show up in TES5 itself, there's stuff in ESO that should've shown up in TES5, and the lore's an ever-evolving beast at the end of the day which is why the Tribunal weren't a thing until TES3 for instance
fierce sable
Fair. And I can distinguish between what's "necessary" to know and what's fun to know.
pastel sorrel
Every game's generally been self-contained with the other stories getting mostly references and whatnot
You'll be able to full appreciate those references if you know the source material, events and recurring characters and familiar family names and whatnot
but for instance, TES3 was my first TES game, and strictly speaking it's entirely based around you not knowing what the hell's going on and you can learn about Vvardenfell and beyond just by asking the right people and reading books
see: the mile-long list of conversation options that populates when talking to Savants and such
I'm sure there'll be appropriate references in TES6, but it's still a long time after ESO's time so it'll probably be more the cultural detailing which can easily be explained ingame without needing to've seen it in ESO first.
since by and large the events of ESO's time are lost to history by the time of the mainline games
the Interregnum damaged a lot of records
Likewise for magical knowledge, etc.
fierce sable
My hope is that you're right, and nothing about 1) Zenimax wanting to drive subscribers to ESO or 2) Microsoft wanting to drive subscribers to ESO will require me to have played ESO to fully enjoy TES VI from a lore perspective.
(And yet, now I'm actually considering trying ESO temporarily, dagnabbit!)
pastel sorrel
ESO is free to play for the base game and a couple Chapters. The only subscription is for ESO+, which certainly has good benefits but isn't required, and the DLC's can be purchased individually.
any drive for subscriptions is gonna need to work pretty damn hard to the point of being completely obvious and thus nonfunctional
fierce sable
Thanks for the comments -- this has been really helpful. Much appreciated!
pastel sorrel
The games have never driven players to prior games beyond "this is detailed more in the game that actually handles this"
i.e. you'll know far more about TES3's events and lore in TES3 than any other game.
The focus is always what's actually relevant to that game's story and lore
You shouldn't need to've played ESO to appreciate TES6, most likely it's just you'll be able to appreciate it more if you're already familiar with whatever it talks about.
mortal nexus
Let me come back to ESO for a second. A horrible thought has just come to mind: ...
Well said, this is pretty much what I was wondering.
I just don't have the time to play an MMO, especially when I have modding projects to complete before 
Starfield.
coral mantle
ESO have playable-explorable areas in every province, like Hammerfell, Elsweyr, Valenwood, Summerset, High Rock, Black Marsh. if TES VI is set in any of them, i cant imagine BGS would just ignore everything ZOSes wrote. like languages and stuff, some local customs. actually, they already used some in TES Blades, line "by the Green" told by some woodland pointy eared savage comes from ESO
pastel sorrel
Hell we already know for a fact ESO's had to avoid certain things by BGS's call
So rest assured they're already planning even more stuff for TES6
coral mantle
anyways, folks who dont have time for live service TES game can always read ingame books it provides 👍 bloody good, those
brave shoal
still sad that zenimax wanted to explore dwemer a little more but todd said no 😦
mortal nexus
Makes me wonder if dwemer may have some role in TES 6
brave shoal
my mad dream will always be having them return from where they vanished to. hopeless dream with todd and bethesda atm wanting to keep dwemer magic and mysterious forever but that my one dying wish for the franchise anyway^^'
topaz dome
I want the Dwemer to remain mysterious. I think it would be a mistake to explain, and in the process ruin, one of the most wonderfully tantalizing bits of lore in the series.
brave shoal
i understand that, but me i'm the opposite, a mystery can catch my attention for so long before i lose interest since there will be never a conclusion to it. also i always had a bias for any ''science'' focused group/race, especially in a fantasy setting because they can shake thing so much. though with all the power dwemer had, if they returned they probably could cause more chaos than what tamriel can deal with
and i'd like to see that honestly anyway
coral mantle
ZOS did make Clockwork city, which kinda resembles living and breathing dwemer city, with all that brass and gear worship and stuff. enough for me.. doubt dwemer cities were much different. you know, elves being elves
brave shoal
that the first dlc i sniped in eso, still wonder what dwemer would do since they would interact with tamriel instead of ignoring it entirely
solid path
Let me come back to ESO for a second. A horrible thought has just come to mind: ...
There are plenty of things from earlier ES games that you don't need to know in order to understand things in the later ones - although there may well be books that give information from that period, or references to them (or in this case ESO) that'll be familiar if you have played them.
Maybe characters names, maybe call outs, maybe locations.
solid path
ZOS did make Clockwork city, which kinda resembles living and breathing dwemer c...
I thought that was based on existing lore?
And certainly from Skyrim you find a lot of brass (or rather dwarven metals) going on in Dwemer cities.
sleek grove
I thought that was based on existing lore?
And certainly from Skyrim you find *a...
Correct, well it's complicated. It existed in the first Morrowind DLC. But ESO and Legends expanded it. Sotha Sil reverse engineered Dwemer things to make Clockwork gear. It's essentially Seht's ideal world.
ocean brook
. . .the Dwemer are still seen as mysterious?
quartz shuttle
Yes. People still don't understand how they did what they did, much about the beliefs and social structures, or ultimately what happened to them
There are ideas, sure, but many are conflicting and unclear
quartz shuttle
And, unlike Akavir, the more we learn about the Dwemer the more questions are raised.
ocean brook
ah
mild elbow
khajit meowing would freak me out
dwemer should remain mysterious, it added more depth to exploring underground ruins, thinking there might be a chance at some sort of reveal, but knowing in the back of your mind todd howard would never do that
pastel sorrel
i mean that kind of defeats the point if you know there's gonna be nothing
brave shoal
i had more kick of some vague dwemer phrase translated by hermaeus mora than by dwelling in most ruins normally
robust lintel
@sleek grove Do you think we might see the Dwemer Observatory and star maps again from Stros M'Kai?
sleek grove
<@290972855938580483> Do you think we might see the Dwemer Observatory and star ...
We might if Stros appears. It's the only other Observatory and would be cool to see again
brave shoal
still remember the ''wow, dwemer don't mess around'' when i got some inscription of them translated by hermaeus mora: ''the constellation are gods. they can be brought to earth using aetherium''. like, dwemer be like: those things are god, let smack them down because we can. they dont mess around lol
coral mantle
wait, really? huh, now ESO's Craglorn main story is starting to make sense..
brave shoal
yeah, found a black gem with dwemer writing in a dwemer ruin and had a sidequest to bring it to hermaeus in a knowledge for knowledge exchange
gaunt bear
I’ve got a question for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction.
Dovah are essentially immortal, right? Does a Dragonborn inherit some of that “timelessness”? I’m asking partly because Miraak is seemingly from the Dragon War Era, and I was planning on having my Dragonborn be “111 this coming summer”.
pastel sorrel
I’ve got a question for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction.
Dovah are ...
I mean, seeing as almost every single Dragonborn that's ever lived and hasn't died by more direct means still died of old age complications, probably not
Miraak's probably alive either through Mora's intervention or his own capability as a Dragon Priest, or maybe a bit of both.
robust trout
doesn't Miraak like reconstitute himself from a pile of bones?
pastel sorrel
... no
robust trout
admittedly been a while since I played so I'm probs wrong
pastel sorrel
He's well and truly alive and well the whole time
i feel like you might be thinking of Durnehviir
robust trout
Probably
balmy salmon
People often live much longer in Oblivion because time works differently there. For example, in TES IV, you meet (and kill) an Imperial woman who has lived there for over 1000 years, and in ESO you meet an Ayleid who was alive during Alessia's rebellion.
fluid monolith
What is the fashion like in Atmora?
quartz shuttle
We have no real information regarding that.
sand flume
What is the fashion like in Atmora?
ysgramor hat
quartz shuttle
Closest we get is Draugr armour, and Ysgramor's shield
solid path
One would hope "warm" clothing.
quartz shuttle
Based on the older Nordic styles, if we assume those are accurate to Atmoran styles, it would basically be "Nord, before they caught the Dumb-Fingers"
solid path
Are the Skaal Atmora-related at all?
quartz shuttle
Not clear.
solid path
Maybe Skaal coats for soft armour and Draugr/Ancient Nord for hard armour?
quartz shuttle
They're of Nord stock, but their cultural basis seems significantly different. At least from what we see in-game, in some OOG texts ancient Nord myths reference the same names for entities.
