elder-scrolls-lore

[quartz shuttle]

Buuuut, i actually know what i want out of a Hammerfell game, narrative wise, sooo...

We won't get it, but hey, i know what i want

Mostly, i want a Winged Hussar's moment, and the Empire is the only one likely to have that sort of heavy cavalry.

[brave shoal]

i imagine orcs or khaajit could have that too if they ever felt they wanted (though not sure if they use horses or something more exotic,especially the catfolks)

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah.

And i suppose the Bretons, though they're more Medieval Knights than Enlightment Lancers

Basically, i want a political plotline of the Dominion invading Hammerfell again, and your job is to try and unite the various city states and factions to help fight them off. Overwhelmed, you get sent to deliver a message and a call for help to an Imperial spy, but get no response by the time the Dominion hits Sentinel.

With no other hope, you participate in the defense of Sentinel, fighting off the Dominion until you hear horns in the distance, and a column of Imperial Cavalry charges into the Dominion flanks as the Legions encircle their camp.

Way more cinematic an image than we are ever likely to get in a Bethesda game, of course

[quartz shuttle]

Plus, if the Alik'r are not Fremen, i will be most irate

[plain ibex]

Redguard Stillsuits would be interesting to see. I don't think they have as much reverence to water as the Fremen do though.

[west palm]

I'm usually willing to give changes a chance in strongly hereditary monarchies.

[hardy quarry]

We'll see I guess. It's not like the 'cloaks smell like a rose themselves

[quartz shuttle]

I'm pretty sure saying what they smell like would get me banned here

[west palm]

There's a chance everyone smells good, hygiene was a Big Thing among the Vikings. So big the other Europeans were jealous of how attractive the Viks were.

[quartz shuttle]

I was more going to make a political joke

[west palm]

Politics? In Elder Scrolls?

https://tenor.com/view/oh-my-shocked-how-dare-you-shock-shocking-gif-3536734

[quartz shuttle]

Lol

[plain ibex]

Solitude has wash basins, Windhelm doesn't. This just brings me back to the lack of bathrooms in Skyrim aside from that one bucket next to a stool in some bandit camp. Where does everyone "go"? This is an issue in Morrowind and Oblivion, too. Only game I can think of without this issue is Blades and its Outhouse decoration.

[brave shoal]

i handwave it as not being interesting to see kind of thing. lets handwave that there oathouse and similar, no use to show it unless you want to shoot people there like tyrion

[plain ibex]

Who knows, it might be fun to kill a target in a Dark Brotherhood mission by putting a fire rune or 3 outside of an outhouse while the target occupies it or sneaking into an Imperial bathouse to steal a high ranking guy's underpants then leaving a note in its place as a warning to not cross your employers again during a Thieves Guild quest.

[pastel sorrel]

@plain ibex It's a scale thing. Not every little detail is actually depicted, there's a lot to the world you don't see in game

full scale of the landscape and cities, various other business and guilds and whatnot (there's a ton of guilds in the Imperial charter), bathing and plumbing and whatnot

sometimes you see that stuff (especially in ESO there's sometimes washrooms for instance), but otherwise it's just conservation of detail

same reason people aren't wearing backpacks or the like to carry their stuff during their treks

[plain ibex]

Imperial Charter? Which one, I wanna read it on the wiki. We could always use smaller guilds as sidequests, like the Bard's college but you're able to do the things other members can. Pottery/glasswork? Where do you think the bottles for potions you make come from? Plumbing? Fixing pipes and murdering things in sewers.

[pastel sorrel]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guild_Act

@plain ibex

[plain ibex]

They all sound like they have potential for much more unexpected and out there questlines. Even the one I think the bot won't like me mentioning.

[pastel sorrel]

Prostitutes Guild is canon, fight me bot

[plain ibex]

So you can say it, good to note.

Prostitute guild could be required for a Dark Brotherhood quest kinda like the one in Oblivion with the Rose of Sithis, where the guy has to undress out of his OP armour for you to kill him, or as distractions like Assassin's Creed Courtesans.

[coral mantle]

prostitute guild doesn't sound like ~2020 though. fortunately, BGS keeps playing around it with Dibellan cults \o/

[dusky scaffold]

BGS does?

I only remember ZOS doing

[plain ibex]

Unlike reality it's equal opportunity (as far as I know). Man? Woman? Daedra? Anyone can be one.

[split iris]

TES Prostitute Guilds would most definitely have workers ranging various genders and races, yes. Daedra on the other hand...well, maybe some Sanguinarian Sects

[coral mantle]

ZOS.. yes, they went further into this stuff, definitely

[quartz shuttle]

"Back in my day, Dibellan clergy didn't even WEAR clothes!"

[split iris]

I love that NPC

[quartz shuttle]

Crotchity old men, pissed off about the lack of naked women

[split iris]

She was actually a woman

[quartz shuttle]

Was it?

Man, it's been awhile

[split iris]

Quite. She is in front of the Temple in Anvil. And from the way she spoke, she might have been a former priestess.

[quartz shuttle]

Clearly i need to play mo ESO

[plain ibex]

Anvil really got boring in the 3rd/4th era, huh?
Aside from the haunted mansion of course.

[quartz shuttle]

Cyrodiil really got boring in the 3rd era

[plain ibex]

The Mad God had the doors to his realm open, I wouldn't call that boring.

[quartz shuttle]

You mean the Cheese God

Not impressed with the castration of the most terrifying Daedric Prince in Shivering Isles

[dusky scaffold]

the was only one daedric prince in shivering isles...

[quartz shuttle]

Yes, and he was a silly cheese man

This is hte prince who tricked Malacath into murdering his own son, just for shiz and giggles

And we get a silly scotsman with a thing for cheese

[plain ibex]

I suppose he went for more of the prank kinda thing, otherwise it'd be RNG if you got to continue the Shivering Isles or if he kills you where you stand, pulls out your bones and stomach and turns them into bagpipes...

[quartz shuttle]

Which would have been easily resolved in Haskill did what a Chamberlain is supposed to, and act as the go-between

Instead, they had us directly interacting with Sheogorath, which necessitated stripping him of everything that made him terrifying

[plain ibex]

And making him the nicest of daedric princes, in tone and deed at least towards the player.

[quartz shuttle]

Which doesn't fit with what Sheogorath is. But, damage done now, no going back.

[split iris]

What is Meme may never die

[plain ibex]

Still waiting on the Cheese Atronach.

[real junco]

Is the Dragonborn supposed to be a Nord or can they be someone other than a Nord?

[proper ice]

They can be anyone, same as the Nerevarine could have been any race and the HoK too

[real junco]

Nerevarine?
I’m new to es lore

[uncut hatch]

The Morrowind player character

[west palm]

Basically, the guy/gal who fakes it till they make it and become a reincarnation of Lord Indoril Nerevar.

[timber bough]

Yeah, race is irrelevant for TES heroes

Though an elven HoK and thus Pelinal Whitestrake mantler is still funny

[quartz shuttle]

Did someone say Pelinal?

https://tenor.com/view/robocop-walking-movie-cop-gif-16916495

[real junco]

HOK?

[quartz shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/robocop-robocop2-robocop-ed209-ed209-gif-20679674

[topaz dome]

Hero of Kvatch, our character in Oblivion.

[quartz shuttle]

Oh, derp. I though they were comparing the HoK to Pelinal, so i had to compare ED209 to Robocop

[real junco]

Can the Dragonborn, Nerevarine and the HOK be the same person?

[sand flume]

you could headcanon it yeah, there would be problems with not being recognised across games though

and for nerevarine/HOK to appear in skyrim theyd either need to be a really really old elf or powerful mage

[split iris]

I think the bigger issue arises when dealing with the Chim-El Adabal

[real junco]

Chim-El adabal

[sand flume]

your HoK should also not do shivering isle cause that would mean becoming sheo

and that would mean seeing yourself if you do sheo's quest in skyrim

[real junco]

Ah

So could Nerevarine and the Dragonborn be the same person?

But not HOK

[split iris]

It is more in the realm of possibility than the HOK being Dragonborn

[sand flume]

can be HoK in theory, just dont do shivering isle

say a different person did it

we're anyways deep in the realm of headcanon

[split iris]

Even without Shivering Isle, as I said, not being able to wear the Adabal is the issue

[real junco]

What’s the adabal?

[split iris]

Amulet of Kings

[real junco]

Ah

[sand flume]

just dont attempt to wear it and theres no problem 😉

"oh i wouldve totally been able to wear it if i tried"

[split iris]

Ah yes, the Ostrich Defence

[sand flume]

i mean we're talking about heroes with separate prophecies anyways

as i said, protags being the same character is very headcanon territory

[split iris]

I think that was quite clear. We were merely stating the variables in support and against for its level of possibility

[real junco]

What does Cannon mean?

[sand flume]

canon would mean factual lore

[split iris]

It is a ballistic weapon used upon ships

[sand flume]

headcanon is personal lore that applies just to you

its not canon that the three protagonists are the same character, because youre not recognised across games and there are rumours about nerevarine being gone by the time of oblivion and as dr said, HoK cant wear amulet of kings. but as a headcanon its fine because you can find small ways to justify it

[brave shoal]

the only headcanon i have in es is tht dwemer arent gone, just stuck somewhere and will return someday and i like to imagine the chaos that would make

[sand flume]

i headcanon becoming more and more like a dragon, the more dragon souls you absorb

in terms of behaviour

[split iris]

TES was never one for absolute statements. Even with the Dwemer as God-Skins, who is to say Yagrum was really the only Dwemer in all of Nirn exploring the outer realms.

[sand flume]

believe what you want in order to enhance your own experience

as long as people dont share their headcanons as actual canons, i think theyre a great idea

[brave shoal]

But what about my book ''The Lusty Automaton'' now banned in 3 provinces!

[sand flume]

😳

[quartz shuttle]

They could all be the same person. The fate o the HoK is unconfirmed

Most of us lean towards the whole Sheogorath thing, but that doesn't make it fact. All that's known is the HoK disappeared

[pastel sorrel]

We've already had confirmation from Bethesda that the CoC is Sheogorath.

[quartz shuttle]

Have we? I've never seen it

[pastel sorrel]

And it's not like it was left uncertain to begin with, the whole point of the SI questline was to facilitate it.

[quartz shuttle]

But it lacks the clear establishment of perminance

Jyggalag himself states that you MAY grow into your position

And then ESO raises questions about whether or not the result is even permanent, with many interpreting Haskill's answers during the oficial Loremasters Q&A as indicating you can't end the cycle

[pastel sorrel]

Doesn't mean they've interpreted that correctly. Can just as well mean the previous attempts were failures

Jyggalag tells us we've finally succeeded.

[quartz shuttle]

Oh, i agree. Im just saying, that its not certain

[pastel sorrel]

And bear in mind the context when he says "Perhaps you will grow to your station".

I will take my leave, and you will remain here, mortal. Mortal...? King? God? It seems uncertain. This Realm is yours. Perhaps you will grow to your station.

[quartz shuttle]

There are other interpretations, ans they've left it vague enough to be open

[pastel sorrel]

There's a certain narrative momentum to that dialogue, almost akin to a Chehkov's Gun, likely to explain why you're not fully Sheogorath right away ingame. Sheogorath still needs time to take back over.

[quartz shuttle]

I PERSONALLY support the Mantle Theory, and think its pretty well supporter. But there are others out there

[pastel sorrel]

Found it.

