#elder-scrolls-lore

1 messages · Page 30 of 1

quartz shuttle
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That's why i say it's going to take some real writers. The trick is to make you feel like you ahve control, while not actually giving you any. And when you realisse you don't actually have control, to give you enough options to cover potential character approaches.

hardy quarry
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By the same logic, just designing a game at all means you can't have as much freedom as a table top game

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Because game design for vidya inherently closes off options

hardy quarry
quartz shuttle
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For instance, you could write the Civil War in such a way that you have 2, 3 even 4 distinct factions; Empire, Stormcloak, Thalmor, Balgruf. And each is their own story, their own character interactons, their own relationships. But all contribute to the same overarching story.

keen briar
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I think a broad world is fine. Just needs a less trope filled plot and characters.

hardy quarry
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Well yeah they went and had a plot anyways with little choices

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I think doing that for the main quest is fine. Just do it better.

quartz shuttle
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All i'm saying is, they need smarter writing.

hardy quarry
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I don't think anyone disagrees with that

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For the record I think BGS excels at a type of writing most companies don't

quartz shuttle
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Which, to be entirely honest, is in short supply in Gaming. When The Last of Us is held to be some grand achievement in storytelling, you know you have a low bar.

hardy quarry
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I think they really excel at environmental subtle narrative

quartz shuttle
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Agreed.

hardy quarry
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Some people do not connect with that

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And they want tv show characters, which is sort of what Fallout 4 did

quartz shuttle
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Some of the environmental stories in Fallout 4, or even 76? Absolutely brilliant.

hardy quarry
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I'm here for the lived-in world, so I don't really care about the tv show characters

keen briar
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Same

quartz shuttle
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Unfortunately, as with many things in gaming these days, if you want to be on top, you ahve to do both

hardy quarry
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I don't agree tbh

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Trying to do everything is why AAA publishing is failing

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And then they try to fund it all with monetization nonsense

quartz shuttle
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But it's also what people demand of it. Which is a self perpetuating problem

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It's not really acheivable, but it's what people expect, so they just keep trying.

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Because, well... Consumers suck

hardy quarry
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If that's the case, Bethesda will fail no matter what and TES6 can't be a success

quartz shuttle
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Again, i always assume the worst, so... Yes.

hardy quarry
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Always assuming the worst is about as legit as always assuming the best 😉

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I think it's best to assume less

quartz shuttle
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it is a very real possibility that the AAA gaming industry implodes on it's self due to it's own fiscal irresponsibility and the constantly increasing demands of an insatiable consumer base.

hardy quarry
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Tbf to the consumers, the PR sections of companies try to sell them the world and straight up lie about games

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But yeah, consumers are also insatiable unfair creatures

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Very entitled.

quartz shuttle
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Like, i always get a laugh out of Jimquisition, when he says something idiotic like "No one cares about graphics!", and then i go over to some trailer, and it's just a bunch of morons complaining about the graphics.

hardy quarry
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Yeah truth is a lot of people care about graphics

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Game look pretty. Me happy.

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Me like looking at pretty thing.

hearty hornet
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Yep, the main reason I uninstalled Cyberpunk two days after release was that I was sold a game that turned out not to exist. I was lied to

coral mantle
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have anybody watched Emil P's talk at some swedish conference, about writing in games? reddit made a joke out of his main 'rule', the Keep it Simple Stupid. dont try to write a novel he says, make a game that people play

hardy quarry
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I knew from the start that CDPR was lying 🤣

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People said similar stuff about the Witcher

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That it was everything TES was exactly but with more. Which isn't true.

quartz shuttle
hardy quarry
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It's good to be suspicious of anything that is portrayed to be fundamentally better than their competitors in every area

quartz shuttle
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So gameplay should always come first.

hardy quarry
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Games can be good with good gameplay and bad narrative, but games cannot be great without good narrative

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Narrative adds emotional depth and weight to the things you do and becomes something you remember.

hearty hornet
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I really thought Cyberpunk would deliver. Lots of development time. A few times the release was delayed because they wanted to iron out flaws, or so we were told

quartz shuttle
hardy quarry
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Dude I wanted it to be good. I love the old 80s cyberpunk tabletop games

hardy quarry
hearty hornet
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But the world was just empty. And many of the features that sold the game to me literally only existed in the first mission which was released to the public pre-release via showcase

hardy quarry
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I've never seen a game live up to the hype Cyberpunk had though

quartz shuttle
hardy quarry
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Lots of hype trains over the years. The end product never meets the hype.

coral mantle
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players can get distracted any time in their kind of games, no point making some emotional twists and turns, i suppose

quartz shuttle
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Like, if it was done, why are we still seeing "early builds"?

hearty hornet
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And project red had some good faith with me. But, yeah. Once again, pre-order, get bitten

quartz shuttle
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Don't get me wrong, i still played Cyberpunk. I still enjoyed Cyberpunk. But.. well...

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@topaz dome will vouch for my smack talking CDPR over the years, and man, did i feel vindicated with that release.

hardy quarry
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Witcher 3 was good from what I hear

quartz shuttle
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Oh, it's an excelent game. But even it is full of lies

hardy quarry
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But people talked them up to be the messiah of game designers

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I don't think an open world game has come close to unseating Skyrim yet, despite all the grumpiness about it.

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Skyrim still sells well.

hearty hornet
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I havent re-installed it. Ill get to it eventually, maybe.

quartz shuttle
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The promised modding tools? Never released. The promise of every NPC being interactive? Deceptive, most are just drones you can't even attack. The promise that every single NPC would have a home and job and a place int he world etc? Nope.

hearty hornet
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After two days I realised I wasnt having any fun and I uninstalled

coral mantle
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how did Witcher 3 get over 'being distracted by side quests' problem? was it long cut scenes? hadnt played much

hardy quarry
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Witcher 3 from what I saw had most NPCs be unfleshed out and unimportant

quartz shuttle
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Go to town, talk to peasant, investigate death, talk to peasant again, track monster, kill monster, collect reward.

coral mantle
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side quests in Cyberpunk were absolutely irrelevant for dying V's story, so im wondering how did their authors get there

hardy quarry
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Honestly I thought Fallout 4 was really great with quests and setting

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There's just one problem. You run out of quests fast

quartz shuttle
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I found the side quests in Cyberpunk mostly enjoyable. But, again, irrelevent to the mains story.

hardy quarry
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Like yeah the FO4 factions were not well written at all

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But I enjoyed most of the quests

quartz shuttle
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Even mechanically, like, it's Dialogue System is fantastic, but it's just so poorly utilised.

hearty hornet
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I thought FO4 had some atrocious writing at points

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I understand suspension of disbelief, that's fine. And Im not one to nitpick fantasy to death. But the kid in the fridge really rubbed me the wrong way

hardy quarry
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And sure okay. Whatever. At least the DLCs will be...nope. More legos.

quartz shuttle
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Yeah, that was definitely a bummer

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As much as i did enjoy the building, it was too heavily integrated.

hardy quarry
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I get the feeling that the dialogue system probably cut down the amount of quests they could have as well

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I was fine with the dialogue system I guess but man, I just wanted more quests

hearty hornet
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Also, Bethesda has been streamlining by removing content since Morrowind and I think FO4 reached the point where the removed features started impacting enjoyment of the game. No karma. No skills. A dialogue system that went to the same result whatever you chose

hardy quarry
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I wanted more of a reason to actually get out and explore Boston

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So many quests didn't make you do much of that. There are entire sections without any quests at all

quartz shuttle
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The thing about the dialogue system is they artifically limited it.

hearty hornet
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I loved the world. And I have good memories of whatshisname, my synth detective companion

hardy quarry
hearty hornet
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But it's just not a game I wanted to keep replaying like I did Morrowind and Oblivion

coral mantle
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every building has a story though. not marked as a quest, but a story anyway

quartz shuttle
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The only used single-layer options, which we know from Companion Management isn't actually a baked in limitation, but rather just poor usage. They COULD have done far more with it, they just didn't put more work into it.

hardy quarry
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It fit Fallout and what they were doing with it well enough

quartz shuttle
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As far as the character system goes, when you actually get down to the numbers, it takes longer in Fallout 4 (and Skyrim for that matter) to 'Complete a Build' than it does in previous games.

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It's just approched differently, which, because it's an unfamiliar approach, rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

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Especially since they didn't really ahve anything that explains any of those differences.

hearty hornet
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Nice to have found you guys here. 🙂 Im going to sleep. I dont tend to be on discord much but Ill try to keep visiting

hardy quarry
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Skyrim's system was good too. I don't think they should change it much in the next game

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They really knocked it out of the park with the skill/perk system

quartz shuttle
hardy quarry
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Not only that they even did it in a way that integrated with the setting

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It's the actual stars painting your story and watching you

quartz shuttle
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But i do think Skyrim's system could offer one of the best RPG foundations we've ever seen

hardy quarry
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I know they have to have a hook to get people playing but TES6 should have one that's like....half the like of TES5's opening hook.

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And the character creation itself should be similar to Morrowind's

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I'm a sucker for doing things immersively.

brave shoal
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i wonder which prison we will spawn in in ES6

hardy quarry
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I like that in Morrowind, some census officer asks you questions and you designing your character is just you telling the census officer stuff about you

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They sort of try to do that in TES5 but it doesn't land as well

coral mantle
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prison of social distancing <3

hardy quarry
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Same reason I like the perk system

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it's more immersive.

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The journal was great in Oblivion. They should bring some aspects of that back too.

quartz shuttle
quartz shuttle
# hardy quarry it's more immersive.

Immersion is an awkward thing that i personally don't like considering when designing things. largely because what is immersive to me, tends to be not immersive to others...

brave shoal
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my brain say it will be in highrock/breton area,but that either me based on 2 year old speculation ive read on reddit or i'm insane/predicting the future xD

hardy quarry
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It's a really good design philosophy for RPGs

quartz shuttle
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Agreed in principle, but in execution it can be a little more complicated

hardy quarry
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I don't agree 🙂

brave shoal
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also depend, some complain that their immersion was ruined in fallout 3 because they had a dad and a quest to find him, other like myself can ignore that and still pretend i'm a ghoul scavenger and dont worry

quartz shuttle
hardy quarry
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Well to be transparent I do a lot of tabletop

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I do not design video games.

brave shoal
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would be ironic, me who liked to side with thalmor when possible in skyrim, end up a prisoner of them

hardy quarry
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But since I understand the general principle of how to do it in tabletop, and have seen that applied in video games, I think it wouldn't be too complicated for most things

coral mantle
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you wanna play tes6 with character from skyrim, Herrius?

hardy quarry
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This is immersion I'm talking about btw, not realism. They aren't quite the same thing

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Immersion is just about you interacting with the game as a game less

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And realism is a difficult standard for anyone to do

quartz shuttle
hardy quarry
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Because the more you try, paradoxically the less it seems real

brave shoal
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or if the argonian dont look as weird as in skyrim, i may redo my ESO argonian sorcerer for that game

quartz shuttle
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Here's a lore question for folks. If you could design a single province, which province would itbe, and how?

hardy quarry
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Cyrodiil

coral mantle
quartz shuttle
hardy quarry
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I probably wouldn't go fully back to PGE1, I'd find a happy medium between PGE1 and the current design

brave shoal
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well, my main in skyrim sold her soul to everything for power (hermaus moira remain number 1 in her dark heart) and was a vampire lord, so living thousand of years wont be mind bending to me

quartz shuttle
brave shoal
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heard that wood elves where cannibal, not sure going there will go well for me who fear cannibals ^^'

coral mantle
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thought about Valenwood too, but i'd just cut out cannibalistic savages from it. don't give me valenwood

quartz shuttle
brave shoal
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still, can i open a oblivion gate or two just to be sure in their forest? /s

coral mantle
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they have a word for ritualistic dish, uthrappa if im spelling it right. made from meaty bits of important guests

brave shoal
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wait, they eat bits of their guests? that it, i'm burning the forest

coral mantle
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i cant remember why they must eat corpses actually. just a tradition?

hardy quarry
quartz shuttle
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But i would make them. I'd first make the Green Pact a Divine Pact, it's not something Bosmer can opt out of. I'd then rebuild their entire culture around that, and being unable to use plants in any way, at least directly.