Possible. Also depends on how cold Atmora was at the time, and how cold resistant Nords and Atmorans really are
fluid monolith
Thanks.
solid path
About 50% isn't it? 😛
quartz shuttle
Hey, 50% there is better than 0% there
golden sierra
Are the Skaal Atmora-related at all?
most evidence, to my knowledge, points to Skaal religion being an incredibly, incredibly ancient Atmoran religion. there's this sort of progression of:
- 2 main primordial gods (the All-Maker and the Adversary)
to - a full totemic pantheon representing all the 8+1 with a bit more emphasis on the ideas of the individual gods than the idea of the universe at whole, yet still keeping the gods as inhuman, kind of abstract entities
to - a full, personified pantheon (complete with names!) representing the 8+1 with a bit more emphasis on the personality of the gods and relating them to humans more easily
that's what i recall from one of the lectures i received on the subject, at least
i thiiink that chances are the Skaal were a fringe group that moved down from Atmora, perhaps post-Ysgramor (i doubt pre-Ysgramor, but perhaps contemporary to Ysgramor) carrying one of the oldest versions of Atmoran (or even mortal) religion with them and ended up settling Solstheim. i would have to research the topic more fully or talk to one of the folks i trust with lore to make a more decisive or educated statement though, sorry
either way, chances are they're Atmoran in origin
hell, it's even possible, now that i think about it, that the Skaal arrived in Solstheim completely separate from the other Atmorans and that Solstheim was never part of Skyrim in the first place, or had already split from Skyrim (or, possibly but far less likely, Morrowind)
brave shoal
i think the high king of skyrim donated the island to morrowind to give the dark elve somewhere to go after the erruption?
golden sierra
yeppers
that is what happened. Solstheim interestingly lines up well with Morrowind's coast, which is what i was alluding to there. realistically i think it's unlikely Solstheim was ever part of Morrowind or Morrowind's location up until Skyrim's High King gave it to 'em
pastel sorrel
What is the fashion like in Atmora?
The only examples we have left are the draugr, by extension the Ancient Nordic set
and they only account for the Nordic ancestors. The Skaal designs may or may not be traditional for their own heritage.
I'm certainly inclined to accept Adam Adamowicz's concept art as further lore on the subject though, since they're all similar designs that could logically also exist
fallen panther
Lol some of those notes are gold
dusky scaffold
there were actually two oblivion teasers
I don'T remember anything about skyrim from oblivion specifically
native olive
From M'aiq the Liar in Oblivion:
"I have seen dragons. Perhaps you will see a dragon. I won't say where I saw one. Perhaps I did not."
Also iirc there was a nod to both the Oblivion Crisis and Alduin's return in Morrowind
dusky scaffold
I remember two nods to Oblivion, but nothing specific about alduin
other than his existence
and the Dragon line from M'aiq was most likely just a nod to his Morrowind line: "Dragons? Oh, they're everywhere! You must fly very high to see most of them, though. The ones nearer the ground are very hard to see, being invisible."
you sure?
native olive
Ehhhh, I'd be willing to put more stock in the Oblivion line foreshadowing Skyrim because it does feel a little more pointed, but obviously we don't know for sure
coral mantle
original idea for the dragons was Uriel V returns from Akavir wuth a bunch of dragons, not Alduin and stuff
solid path
Could be interesting. Probably better suited for an East Coast game though.
coral mantle
and i thought i had a screenshot from Oblivion with NPC gossip, something about Uriel V.. but no, can't find it now ._ . must have imagined
solid path
Perhaps when we get "Black Marsh"?
native olive
Also apparently there's a line from one of the Blades after the main quest that's something to the effect of them now "biding their time until the next Dragonborn rises" which. Yeah
dusky scaffold
You know, in Redguard's intro, there were several books shown, with titles corresponding to TES games
There was Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, ...
The fifth book was named something like "Romanella"
(remember that Redguard was released before Morrowind)
slender latch
and i thought i had a screenshot from Oblivion with NPC gossip, something about ...
You might be thinking of the nerevarine going to Akavir. The screenshot was from the less generic NPC mod. A few years ago it was circulating as an official line due to an article.
dusky scaffold
the Nerevarine going to Akavir is an official line
coral mantle
mod? definitely not, havent used that since forever, and even then mods i used were.. er.. of different nature
dusky scaffold
there was some modded line that circulated as official foreshadowing from Morrowind, though
slender latch
The line I oblivion is official but I’m referring to morrowind
This is the fake line I’m referring to
dusky scaffold
yeah, that's the fake one
sleek grove
^
solid path
Yes but no but yes. 😐
sand flume
im trying to think of any actually significant lore implications of creation club
theres the link between the silver hand and the vigil of stendarr, but thats just kind of common sense anyways, that they would help eachother out
is the presence of a dwemer crown in vardnknd significant at all?
solid path
There are a few possible implications of certain items being in Skyrim at all.
Umbra (from what I understand) was thought destroyed and its power reclaimed by Vile... until CC changed that.
Wraithguard and Sunder wandering around Skyrim is unusual to say the least.
The Divine Crusader (Knights of the Nine) armour being worn by bandits is lore breaking.
sand flume
There are a few possible implications of certain items being in Skyrim at all.
tbf thats the same with all artifacts that appeared in previous games
artifacts generally have a theme of appearing and disappearing when they want to
solid path
Sure, but they're significant lore implications.
sand flume
The Divine Crusader (Knights of the Nine) armour being worn by bandits is lore breaking.
this is definitely contradicting to oblivion, but one of them has literally been "reforged" so it can easily be justified if they were tampered with (alternatively the mechanic just doesnt exist in skyrim)
sand flume
Sure, but they're *significant lore implications*.
i wouldnt call it significant
solid path
Eh. A daedric artifact thought to have been destroyed and reabsorbed by the owner turns out to be active in the world?
That's fairly important.
So is armour that actively falls off if you've violated the rules of conduct of the 9 being happy to stay on bandits.
That last means that something significant has changed with them, if that's canon.
sand flume
Eh. A daedric artifact thought to have been destroyed and reabsorbed by the owner turns out to be active in the world?
That's fairly important.
its nothing new though, especially with something like umbra which is described as sentient
native olive
If he reabsorbed it why could he not theoretically just. Make another
solid path
They're the ones that stand out as possibly significant to me anyway.
Maybe the Staff of Sheogorath, but I've not encountered that to know if it's the Staff, or a Staff.
sand flume
artifacts appearing really isnt significant to the overall lore
solid path
Then what is significant to you?
sand flume
destruction of the dark brotherhood, because that could very well affect the next game
solid path
So that chapter house of the DB is destroyed.
It's not like there aren't/can't be others elsewhere that could recreate it.
There's even a certain ghost hanging around who could refound it if he tried hard enough and found someone to talk to.
sand flume
it's still significant, because it's continuing the downward spiral the brotherhood was already in
solid path
Sure. But does it matter at all to the branch in, say, Hammerfell?
Especially since the assorted branches are mostly autonomous.
sand flume
hammerfell branches have already collapsed iirc
solid path
At least as far as "affecting the next game" goes?
sand flume
12th of Rain's Hand, 4E 187
Cheydinhal suits me. With the destruction or abandonment of the other Sanctuaries, our contracts are plentiful, as are our bonuses.
Still, we seem to be losing our footholds throughout Tamriel at an alarming rate. There are rumors that the Black Hand is split on our continued direction. Some favor expansion, the others consolidation.
My personal feeling is that the Dark Brotherhood needs to, at the very least, maintain the illusion of being everywhere at once. It has become exceedingly difficult to fulfill (or even establish) contracts in provinces where we no longer have a physical presence, like Hammerfell. The more we ignore Tamriel, the more people lose faith in the Dark Brotherhood - our power, our services, our dedication to the Void.
solid path
And of course if they have already collapsed, then the plotline for them would, logically, be setting up the branch in the province regardless of how Skyrim's branch made out.
sand flume
this is significant lore that Skyrim tells us about how the brotherhood's doing
undoubtably more significant than an artifact appearing, when it can still easy appear in the next game if it needs to
alternatively it can stay in Skyrim, and that's not significant
solid path
Well, the Dark Brotherhood can "easily" still appear in the next game, just by one of the other provinces having sent someone there to re-establish their physical presence. That applies whether Skyrim's branch was wiped out or only damaged.
It's stiill being built up from effectively zero.
sand flume
It's stiill being built up from effectively zero.
yes... It has to be built up from zero because of skyrims lore
if it doesn't appear in the next game that's because Skyrim killed it
if it does appear in the next game it will have to talk about the ruined state it's in
solid path
I must be misunderstanding you here.
I thought you were looking for gameplay based significance, not "already written into the lore" significance.
sand flume
we were talking about lore significance from the start weren't we?
solid path
Also, can I just check the source on that entry?
solid path
OK. So a couple of points here.