[quartz shuttle]

Well, that answer is... not definitive

[pastel sorrel]

It confirms the mantling at least and that already puts half the speculation to rest.

[quartz shuttle]

True, but based on what it says, the mantling was backwards

Sheogorath mantled the HoK

[pastel sorrel]

Which isn't necessarily incorrect, to be fair, just that came after

CoC becomes Sheogorath, Sheogorath takes back over.

[quartz shuttle]

Anyway, my point was that there's wiggle room. I think the Mantling js the best explanation, but...

The basic principle of Mantling would mean there is only ever Sheogorath

[pastel sorrel]

And?

[quartz shuttle]

No and, just a statement

[pastel sorrel]

It's kind of an incomplete statement.

What's the issue with that principal?

[quartz shuttle]

Oh, nothing. Two different statements

I was just half way through the first when you posted

[pastel sorrel]

There always being Sheogorath is ultimately the point; one can almost view him like a title passed down or a chair being sat in

Actually funnily enough that's basically directly stated in Legends, him giving the title down to himself every few thousand years, he might be being more serious than we give him credit for.

It may even be where Arden-Sul comes into the picture, he might've been the previous attempted mantler (maybe even then becoming Haskill) and the Zealots and Heretics are both sort-of correct

Failure or success, Sheogorath continues on. Where we succeed is we held the position ourselves against Jygglag. He has no open position of Sheogorath to return to, therefore he can remain as Jyggalag.

I'm Already Tracer TES edition

[quartz shuttle]

Personally, i think Haskill is actually a conglomeration of previous Mantles

He's where the castoff bits end up, tje last shreds of sanity

[west palm]

What if Sheogorath I an amalgamation of all who became it?

As in, you do not replace Sheogorath - you join the amalgam as another facet, and the apparent insanity is because a million minds manifest at once in a single body.

[hardy quarry]

No. Canon means authoritative lore

[sand flume]

whats the difference

[topaz dome]

Authoritative lore is lore that has been approved by Bethesda. "Lore" unapproved by Bethesda is not authoritative.

[sand flume]

what would just factual lore be then

i kinda took it for the same thing

[plain ibex]

Isn't the plot illness the Nerevarine gets able to prevent dying from old age as well as its downsides?

[topaz dome]

I'm not sure what you mean by "factual" lore. I've never heard anybody use that term before. There is "canon" (or authoritative lore), approved by Bethesda. Then there is everything else. If by "factual" lore you mean "canon", then yes, they are the same.

[hardy quarry]

Authoritative just means that the source has more weight behind it, but it doesn't make it true.

[uncut hatch]

yea

cause not dying of old age is something the blight does

[hardy quarry]

In journalism for example you have primary and secondary sources based on eyewitness and secondhand accounts. The eyewitness account gets more weight and credence but it doesn't make everything the eyewitness says true

What it means that it's better to a listen to an eyewitness first

That's essentially canonicity

If canonicity meant that everything in canon was true, it'd mean that everything non-canon isn't true, which simply isn't the case

But in general you want to rely on canon materials and only supplement with non-canon materials when they are relevant

And that's how the mark of authority manifests itself

[sand flume]

ahh think i get it, so by saying factual i was giving the assumption that only 100% confirmed lore was canon, when really canon encompasses more?

[hardy quarry]

Canonical material just refers to official Bethesda and ZOS licensed material

And then you have dev texts which are not canon but are still highly relevant since it's the works of the same people that worked on the game

Like it'd be silly to just toss those out right? They may not be canon but they are relevant and some even seem to be true and upheld by the canonical material as true

When faced with serious contradictions though, my advice would be to always favor the canon

There is material that is technically canon but isn't really lore, like random easter eggs like Eltonbrand. And maybe the Space Core crossover mod that Bethesda released

Lore encompasses the entire scope of source material, and in the hierarchy canon is #1

Make sense?

[sand flume]

ty for clarification

[hardy quarry]

No problem, it's actually a bit of a complex subject which is why I'm writing something to make it easier to understand

Even the canon has its own tiers of authority, as per Todd

[warped elbow]

Is there any lore on how Dunmer culture views interracial marriages? Such as Dunmer marrying Nords? I imagine it would be different depending on if they are in Morrowind or Skyrim.

[plain ibex]

It's seen as odd by pretty much every race I've seen, you can learn more from the ingame book Notes on Racial Phylogeny.

[quartz shuttle]

Interracial couples in general aren't exactly rare, but they aren't the norm.

Based on basically all known examples of Dunmeri sexuality however, they're pretty free with their activities.

Committed relationships are a different matter though.

[brave shoal]

i bet mostly a dunmer professing his love for an argonian will get rock thrown at him/her pretty fast

[west palm]

There is a quest in Stonefalls in ESO, where you save a mixed Dinner and Nord couples estate. They mention the Dunmer houise being nonplussed at the relationship. I figure it's like slavery in the Pact, officially it's all good, but peer under the covers and it's still there.

[west ivy]

Many of these milk-drinkers consider it heresy for a Dark Elf to marry one of another race.
"Nonplussed" is a bit of a diplomatic way to put it, by the sounds

[H]er family disowned her

[coral mantle]

and also Dunmer-Argonian couple in shadowfen or plains of Deshaan, im not sure. They married or just lovers, cant remember. And its completely beyond me how could you, ew ew, lay with someone so red-eyed, so pro-daedric

[vast swan]

If there is interracial marriage why aren’t they interracial races?phew too many races there

[vast swan]

I don’t take eso lore seriously

I mean they didn’t even make any palce authentic but solitude

[split iris]

That's a shame. I myself don't see the logic in that, for I'd be missing out on rather important and neat lore.

[split iris]

Well, I wouldn't expect cities to stay the same for 1000s of years

[vast swan]

U would be surprised I mean they haven’t made progress to black powder yet but a hand ful of orcs

[vast swan]

But if Skyrim should be true to ours timeline in some way it should be at advancement by now maybe a steampunk age or something

I mean like the 1000s yr difference

[west palm]

I wasn't entirely sure of what was said, beyond them being displeased. Thanks for the source ❤️

[split iris]

I fail to see what steampunk and gun powder has to do with cities looking different...

And the "advancement" paths we see on Earth are not universal. Tamriel hasn't gone into "technical advancement" because it simply needs not. What we call Tech, they'd call Magic. Both, say, the Altmer and Dwemer would be technologically advanced, with different flavours.

[vast swan]

If weapons don’t improve infrastructure don’t improve I mean honestly there shoulda been some form of new tech in a 1000”s yr difference

[split iris]

Tamriel has seen many dark ages that in a sense is on the verge of devolution. Red Year, Dagonic Attacks, etc.

Also how is this the fault of ESO when it takes place 1000 years in the past?

[west palm]

It's just a contrivance. The world of Tamriel should advance, and magic would help this advancement tremendously, but it doesn't. There's no real reason for it, it's just playing the Medieval Stasis trope absolutely straight and pretending the people of Tamriel have no curiosity or inclination to make their situation better on a reasonable scale.

[vast swan]

Ya I guess but with all the dwemer ruins around they should should be reverse engineering them by now like the stros maki quest

[west palm]

Or maybe they're just that fond of wiping themselves with leaves and bark?

[split iris]

Again, if the culture has no need of it, there is no point. If that is the case, we'd have no tribal cultures in sub saharan african or papua new guinea, and they'd be driving flying cars. The Nords were, say, more "magical" in the ESO era, but with every near-end-of-the-world, their old ways die and Jhunal immigrates to the south.

Alinor in the 4th Era on the other hands might be über-magic Dubai

[vast swan]

I’m just saying they should be in a steampunk age by then

[split iris]

The Dwemer had "mechanical technology" early on, not because they were "superior or advanced" (nor because they came from the future - yes it is a common thought..) but rather, that was their cultural focus.

[west palm]

That's not really an argument, given that the cultures of Tamriel constantly interact with each other and there would inevitably be progress based on that.

[split iris]

And there has been

[west palm]

Scarcely seems to be much progress between ESO and Skyrim, separated by hundreds of years.

[split iris]

The Nords are no longer living in meadhalls and hunting and gathering, drinking mead out of horns while singing songs to Shor and Kyne. They are farming, having forts and stone architecture and use plates while saying prayers to Akatosh (of all gods)

[west palm]

I'm not expecting smartphones and the Internet, but playing with the concept. Not necessarily how Pratchett did it, but explore how magic would be harnessed to make everyday life more bearable and pleasant.

And what stops them from developing further?

[split iris]

The issue is, is that modern day, we define tech simply as "cool metal gadget with electric and/or steam power"

[split iris]

The lack of necessity for evolution

[west palm]

I certainly don't, so please take that into account.

[vast swan]

See now that’s an improvement

[west palm]

So they're just happy to do back-breaking labor every day for the rest of their lives, completely content to stay in their preordinated social position?

[split iris]

See, you're thinking like a Earth human and not a Skyrim Nord. They very much are.

But the Altmer for example arent

So they have like idk enslaved Daedra and Arcane Golems or what have you

They have a Daedric type used just for a complex sewage system

[west palm]

I'm not sure I enjoy the characterization of Nords as an inferior race happy to do the bidding of their masters. This is the same characterization that was used for Poles for much of our recent history.

[split iris]

But see you are defining them as inferior.
I am not
I am not calling the Nords backwards, did I?

[west palm]

You indirectly are.

[vast swan]

They have there strengths

[split iris]

I am merely stating that their ideals and wants are separate to other places

[west palm]

By stating that Nords have no ambition and drive to move outside their current spot.

[split iris]

Wrong, they dont have ambitions to using Daedric slaves to do their farming nor touching Dwemer tech.

They improve their smithing and fighting skills and have a bunch of other cultural focuses

[west palm]

Which would make sense if they were an isolated people with no conception of living differently, but Skyrim is an integral part of the empire and Nords routinely interact with other people and see examples of how to love.

[split iris]

Is the tech of Skyrim that much different from Cyrodiil? Only by a small degree I'd say

[west palm]

OK, so what stops them from modernizing their agriculture so that they don't have to spend their whole days doing back-breaking labor in the fields and eventually retire as cripples?

This is the point: TES largely glosses over the amount of labor needed to maintain agriculture at scale at the tech level it portrays.

[split iris]

Absolutely nothing. Look at Solitude, a more Imperial-influenced region.

[west palm]

You're dodging the question.

[vast swan]

I mean tractors are a recent thing just the 1930”s automobile came off the line well 1910/1920”s

[west palm]

Because the farms between ESO and Skyrim look largely identical. It isn't as jarring when you focus on politics and social evolution (such as the Reachmen being extirpated by Nords in the next couple hundred years, in what's basically European-style colonization), but given that material conditions are a huge factor in social development, it feels like this aspect has been ignored.

[vast swan]

Not that long ago. we humans just have short lifespans

[vast swan]

I agree

[west palm]

Steam-powered agricultural engines were developed in the 19th century, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about things like new farm implements being developed to make better use of soils (heavy plow vs. light plow), importing new crops that can potentially radically change agriculture (potatoes, anyone?), new social developments based on that, etc. It feels like a woefully neglected part of the TES world.

[vast swan]

I’m sure there actually using horse and plow just the gameplay couldn’t run it they do have the wheel

[split iris]

Or they have Maran Priestesses dance upon the soil and sacrifice a Mudcrab to Kyne for rain and with the faith in gods, the get the average yield needed. Again, you are thinking evolution in Earth terms. Tamriel ent Earth nor LotR. Sure, things look the sameish on the front, but the path is different.