For the province it's self, i'd cut out the Mangroves nonsense, at least in the inner forest. Mile high trees and a canopy so thick you can have entire groves of lesser trees in the boughs of the Graht Oaks. The Bosmer cultivate giant aphids, and ride giant Flying squirrels, and have highways made of linked branches.

The province it's self is roughly divided into 4 'levels. The Ground, a broken, tortured landscape torn apart by massive roots. Remnants of Ayleid settlements and the old Imperial Highway weave their way through what is basically a bunch of canyons, fed by an almost constant light rain filtering through the trees themselves. The Imga are the most common inhabitants of this level.

The Lower Green is where most of the Bosmer live, spending their entire lives in the trees. Moving through the branches, cultivating their wildlife, and remaining mostly out of sight.

The Uper Green is the treetops, home to nesting hippogryphs and the long abandoned wood-shaped palaces of the ancient Aldmer, haunted ruins the Bosmer avoid.

Then you have the Grey, the deep ravines and caverns beneath the ground. Think, Blackreach, but populated with ancient Ayleid labs and haunted by the Satyr, the native beast-folk long since driven underground by the Bosmer.

coral mantle
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no i mean in times of war they're supposed to eat all dead, but how the Green benefits from that? would make more sense to fertilize the ground with some rot

quartz shuttle
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Which, it's self, could be detrimental to the Green.

coral mantle
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cannibalism is punishment? fun

quartz shuttle
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According to earlier sources, Bosmer would fast for days before a battle, just so they'd be hungry enough to actually eat their kills. And the entire family would be involved.

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Because, really... There is more meat on a human body than one person can reasonably eat

brave shoal
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also cannibalism is used as a gesture of respect for the dead in some african tribe (and elsewhere), maybe they have that to.

coral mantle
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i don't suppose anybody here read .. oh boy, now i need to translate it.. "a snail on a hill", probably,by soviet sci fi authors Strugatski brothers? the story takes place on some distant planet covered by Forest. When i read it, it was sooo easy to imagine Bosmers and weirdness of their land

brave shoal
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now i'm imagining soviet bosmer xD

quartz shuttle
brave shoal
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yeah remembered a tribe in oceania too but place so big and i dont remembered who exactly so i gone with the very vague

quartz shuttle
quartz shuttle
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The Prion disease that became endemic to their population is called Kuru, and causes muscle tremors in it's early stages.

coral mantle
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locals in that Forest were humans, likely from Earth, but messed up by nati e flora. They. Wouldnt. Shut up x) whole bloody pages of absolutely unnecessary small talk, it's confusing, so uncanny, funny, so bosmer-ey

brave shoal
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i mean, didnt science also show that cannibalism lead to so many specific disease one wouldnt get if they didnt practice it? but i guess that tribe basically was a live experiment (well, not experiment but live data to analyse)

quartz shuttle
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Yeah, it's a really complicated and super interesting topic (i am an anthropologist by training) but...

quartz shuttle
coral mantle
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and there's also some science station an that planet, where absurd takes different forms. Imperial fort in the Green \o/

brave shoal
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if its in valenwood, i want a quest to help a khaajit get down from one of the giant tree for obvious joke reference of cat stuck in tree

quartz shuttle
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But, as an Anthropologist, i've got a particular focus on the cultural identities of the peoples of a provinces. Oblivion and Skyrim were a huge disappointment in this regard.

brave shoal
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the nord werent viking enough?

quartz shuttle
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They were too Viking

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Vikings were a profession, not a civilisation

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It's like designing your entire provicne around Accountants

brave shoal
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oh i know, just using the simpler word because i'm basically half awake and brain not working right atm lol

quartz shuttle
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😛

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If they took more inspiration from the Danes, and less from Viking Tropes, i think it would have been much better

brave shoal
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i mean, the nord are kinda ''xenophobic'' in the cultural sense, keeping the old ways and all that, probably why they remain in their weird nordic ways rather than turn into~~ roman~~ imperial culture?

quartz shuttle
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Yeah, they just andled it in a very shallow and tacky way

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Like, they don't even KNOW their old ways, but they just keep dredging up Viking tropes.

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Ulfric's challenge and the Moot for instance. The Pact of Chieftans put an end to that whole fiasco more than THREE THOUSAND YEARS EARLIER

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If that isn't The Old Ways, i don't know what is

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But instead, they went all "Vikings fight challenges" nonsense

brave shoal
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well, ulfric want a return of the old way, that way he doing it? and since most nord respect that even if law changed, it see it as a good way to go forward?

quartz shuttle
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But the Old Ways they're focused on are from a childs book on Vikings, not actually established bits of Nord lore.

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And that's my problem with the approach in Skyrim.

coral mantle
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sooo what do they lack, exactly? theres tradition of Skald songs, some native holiday, marriage traditions, clan structure of the society

brave shoal
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not everyone is versed into ancient germanic/scandinavian society. for the laymen, scandinavia was a barren wasteland/germany clone then viking! then boring medieval+following era

coral mantle
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i dont even know how different were say swedes from danes. or are

quartz shuttle
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Marriage customs? Wear this necklace, and marry the first person who asks.

brave shoal
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usually when i play games/read ancient history, scandinavia basically is just german but farther north/with a knack for boats if they even included

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or from my medieval total war 2 days, the danish are my nemesis

quartz shuttle
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Even the Skalds are pretty poorly developed, they just wander and play in bars.

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Now, we are talking an improvement over Oblivion, sure... But that's a bar you'd struggle to trip over.

brave shoal
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play the teutonic mod as novgorod, intro show large mail armored viking/danish warrior saying they want more land. pff i think, how bad that small country can be. near endgame the danish wiped out the holy roman empire and the teutonic order and i'm stuck between the viking horde and the mongol invasion

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wasnt a fun time for my merchant empire to say the least

quartz shuttle
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Now, had the Skalds been the main driving force in Nord comprehension of their own history, and been piecing together their past traditions out of fragmentary knowledge thus explaining the historical disconnect, that could have helped.

coral mantle
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Black Briar clan holds power in tbe region, Jarl is their puppet. Two clans of Whiterun show have tbeir little conflict. I mean, they dont just coexist happily, whole society is divided

quartz shuttle
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If Winterhold was impoverished and not rebuilt because they refused to turn their back on the College and the Clever Men while the rest of Skyrim distrusted Magic, that would have helped.

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If the Clans were all automatically Thanes and important members of their local Courts, that would have helped

coral mantle
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2:30 am, i'd better get the heck away x)

quartz shuttle
brave shoal
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problem is a hold is like 20 npc, having half of them be thanes would be weird

quartz shuttle
uncut hatch
brave shoal
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or maybe it for a dlc in eso?

pastel sorrel
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BGS and ZOS are two separate teams, the higher-ups just work together to make sure everyone's on the same page

brave shoal
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i dont understand/follow at all who make what, for me, elder scroll is a bethesda thing so i always default that its them in some way influencing it

pastel sorrel
brave shoal
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half of those company are totally unknown to me^^'

pastel sorrel
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Bethesda the publisher overlaps slightly with Bethesda the devs, but they're still technically two different groups and they're all owned by ZeniMax (who also overlaps slightly with BGS due to its origins but)

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BGS are the de facto "main" dudes for TES if by pedigree, but they're not the only TES devs nowadays by any stretch.

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TES is technically a ZeniMax thing legally, BGS are just the top dog handling it.

coral mantle
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they're all right, managed to drag eso from the bottom

uncut hatch
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They're anything but Alright. A corporation that takes over other studios through hostile manners. The creator was literally a lawyer. And they overall only care for money and nothing else. Plus eso sucks.

coral mantle
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ah, you meant zenimax media

uncut hatch
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Zenimax is Also responsible for 76's rushed launch and other scandals.

coral mantle
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that was likely Bethesda The Publisher

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but then, rhey're one of a few triple a companies that supported VR, with titles like skyrim, doom, fallout 4

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doesnt sound like money grab to me

uncut hatch
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Porting over games not built for vr and then, from what i recall, not being good vr ports is literally asking for money.

coral mantle
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why are you hostile to ESO Benjamin Starscape? it has house building, customizable followers plus romance over horizon, lots of opportunities for solo rp and with groups-guilds. not to mention its TES, with tons of new books/deep lore, areas to explore..

hardy quarry
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Just because something has new content doesn't mean the new content is always that good....

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I think it's a waste to discount everything in ESO but it's definitely a different vision that doesn't have much to do with being a living world

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If anything ESO feels like a cinematic universe or something

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And there's lore in it which directly breaks continuity of the main BGS games

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It's not hard to see why people who got into the series because of Bethesda wouldn't be terribly fond of it

uncut hatch
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The elder scrolls isn't built for online. Eso itself sucks as an elder scrolls game gameplay wise. It isn't anything like what we play. At least fallout 76 plays like a fallout game. A majority of the quests i've done aren't great, the fact guards are immortal is annoying, stealth is half-a%%ed, they're literally just redoing oblivion's plot, etc.

I'm not against retcons in the elder scrolls with it being 1) fantasy and 2) realistic, but eso just does it to do it and doesn't even justify it.

The only thing i'll give eso credit for is showing off cultures and subtype races (like khajiits).

hardy quarry
coral mantle
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wait, what exactly breaks BGS lore? cant think of anything

uncut hatch
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I have played it.

hardy quarry
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And a lot more. Take your pick.

coral mantle
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lichdom was done superbly if youre referring to Vestarie *- * and her quest

hardy quarry
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I'm referring to the lich you have to jump into a phylactery to beat

uncut hatch
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Also, everything about eso is monetized. If dlcs were free i'd be fine with cosmetics and such costing money or vice versa. But nope. All has got to be paid.

coral mantle
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oh crap, boss tells me to start working, ill chrck in later and read you people

hardy quarry
uncut hatch
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Dlcs for 76 are free. Dlcs for the heavily monetized gta v online are free. Dlcs can very much be free.

hardy quarry
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How large are those usually?

