elder-scrolls-lore

[hardy quarry]

It ended and was then revived

Lach and I said "Skyrim good"

[stark socket]

Is this some Heimskr joke, or seriously?

[hardy quarry]

But when I said Skyrim might have some flaws it turned into this

[abstract ibex]

lol

well my take is.... my playtime does suggest that skyrim is a great game but as you say.. no game is perfect that includes both lore, worldbuilding and story so

skyrim is no exception to that 😛 with that said i ll go brush my teeth

[hardy quarry]

Idk that anything is ever perfect. I think good is a good standard

To me Skyrim saved TES

[quartz shuttle]

It is an experience i have had more than once in RP

[hardy quarry]

But some things I still look at and think "man, would have been nice to actually get some details on that"

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah, its not that Skyrim is BAD. Just that it could have been better

[abstract ibex]

😂 it certainly would be nice if things were a bit more out in the open...there is a lot of lore in this game but its so hidden that you wont find it unless you go look on the internet lmao

[quartz shuttle]

But the same can be said for anything

[hardy quarry]

Yeah and what kills me is they put. The lore. In the game.

Like there's so much friggin' lore in Skyrim.

But people can play an entire run and interact with so little of it sometimes.

[stark socket]

"Skyrim good. Better than Oblivion. But no Morrowind, and some wasted potential."

[abstract ibex]

all the cool part is hidden away and i wonder if its that because they wanted to cater to all the mainstream audience

[stark socket]

Oh, you discussed this for six hours lol ^^

[hardy quarry]

Skyrim is way better than Morrowind

You heard it here first folks.

[stark socket]

Depends on what you're looking for

[hardy quarry]

That's a fair answer

[stark socket]

Game, Writing, Lore, Gesamtkunstwerk ...

[hardy quarry]

My biggest issue with it is that it's not fun to play and isn't good for roleplaying at all

But the world is great. I think they need to bring back some of that design philosophy for the world

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah. Morrowind has not aged well

[abstract ibex]

game design wise morrowind certainly had some pretty big issues.. if i remember correctly.. it has been.. a long time

[hardy quarry]

I've beaten Arena three times and find it more fun so I can handle some age

[abstract ibex]

hence why i am excited to see what skywind will bring to the table 😄

[hardy quarry]

I ran the largest "Old TES" community for a pretty long time.

What you expected to experience was bad times with Arena, good times with Daggerfall, and great times with Morrowind

What you got was people enjoying Arena, hating Daggerfall, and having mixed feelings on Morrowind

And pretty consistently too

[dusk timber]

Oblivion,
Skyrim,
and Daggerfall

Are my fave TES games

[abstract ibex]

in that order? 😮

[hardy quarry]

I bet playing Daggerfall was really something special when it came out

[dusk timber]

Oblivion is still at top.
I think Skyrim and Daggerfall are tied for 2nd

[hardy quarry]

Wish I could have had it as a kid

[abstract ibex]

yeah i wasnt gaming back then so i wouldnt know 😂

[hardy quarry]

Tbh Morrowind is probably the same way.

[quartz shuttle]

Daggerfall was world changing when i first played it

[hardy quarry]

Even Oblivion doesn't play as well as it used to. TES doesn't age well at times.

[abstract ibex]

yep

[quartz shuttle]

In fact, im rather ashamed tk admit that i was one of the ones who absolutely HATED Morrowind when it came out

[abstract ibex]

😂

[quartz shuttle]

Not "Threaten the devs and their families" hate, but i was convinced the series was dead and was ready to move on.

A few months later my friend got it, and kept talking about how awesome it was, so i gave it a other chance. And it was by getting into the world and the culture and actually exploring that my opinion changed.

[stark socket]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Daggerfall/comments/o3cbbj/to_those_who_played_this_game_in_the_90s/ some memories ^

Basically confirming this

[dusk timber]

When I first started playing Daggerfall, I was amazed.
And I had played Oblivion, Skyrim, and bits of Morrowind at that point

My problem with Morrowind is that the game lies to you in multiple occassions and has a hard time communicating with players

[ocean brook]

lies?

[stark socket]

?

[ocean brook]

I'm asking for clarification on this claim; how does the Morrowind game lie to the player?

[coral mantle]

game tells you you can play a faithful dunmer and then sends you to desacrate a tomb for some filthy orc, and you cant progress without it

and even if you fetch her that skull to get information and kill her with all the righteousness game tells you that you just spoiled it and important char is dead

[dusk timber]

The game likes to give the wrong information for important quests. And even the devs changed important locations and never reflected said change in dialogue

[quartz shuttle]

I wouldn't say Likes to. But ot does on a few occasions

[rocky lion]

i wouldnt call that a lie id call that a accidental oversight

morrowinds about half the size of skyrim and had significantly less people working on it

[hardy quarry]

Yeah he isn't saying the devs lie to you, he's saying that the game lies to you

[dusk timber]

My point was indeed that the game lies.
More specifically, the game seems to go out of its way to not communicate with the player.
Sure, it gives exposition, but that doesn't stop it from hiding needed and important info.

The Fatigue = Your entire life mechanics are hardly mentioned, for example, crippling some players. Especially since the game basically says "Play better" rather than help explain how management of Fatigue works

Daggerfall did it better imho, and even then it has its own problems in communication.

Oblivion and Skyrim are also better examples here

(Apologies for my ranting)

[quartz shuttle]

Oblivion actively lies to you though

The games leveming formula actively disincentiveises you from focusing on leveling you Major and Minor skills by giving them diminishing returns on Attribute increases

Like, whats the point of Major and Minor Skills, when focusing on them actively impairs your progression?

[uncut hatch]

Oblivion's leveling system is the exact same as morrowind's. Secondly, oblivion's leveling system incentives you act like your build...that you made...after leaving the sewers.

I don't get how that's bad. But whatever.

Also it doesn't lie to you because when you make your class it actively tells you you need to level your major skills to level up which influence your attributes.

[topaz dome]

No it's not. Morrowind had leveling, but not scaling. At a certain point (usually between levels 22 to 25) all Morrowind characters out-leveled the base game. Oblivion added scaling to Morrowind's leveling, introducing the opposite problem. In Oblivion enemies often outleveled the character. This led some players to employ "efficient leveling" (i.e. meta-gaming), a practice that rarely existed in Morrowind.

[uncut hatch]

That's completely different than what lach was saying.

Also, you don't need to efficiently level to play it or enjoy it.

Efficient leveling is also very much present in morrowind.

I also don't really see how being smart with how you level up is "meta gaming".

Also, also, your level in morrowind does impact npcs and dungeons, just not like it does in oblivion. Your level does change loot and it does change what enemy can spawn. But unlike oblivion these enemies do not level with you.

[dusky scaffold]

If you don't level efficiently in oblivion, soon every enemy will overpower you unless you adjust difficulty

In order to stay ahead of them, you have to carefully plan when to use which skill - which is something that's not really natural to an adventurer role-play

"no, i can't kill that enemy with my sword, it'll make me too proficient"
Said no adventurer ever

[quartz shuttle]

Exactly, and the system used actively penalises you for sticking with a focused build. To level efficiently, you need to spread ojt stat bonuses, and maximise your increases. Which entirely defeats the point of specialising.

[dusky scaffold]

they did change and "fix" it in skyrim, so I doubt we'll see something like this going forward

[quartz shuttle]

Well, Skyrim's dynamic is radically different. Superior, IMO, but not yet refined enough to shine.

Still, any system that lets me skip leg day is a win in my book

Unrelated. Saw this, found it hilarious. Evolution of Dunmer in TES

https://i.redd.it/pjdx0k1abz771.png

[coral mantle]

people made Michael Jackson, Rowan Atkinson, ex us president Obama... huh, i dont know his full name.. with Oblivion character creator, ive seen pictures. Randomised faces for npcs werent too good but the tools were all right

and facial animation wasnt as good as its shown on that satirical picture

[quartz shuttle]

Lol

Fair

[west palm]

I'm seriously in love with this modpack (and I would love a sci-fi/fantasy take on Tamriel)

[plain ibex]

The tools are great to the point you can break them if you know what you're doing like with Dark Souls but with way more sliders. I hate the lack of them in later games as it made everyone so samey.

[dusky scaffold]

wonders in Morrowind

[plain ibex]

Eh, Morrowind doesn't count in my book as it was earlier and had preset heads to choose from instead, so you could easily walk around as Fargoth's clone if you wanted to.

[coral mantle]

^yup! face redactor is so flexible, i still spend hours there to get just the perfect touch. and what game had that in 2006? can't think of any, actually. well, maybe Sims 1-2, i havent played them

[plain ibex]

Sims 1 had swappable heads that you could retexture but you were stuck with the head shapes. Sims 2, I don't remember. Closest I can think of is "The Movies" by Lionhead but even then it was only blending between preset heads that gave more obvious changes and didn't allow you to use other textures than the ones already on the heads. Sure there were sliders but they didn't do much. It was difficult to work with.

[uncut hatch]

Supposedly it's all a "dream" by a godhead.

[quartz shuttle]

Well, in the same way that the real universe is a dream of Azathoth

Or a holographic simulation. Doesn't actually make it any less real

[uncut hatch]

...azathoth?

[uncut hatch]

H.P Lovecraft story about a god who dreams of the universe. When he wakes up the dream (universe) is gone

Ah.

[quartz shuttle]

Basically, the source of everything, but that doesn't really matter to the existence of us down here. Even Cthulhu is insignificant to Azathoth

In the same way, the Aedra and Daedra are insignificant to theGodhead. They are part of its dream, and have power within that context though.

So, the actual existence of, and significance of, the Godhead is basically meaningless to the general population

Even if they knew about it, it wouldn't change anything. Now, those rare individuals who may truly comprehend wjat that means...

[dusky scaffold]

doesn't Michael Kirkbride's c0da introduce the idea that through a process called Amaranth another one can continue a "copy" of the Dream, leading to different results?

[uncut hatch]

||uh oh the dreaded C word ||

[ocean brook]

not introeduce; follow up on

[dusky scaffold]

copy? 😄

[ocean brook]

most of Vivec's texts in Morrowind were meant to lead the Nerevarine along the path to understanding and walking the path to Amaranth, as I understand things - though be warned, I'm known for oversimplifying, even when I'm on the right track

[dusky scaffold]

well, it was first spelled out in c0da - vivec's texts (most importantly the sermons) aren't really clear in anything

[ocean brook]

that is an assertion that I don't feel comfortable either affirming or refuting; there are people here with a much stronger understanding of the Sermons than I

[quartz shuttle]

Its generally accepted that the Sermons were more about CHIM than Amaranth

But even what CHIM is remains unclear and unconfirmed

[quartz crane]

Yup. I'm comfortable saying that the 36 Lessons are a manual for CHIM and the Walking Ways in general (Mantling and at least one other is specified in them), but I'm not sure that it's a manual to Amaranth, simply because Vehk wasn't capable of understanding it, even in the Lessons themselves.

I think there were possible attempts at it mentioned in the 36 Lessons (the sages that encased themselves in... something), but I'm not sure they are a how-to manual as such.

[coral mantle]

heven't touched coDa myself but from what i gathered MK came up with Amaranth only by that time? the idea wasn't mentioned before?
became canon with ESO, 37th sermon
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_37
"Go here: world without wheel, charting zero deaths, and echoes singing," Seht said, until all of it was done, and in the center was anything whatever."
and some references to Vivec saving her people through love
"The worlding of the words is AMARANTH."

no idea who wrote 37th sermon btw

[uncut hatch]

Oh is that why there’s a flower baby at the end of C0DA then?

Because amaranth

[ocean brook]

Vivec and love are a strange sort of recess peanut butter cup

[split iris]

One half is made with chunky peanut butter

[frigid willow]

Are there giant boars in lore ?