[west palm]

Especially given that the stories are all about opportunities and redefining yourself free of social mores (mantling being a major example), so pigeonholing entire cultures as "happy to be serfs" feels at odds with the whole point of the series.

[west palm]

See, this is what I call pigeonholing: The absolute statement that the people of Tamriel have no inclination to ever better their lot, because they can just do what they've always done. It's not even reflected in the setting, as people constantly try new things. Hell, isn't ESO all about three alliances doing revolutionary new things, like Nords and Dunmer not trying to murder each other, but work together, Dunmer freeing some slaves and pretending Argonians are people, Altmer cooperating with the world and... Well, I'm struggling with the Covenant, throw me a bone here. 😛

[split iris]

Again, you miss understand the statements I make. It doesn't go on about "no curiosity for the Nords" but rather on a wide spread, cultural and technological necessity. Nords and Dunmer not killing each other isn't going to get the Nords to have a tractor.

[west palm]

But a desire to not die a cripple at 30 would.

[plain ibex]

I'd say a lot of the tech I've seen has stagnated, especially in Skyrim. Few Nord (or any) smiths remember/are capable of making Steel Plate, something that was around when the dragons were first around. This goes for the Imperials as well, who have stopped using the better Corinthian style helmets of the Oblivion Crisis period for cheaper to produce and less protective Roman style armour. It even gets worse in Blades at least for the High Elves, given the downsizing their armour has gotten though the gear of men races has improved, especially Iron and Steel though it's not as good as their Morrowind counterparts.

The Nord's generic voice lines make them seem less intelligent to in terms of those in Morrowind though that applies to almost all races in Morrowind. Morrowind's Nords were cunning, well spoken and kept their cool even in combat, making threats they were certain of while Skyrim's are very shouty in combat.

[coral mantle]

i remember talking lads about powder in TES, like there's some note in ESO, someone explaining how inefficient powder is, compared to magic? and dangetous to keep around? dont have a source now, and posting with cell phone at work doesnt help

[west palm]

They keep using bows and swords, so I don't think efficiency is the real problem here.

[timber bough]

Efficiency is unlikely to be the problem given how much the Dwemer invested into advanced technology

Additionally, atleast for me Oblivion floats in this weird zone of inconsistencies given how rapidly the design of the Legion's armors changed comparatively between it and Morrowind. That being said even if the dark age comparison for Skyrim's time holds true politically, in real life the dark ages were far from a time of technological stagnation or regression

[west ivy]

Modern historiography has largely moved past the idea of a "Dark Ages" anyway so it isn't a particularly useful analogue

[west palm]

^

To elaborate: Bows and swords require a large amount of training in both physique and skill to be used effectively. Muskets did not, which is why they gained traction.

[quartz shuttle]

Eventually. In the eariest days, they were super unreliable, difficult to use, and required a good deal of skill. Their main advantage was their raw stopping power, with early matchlocks and arquebus being able to punch clear through plate armour, something which other ranged weapons struggled with.

Even then, it was a good 200 years before firearms really started to replace conventional bows and crossbows.

[west palm]

Well, and the fact you could stick them in the hand of people with rudimentary training, rather than a lifetime.

[sand flume]

why would someone from tamriel think "i should invent something with loads raw stopping power" when fireballs already exist

they were invented irl cause they filled a gap

a gap which doesnt exist in TES

[coral mantle]

could use cars though

[quartz shuttle]

Those are a little more complicated

Which is saying something, because making stable firearms is a complicated process

[west palm]

Because they work independently of magicka and require no mystical training. Point and shoot.

Like staves, which raises the question of why you just don't have mass formation of people with modified staves to act as pseydo-musket infantry.

[timber bough]

The doylist answer is, Bethesda just doesn't want advanced weaponry like that in their setting

[west palm]

Pillars of Eternity also had another answer: The file instantly, dont require spell work and training, and penetrate arcane veils (mage shields) with ease due to bullets being too fast.

[timber bough]

I don't think there's much of a point discussing it much further than that because there's no waterproof in-canon reason

[west palm]

Hah, yeah. Or anything that impacts Tamriels marketability.

Can't count how many times i had a :rubstemples: moment in ESO and it's "this place looks pretty much the same as several hundred years from now shrug". Mournhold and Vivec were welcome changes.

[timber bough]

I will say a fantasy setting with Renaissance-tier technology would be really cool to me in fact I'm planning to include references to such tech in a mod project I'm working on

But it's very unlikely that TES will ever fully delve into that

[quartz shuttle]

It's also something that tends to be awkward to execute well.

IMO, Pillars of Eternity did not execute it well.

[quartz shuttle]

Though it's Obsidian, so IMO they didn't execute anything well.

[sand flume]

theres a big difference between no one at the time being able to provide that level of stopping power, and a reasonable percentage of people being able to provide that same level (or rather, theyre already providing stopping power of a MUCH higher magnitude)

the empire has its battlemages, and thats more than enough

theres not much benefit to investing into research so that more people can provide a fraction of that power, especially considering theyll still be primarily using their martial weapons due to how long it would take to reload and accurately use their new weapons

[sand flume]

also staff usage still requires magical knowledge, it just uses a different energy source

[quartz shuttle]

It's an issue of the long development time too. Like, gunpowder was invented in the late 9th, early 10th century. The first super primitive firearms were a century later. Then 200 years later we started to see things that may resemble guns. And by the mid 17th century, they had become common place enough to be the mainstay of armies.

that's 700 years of development, with no real competition, before Guns became particularly common

[sand flume]

yep

meanwhile in TES there is competition, that being magic

[quartz shuttle]

yeah

[dusky scaffold]

well, we do have explosive powders (see kindlepitch in ESO) and cannons in Elder Scrolls already

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah, which is where i could see some development

I'd like them to take the traditional Yokudans away from the usual Magical paradigm, and focus on more Ottoman themes. Make the rise of the Ansei and the mystical side of the Redguad their counter culture, conflicting with their tradition

So, for instance, a revivalist movement amongst the Crowns would be digging up the old weapons of Yokuda in contrast to the Forbears who want to use tamrielic magic

[west palm]

I wouldn't call it 700 years of development, given that these steps forward were made in different context and in response to different pressures.

Something that quite bothers me is the virtual absence of spears or meaningful cavalry in Elder Scrolls. I don't recall a lot of references to the latter, and the former seemingly went poof after Morrowind, despite being one of the most useful and cheapest weapons in existence.

The PFI being issued spears en masse being testament to that.

[quartz shuttle]

Oh yeah, Technical development in general is extremly complicated.

[quartz shuttle]

Gameplay only. They're still present, based on the artwork, they just aren't a weapon that shows up in-game

[west palm]

And I lament that, since one of my characters is a spearman in his story. Really good with it too.

[quartz shuttle]

For instance, Tulius' card rom Legends

https://external-preview.redd.it/JFJw5gLUk_NiEJbjqCpjUypDANjfjtCsixtez8dzGvM.jpg?auto=webp&s=768fb26b0cdb988cd67ca8e82183859b65019173

[west palm]

But yeah, the tech progress thing loops back to my original annoyance. It doesn't have to be Pratchett-level playing with the concept through Ankh-Morpork or the Unseen University, but it'd be nice to hear of people experimenting with magitek. Portal magic is just begging to be used for toilets. No need for expensive indoor plumbing when you can send everything to Coldharbour.

Running water. Magical ovens. Personal sanitation (btw, the pools in Riften are basically public baths, no?). Couriers and communication long distance.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah. I feel a lot of worldbuilding and creativity is stifled by Howard's general preferance for classical Sword and Sorcery stuff

Though i'll admit, Peterson had a big hand in grounding that too.

[west palm]

Frankly, after Pillars of Eternity experimented with it so much, to the point of having a god-killing magitek nuke, ESO's lack of stuff on that front is kind of grating - especially when you consider that it has no problem touching on modern sociology, politics, and economy and all that complexity.

Feels like it's constrained by some of the early creative decisions 😛

[quartz shuttle]

Even then, I think it's an unwillingness to dig in and think about things, and an overreliance on tropes

Look at the Bosmer. Their concept was fine, it was well established that they only eat meat and can

't eat plants.

But instead of someone sitting down and thinking "Ok, what kind of society would that create? How do they deal with X problem? How do they support large populations?" etc, they just decided "Nah, we'll just make them Wood Elves who prefer meat"

Instead of taking the concepts they already had, and actually developing them in a logical manner, they just fell back on established tropes at the expense of the subject matter.

[west palm]

I liked that ESO explored that concept in more detail, especially how cultural mores vary and there are some Bosmer who do not partake in the Green Pact.

Though my favorite are - obviously - Khajiit, like that Imperial-born Khajiit coming to Reaper's March to get in touch with her roots and keeps lapsing into first person, or the Orc-raised Khajiit in Orsinium, complete with an Orsimer accent.

[quartz shuttle]

Another example of this is the Deadlands. Instead of looking at their own established lore, and building a realm suited to Dagon's spheres, they just went with 'Generic hell, because Demons'. He's the god of Ambition, Change through Destruction, and Natural Disasters. Why would you expect hell?

[quartz shuttle]

Sure, and in doing so they stripped the Green Pact of any sort of gravitas, and turned it into not wearing white after lent.

[west palm]

I need to get that chapter eventually.

[west palm]

Might make it more mundane, but I kind of liked it being more mundane. High fantasy concepts got tired after LotR became a meme.

Then again, I'm a fan of low fantasy in Sapkowski, Le Guin, or Pratchett's vein.

[quartz shuttle]

Fair. I'm very much on the opposite side of the fence.

I look at something lke "Can't eat meat or use plants" and start thinking about how such a society would functon.

Things like tents and shelters made of hides and bone. Towns made of hollowed out beads of tree sap clinging to the side of Graht Oaks. Burrows under the ground, living amongst the roots.

Things like the Bosmer homes in ESO would be as close to bending the rules as you'd get, weaving living branches together to form shelters and fences (which you can do) without actually harming the plant, but going any further pushes the Pact.

A reliance on animal products for alchemy, alcohol and food. An absence of metals, since you have nothing to burn.

And then the question becomes, how do you show status? Well, if the rules only extend to Valenwood, wealth and power can be shown by those who can buy plants from outside the Green. Imagine a Bosmer noble banquet consisting entirely of imported salads and fruit.

[west palm]

Oh man, this is an amazing idea.

Especially the import note and flaunting your wealth that way.

[plain ibex]

Is... A lack of modesty in public a thing in Imperial Settlements? If not, why do outhouses have doors?

[quartz shuttle]

Looks like a hot tub to me.

[plain ibex]

Irondock is the name of my town by the way.

[weak solstice]

dang, this thing is fancy

[plain ibex]

True, but it's not so fancy if everyone can see you strip off and get in, including visiting Thalmor and passing weirdos.

For example:
Note: this is like the most secluded spot it can go, either there, the grassier but still populated other side, next to town hall, on the crowded main street, or next to one of the city gates.