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The chapter expansions are really massive

uncut hatch
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76's are pretty big. And gta online usually adds in New heists and cars and clothes, etc. Their two most recent ones opened up a whole new casino and new landmass.

hardy quarry
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Tbh I don't think it's actually a crazy thing to ask for people to pay for content you've spent more dev hours designing. Just depends on if the fans are willing to buy it

uncut hatch
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I'd be willing to pay for it if dlc weren't so exorbitant and everything didn't cost money. I have no issue paying money for dlc, but i have an issue when every single thing is monetized.

hardy quarry
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I was not aware the new stuff in FO76 was free. I knew that the initial expansion was but I thought that was somewhat of a plea for mercy from the fans

uncut hatch
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I also probably wouldn't mind paying if eso was actually good.

hardy quarry
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I'm not really a big ESO fan so I can't comment on whether it's good or not

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I think some of its additions to the lore are good and some are heinous

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To me it's just a big mixed bag

uncut hatch
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Honestly i'm just glad eso takes place so early in the timeline almost none of it will matter in elder scrolls 6.

frosty sentinel
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that's true, yeah

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i agree

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do you have a twitter?

coral mantle
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ESO is 400 people studio, company cant feed them all with cosmetics alone

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and every DLC bring bunch of new lands and cultures to explore, f76 and GTAO dont do that

brave shoal
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i only barely started playing but my argonian is exploring dark elf land while my dunmer got lost somewhere in blackmarsh and its fun

coral mantle
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im not a fan of ZOS's annual armageddon,im not. Molag Bals plot was enough. really enjoying lesser quests though. Even dumb fetch quests have some degree of entertainment. Like say, that quest inValenwood when i was asked to pour some holy water into springs. Old momma Bosmer was complaining about her good for nothing son. i run down the river poured that water, met that son. And he just told his version of the story. Was sweet and lively, believable

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playing latest expansion with companion, im immersed in the world like hundreds of shiny jumping daedra summoning dueling players around didnt exist. Hallix and, we RP walk around, going into taverns when arriving in new towns. It can be kinda meditative after work

brave shoal
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coming from wow and my love for goblin, whatever that demon sorcerer can summon, it make my inner goblin annoyed at how ugly they are xD

coral mantle
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you can turn into goblin yourself in ESO \o/ and play like it. Do dungeon runs, pvp

brave shoal
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i learned about a dwemer pet from a morrowind dungeon, i'm trying to farm it once a day to get the 7 piece, got 3 thus far (and 1 that love to be duplicate), someday i'll have that sentry pet

coral mantle
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btw there's free subscription trial currently, i recommend just jumping to every DLC zone. Will get pets and costumes, or even Personalities

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assassins personality takes some questing though

brave shoal
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wait, there open dlc for f2p? would explain how my dunmer got into blackmarsh then. personally i am really into dwemer stuff, so if you can point me to pet,costume or anything with that theme. i'll bite

coral mantle
#

yup, for a couple more days every area except Blackwood is open. Hmm, cant remember where dwemer stuff drops, sowwy. try everything? can enter 4player dungeons solo, grab prizes and leave

brave shoal
#

only lvl 28 i think, so my option are limited to what dungeon table say i can do

coral mantle
#

ah, right

brave shoal
#

until when that special event last?

coral mantle
#

cant remember exactly, only know its couple more days. not worth rushing grinding to lvl 50, if thats what youre thinking <.<

brave shoal
#

i'm waiting for wow patch to drop which is in 2 week roughly, i have spare time to focus on another thing (though i didnt plan to rush to 50,) with level scaling,i can do quest zone probably,not dungeon though

keen briar
#

Ha, nice. A Warhammer 40k reference.

"Only in death does duty end."

Screenshot_20210620-085324_Blades.jpg Screenshot_20210620-090332_Blades.jpg
plain ibex
stark pewter
#

You should get on Twitter :) Sure, we're unlikely to see long-form obscure texts type stuff (though it does happen) but just plain interacting with devs as people is very much going on

hearty hornet
#

Hello Lady Nerevar :)

proper ice
#

Because that man did some impressive stuff

stark pewter
#

Hey Merari, nice to see another old face :)

hearty hornet
#

:D

modest helm
pastel sorrel
#

@modest helm @hardy quarry Bear in mind, ESO for its scale doesn't really contradict much more than any of the mainline games have

#

And over time it's actually made an effort to consolidate the lore from across the series, reintroducing and fleshing out stuff that the mainline games had seemingly forgotten and fixing some plot holes here and there the mainline games had created.

robust trout
#

it's also worth noting that ESO takes place before any of the main games

#

and we all know that history gets warped over time, so in a way everything is correct and it's just the unreliability of our narrators that's messing us up

pastel sorrel
#

That's also present, most of the Interregnum-era lore is long lost by the end of it, and just because something is claimed it doesn't mean it's correct to begin with.

#

You've got lore that says one thing and another that says another thing, they're both valid as lore, it's just not always knowable which one is correct (if either of them even are)

#

Also possible both are correct to some extent.

robust trout
#

a lot of our in-game lore is from in-universe books, scrolls, or persons, and anyone who's looked at history books can attest that all of those can be accidentally or purposely mis-copied

#

especially oral traditions - imagine a game of telephone played over centuries 😆

pastel sorrel
robust trout
#

actually, we see a good bit of that in both Morrowind and Skyrim. In Morrowind the Tribunal is purposely editing history to make themselves look better, and in Skyrim you can find all sorts of things that contradict how you might have done Morrowind

pastel sorrel
#

It goes back to TESA: Redguard in fact, with the PGE1

#

That's where they decided "yeah, we're doing this in-universe with all the realistic errors and biases that comes with it".

hardy quarry
pastel sorrel
#

@hardy quarry You haven't been presented with good information, then.

hardy quarry
#

What if I had been presented with adequate information but still disagreed?

pastel sorrel
#

I don't understand the question

uncut hatch
pastel sorrel
#

The only known survivors are the ones that survived the final retreat, Uriel V and any of his retinue are MIA.

frosty sentinel
#

VaultSweatW are you saying there was no in-universe faulty narration before pge1

#

because that's not really true

short hill
#

Ted Peterson has mentioned how that's been part of the series since TES2, the 2 books on the War of Betony being a notable example

west palm
#

After diving into LoK lore, I have the feeling it influenced Morrowind

quartz shuttle
weak solstice
#

sic mundus creatus est

keen briar
#

Expecto patronum

west palm
#

Pacta sunt servanda.

quartz shuttle
#

I don't actually think Var victis is proper Latin, but it's something Kain says

dusky scaffold
#

vaevictis?

df01b548-9738-4c84-beb6-9a375f41d496.png
keen briar
west palm
#

That said, in the original LoK, Simon Temple used a script saying "Vae victus", which isnt all that correct.

uncut hatch
#

Then again, I would in no way consider myself an expert in Magic

dusky scaffold
#

(although I didn't really look and picked up the image of Masters Edition III, a digital only reprint-set)

uncut hatch
#

I see

#

I've only been into Magic for about 3 years, so I'm not very knowledgeable about any of the earlier sets

weak solstice
brave shoal
#

earlier magic card where from worst thing ever to omg its so op! then it stabilized and (i'm out of the loop) but today its back to thing being op ^^

west palm
#

Im into magic insofar the Leonin are concerned.

coral mantle
#

call me paranoid, but it's 1-2-3 thousand years old wizards and godlings that halt all technological progress. they don't need little human kings to challenge their power. if hand cannon was invented, it's them who made inventor disappear. want to know what happened to the dwemer? yep, you've got it

dusky scaffold
#

I heavily doubt it
Especially about the dwemer

coral mantle
#

i added the dwemer part to make it sound more paranoid and jokingly, but i'll stick to the idea. I mean, it's better than 'there is no need for laser rifles in Tamriel'. Of course there is market for that

#

a clique of power-hungry thousand years old wizards ruling all of Tamriel, yes yes yes. Ooh, psijics? psijic brutes kidnapping inventors and tinkerers, now that would be fun

#

my main point is, would you really want the world change so drastically if you're thousand years old and simply ~can't~ adapt anymore? you're stuck in the past. And if you're power hungry surely you wouldn't let those petty mortals push you on the side

#

solution - keep the world under your standarts

ocean brook
#

this is a world where just about anyone can throw a small firebolt if they try. where's the market for what amounts to another flavor of "magic" staff?

fierce sable
#

Speaking of controlling the world, this might be the time to mention the one thing that bugs me more than anything else about all the TES games since Morrowind: the Prisoner can manage to take over leadership of not just one but every major organization in a region... and no one ever says anything about it. If one person, in the span of a year, gained control over the military, scientific, and justice systems in your country, even if leaving the other political powers in place, do you think you might notice that? Maybe even say a word or two about that remarkable situation?

#

This consolidation of power into the hands of a single person never comes to anything in the TES games. What bothers me is that I think this is a badly missed opportunity for both interesting storytelling and high-end gameplay. Beyond random guard barks about your lofty status, I'd love to see the political powers in these games recognize when you've gained control over mages and fighters and assassins groups. That's when they'd reveal the plans they'd made to undermine you, opening up the ongoing end-game that gives you something to do with these groups whose leadership you've taken over. If I were a modder....

coral mantle
#

taking over organizations is just gameplay, no in-game book or npc mentions some jack-of-all-trades hero from the past games (not that im aware of anyway)

#

and no, casting fireballs takes talent and study. peasants rely on their axes more than fancy magic 👆

#

oh, oh, about the mages guild and similar open for all magic organisations. they're actually useful for that 'clique' of mine. They help discover new spells and push ideas, something the 'clique' can easily learn and use, unlike technology

ocean brook
#

peasants rely on what's cheaply and easily available. judging by the way guards in skyrim ask random passers-by to enchant their weapons, I'd say it's reasonable to assume that "fancy magic" is within reach of the less educated

#

hell, in oblivion, you have a fisherman who had a magic ring, and a farmer who had a magic sword

coral mantle
#

quote i really like and probably overuse:
"One of Todd Howard's favourite sayings is, if all magic in Tamriel suddenly turned off, nobody would really notice <...>
that's Rich Lambert, ESO's creative director who worked on Oblivion previously

#

and yes, i cut the Somemrset part because it doesn't illustrate what i'm saying

ocean brook
#

. . . that quote makes little sense; magic is what makes the world of Tamriel work

#

sunlight is literally magic pouring in frmo the Aetherius

#

no magic, no sunlight

split iris
#

It is an extremely nonsensical quote

coral mantle
#

well yeah, but small folk don't need to know that

ocean brook
#

they don't need to know that the sun went out?

coral mantle
#

in our medievals people got burned for scientific talks about the sun \o/ eppur si muove if i'm saying it right

#

what Rich and Todd likely meant was, if you go into some village in Tamriel, you won't see magical fires light the streets. You won't see enchanted armor on the local landlord guards

ocean brook
#

which is still nonsensical

coral mantle
#

but why? in Skyrim game only Jarl's wizards and those coots in the college were 'allowed' to study fancy magic, in the folks eyes. Like, can't remember the guy's name in Morthal, guy that cures vampirism? people treated him like some dangerous wacko and likely would burn his house if not for Jarl's protection

#

Fallion? nah, that's Fallout 4

ocean brook
#

and again, in that same hold, the guards will randomly ask you to enchant their sword for them

#

you, some passer by who could be anyone

split iris
#

Sure but this is 4th Era Skyrim. Which still had magical traditions, even if it was less. Summerset? Magic. Morrowind? Magic. Cyrodiil, especially Nibenay? Magic. Argonia? Magic. High Rock? Magic. Hammerfell, in the early eras? Magic. Valenwood? Magic. Elsweyr? Magic.

ocean brook
#

or they'll mention their respect for the school of restoration

coral mantle
#

and they also comment on Azura's star, which i don't personally believe they should know about

ocean brook
#

why not? it's famous

coral mantle
#

okay, so, back in 2nd era they've established the mages guild in Sommerset. Before that psijics kept these studies to themselves

#

it's sommerset, the land of the altmer, nation most skilled in magical arts, right? it's in their blood

#

so the question, how could some secretive organization keep magical studies from the public before Mages guild? if magic was so common

#

my only conclusion is, magic wasn't common at all, even for the altmer \o/ not to mention lesser races

#

ah! quote from biography of Vanus Galerion incoming

ocean brook
#

you're presupposing the existance of some secretive organization

#

that's not good logic

plain ibex
split iris
#

plzno

coral mantle
uncut hatch
ocean brook
#

so your argument is that the Psjjcs have been trying to control Tamriel, then?