[quartz shuttle]

Not specifically mentioned, that i know of

[frigid willow]

Dang

[quartz shuttle]

Except for Wereboars, of course

[frigid willow]

Wereboars you say

[quartz shuttle]

Mentioned, but not seen since Daggerfall, if memory serves

[frigid willow]

Yeah I checked the UESP. Thank you for telling me about this, I have some reading to do.

[quartz shuttle]

Glad i could send you down hte rabbit hole

We have tea. And strange potions

[uncut hatch]

Just make sure you don’t get a headache while in the rabbit hole

It’s quite easy to do that… at least it is for me

[frigid willow]

I spent six hours reading every document that mentioned orcs once

[plain ibex]

Sounds like levels of dedication I don't have in me, best I can do is on and off reading.

[frigid willow]

I'm disabled and lack critical social skills.

One day I will consume all the knowledge on UESP and then get into a fight with kirkbride

[plain ibex]

I also need to relearn how to socialise. I'm wanting to do voices for a ttrpg I'm planning on building and sentences from at least one character cause me to trip over my words into a somersault like falling down a flight of stairs. It's so annoying.

[hardy quarry]

You sound fun, unironically

[frigid willow]

I try.
I find TES to be a fairly open community when it comes to these kinds of issues.

[hardy quarry]

Issues?

I meant lore stuff 🤣

[frigid willow]

Ah.
Still, in my experience the elder scrolls community is more open armed with me than others

[plain ibex]

I always found the series kinda like a cushy blanket, though the grimdark tones of Skyrim and the Thalmor where a lot of things cannot be resolved are like moth larvae eating annoyingly large holes through said blanket.

[hardy quarry]

Oh it gets so much worse than that

TES is a very dark setting.

It's very beautiful and lovely, but dark.

[frigid willow]

I appreciate the dark,it makes the light brighter

[plain ibex]

You're right. There's also Murbak whose like a weight you lost in your blanket but found once it is shaken free and lands on your groin.

[hardy quarry]

Good 🙂

[frigid willow]

The shivering isles was my first real exposure to the elder scrolls.

[hardy quarry]

I'mma shill my space to you for the real lore n'wahs

[frigid willow]

That's cool

[plain ibex]

I saw my dad play Morrowind and take down the Udyrfrykyte when I was like 5 and was like "I should play this once I'm old enough and get that Nord Leg for myself and maybe enchant it". I've still yet to get the leg but still, I'm used to dark themes.

[robust lintel]

I've wanted to see this "parallel" version of Tamriel in the lore. I think it was supposed to be darker too

It like folds in on itself, very strange

[hardy quarry]

wdym

Not sure what parallel means.

[robust lintel]

It was just something I stumbled upon in the lore

Its like a parallel universe

[hardy quarry]

Oh you mean Lyg

[robust lintel]

Yea

[hardy quarry]

Little is known of it, and it has a lot of contradictory information

[frigid willow]

Lyg

[robust trout]

gods I feel old now lol

[topaz dome]

I know what you mean. My 13-year-old daughter watched me play Morrowind. She's now 31 years old. 😀

[hardy quarry]

I'm just going to keep pretending it wasn't that long ago.

[frigid willow]

Wow I feel young

[robust lintel]

Did you get my tag earlier good sir?

[coral mantle]

still not nearly as dark as european folk tales \o/ we got soft

[uncut hatch]

Maybe that’s why I don’t see tes as that dark then 🤔

I love old folk tales

[quartz shuttle]

Im sorry you've had negative experiences elsewhere, but glad that you've found a comfortable place here.

[topaz dome]

I must have missed it, sorry. I'm new to Discord and have no idea how half of this stuff works yet. I feel like a fish out of water, going from a forum to Discord. My apologies.

[dusky scaffold]

and already a moderator

[coral mantle]

experienced moderator 👍
25 years, i think?

[topaz dome]

More years than I care to remember. 🤪

[uncut hatch]

if you go on the search bar on the top right and click on mentions with your name at the end you can get everything's that's directed towards you. its a bit easier on mobile cause it shows the mentions first before anything else

might make me look derpy saying that here but its a important feature eheh

[iron basin]

Is todd howard in this server

[topaz dome]

Thanks very much!

[quartz shuttle]

Almost definitely not.

[opal gulch]

I wish

[opal gulch]

Is there any reason why it is mainly Orcs in the Imperial Legion in Morrowind? Is there something I missed? At fort Darius it is only Orcs

[brave shoal]

probably because they make good soldier/them like being one i would guess. Also i think imperial treat them fairly better than what they're used to

[uncut hatch]

Orcs are prized members of an army. Specifically the empire's.

[quartz shuttle]

Service in the Legion also doesn't require an Orc to lose their clan status, so it gives younger Orcs some degree of upward social mobility in the clans that they would not have staying at home.

[uncut hatch]

I dont. Afe

[frigid willow]

It also provides more combat experience making them more valuable to the clan once they return.
It also makes a ton of sense that the legion would want Orcs in particular, they aren't bound to the political ties of a particular homeland and they're historically some of the fiercest combatants in whatever army they happen to be siding with.

[quartz shuttle]

The Kamal are Snow Elves. Change my mind.

[uncut hatch]

snow elves have a aldmeri view while kamal are from akavir?

[uncut hatch]

did elves come form akavir?

this isn't a serious question don't @ me

though perhaps 🤔

[quartz shuttle]

Nah, the Snow Prince fought a reargaurd in Solsthiem as the remaining Falmer fled east. They landed in Akavir, moved into an inhospitable region and restructured their society so they would nevdr be victims again

When they invaded Tamriel thousands of years later, they were looking for the Eye of Magnus.

[hardy quarry]

You've been hitting the sugar again haven't you.

You told me you'd quit man. You gotta think about the people who love you.

[uncut hatch]

tbh it is kinda weird how the kamal acted in that invasion

[split iris]

Yeaa I cannot say I am a fan of it myself Most "X is actually Y" theories are meh at best.

[quartz shuttle]

Naaaaaah. Skooma aint sugar man

Why does everything smell blue?

[uncut hatch]

wish i knew what kamals looked like. be cool

[split iris]

You drank from the right instead of the left bottle didnt you? The Sleeping Tree Sap is deep in your veins now.

[quartz shuttle]

Snow elves in Stahlrim armour, maaaan

[uncut hatch]

do i wanna design them as albino slim jims then? (i like drawing and designing things, don't question it)

or are they buff snow elves?

[quartz shuttle]

Moderwte build, with agressive birds motif on the armout

So, talons, and feathers like blades sticking out. Made of ice. With deathly pale elves underneath

Bam, 'Snow Demons'

[uncut hatch]

Oh thats new

i asked some people what kamal would look like a bit ago and they thought they would look like Japanese onis

[split iris]

Im still of the opinion that everyone on Akavir is basically of the human race, simply demonised to embody their cultural icons and totems.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah, I've heard that one before too. This idea was, in fact, born out of rum, and trying to figure out why the Snow Prince would fight his last stand in Solsthiem of all places

I've also heard speculation that they're an intelegent race of Frost Trolls, or Frost-Troll cousins

But like... Imagine this is just a really angry Elf underneath

https://www.tamrielvault.com/public/album_photo/ef/2a/02/226c7_b81d.jpg?c=c71d

[uncut hatch]

im kinda imagining in witcher 3 ||when that wildhunt leader guy takes his helmet mask off and its just some pleb looking dude underneath||

[quartz shuttle]

That may have influenced the idea as well.

Also hte desire for some group of Elves not to just be freaking Rubes who constantly get the crap kicked out of them.

Ayleids? Dead.

Falmer? Dead or driven underground.

Chimer? Almost dead, then had to ally with the Dwemer, then only propped up by literal divine protection.

Dirennei? Basically dead, or had their political power totally broken.

Altmer? Took multiple beatings and are basically just 1940s Germany now.

Dunmer? literally blew up and then got beaten up by a bunch of lizardmen.

Here's an idea. let's have a group of Mer who aren't just punching bags for a change, eh?

[uncut hatch]

wait chimer dead?

theyre still alive theyre just dunmer now

[quartz shuttle]

The Chimer were almost wiped out early in their history by the Nedes. They had to sacrifice 2 of their greatest warriors to create what is basically an uncontrollable Daedric demi-god to survive.

[split iris]

Ayleids? Hidden
Falmer? Well fair
Chimer? Dunmer
Altmer? Thalmor
Dunmer? Trust me, they were fated to be worst off

[uncut hatch]

ayleids are like, kinda not really alright but maybe not

i dunno, read somewhere they became birds

[quartz shuttle]

My point is, the Elves of TES always come out on bottom. And to be honest, it makes me root for the Thalmor

[split iris]

I agree with the need for Elven upswring, and I think (hopefully) we will get that with the Thalmor.
But still not with you with the Kamal

[quartz shuttle]

That's fair

[uncut hatch]

i'd route for thalmor when they become less evil

i miss ocato. he should of been emperor

[quartz shuttle]

Don't... Don't get me started on Ocato-the-probably-traitor

[split iris]

Evil to you. Are you evil for hiring the pest control to rid your home of invading rats?

[uncut hatch]

you shut your face ocato couldn't hurt a fly (jk)

[quartz shuttle]

That's probably why he bungled the Oblivion Crisis so badly

[uncut hatch]

i had a laughing fit yesterday by how needlessly angry and evil they are in skyrim

[split iris]

While we do not see much of him, Ocato is indeed one of my fav Altmer. With that we have, makes him to be quite the complex multilayered character

[uncut hatch]

like i was reading stuff about em yesterday and theyre so cartoony its hilarious

[split iris]

Tbf Skyrim doesnt do them justice, that I can agree. It is cartoonish evil, much like with ESO and the Ayleids

[uncut hatch]

i like em now

[quartz shuttle]

The decline of the Empire was on his watch, and he couldn't even establish a basic defensive position during the Crisis.

And he wouldn't even assist in securing the LITERAL ONLY SOLUTION THEY HAD

"Oh, you have an heir to the throne and need help protecting him? Nope, sorry, can't do anything about that, too busy trying to end the Oblivion Crisis through paperwork and accounting"

[uncut hatch]

he had a lot on his mind

[quartz shuttle]

i understand most Ocato's failings are Bethesda's atrocious writing in Oblivion, but come on

His 'Shrewd Leadership' is like somoene calling Trench Warfare 'Strategic Brilliance'

[uncut hatch]

you try to run a continent while demons are invading and the rest of the elder council has vanished

[quartz shuttle]

Easily. Pull the Legions back to secure friendly territory, letting your political rivals bear the brunt of the assault without support. Help secure your only potential solution to the problem (Martin) and when the crisis is averted, resecure the depleted rival territories under newloyalist parties.

[uncut hatch]

but the rest of tamriel was struggling

[quartz shuttle]

Yes, and you use the Legion to support those local leaders who are loyal, leaving rivals to face the problem without support and thus (typically) coming out of it far worse.

This ensures you have a stronger position when the crisis is over.

But you also need to actively try to work towards a resolution for the crisis, which Ocato did not do. He left the freaking BLADES, the incompetent morons who were responsible for the Emperor's death in the FIRST PLACE, in charge of dealing with it

"Oh, you're the guys who didn't even notice the Emperor has been replaced with an impostor, lost the Totem of Tiber Septim, almost fostered a rebellion in Morrowind, and then failed to protect the Emperor. You guys have this whole Invasion from Hell thing under control right?"

[uncut hatch]

Ok you got a point there…

[quartz shuttle]

Again, i recognise this is more a problem with Bethesda's writing than anything... But holy crap, if you know anything about political structures, military strategy, or crisis management, and look at Ocato...

The whole of Uriel's reign is just a cluster eff start to finish though. the man was, and i say this with great difficulty because Sir Patrick Stewart is a literal paragon of men, but Uriel was a freaking terrible leader.