[coral mantle]

regarding those Oblivion toilet-portals ._ .
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Liminal_Bridges
"the only known transliminal artifact capable of sustained transpontine circumpenetration is the sigil stone."
"Therefore, since both the morpholiths and the daedric sigils required for hyperagonal media cannot be obtained without traffic and commerce with Daedra Lords
Presuming a sigil stone has been acquired, the transliminal mechanic must first prepare the morpholith to receive the daedric sigil. Let the mechanic prepare a chamber, sealed against all daylight and disturbances of the outer air, roofed and walled with white stone and floored with black tiles. All surfaces of this chamber must be ritually purified with a solution of void salts in ether solvent."
"Once inscribed with the Daedra Lord's sigil, the morpholith becomes a true sigil stone, a powerful artifact that collects and stores arcane power -- similar in many respects to a charged soul gem, but of a much greater magnitude. And it is this sigil stone that is required to provide the tremendous arcane power necessary to sustain the enchantment that supports the transpontine circumpenetration of the limen"
Portal to Oblivion isn't just a spell, it's super expensive and requires deals with daedra..

I mean, what might look mundane on the surface has bat crap craziness behind it

[timber bough]

Some people are into that, I suppose

[plain ibex]

Maybe they are (I'm not if you could tell), but why? Is this down to bad design or an in-lore reason?

[timber bough]

I don't recall any public baths in Oblivion, so that lore blurb is certainly something new

That being said I doubt there's a specific lore reason, it's probably just a design overlook

[plain ibex]

(They really should add interiors to the Towns...)

If anyone wants one of those baths, just log on.

[sand flume]

any way to justify the existence of stamina necromancers in ESO?

how does raising the dead with stamina work

[timber bough]

gameplay

[sand flume]

so no

[weak solstice]

flex on the skeleton

[sand flume]

i just want my character to be lore friendly

[weak solstice]

aren't all the "raise the dead" spells magicka?

oh, actually not

[west palm]

You tap into your lifeforce, not the magicka.

Which means you can eat like a pig and still lose weight, because this branch of magic ain't cheap.

[timber bough]

Alternatively you perform a sensual dance to the dead which somehow reawakens them

[west palm]

The power of cute.

[sand flume]

is that an actual lore explanation? or headcanon

[timber bough]

None I'm aware of

[sand flume]

fair

[coral mantle]

i play my ESO sorc unarmed \o/ pure magica caster, mostly shock spells

[sand flume]

ig just have to claim hes a battlemage of sort using both magicka and stamina, despite not actually investing a single point into magicka

[coral mantle]

of course necromancers in lore use magicka *- * they change reality with their will, it's not some working out

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_Necromancy

and some scienc-ey stuff https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Practical_Necromancy

[plain ibex]

Whenever I see \o/ I think of the "Praise the Sun" stance in the Souls series.

[coral mantle]

umm, yes, it might be that, plus some earth hugging

[west palm]

It's what comes to mind. 🙂

[sand flume]

[hardy quarry]

Dark Ages definitely exist, but the enlightenment framing of it was absurd

Pretty much any population bottleneck gives you a dark age

[hardy quarry]

The same arguments were actually made by colonials against people with little resources, and it's not that there is never truth in that. The real answer is that it is more complex. I don't know about taking the fertile Cyrodiil as a fair example of something to compare Skyrim and the Nords to.

[hardy quarry]

There's references to it but poor implementation in the games.

[hardy quarry]

And the irony of course is that Sword and Sorcery was incredibly inventive and did new stuff all the time. Sword and Sorcery is largely what gave us magitek

People think Sword and Sorcery just means knights in armor but pretty much most weird fantasy fiction, including stuff that Kurt and MK have read, are Sword and Sorcery.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah, it unfortunately kinda got pigeonholed into a particular type of sword and sorcery

[hardy quarry]

Ted actually isn't a big Sword and Sorcery guy at all. I think this is being inferred because Sword and Sorcery is being associated with being something boring. Ted has a degree in British Literature and a fondness for Alexandre Dumas

And even Todd likes weird sword and sorcery fiction, going by his love for Dune, which has many sword and sorc elements

The issue is actually fans. It turns out that a lot of people won't try things that aren't medieval fantasy

And getting to know normal people and what they play Skyrim for, that's actually a big part of it

For a lot of people they think they're doing "some viking fantasy" and don't see much further than that

And if you give them something really weird, they kind of turn their nose up at it. It's just like food actually.

Most people are not adventurous when it comes to food, preferring instead to eat things that are familiar to them. It doesn't mean they want to eat the same things everyday.

Ideally Bethesda will strike some kind of a balance here. They need some weirdness to define themselves but some normalcy or they won't have a franchise anymore

And I sort of think what needs to happen is that they lean into their weird Tamriel aesthetic more, where the weird is actually mundane.

So in Ted's case, having spoken to him, most of his fantasy interests came from Lord of the Rings

And he seems to be one of the tabletop crowd from back in the day that thought that D&D was more Lord of the Rings than anything

There's been conversations and interviews where he points that LOTR is basically what all fantasy games were, which is untrue

[quartz shuttle]

Thats all fair

[hardy quarry]

I tend to think that's a bit of an unawareness regarding Sword & Sorc, which is pretty believable considering that there is a genuine dark age surrounding that genre

[quartz shuttle]

Just another reason for me tk hate notmal people

[hardy quarry]

Yeah I mean, what the TES fans that like this stuff need to know how to do is calmly convince people why this other stuff is better

And you're only going to do that if you start from a position of your commonalities with those people

There's been a lot of general snobbishness over the years regarding this. People would actually rather be right than have things be better.

[quartz shuttle]

Oh, i agree there.

[hardy quarry]

And not treat people who disagree with them like actual people

The "normies" do deserve their piece of the pie

[split iris]

I meant not to make such dark commentary. It is indeed complex no doubt about it. And it is quite clear that the soil would be much more fertile in Cyrodiil than Skyrim yes. Again, I am not calling the Nords "uncultures, unimaginative, lazy, not advanced" or what have you. Look at the Nords specifically, I think I am not alone to say that they aren't one to go into Dwemer ruins and re purpose their tools to make tractors. It's just not what they as a whole feel the need to put their efforts into. The Nords are open to change, lest you freeze your mind, and yet at the same paradoxically rather conservative by the 4th Era. And with that, they are more likely to develop methods to farm in the cold and use their reliable fertility rituals than to meddle with the tools of their ancestral enemies.

[hardy quarry]

But there needs to be something that strikes a balance

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah. And some major members of the lore comminity have really been guilty of that

[hardy quarry]

And tbh I consider the core fans to be people like us. I think Bethesda needs to listen and appeal to us more.

[brave shoal]

You bully him by showing off how stronger you are and how stupid he is remaining dead. it make the skeleton rage and rise up (200% effectiveness on nord's skeleton)

[hardy quarry]

But I do think a little kindness and acceptance of the normies goes a long way

[quartz shuttle]

And that's why i think they need dedicated writers

[hardy quarry]

Survival and subsistence cultures lead to that, is what I was trying to get at. Wasn't trying to imply that you meant things in a colonial sense, mostly wanted to offer a shock through the contrast so that you could see the same argument in a different lens

I think the Nords are actually incredibly industrious, but not likely to spend much time on things they don't see the immediate use of

And that's because they don't have the time or resources to do so. Rich Imperialized cities do

[quartz shuttle]

Because you can ground the spectacular, if you put the thought into it. If you create somethjng exotic and fascinating and wonderous, but make it so it logically flows and you can easily understand why A means B

[hardy quarry]

EXACTLY 🙂

And that's the real aesthetic of what TES is, in my mind.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah

[hardy quarry]

You can really see it in the art of Adamowicz, where he gave bears the features of Ice Age sloths

He's taking something that is actually pretty normal in one area, but is now made weird and out of place by putting it somewhere else

Weird Tamriel really oozed off of that guy's pages

[quartz shuttle]

Oh! Speaking of Art...wild tangent here, but has anyone seen the artist Kokomiko's take on TES elves?

[hardy quarry]

I think a lot of Bethesda likes designing things a little weird, but would need to be convinced through the internet zeitgeist that weirder things are doable

They want to have jobs at the day.

And what I'm seeing with Skyrim at least is that they're testing the waters and getting their toes wet. Trying to see where the balance should be

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah, to an extent i can see that

Glow in the dark wildlife in Dawnguard, for instance

[hardy quarry]

Oblivion has basically been subtly acknowledged as a mistake at this point

They'll never say that flat out, but they've basically abandoned almost everything about it

[quartz shuttle]

With good cause, IMO

[hardy quarry]

Oh yeah absolutely. TES4 was a betrayal in a lot of ways

MK went so far as to suggest on TIL that the jungles were coming back, right before TES5 dropped

[quartz shuttle]

But it also brought a lot of people into the franchjse, so i can't totally hate it

[hardy quarry]

And rather than literally being the jungles coming back, I think he was alluding to the idea that most of the older Tamriel from before TES4 was coming back

And with TES5 it becomes apparent that they want to keep their identity but also want normies to buy their game

And tbh I'm hoping the success of TES5 convinces them to lean a bit more into the weirder stuff

[coral mantle]

Cydoriil parts you see and deal with in ESO are pretty much the same as TES4, no? cultures and social classes, not only architecture and stuff

[hardy quarry]

Blades actually has quite a lot of well written lore in its fine print

Much more than most of TES5, proportionately

[coral mantle]

Leyawiin in latest ESO expansion is only different by some byzantic drawings on walls

[hardy quarry]

I at least like the cities and towns of TES4

ESO isn't done by Bethesda

[coral mantle]

ESO writers consult with BGS

[hardy quarry]

I don't think Bethesda wants to entirely disown it, just shy away from the way it presented lore

[hardy quarry]

Sure

But Bethesda can't control every aspect of what they do

That's just how the business world works

So someone comes to you and asks you what is acceptable to do in a game, and you keep telling them for weeks that nothing they do is going to work, they'll escalate on you

And then you get pulled in a meeting by your boss who is asking why you are holding everything up

And then you are forced to resolve it and things continue as normal

So what you do instead is focus on the big things that are problems that said group can't touch, and kind of cordon that off from what they can touch

And you have people show up to get approval from you, but you also have to be mindful of the currency of that approval

You have that currency so long as you are a useful approving body

Todd has actually said that he doesn't like MMOs back in the day

So I get the feeling ESO wasn't his first choice for a spinoff

[coral mantle]

i was trying to argue about this line "Oblivion has basically been subtly acknowledged as a mistake at this point
[10:09 PM]
They'll never say that flat out, but they've basically abandoned almost everything about it"
but sure, whatever

[hardy quarry]

Oh

Yeah I mean, the actual city architecture is probably here to stay

I meant stuff like Oblivion being literal hell

[coral mantle]

if they did decide Oblivion is a mistake, why Imperials remain the same in ESO over and over?

and that hell part stays as well

[hardy quarry]

Because ESO exists to sell nostalgia and its whole model is changing nothing at all

[coral mantle]

oh yeah, that they do well \o/

[hardy quarry]

It's literally redoing the plot of TES4

It's unoriginal in its purpose, and I think originally it probably didn't have much intention to be too lore pertinent

The command structure of ZOS seemed genuinely baffled that people were so upset about little lore details

And then they flipped that and tossed the word lore on everything and paid it some lip service, while changing very little of the basic idea of reselling stuff you've already been sold

So take it all with a grain of salt

I know I sound really cynical here, and I'm not trying to say that ESO has no value in its presentation

This is more or less what I think is happening there though

I'm not certain I want to use ESO's design decisions to reflect on Bethesda

Some of it actually could, don't get me wrong, but that's not the first conclusion I'm going to make until I see it demonstrated otherwise

I need to redig it up, but there's some old bit where Schick half-joked that none of TES is canon except ESO

And it was definitely a joke, but I think part of the subtle implication was that you weren't supposed to take any of it seriously

And then people got so mad that they had to do so for their business model to work

[quartz shuttle]

Anyway, my previous tangent, and lore related

There was (i think she's gone dark) an artist on Deviant Art some years ago that did some pieces of TES Elves, using the Skyrim aesthetic.