He's as mad as a box of frogs, and not the most... reliable of individuals.
Now I need to read it more thoroughly, so it might take me a moment.
sand flume
That's before he became mad
the journal slowly delves into his madness
It's a very good read
that quote was from the first volume, he's not mad at all there (beyond the necessary madness to be a murderer)
anyways I need to go to sleep now so if you make any points I'll prob respond in the morning :P
solid path
I think my problem is that whilst the Sanctuaries have fallen, that doesn't mean all of the members of those Sanctuaries died - so there could in fact be multiple competing Dark Brotherhoods 10, 20 years down the line each founded by someone thinking themselves the sole survivor, especially if the last "legitimate" stronghold was lost (taking the "Destroy the Dark Brotherhood" route as canon).
Or with previous "splits", there could already be a parallel DB that Cicero didn't know about.
Some will depend on the time span between Skyrim and VI of course. If it's 5 years down the line there's probably not been time to train one new House, let alone to start to open up others; but if it's 20 years or so that might be enough time to establish a couple of independent Houses so that the Brotherhood can begin to rise again.
Alternatively survivors from "destroyed" Houses could have come together somewhere to reform. Sure, Cicero claims there were no survivors, but that could simply be no survivors he knew of, with any survivors laying low and potentially not knowing how to find the Skyrim branch or being unable to reach there in time to also be there when it falls. Certainly if a Sanctuary were inevitably going to fall, I would be tempted to tell anyone who could escape to do so and rebuild when it was safe to do so and not to lead the attackers to the other Sanctuaries by fleeing there immediately.
sand flume
I'd be pretty annoyed if the next game came along and the dark brotherhood was operating completely normally with no mention of its previous collapse
golden sierra
You might be thinking of the nerevarine going to Akavir. The screenshot was from...
wait, Nerevarine going to Akavir is a modded line?!
oh nvm
i got it now, sorry, i misunderstood. my bad, sorry for the ping 
Creation Club content has this semi-canon state. it's somewhere between in-game books and out-of-game in-universe sources. imo, to put it a bit more simply, if one thing contradicts another thing and they can't be easily reconciled, the thing higher on this list takes priority:
- in-game, seen with own eyes
- in-game, book (or imo dialogue, for some reason some people think dialogue is higher-rated than books but i don't get that. point is, something that makes you a secondary source or worse)
- CC content (seen with own eyes)
- CC content, book/dialogue
- out-of-game content
there are various tiers within each of these (is the source you're reading a primary source? secondary? worse? who wrote the source? what was the intent of the source? etc etc etc, it's kind of like trying to read historical documents in a way), and just because it's higher on the list doesn't mean it automatically wins (see the last set of parentheses, and also consider that sometimes two things that appear at first to contradict might not, in fact, contradict... or they do contradict and both are true, which also happens sometimes), but it works for a super basic rule of thumb
if you'd like sources on this, lmk and i'll plop 'em into chat, but i don't wanna fill it up even more with just one topic/message
pastel sorrel
From Cartogriffi, a community manager in charge of the CC.
who says the CC won't be a thing anymore?
I don't know who that is
I've certainly never heard any official statement saying it
gaunt bear
I’ve got a question about Dwemer culture for something I’m planning for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls.
Is becoming derangedly obsessed with unlocking the secrets of “purposely shaping life using Alteration magic” grounds for being banished from Dwemer society?
I’m asking because at one point, the Inquisitor and Dragonborn get send back through time to the Dragon War, and meet such a Dwemer Mage-Scientist who had been taken in by the Dragon Cult because Alduin was using him to get an army of spirit/mortal hybrids (‘shiftlings’), but he’s got a higher purpose in mind (unraveling the secrets of life). He’s been getting around Alduin’s demands by giving him his rejects while keeping back one “perfect” (in his opinion) soldier for himself.
pastel sorrel
I’ve got a question about Dwemer culture for something I’m planning for my Drago...
We have zero information on that. Dwemer culture is a great big question mark by and large.
gaunt bear
We have zero information on that. Dwemer culture is a great big question mark by...
So we’ll just say ‘unknown due to ‘shattered time’.’, okay. I do have down that he IS a bit of a fanatic about it.
uncut hatch
You could just make up what the dwemer were doing tbh
Like, no one knows what they were planning so why not just make it up?
pastel sorrel
@gaunt bear I will say, being particularly concerned with the mechanics of life doesn't really strike me as Dwemeri. They were focused on machinery and creation of their own god, not the less-than-divine mortal lives they themselves were forced to lead.
gaunt bear
<@!446471248885841920> I will say, being particularly concerned with the mechani...
I’ll say that THAT was the overall goal, everyone can have hobbies. I also DID say that he was suffering from ‘deranged obsession’.
New question: The mission Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts involves the Inquisition entering the Great Game of (Politics in) Orlais to prevent Empress Celine (of Orlais) from getting assassinated.
I’m also saying that Mephala takes such an interest in the Great Game that she decides to become a new player, utilizing her Morag Tong. Is this something Mephala would do?
https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Orlais#Culture_and_society
gaunt bear
@uncut hatch She’ll only reveal herself near the end, but I won’t spoil it for you.
valid kestrel
There is any book with the lore in general?
uncut hatch
Like real world books?
There’s the Skyrim and eso books that have all the lore books in them, and there’s multiple pocket guides to the empire that exist. There’s also the infernal city books too
valid kestrel
Ok, thks
slender latch
There’s the Skyrim and eso books that have all the lore books in them, and there...
It doesn’t have all the lore books only a curated few of them.
steel thorn
Here is an interesting bit of lore for you from games. Nocturnal is known one place as Urdra (first of the dra) instead of Daedra in one writing. She also has one title that's Daughter of Twilight. Nir from the creation myth documents, was described as the interplay between light and darkness. Possibly that could be interpreted as Twilight. I think there is a possibly that Nocturnal is actual Nir's daughter, formed when her blood was spilled first, and not actually an Adra or Daedra prince, but just hides among the Daedra to keep her true origins a secret.
dusky scaffold
Ur-dra means something like "first daedra", as far as I know
and isn't the interplay of light and darkness just the Aurbis, the "grey maybe"?
weak solstice
Ur-dra and Ur-daedra are supposedly different things
both Nocturnal and Namira are called Ur-dra, and they both are related to the Dark Heart and Lorkhan's absence of a heart
Hermaeus Mora is called Ur-Daedra, and in a different text he is called "elder than Ada"
uncut hatch
ur-dra?
never heard of that
interesting new thing
kinda complicating things though
gaunt bear
Quick question before work: In my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction, once Skyhold has a proper Mages’ Tower, a rift will open to the College of Winterhold. What would the inhabitants there think of the Inquisitor’s Anchor? Not just the teachers, but also the Augur of Dunlain?
The Anchor: https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Anchor
native olive
I meeeaaaaan...
The majority of College scholars are kinda morons and/or not well-versed in metaphysical ailments/paraphernalia. The inhabitants of the college would probably find it fascinating and confusing in the same way they'd find a Dwemer automaton fascinating and confusing. They would likely not have the intellectual wherewithal to actually understand what a massive deal the anchor is. The Augur however would probably be able to correctly identify it as an exceedingly powerful artifact (possibly even identifying it as originating from another dimension/universe/however you're justifying this crossover), though he still would likely have little insight into what it actually is, where it came from, what it's used for, etc. I mean the vast majority of characters in DA:I weren't even clear on what the anchor was, I doubt rural scholars from another universe would have any better of an understanding
solid path
The Psijjics might try to steal it if it's even vaguely stealable, in line with their habit of trying to get powerful and dangerous stuff out of other people's hands.
native olive
The Psijjics might try to steal it if it's even vaguely stealable, in line with ...
That was a very good joke
gaunt bear
The Psijjics might try to steal it if it's even vaguely stealable, in line with ...
They can’t. It’s permanent.
gaunt bear
The majority of College scholars are kinda morons and/or not well-versed in meta...
I’m just going with the DA:I lore, but Corypheus said, at Haven, that he created it to “storm the heavens themselves”.
native olive
I’m just going with the DA:I lore, but Corypheus said, at Haven, that he created...
I mean we know what it's for because we've played the game, and Cory knows because he "made it" (he didn't). But both of those things predicate on having a lot of insight into the real esoteric aspects of Thedas. Nirn inhabitants will likely be able to glean nothing beyond "this is probably powerful"
Also iirc the only people in the entire game that have a substantial amount of insight into the anchor are Cory and ||Solas||
gaunt bear
I mean _we_ know what it's for because we've played the game, and _Cory_ knows b...