Still, i suppose it's better than Tiber "You're too young to get pregnant right?" Septim

[uncut hatch]

yeah youre right. but i don't trust barenziah so the last part is debatable

[hardy quarry]

Titus Mede II comes away looking like a fool as well once you start examining the events around him closely

[hardy quarry]

Also yes. Very much yes.

[quartz shuttle]

He does, especially in the context of Legends (ooooh, how i hate Legends). But not nearly as bad as Uriel.

[hardy quarry]

Oooo. I'm not sure which I think is worse between Uriel VII and Titus II

That's a toughy

[quartz shuttle]

lol

Uriel basically picked freaking Jaffar from Aladin to be his right hand man.

[stark socket]

And who was the best Septim Emperor for you?

[hardy quarry]

Yeah but tbh I think Jagar was the actual competent one

This is going to be a hot take, but I actually think Jagar would have done a better job than Uriel VII

[quartz shuttle]

Like, people always defend Uriel by "Oh, but Tharn is the one who started it". Yeah, and Uriel picked Tharn as his Battlemage, despire EVERYONE ELSE NOT TRUSTING HIM

[hardy quarry]

I think while he's someone who should definitely have been stopped, I think a lot of what he seemed to have been planning would have worked out

[quartz shuttle]

Easy. The one that wasn't even (potentially) a Septim. Kateriah.

[hardy quarry]

Oh yeah, Katariah

[quartz shuttle]

Tinfoil hat time, Kateriah was actually Tiber and Barenziah's daughter

[hardy quarry]

Katariah is a solid choice.

[stark socket]

Hehe, good choice. Definitely top 3.

[hardy quarry]

I'm not sure Barenziah even had relations with Tiber. There's a good chance she lied about that

[stark socket]

I think we briefly speculated about that on teslore before ^^

I proposed The Real Katariah as a sequel

[quartz shuttle]

Her placement in a position of authority above Symmatius indicates that she had some pull with Tiber.

[stark socket]

a sequel, just as sensational and fictional as the original

[quartz shuttle]

lol

[hardy quarry]

Add it to the stack of things that Ted needs to write I guess

Well I'd like this one to have more truth in it 🤣

[quartz shuttle]

But Kateriah's general status is strange. She's from the same clan as Barenziah, but we don't know anything specific about her parentage. She had to be a few centuries old by the time she got married considering when she died, putting her in the right age group.

And we know her family had historically been very close to the Septim line.

[hardy quarry]

If she was of Septim blood I think her line would have had a stronger hold on the throne

If she was picked because she was a Septim born of Tiber they would never have had her anyways because of the implied scandal

[quartz shuttle]

Only if it was officially known. Based on The Real Barenziah (again, not the most reliable of source) they were very adamant that no illegitimate children be out there.

[stark socket]

Of course she would be a secret, unrecognized child of Tiber & Barenziah, given away to some distant Raathim relatives ...

[quartz shuttle]

if Tiber let Barenziah keep the baby (if it ever even existed) then it would have been under the terms of no one ever knowing it was his.

[hardy quarry]

Well, Barenziah's book talks about being a victim of every man in her entire life from childhood at a time when her relationship with Jagar Tharn would have been investigated

And at a time where she fled with a very wicked man to Wayrest where the Empire had less power

Conveniently right before Jagar fell.

And who also clearly lied about things like assisting the Eternal Champion

There are far too many convenient things Barenziah puts out as information.

So I have immense doubts about her relationship with Tiber.

[stark socket]

Yes, I think this part is mostly fictional as well.

[quartz shuttle]

My main hangup there is her status as ruler of Morrowind.

Symmacius was one of Tiber's most trusted generals. Barenziah was a moderate regional noble, taken as a trophy of war FOR Symmacius.

If Barenziah didn't have any sort of relationship with Tiber, why would he put HER in charge, and not Symmacius.

[hardy quarry]

Because her lineage goes all the way back to Nerevar

Not directly of course, but it does.

[stark socket]

Mora connections.

[hardy quarry]

The Ra'athim are excellent political puppets for any side that can have them

[quartz shuttle]

Eh, doesn't seem like the style of the guy who used Numidium to crush anyone who didn't like his rule. Tiber wasn't one particularly known for compromise

[hardy quarry]

Who said anything about compromise?

[stark socket]

check out PGE1 about his diplomatic skills

[quartz shuttle]

What i mean is, he would have said "Symmacius is your king now, deal with it"

[stark socket]

It was not just roaring conquest and stomping robot

[hardy quarry]

That was also like the one time okay. Everyone has a bad day. 😄

[quartz shuttle]

PGE1 is basically Soviet Propaganda.

[hardy quarry]

And yet vast amounts of it have turned out to be true

And it is still used by devs to design provinces to this day.

[quartz shuttle]

True-ish. Like The Real Barenziah.

[quartz shuttle]

I mean, it's a little harder to turn geography into propaganda

[stark socket]

The Real Barenziah is biographical fiction. PGE1 is like Tacitus' Germania.

[hardy quarry]

It has a lot of propaganda but I don't think anything can be dismissed as just propaganda without a reason. Propaganda is also capable of possessing some truth

The most egregious propaganda I know of relates to stuff about the first men

[quartz shuttle]

Oh no, i don't mean i'm dismissing it. I am saying that it's claims about Tiber's skill at diplomacy are likely grossly overstated

[hardy quarry]

And how everything came from Nords

[stark socket]

I think it's rooted in nibenese mentality, with their merchant classes et al

[quartz shuttle]

With testimony likely from mostly loyal vassals, and little input from rivals and former enemies.

[hardy quarry]

Tyer brought it up to respond to the idea that Tiber wasn't known for diplomacy

We know he was excellent at political subterfuge and espionage.

[stark socket]

Btw YR has this claim about Tiber's diplomacy:

[hardy quarry]

No one is saying he was a master of it per se

[stark socket]

"this young myth is perhaps inspired by Talos' reputation for shrewd diplomacy, attested by even his greatest critics, which permitted him to scheme and bargain his way into the capital city - which he lacked the armies or funds to conquer by dint of force." - YR

The Voice of the Emperor can also be subtle and convincing.

[quartz shuttle]

Eeeeh... Again, based on the propagandized nature of the document, i'm not willing to take that at face value

Then again, i also dismiss the Voice of the Emperor power

[hardy quarry]

That's an unpublished annotation from an Altmer who hates the Empire

[quartz shuttle]

Fair, i must be misremembering

i will cede the point then

Still think he was a pedo

[stark socket]

Heresy, for what it's worth: "This period of levelheaded statesmanship and diplomacy, this sudden silence, heretofore unknown in the roaring tales of Talosian conquest, are explained away later."

[hardy quarry]

A what

[stark socket]

well

[quartz shuttle]

I said what i said.

[hardy quarry]

Oh because of Barenziah?

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah

[hardy quarry]

That isn't pedophilia even by her own story

In the context of the story she had already come of age

By everyone's standards she was grown enough

[quartz shuttle]

Not knowing a lot about Elven biology doesn't help with it either. Still, by her own story she was still to young to have children. By most biological standards, that would make her a juvenile.

[hardy quarry]

She wasn't too young to have children though, remember?

[quartz shuttle]

She was, accoridng to Tiber's doctor. He blamed the Emperor's stunning verility on causing her to become pregnant earlier than Elves are supposed to be able to.

Which, if the event even happened, would just mean she was earlier than usual, and the doctor was a moronic sycophant.

[uncut hatch]

don't elves age the same as humans do with puberty?

[hardy quarry]

That just sounds like a bad doctor to me

[uncut hatch]

like, i hope so or queen ayrenn should not be in a war

[quartz shuttle]

It would seem not. if the story is to be believed, Mer at age 18 haven't become fertile yet. They're physically comparable to Humans, but not able to reproduce yet.

[hardy quarry]

"Oh yeah Tiber sir, you're just so fertile that you changed fertility itself"

Idk man. I'm not sure what I want to say here

[quartz shuttle]

Again, if the story is to be believed. Which remains dubious.

[uncut hatch]

that healer also says elves are lucky to have four kids in their life time

[hardy quarry]

This just sounds weird.

[uncut hatch]

which is kinda false

[hardy quarry]

Wait if they're physically comparable to humans then this definitely isn't pedophilia

[uncut hatch]

in his 80s too whoa

[hardy quarry]

Pedophilia means you are sexually attracted to children. That's Tiber not being attracted to a child from his perspective

[quartz shuttle]

A powerful warlord-turned-Emperor taking an attractive young woman he doesn't think he can get pregnant to have fun with? That makes perfect snese.

[hardy quarry]

No I meant the doctor's line. What you're saying could definitely happen. Sure.

[quartz shuttle]

Fair enough, that is accurate.

[hardy quarry]

Problem is we have the words of a probable liar and traitor to the Empire lmao

[stark socket]

I'm sure that the many thousand tamrielic, especially imperials readers of this novel feel strongly about this point of controversy as well, and discuss it in hushed whispers on the forum. Which is why this might have been added to the novel in the first place.

"Ah, but the poor Barenziah! And how cruel Tiber Septim was to her!"

[hardy quarry]

Yep, that's exactly my thoughts

Great PR move by ol' Berry

[quartz shuttle]

It's worth noting, of course, that i also don't think Tiber could ever shout, was the one who killed Culchain, and was just all round not a good person

Even worse than the otherwise sympathetic light The Real Barenziah paints him in.

[hardy quarry]

Well the shouty bois said he could shout and I'm trusting that more than Arcturian cult literature 🤣

[stark socket]

The Imperial College of the Voice in Markath attests that he could shout. 😉

[quartz shuttle]

No, they said he was named Ysmir and Dragonborn. They do not say he went through the same ritual as you do.

[quartz shuttle]

They also say he lost the ability when his throat was cut. Yet we have dessicated Draugr with shriveled throats still shouting fine.

[stark socket]

@modest helm described the TESV scenes (our ritual, which is supposed to be similar to Talos' visit at Hrothgar; and the Ghost of Hrol'dan) as a mix between the Heresy and Orthodoxy.

[hardy quarry]

Yes

[stark socket]

Yes, this is an apt description I think

[hardy quarry]

The Heresies clearly have some truth to them

[stark socket]

And that's how TESV handled this situation

[hardy quarry]

It just seems like his inability to shout was false. I do think having Wulfharth as a guardian spirit cloak thing was still possible

[stark socket]

yes

[hardy quarry]

It'd make sense for Wulfharth to be the more experienced one

[modest helm]

Ooh, an Arcturian Heresy discussion?

[stark socket]

Just if Hjalti could shout or not.

[quartz shuttle]

If he ever could, based on what we know and see, there's no reason he should have ever lost the ability.

[hardy quarry]

Oh I agree

I don't think he actually did. I don't trust the Heresy's account of his shouting ability

For all I know the throat-slitting thing was also made up or it was done for a purpose that was misunderstood

The same guy who wrote the Heresy also wrote about Tiber shouting all over the place in other works

Also the bits about him breathing in Royalty is both Thu'um and CHIM as a reference

Which is also validated in TES5.

If he did slit his throat, we really gotta ask why. I'm not sure the Heresy got it right

[modest helm]

Yeah, I think MK himself rejected the idea of Tiber Septim not being able to shout with the post-TES5 text of the Sword-Meeting, which has Tiber as the Thu'um-slinging Dragonborn hero we all know him as from TES5

[quartz shuttle]

Because Culchain fought back, and Tiber needed and excuse to cover his ass

[modest helm]

Well, TAH claims he didn't even slit his throat at all

[hardy quarry]

But that he made up that he did?

[modest helm]

Indeed

(The assassination story is embroidered -- now it is popularly Talos' own throat that was cut.)

[hardy quarry]

In order to cover for Wulfharth not being there right?