plain ibex
#

Instant apocalyptic scenario, as a lot of tech suddenly doesn't work anymore, the sun goes out, weapons lose their enchantments, chaos ensues.

uncut hatch
#

imagine being archmage but your magic dont work anymore

#

i would be so upset

coral mantle
#

no Loranna, controlling Tamriel is different atter x) trying to prove that RIch Lambert-Todd Howard's quote now

#

During the early bloody years of the Second Era, Vanus Galerion was born under the name Trechtus, a serf on the estate of a minor nobleman, Lord Gyrnasse of Sollicich-on-Ker. Trechtus' father and mother were common laborers, but his father had secretly, against the law of Lord Gyrnasse, taught himself and then Trechtus to read. Lord Gyrnasse had been advised that literate serfs were an abomination of nature and dangerous to themselves and their lords, and had closed all bookstalls within Sollicich-on-Ker. All booksellers, poets, and teachers were forbidden, except within Gyrnasse's keep. Nevertheless, a small scale smuggling operation kept a number of books and scrolls in circulation right under Gyrnasse's shadow.

plain ibex
#

...What would happen to things like Atronachs, vampires, Wispmothers and other magical beings?

coral mantle
#

point A - landlords could afford to outlaw education in 2nd Era

uncut hatch
ocean brook
#

counterpoint A - unreliable narrator. do we have other sources collaberating this fact?

coral mantle
#

Three months later, Trechtus ran away from Lord Gyrnasse's estate. He made it as far as Alinor, half-way across Summerset Isle. A band of troubadours found him nearly dead, curled up in a ditch by the side of the road. They nursed him to health and employed him as an errand boy in return for food and shelter. One of the troubadours, a soothsayer named Heliand, began testing Trechtus' mind and found the boy, though shy, to be preternaturally intelligent and sophisticated given his circumstances. Heliand recognized in the boy a commonality, for Heliand had been trained on the Isle of Artaeum as a mystic.

uncut hatch
#

are daedra made out of magic then? and if so are aedra also made out of magic? if aedra are magic then getting rid of them will get rid of every living creature

#

(im just thinking on my own over here don't mind me)

coral mantle
#

When the troupe was performing in the village of Potansa on the far eastern end of Summerset, Heliand took Trechtus, then a boy of eleven, to the Isle of Artaeum. The Magister of the Isle, Iachesis, recognized potential in Trechtus and took him on as pupil, giving him the name of Vanus Galerion. Vanus trained his mind on the Isle of Artaeum, as well as his body.

#

okay, that was a Daggerfall era book, but that actually means even then Tamriel was considered mundane and grounded \o/

coral mantle
ocean brook
#

um

plain ibex
ocean brook
#

Troubadour, trained as a mystic

uncut hatch
ocean brook
#

wandering minstrel, trained as a mystic

uncut hatch
#

a bit of a "what if?" scenario

#

fun to randomly think about things then make a dumb story about it

coral mantle
#

one troubadour, a smart and witted one, from the whole group of altmer

ocean brook
#

point is, he's basically a peasant too

plain ibex
ocean brook
#

and yet he went to get magic training

#

that he could, argues that magic is more, not less, common

#

he then sends the protagonist, another peasant, off to receirve the same training

coral mantle
#

The practice of magic has generally been frowned upon dating back to the First Era,[22] and outsiders are not tolerated in many parts of Hammerfell.[2][12][23] Many believe that no "true" Redguard would stoop to using magic, considering it a weakness.[24] Certain schools that teach the Way of the Sword forbid students to use magic and enchanted weapons.[25] By the Third Era, spellcasters were shunned in Hammerfell, believing them to be wicked individuals who steal souls and tamper with minds.[26] Necromancy has always been abhorred in Redguard culture, due to their reverence of the dead. Although being suspicious of magic is regarded as a hallmark of Redguard culture, it was not always so pronounced. In ancient times, Yokudan war-wizards were part of their armies, albeit rare.[27] Sword-singers were said to have forged swords woven with magic and indeed the Shehai itself is believed to be a form of magic.[5]
that's from UESP, redguards and magic. links and references included on the source page..

#

*Arcane University
This place is unspeakably dirty and unkempt, no better than a slum. You will never find the students or wizards outside in the air, for they are squatting in their dark dungeons poring over profane texts and making crabbed scribbles on scrolls.

Within the Arch-Mage's Tower is hidden the Imperial Orrery, which the mages use to study the sky. Such fools! Why do they not look on the glory of Creation itself, and give praise to the Nine as they ought, rather than squat and peer at such a ridiculous and expensive machine?

The Mages are said to have a great library of precious books, but they jealously hoard them for themselves. This is no loss for the righteous, for these books are surely full of wicked nonsense.*
that's an imperial point of view. Alessia Otus, my favorite authoress <3 she's popular one can say, since there's not many guides around

ocean brook
#

Many believe that no "true" Redguard would stoop to magic - and then, in Skyrim, a Redguard who is professing to be fighting for his people, uses a paralysis spell on a traitor

#

for that matter, many believe that no "true" Redguard would attack an unarmed opponent, but Cyrus in his Sword Meeting with Vivec proved that Redguards are willing to find exdception for their own rules when it suits them

coral mantle
#

Cyrus was no ordinary guy

ocean brook
#

plus, there's the whole earth magic and sword magic that the Redguards have going for them

#

Cyrus's whole sthick was that he was the ordinary guy

plain ibex
#

To be fair the Orrery kinda sucked as a DLC.

ocean brook
#

just this ordinary guy in Tamriel, making a living best he could

coral mantle
#

"Khajiit are not known as mages, so J'zargo has much to prove." - J'Zargo

ocean brook
#

. . . you're trusting the word of a Khaijit now, one whose sense of competition is so jacked, he says you're losing so badly that you don't even know it for thinking that it isn't a competition in the first place

#

he'd have much to prove even if there were magic-using kittens romping through the deserts back home

coral mantle
#

i keep bringing quotes, is all \o/ looking for status of magic using in bosmer society now

ocean brook
#

Bosmer - the guys with a known penchant for shapeshifting

#

one way or another, magic is deeply ingrained in all of Tamriel

coral mantle
#

treetane, she's like a mayor

#

ah, and she hired altmer mages to deal with some problems

ocean brook
#

and the community she runs?

coral mantle
#

some village, if memory serves. didn't look up much on that page

ocean brook
#

so, some village is poor on magic-knowing people

#

that's not all that strange, even in a world with lots of magic; there's always going to be some places where people haven't developed magic skills

coral mantle
#

now im curious if can dig up any materials debunking commonness of magic in Morrowind. hmm, where do i even start..

#

how do you imagine say, an ordinary house in say, Daggerfall? what kind of stuff people use there. How do they keep fire burning, how they light the rooms, these things

ocean brook
#

in the cities, or ion the hamlets?

plain ibex
coral mantle
#

cities, yeah

ocean brook
#

point at fireplace, cast Power Word: Bic

coral mantle
#

do they keep a lot of enchanted items?

ocean brook
#

if they're lazy, they'll use matches

#

well, I could go in game, break into a few homes, and dig through the piles of loot I find . . .

plain ibex
ocean brook
#

pfft

coral mantle
#

i mean, for me Tamriel is mundane, magic and gods and superheroes, an ordinary man don't think about this stuff in his daily life. He's got guar to feed. And that stuff above^, it proves it

ocean brook
#

and to me, Tamriel's a place where town guards are complaining that their weapons lack enough enchantments to do their jobs properly

#

farmers have magic rings that hey use to make their job easier

#

er, fishermen, sorry; farmers just have magic weapons for scaring away the goblins

#

and anyone can carry around a scroll or a potion for a tight spot

coral mantle
#

good Aelwin had that ring from his adventuring days ways back when. I remmeber his name because i named one of my chars after him

ocean brook
#

so he's an adventurer turned fisherman

#

he's still an ordinary guy

#

this implies that ordinary people go adventuring, even

#

and get minor enchanted stuif which they use for a more "proper" career

coral mantle
#

yeah, but this ring wans't something cheap he bought on another visit to Imperial City's market. And i doubt he'll ever get another such ring. Ah, but that's speculation

ocean brook
#

. . . that silly little thing?

coral mantle
#

and speaking of prices, in Oblivion the game you can buy a house for that ring's price. Damn Aelwin, you should have just sold it

ocean brook
#

we really don't want to taslk about Tamriel's economy

#

trust me, we don't

#

the only reason that particualr ring costs that much is because of the water breathing effect - which reminds me of a book that trains alteration magic where some guy learns water breathing just to go deep diving and explore a wrecked ship for treasure

#

said book making magic look rather common, considering that the guy was just a professional diver looking to up his game

#

or, you know, the Levitation Act itself: why have such a law if people who can float about, causing arial collisions, are rare?

#

Tamriel is schitrophrenic

coral mantle
#

levitation act is gameplay went lore - had to explain the abscence of mechanic somehow x)

ocean brook
#

I refer to my last statement about Tamriel being all over the place

#

and they really didn't have to explain the absence in that way; magic spells that existed before haver disappeared and just been mentioned as "lost", like Passwall

coral mantle
#

hmm, 'breathing water' book gives me an idea.. check other books about magic \o/ some other day though

ocean brook
#

I'll bet you a bowl of kwama cuttle soup, the inferrences will be mixed

#

but when you get right down to it?

#

there are multiple ways one can get a magical education in Tamriel, and the sources we have make it seem like social status, or even wealth, fail to serve as obstacles

#

. . .bloeh, that's lousy as a sentence

#

ahem - there are multiple ways to get magical training in Tamriel, with neither wealth nor social standing serving as obstacles based on what sources we have

west ivy
quartz shuttle
west ivy
#

Oh, cool, they actually added lore to the two throwaway lines in TES4 which originally mentioned it? Is this from the books or TES5?

quartz shuttle
#

It's directly mentioned in the novels. By the time of the Umbriel Incident, Levitation Magic had been almost entirely wiped out, with only the College of Whispers (or maybe it was the Synod) maintaining the secret of the spells.

plain ibex
frosty sentinel
#

i'd assume wealth and social standing would serve as an obstacle in getting actual official training

#

not an impossible obstacle, but an obstacle nontheless

west ivy
ocean brook
#

and no; it's mentioned directly in Oblivion

coral mantle
#

hmm, i wonder. What if magic in Tamriel is as common as ..programming.. in our world? it requires hard work to learn it, only a few can really master it, it can be fruitful, if you find a proper use for it. trying to find analogy, i guess

ocean brook
#

how about guns?