That’ll explain why the Thalmor will attack the Inquisition at Skyhold, only to fail (I won’t spoil it too much).
solid path
They can’t. It’s permanent.
Hey, c'mon. I said try.
It's not like the Inquisitor is that attached to their hand.
native olive
Hey, c'mon. I said *try*.
It's not like the Inquisitor is *that* attached to ...
You’re on fire today
gaunt bear
Hey, c'mon. I said *try*.
It's not like the Inquisitor is *that* attached to ...
@solid path Inquisitor Trevelyan: * reasonably * “Well I’ll tell you how it’s going to be. If you want the Anchor, you’ll have to cut my hand off. And I’ll tell you something else for free: I’m not going to just lay down and let you take it, I’ll be obliged to defend myself.
Also, one doesn’t become Inquisitor without developing a very particular set of skills over a relatively short career, skills that make me a nightmare for the forces of evil. Take your best shot, but I’ll defend myself.
solid path
😄
gaunt bear
On a different subject, I’d like to know how Hermaeus Mora would react to Maxwell’s travel forward (by a year), and back through time.
I’ve already said that Max sided with the Mages, and as a side traveled a year forward in time, to a dark future where Corypheus was triumphant, but also managed to escape back.
I’ve already said that he’s taken an interest it, but that’s about it.
uncut hatch
Hey all I want you to know I figured out why the dwarves will never be in an elder scrolls game.... It's because in terms of the deep lore ... they are playtesters. That is all.
ocean brook
dies
ocean brook
the words are etched onto my soul for all time
. . . assume I just wrote something in all caps, because the filter won't allow me to post such
quartz shuttle
Lol
ocean brook
wise fwom your gwave!
quartz shuttle
34 years old. Been playing that game since...1993?
To date, have only ever beaten it once
gaunt bear
Mundus IS the Void.
I’m a Tenno. I’ve been IN the Void. And let me tell you, Mundus is nothin like the Void.
quartz shuttle
I've never played Warframe, so not sure of they're just referring to Space, but even i get what a Tenno is.
gaunt bear
I've never played Warframe, so not sure of they're just referring to Space, but ...
I’m a noodlehead and you’re not. Ha ha.
uncut hatch
Apart from Talos worship, what other things do the Thalmor really hate?
sleek grove
Anything that isn't Altmer
sleek grove
What's a Pinapple? And more importantly, What's a Pizza?
brave shoal
something worth purging from this world /s
gaunt bear
A while back, I asked (for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction) what the College of Winterhold would think of the Anchor, and I got a good answer. However, I didn’t get an answer for what someone like Phinis Gestor and Drevis Neldoren (did I spell that right?).
ocean brook
the Mundus, I think - they seem keen on unmaking the world and going back to the Dawn?
gaunt bear
the Mundus, I think - they seem keen on unmaking the world and going back to the...
Inquisitor Trevelyan (from my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction): Not if I or the Inquisition can help it.
ocean brook
you've my permission to kick their tails until they're top over teekettle 🙂
gaunt bear
you've my permission to kick their tails until they're top over teekettle 🙂
- doing my best Robert De Niro impression *: Are you talking to me?
ocean brook
lol
ocean brook
that was a yes, Inquisitor; luck to you on your crusade against the Thalmor
gaunt bear
that was a yes, Inquisitor; luck to you on your crusade against the Thalmor
A crusade ‘in self-defense’, since they’ll be after the Anchor for its power. Though if we’re going by Dragon Age lore, it’ll be an ‘Exalted March’.
ocean brook
I'm sure the Thalmor claim self defense for their own crusade against the mannish races
our very existence, and the existence of Talos, traps them in an existence they despise, keeping them from escaping back into the Dawn and reassuming their original forms
gaunt bear
I'm sure the Thalmor claim self defense for their own crusade against the mannis...
If that’s the way they’ll fight, their attack on Skyhold will be declared an act of “oath-breaking”, to use an Avvar term.
ocean brook
be careful about this, if you're looking to meld the lore of two worlds into one story
the Thalmor's reasoning depends deeply on the cosmology of Nirn, on the metaphysical laws and the history of the divine as is established there
to do them proper justice, you must be able to look at the world they're in, and be able to see it from their perspective - even if it means squinting and downing a lot of tequilla first
gaunt bear
to do them proper justice, you must be able to look at the world they're in, and...
Don’t like tequila. But I do know that they’ll be interested in the Anchor for what it can do (open and close fade rifts), by that I mean see only what they want to see, and not care about it being permanently “attached” to the Inquisitor’s left hand.
ocean brook
logical; they'd see you as a lesser being, and thus "unworthy" of the power of the anchor
that's the problem when you let your thinking be driven by a need to be better than everyone else
gaunt bear
logical; they'd see you as a lesser being, and thus "unworthy" of the power of t...
Inquisitor Trevelyan, with perfect honesty: I would not declare an Exalted March on the Aldmeri Dominion unless I have no other choice. The Inquisition’s main purpose is to restore order to a world gone mad, but if the Aldmeri Dominion choose to oppose me, any righteous judgment I rain down on their heads will be their responsibility, not mine.
One good reason why: Logistics.
ocean brook
logistics?
gaunt bear
Do you know how difficult it is to wage war? From transporting siege engines and their ammo, to food, to maintaining supply lines:
ocean brook
I'm pretty sure in Tamriel war logistics are handled by sending a mage to do a whooping tap dance across a quay
gaunt bear
I'm pretty sure in Tamriel war logistics are handled by sending a mage to do a w...
… huh?
north valley
The Elder Scrolls 6: Sheograth does it again
ocean brook
that was a gentle jab at the - sometimes lacking - knowledge of logistics possessed by the devs at times
not that mine is any better, mind
gaunt bear
I will say this though about the future Inquisition-Dominion conflict: When the Thalmor attempt to cut off the supply of Inquisition recruits at Gryphon Wing Keep, they won’t really be ready for the Western Approach:
Also, I’m going to guess that this way of thinking leads the Thalmor to capture a Hurlock Alpha for “questioning”, only to learn the hard way why that’s a bad idea:
ocean brook
the Thalmor are generally arrogant, yes
that said, they're not stupid; they managed to root out all the Blade agents in their territory and kill them without the Empire being the wiser
gaunt bear
that said, they're not stupid; they managed to root out all the Blade agents in ...
Stupid, no. Driven, yes. Especially since their attack on Skyhold, I have planned, will be ||the worst defeat the Aldmeri Dominion ever faced, ever||.
Also, I’m sure anyone who hasn’t encountered Darkspawn will be intrigued when one of them speaks.
quartz shuttle
Stupid, no. Driven, yes. Especially since their attack on Skyhold, I have planne...
Well, i mean... anyone attacking Skyhold would be an idiot. There's no way to approach that castle safely, nowhere to set up siege equipment, and only one way in and out.
Better to seige it and starve them out.
Kinda my pet peeve with fictional medieval seiges... no general in his right mind would attack something like Skyhold. You'd cut off its supplies and just wait it out.
gaunt bear
Well, i mean... anyone attacking Skyhold would be an idiot. There's no way to ap...
Sure, but the Thalmor don’t know it.
quartz shuttle
A simple observation of the area would tell any competent general that an assault would be unreasonable.
Not that these sorts of criticisms are going to bother most people.
solid path
Well, i mean... anyone attacking Skyhold would be an idiot. There's no way to ap...
If you can't set up siege equipment, how do you actually put the place under siege?
Blocking access is one thing, but it still requires some siege equipment to do that. Remember siege equipment isn't just the ladders, towers, and assorted devices for throwing large rocks.
If there's only one way in and out (doubtful, since most castles in that situation have at least small back door routes to allow for messages to get when under siege), then you set up your siege equipment and siege encampment on that route, preferably overlooking it rather than in it if it's a narrow pass.
quartz shuttle
Skyhold is situated on a rocky plateau in the middle ig a jagged and barren ravine, accesed only by a bridge connecting to a mountain pass
solid path
Great. So assuming the ravine isn't too wide, you invest it with siege engines on the edges of the ravine to lob stuff into the castle.
You set other engines up to target the bridge with small stuff so that if they try to come out to break the siege you batter them with fist sized rocks and sheaves of arrows.
You would mostly leave the towers and ladders behind though for that scenario.
quartz shuttle
It does likely have other access points cut into the rock, but the ability to move any real ampunt of supplies through any hidden entrances would be limited.
So, its only real acess is the bridge, and the valley path leading to it.
solid path
Oooh. Now that becomes simpler, depending on the width of that bridge. That's a textbook example that's begging for the covered ram to be used.
Not easy, but these things never are.
quartz shuttle
If memory serves, they have a steel portcullis
solid path
More realistically though, I have to ask "Why take it in the first place?".