I knew the angle is that it was an excuse but I couldn't remember if he actually did it or not

It's possible that some of his feats were Wulfharth and he didn't want people knowing that.

But then Barenziah remembers him with throat unslit, and while I think she's a liar, I don't know how well an incorrect portrayal of Tiber's looks would have caught on

[modest helm]

Before Cuhlecain can be crowned, Hjalti secretly murders him and his loyalist contingent. [...] [Tiber] sends the Underking to deal with Imperial expansion into Skyrim and High Rock. Ysmir, mindful that it might seem as if Tiber Septim is in two places at once, works behind the scenes. This period of levelheaded statesmanship and diplomacy, this sudden silence, heretofore unknown in the roaring tales of Talosian conquest, are explained away later. (The assassination story is embroidered -- now it is popularly Talos' own throat that was cut.)

[quartz shuttle]

That said, MK has also mentioned that he has become dissatisfied with the Heresy and would like to take another shot at it, so it's not clear if the intetion of the text is muddied.

[hardy quarry]

He just thinks he wrote it poorly

[stark socket]

With the style, not the content on itself

[modest helm]

Supposedly he takes issue with the prose, not the content, but really, to an extent, the prose itself informs the content. Would it be taken nearly as authoritatively were it written from a fallible in-universe perspective, its connection to Five Songs (the same text that claims Lorkhan slew Nerevar) made more explicit?

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah. The way the prose is set up could vastly change how the intent is conveyed

But the issue is, if Tiber COULD shout, why did he never use it later in life?

[stark socket]

He did - "I breath now, in Royalty"

[uncut hatch]

his throat was a bit sore

[quartz shuttle]

Eeeeh, not buying it. That could be a Thu'um, it could be CHIM, it could just be made up religious bable

it could be some combination of the three

[stark socket]

That's what I think

Cosmic realization, expressed & enforced by Thuum.

[quartz shuttle]

Bearing in mind, i don't think Tiber directly changed Cyrodiil. I think he changed White Gold, which changed Cyrodiil.

i'm with Lady Cinnabar on the whole terraforming aspects of the Towers.

[hardy quarry]

Nah Cinnabar was written to be wrong 🤣

It's a little joke Schick has. Cinnabar and Phrastus are intended to be obtuse

Phrastus represents someone too bogged down in the trees and he's missing the forest

And Cinnabar is all over the place.

There's a truth to what Cinnabar says but it is not exactly what Cinnabar says

[quartz shuttle]

Agreed. Combining it with the Nu-Mantia Intercept (by the way, realised a while back the Nu-Hatta is probably a Khajiit, and am convinced he is an Afliq) we may be able to come to more of a conclusion of what they do and how

[modest helm]

Cinnabar's Tu'whacca, Arkay, Xarxes is one of the few books whose IRL author we explicitly know did not believe it

Trinimac doesn’t relate to Xen in my mind at all, Trinimac only relates to Xen in the mind of the author of the lore book I’m writing about the matter, and then I have to carefully consider the cultural background and life experiences of that NPC author for me to understand what opinion they have on the issue. Because that’s what’s important.

[quartz shuttle]

Well, i mean, i'd let Ben Carson operate on my brain. But i wouldn't trust his opinion about Pyramid construction. Just because someone is wrong about one thing, doesn't mean they're wrong about everything.

[hardy quarry]

No Cinnabar is wrong about Towers

Although I'll be charitable and say she's half-right

What Tyer is saying is closer to the truth

Towers are big terraforming things

But being the master of a tower isn't something that just comes along, and it has deep significance

[modest helm]

Nu-Hatta a Khajiit? I thought it was one of those old Nedic/Nibenese tribal names, like Sed-Yenna or Shonni-Et or Ami-El

[stark socket]

I tend to believe the Many-Headed/Heimskr account on the Lost Jungles, as mytho-occult + thuumaniac as it is (if I follow this road of TES, rather than the world of TES3 that still had no need for this trick). But it needs much more treatment and discussion. How does it feel for Cyrodiils if thousands of years of history in the jungles are suddenly overwritten? What are all the other reasons and consequences? MK's very brief snippets are just the claims and a primer. Alas, TESIV did not bother to add a single additional line on this.

[hardy quarry]

This is the part that I could talk about some really fun things about Hierem but I'm tired

[hardy quarry]

Good ol' TES4

[stark socket]

I mean, think about the Warp in the West book, detailing the Daggerfall Break. Something like this would have been great for the Lost Jungles.

[hardy quarry]

Being a pain in our collective rears for going on two decades now

[quartz shuttle]

No, Towers are mythic echos of Adamantia. Shaping the world around them in mimicry of its creation. So, the Master of a tower dictates that shaping. Tiber linked the Cyrods to White Gold somehkw, imposing THEIR will on the land through time.

[hardy quarry]

Not somehow. The Cyrods were already the land

[quartz shuttle]

Its definitely not an easy feat, wjatever he did

[hardy quarry]

He used CHIM

He became the one within the all

[quartz shuttle]

Depends on what you think CHIM is

[stark socket]

The Towers (all the merethic structures) are not exactly The Tower (a symbol), even if the former concept is indirectly based on the latter.

[hardy quarry]

CHIM isn't a huge mystery for me

[quartz shuttle]

I view it not as a power in and of its self, but as Enlightenment and Knowledge. CHIM on its own doesn't give you diddly

[hardy quarry]

It is enlightenment yeah

[quartz shuttle]

No, but they are made as echos of Adamantia, as stated in the Intercept

[split iris]

As the Zoroastrians would say: From Thoughts to Words to Actions. CHIM gives the Wisdom and Enlightenment to fuel his actions in shaping the Land as King. It mussnt be one or the other, could easily be a combo.

[stark socket]

Yes, but in this context, the symbolic The Tower is not just Adamantia, but the image behind Adamantia itself. Why Adamantia is so powerful. The lorkhanic Sideways Wheel = I = 1 = Tower symbol which Vivec describes. Tower-as-Universe.

[hardy quarry]

L'Etat, c'est moi

[split iris]

Oui

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah. basically Tiber, through CHIM, understood the workings of White Gold and how to bind his chosen people to it. So, instead of them bejng of Cyrodiil, Cyrodiil would be of THEM.

[hardy quarry]

No they were already bound to it

Tiber didn't do that.

[quartz shuttle]

How would they have been? The only links to it were maybe the Chim-el

And thats... somewhat questionable, given White Gold still seems to he active at the time of the Umbriel crisis

[hardy quarry]

Trying to figure out how deep into this I want to go right now 🤣

[quartz shuttle]

Don't dive if you don't have the time right now

The topic is sure to come up again

[hardy quarry]

Yeah it's one of those really long answers that takes a while

And there's a timer.

[quartz shuttle]

Lol, its ok. Ive had those conversations

[ocean brook]

you need to have a phamplet so you can just post the phamplet for times like this, Lorebeard 🙂

[hardy quarry]

I'm working on it!

I need like a ton of those

[ocean brook]

I remember once Rhedd saying that CHIM is the pizza, not the cheese - or some analogue of said analogy

wish I had saved the quote

[stark socket]

Here is CHIM discussion from 2004: https://web.archive.org/web/20041209064447/http://www.elderscrolls.com:80/forums/index.php?showtopic=11865

And look who already commented there ... @ocean brook 😉

[sand flume]

tfw thats nearly older than me

[quartz shuttle]

Ooof

Now i feel old.

Ok ya young Whippersnapper. Are you aware of Theodore Rex?

Three Ninjas? Surf Ninjas?

[ocean brook]

I forget the difference between the two

oh wow; this was one of arynel's threads

[stark pewter]

shriveling into dust over here

[hardy quarry]

I'm only a little younger than you Lady N. Just slightly too young for that date

And I feel ancient. It's "great"

Need that meme where Wolverine is touching a picture and it's the old forum peeps

[sand flume]

i feel like a baby watching yall's wise asses

[quartz shuttle]

Im old enough to just baaaarely remember, consciously, the final death of the Soviet Union.

Also Cadillacs and Dinosaurs... which i now realise was 2 years later

I have a weird gap in my memory between the fall of the Soviets, and C&D...

[ocean brook]

heya Lady N.; hope life's been treating you and yours well

[uncut hatch]

same

[split iris]

Back in my days Ria Silmane was the "Skyrim Ralof" Meme

[uncut hatch]

theres a skyrim ralof meme?

when do i stick a crown onto ria then take it back after a quest?

[uncut hatch]

Hours later I have realised you meant the Skyrim intro meme

[split iris]

Yes I did lol sorry was away

[uncut hatch]

What is your current knowledge on rolling down in the deep. When your mind is no longer susceptible to pain or feeling you may describe that as mental freeze. When people communicate at an amount that is unacceptable, place it in a slowed motion. What I am feeling is that of an astronaut in the ocean.

[uncut hatch]

Bruh same

All the time

[uncut hatch]

It’s ok I should of realised ages ago

[robust lintel]

Sounds like a Pink Floyd song

[robust lintel]

Following the prophecies of the elder scrolls themselves.. wasn't there some guy in a previous elder scrolls game talking some stuff about a elder scroll prophecy of the Akavir invading Tamriel after the Empire plunged into Civil War like with the events which took place in Skyrim? Just thinking ahead on Elder Scrolls VI.

[stark pewter]

No such thing that I know of. You may be thinking of Thurindil in Anvil, who thinks he's the son of a queen of Akavir and that she's coming to get him?

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Thurindil

[robust lintel]

Let me look real quick

[stark pewter]

Or mixing things up with the Akaviri wall that predicted TESV's story

[robust lintel]

I found it

[slender latch]

It might be one of the less generic npc mods for morrowind that made its way into an article a while back

[robust lintel]

it was from Morrowind

Priest Lloros Sarano

Oops I worded that wrong. He didn't get it from a Elder Scroll.. But he does mention rumot of the Akavir preparing for snother attack after the Empire plunges into civil war, and suggesting someone go to Akavir to weaken or stop iy.

Rumor*

[pastel sorrel]

So that's why the Nerevarine goes there.

[stark pewter]

Just looked it up and that's from a mod

[slender latch]

Wouldn’t be the first time it was mistaken as base game. That article spread a bit of misinformation

[stark pewter]

The best way to check this sort of stuff is to look at the primary sources (NOT summary articles) on UESP, TIL, and TESwiki, or, better yet, directly at the game data: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/game-data

[robust lintel]

What mod was it just wondered?

[stark pewter]

LGNPC Pax Redoran, according to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/93gsin/possible_plot_for_tes_6_it_talks_about_an/

[robust lintel]

Ah okay

But its interesting the Nerevarine went to Akavir and hasn't been heard from since..

[stark pewter]

Well, to be fair and in the interest of continued parade raining, that's just a rumor :p

Though it does work nicely with the pilgrimages undertaken by Nerevar in the Sermons

Bethesda has generally (generally!) Tried to keep things open as far as a "canon" version of events, especially as it concerns the main character

We got a foreshadowing of Oblivion in Tribunal and Blood Moon, but nothing for Skyrim in Oblivion. And since they are only NOW designing TESVI, any correspondences between anything in that game's plot and Skyrim are more likely to be coincidences than purposeful hints. Unless TESVI is like Great War 2 or something, in which case that's just logical progression of events.

[plain ibex]

What were Dwemer Tubes even for?

[dusky scaffold]

ask a dwemer engineer

oh, wait, they're all gone

[plain ibex]

Quick, grab a cursed object then ask the ghost that comes out...

[dusky scaffold]

Ghost that comes out: "Aaahh, why do you disturb my rest?"

[rocky lion]

wait… seriously dwemer specters are all still sapient concious beings why hasnt anyone asked them these things atleast one is not outright hostile

[uncut hatch]

My thoughts exactly

Ask em how to make a robo

[stark socket]

I like the speculation that the Dwemer Spectres are in fact holograms.