Basically, sharp features, heavy and drawn brow structure, etc

https://i.imgur.com/6mCfaMw.jpeg

https://64.media.tumblr.com/2674aa007e4fc711e25d2dc618ea52c7/tumblr_mgtiahgsMO1r3e7wgo1_1280.jpg

They are my go-to in showing that the style of Elf in Skyrim isn't unattractive, it's just the art execution in Skyrim it's self that's the problem

[hardy quarry]

That's pretty legit

I don't actually find them unattractive in TES5 tbh

I have a thing for orc women too

[quartz shuttle]

I don't either, but everything in Skyrim is filled with a layer of grime that i know doesn

t appeal to many. Jenassa and Breylina are quite fetching, i think.

[hardy quarry]

People's faces are a bit jank in TES5 anyways

[quartz shuttle]

Usually, yeah

[brave shoal]

i agree, in skyrim argonian where abominations to me, in eso, i actually like them and main one

[vast swan]

I think a green pact means any green period not from anywhere but who really knows

[pastel sorrel]

the Green Pact only extends to Valenwood, that's already established

It's even a specific point brought up by Bosmer outside of Valenwood being able to enjoy eating salads without worry

[plain ibex]

They get worse in Blades, poor Wood Elf looks like he has every disease, has witnessed everyone he held dear die violently all at once and is suffering from malnutrition.

[west palm]

I agree that ESO is at its best when it has to generate original content. Elsweyr and Dragonhold cone to mind.

(He said, showing no bias at all)

[timber bough]

In my experience ESO lore has gotten better the farther it was made from release

[hardy quarry]

Amazing

[hardy quarry]

Vampire civilizations

That's the big I'm struggling to get over right now

[timber bough]

Which DLC added that? The Skyrim one?

Admittedly I stopped playing around after Morrowind released

[dusky scaffold]

What's wrong with civilized vampires?

[hardy quarry]

The problem is that it's seemingly an actual metropolis beneath blackreach and is a civilization with its own material culture

The absurdity of hiding something like that and trying to raise numbers to city levels when you can't reproduce, and all while never being discovered

You can sorta reproduce but you get what I mean

[timber bough]

Vampire lore in TES is generally rather weak

[hardy quarry]

Vamps lack a lot of the biological drives to form an entire flowering culture to do something like that. It gives me psychic damage

One of my issues with it is that BGS seems to try to design things that feel grounded

That's TES as they've established it

ZOS doesn't really do that. Sometimes they make really good stuff either way

[dusky scaffold]

there is less need to reproduce if you don't dwindle

[hardy quarry]

Yeah but why would you make a lot of cultural art if you don't need to create.

A lot of that stuff is rooted in the human instinct to breed

[timber bough]

That's an extremely simplified understanding of culture

[hardy quarry]

It doesn't feel like they went "this is what a civilization would act like if it was made by vampires." It feels like they just wholesale swapped the humies for them

[hardy quarry]

That was kind of the point of saying it

[timber bough]

Yeah and it's wrong through that simplification, you don't need to breed to create, learn or unlearn cultures

[hardy quarry]

Well back in the day, some caveman got laid because he made pretty art

[timber bough]

Vampires getting the numbers to form their own actual civilizations is unlikely but it's entirely possible for them to form their own culture and habits over time

[hardy quarry]

Underneath Blackreach and hidden from everyone else while also having something that proves that the khajiit religion is the most correct in Tamriel ever?

Idk I think it wasn't very carefully considered as writing to put it mildly

[timber bough]

That part is nonsensical, yes, but it doesn't automatically exclude them forming their own habits and such

[hardy quarry]

Well forming their own habits would be expected

[timber bough]

That being said it seems Zeni simply doesn't care much for highly explained and thought out backdrops, they simply want to provide the players interesting scenarios and factions and that's fair enough on its own

[hardy quarry]

And it's fair if I think that's terrible and not what TES is about as well

Like we don't gotta agree

It's refreshing actually that we're actually discussing the same thing instead of talking past each other

[timber bough]

You're entirely entitled to your opinions of course, we all are, but this is more of a matter of artistic/design direction and given a lot of the things that are present in TES already, I think it's not that drastically weird. I don't care much about ESO lore since it's in a very isolated period anyway, so 🤷‍♂️

[hardy quarry]

We're seeing the same design philosophy and I just don't like it

And if I'm coming across as too ragey I'll tone it down.

[timber bough]

You aren't at all, don't worry

[topaz dome]

I agree with moyme. As far as I'm concerned this is a constructive and interesting debate. I've seen genuine "ragey" in the Fallout 76 forums and, believe me, this isn't even close. 😀

[hardy quarry]

I had a rough day yesterday and feel ragey so I just wanted to make sure it wasn't leaking out

I was back on BGSF in the old days and one of the things I'm proud of with the old lore forum was the civility

[timber bough]

Ah I used to be on it a long while ago too, it was certainly an interesting place to be

[hardy quarry]

Yeah it was never the same after the exodus to reddit. A lot of older peeps have come since this place opened and probably still more will

@topaz dome I know he's retired but I think of reaching out to Rohugh all the time to see if he wants to come over

[quartz shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/angry-warrior-chaos-blood-gif-13932012

Did someone say rage?

[plain ibex]

You mean hit mobile game rage shadow legends?

[quartz shuttle]

I walked into that

[keen briar]

Hearts for the heart god, void for the void ghost

[hardy quarry]

o hai

[keen briar]

Ello ello

[quartz shuttle]

gasp is that an imposter, or the real deal?

[keen briar]

Real deal, I just like reading through the conversations

[quartz shuttle]

Well, i am glad to see you well none the less. Still remember being worred when you took that hiatus a few years back.

[keen briar]

I'm still pretty here and there nowadays, but every once and awhile I break through the matrix

Also there was trash talking of vampires, and that is the best way to summon me

Nice to see you though, Lach

[quartz shuttle]

Speaking of Vampires, i know it wasn't very popular in Skyrim, but i like hte idea of Vampires becomming more and more powerful the less they feed

[split iris]

As do I. Shame ESO changed that.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah. The whole idea fits so well with Bal's twisted sense of humour

[split iris]

Bal has an aspect of "self control" funny enough. He can be a God of AA and with that, testing the willpower of his vampires would fit well. The less they give in, the more powerful they become.

[quartz shuttle]

You either prey on your fellows to maintain some facade of humanity, or submit and give up your humanity for power

Either way, Bal wins

[split iris]

Quite so for a God of Schemes

[quartz shuttle]

Though i will admit, i've always loved hte more bestial take on Vampires in general. The idea that they're a barely contained beast wrapped in the facade of civilisation

Probably why i love Vampire Counts to much in Warhammer

[split iris]

Yea being a werecreature and vamp in TES is way more of a curse than blessing. It should be gruelling and full of suffering. And the weird cultists who go for it with purpose revel in said suffering.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah

[split iris]

I also enjoyed the OG concept of vampires being somewhat of a "shadow self" of the darker aspects of the culture they embody. The strains of High Rock, plentiful and broken up, like the Bretnic Houses and regions themselves. Three strains of Vvardenfell at each others necks much like their Houses. Tricky, cunning nobility of Cyrodiil much like their Nibens. Frost dwelling nomadic barbarian vampires as the extremes of the Nords, etc etc.
But I guess we are getting Underworld now due to Dawnguard over and over again.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah. I think it's part of a general writing problem at Bethesda

The lack of, you know, actual writers, means no on can take the time to delve into interesting concepts and flesh them out enough to make them grounded and engaging. So they keep resorting to tropes instead

[hardy quarry]

That was started with the Clavicus Vile vampires in TES4, because vampirism was about blending into the civil society of Cyrodiil. Clavicus Vile who is highly associated with false appearances flipped how that strain of vampirism worked

Idk why it is the way it is in Skyrim. Though vampirism does still functionally different in Skyrim and it is a different strain.

And ESO does things the way they do because.....ESO

[split iris]

I think one simple way to make any new writing well done is simply to make it culturally relevant. And honestly that just takes a wee bit more effort. It is easily done yet makes the world ever more realistic. But now, every vampire is the same. Every Daedric prince looks, acts, speaks, the same. Werewolves all around. I mean, you do see ESO trying never the less. Deity depictions of Elsweyr, totemic spirits of the Reach. But still needs a bit more oomph than a simply rename and retexture.

[hardy quarry]

Vampires had a better future design-wise when it was more Vampire: The Masquerade and less "Nosferatu"

[quartz shuttle]

You can have both though

[hardy quarry]

I'm talking about Dracula with literal bats

[quartz shuttle]

Fair

[hardy quarry]

You can have both but generic vamps does not feel good

Like what, we gon' start having the Tamriel version of crosses to drive them off?

Part of the Tamriel aesthetic is taking these ideas and using them in different or new ways. They did so with lichdom. Contrary to popular opinion, lichdom is actually well integrated into the TES setting

The VTM rip that started with TES2 and kind of continued into later games was that there'd be all these different species of vamps

[split iris]

"In the 5th Era, the Temple of Arkay and Stendarr went through a reform to create a symbol which became the bane of all vampires: the Cross of Aetherius..."

[hardy quarry]

And that's sort of why they have so many parents. We know that in TES4, Clavicus seems to have made that strain his

And Vaermina may or may not have done something similar at some point

And on top of that, until Dawnguard the general structure of vamps conformed to the setting

The vamps of TES2 were supposed to high politics socialites, essentially running the actual Masquerade beneath the feet of the Breton nobility and controlling vast amounts of Iliac Bay politics

The vamps of TES3 followed a fighter/mage/thief format and the House structure

The vamps of TES4 were a single clan that had conquered all others and made them submit. Or had them exterminated. The Imperialist vamps

[split iris]

Very much how I saw TES in general. It looks generic fantasy on the surface with elves, vampires, orcs, and dwarfs, but always with a twist beneath.

[hardy quarry]

And in TES5, vamps are these clan-like monster families operating in caves and hunting people like the barbarians of old

TES5 just didn't give it much attention, which was a mistake

Dawnguard comes in and messes all of this up. It's not like vamp lore was amazing before, but it wasn't terrible

[split iris]

Pretty much

[keen briar]

Obligatory dawnguard sucks

[hardy quarry]

I think vamps can still be good, they just need to be rewritten and presented in a better way

I thought it was an insane miss that they brought out the vampire lord and didn't make it essentially the VTM Patriarch

It could have been that vampire lords are the ones that start new strains of bloodlines

[quartz shuttle]

I don't think Dawnguard sucks... But it was definitely lacking in it's overal intigration into the setting

[hardy quarry]

And then that increases replay value right? It means every game you know if you play a vampire lord, the powers will be a bit different

And they had a good setup in the books with Skyrim's ice vampires

Would have been dope, and interesting. Now we'll never get that

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah. Treating the Lords as more like Neferata's first-generation of Vampires who drank straight from the chalace

[hardy quarry]

I hope you're listening Bethesda, lol

[split iris]

How cool and creepy it could have been. You are simply wandering the frozen wastes and suddenly, these ice-demon viking-vamps pop out of the ice and storm at you.