#

only you actually need the license to have and use one 🙂

coral mantle
#

and Loranna, it wasnt just a farmer boy with wits of a guar x) it was Vanus fetching tusking Galerion, mastermind of arcane arts x)

plain ibex
#

Staves are like guns in my book. Shame you can't quickdraw with them...

ocean brook
#

no, the farmer I mentioned was a guy who had Chillrend, magic sword of fun

#

I'm aware that Galerion was smart

#

he was still, at the time of his education, a peasant boy with no income

quartz shuttle
ocean brook
#

iot's worth noting, the Synod's goals are different from the old Mage Guild's

split iris
#

The Synod is basically the magic police while Whispers is more like how the Necromancers were in Daggerfall: All Magic for All

modest yew
#

is going to pay a lot of attention to this channel! tugNotes

uncut hatch
#

i like playing around with the synods and college of whispers cause there's not really a whole lot about em yet. i can just make stuff up with em and it can work. unless theres more stuff about them in lord of souls

modest yew
#

Only thing I know about The Synods is that they replaced The Mages Guild

#

After the Oblivion Crisis

coral mantle
#

yeah, i think they're only casually mentioned by one npc. havent read lord of souls though. speaking of, is it pre-skyrim?

uncut hatch
#

theres a synod in the college of winterhold questline but hes kinda insane

west ivy
#

But if the Synod is inventing spells of levitation, then they're pretty clearly in contravention of any presumed act that legislates against levitatoin

ocean brook
#

by now, that law is over 200 years old

#

given the polital turmoil that likely befell in those centuries, said law might well have been forgotten, stricken from the records, or Dragon Breaked out of existance

west ivy
#

Pfffft

#

You can't simultaneously argue that it is supported by its presence in the books and supported by its absence in the books

coral mantle
#

'hypothetical treatury' is the only book i can remember where levitation was used. and it's a play, meaning, it serves to entertain

ocean brook
#

yes I can

coral mantle
#

what iiiif.. levitation was only spread in morrowind, thanks to mushroom wizards?

brave shoal
#

won't surprise me that the body that enforce a ban on flying magic wont develop said magic itself, could be helpful if someone else do and you need it to stop them

ocean brook
#

you're forgetting the timey wimey element

west ivy
ocean brook
#

during the days leading up to the Oblivion crisis, a law was passed that banned levitation, suggesting that, in that period, levitation was common enough to become a public concern in the Imperioal City

brave shoal
#

synod sound more official than a mere guild. maybe it just another imperial bureau of something

west ivy
#

a law was passed that banned levitation
Source?

ocean brook
#

in the days of Skyrim's mage guild plot, well, who knows whether the law, or levitation magic in general, is even remembered

coral mantle
#

or, it was banned before masses learned to fly

quartz shuttle
west ivy
#

"He's getting older, but he can still teach a bit about Alteration. He's been teaching it since before the Levitation Act of 421."
"He still teaches, though he lost his passion for it after the Levitation Act was passed. Can't say I blame him."
And no, these are not sources for levitation being banned

ocean brook
#

Oblivion, the game - npcs mention it

brave shoal
#

probably the empire not wanting to deal with the hassle of flying making their entire military strategy pointless overnight

quartz shuttle
#

It was the offically sanctiojed magical regulatory body for the entire Empire

west ivy
ocean brook
#

. . . okay, so a law is passed that does what then, pray tell

brave shoal
#

well, there a law about levitation and nobody ever do or think about flying, seem to conjuncture toward the act being a ban

west ivy
west ivy
#

In TES5, (200+ years after this act!), Telvanni towers still use levitation

ocean brook
#

okay, where are you geting that year?

west ivy
#

In ESO (800+ years before this act) nobody is levitating

brave shoal
#

its somewhat medieval in many way, so new can travel slowly, and hiding stuff from authority seem pretty easy especially for mages

#

and i dont think telvanni ever listen to anybody but themselve

ocean brook
#

because this argument is getting ridiculous

west ivy
ocean brook
#

the yhear said Act was passeed

west ivy
quartz crane
ocean brook
#

. . . two npcs whose dialogue never mentioned when?

uncut hatch
#

uh oh

west ivy
#

"He's getting older, but he can still teach a bit about Alteration. He's been teaching it since before the Levitation Act of 421."

coral mantle
#

mages do fly in ESO btw, and they look like apprentices

ocean brook
#

okay, there we are; thanks for reminding me

uncut hatch
#

levitation in eso is a bit different

west ivy
ocean brook
#

and . . . none of what you're saying now disproves the point I was trying to make in the first place - that masgic was common

brave shoal
#

arent mage guild an independant organization from the government? they probably bend some rules sometime? or that could help explain why they got disbanded and the synod replaced them

coral mantle
#

this talk is too heated for a gameplay mechanics

west ivy
west ivy
ocean brook
#

. . .

uncut hatch
ocean brook
#

facepalms

west ivy
#

Having received none, but being told I was interpreting those two lines wrong, then I'm forced to conclude that there are no sources

ocean brook
#

so you jumped in and turned the debate onto a tangent?

brave shoal
#

i'm not well versed into es lore to contribute much so imma jump out

west ivy
#

I asked about a claim you made, 80 minutes after you made it and any "debate" had run its course

#

I'm done; I'm finished; I'm out

ocean brook
#

yeah, that's about how I'm feeling right now too, with a side order of "I shoulda seen this coming"

coral mantle
#

reading in tamriel is common - enter any house, from farmers to landlords, and you'll find books and notes, parchments and ink.
Cooking is common, you can see bandits frying skeevers out in the wilderness.
religion is common, you can see people go to temples, keep altars at their houses, refer and pray to gods.
maaaaagic? can you see levitating candles everywhere? can you see magical fires warming the hearth or perhaps its wood?

ocean brook
#

Sjsstenka, please drop it now; I'm done

coral mantle
#

sorry <.<

#

i should be sleeping by now myself, bloody midnight already

uncut hatch
#

remember when aedrons and daedrons were a thing

#

those were good times i was not a part of

ocean brook
#

. . . were a thing?

uncut hatch
#

are they still a thing?

ocean brook
#

I'm asking you

uncut hatch
#

well i know daedrons are in eso

#

they're things that chaotic creatia are made out of

#

i guess...

#

important knowledge for daedralolgist like myself

#

maybe i imagined the aedron part...

#

gonna dig a bit

coral mantle
#

you can theorize it exists \o/ chaotic creatia is all theory too, no?

quartz crane
uncut hatch
#

i thought daedrons and aedrons were mentioned in morrowind but i guess not

#

i know daedrons are mentioned in eso though

#

but yea, creatia has always been a thing it just didn't have a name back before eso. well springs, waters of oblivion, chaotic creatia, all the same thing

#

(i could be completely wrong here but thats fine)

coral mantle
#

no, i mean guy who writes about chaotic creatia in ESO, he only thorizes about it? talks qbout soul shriven, and how nirn defends itself with anuic vestiges and stuff, about wayshrines.. we as players see it all working, but for that guy it's just theory

#

oh forget it, im sleeping. 6 hours left >.<

uncut hatch
#

oh sorry

west ivy
#

Such are the facts. What follows is speculation, born of conversations with the Sojourner during his infrequent and unpredictable visits. His theory is that the Soul Shriven's bodies are flawed because they have lost the focusing principle of their Anuic souls, so their vestiges are imperfect patterns. I concurred that this was likely, and then proposed the theoretical possibility of a Soul Shriven who, despite having lost his or her soul, possessed some other intrinsic Anuic aspect. This shall-we-say "paragon" Soul Shriven would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously.
The "paragon" idea is what he explicitly presents as theory, and as the Sojourner's at that

#

Furthermore, we have long known from the Daedra themselves that their bodies are formed from the very stuff of chaos, the "creatia" of Oblivion, a shapeless but energetic material that accretes around a vestige until it conforms to the morphotype's inherent pattern.

Back on Mundus I had naively envisioned this creatia as some sort of misty, amorphous material swirling in a void somewhere. After our arrival in Coldharbour, it was some time before I realized that its ubiquitous pools of blue slime, the substance we've come to call "Azure Plasm," was in fact the form that creatia takes upon this plane. By extension, I reasoned that chaotic creatia takes a different but planar-appropriate form in every realm of Oblivion—and this theory was later confirmed for me by the rogue Xivilai known as the Sojourner, who has had direct experience of numerous planes of existence.
By contrast, he presents chaotic creatia as being something well-known, almost common knowledge

west ivy
uncut hatch
#

im kinda being a bit snarky today so im sorry about that

#

im in a good mood

west ivy
#

Oh whoops, I replied to the wrong message

#

but yea, creatia has always been a thing it just didn't have a name back before eso. well springs, waters of oblivion, chaotic creatia, all the same thing
I meant to respond to this one, saying the summary was accurate. Apologies for that, I didn't realise I'd replied to the other message until your response just then

uncut hatch
#

ah, ok

weak solstice
uncut hatch
#

They’re real pogscamp

#

So daedrons are like magnets…

#

Magnetic creation water particles

uncut hatch
# west ivy But people *do* fly. In TES3, in 3E427 (six years after this act!), Mages Guild ...

this is late but whatever. morrowind was taken in by the empire through peaceful treaty. this means they don't abide by all laws passed, as vvardenfell still very much has slavery. due to other provinces enveloped by the empire mostly through war and aggression, they must abide by all laws. morrowind was through peace and treaty, therefore they had their own deal in the bargain.

west ivy
#

As I said, I'm out. I'm not particularly inclined to jockey for the 'last word' so this isn't an argument, but ultimately while much has been presented in the way of conjecture for it being possible that the Act bans levitation nothing has convinced me that there's evidence for anything beyond an act pertaining to it. It is what it is

ocean brook
#

and I only brought up the Act as a way to support the argument that Magic Is Fairly Common, by saying that if random levitating people weren't a big ernough issue in the waning days of the 3rd era, the Empire wouldn't have passed a ban

or, as Fullerton argued, "an act concerning levitation"

#

which, to be fair, he has a point on, now that I'm not busy trying to argue a different point

west palm
plain ibex
# west palm Big brain time: What if Tamriel, but XCOM https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...

||Reminds me of a fallout mod I was planning where I was going to make an addon for the Fallout 3 anthro races to add more presets and maybe races but I was planning on adding a hidden fire damage vulnerability to each of the races (25%) that isn't mentioned anywhere in the mod page.
Why? I find it funny and it makes sense, wearing an old shaggy carpet would make you highly flammable.||

west palm
plain ibex
# west palm God, I'd give various bodyparts for that.

Once I get my computer working again I'll try to continue it though without NifSkope or any modelling knowlege I'll have to focus on retexturing via Photoshop and moving face bones within the CharGen thing in the GECK.

uncut hatch
# west palm Big brain time: What if Tamriel, but XCOM https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...

This make me think I always wanted to see a spin-off of the Elder Scrolls as a T-RPG, I think it would be great both for adding interesting new gameplay to the franchise, but also developing new kind of stories like one focused on multiple main characters that would be your team. Or stories about wars seems fitting for this kind of gameplay, or a game centered around a guild which could as well justify the T-RPG style.

west palm
#

Oh man, this. An indepth tactical engine would also help flesh out the unique properties of each race.

west palm
uncut hatch
west palm
#

XCOM2 😛

hardy quarry
west palm
hardy quarry
solid nymph
#

Looks good

weak solstice
quartz shuttle
#

I swear to Grob Gob Glob Grod that if there is a joke about Pyramid building aliens, or ancient concrete in TES6, i will burn this entire planet to the ground!

uncut hatch
#

?

quartz shuttle
#

Just, random people in an Archaeology group im in...

#

Driving up my blood pressure

uncut hatch
quartz shuttle
#

Allofit

#

Seriously though, Yokudan stuff being a mix of Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Age of Sail?

ocean brook
#

I thought Yokuda was more Japanese, hence the whole Shehai thing

coral mantle
#

in ESO their decendants are pure arabs.. aesthetically, at least. and knowing how conservative damn crowns are, i doubt they'd change as much from yokuda times

#

and tombs and mausoleums from migration time, they're massive, as if built for pharaons

ocean brook
#

welp, I'm confused now

split iris
#

I mean, no TES Culture holds inspiration from one culture. The Redguards/Yoku are very Japanese, bit of Ottoman, bit of Moors, bit of West African, bit of Caribbean, etc.

ocean brook
#

I feel bad for the nords now

coral mantle
#

whats japanese about yokes? i dont get it. thing for swordsmanship or theres something else?

ocean brook
#

the shehai is the kensai, practically word for word

#

which implies a deep-seated set of cultural values

coral mantle
#

hm, interesting. googling now

uncut hatch
#

Redguards were lucky with the inspirations if you look at the other human races

coral mantle
#

i've read some historical book about feudal japan, about spies we know as ninjas, their monasteries and landlords and stuff, and just cant see anything Redguard about them. er, i mean japanese in redguards. there wasnt even much craziness about swords, actually

weak solstice
coral mantle
#

ill be damned * - * never seen thst before. yeah, there is some resemblance

ocean brook
#

the sword meetng with vivec is very japanese, if you're intentionally trying to push feng shui into the levels of island-shattering geomancy and don't mind sowrd techniques that split atoms 🙂

#

Cyrus in that story even displays a degree of shonen protagonist syndrome, wanting to best Vivec "because"

coral mantle
#

guess i need to read that x) after work thouh

uncut hatch
uncut hatch
# uncut hatch Wdym?