[quartz shuttle]

Spiritual imprint projections from the same source that powers the Constructs

They're not real ghosts, just echoes of souls

[uncut hatch]

Don’t you talk to one in mournhold though

And he’s really rude

This bag of bones
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal:Radac_Stungnthumz

[quartz shuttle]

Some soul-hologram-echoes may be stronger than others.

[robust lintel]

What is the name of the attire that M'aiq the Liar is wearing in ESO? Can't find that information anywhere.

[dusky scaffold]

I'm not sure it has a name

[robust lintel]

Not even in the game code?

Is there any other armor like it in ESO besides on M'aiq?

[dusky scaffold]

Pretty sure they have an internal ID, but we can neither access or use it

[coral mantle]

Mages Guild rags look a little like that. Can get those as leveling reward somewheres between lvl 30 and 40

[robust lintel]

Hmm

[coral mantle]

and yeah, can confirm Maiqs robe isnt available for players to wear

[robust lintel]

How did they get the codes or ID for M'aiqs outfit in the other games but not ESO?

[abstract ibex]

either via the wiki or by clicking on him while in console and then showinventory

or ig you could also check with various tools

[rocky lion]

eso doesnt run on any form of creation

it fundamentslly doesnt work the same

[pastel sorrel]

ESO's on an entirely separate engine, derived from the Hero engine. Between that and being an MMO, it's harder to get ahold of data like this.

[quartz shuttle]

It may not even be an outfit, it may be hard-baked into the character model.

[dusky scaffold]

For most other games, we have the complete game files available, and decoded
For ESO, a lot of it is server-side, and decoding it isn't as easy as for previous games

And even if you had the ID, you couldn't do anything with it, as ESO lacks a console (for obvious reasons)

[robust lintel]

Weird. An unidentifiable attire in Elder Scrolls franchise. I just wanted to know where it was from.

[dusky scaffold]

from M'aiq

tbh I wouldn't be surprised if there were several pieces of clothing in ESO we know nothing about

and neither do we know anything about the NPC clothing in Daggerfall, for that matter xD

[robust lintel]

I know I know, M'aiq just sticks out to me. I can see what he's wearing in the other 3 games but not in ESO, just bugs me and I'm fairly curious about it. I thought looked kinda blades-ish or akaviri at first idk, but I can't identify the art source

[abstract ibex]

you also cant see what the other npcs are wearing either though

[coral mantle]

most npc clothing can be stolen though, from drawers and wardrobes and stuff. eso-fashion.com has the list with images

[harsh wedge]

Alduin destroyer of worlds that's him irl

[robust lintel]

In his hammerfell desert form

[harsh wedge]

Yes

[uncut hatch]

in hammerfell, he doesn't need wings

he flies within the sands

[harsh wedge]

Indeed 😌

[robust lintel]

Yes yes and burrows in and out the sand like a vicious rock worm

And shoots spikes out from his dark black beard

[harsh wedge]

Yes his black beard is more powerful then a thousand shouts

[visual zenith]

Anyone know the patron deity of bards?

[split iris]

Jephre, Dibella, Vivec

[visual zenith]

Ok thank you

Isn't Jephre another interpretation of Yffre?

[split iris]

You can see it as such, yes. Singer. Storyteller. Of Songs and Forests. Spirit of Now.

You also have the less spoken of Kieran, one of the many minor deities of the Iliac Bay. A Bard Deity for sure, whose shrines are theatres.

[visual zenith]

Hopefully Bethesda throws lore fans a bone and puts in some shrines to lesser deities in TESVI

[split iris]

I do agree that we need to move away from the 8 and 16 monomyth

[visual zenith]

So a Breton bard would be most likely to worship Jephre or Dibella?

[split iris]

Very much yes. Jephre is on the more druidic loremaster side, the story of the ol myths, while Dibella is more of an orthodox Imperialized deity. But I see why not one Breton could have a personal pantheon.

[visual zenith]

Apologies if my questions are annoying. So is Dibella more for musician type bards then? Or could it be either one again?

[split iris]

Not at all. It is best if you look at polytheistic deities, both in game and IRL, less by their spheres and more by their personalities and the roles they play in myths. There are many war gods, may earth gods, etc, but that separates them is the role the play, their persona, their myths.

Jephre the Singer gave life and names to the forests, streams, and brooks. Taught the birds to sing of seasons. Wrote the first ballets of the elves. He is the spirit of now. Elven, even for the Breton. Revered by farmers, hunters, druids, wyress, and bards. He sang the world of metaphors.

Dibella is about popularity. From Art to Erotics to Women and such. Passion, expression. The Truth of Beauty. Of Charm and Grace. And the Promotion of Harmony.

[visual zenith]

Ight cool

Looks like Yannick will become a disciple of Jephre

[plain ibex]

What are like most of these spells supposed to be? Camp Magicka? Dead to Dust? Blood Spirit? Might be good to recycle these for ES6 honestly.

[dusky scaffold]

eww, fandom

what are they from?

[pastel pivot]

generally you should be checking the UESP for lore related things, not fandom

[uncut hatch]

eh both are as good as each other

[pastel pivot]

fandom's lore is not sourced, most of the time. it's unreliable and often times has original research and speculation that should not be on a wiki
for game articles fandom is fine, just not for lore

[uncut hatch]

not sourced?

[quartz shuttle]

They've both gotten better at their weaknesses. UESP suffered for a long time with shorter summaries and a lack of the minutia

[pastel pivot]

not sourced as in they write stuff without putting an ingame reference for it (not always but often enough for it to be a problem), whereas UESP's lore articles are quite consistent with references

[plain ibex]

ES Travels: Dawnguard.

[pastel pivot]

Dawnstar?
The travels games have some funky spells, I remember looking through those a while ago

[plain ibex]

Yeah, whoops.

[quartz crane]

@slender latch and anyone else who may know...

Do we have any way of text searching the old Bethsoft forums, or digging out the original URLs? I'm looking for the thread "The Dwemer, Noumena And Phenomena", which is referenced in TIL, but nowhere seems to have the URL of the original thread. Once I have that, I can plug it into the Wayback Machine and get to the content.

[slender latch]

Much of the old forums prior to mid 2008 are lost. We have periodic threads that survived because they where saved by users but the vast majority met the void. I’ll take a look tonight to see if that thread survived.

[quartz crane]

Darn. Thanks!

[topaz dome]

As benefactor says, the forums were purged (of both threads and inactive accounts). But a few bits and pieces of the old forum have been archived over at the Wayback Machine site. Example: https://web.archive.org/web/20021212130103/http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php

[uncut hatch]

Are Mer Dreugh? Morrowind Lore-ites, tell me 'bout 'em.
these were very different times.

[dusky scaffold]

Mer are definitely not dreugh
They don't have enough tentacles

[quartz crane]

Thanks. I've got the general Wayback Machine principle for the old forums, which is why I'm hunting for an old URL. Once I have that, I can just plug it into the Wayback Machine and retrieve it.

[quartz crane]

Oh yes. I'm not sure which I prefer any more, to be honest. I don't know if my fondness for the forums are nostalgia or an enjoyment of a different mode of online interaction.

[uncut hatch]

yea, i never saw the old forums so im gonna have a little adventure around it. its interesting seeing what theories people had back then

[quartz crane]

Oh, have fun. Some of it is very much the same ("what is CHIM?" "Where did the Dwemer go"? etc), but several areas are records of "first times" in the fandom for discovery or presentation of ideas. Plus, the attitude towards the lore felt different, in a way I can't really quantify. Maybe that's just my nostalgia kicking in, though.

[uncut hatch]

i haven't found a wall of text yet so that seems different

haven't found any chim or anything either. might do later though

didn't know oblivion was speculated since 2002. unless im reading the times wrong

the worse part is most of the forum links don't end anywhere so i'll get a cool title then go to nothing

[hardy quarry]

Did you save any of your own out of curiosity? I assume not but doesn't hurt to ask

Ben and I have tracked down people who had a page or two saved

Unless that was just Loranna

[topaz dome]

None of my posts were worth saving.

[hardy quarry]

I see I see

[uncut hatch]

rip

[quartz shuttle]

Nah, 'They' were just trying to conceal your hardhitting truths.

[quartz shuttle]

Like how Pineapple belongs on Pizza

[keen briar]

And how coconut belongs in delete

[quartz shuttle]

It put's the lime in the coconut

[ocean brook]

and now I have that song stuck in my head; thanks

[quartz shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/michael-scott-youre-welcome-wink-steve-carrell-gif-14492653

[slender latch]

The thread you are looking for was not saved. I've gone through the threads that do survive from that time frame and it was purged.

[quartz crane]

Darn. Thanks for checking!

[stark pewter]

For future reference, if you know when the thread was active you can try looking through the homepage around that time, and then get the url from there. Unfortunately most threads didn't make the archive.

Another thing worth checking is that weird clone site of the official forums, depending on how old the thread is. It won't give you the authors, but will give you the text.

As an example: http://www.gamesas.com/boethiah-summoning-day-t149375.html

[uncut hatch]

Oh it’s the thing I couldn’t find any sources to and thought I made it up!

[quartz shuttle]

We can only wish On Boethia's Summoning Day was a group delusion...

[hardy quarry]

This is great advice, thanks LN!

[stark pewter]

All the OBSD threads are actually on archive.org as well

And Lorebeard, my initials are LN or just N.

[hardy quarry]

Understood

[stark pewter]

👍

[uncut hatch]

sorry i didn't know what to reply with earlier. but i'll go check those out later

[lapis thorn]

Quick question; was the sun made by Akatosh or Magnus when Nirn and all of that was being made?

[uncut hatch]

whats the lore of dark brother hood?

[hardy quarry]

Yes

[coral mantle]

Emil P's take on dark brotherhood is perversed version of christianity. figures of mother, dark god, sacrificed prophet of sorts. scary! he said that on some dev conference. said, write what you know. said, he didnt have much personal experience in ritual murder but he was raised in religious family

[quartz crane]

That would explain the shift towards "dysfunctional family" as a model for how the DB functions, as well.

[hearty hornet]

The Sun is the hole Magnus tore in the veil when he left Creation for Aetherius

[quartz shuttle]

Or the hole Auri-el left as a means of escape when he ascended to Aetherius.

[dusky scaffold]

When did Auri-el ascend to aetherius?

[pastel sorrel]

Convention.

[quartz shuttle]

Which, due to time-y Wime-y nonsense, was also when Magnus did.

Also, the Daedra were there. Because Creation is all messed up

[dusky scaffold]

I don't remember Auri-el ascending to aetherius, where is that mentioned?

[sand flume]

not explicitly, but we get a few hints
he's referred to as king of the aldmer (and also as king of the gods, suggesting a difference), both altmer and bosmer believe they have a real descendence from him, and his imagery is wildly different to other time gods. rather than being a dragon, he is represented by an eagle and also often holding a sun, seeing the sun as a hole into aetherius it suggests hes holding the way to godhood, possibly because he knows the way himself. him being represented as an eagle could suggest flight in order to reach said hole.

and him being a mortal ascending would explain how akatosh mysteriously disappeared from the aldmeri pantheon (he got replaced)

@dusky scaffold

[hardy quarry]

He leapt into space in the Merethic after being the first king of the Aldmer

Oh, thank you @sand flume

[sand flume]

[dusky scaffold]

both altmer and bosmer believe they have a real descendence from him
which implies that he did not leave the mundus at its creation but stayed - he wouldn't have been able to have descendants otherwise
rather than being a dragon, he is represented by an eagle and also often holding a sun, seeing the sun as a hole into aetherius it suggests hes holding the way to godhood, possibly because he knows the way himself. him being represented as an eagle could suggest flight in order to reach said hole.
wild speculation, especially since we already have a better documented one on who created the sun with magnus

[sand flume]

altmer and bosmer claiming real descendence implies that he was a mortal first before he was a god, reaching aetherius in a different sense

what speculation, he literally holds the sun. a sun is a hole into aetherius, therefore he is holding a hole into aetherius. aetherius is the realm of the gods and so a hole into aetherius can be seen as the way to godhood

and as ive said, he also has imagery of an eagle, which i believe suggests flight, which links to a big old hole to godhood in the sky :P

and its not like him holding a sun is unique to just a single statue, hes consistently represented with it, so the sun must somehow be important to his being

[sand flume]

honestly i feel like we might not necessarily disagree but are talking about slightly different things

[dusky scaffold]

if he holds the sun, he's still on our side, meaning he couldn't have created it by leaving to aetherius

[coral mantle]

it's myths you're talking about, just felt like reminding

[hardy quarry]

You know almost every religion has a different sun god right?