But we got two dragons instead

[hardy quarry]

Could even have brought out some ancient atmorans this way too

[split iris]

Very much so

[hardy quarry]

Dude imagine if Harkon had been an Atmoran conqueror that just hated elves and wanted to stab the sun in the face for an additional reason 🤣

[keen briar]

Harkon is ancient atmoran

😩

[hardy quarry]

Is...he? He doesn't seem like one. Or look like one.

[split iris]

Any modders in the chat 👀

[hardy quarry]

He acts like a Breton.

[keen briar]

I'm just messing around. Its intentionally left unclear.

not like the Dawnguard timeline of historic events makes any sense anyways

[hardy quarry]

That dragon fight is cool, but that thing really angered me. There was this attitude that proper Volkihar were not doable because it would not be mechanically realistic

And then you get dragons that do the exact thing that everyone said couldn't be done and everyone claps

[split iris]

Oh i am not accepting the "game limitations" excuse at all for ice-swimming vamps.

[quartz shuttle]

In the EXACT SAME EXPANSION no less.

[hardy quarry]

golf claps

[quartz shuttle]

Like, if it was one expansion later, after they had figured it out, i could excuse it. But IT'S IN DAWNGUARD

[keen briar]

There weren't ice vampires in Underworld though, I fail to see the problem

[quartz shuttle]

And even then, it's not like having Vampires go incorporial and able to phase through certian environmental objects is mechanically complex.

[split iris]

Wardenplz

[hardy quarry]

Half the devs probably don't even know there was a Masquerade in TES2 😩

[split iris]

Yea I basically saw them phasing through instead of breaking ice but like, having a small particle effect they could have borrowed from the ice spells in game wasnt a big ask

[hardy quarry]

I'd forgive it if they could just get back on track with the design

What's done is done, at this point.

[keen briar]

Funny thing is you could have had the Volkihar do ice things in ESO but they got put on a bus for Greymoor

[hardy quarry]

Yeah I mean, I don't put any faith in ZOS at this point. I'm pretty sure Bethesda at least cares about making the world feel properly lived in

"Live a life in another world" is the actual motto of TES

[keen briar]

Fair. It is a missed opportunity though. Whether it was because they were told not to mess with Dawnguard or because the timeline of Dawnguard confused them too and they decided not to dive into it, could have fixed some of the lore Volkihar abilities since other creatures have similiar powers in the mmo.

[hardy quarry]

I gotta say though, MK was completely wrong about liches. Bethesda has done a fantastic job with them.

[keen briar]

Actually, it's even weirder now that I think about it. Because one of the Fighter's Guild skills is a glock "crossbow" of Dawnguard design...which implies they exist during the time period but have no presence at all during Greymoor.

Kind of a story disconnect there.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah. As much as i like some things ESO has done, it ultimately suffers from MMO problems

The need for constantly new story content to keep the game relevant, and the inability to really take the time to spread out events and properly integrate them, makes it's lore messy.

Combined with the need to reference familiar franchise events, characters and ideas, well...

[keen briar]

A lot of the issues definitely stem from how MMOs tell their stories, yeah.

My largest gripe is mostly the clinging to plot threads the franchise has already done, as I can't really sink into a new adventure that I feel like is just a rehash of something I've already played through. And that's the majority of most of the main storylines.

[split iris]

Something Daedric. Something Magical Battery Power Source. Some obvious betrayal. And waifu/husbando guide. We can write up a new Monomyth.

[keen briar]

That's the reason why a lot of people like Wrothgar. It stands as very compelling but standalone story that doesn't try to get too big for its britches.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah

[split iris]

Wrothgar is in my top three. It was very good.

[keen briar]

The base game, Imperial City, and now Blackwood feel like a recreation of Oblivion with some minor to moderate changes.

Greymoor was just a prequel-sequel to Dawnguard (which already kind of spelled its doom to a few); Markarth is really good, however, and I personally feel like a character like Rada al-Saran got wasted in that kind of plotline.

[split iris]

The character himself was great. The main plot still blerg. The Reach stuff and side stories were rather well done however.

[keen briar]

Ancient Yokudan who 1v1 a literal god to a standstill and you put him in a vampire movie plot

[dusky scaffold]

well, the actual blackwood storyline was very different from Oblivion's...

[split iris]

I finished it yesterday and honestly, it was still meh to me. I havent dont much of the sidequests tho.

[dusky scaffold]

sure, there was Dagon, and sure, he wanted to make Nirn his own, but how he did it was a completely different thing

[coral mantle]

um, please don't spoil Blackwood, please? im reading you and still havent finished that

[split iris]

Yes, no spoilerinos

[dusky scaffold]

I found the questline okay
the Dark Heart of Skyrim storyline was meh, yes, but it was also different from Dawnguard

just because the threat is the same doesn't mean it's a story rehash

[quartz shuttle]

Another big problem with the MMO format compared to the Single Player Games, is the lack of focus.

Like, what does Dark Heart of Skyrim have to do with, you now... Skyrim? Since when were Redguard Vampire Kings a big part of Skyrim and Nord history and identity?

[split iris]

Exactly this, thank you. It all goes back to having random events with no cultural relevancy

[keen briar]

where did an entire vampire civilization come from in blackreach

[quartz shuttle]

If we have a Hammerfell game, it want it to focus on the Redguard. Their history, their mythology, their identity.

[dusky scaffold]

from the top, duh

[keen briar]

ah, from the great Whitereach in the sky

[quartz shuttle]

Like, and just spitballing here... Have the main antagonist be the Hoonding. The Make Way God, whose presence signals the destruction of the Yokudan's home and forces them to move elsewhere.

[dusky scaffold]

Ah, yes, the Huhnding

[split iris]

HoonDingerine coming to TES 6 near you

[keen briar]

Incarnation 3: The Great Hunding

[quartz shuttle]

Lol

I expect the PC to be the Hoonding, but i'd rather they flip it on it's head and make the 'Culture Hero' the enemy

[keen briar]

Spirit sword mechanic. Absorb fighting techniques from ancient Ansei and customize your lightsaber

Elder Scrolls 6 really makes you feel like a Sith Lord

[quartz shuttle]

Make the Hoonding consumptive and destructive, a force that appears and destroys, forcing the Yokudans to move on for greener pastures elsewhere.

[split iris]

Off to the deserts of Akavir

[keen briar]

Ah yes, to the Skaven

The True endgame enemy of the franchise

[quartz shuttle]

Lol

https://www.pcgamesn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/total-war-warhammer-2-skaven-guide-900x506.jpg

Kill-Kill Elf Things!

[coral mantle]

i like how discord has cut elves ears emote

[keen briar]

And thus was Elder Scrolls 40k born

[quartz shuttle]

But my overall point is that the single player games allow you to focus on the province, the people, and the culture involved, whereas the MMO doesn't really allow the same thing.

[keen briar]

True. ESO generally has too much going on its content expansions to really give the places it goes full attention. There's always some world ending plot or the other that takes center stage.

[quartz shuttle]

That said, just because the single player games allow you to do that, doesn't mean that's what Bethesda will do cough Oblivion cough

[coral mantle]

ZOSes said it a couple years ago, like Chapters go end-of-the-world, and DLCs are more personal stories? still works like that

[keen briar]

Not really. The DLCs generally supplement the Chapters due to the Yearly content model

Greymoor has the End of the World Plot, but the 2 Dungeon DLCs prelude the end of the world plot/focus on separate aspects of it, and then the PvE DLC at end of the year serves as an epilogue to the whole shebang

Same thing with Elsweyr

And presumably the same thing with Blackwood

[coral mantle]

um, okay, what i 'quoted' is a bit dated, like Summerset/Murkmire times. Changed after that, yeah

[keen briar]

I wouldn't really call Dragonhold or Markarth personal stories due to that

[dusky scaffold]

well, only the summerset/murkmire year xD

[coral mantle]

Morrowind year had CLockwork dlc? oh well

[dusky scaffold]

previously, clockwork city was part of the daedric triad arch together with morrowind and summerset, and after that they started the year of the dragon

and before chapters, they did mostly factions

[keen briar]

Is the Battlespire DLC going to be the "oooh Elden Ring" of eso

[dusky scaffold]

the what? the what?

[quartz shuttle]

I think it was more a rhetorical question

Not an actual indication of what is coming

[keen briar]

Oooh elden ring

[split iris]

Battlespire DLC is obviously gonna be a dungeon

[quartz shuttle]

And Vehk's brazen balls, i hope not. I made the mistake of watching the Elden Ring trailer, and that is 3 minutes of my life i will never get back

[keen briar]

Time for our Halo/Elder Scrolls crossover

[hardy quarry]

Tbf this is the lore channel. If people request no spoilers just use spoiler tags

[keen briar]

I'll just have to bug Sarthes or Floofs to give me a detailed document of the storyline that Baldur's Gate didn't do first

This e3 beat kind of fire tho

[split iris]

Yea spoiler tags are fine; it is only courteous to pay extra care to the most recent game information, tis all.

[dusky scaffold]

as if I knew baldur's gate...

[coarse edge]

Cheesey noodles should be a thing in the lore

[dusky scaffold]

find me proof they aren't

[coarse edge]

I mean fax

[keen briar]

What do you mean by cheesey noodles

[split iris]

They are a ritualistic dish for the Niben cult of the Cheesy One, Shegorius

[coarse edge]

noodles that are cheesy

[dusky scaffold]

faxes aren't canon

[keen briar]

Like macaroni and cheese cheesy or tortellini cheesy or "I'm a broke young adult and I'm throwing ramen, Kraft, and salami in a pot for breakfast" cheesy

[coarse edge]

why can't it be both?

[keen briar]

Ah, so gumbo cheesy

[coarse edge]

Exactly

Why hasn't tod put them in game somewhere, seems like a solid addition

Molag could have some secret obsession, I see a golden opportunity

[plain ibex]

More importantly, why are there no traces of it 1-2 Eras later?

[dusky scaffold]

Maybe there are; we just haven't been to that place

[plain ibex]

We went to Blackreach in 5, unless you mean it was much larger but has caved in on that side...

[dusky scaffold]

We only went to a portion of blackreach in TES5
It's equivalent to what ESO calls the Mzark Cavern (plus about that same area north of it)
The whole Greymoor Cavern and Arknzand Cavern area added by ESO Greymoor and Markarth, respectively, were not shown in TES5

[coral mantle]

also, i dont reacall volkihar clan in ESO? some sorta clan war could have happened, volkihar the winner

[dusky scaffold]

The volkihar kept out of the whole gray host story

[weak solstice]

Some people from the Volkihar clan appeared in base game Eastmarch in a quest, but there wasn't much on them

[pastel sorrel]

The Volkihar are mentioned as keeping out of the mess going on, as i recall.

[coral mantle]

phew, then Serana is all right <3

[plain ibex]

Of course she is, she's literally unkillable as an Essential NPC.

[solid nymph]

wasn't she trapped like, back in the first era or something?

[plain ibex]

Being stuck in a coffin for literal eras notwithstanding.

But yeah, that ought to cause some mental issues and most likely claustrophobia.

[knotty socket]

Exactly when she got entombed is often debated.

[quartz shuttle]

Largely because of a lack of consideration on the part of the not-writing-team.

They've outright stated the intent was for it to be during the Interregnum.

[knotty socket]

@quartz shuttle Cool, I hadn't seen that there was offical comment on it since. Maybe it's on the table for ESO then at some point.