Redguards take more inspiration from cultures around the world than Bretons, nords and imperials do. Ive been saying a lot of things I don’t really mean lately but eh

#

Better to say random trash than just not say anything at all. Maybe 🤔

quartz shuttle
# uncut hatch Redguards take more inspiration from cultures around the world than Bretons, nor...

Yeah, like the Dunmer, the Redguard draw from a wider range of influences than we see with the other human cultures.

Whereas Dunmer is a mix if Japanese, Indian, Mongolian, Mesopotamian, and a whee bit of celtic or gauluc (depending on who yoh ask) the Redguard have never fallen prey to the overly simplictic mono-influencing of the other human cultures.

You've got Japanese, Egyptian, Modern Arab, Age of Sail Caribbean, Mediterranean, Ottoman, and even a bit of mesoamerican mixed in there

uncut hatch
#

yeah, exactly

quartz shuttle
#

And that's what makes for good fictional cultures, IMO. drawing from multiple inspirations and weaving them together

#

There is a reason Morrowind is most often cited as the best TES game. And its not because if its general gameplay. Its ecause it feels like an interesting world that you want to explore and learn about.

#

Oblivion and Skyrim are a dime a dozen. You don't see a ruined fort and think "Dude! What the hell is THAT!? I gotta check that out"

plain ibex
uncut hatch
#

i remember being interested in skyrim tombs. oblivion though was dread everytime you walk pasted a ruin cause you don't know if a crab person is in there or not. just like daggerfall

quartz shuttle
#

Lol. Yeah, and admitedly the impact does wear off. After your 3rd Daedric Ruin, you basically know what you're looking at. You become familiar with Dwemer keeps. Dunmeri Strongholds stop being strange and exotic.

#

But, that happens with all things. The goal should still be to evoke that sensation for as long as possible.

uncut hatch
#

i haven't actually played a lot of morrowind passed balmora but now you said daedric ruin im interested again

quartz shuttle
#

The game its self has not aged well. But the world is still one of the best ever made

uncut hatch
#

true that JiubCheers

quartz shuttle
#

If, hypothetically, i were given control of designing Hammerfell... i would make the Ancient Yokudans a mix if Colonial Era Age of Sail, Egyptian, Ottoman, and Mesoamerican.

The infiltration if Japanese influences would come from the Lefthanders, whose styles the Ansei stole along with Orichalum. By the time of the sinking of Yokuda, their culture would be largely divided between the Ottoman-Esque old Yoku, and the Japanese-Esque Ansei, both obviously still having the other influences as well.

ocean brook
#

Coilonial era age of sail? isn't that a bit ahead of the typical TES culture level?

quartz shuttle
#

Yes, but it was already played around with in Redguard, so the idea of Redguard swashbucklers is actually already established.

#

And while Cannon have been mentioned, they've never been shown, save for a single Legends card

ocean brook
#

is that why Redguard looked like Sea of Thieves . . .

quartz shuttle
#

A bit, yeah

#

I think that drawing the cultural line between the Crowns and Forebears by shifting their acceptance of Magic would allow for a lot of interesting options

#

For instance, Crown cities, fortifications and even soldiers could have early ottoman styles, with big, heavy walls, dotted with massive and ponderous brass cannons.

#

Forebears, on the other hand, allow for more integration with Tamriel's pro-magic cultures, and tend to be mkre open and less isolationist

#

The you've got the Alik'r, who.. well, just make them Fremen.

coral mantle
#

i like that tribe of outcasts ZOSes made up. they arent welcome in redguard cities, arent mentioned in polite societies. cant remember what they were called. they deal with necromancy, which is a crime.. but they are needed

dusky scaffold
#

the Ash'aba

uncut hatch
#

i like that tribe too but the way the redguards dont wanna fight the dead is hilarious to me. i get it, i wouldnt wanna fight em either. but no wonder camoran ursurper conquered hammerfell

dusky scaffold
#

they kill raised redguard ancestors, which, acording to redguard belief, is a sacrilege

coral mantle
#

i dont actually remember them in game.. only noticex them in the improved emperors guide

dusky scaffold
#

they're a big part in the Alik'r storyline...

coral mantle
#

and they dont burn their dead because of lack of wood? or something deeper

dusky scaffold
#

they don't burn their dead because of sacrilege

coral mantle
#

thats deep

#

pretty sure it was lack of wood first. imagine the wasteland of yokuda and national disregard of magic. no fuel, no magic to burn the dead, eventually you make it look like religious dogm, ha ha

#

maybe the rich burned theirs to show off

plain ibex
#

This is all stuff that would be much better to be able to find out ingame, would be great for a hunter of necromancers/undead that beheads the corpses they find to prevent them from being reanimated. Would that be considered sacrilege?

dusky scaffold
#

no disfiguring the dead

plain ibex
#

I see. Even those that aren't ancestors?

dusky scaffold
#

well, that'd only include non-redguards...

#

for non-redguards, killing the dead (again) is no problem, they rely on them to do that, even

plain ibex
dusky scaffold
#

but it's been some time since I last played the Alik'r...

quartz shuttle
#

Based on the zombies in Sentinel, all undead ara a -No-Go

hardy quarry
quartz shuttle
#

Fair. They're considerably shallower in their influences, but calling them mono-influenced is hyperbole, and an unjust one at that.

hardy quarry
#

Yeah tbh Bretons, Nords, and Imperials are great

#

Dunmer are greatly overplayed. They've pretty much become a button you hit to sell merch. Maybe even worse than Skyrim tbh

#

I've never been able to see them as much other than TES Drow with some Catholicism

ocean brook
#

the Dunmer feel a bit like That One Race The DM Really Likes

hardy quarry
#

Yeah that exactly

ocean brook
#

like, none of the other races even seem to give a hoot about CHIM or anything like that - just them

hardy quarry
#

They got good lore but they aren't god's gift to TES races lmao

quartz shuttle
#

Eh, the handling of the Bretons, Nkrds and Imperials has been lackluster, at best. There's still a lot of potential to them, but they're constantly wasted on familiar tropes

hardy quarry
#

Tropes are good though

quartz shuttle
hardy quarry
#

One of the direct influences of Skyrim was Conan. Another was something from Dune.

#

I think this comes more down to what aesthetic you prefer

quartz shuttle
#

Tropes are good, when handled well. Oblivion and Skyrim did not handle their tropes well

hardy quarry
#

Skyrim is a lot better than Oblivion

#

And I disagree. Skyrim's design has a lot of subtlety

ocean brook
#

I like the whole Conan vibe; to be honest, I like the Ashlander Dunmer too, but largely as a counterpoint to the Nords

quartz shuttle
#

Some fixes would have beem easier than others, of course a lot of Skyrim's Heroe's Journey problens would have been addressed if they had just removed Book of the Dragonborn

ocean brook
#

elaborate?

hardy quarry
#

The main quests aren't a strong point in any of these games except Arena and Daggerfall

#

Not as far as the relation of the questline to the hero goes anyways

quartz shuttle
# ocean brook elaborate?

Skyrim starts with you uncovering a rare power with culture-hero links, but you don't actually learn what the significance of that power, and your place in a prophecy, is until yoh get to Skyhvlaven Temple

#

Unless you crack open a copy of Book of the Dragonborn, which they LITERALLY PUT IN TUE FIRST DUNGEON, and ruin the entire plot

hardy quarry
#

Idk man, I read that book when I first went through 10 years ago and I still really enjoyed the experience

quartz shuttle
#

Keeping the meaning behind your powers, and what you are there to do, concealed until the plot reveal midway through the game would have created a better revilationary journey for the Hero. Instead, literally anyone whk can read already knows what you're there for.

#

Oh, i don't think the experience was bad, but the books presence did definitely steal a lot of its thunder.

#

It would be like having the Lost Prophecies sitting on the desk in the Census and Excise office in Seyda Neen

hardy quarry
#

Honestly dude, even if that book didn't exist I would have known the exact progression

#

You've indicated yourself that progression you suspected it to have

quartz shuttle
#

Well, Howard did also spoil it in all the promotional material.

hardy quarry
#

It's tropes like you said

quartz shuttle
#

But that's more Hollywood Trailer syndrome...

#

Like Doomsday. Why, WHY would you put Doomsday in the trailer!?

#

Anyway, yes, there is more depth to Skyrim than there was to Oblivion. And yes, Skyrim is a better game. But it still leans too heavily on those tropes

hardy quarry
#

The Heroes Journey?

quartz shuttle
#

Often to the point of them becoming cliches

hardy quarry
#

I'm not sure what you just described outside of the hero's journey

ocean brook
#

this is even assuming that the point of Skyrim is "to complete the Main Quest"

#

looked at this weay, the book in the first dungeon is giving you the chance to decide if you're wanting to bother with it or just go around the countryside, collecting butterflies 🙂

quartz shuttle
hardy quarry
#

The main hero influence for TES5 was Beowulf...

#

Beowulf didn't have a moment like that either. I don't think that killed many people's enjoyment

#

Well, Conan and Beowulf

quartz shuttle
#

Skyrim approaches the trope like a checklist. Need to inject doubt? Paarthirnax gets a line about whether or nkt its right to stop Alduin. Ding, check, move on.

hardy quarry
#

Arngeir would probably be a better example

#

And his is more of a profound question

#

But ultimately the story is set up to not take this seriously

#

It might give the main quest itself less depth but I don't think that's a bad thing in this case

#

I don't enjoy force moments of self-doubt

#

Or even better, when the heroes fall out with each other's group of friends due to a misunderstanding

#

Skyrim was sold as kill thing, drink booze

quartz shuttle
#

Agreed, but again, Skyrim treats that like a point on a checklist.

hardy quarry
#

It does have many elements of depth to it but the scope is different

quartz shuttle
#

Look at the Blades. Kill Parthy or you can't be one of us

#

Theres no deeper context or meaning to it, its just a checkmark on a halfhearted Heroes Journey

hardy quarry
#

Explain how that's on the hero's journey?

quartz shuttle
#

Because you spend more than half the main questline building the relationshios between the PC the Greybeards and the Blades. They they cut both off at whether or not you kill Paarthurnax, requiring that decision to be made for eother to continue assiting you.