[dusky scaffold]

I only remember magnus...

[sand flume]

yeah we're talking about reaching aetherius in a different sense. im talking in a sense that he was a mortal who escaped his mortal limitation by ascending to godhood (and therefore the home of the gods aetherius), and i dont exactly see how him holding the sun in statue means hes on our side because statues are inherently made to be symbolic, him holding a sun (or sometimes represented as a sun without anyone holding it) means the sun must be important to his existence, he is a sun god

since we know that the sun is a hole into aetherius, its therefore very fitting to interpret auriel as showing the way to aetherius to other mortals (after all ideals of reaching godhood are somewhat central in the aldmeri culture); or in the case of him being symbolised as a sun on its own, he is the hole into aetherius/way to godhood OR the example of how it was achieved

[quartz shuttle]

The problem is, the actual event is so obfuscated by myth and allegory that its impossible to know what really happened

[robust lintel]

Kinda want Aedric armor to be added for Elder Scrolls so it's not just Daedric armor. Make it white, silver, blue as opposed to black, grey, red of Daedric armor. Since daedra armor takes ebony and hearts, I was thinking Aedric could take sort of meteorite or fallen star ore and then something else like the daedra heart, but idk what yet, maybe wing? Give them both same armor stats, but differences in effects possibly or abilities.

[dusky scaffold]

the problem is, the aedra are dead, you can't infuse them in armor

[uncut hatch]

theres auriel's bow and shield and lords mail

theres also smaller ones like stendarr's hammer and i think dibella has a brush?

[uncut hatch]

i kinda like this idea tbh. you can just say the fallen stars fell from the plane(t)s

[robust lintel]

Good, then they won't mind us taking their scattered wings or feathers then lol

Its just a rough idea off the top of my head, I'm sure it can be improved

[hardy quarry]

Aedric equipment already exists

That's why every bit of metal on Tamriel is. It's all made of Aedra 😉

There's the Aetherium star-metal stuff though

[robust lintel]

John makes a good point too. Could have Aedra and Daedra weapon variants with those color differences and a trait based on if its Daedric or Aedric

[hardy quarry]

Which would probably fit more of the idea that you're going with

Especially in aesthetic. And Aedra are also stars in space.

[robust lintel]

Aetherium I always looked at as more of dwarves thing. A mystic armor

Yes, that's why I ssid falling stars or meteorite

[dusky scaffold]

aedra have nothing to do with stars
those are the magna ge

[robust lintel]

But oh well it was just an idea. I like Daedric, but I guess I just wanted more choice when it comes to top-tier armor besides Daedric.

[dusky scaffold]

Dragon

[robust lintel]

And weapons

That was Skyrim though

Daedric is in most titles

[hardy quarry]

The first statement is incorrect and that second statement is half true 😜

TES runs on a Babylonian sort of mythos for the universe. It's the same reason that plane(t)s like Aka's are the eyes of important constellations

[steep elbow]

do chickens really explode in esl?

[hardy quarry]

It's why some Daedric planes are referred to as if they are stars as well

[uncut hatch]

i like knowing i can look at a star and its actually a plane(t)

[robust lintel]

Exploding chickens? First Zelda, then Fable, now ESO. Poor chickens..

[uncut hatch]

its like real life

[dusky scaffold]

the file format, or the game?
but, actually, neither

[robust lintel]

Moving this convo from another channel to this one:

In a way, I feel like you can have some bits of thst mystery revealed while some forms of it never truly answered but still popping up throughout the series. Or better yet, revealing the mystery only to gasp.. reveal another bigger mystery in it's wake.

Is it possible the Dwemer are in Lyg? In the way Lyg is tied to Tamriel as Lorkhan and Akatosh are tied together? Just a random thought I had

Lyg being as mysterious as the Dwemer themselves

I thought Arniel died though? Using Keening without Wraithguard is very dangerous and it is said to cause a quick death without the protection of Wraithguard from Keening and Sunder's unnatural power when being used. Then we see Arniel's shade after the blur ripple from him striking the warped soul gem. Which I think might have some similarity to what triggered the event when the dwemer were using the tools. Arniel only has and used one tool, Keening. Without the hammer to control the volume of the power Keening unleashes and without Wraithguard to shield you from overwhelming power, it is likely to kill you. Being that the Dwemer were interrupted when they were using it, I feel it's possible they too only used Keening on the heart before being interrupted from using Sunder to control the power unleashed. I think he did have Wraithguard on though.. so instead of causing a quick death to the Dwemer race, something else occurred since he was interrupted from using Sunder, like transporting his people tied within that realm since Yagrum was in another realm at the time. And I would've say Falion is wrong in some of his dialogue. One must be very focused when messing with things of great power and maintaining control of it.

I'm not even so certain it was the heart (seemed more like the conduit of desired derived power, like how the Chimer used it for god-like power before they were punished), while it is very powerful yes. The tools themselves seem to be the culprit, almost as if they are tools capable of cutting holes and tapping into the power of creation itself. Is there some lore I can read in how they came to be forged?

I think the heart was the only conduit available where the Dwemer could use these tools to achieve their power desire of creating a God

[sleek grove]

Yea. I think for Kagrenac's Tools they aren't what they were when they'd kill you without Wraithguard. In Skyrim, Keening isn't very viable and it does nothing to you. Or the courier that took not much precaution with it. Triggered Kagrenac's defences that prevented the Tools from leaving Morrowind. Sotha Sil's MK II tools are tied to the artificial Heart of Lorkhan in the Clockwork City so when he inevitably died the city would live. I'd say his tools are very powerful still, although I doubt anyone would be able to reach the heart chamber.

To where the real Heart of Lorkhan was sent idk

Either way I don't think we'll get a solid answer. ZoS wanted to explore the Dwemer mystery but they were told no

[robust lintel]

They said it was destroyed, but I don't believe fully or destroyed in the way you would think. Aedra couldn't even destroy it. Plus the heart is tied to the heart of the mortal world. I think to destroy one would destroy the other?

[hardy quarry]

Based Todd

[robust lintel]

My guess is TH already has plans for the Dwemer and didn't want to give that away to ZoS

[hardy quarry]

Nah the Dwemer are meant to be a mystery and he doesn't want that changed

[sleek grove]

Pretty much

That's why I want to make the best Dwemer mods I can using my passion for them

[robust lintel]

Idk I'm still a believer and can see different approaches to mystery as I brought up before

[sleek grove]

TES VI if it is Hammerfell will explore a clan of Dwemer that had nothing to do with the dissapearence. Might get one reference but not much else

That Clan leader forged two artifacts that are well known

[robust lintel]

I didn't mean necessarily for the next title specifically, but just as the grand story of TES unfolds chapter by chapter

But who knows how much or what information we'll get in the next game in any location

[sleek grove]

I think when the next leader steps in they'll continue or Kalpa reset everything. A reboot kinda, that's just my opinion though

[robust lintel]

Nah I wouldn't reset it. TES is already rich and self-sufficient in its lore and universe

Which I think Starfield will follow suit of that strength

Hopefully the next-gen leader will already be well-versed with those games

[sleek grove]

It depends what way things go. I know BGS won't do full Dwemer in the way I want Dwemer content, but that's my motivation for mods. To make that even though I can't mesh or texture for my life.

Technically my work will be basic but I can put my knowledge to work on the bright side

I think we could see a return to the Clockwork City in VI potentially. Legends cleared up how it survived

I think that's the closest we'll get to full on Dwemer

[robust lintel]

And yea Keening could have been weaker or drained.. cuz its supposed to drain your health when welding it without Wraithguard. But I still think it was strong enough to unleash power to quickly end Arniel'ls life rather than transport him. Even if it took 3 strikes.

I had never heard of Clockwork city prior to ESO tbh

[sleek grove]

I think if Arniel did it at full Keening strength and actually on the heart all Bretons would of vanished

[robust lintel]

Within that realm

[sleek grove]

He did it very weak and on a small scale so he was taken solely

[robust lintel]

Possible

[sleek grove]

Clockwork City is a cool piece of Lore. Take a living God who worked with Dwemer and have him reverse engineer Dwemer stuff and make new stuff and more advanced machines

Add a pocket realm and boom a Dwemer like City without using Dwemer

[robust lintel]

But it's possible that Arniel absorbed it all without wearing Wraithguard. Thus causing an instant death. Now if had done it to the Warped Gem with Wraithguard on, it might have simply transported him is my theory.

[sleek grove]

It's hard to say either way. He doesn't speak to us in his Shade and it costs Nothing to summon him. No hard evidence to say he's dead or alive. He's defiently somewhere as one of the only shades in the game afaik

Falion's potential lies about meeting Dwemer while wandering Oblivion could be just that. But there is evidence that he wouldn't lie too. He's raising an apprentice, master at conjuration, cures Vampirism in Skyrim, and is known at the College of Winterhold. The Vampirism part in Lore is done by many mages but he's the only one to offer it in Skyrim. I think if he was to brag he'd brag not in passing but with full on boasting.

[robust lintel]

I think K managed to have had Wraithguard on while he used Keening on the heart. But was interrupted before he could use Sunder to control that power. Thus I think something else happened which caused the vanishing of an entire race linked to its user and not just himself. Meanwhile the tools worked for the Chimers desires when using all three on the heart. But as you said it is also possible Keening was at full strength during this time which is why an entire race vanished instead of one person. And then after the Chimes used it on the heart and we use it to destroy the heart.. it is certainly possible it has been degraded after all that.

But yeah I don't thonk the Dwemer were killed from it. Would we have an entire race of Dwemer shades running around Tamriel? Lol

[sleek grove]

Kagrenac seemed to had used the Calling as he stuck the heart

Which was expanded through ESO, we know how it works

Headgear, basically a Telephone. Telepathy in another word. The headgear lets you use it without learning Telepathy directly it seems

Ofc in ESO you only have replicas of the gear

[robust lintel]

Some ppl say he was referring to meeting Yagrum as he does say "A Dwemer." But which one? I do not know. Maybe he conjured one too as I think there is actually one ghost Dwemer somewhere in the game series.

But it could of been potential communication with one of the vanished Dwemer too

[sleek grove]

Usually Dwemer is a term for a group in Tamreillic afaik. At least that's how I use it, Dwarf would be the singular term to me

I think if Yagrum lives and for sure Fyr wouldn't of let his most valuable item die in the Red Year, then he'll be where ever Fyr is. Also BGS will probably keep him in reserve till they need a plot aid

[robust lintel]

Interesting. But will this tie in to the traditional lore of TES or just in ZoS lore version?

[sleek grove]

It works in lore

The Calling was vague before. The Dwemer mod I use for races as a dependancy on my content has it as a passive ability

The headgear set was added in 2017 or 2018 with the Dwarven Crates

[robust lintel]

Yes but he said "a" dwemer, instead of just saying dwemer. Which is what stuck out to me.