Just break the bridge and take over the land around it. It's useless if the bridge is gone, unless they can gradually withdraw the garrison through whatever escape tunnels they have.
quartz shuttle
Which is its self absurd, mind you
Yeah. And its in the middle of nowhere.
But this is the problem i have with a lot of Fantasy Castles. They don't make sense when you think about them.
solid path
The nearest "legendary" equivalent I can think of (Tintagel for the King Arthur stuff) at least had personal reasons for Uther to want to get in there rather than just breaking the bridge and declaring it a done deal.
quartz shuttle
Castles were built in populated lands, often along trade routes or in the centre of regional fiefdoms. They served a purpose, they weren't just big investments on fortifications in the middle of nowhere
solid path
It doesn't even look like it works as a border castle.
quartz shuttle
It's technically on the border if Orlais and Fereldan, but so far off the beaten path people don't even remember it exists
You find it after the church you're based at is overrun and you have to flee into the mountains
solid path
I mean, it might be fine if the valley was lush arable farmland, and there was a secondary entrance to that valley (some sort of winding, defensible pathway). Or if it was protecting an extensive mining operation in the wall of the valley.
I've not played the games, so how much magic is there in that setting?
quartz shuttle
Lots, and in the distant past it was an Elven stronghold due to the magical power of the area
But the human fortification there now is unrelated to that
solid path
I also note the world's most useless drawbridge.
It folds down from covering the portcullis straight onto the stone pier/walkway that comes from the other side... and that joins onto the castle.
Cool. So breaking the bridge by magic is a possibility rather than having to do it the traditional way with large rocks?
quartz shuttle
Yes
It is your typical Fantasy Castle. Which looks super impressive... unless you know anything about Castles.
solid path
Yeah, someone has taken "defensible hilltop" too far.
It's suffering the same problem the College does in Skyrim. Whilst there are advantages to having only one path to come over to take the castle, it also means you can be rendered very much irrelevant, very easily.
quartz shuttle
Well, i suspect the College wasn't always so isolated
At one point, it was probably more like the birdges of Edinburgh
solid path
There's also that if it's intended as the College from the beginning it doesn't have to worry about sieges so much. 😄
quartz shuttle
Yeah
gaunt bear
There’s just one other thing to consider. The Frostback Mountains are home to Avvar tribes, and they won’t take too kindly to trespassers.
Another thing to consider is that Skyhold is built on the ruins of a site sacred to the ancient Dalish elves. While I can’t remember the name too well, its translated name is “Where the Sky was held back”. So there might be ancient magic there that’ll prove useful.
I’ve also got planned that the Thalmor are going to suffer what I call the “Battle of Chancellorsville mistake”, which can be boiled down to one easy thing: The worst thing you can do in warfare is be wildly successful, because it leads to overconfidence and eventually terrible defeat.
quartz shuttle
There’s just one other thing to consider. The Frostback Mountains are home to Av...
Even before the Dalish, it was Solas's fortress when he was the Dread Wolf. Based on the Dalish name, i suspect it's where he created The Veil and sealed away the other Elven gods.
unkempt tide
Hello, a reminder to please keep on topic! You are free to discuss this in #off-topic
gaunt bear
Hello, a reminder to please keep on topic! You are free to discuss this in <#784...
Ok. I was done discussing it anyway.
keen briar
quartz shuttle
https://twitter.com/IceFireWarden/status/1445047880528633863?s=19
OI! Take care of yourself!
gaunt bear
Quick question about “Dragonborn Status” for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction before bed:
In it, in a kind of noodle incident, a desire demon tries to seduce Matthias (the Dragonborn) in his dreams, only to find him more than she bargained for. As a result, she gets pulled into the mortal/waking world after swelling/blowing up like Violet Beauregard. When interrogated, she can only answer, due to being half-blissed out, “Bi-bi-bi-buh-big! H-h-huge! M-monster! Buh-biggest male I ever saw!” This causes Dorian to break out laughing when he realizes that this is a desire demon suffering from ‘a distinct case of overeating’.
——
So my question is, would this be something that would happen to a Dragonborn?
pastel sorrel
Quick question about “Dragonborn Status” for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fan...
Not really sure what you're asking, to be honest.
ocean brook
the Dragonborn has no intrinsic qualities of being smoking hawt, beyond what is usual for your typical world-saving protagonists
not unless you are attributing the realm of fertility to Kyne, due to her being the Widow of Shor, or for being the breath of the world - and thus the one who regulates our 'stamina'
quartz shuttle
That said, their soul, which is honestly what a Desire Demon would be more interested in, does seem to have a grander quality to it. Especiallt if they've absorbed numerous Dragons.
Whatecer component of the soul grants those qualities, however, does not seem persist after death. The Dragonborn in Sovengarde just seem normal.
gaunt bear
That said, their soul, which is honestly what a Desire Demon would be more inter...
That’s what I thought.
gaunt bear
not unless you are attributing the realm of fertility to Kyne, due to her being ...
I only realized now what you meant, and couldn’t stop laughing.
ocean brook
you're welcome 🙂
gaunt bear
A new question I’ve got for my fanfiction:
In the Here Lies the Abyss section, The Inquisitor and Dragonborn gets unexpected aid from Vaermina against the Nightmare (a fear demon that fed on the “Fear of the Blight” for a thousand years), but gets sidetracked by the Dark Vestige, who’s bitter about the people of Thedas giving Andraste credit for HIS deeds, magnified by a curse that Molag Bal placed on him, and sees the Anchor as a chance for REVENGE.
My question is, would Vaermina aid the Inquisition against the Nightmare, or not.
ocean brook
so long as there's suffecient reward in it for her, I imagine she'd be willing to help - indirectly
if this Nightmare is directly competing with her for the nightmares of mortals, for example
gaunt bear
if this Nightmare is directly competing with her for the nightmares of mortals, ...
You bet your sweet bippy it is. He even calls himself “our (your) every fear brought to life.” and is even powerful enough to directly steal mortal memories. Vaermina might even consider it a threat to her power.
ocean brook
well there you go, then
uncut hatch
I hear a rumor but it seems implausible, but apparently the Dragonborn is considered a myth by the time the next Elder Scrolls game comes out, so anything we did in Skyrim is going to be fuzzy at best
Are people in Tamriel prone to such amnesia events? 🙂
robust lintel
And when the world remembers ..that world will cease to be
pastel sorrel
I hear a rumor but it seems implausible, but apparently the Dragonborn is consid...
That's an entirely baseless rumor, we've heard nothing about what's going on post-TES5.
solid path
To be honest, it could be during the Dragonborn's lifetime, and them be considered a myth in another province.
dusky scaffold
they don't need to be a myth, just need to be absent and removed enough so that their actions don't interfere with whereever TES6 is taking place
gaunt bear
Got another question about a Daedric Prince and the Inquisition:
Peryite is the not only the Daedric prince of Pestilence, but also of the “proper order”. So would he take an interest in the Inquisition’s actions/goals of “restoring order to a world gone mad”?
robust lintel
Kalpa
quartz shuttle
I hear a rumor but it seems implausible, but apparently the Dragonborn is consid...
Most likely, they will be a real historical figure whose actions ahve become obfuscated by different versions of events and retellings, and whose ultimate fate remains unkonown.
pastel sorrel
Got another question about a Daedric Prince and the Inquisition:
Peryite is the...
Not necessarily? He handles natural orders, notably the progression of diseases for instance.
He's the janitor, not the CEO.
quartz shuttle
Not necessarily? He handles natural orders, notably the progression of diseases ...
He seems to oversee 'Decay' as a concept. A big part of his role is ensuring the proper degredation of things, such as Daedrons
pastel sorrel
In the sense of "this is what they're supposed to do", yes, as opposed to the decay of Namira's hunger.
Though it could be the two work in tandem.
quartz shuttle
Yeah
pastel sorrel
actually if i recall it's not just that they're "supposed" to degrade, but rather it's basically nuclear waste disposal
he breaks them down before they cause problems
quartz shuttle
I don't think the two are entirely seperate ideas
He makes sure htey decay like they're supposed to, otherwise there are significant ocnsequences
plain ibex
Would the Good Skooma Pipe act like a bong or a tobacco pipe? If neither, how does it work?
solid path
Looks like it could work as a hookah.
burn/vaporise the skooma in the top section, push it through the silver pipes into the bottom of the bulb at the bottom where it can cool just a touch to then inhale through the yellow pipe.
But that's speculation.
plain ibex
burn/vaporise the skooma in the top section, push it through the silver pipes in...