[dusky scaffold]

late reply, but this is an overlay of skyrim's blackreach map with ESO's (during Greymoor PTS, so no Markarth addition yet. Still, it serves well for scale=
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/401127998981406750/704480392744534026/unknown.png

closeup of the Skyrim map and its ESO counterpart

[simple spindle]

I'm pretty sure if Black Reach "caved in", half of Skyrim would just disappear lol

It's fcking massive

[serene quartz]

this is real lore

[slender latch]

Wouldn't it be great if the creation club added additional areas to blackreach?

I actually have a theory on the collapse of Winterhold related to this. It collapsed due to a section of blackreach collapsing under it.

[uncut hatch]

Eh, doubt it. There's no indication that Blackreach really extended all the way to Winterhold, and there's a number of other, more plausible theories surrounding the collapse.

Though we admittedly know so little about it, your guess is as good as any.

[abstract ibex]

are you basing your guess on anything? or is it just a guess?

[sand flume]

blackreach collapsed

winterhold collapsed

its a guess but its not hard to believe

[hardy quarry]

Chicago fire happened, New York ferry fire happened a few decades later. Coincidence?????

[split iris]

Crystal Tower Conspiracies all over again

[sand flume]

do we know when blackreach collapsed?

or what caused it?

[plain ibex]

What even is Lotus Extract? What kind of Lotus is it extracted from? The only Lotuses I know of are either totally safe to consume or affect someone psychoactively, not exactly poison material.

[dusky scaffold]

Blackreach collapsed?

[sand flume]

well "caved in"

hence its so much larger in ESO than in skyrim

[dusky scaffold]

Maybe it's just a connection are that shut down
We have no idea wether the whole cave system beyond western skyrim still exists

[sand flume]

tru

[uncut hatch]

I would think that if Blackreach collapsed, so would all of Skyrim.

Then again, Skyrim is so riddled with caves it's like swiss cheese. It's a miracle it hasn't turned into a giant sinkhole.

[dusky scaffold]

There's a loading screen referencing that...

[west palm]

It could also be a freak volcanic eruption

[uncut hatch]

so thats why land masses are so easy to sink into the ocean on nirn

[quartz shuttle]

Caves are just rot in the Earthbones. Why do you think its so crucial Alduin reset the clock now and then?

Nirn is going to just rot away

[dusky scaffold]

"According to the "Speluncus Tamrielicum," the reason Nirn is seemingly riddled with natural caverns is that, like a living body, the world is veined with a system of nodes and capillaries that once pulsed with the divine essence of the Aedra who created it."

[quartz shuttle]

Which is a nicer way of "Stitched together from god-corpses"

[keen briar]

No one kills family like Lorkhan

[sand quiver]

Or maybe it’s because Bethesda needed to satisfy a gameplay mechanic

🍍🥝🌶🙈🥝

[slender latch]

No gameplay mechanic related to the quote it’s just a loading screen fluff text

[split iris]

It's one of the many times works of fans has made its way into TES games. A nice wink from the devs to show that they do indeed be watching.
Walk like them till they walk like you.

[quartz shuttle]

Or, kill them and wear their face. No one will ever know.

Did that get dark? I feel like that got dark

https://tenor.com/view/face-off-nicolas-cage-gif-15023880

[proper beacon]

it got fun

[plain ibex]

How did these skeletons get embedded into the cave walls?

[quartz shuttle]

Someome didn't time their Passwall spell very well

[split iris]

Or it can be the...
Earth-Bones

[quartz shuttle]

Hah, love it!

[uncut hatch]

People are buried in the walls of hoover dam.

[quartz shuttle]

Well, yeah. You can't build a great project without the requisite sacrifices. How else are you to appease the gods and set the foundations?

https://tenor.com/view/cuculcan-curiosamente-quetzalcoalt-serpiente-emplumada-mesoamerica-gif-20146616

[rough plinth]

An I in the minority nowadays in thinking that Tiber Septim/Talos/Hjalt ascended to godhood due to being a backstabber with a massive ego and NOT because he did the fusion dance with his bros.

[split iris]

Well having a massive Ego plays a part with CHIM

[quartz shuttle]

No, you are not. His ascention was probably a combination of factors

[rough plinth]

Exactly

[quartz shuttle]

That assumes CHIM equates to Godhood

Using CHIM to know how to acheive Godhood by smashing together 3 shezzarine souls by way of Big Stompy also fits

[simple spindle]

There was no indication there waas more to Blackreach than what we saw in Skyrim either, then BOOM. Underground vampire kingdoms.

[brave shoal]

wait until we meet the under underground werewolves empire under it

[plain ibex]

Shame that keeping out of the moonlight doesn't work with TES werewolves...

[brave shoal]

they probably just stole a dwemer fake moon and hang it on the ceiling /s

[plain ibex]

...Why would they want to be transformed the entire time? Those hands can't grip doors or anything. They're kinda pathetic compared to other werewolves I've seen.

[brave shoal]

its dwemer moon, you activate it on demand, human all day, then some pesky adventurer come barging in yelling about where the loot and xp, turn it on

[turbid dew]

Is this a good place to repatriate my misguided Stormcloak brothers and sisters? The Empire is ordained by Akatosh, you know!

[brave shoal]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6e/0b/ae/6e0bae31142e687fbd367c1d9a34c49e.jpg

[turbid dew]

Spoken boldly for an Elf in crusading distance.

[brave shoal]

throw spell around

[gritty scarab]

In my head cannon the lusty argonian maid was real and became the leader of black marsh

[plain ibex]

Did she meet Crassius Curio? He wrote the book and can be enncountered in TES 3.

[dusky scaffold]

except that the story has already been arround during the interregnum...

[plain ibex]

What was the interregnum? I'm too tired to go to the wiki...

[dusky scaffold]

ESO time

after emperor Varen Aquilarios disappeared, and before Tiber Septim founded the Third Empire

[proper ice]

It’s when the empire was rulerless and everyone was vying for the throne including the main 3 factions of the game, and apparently some reach men had it too

[plain ibex]

Wait... How would that even work then? Did the team behind ESO not think about the timeline?

[dusky scaffold]

that was before Varen
Varen was even an ally of the Longhouse Emperors, until Leovic legalized daedra worship

[proper ice]

Ah

[dusky scaffold]

no 😄
well, they claim it was a traditional piece, and Curio just wrote it down or something

[split iris]

Hermaeus Mora juggling in books from the future

[plain ibex]

"Traditional"? Since Crassius is the only naughty book writer in the series I doubt anything thst isn't time travel,

[dusky scaffold]

are you sure he's the only one?
do you have any idea of how many people have lived until that point?

[plain ibex]

His books are the only ones that have survived and nobody else writes that stuff even after he died.

[fervent oar]

I will confirm that there are at least two Crassius' books in ESO as well as the one his wife wrote.

[dusky scaffold]

his wife?

[stark socket]

From what I've read, the Interregnum refers to the four centuries in between the fall of the Second Empire, that is, the murder of Savirien-Chorak, and the rise of Cuhl and Tiber. This starts a bit earlier than all the ESO background stories, and they are part of this epoch, not their beginning.

[plain ibex]

He had a wife? How?

[plain ibex]

I just don't see how such a creep got a wife, one that I don't think even shows up in Morrowind.

[fervent oar]

I have read the books in ESO.

[robust trout]

same way any other creep gets a wife, I presume

[fervent oar]

Search for the Sultry Argonian Bard. I was told that was written by the wife. The person who told me that could have been wrong.

[dusky scaffold]

I don't think anything is known of Ellya Erdain, the author of the Sultry Argonian Bard...

[plain ibex]

Which is it? Are they beginning to grow to the point of being farmable like in Skyrim or are they dying out again like in Oblivion?

[dusky scaffold]

Yes

[dusky scaffold]

As far as i know, blades is slightly before skyrim
It could have been in a time before they were cultivated

[pastel sorrel]

Blades is a couple decades before TES5

[quartz shuttle]

It's just after teh Great War, isn't it?

[uncut hatch]

Why do argonians have feathers?

[robust trout]

I'd imagine because they're closer to raptors than proper lizards?

[dusky scaffold]

because the hist wills it

[split iris]

The correct answer

[plain ibex]

So that's why they had no... Naughty bits and animalistic legs in Morrowind.

[uncut hatch]

tbf only one person knows how to farm them.

[plain ibex]

Why wouldn't they share that knowledge? Don't ones not on the farm regrow too?

[dusky scaffold]

they didn't have what now?

[uncut hatch]

maybe they died before being able to, maybe her sister didn't care to learn how (she finds farming boring already). when does blades take place, btw?

[plain ibex]

Look it up, both them and Khajiit lacked loincloths and were bare like ken dolls but now they do have loincloths implying something's been added.

[dusky scaffold]

maybe they just had no shame

[uncut hatch]

so blades takes place in the 4th era, but in the 180th year. so nirnroots being almost extinct definitely makes sense. also, since the dunmer (i can't remember her name) in skyrim that did grow them...is in skyrim, and blades takes place in cyrodiil, definitely makes more sense. honestly, blades is looking to have some better writing than eso just from this. not sure about the rest of the game since i can't play it.

[quartz shuttle]

Ok, so, structure of the Aurbis then.

So, this is the basic, simplest explanation most people see

[coral mantle]

🍺 they don't have emote for vodka so i'll settle with this

[quartz shuttle]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/22/a3/2e/22a32e8d838dc47521cf770c6c1cb38b.jpg

Now, there is a problem with this, because Oblivion and Aetherius are not finite shells surrounding eachother, but entire dimensional spaces in and of themselves.

Less like layers of an onion, and more like totally different dimensions

[coral mantle]

that totally makes sense. No it doesn't!

[uncut hatch]

It does.

It's a pocket. Just so happens that pocket is a void.

[quartz shuttle]

It's like a TARDIS

The transitions between them are not physical, but rather dimensional. So it's not like entering a room, it's more like traveling to another dimension

[coral mantle]

when it's night in Tamriel and you look in the skies, you see those holes in the 'sphere' of the skies, you see them 'through' Oblivion, riiight?

[quartz shuttle]

Yes

[coral mantle]

bring it, i'm ready. Embarrassed myself enough already

[quartz shuttle]

Those holes are probably still 3 dimensional though

like black-holes, but in reverse

[coral mantle]

That they appear as spherical heavenly bodies is a visual phenomena caused by mortal mental stress. Since each plane(t) is an infinite mass of infinite size, as yet surrounded by the Void of Oblivion, the mortal eye registers them as bubbles within a space.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/cosmology
mortal eyes and imagination it is, then 🔫

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah.

So, like, you can't point a ship in a direction and just fly to Aetherius, no matter what direction you go or how fast

However, if you had the right spell, and enough magical power, you could push through the barrier that is present EVERYWHERE, and enter Aetherius directly

[coral mantle]

pre-school teachers definitely have hard time explaining that to tamrielic children. how come there's no book about it anyway

[quartz shuttle]

It's touched on in a lot of things, mostly dealing with portals and travel to Oblivion

But it's never explicitly spelled out in-game

It's actually a relatively common trope in Sci-fi and Fantasy,i'm a little surprised you hadn't encoutered it before

[keen briar]

As I am a filthy bat elf and the one that commissioned this piece for the project, I much prefer uutak cosmology. Mainly because its smexier:

[quartz shuttle]

You may be slightly biased on that preference 😛

[keen briar]

[coral mantle]

i thought uutak were one guy's crusade <.< first time seeing someone else talking about it.
and the only fantasy stuff i've read were LOTR and Conan actually, so yeah, unfamiliar with the idea

actually should also mention Sapkovski, and Glukhovski, not like it matters

[keen briar]

Shh

[quartz shuttle]

Creation, but i wouldn't say crusade. And yes. *points at @keen briar *

[hardy quarry]

I mean I'd say crusade

IFW and I were quite the crusaders in our time

[quartz shuttle]

Oh man, the bot even checks the language on memes!