[sleek grove]

He said: "I've met Daedra, Dwemer and everything inbetween"

Hang on lemme delve for the quote. Always takes me forever to find it lol

[robust lintel]

I will have to go back and look. They might have had a typo in the article then

That's interesting line though. I like how he says "everything inbetween" right after mentioning meeting the Dwemer. 🤔

Possibly even a plane between Daedra and our own? But I'm really reaching here

[sleek grove]

"I have met Daedra and Dwemer and everything in between and I know enough to see a vampire where others would see a man."

Found it

[robust lintel]

Ok ty

[sleek grove]

Imo i think if you are to brag or lie then make more of it than this

Falion just doesn't strike me as a liar

[robust lintel]

No I never thought he was lying about it either, I mean why even bother about it?

[sleek grove]

It's defiently one of the things that still hits long after Skyrim came out. To me anyway

Two things added to the mystery but both just asked more questions. I believe that was intentional. I think if they touch is slightly which will be minimum it'll just keep asking questions

[robust lintel]

He is a conjurer.. it is possible in his summonings he has gotten dead Dwemer too, ones that died naturally on Tamriel before the vanishing?

[sleek grove]

I have one of my Dwemer Spectors in my mod as someone who died at Red Mountain early in the war

All Dwemer alive on Nirn at the time of Kagrenac doing this desperate move are gone. The dead stayed ofc

[robust lintel]

I'm still very interested however in how Lyg is tied to Tamriel as Lorkhan is tied to Akatosh. I def still have a lot of reading to do

Thats a cool idea for a mod and believable in the events of the lore

[sleek grove]

Except those outside Mundus like Yagrum Bagarn, or in my living Dwarf's case; sent forward in time because of a Tonal Resonator error

There are loopholes to use Dwemer in headcanons

BGS kinda dropped the ball with the Snow Elf reveal in Skyrim then topped it with a Full Pure Snow Elf in Dawnguard

[robust lintel]

I need to replay DG. The lore was interesting on that side of things

[sleek grove]

It's kinda sad to me what happened but they did it to themselves

They went to war with the Atmorans

[robust lintel]

Yea they ate that fungus or something right? Causing their blindness

[sleek grove]

Although those who didn't go with the Dwemer went to the Forgotten Vale where they lived oeacefully for around 2000 more years inbetween High Rock and Skyrim. After that 2000 years the Twisted ones invaded and killed a bunch of the proper Snow Elves afaik

[sleek grove]

With what Gelebor says there might have been more at work. See the Dwemer in their agreement with the Falmer in the Markarth Musean Tablet talks about the 15 tones. Which to Dwemer is tonal manipulation

Falmer don't have Grand Souls

Gelebor does so putting two and two together

[robust lintel]

Interesting experiment work

[sleek grove]

Also implies what Dynamo Cores are, Big Soul containers.

[robust lintel]

In a way.. the cores reminded me of like miniature planes of oblivion. Capable of holding multiple souls at a time for bigger demands on power

[sleek grove]

In Morrowind the Animunculi works off a region thing that can be altered to work outside on individual Animunculi. So for example a Dwemer Spider dkes outside the area, well bring it back and it'll work. Same with how the Clockwork City works, it's a Tonal work which makes it hard for things to leave.

The point of me saying all this is because when the Dwemer left Morrowind they had to go to Soul Magic to power their things

Falmer need shelter and Dwemer need souls

[robust lintel]

That's true. Even in Skyrim they seem to have boundaries. Like you never see them out wandering the wilderness

[sleek grove]

The Falmer pair I Use in my mod is a redemption arc of sorts. A true Falmer wants to aid a Twisted one in a society. Ofc not much there but it's a nod from me. Even Gelebor suggests maybe one day they can find Auri-El again

[robust lintel]

Maybe they will

[sleek grove]

They are fairly intelligent since they can still use magic and make weapons

And understand language and enslaving surface people

Plus they invaded the lost forgotten vale and slaughtered a bunch of their untwisted cousins

[robust lintel]

How did they even know they were there in the forgotten vale?

[sleek grove]

Hard to say could of been planned

They seem to understand tactics

When people flocked through a tunnel from Morrowind to Skyrim they were picked off by Falmer overtime

During thw Red Year

[robust lintel]

Maybe some kind of sense of their own kind. Sense of smell that even though they are twisted, they still recognize that familiarity

[sleek grove]

They know how to tame Chaurus' well enough

ESO afaik added how exactly that works. (Hold the eggs to your heart i think)

[robust lintel]

Hah that is clever. They learn to recognize your heartbeat very young

Chaurus must be very sensitive to vibrations

Like some real insects

[sleek grove]

I find them horrifying to look at, esspecially the Hunters but It's cool that they still have society in check.

[robust lintel]

And also why you might see Chaurus eggs in the Falmer homes sometimes close where they sleep. Though I always thought it was a source of food for them too

[sleek grove]

I have one in my mod as a pet to my twisted Falmer as I though it fit enough. Tamed but on testing I was freaked out. The one house I avoid lol

[robust lintel]

Lol

[hardy quarry]

Dwemer are in fact very "dead."

Except for whatever was in Oblivion, like Kagrenac

If any of those out there still live.

[sleek grove]

We know Dwemer outposts were in Oblivion. Probably why the Aetherial Staff summons Spheres or Spiders

[robust lintel]

I disagree. And it's not like it's ever been revealed with certainty what happened

[hardy quarry]

It was actually, a long time ago

We do know more or less what happened to them.

It's an open secret at this point

[sleek grove]

Yagrum was in a place named Plot Device. Well other than that Outer Realm could be Aetherius as that's what the Battlespire is

[hardy quarry]

I assume going by Falion that being in Oblivion counts as well

Falion could be lying but I'm being charitable with him like you are

[robust lintel]

Why would he lie though and about that.

[hardy quarry]

Outer Realm just seems to mean "outside Mundus"

[sleek grove]

Only be fair. I also like all angles

[hardy quarry]

I don't know, that's why I'm taking him seriously

The only Dwemer in Oblivion are going to be stragglers or exiles that got "lucky"

I guess whether they are lucky or not depends on their point of view

Yagrum doesn't seem to think any other survived out there but if there are any out there he probably just haven't met them. I imagine it's very rare.

[sleek grove]

I know they'll never have a full Dwemer themed DLC or huge chunk about deep Dwemer Lore. At best I think we'll see either Yagrum Bagarn again as he was in Legends and/or the Clockwork City in 6 DLC. Clockwork imo is the closest BGS would do

[hardy quarry]

There's deep Dwemer lore in TES5 wdym

There's a whole tablet full of it. People just won't dissect Dwemeris to understand it

[sleek grove]

I meant anything close to the mystery of what happened. My bad lol

[hardy quarry]

Oh, that's old hat

[robust lintel]

Is it ever fully explained what Yagrum was doing in this other realm?

[hardy quarry]

Nope

[sleek grove]

Nope, just Plot device land

Afaik it was written intoa corner

[robust lintel]

Because what if it wasn't the fact he was in another realm that shielded him.. but more of what it was that he was doing at the time of the vanishing?

[sleek grove]

Yagrum was a solution to a problem

[proper ice]

Arniel was IIRC

[hardy quarry]

The Dwemer became the golden skin of a giant robot called Anumidium

[sleek grove]

It answered a little but asked more questions

[hardy quarry]

Certain individuals forced the entire race to be joined as one oversoul and collect them together to form a new god

[proper ice]

It basically confirmed the numidium thing for me 🤷‍♂️

[hardy quarry]

Yes the Arniel thing is further evidence for the Numidium thing

But yeah what happened can't be undone. The Dwemer race is effectively gone and will never return

[robust lintel]

To me, Arniel instantly died, rather than what happened to the Dwemer.

[hardy quarry]

His essence remained bonded to you though

What does that sound like?

[proper ice]

Like a spiritual bonding

[sleek grove]

I stay open to everything. Like I say I like all angles and to remain open.

It's a mystery that is strong

[hardy quarry]

I think you can be open to new things and still understand that there is evidence which leads to certain conclusions....

[robust lintel]

We see his shade in Tamriel, but why not an entire race of Dwemer shades?

[hardy quarry]

Bethesda could decide tomorrow that the Dwemer all turned into cats and suggest that everything before now is false

That doesn't mean we should discount evidence because the Dwemer could have been morphed into cats

[hardy quarry]

Yes, we see his shade

[robust lintel]

That is true. The lore is not always concrete as it seems. It is flexible.

[hardy quarry]

Also we have to summon him to do it

We can just bring him out. He is bonded to us though. That's where he went.

[sleek grove]

Yea lol. When I say "stay open" I know the likelyhood of the conclusions but my fun comes from reading it all

[hardy quarry]

Long long ago someone put together the pieces of the puzzle and said what they thought happened to the Dwemer, and then a dev confirmed it

[robust lintel]

Think it has something to do with the soul gem. Was kinda random getting that spell

[hardy quarry]

So yeah, this is old hat

Future evidence will continue to point to a Numidium outcome more than likely

I'm more interested in how the Dwemer thought about things myself

[sleek grove]

I based my Dwemer off Radac from Tribunal

Complete sarcastic Mer

Well the Spectors won't speak to you but the 3 that do are like that

[hardy quarry]

I get the feeling they were way too serious but I could be wrong

[sleek grove]

They afaik were very technical

If you repeated questions or said something dumb they'd mock you and insult your intelligence

[robust lintel]

I think they just thought higher and reached higher than most

[hardy quarry]

They destroyed themselves

[robust lintel]

Like the world wasn't enough for them, they needed more

[hardy quarry]

They wanted to win

They saw the game of the Arena and they intended to win it

[robust lintel]

I don't even think it was about winning anything. I think they thought beyond that.

[hardy quarry]

And they wanted their ideals to win specifically

[sleek grove]

Yagrum I see as softy given he's like a nerf. Radac in Tribunal is what my Dwemer are based off attitude wise

[hardy quarry]

No that is what the voice of the entire race says when it is Numidium

[robust lintel]

They loved to know how things worked, take em apart, experiment

[hardy quarry]

The only thing that makes them say YES

I think they had huge problems with the way the world was and believed it could be more, and they wanted to make that true. And ultimately wanted to be the victors

And they were willing to shed their own existences to do it. Some of them anyways

[sleek grove]

I think the ways to use Dwemer in headcanons is enough for my enthusiastic brain to take shape in content

Either have them in an outer realm or send them forward in time past the event. Or just have them as a Spector

[robust lintel]

I think they are more in between like Lyg

[sleek grove]

I'd use Yagrum if I knew how to mesh and get a custom animation set to do it

My Dwarf is enough for what I have set up

[robust lintel]

I don't think actually went forward or backwards in time, despite big brother N. Rather transitioned right thru it like it was nothing and didn't exist. Like they were punching holes into creation itself.

[sleek grove]

I mean one way to have living Dwemer in a lore friendly way

We already know Dwemer delved into Tonal Magic that altered time

Not a stretch that a malfunction could send one forward by accident

[robust lintel]

Certainly not

[sleek grove]

I did have a solo discussion whether or not to do the outer realm thing, but I wrote it in a night while reading the wiki again

[robust lintel]

But what if they ended up going past that goal in their experiment? Maybe not intentionally

I mean when you're messing with that stuff, anything could happen

[sleek grove]

I think it was MK who said they could of ended up in the 9th Era. Can be debated if any truth is in that line

Definitively we have the best answers and they'll never outright tell us directly

They'll point metaphorically but not speak

[robust lintel]

No not goal in the timeline, though possible. I meant maybe they went past their goal regarding time and into pockets of creation

I think there is a right time for everything. I think it has been good keeping it a mystery up to this point, yet littering crumbs of it along the way

[sleek grove]

Theres a weird triangle between Dwemer, Chimer and Orcs

[robust lintel]

Triangles are always dangerous, like the Bermuda Triangle

[sleek grove]

King Dumac of the Dwemer had 3 nicknames/titles. Dumac Dwarfking, Dumalacath, and Dumac Dwarf-Orc

Also iirc some dev interview said something about the Dwemer being a house or something. It's 4AM my brain is off rn lol

5 now

[robust lintel]

Yea they like their 3's. It took 3 strikes of Keening from Arniel. And you had to use 3 dwemer convectors on the warped gem.