Could you do the same with tobacco instead of marijuana? I think that's how it works with regular smoking pipes, just bongs without the cooling, right? If so, that's definitely being used in the mod I hope to make, the option of using Skooma or Tobacco imported from Cyrodiil...
solid path
As far as I'm aware that's how hookah / shisha pipes work.
plain ibex
Good to know. Thank you.
oak crag
Fudgemuppet's new "Bretons" podcast makes me hope we'll see Bjoulsae horsemen as a culture that is clearly distinct from the boring medieval european Bretons in TES VI. Even if the game is solely set in Hammerfell they could appear in the north of the map.
Their description in the UESP makes them sound pretty similar to Reachfolk with fur and bone fashion but I think they could be updated to be appear less like hostile forsworn and more like horse-lord Celts
gaunt bear
Quick lore question for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction before bed:
How would Dagna react to Kagrenac’s tools, since I’m planning on having Matthias present them to her after he obtains them.
valid kestrel
Did Talos actually become a god or it's just common believe?
sand flume
he became a god yes
pastel sorrel
Quick lore question for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction before bed:
...
You're asking more about DA lore than TES lore at that point
which, you're not really gonna find as much help with in the BGS Discord of all places :v
robust lintel
Just curious, have they ever crossed an orc with a khajiit? Was trying to picture that 🤣
gaunt bear
Just curious, have they ever crossed an orc with a khajiit? Was trying to pictur...
- tries to envision a Khajiit-Orc hybrid * * brain crashes two seconds into the attempt *
solid path
I was under the impression that man and mer have been shown to breed, but the beast races have not been shown to do so with either.
pastel sorrel
I was under the impression that man and mer have been shown to breed, but the be...
Couples with beast races are rare and ill-documented. We don't know that they can't.
robust lintel
Fury swipes (khajiit claws) mixed with berserker rage 😳
brave shoal
all i know is that one imperial research book that seem to point all mer can breed and couple report include beastfolks too but those 2 (khajiit and argonian) arent well documented to 100% prove it. otherwise only thing of note is all mixed baby seem to be based on mother's race with rarely some features of the father's
dusky scaffold
it's the mother's race in most cases, not all
quartz shuttle
Yeah, Notes on Racial Phylogeny really doesn't say what many people online seem to think it says.
Not only does it not indicate its always the mothers race (just usually) but it outright addresses the possibility of Man/Mer-Beast Race pairings, and even pairings with Daedra.
So, it basically says 'Anything goes, but people usually stick to those most familiar to them.
brave shoal
sorry for the ''all'', was going off memory >.>
quartz shuttle
Its ok, it gets parroted so much online that it all blends together. I've made thre same mistake a few times
golden sierra
Not only does it not indicate its always the mothers race (just usually) but it ...
it only somewhat addresses the possibility with a flimsy "we failed to find proof" (absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence), and as far as i'm aware - aside from the super flimsy possibility of Mankar Camoran (who, in my experience, is believed to have been born Bosmer but changed his race with the Razor) and the possibility of Alessia's son (who could easily be an exception because Morihaus is Ada) - we have no evidence that goes against the idea of the mother being the one who grants the race in, if not all, then a vast majority of cases. it's always seemed to me like the "generally" was more of an admission of uncertainty rather than stating that there's evidence to go against it
wishy-washy language, similar to "basically" or "essentially" when talking about something to kind of remove yourself from being held accountable if it turns out to not be completely accurate
ocean brook
sooo . . .
we have no evidence, thus far, that goes against the "mother grants race" notion, but also no assurance that future games won't go against that notion
golden sierra
yep, pretty much
quartz shuttle
Mankar is the closest we have, but it ultimately depends on how much you trust the Razor story
Which, IMO, shouldn't be much, sine Mankar is just factually wrong on so many fronts
He's a raving madman and shouldn't be taken seriously
ocean brook
he was supposed to be right, as I recall
quartz shuttle
And Twilight was SUPPOSED to be romantic
ocean brook
so, lotgically, Mankar sparkles
quartz shuttle
Yes.
Especially given more recent revelations about the Dragonblood, what makes more sense... Mankar used the Razor to reshape himself (something which has never been indicated it could do, and something which is counter to Dagon's sphere of destructive change) or he was just born a Dragonborn?
ocean brook
how does Mankar being a Dragonborn let him go from being a Bosmer to an Altmer?
quartz shuttle
It establishes that the whole 'Using the Razor to shape his nymic' thing is unlikely
Far more likely, he was just born an Altmer.
quartz shuttle
It's also worth noting that Legends identifies him as Altmer-Bosmer
ocean brook
so he was a half breed?
ocean brook
which would . . . be evidence that sometimes children take after the father, the conversation directly above this one
quartz shuttle
Yeah, that's my point
That said, Haymon's own origin is fuzzy. He was definitely a Camoran, who are typically Bosmer, but he seems to have been a cousin and not on the main line.
So, with his own parentage unknown, it's likely he had an Altmeri parent.
ocean brook
though I wouldn't be surprised iof Mankar used the Razor to cut the Bosmer parts of himself out for some strange, inexiplicable reason
as, well, he is a raving madman
quartz shuttle
There's also the problem of the fact that the Commentaries, written by Mankar, were supposedly in circulation during the time of Tiber Septim...
400 years before Mankar was born. Which, if true, would imply that Mankar is NOT, in fact, the son of Haymon Camoran
ocean brook
people have sent weirder stuff back in time tio be published before, though this is now reaching toward 12th century McNuggets territory
quartz shuttle
Yeah, Mankar is jsut a whole lot of mess
Overall point being, Notes on Racial Phylogeny doesn't actually take anything off the table.
I mean, we even know Giants and Humans can interbreed, which.... Raises logistical questions
Questions best left unanswered, even though i know somewhere on the dark corners of internet that conversation has been had out.
We also know of a few examples of supposed offspring with Daedra, such as Nerevar and Fa-Nuit-Hen
stark socket
I'm quite sure that Nerevar as Son of Boethiah means that he is a champion of Padomay. That's far from literal.
Same for Alandro Sul as immortal Son of Azura.
uncut hatch
most of the lorebeards i'm acquainted with generally agree that Alandro Sul is a Demiprince, quite literally a son of Azura
and it adds up with what we know, considering is inability to die despite his body being destroyed
ocean brook
he also has a sharp eye for photography
dusky scaffold
[[citation needed]]
ocean brook
that picture of Alandro Sul from C0DA, specifically the Tomorrowind section, where he's recast as an old-school style cub photographer with burning Jimmy Olsen energy
dusky scaffold
eww, c0da
ocean brook
yeah yeah, I know; I said a daedric demiprince had a sharp eye for photography, you knew the logic behind that assertion was going to be silly, messy, and batheed in comic book logic 🙂
lapis dove
Well, the thing about the whole Haymon Camoren thing, is he was a pretender not an actual Camoran in some lore texts. So he was much like Jager. They originally made him a Son of Molag Bal and a Breton woman, at least that was the original intent with the Usurper. Then they connected him with the Nightmare Host and stated that he might be a Lich or the Lich that led it. Basically pulling a Rada al-Saran there and connecting all the things together. So he is kind of all over the place. Oblivon made him out to seem like he was a Bosmeri man. Somehow maybe connected to the antagonist. But it didn't make sense as they contradicted that in the main storyline.
An npc scholor of the mages guild who knew her Mythic Dawn lore, directly stated he and his commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes was written during Tiber Septims reign. So the Mythic Dawn has been around that long. Meaning he predates the Usurper who wasn't even born yet. Bethesda I hope will at least clear it up with tes 6. Mankar doesn't make much sense being the Usurpers actual child, so I think its possible. He could be another Mankar that isn't the actual Mankar of Oblivion
Given the whole Demiprince thing, Haymon could make himself look like a Bosmer likely given the ability they could potentially have with shape shifting into a Bosmer.
Given the context of it, all the mortal children of a Daedric Prince/Daedric Lord, are basically Demiprinces according to the ESO lore on them. Its just the Uesp needs like actual confirmantion that all those with a Daedric Prince parent are in fact Demiprinces or confirmed to be from some official or unofficial source.
plain ibex
When will we see the Dragonsword of Lainlyn again?
pastel sorrel
When will we see the Dragonsword of Lainlyn again?
We have no way of knowing that my dude :v
plain ibex
True, but from a speculation standpoint. Isn't Lainlyn in Hammerfell?
pastel sorrel
True, but from a speculation standpoint. Isn't Lainlyn in Hammerfell?