#

So most of us just avoid the decision entirely

hardy quarry
#

No, "where is this in the hero's journey model" is what I'm sayinf

quartz shuttle
#

But in doing so, effectively remove both 'Friends' from the climax

#

Typically, its part of stage 8, which is the change in the struggle which tests the hero's convictions

ocean brook
#

so it's the "Obi Wan Dies" moment?

hardy quarry
#

Yeah you know, I think you're right and that this was a checklist

#

I just take issue with any amount of "Morrowind good, all other TES inferior" thinking

quartz shuttle
#

Oh, absolutely.

hardy quarry
#

Morrowind is overhyped. Good world with very bad gameplay

#

Morrowind tends to be more about ideological tribalism

quartz shuttle
#

Morrowind is excelent in terms kf its worldbuilding, but its story is just ok and its gameplay wasn't even great when it came out

hardy quarry
#

Daggerfall too. Just not a fan and can't see how it's constructive

plain ibex
hardy quarry
#

Games are about the game first, and everything else comes second

#

But even when it comes to lore, this framing actively makes lorespace worse

#

The Bretons just got out of a dark age where people claimed for the last two decadss that they had no lore

#

Which was incredibly false. They had a lot of lore and it was interesting

#

But Bethesda wasn't presenting it much and fans in some cases didn't know about it

#

But any time anyone that did know about it tried to change the perception, they'd be actively shut down

#

And there's already complaints from the same crowd now that the wikis are using source information which rebukes them

#

So anytime I see this kind of rhetoric it really hits a nerve

#

What it tells a viewer is that they need not bother with the other stuff

#

Just go with Morrowind

#

Personally I don't think depth has much to do with having an expansion pack of real world influences anyways

#

I think that framing of it simply isn't true

#

Maybe it makes it less weird or alien, which tbf I think is desirable

#

Depth though? Nothing to do with it

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah

hardy quarry
#

Sorry I understand you don't mean it that way

#

I've just been internally screaming for the last half hour

#

I think Skyrim should have taken more steps towards better presentation, like Morrowind

#

So I agree with you there

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah, that's the core of my problem.

gaunt tundra
#

Sorry to interrupt but do u guys have the option to join other chats cuz the obliviom and skyrim chat just disappeared for me

quartz shuttle
#

Did you colapse the category on the left?

#

If you colapse the category, itll only pop up if there are unread posts

gaunt tundra
#

Nope i think i should refresh the app maybe there’s a glotch

quartz shuttle
#

Try a refresh and get back to us

gaunt tundra
#

Yup idk what was going on it’s all good now

#

Thank you

quartz shuttle
#

No problem.

hardy quarry
#

Many of the mechanics were more immersive, and it was a step back into Tamriel again

#

The Oblivion era felt like a dark age to people and it was genuinely uncertain if the TES we had grown to know even had a future

#

Not only that but it canonized a lot of great stuff

#

Like Hjalti and CHIM'd jungles

#

There was a lot of love letters to lore nerds in that game

#

I mean hell to this day no one has properly broken down Falmer and Dwemer language which the game makes possible

#

No one talks about how giantish has a few words and we can translate it, and that giantish is canon again

#

And fewer people have realized the crazy Riften court mage Wylandriah talks about deep lore within coded language

#

The iconography in temples suggests amazing stuff for Atmoran temples. Some iconography directly imply jills

#

Odahviing is a red dragon and the red dragons of Cyrod were made canon again

#

Skyrim hasn't even begun to be studied or utilized in a lore sense

#

The biggest problem is accessibility, and Bethesda 100% dropped the ball on that

#

And then in top of all of that, it has the most subtle storytelling moments, often telling stories on environmental evidence alone

#

Or hidden stories like that of the Blade in the inn whose story you can never know and who people only tell you doesn't eant to be talked to

#

But if you dig you quickly learn why

quartz shuttle
#

Oh, i don't mean that skyrim is bad. Far from it, i think it is the best game in the franchise in an onjective sense

hardy quarry
#

We're letting being held back by a lot of "sola Morrowind" mindsets these days

quartz shuttle
#

The deeper and more interesting g world building of Morrowind makes it my FAVOURITE game, but its a deeply flawd game in and of its self

hardy quarry
#

I wish we could acknowledge all the good in Skyrim and acknowledge that Bethesda could have done some things better, as a community

quartz shuttle
#

Outside of its worldbuilding, it really doesn't have much else going for it.

#

Skyrim, on the other hand, is good allround

hardy quarry
#

The whole thing still reads like a huge apology letter over Oblivion to me

quartz shuttle
#

Well, i mean. We deserve it

#

Eff Oblivion

#

Though, i will admit. Part of my hatred of Oblivion is just me being salty because of my own expectations

hardy quarry
#

Well....they set the expectations themselves you know? Not your fault.

#

I'm pretty over it since it was so long ago

#

I took Skyrim's apology and just dropped the issue lmao

quartz shuttle
#

Im a grumoy curmudgeon, i never let things go

#

Probably part of the reason im still single

hardy quarry
#

That sounds like more energy than it's worth tbh

#

I'm only still getting annoyed over Bretons because of how many times people tried to shut down my discussing them

#

But that's over now too

quartz shuttle
#

Eh, life has kinda sucked for the last 7 years, Rage and Spite sustain me

hardy quarry
#

It can be worse man, trust me. Count your blessings

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah. Rage and spite may sustain me, but its recognising that others are way, WAY worse off that motivates me. If people in Syria and keep going, then i can too

#

Anywho, from a broad design perspective, i think gameplay should be the main focus if game design. You want tk create engaging and enjoyablr gameplay experiences.

#

Worldbuilding is secondary, and what ultimately serves more to direct the construction of the environment you put that gameplay into

hardy quarry
#

I think we probably agree on most everything and I'm just having a big unnecessary kneejerk reaction

quartz shuttle
#

Its ok, i have thise too

#

Gameplay is what makes the game feel good. Worldbuilding is what makes it feel distinct

hardy quarry
#

Yep

quartz shuttle
#

You can have 2 games with almost identical ganeplay feel totally unique simply based on their worldbuilding.

hardy quarry
#

You can have a good game with good gameplay, but great games are made by narratives

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah

hardy quarry
#

The only way you're getting remembered long term in history is if you were the first person to do something or you used a powerful narrative

#

Narrative is why fights in Star Wars suck know

quartz shuttle
#

At the same time, the best story isn't going to save a terrible gameplay

hardy quarry
#

In the inferior combat of Empire Strikes Back, every blow hits harder

#

Because of the emotional and narrative weight involved

hardy quarry
quartz shuttle
#

Yeah.

#

But it is why, in general, i compartmentalize Gameplay and Lore from a design standpoint

#

When I'm trying to think of gameplay, its from a universal perspective. Exceptions being Magic, Psychic Powers, or High-Tech stuff, whkxh needs to be setting integrated

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But, like, a Melee Combat system? Doesn't matter if you using a Sword, a Police Baton, or a Power Axe, they all work and feel the same conceptually.

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Same with moving and running. Basic gsmeplay systems are pretty easy to design well without a setting in mind.

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You the use the setting tk create the sandbox you get to play in.

hardy quarry
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I would actually suggest that systems are better when they are integrated tbh

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But yeah I think you have to do that from a critic standpoint

quartz shuttle
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Some, definitel

hardy quarry
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I do a lot of tabletop and these days I try to make my systems conform more to the setting

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So from a design standpoint I don't like to separate tbh

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That's one of the things that gives Glorantha so much weight

quartz shuttle
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Well, Tabletop is a bit of a different medium, so its got different considerations as well

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But, like... shooting in a game is pretty universal. You tweak it based on a setting, sure, but from Doom to Halo to CoD to Fallout, the actual mechanics of shooting a gun are all pretty much the same.

hardy quarry
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Well Skyrim itself is evidence that this does translate from tabletop

quartz shuttle
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Even Tarkhov doesn't stray, because the formula has mostly been nailed.

hardy quarry
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Tabletop just has fewer barriers to entry

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Refining systems even in tabletop is an art though

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It can definitely be applied in vidya

quartz shuttle
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Yeah, and in some areas it's definitely appropriate and needed

hardy quarry
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I'm not saying you conform the gameplay loop to it

quartz shuttle
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Magic, for instance, functions wildly differently in different settings. So how its supposed to function in your settinf needs to be considered.

hardy quarry
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A lot of what I mean is window dressing specifically

quartz shuttle
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Yeah

hardy quarry
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Window dessing is a huge deal though

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Favorite example in games is Skyrim's perk system

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What I want more RPGs to do as well is move towards classes being jobs

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Whatever the person did for a living

quartz shuttle
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Yeah

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A Class is no more a definitive identity than Accountant is

hardy quarry
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It more helps express what you are

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Trust me it makes a huge difference for roleplay

quartz shuttle
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Agreed, and having room for that is great. But making it prescriptive is hugely limiting.

hardy quarry
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It's good thing I'm not arguing for prescription then

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Something to point though is that even if I was, limits are what breed growth

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Infinity isn't what makes things meaningful, scarcity is

coral mantle
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got a question

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what were people expecting from the TES when Skyrim was announced? were there much talks about Dragonborn business at all?

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people talk about HoonDing a lot as if it was confirmed so im wondering how predictable BGS are

dusk timber
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Dragonborn stuff was referenced since the first Skyrim teaser iirc.
We didn't know details until E3 and the reveal trailer

hardy quarry
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Yep

coral mantle
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oh

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okay, then what about before the teaser? right after Oblivion

hardy quarry
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There was a lot of incredulity over the dragonborn actually

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But then people saw thu'um and went "well at least it's cool"

hardy quarry
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Just a vague idea that we were probably going to Skyrim

dusk timber
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^^

quartz shuttle
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The Skyrim thing only really took off after the Copyright filing too

coral mantle
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and what Dragonborn? now im curious, gotta browse

hardy quarry
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Wdym what dragonborn

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The one in the game

coral mantle
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i mean like, between Skyrim rumors and Skyrim announcements, did anybody bet that the next TES hero would be a Dragonborn?

hardy quarry
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No

dusk timber
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Nobody knew what was coming

coral mantle
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probably because Oblivion's hero was a nobody? so i'm wondering if TES VI's hero is a nobody as well

hardy quarry
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It went against how a lot of people had interpreted Dragonborn lore too actually

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Yeah idk if we'll literally be hoonding

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At least not all the time

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Hoonding is more of a force than a being

quartz shuttle
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Its been both

hardy quarry
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I suspect more African Kurosawa

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Nah HoonDing isn't really a being, it just manifests in people

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And not even all the time

dusk timber
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Some say Cyrus was a manifestation of HoonDing

hardy quarry
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Yeah but not at all times

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He did manifest it, but the only canonical time that he did, he manifested it with Prince A'tor

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They were only the HoonDing together

quartz shuttle
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The Hoonding remains vague enough that it could be either. Even Cyrus and A'tor are only rumoured or believed to have been it

hardy quarry
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Nah MK confirmed that a long time ago

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Something discussing the events or HoonDing or whatever mentions a crowned sword so someone took it apart

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And then MK walked in and golf clapped

dusk timber
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😐

quartz shuttle
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Eh, MK isn't word of god

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His opinion caries a lot kf weight, but until the subject js directly dealt with

hardy quarry
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Yeah but his opinion surely matters over his own material that he wrote

plain ibex
hardy quarry
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I won't accept MK's word for say....something Ted says but I will accept it for his own work

coral mantle
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that means.. BGS can't possibly ~not~ make HoonDing a thing even if they try

hardy quarry
quartz shuttle
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One of these days ill write up my heretical text on the Hoonding...