3 tools of k.

[sleek grove]

I suck at the timeline of which I only remember the Dwemer significant dates. Two being 420 and 700

I need to work out the exact number of years between the dissapearence of the Dwemer and ESO, and Skyrim. Rounds up to 4000 years I knew but I need to sit down one night and do it

[robust lintel]

I agree would be interesting info 👍

[robust lintel]

I mean I know the whole Num thing and MK's comments on the subject, but given that, why keep it a secret if its not even a secret anymore? Todd Howard is pretty tight-lipped on it, despite this being old news and all over the interwebz for a long, long time anyway.. most people already know. My guess is either it was throwing shade on it at that time confirming what a fan wrote. OR they have since changed it from what it was. Cause if I wanted to keep something a secret in-game, you can bet I would throw shade or even confirm a false narrative. Furthermore, throwing in bits in each game that support that theory only to pull the rug out from under you later on, surprise! 😱

[proper ice]

I remember I had one character who was a Redguard scholar/adventurer that liked Dwemer stuff, he would study whatever new stuff he found but eventually he found a lexicon which made his fascination into obsession, he would hunt down more and more lexicons(I had them so that he was damaging his mind by taking in such vast amounts of knowledge) and his obsession became madness, he eventually started to think that he was a dwemer in the sense that one of the lexicons contained the mind upload of a dwemer who wanted to avoid death so whoever would take in the cube would be taken over by him. This was not true but he deluded himself into it(I considered making it like DID but idk it well enough to do it justice), as one would imagine he eventually got into Mora service courtesy of signus’ dwemer cube and long story short, he figured out that if he used the Oghma Infinium and the Razor in conjunction, he could figure out how to use the razor to cut himself into a new shape for he considered the redguard body to be inferior to a dwemer one, so he did and boom, dwemer character

[robust lintel]

Ah, so that's the Dwemer that Falion was referring too..

[proper ice]

Mine? Maybe lol, he probs got told off too

[robust lintel]

😋

[dusky scaffold]

You are talking like MK's take on it is the definitive truth
I however think that the only truth is that there is no truth

[sleek grove]

I saw someone do a book bound story with a Dwemer OC. I thought it was cool as a workaround.

I went with a time forward jump because it was easy for me to explain. Idk why but I picture what Dr. Strange experienced in the movie as he was sent through the Mutiverse. Probably not at all how it works but I like to picture it.

In particular one part of the Multiverse journey. Most of it would make no sence given that scene

[quartz crane]

Not just MK's comments. There was a (c) Bethesda interview that spelled out the Dwemer becoming the Numidium even before TES3 was written. Some of the text of the interview was made into in-game books later, too.

It's possible that they've either changed their minds, or Todd just wants to appear mysterious and all-knowing. There were a whole loaf of breadcrumbs left in TES3 on the matter, even a Mages Guild quest that gives you all the pieces. Doesn't spell it out in as bald a set of terms as the interview.

[sleek grove]

I'm exploring Dwemer ashpiles from Tribunal, most of what I'm pulling from is Morrowind, and some ESO stuff that I like

With ESO mostly the Calling and A time Tonal Resonator

[brave shoal]

i remember reading something along the line that there a prophecy about all mer race being needed in the far future and the dwemer by trying to do whatever they did with the numidium/golem thing just created a time warp (like what happened to the dragon) and arent truly gone since they are needed to return for that far future prophecy

[sleek grove]

(ESO didn't add the Calling but it expanded it)

Concretely we'll never know, I'm cool with that

[brave shoal]

forgot details and names, i remember watching a youtube video about theory for what happened to the dwemer and that was one of the main theory guy had

[proper ice]

That is cool

[quartz crane]

Not seen anything to suggest such a prophecy. It sounds like someone just smashed Alduin's storyline together with Septimus Signus' quest.

[sleek grove]

Prophecy? All I needed to know was a Tonal Resonator could break time to know I could have my time incident to work with my OC. What i take from the Calling is just that headgear was involved in a book and that's it.

[slender latch]

Definitely not official.

[quartz crane]

@sleek grove Ah sorry, I misquoted you rather than @brave shoal' post. Sorry!

[sleek grove]

We all make errors lol. No worries 😄

[robust lintel]

Not mine personally, but I know a lot of ppl take this solution

[stark socket]

Some details of the Disappearance (divine skin symbolism et al) probably remain hidden in esoterica, and the question if they had success by their own anti-standards when Kagrenac applied the Tools is most difficult to answer. But the background and reasoning that made them to build Numidium as champion of their worldview is quite clear since TES3 (plus various comments), and in this regard, I consider the Disappearance to be pretty much solved.

[sleek grove]

MK to me gives incite to what they might have been thinking when he worked at BGS during that time.

Although we'll never get a answer I think the door is open to people that want to use Dwemer in their content

Find a reason and roll with it

[stark socket]

The Very Last Last Dwarf .... 🙄

[robust lintel]

I thought it weird for MK to comment on it yet, Bethesda insists on keeping it a mystery? The actions just don't add up. I think they had already decided to change the writing there before MK spoke about it publicly. So yes, it could be anything, but only within the limits of the lore itself. Of course, this too can change and evolve. That's the beauty in writing, you can add even the smallest patch of writing to something and change it entirely no matter how it was before or how long.

[sleek grove]

I think even in Morrowind they say Yagrum is the last known. The Wiki's say it too. To quote Yagrum: "This is how I style myself. I do not know for a fact that I am the last. But in my travels thousands of years ago. I never encountered another. And since I have been here, I often ask Lord Fyr, but he says he has never heard a credible rumor of another Dwemer, on Tamriel, or in any Outer Realm."

However, BGS will probably never use another Dwemer in the way they used yagrum as he served the plot more than anything

The door of maybe more is a fan thing to do to me

Kinda like Falmer, I've seen people run stories with their own toons of Snow Elves. Quite cool, I can never get them to look right in ESO tho

Knight-Paladin Gelebor suggests more Falmer could have survived the Twisted Falmer invasion of the Forgotten vale

i think anyway lol

I can see Dwemer Spector's coming back in a slight capacity, something else to fight in ruins

[robust lintel]

Whats the connection with Dwarven metal and soul gems? Such as in Arniel's experiment and how I'm always finding empty soul gems on Dwarven constructs.

[sleek grove]

Nothing afaik, Soul Gems were only used outside Morrowind to power things. What Arniel did was use a heated warped Soul Gem that wasn't able to capture souls. idk how it worked

Just a substitute to the heart of Lorkhan in theory. Whatever he did worked in some capacity

[slender latch]

Easy enough to do. Make them magic holograms

[sleek grove]

Pretty much, my Spectors in my Dwemer city appear normal but have that Sovngarde effect instead. outside they are just ghosts basically

Still dead, but something different as kinda what I'm doing is an afterlife. not really though Just has an aura like Sovngarde does when you see the fallen nords in the Hall of Valor

It's a cool effect too

It'd be cool in TES VI to see the Redguard afterlife

[uncut hatch]

Far shores would be cool

[native olive]

Didn't we see a small part of it in ESO?

[uncut hatch]

you get to see it a bit in eso but its kinda plebby

||you were also supposed to die there so ahaha||

[sleek grove]

I forgot we do, I wonder if we'd see the Ebony Warrior there. He didn't go to Sovngarde afaik

[native olive]

tbf ||you were kinda "supposed" to die everywhere in eso. like literally everything is actively trying to kill you||

[sleek grove]

I just like the Afterlife effect they have in Skyrim

It's a spell to the Ghost effect script

[uncut hatch]

||yeah but Septima Tharn knows you're the vestige and actively got you to the far shores to kill you||

||totally didn't look just up what her name was btw||

[native olive]

i'm sure more experienced lorebeards would be able to answer this better but uh

can the vestige actually die?

[uncut hatch]

mayhaps but having a vestige means you cant die like a normal person. you'll need to do something special

[quartz shuttle]

In Skyrim theh explain that the Soul Gem serves as an element when charged with unknown energies (not a soul) to heat the tank of oil that Dwemer constructs use to move

[uncut hatch]

|| umaril had to be killed while he was reforming and he was a demiprince||

[sleek grove]

My Lore extends to mostly Dwemer. Some Falmer and some Chimer from the First Council.

Mostly just Dwemer

[uncut hatch]

my lore is mostly daedra stuff

[sleek grove]

Everyone has their strong areas

I just fell in Love with Dwemer once I found Alftand in 2013

Then I wanted to learn a bit more around Dwemer once I'd read everything, so I started with Falmer

Can't tell you their religion though past Auri-El

[uncut hatch]

i wanted to make a mod a year ago about daedra and i needed all the knowledge i could find on them. now my brain is filled with useless knowledge i wont use cause i cant mod and it doesn't work too well as a story without a faceless hero

[sleek grove]

Every now and then i check up on the Dwemer Wiki pages and such to make sure I haven't missed anything new from ESO

[sleek grove]

I had this headcanon I'm working into a mod. Making Dwemer content is my dream, it's worth it with passion

My Toon Living Dwarf's weakness is he suffers mentally, as I do. he's a projection of me

[uncut hatch]

i hope it goes well

[sleek grove]

I took how Yagrum Bagarn felt being alone, but mine found people to call friends on returning

And isn't trapped in the same way, but the full Spectors mostly won't speak to the player from that Dwemer Ego

[uncut hatch]

i like this idea

[sleek grove]

My Dwarf will still have an attitude, but I'm making a new type of Dwemeris too

Exactly the same but structured like the common talk. (No punctuation tho)

I didn't want to touch Normal Dwemeris too much as it's a fragmented language rn.

I'm following the lore as best I can and trying to word things right. I'm sure I'll get a tiny bit wrong but hopefully not.

Hell, my name is Dwarven

[uncut hatch]

oh you're going all out on this. i really wanna see this mod go through now

sorry if im saying stuff weirdly

[sleek grove]

It'll only be on PC due to a dependency sadly but eventually I want to remake it and hire mesh and texturing artists to remove it. restructure a bit and add more stuff for it.

But I really like the Dwemer Lore which is my motivation

I don't think my mod will be very popular but I'm still giving it my all

I think my favourite piece of Dwemer Lore is easily Tonal Manipulation and its many applications

[robust lintel]

Tinkering with all that Dwemer lore, Yzradlen will soon become the next Arniel.. POOF! Lol jk

[sleek grove]

I'm just making a interconnected set of mods of what I would like to see. 😄 Mods going forward will be on console and share a narrative of my Dwarf and what he's done since ESO

I like connected stories, probably why i like the MCU alot lol

Using Dwemer words we know in Lore I made a Dwemeris City name based off the ESO Lore added about the Calling being used by Headgear. afaik before we didn't really know how such an ability functioned. Now we do, kinda. a basic rundown of headsets connecting in a "Tuathumz" or "central pylon"

[modest helm]

In my opinion, "What happened to the Dwemer? Numidium happened" is as good as answer as we need

[native olive]

I thought it was more that Kagrenac and the Heart happened, and Numidium was the result

[modest helm]

Xal's account in "Skeleton Man" combined with the account in "Nerevar at Red Mountain" point to the Dwemer having put their souls into Numidium before the Battle of Red Mountain, i.e. they didn't disappear immediately in the process of their souls being put in

But whatever specifically happened at Red Mountain that caused the Dwemer to disappear, it was most certainly related directly to Numidium