Yes, but there's basically nothing to speculate about regarding the sword. It might be there, it might still be in Cyrodiil.
solid path
Might be a new creation. 😐
sterile sapphire
Hey lore beards, just had a question pop up in my head, but how does necromancy interacts with its subject? Is it a pure act of bone (or flesh) puppetry, or does it require that there's still some level of soul to enslave in the subject's dried old bones?
rocky lion
well judging from the agonized sounds the zombies make in skyrim the “thank you” when you kill them id say it traps thwir soul in their bodies
solid path
There's at least one group of ghosts that are basically screaming "I don't want to do this, please kill me so I'm not forced to kill you".
dusky scaffold
There's several kinds of necromancy; because everything that has to do with the dead is labeled as such
Usually, when reanimating a corpse, you need some sort of entity to possess it. The most commonly used entity for reanimating a corpse is a lesser daedra
sterile sapphire
The lesser daedra seems to make sense for most of the cases, given you can reanimate a corpse after soul trap (and spells like reanimated corpse being in the conjuration school in Skyrim)
Given the other cases (like moaning zombies thankful of being killed), might it be that there's still a flicker of soul in the dead body that could, in theory, be accessed for a more conventional resurrection ?
Fallion speaks of "giving life back to your dead body" when curing your vampirism in Skyrim (which still is a form of undeath), so might it be that a soul could be reconnected "in the right way" for the deceased to be brought back to life in a more conventional sense ?
sand flume
Given the other cases (like moaning zombies thankful of being killed), might it ...
absolutely!
souls dont leave the body immediately, its a slow process
As to freshness, be careful in this consideration as well. Have you ever wondered why there are so many skeletons among the reanimated undead, fewer zombies, and only a scant few revenants? The longer a body remains inanimate, the less hold its original owner has on the corpse. A spirit can stay tied to its remains for days, weeks, or even years—the shorter the time, the more likely the spiritual umbilicus exists.
A wise necromancer does not wish to fight for control of his creation with an angry spirit seeking a way back into the world. Best to be certain all of a creature's soul has departed before reanimation begins. Even should the necromancer win the battle, it is a cruel victory, tormenting a spirit on its way to rest.
Raising the dead so recent that the soul has not yet fled is ill-advised, as true resurrection is not the purview of the necromancer, but something best left to gods and priests.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_Necromancy
sand flume
Fallion speaks of "giving life back to your dead body" when curing your vampiris...
reinforcing that spiritual umbilicus is likely something a necromancer could attempt
and many necromancers have attempted "true" resurrection to varying degrees of success
sterile sapphire
Ah, thank you, I knew there had to be a book on the subject !
sand flume
👍
sterile sapphire
I really need to go into all the books introduced by ESO, there seems to be some interesting ones in the lot
frigid willow
Fascinating
floral light
Back in the day, i remember some folks having the "most of the gods are just the same smaller number but presenting themselves differently" discussion can't even remember the site it was on it's been so long, but i remember people being almost as in agreement about Azura=Akatosh as they were Merdia=Kynareth, but the only things can think of that really seem to offer any evidence for this possibility is Winged Twilights having a similar build to dragons, like is there any books that draw that line or something?
uncut hatch
Aedra and Daedra are most definitely not the same
especially considering the fact that Daedra did not participate in Creation, with the exception of Meridia, considering she was initially a Magna Ge called Merid-Nunda
floral light
I believe the common reaction to that line back then was that if the theory is correct Azura is already Mephala/Sithis/The Night Mother and Boethia to pull of her whole fate schtick so the idea that the gods are lying about everything else is plausible,
uncut hatch
i firmly believe that theory is not correct because there is zero evidence to support it afaik
floral light
It's no hill i would die on, outside of the Mephala is obviously behind the dark brotherhood because it's just to fitting for her, but i just can't remember what lead to the acceptance within the theory that Azura was specifically Akatosh,
ocean brook
the nugget behind that idea, I'd wager, is simple: how do you tell the passing of time when you're a primitive culture?
uncut hatch
well Mephala is most definitely the voice behind the Night Mother yeah
floral light
the nugget behind that idea, I'd wager, is simple: how do you tell the passing o...
....I feel so stupid for not picking up on that as a possible reason
ocean brook
but at the same time, Azra isn't all moments in time; she's those moments when one thing turns to another. that's why she can prophesise; she knows the moment when something major's going to happen in your life
or, she doesn't know the exact moment, but she knows that moment is coming
she's a goddess of cycles
uncut hatch
it's not like that is unique to Azura, haha
Jyggalag had the Great Library and could predict everything and anything that was going to happen on Nirn
ocean brook
there's more than one way to tell the future, yes
uncut hatch
so in general, i don't find the idea that she is related to fate and prophecy to be an indicator that Azura is, in fact, Akatosh. i take it as just another way that all of the gods in TES are interlinked in some way, shape, or form
ocean brook
right; they're all, as Lore Khan likes to say, joined at the hip
makes Tango Night in Oblivion kind of awkward 😛
floral light
And yeah, the lawful neutral cult of assassins devoted to a goddess of chaos happens to get a chaotic evil rival split off from it who worship a outside of context being, also the fact that Mephala is clearly a homage to Lolth who is long been theorized to actually be the one protecting and helping the good drow simply because "lol chaos!" so i alwasy kind of assumed she was behind the dark brotherhood,
uncut hatch
Mephala being behind the DB is also plainly obvious by the fact that the Dark Brotherhood split from the Morag Tong around the same time the Tong abandoned Mephala for Vivec 
ocean brook
I never knew that Lolth was thought to be the other drow goddess too; huh
uncut hatch
I never knew that Lolth was thought to be the other drow goddess too; huh
Lolth is like the most influential Drow goddess and she's depicted as a spider-person... 
floral light
I never knew that Lolth was thought to be the other drow goddess too; huh
less that more choses not to snuff them out because chaos, and only pretends to go after them while always happening to send just the wrong people to do it,
ocean brook
I haven't been following drow lore very much; I just stopped at "spider domanatrix goddess and naked interpretive dance moon goddess, got it"
😛
floral light
back on to lore stuff did they ever explain if Merunes Dagon specifically did something to get rid of Scourge before the oblivion crisis?
ocean brook
not sure
uncut hatch
Scourge... as in the Daedric artifact?
floral light
yeah the ultimate anti deadra weapon made specifiaclly to protect mortals from them that wasn't even mentioned in the whole deadric invasion
uncut hatch
eh it's doubtful Mehrunes Dagon got it out of the way, if he even could do such a thing. artifacts go back and forth in the games. it just hasn't been in one since Morrowind
it had only been in Battlespire previously, meanwhile Volendrung has been in every game
floral light
Still would be nice if they like dropped a line about Mally sending it to Orsinium to protect it,
uncut hatch
if he wanted to protect it... he could just, you know, keep it in his Plane 
uncut hatch
yeah
floral light
no i meant he sent it to the city so they could use it to fight off Dagon with it, could have helped set the political drama in motion if highrock and hammerfell were bitter over being overshadowed during the crisis by the orcs,
uncut hatch
maybe! though it's not like Hammerfell and High Rock need a reason to sack Orsinium lmao
floral light
very true, they are all so jelous that Orc's finally got to be a op tier race in Skyrim,
Anyone else subscribe to the idea that Orcs are descended from the same elves as the bretons?
robust lintel
🤔
obtuse summit
What if Orcs are coming from sinistral elves?
uncut hatch
Anyone else subscribe to the idea that Orcs are descended from the same elves as...
they either came from Aldmeri or Altmeri stock, the evidence kind of points to both. it's a little wonky
sharp lantern
Anyone else subscribe to the idea that Orcs are descended from the same elves as...
I personally don't believe that (all) Orcs were elves to begin with, given that there are several sources outright stating that the Orsimer predate Aldmeri colonisation, or at least implying it
stark socket
most of the lorebeards i'm acquainted with generally agree that Alandro Sul is a...
Hm, I have the opposite impression. And it makes more sense to me to read Alandro Sul as son of Azura in the same metaphorical way as Vivec is described as daughter of Mephala or Nerevar as the son of Boethiah. "Son of" in this context would rather mean "belongs to", "represents an aspect of", "show traits of" etc. The Hortator, a padomayic champion like Lorkhan or Boethiah before - not mortally related.
floral light
they either came from Aldmeri or Altmeri stock, the evidence kind of points to b...