[keen briar]

We stormed many walls, like at the Battle of Transciption Error and the Fall of Tosh Raka's Get Out

[quartz shuttle]

The Bot is too stronk

[coral mantle]

you're not saying you two are the umm.. promoters? of that bat island?

okay, why am i surprised, it's TES lore channel

[keen briar]

Me, yes. Him, no.

But we've both done a lot of cool stuff for the community and been around for a long time

[coral mantle]

i remember being confused about bat-elves back in.. 2016 i think? took it for canon, ha-ha

[uncut hatch]

Hey guys

[coral mantle]

hello and thanks for jumping in, much timely

[uncut hatch]

Np

I had a question

Who would win.......

TLD or DoomSlayer

[quartz shuttle]

The Slayer

He literally kills God

[hardy quarry]

KhaleesiSlayer

[keen briar]

The TES setting doesn't really hold a candle to many other fictional worlds

[hardy quarry]

It does for depth I think

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah, but not Power

[keen briar]

Yeah, depth wise yeah. Power wise nah

[hardy quarry]

Oh. Just remembered the context of the situation.

Yeah TES is extreeeemly low-tier when it comes to power ceilings in fictional settings

[keen briar]

Mhm, most matchups with other franchises are just curbstomps.

[keen briar]

Haha, nice

[hardy quarry]

We could reconstruct a bit of a power ceiling in universe though going by one of Schick's comments

Pelinal could solo Sauron in single combat

Though the wounds would probably be fatal or something he said

So you could make a theoretical framework based on "how many Saurons could you kill"

[keen briar]

Since Akatosh pimpslapped Pelinal that means Akatosh is at least stronger than Sauron

[hardy quarry]

"Yoooooo this guy could solo about 1/3 Saurons"

LOTR also has a really low power ceiling so this all checks out

[short hill]

Tom Bombadil could beat Goku in a fight

[hardy quarry]

There was a great who would win thread back in the day about who the weakest person was that could be uncorrupted by the ring and complete the story

Which goes to show how many universes can dunk on LOTR

TES and LOTR being roughly similar enough works well enough for me

Though with Pelinal being slightly better than Sauron, the power ceiling in TES is probably also a bit higher

The answer to that thread btw was Master Roshi

[keen briar]

That actually checks out

Had to think about it for a second

[hardy quarry]

I've yet to see a better answer. It's a good one.

Despite being a perv, the dude is humble enough to be a hermit on an island. He was strong enough to deflect bullets with his bare hand and yet didn't use that for his own gain.

He's powerful enough and humble enough to do it solo

[keen briar]

But Master Roshi outside of a perv is like extremely virtuous and selfless, and despite being incredibly old hasn't turned to evil once in that time span

[hardy quarry]

Yep, he could do it better than Frodo

I remember when Who Would Win was good hahaha

The TES threads usually weren't good on it though

[quartz shuttle]

Warhammer tends to ruin all such threads

[keen briar]

As Warhammer does

Kind of like how OPM, despite being great, ruined the anime what if community.

Goku vs Superman always seemed more like an ongoing joke to me.

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah

I generally avoid 'Who would win' discussions because of some of those absurditoes

[hearty hornet]

I don't log in for a few months and then I see the forums are being discontinued. I am sad now

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah... terrible decision if you ask me. As much as i have enjoyed the chats on here, it's not conducive to the sort of in-depth discourse we could do on a forum

[hearty hornet]

Is stuff stored somewhere? Top of my head, This Many Goblins Left the Cave. Stuff like that

[quartz shuttle]

i think they

have mostly been trying to archive whatever they can

And by They, i mean the Lore Community

[hearty hornet]

It really is a shame. I agree that this style of chat isn't the same as a forum for when it comes to in-depth discussions

I was on the old forum since the Morrowind days. The new forum never really took off, I had hoped that once TES6 would be released it would get a lot of activity

[quartz shuttle]

It's fantastic for casual conversation, but... Charts and bulleted lists and so on? Not so much

I still miss some of the old crew. SkyrimSniper, Glargg, Turija

[hearty hornet]

With two moves and a decade between games many people have moved on. I lost touch with most. I now moderate a large part of the TES subreddits on reddit, but it's not the same

I do recall you and Pseron 🙂

[topaz dome]

Hey, Merari! Long time no see! They are following the same procedure as when the original forum was closed in 2005. It will remain in a read-only state for awhile, then will disappear., just like before. Some pages will undoubtedly be permanently archived over at the Wayback Machine site.

[quartz shuttle]

I recall your portrait more than the name, but i... Am usually terrible with names

Never forget Animal though

[hearty hornet]

I was very active on the old forums, mainly the lore section. I was pretty proud of how my endless commenting got me a patriarch rank. All gone. All gone

sic transit something something

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah. Ah well, humans are adaptable. We change, as needed.

What matters is community.

[hardy quarry]

Well tbf WWW did not generally treat OPM as a serious option. Saitama is a plot device

[hearty hornet]

I suppose the days of chatting with devs are now well and truly over

[hardy quarry]

Yes, they are gone my man :/

[hearty hornet]

That was the best part of the Morrowind days

[quartz shuttle]

I wouldn't necessarily say that. This sort of platform actually makes their engagement easier, if they choose to use it

[hardy quarry]

Nope, I'm in contact with some. They were told to get back in the kitchen

There will not be dev interaction like there used to be

[quartz shuttle]

Oh, i don't actually EXPECT there to be, but the platform it's self would actually facilitate it easier.

[hearty hornet]

What do people who kept up with things think about a possible release date for TES6? 2023?

[quartz shuttle]

2024-2025

[hearty hornet]

Ouch

[quartz shuttle]

Starfield is going to be 2022, and i wouldn't expect another game for at least 2 years after, probably 3-4

[hearty hornet]

I don't have life eternal, my good people at Bethesda. I started playing TES with Daggerfall. There's a good bit of grey in my beard now

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah, actually a conversation we had in General Chat earlier

I am of the mind that it's time to branch off into different studios, focusing on dedicated franchises... but it was an unpopular opinion, to say the least

[hardy quarry]

2024 is too optimistic I think

[hearty hornet]

I guess that as a developer someone wouldn't want to be only developing one game series all their career. I understand that it's more fun to switch franchises.

[hardy quarry]

2025-2026 is what I'd expect

It took 3 years to get Fallout 4 out the door once full production started in 2012

I don't think they'll get TES6 out in 2

[hearty hornet]

But on the other hand, more time has passed between Skyrim and now than between Morrowind and Skyrim

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah. There... is a lot of complexity to game design and marketing, but more than a decade wait between releases?

That kills a lot of interest in a franchise, and hurts it's relevance. It CAN be pulled off, but reliably? eeeeh

[hearty hornet]

One worry I have is that it's now virtually impossible to deliver on expectations. See other games that took a long time to develop. Duke Nukem. And that disaster of a Cyberpunk

[quartz shuttle]

Meanwhile, you've got 3 franchises now all with their own identity and style, don't they deserve the room to grow and develop on their own?

[hearty hornet]

I think there is something to be said for having franchises develop seperately

Instead of sequentially

[keen briar]

2026 to 2030, easily

[coral mantle]

they outsource a lot. Don't know about Skyrim and before days, but 76 and F4 dlc, lot of stuff were dine externally. that could speed up a bit

[keen briar]

Being hopeful for TES 6 news any time soon is just setting one's self up for disappointment

[quartz shuttle]

Kinda like my love life!

[keen briar]

Huzzah

[quartz shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/dancing-cowboy-finger-gun-pointing-moves-gif-17170914

[keen briar]

But the thing that hurts TES a bit isn't the long release times

Its the lack of anything substantial in those release times

[hardy quarry]

TES is so big that the next generation will probably be jumping out of their seats for a chance to have a TES in their own era

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah. If there were spinoffs, or novels, or SOMETHING else to fill in the holes, maybe.

[hardy quarry]

That is what happened with Oblivion. Tons of new fans

There will be so many kids that were born when Skyrim was released playing TES6

[quartz shuttle]

It was still only 5 years though. Look at Duke Nukem as an example of what happens when you take too long

[hardy quarry]

And with how much people complain about it, news of TES6 will be everywhere

Like a thunderstorm after a drought.

[quartz shuttle]

Not only was the name no longer enough to carry it, but the rest of the industry had caught up, and in many ways even moved past Duke Nukem by the time Forever even came out.

[hardy quarry]

Duke Nukem was bad because of development hell. Interest still hasn't faded in TES6

[quartz shuttle]

Duke Nukem was bad for lots of reasons.

One of which was it taking so long, because they kept shifting the goals and missed their optimal interest window. There were moreproblems beyond that, but that was one of them.

[hardy quarry]

I think it's possible, but there's no signs of it right now

[quartz shuttle]

When Oblivion, and even Skyrim came out. Bethesda basically had zero competition. Now, while no one has actually matched them, there are a dozen different studios doing Open World RPGs. How is that going to change over the next 4-6 years?

[hardy quarry]

A lot of those existed for Fallout 4

A lot of those exist now with Starfield coming out. Starfield will be a stronger indicator of how they fare in the market

[keen briar]

I think the biggest concern is less the competition, and how the interest in RPG has changed a bit over the years.

Its transitioned more from mechanics and skills to the emotional investment in the narrative and characters.

[hardy quarry]

Tbh yeah, Im' not sure how Starfield will fare since it will be very heavily scrutinized

It's what people are getting instead of the game they want, so they're going to be more severe with it

And interest that has shifted in the RPG market probably won't help

I'd be more worried about that than TES6 tbh

[quartz shuttle]

Yeah. I think Starfield will be a much better indicator of the future, right now all we have is a LOT of speculation.

On the story thing, though, i very much DO think it is possible to tell an emotional and engaging story without sacrificing the character freedom of TES games. It's just going to take some actual, real writing.

[hardy quarry]

Also...even Final Fantasy still sells well, despite being well past its prime

People who are the ones who make the content that started the trends usually can produce "good enough" quality levels for people

People are always weirdly doomer about all this. I can see this going bad but I can also still see Bethesda being wildly successful

[quartz shuttle]

None of this stupid "Choose your own adventure, your actions change the future" nonsense. You need a clear, structured and engaging story that has enough character wiggle room that you can accomodate most people.

[quartz shuttle]

Same. I just assume the worst, and prepare for it

[hardy quarry]

Tbh I don't think this is very true

[quartz shuttle]

Means i'm usually plesantly surprised. I got my hopes up for New Vegas, and man...

[hardy quarry]

Even the Witcher had to make a lot of things more linear

[quartz shuttle]

https://tenor.com/view/bravo-dashed-hopes-high-hopes-futurama-sad-gif-12387112

[hardy quarry]

For every choice you have more permutations

[keen briar]

And as we know, BGS prides itself on having gigantic open worlds and less on what's in those gigantic open worlds. Stanfield might be visually astonishing, but if the characters and story is just like how we've seen before, its going to be a bad indicator for TES' future.

I think they can pull it off, but at the same time we've been getting the same plot points in every ESO chapter for awhile now so..m

[hardy quarry]

You generally either tell really good linear stories or you do really broad open-ended stories

You can kind of mix and match it but you can't have as much freedom if you focus on direct narrative