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But it is nkt this day

coral mantle
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can you do a one sentense heretical post? i've no idea what that is and it seems it would take more than one uesp visit to get the idea

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is it... the need of change, like argonians believe? ku-vastei i think

hardy quarry
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But yeah if Bethesda overwrites MK then they are right

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But I'm not going to take other people's words over the dude who authored the thing himself until that happens

dusk timber
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I have a beef with MK, but that's me as a writer.

hardy quarry
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Yeah me too

quartz shuttle
dusk timber
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So a Mehrunes Dagon type of thing?

quartz shuttle
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Yeah

coral mantle
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huh, pretty much the same then. Lorkhan style

quartz shuttle
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The first time he manifested, the Yokudans invaded the Lefthanders. The second tine, they invaded Tamriel. The last time, hhe never fully manifested

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But when he does, it will be to raze Tamriel ti the ground and drive all infidels into the sea. Then the Redguard will need to find somewhere else again.

coral mantle
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oh bloody hell im gonna need to replay Alik'r area of ESO with this in mind

quartz shuttle
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There is no real lore to back it up, its just something i came up with during a discussion elsewhere about playing eith the Prophecy dynamic

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And having a game where the goal is to STOP the Prophecy.

hardy quarry
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I wouldn't say he didn't truly manifest

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The purpose of make way is to make you get out the way

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In the ye olde fireside chats that's what came up for the Make Way God

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All the people were saying, "GET OUT OF OUR WAY" and their will manifested as Make Way

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It's sort of like a spirit of youth in a way

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The people felt their time had come and it was time for everyone else to go away for them to get their turn

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A'tor and Cyrus force the Empire to make way, putting them in a position where they have to capitulate to some of the demands of the conquered Hammerfell

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The energy at the end of Redguard is one of upward momentum for the Redguards

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They've given the Empire a black eye and now the Empire is forced to play by new rules

ocean brook
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. . . does anything actually come of that, though? in the long run?

quartz shuttle
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Nah

uncut hatch
quartz shuttle
uncut hatch
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I very much did.

coral mantle
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daedric ruins on vvardenfell definitely don't seem inviting to me

uncut hatch
hardy quarry
# uncut hatch What?

The biggest problem is accessibility, and Bethesda 100% dropped the ball on that

uncut hatch
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How though?

hardy quarry
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Hahahah I was hoping you'd say what again 🤣

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Idk I feel like I explained my reasoning already

uncut hatch
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Alright.

hardy quarry
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Now I just feel bad

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There is a lot of great lore and information in Skyrim but it's something you have to dig for, it's not something that helps people to realize there is more going on at times

uncut hatch
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Why make it all blatant? No fun in that imo.

quartz shuttle
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There's a difference between making it blatant, and making it obtuse

dusk timber
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Honestly, being so straightforward was imho a problem in Morrowind and Oblivion.

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I love Oblivion but still

quartz shuttle
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Take the murals in the tombs for instance. Beyond the raw visual, there's literally no information on them or what they represent anywhere in Skyrim

uncut hatch
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I don't think the lore is obtuse. I think it hits a good balance.

quartz shuttle
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Fresco? Stelle?

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Bas relief! That's the word i'm looking for

uncut hatch
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What?

hardy quarry
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Dragons are supposedly philosophers yet they interact so little with the narrative outside of being combatants. The Greybeards are monks and yet we know very little of their theology by the end of the game, and don't have an ability to learn either. The Nords are Imperialized when we had an option to have more Nordic-inspired religion. They don't even talk about that many gods outside of Talos. Kyne is mentioned but often takes a back seat. The dragon cult is everywhere and some people have spent time living among them before and yet there is very little to actually learn about them as well.

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The Dragon War narrative poorly fits into the previously established history for early 1E Skyrim and needed more information. Alduin is a world-eater and yet is trying to be a conqueror instead and we don't know why

dusky scaffold
quartz shuttle
uncut hatch
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The greybeards share quite a great deal about their views. So... I don't get that point at all. Dragons also may be philosophers, but we see them raise up arms with alduin to dominate like they once did. The only two dragons we see with any sort of philosophy is paarthurnax and the dragon in the soul cairn, who either mutinied against alduin or, well, got soul trapped.

The nords are also "imperialized" because skyrim has belonged to the empire for a good while now. We still see their nordic sides, but it isn't that prominent due to the Empire having controlled skyrim.

Also we do know why alduin is trying to conquer rather than end the kalpa. The ancient nords have dragons at the top of their religious animals. They're the kings. The worshipped them, of which we can see with the dragon priests. The worship went to alduin's and the dragon's heads. Plus they are born with an inherent desire to dominate. All of this is again explained and detailed. Some of this is even blatantly stated (like the greybeards).

hardy quarry
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Alright tell me one theological position of the Greybeards that isn't just about the turning of the kalpa or that peace is good.

You can explain why the Nords are Imperialized. This isn't an issue of broken lore, it's an issue of lore that could have been better than what we got.

The Nords having dragons as kings doesn't explain why Alduin is called the world-ender but isn't actually ending the world.

uncut hatch
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The greybeards see the th'uum as a tool rather than a weapon. It's the very essence of speech, to worship the gods rather than destroy. This was from jurgen windcaller which came to this conclusion after the disaster of red mountain.

The nordic pantheon lore is still in the game. Ironically it's quite present, just not blatant...because skyrim is empire territory. The only reason morrowind had their own religion still dominant was due to how little power the empire actually had because morrowind was gained through treaty rather than conquest.

Alduin is the world eater. That is his job. But he's also a dragon which has an inherent nature of domination. And i don't know about you but if you feed the nature of something more often than not they'll eat that up. The worshipping went to alduin's head.

hardy quarry
# uncut hatch The greybeards see the th'uum as a tool rather than a weapon. It's the very esse...

The greybeards see the th'uum as a tool rather than a weapon. It's the very essence of speech, to worship the gods rather than destroy. This was from jurgen windcaller which came to this conclusion after the disaster of red mountain.

And they thought nothing else during the actual thousands of years they have existed? No new ideas since the First Era? How do people join the monastery? What do they learn? What do they think is the nature of speech and breath? How do they connect this with life? We have a few whats here but not a whole lot more. The presentation can be better.

The nordic pantheon lore is still in the game. Ironically it's quite present, just not blatant...because skyrim is empire territory. The only reason morrowind had their own religion still dominant was due to how little power the empire actually had because morrowind was gained through treaty rather than conquest.

Dude I don't care, a more Nordic themed pantheon just would have been more fun. I don't care what the explanation is. The presentation can be better.

Alduin is the world eater. That is his job. But he's also a dragon which has an inherent nature of domination. And i don't know about you but if you feed the nature of something more often than not they'll eat that up. The worshipping went to alduin's head.

We are told that he wants to dominate, but we have zero evidence of him ever attempting to end the world outside of myth, and we don't know why he would start either. He doesn't just have this divine role, it's an actual truth that the Nords have perceived out of his nature. The fact that there is confusion over the main antagonist means that the presentation can be beter.

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Skyrim has a lot of great stuff going for it in its lore but these are points that just aren't examples of that

quartz shuttle
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I think, in particular, Alduin was really poorly handled

hardy quarry
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Yeah

quartz shuttle
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Is he here to conquer the world, or end it?

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The presentation is confused enough that there are arguments for both sides

hardy quarry
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It's one of the things Oblivion did better with. Mankar Camoran has a whole book for us to break down his thoughts

uncut hatch
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I heavily disagree. I think if the old Nordic pantheon was more present it'd hurt the lore. I think if alduin wasn't shrouded in myth and legend it'd hurt the lore. And i don't think the greybeards need to do much else when they formed after their founder said "this voice was gifted to us by kyne, and we're being abused for abusing the goddess' gift." Like... Not everything needs 100 layers behind it.

quartz shuttle
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I definitely thing that a degree of mystery and uncertianty is important, especially when dealing with gods... But with how Skyrim was handled, you don't even come out of it knowing what Alduin wanted to do

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You don't have to understand what Alduin is, but you should at least know the villians goals

uncut hatch
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I did my first playthrough.

hardy quarry
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Well the religion isn't about having 100 layers, it's about having an actual coherent religion to begin with. Religion is a structure that adds layers to things by its very nature. Not a retirement home and support group for people with a fun hobby.

The Nordic pantheon does not hurt the lore. Not sure what the justification of that is.

And having Alduin being more coherent doesn't mean Alduin has to be shrouded in anything. That just means having him more coherent.

hardy quarry
quartz shuttle
hardy quarry
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He very clearly did

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But even Paarthurnax is talking about him ending the world

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Some speculate he was powering up in Sovngarde and would have been a big bad world-eater later

uncut hatch
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The greybeards' religion is using the goddess' gift to worship and pray to her. That's not hard to grasp nor is it unbelievable. It doesn't need much more if that's the literal reason jurgen windcaller came up with the idea. Heck it's even written on the stone tablets as you walk the 7,000 steps.

If the nordic pantheon were more present, it'd hurt the lore that the empire is pushing their own religious ideas onto their territory.

Alduin is coherent. He's the firstborn of akatosh, made to end the kalpa. Yet he's a dragon, and thus has an inherent nature to dominate. When he first came to end the kalpa, he found that the nords worshipped him and his kind, and his dominating nature took precedent. Then he got sent forward in time and started to rebuild his following.

quartz shuttle
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He can't do jack squat until he defeats a Dragonborn, and he doesn't take you seriously. Why isn't actually clear until Dragonborn came out

uncut hatch
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And that's fine. I mean while it might be wrong if you get a different interpretation then hey, that's cool.

hardy quarry
# uncut hatch The greybeards' religion is using the goddess' gift to worship and pray to her. ...

The greybeards' religion is using the goddess' gift to worship and pray to her. That's not hard to grasp nor is it unbelievable. It doesn't need much more if that's the literal reason jurgen windcaller came up with the idea. Heck it's even written on the stone tablets as you walk the 7,000 steps.

You do realize TES has had religion with more depth than this right? Why is it wrong for someone to be unsatisfied with the presentation, especially when they've seen how TES has adapted religions to function more like they do irl. The Greybeards do not accomplish this. If someone expects more out of a game that's their prerogative, and this is a common enough issue for TES fans that there's even a large mod project for TES5 just to address all of this. This isn't okay for quite a lot of people, and for good reason.

If the nordic pantheon were more present, it'd hurt the lore that the empire is pushing their own religious ideas onto their territory.

It wouldn't hurt the lore dude. If it was written differently before release it would be just as simple to say that the Imperials hadn't succeeded. This is using what was written to prove that something else couldn't have been done instead. It's circular logic. The point here is that the result of undesirable, not that the result can't be explained.

Alduin is coherent. He's the firstborn of akatosh, made to end the kalpa. Yet he's a dragon, and thus has an inherent nature to dominate. When he first came to end the kalpa, he found that the nords worshipped him and his kind, and his dominating nature took precedent. Then he got sent forward in time and started to rebuild his following.

If Alduin doesn't eat the world, then why do people know he's a world eater that ends kalpas.

uncut hatch
#

Alduin's title is "world-eater". In fact that's explicitly stated whenever you load up a new game and get alduin on a word wall and iirc the excerpt from the book of the dragonborn.

As for the greybeards not "evolving" i mean...yeah? It's a niche group of monks with a dragon as their leader and constant reminders of what their organization believes on tablets as you walk up to high hrothgar. I don't think it'd make sense for it to change tbh. It isn't a wide religion like others.

And also i heavily find it unlikely that for all the time skyrim was in the empire, and 200 years later (as of skyrim) the empire failed to push their religion to be the dominant one.

hardy quarry
#

For the record man, Skyrim is my favorite TES game. I'm not saying this out of malice or to be a negative circlejerker

quartz shuttle
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I mean... you have people on ESO who actively say they follow Talos...

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Who won't be born for anotehr 400 years, so, maybe he has a point

hardy quarry
#

I have far more good things to say about Skyrim than not

hardy quarry
abstract ibex
#

good lord is the conversation about skyirm good or bad still going on? hasnt this been like 6hours? or is this a new one?