My reasoning here is the the Orcs and Bretons seem to be extremely attached to the same geographic regions, and both traditionally are resistant to magic, while Altmer were weak to it, so i just kind of figured that they were the regional elf varient that lived in highrock before getting transformed,
uncut hatch
Hm, I have the opposite impression. And it makes more sense to me to read Alandr...
tbh it could be either. i know people who've been into this for a looong time who believe both. i personally choose to believe he is because it's not out of the realm of possibility, and it makes Sul + Nerevar's betrayal more interesting to me! but yeah, you could also be totally right! again, it really just goes either way. up to personal interpretation, really
uncut hatch
My reasoning here is the the Orcs and Bretons seem to be extremely attached to t...
i mean the Bretons come from the Direnni having children with their Nedic slaves. i don't think it's plausible that all of the original Orsimer were Direnni, but they were certainly Altmer/Aldmer of sorts. but as Grandmaster Jauffre pointed out, there is one source that claims Orsimer existed on Tamriel prior to the Aldmer's arrival.
that one source is Before the Ages of Man, which is authored by Aicantar of Shimerene, who was the propaganda master of the first Aldmeri Dominion. he is far from an unbiased source, and given the reputation of the Orcs, he would never admit that they came from Altmer/Aldmer. thus that specific line should probably be taken with a grain of salt
golden sierra
My reasoning here is the the Orcs and Bretons seem to be extremely attached to t...
just an fyi that there is nothing indicating that the Direnni or High Rock's Altmer in general are of a different stock than those in Summerset
it's possible that Orcs could originate from Direnni's Altmer, but any resistance to magic they have wouldn't be a result of that, because the Direnni Altmer were simply not different to other Altmer
sharp lantern
that one source is *Before the Ages of Man*, which is authored by Aicantar of Sh...
It's more than one. Savants in TES III will also refer to the Orcs as one of the ''aboriginal beastpeoples'' of Tamriel, as does Father of the Niben show that Topal encountered ''Orsimer'' in what is modern-day High Rock. A loading screen in ESO also states that the Wood Orcs of Valenwood predate the Bosmer IIRC.
uncut hatch
Father of the Niben actually seems to be referring to ogres, not what we know as orcs
sharp lantern
Topal's word used in verse is Orsimer, which translates into Orc.
golden sierra
no
uncut hatch
orsimer = cursed folk
dusky scaffold
still, as far as I know the origins of the Wood Orcs and Iron Orcs is unknown
golden sierra
Orsimer translates to cursed folk. orc is a shortened term for orsimer. if you think otherwise, i would appreciate a source
Orsimer alternatively translates to "pariah folk"
sharp lantern
Orsimer alternatively translates to "pariah folk"
According to ''vile anti-Orc propaganda''.
golden sierra
The ancient name for the Orcs is 'Orsimer,' which means 'The Pariah Folk.'
- The True Nature of Orcs
sharp lantern
''(DIRECTIVE: This vile, anti-Orc propaganda, though traditional, is now BANNED throughout the DAGGERFALL COVENANT. Administrators: see to it.)''
golden sierra
It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization. Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.
- The Father of the Niben
dusky scaffold
I wouldn't give too much about Topal's sighting of "orcs", as our only source has gone through several translations from what I recall
sharp lantern
> It is possible that the tradition is wrong. Perhaps the Orcs were an aborigina...
"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc", it even says so right there.
golden sierra
😐
yeah just ignore the direct translation why don't you. orc and orsimer are synonymous - it's like goodbye vs bye. they mean effectively the same thing, but the meaning of that thing does not change
sharp lantern
You're saying that ''Orsimer translates to cursed folk'' while your source doesn't even say that.
golden sierra
Perhaps these were a cursed folk - "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris
ya missed the first bit of the sentence there
sharp lantern
You kind of missed the part where the source doesn't say that ''cursed folk'' translates into Orsimer though?
golden sierra
if you don't get that implication from that idk what to tell you
to me that is very clearly saying "Perhaps they were a cursed folk, which is Orsimer in Aldmeris, which is the same as Orc, of a different kind"
sharp lantern
To the contrary, it rather explicitly states that the Aldmeris term Orsimer translates into Orc. The book is theorizing that the term was given to a different people, and that said term would later be given to the ''orcs'' following their creation myth.
golden sierra
no, it says that Orsimer and Orc are the same word
dusky scaffold
whatever Orsimer translates to - cursed folk or pariah folk - it certainly is a kind of folk, and he could have simply described whatever he saw with this term
sharp lantern
no, it says that Orsimer and Orc *are the same word*
But the other theory in said book, stated literally a sentence prior, is '' the Orcs were an aboriginal tribe predating the Aldmeri colonization.''
uncut hatch
The ancient name for the Orcs is 'Orsimer,' which means 'The Pariah Folk.' They now follow Malauch, the remains of Trinimac.
True Nature of the Orcs
Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris...
Father of the Niben
Aldmeris is a language. it is quite literally saying Orsimer means "cursed folk" in Aldmeris
golden sierra
the same word
dusky scaffold
Perhaps these were a cursed folk - "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris
the "-" stands for "which means"
golden sierra
But the other theory in said book, stated literally a sentence prior, is '' the ...
that is another theory that the author of the book puts forward, yes, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the translation of Orsimer
sharp lantern
Except that it does.
golden sierra
yknow what, no, i changed my mind, i'll just agree to disagree
i can't believe i almost just got into an argument with someone over the meaning of orsimer, sheesh
uncut hatch
But the other theory in said book, stated literally a sentence prior, is '' the ...
the same author also proposes this:
Perhaps these were a cursed folk—"Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc"—of a different kind, whose name was to be given the Orcs in a different era. It is regrettable that the fragment ends here, for more clues to the truth are undoubtedly lost.
the author is not definitively stating Topal saw the orcs we know
sharp lantern
yknow what, no, i changed my mind, i'll just agree to disagree
The author claims that the term Orsimer may have been given to a different cursed folk prior to the Malacath creation myth, and that the same term would later be given to those cursed Aldmer. Not that it literally translates to cursed folk.
golden sierra
in that case i redirect you to True Nature of Orcs
i am leaving this conversation 👋
sharp lantern
Which is ''vile, anti-Orc propaganda''
dusky scaffold
says who?
uncut hatch
the Orcs
sharp lantern
says who?
The Daggerfall Covenant, of which the Orsimer from Wrothgar were one of the members.
uncut hatch
and it's not because the source is wrong
it's because of this line:
His followers were likewise changed for the worse. Despised by everyone, especially the inviolate Auri-El, they quickly fled to the northern wastes, near Saarthal. They fought Nords and Chimer for a place in the world, but did not get much. In Skyrim, Malacath is called Orkey, or Old Knocker, and his battles with Ysmir are legendary.
the author thinks the change was for the worse, and the Orcs don't like that. so they banned it.
dusky scaffold
it's because of this line:
> His followers were likewise changed for the worse. ...
where is that from?
uncut hatch
The True Nature of Orcs
dusky scaffold
thx
topaz dome
yknow what, no, i changed my mind, i'll just agree to disagree
Don't mind Grandmaster Jauffre. He's been arguing about Orcs for years. 🙂 https://bethesda.net/community/topic/114893/should-orcs-be-in-morrowind-during-3e-427?language[]=en
sharp lantern
And in those years, nobody has formed a solid counterargument to the various sources contradicting the Orcish creation myth.
Especially that whole loading screen in ESO stating that the Wood Orcs of Valenwood predate the Aldmeri colonisation of Tamriel.
uncut hatch
loading screens are generally not always accurate lmao
there are several that are contradicted by actual, valid, in-game sources
so using that as the basis of your argument is, imo, rather flawed
dusky scaffold
well, but unless you have an actual countersource, it is the only source we have
sharp lantern
loading screens are generally not always accurate lmao
Care to provide an example of that?
Additionally, the loading screen is only one of several sources stating the same thing
uncut hatch
honestly at this point, i'm just going to agree to disagree rather than continue in circles. good talk though! gives me some stuff to think about. 
sharp lantern
Aight, good talk
floral light
Thought, if Almelexia was Boethia's kid, could she like Umaril come back one day?
ocean brook
the Nerevarine probably stuck her in Azura's Star and used her soul to make a super strong item 😛
plain ibex
the Nerevarine *probably* stuck her in Azura's Star and used her soul to make a ...
Super strong Severed Nord Leg...
ocean brook
it's a pity there's no alternate plot path where you can get Almalexia to stop being crazy without killing her; it'd be funny to see her see what fates she suffered in alternate playthroughs
plain ibex
it's a pity there's no alternate plot path where you can get Almalexia to stop b...
Her seeing 18+ modded playthroughs
ocean brook
I'll buy that for a drake 😛
uncut hatch
Thought, if Almelexia was Boethia's kid, could she like Umaril come back one day...
don't think so
wait i misunderstood
pastel sorrel
Thought, if Almelexia was Boethia's kid, could she like Umaril come back one day...
She's not Boethiah's kid, so no