#elder-scrolls-lore

1 messages · Page 28 of 1

split iris
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Overall, imo, Europe Tamriel is a good size template

uncut hatch
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OH

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Sooo... how big is nirn...

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Don’t answer that. It was rhetorical

coral mantle
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how long did it take for Uriel V's army to reach Akavir....

split iris
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Even with such info we sadly wouldnt be able to calculate the size of Nirn lol

modest helm
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There is this alternate account extrapolated from PGE1

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quartz shuttle
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There is also Lady N's figures, which are drawn from basically every distance marker made in every source

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Point being, we don't actually know, and sources present conflicting information

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Travel times and distance don't actually match up from one source to another, and on the largest scale it's slightly bigger than Africa. On the smallest scale, it's about the size of the American Midwest.

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All of that said, even at the smallest scale, you're looking at a continent with a population in the millions. At the highest, hundreds of millions.

hardy quarry
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It's slightly bigger than Texas

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See it's funny because you in particular though that this was retconned ages ago

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PGE1 and the novels help establish a general understanding of the size and dimensions, making it roughly larger than Texas, which is also in line with other figures we have.

white garden
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nice we now know

hardy quarry
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Oh hey Ph.D. dropped it. Good guy Ph.D.

west palm
uncut hatch
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‘Tamriel’ is often disappointing

coral mantle
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roman empire was tiny-tiny too \o/ although them romans didn't have interplanar portals and such

uncut hatch
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Eh... yeah I guess?

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I kinda just wish Tamriel wasn’t just giant Hawaii where it’s just a island in the middle of nowhere

quartz shuttle
# uncut hatch I kinda just wish Tamriel wasn’t just giant Hawaii where it’s just a island in t...

Well, again, sources vary. Topals figures make it pretty big, even gargantuan depending on which end of the story you lean towards. Some of PGE1 makes it tiny, like 250 miles from Almalexia to the peak of Red Mountain.

Then you've got in-text sources ans travel times. For instance, it takes Barenziah most of a season to get from Whiterun to Riften. On the flip side, apparently the Legion can encircle the entire Lake Rumare in a day.

There is too little consistency in the actual informarion we have.

uncut hatch
coral mantle
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say, have anybody found any lore-heavy quest in Blackwood by now? like that V's tour into khajiit afterlife beliefs in Elsweyr? living Lich twist wouldn't hurt as well

stark pewter
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There are a variety of figures about the size of Tamriel, none of which agree with each other. Even the most famous (pge1, 200 miles to red mountain) is immediately contradicted in that same book.

uncut hatch
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So it is time to resurface the question. Anyone think they are able to crack the cypher in the Egg of Time? IIRC some dev said it's random letters with no actual meaning which lead the search to stop. Part of me still feels like it's encrypted.

slender latch
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The true remaining mystery from Morrowind is the Hlaalu Cipher which hasn’t been cracked.

uncut hatch
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breaks out Kali Linux alright link me. I'm ready.

uncut hatch
quartz shuttle
slender latch
uncut hatch
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thank you thank you. I'll be back in 5 years with nothing to report

slender latch
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The only reason I don’t think it’s gibberish is that the imperial, Redoran and Telvanni ciphers were broken already

uncut hatch
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Do we know the cypher forms from each?

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obviously, yes, but where can I find the info

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Imperial-library I'll assume

split iris
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I know a while back, a couple of friends and I gave it a go, and in a doc, we had a quote from the writer but tbh I have no idea what's the source so take it as you will.

"I doubt I used Playfair or anything complicated like that. I'm pretty sure Redoran was AtBash, Telvanni was a modified King Tut, and both the Imperial and Hlaalu were Viginere. I didn't keep the source code after I left Bethesda, so I can't say for sure what it was. It can't have been anything complex, since I wrote all three cipher programs in one day. Since these still haven't been cracked, my best guess is that there was a bug in the code."
"After some thought, it's possible that I used another program. I only wrote 3 cipher programs, but I might have used one from another source. It wouldn't be anything too technical or modern, like a block cipher. But it's marginally possible that I used a pad cipher or something like Solitaire that could theoretically be done by the citizens of Tamriel. I still think I used the same program for both the Hlaalu and Imperial ciphers, though, which makes it Viginere."

slender latch
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The imperial is viginere but Hlaalu seems different.

uncut hatch
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What were the pass phrases used in the other codes? Or a link to the deciphered and ciphered texts

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I tried searching I-L and UESP to no immediate avail

modest helm
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I enjoy how even TES3 has them as not a Mephala cult but actually a Dagon cult, just to further confuse the plot

hardy quarry
# quartz shuttle Well, again, sources vary. Topals figures make it pretty big, even gargantuan de...

That's because the Barenziah numbers are retconned. It takes the Legion not long to encircle Lake Rumare, and it also takes a few weeks on foot to move from the south-central Cyrodiil to the Valus mountains (novels). This is roughly consistent with the 250 miles statistic from PGE1 and the 15 mile estimate made for the distance between Lilmoth to the coast (also novels). This is also roughly consistent with number of Legions there seemed to be in their glory days and the size of the individual Legion elements, in a way that is congruent with what we can expect from military population data assuming that the "Texas+" size was correct.

modest helm
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Nah, Hrordis is explicitly both a Brotherhood member and a Dagonite

stark socket
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Tharnite Dagon Cult, as their allies

hardy quarry
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It is true as Lady N pointed out that the 250 mile statistic is contradicted in other portions of PGE1, particularly the distance between a city in Elsweyr (I want to say Rimmen) and the Valenwood border, but this number is actually pretty consitent with the only other hard estimate in the novels, which are both consistent with the scale of the novels. And unlike the games, the novels are meant to be to actual scale with the world.

stark socket
hardy quarry
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that smol Tamriel has the most current and consistent evidence

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Also the Arena numbers were retconned immediately by Daggerfall 🤣 . And I already know you know this.

stark socket
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I find the key for a believable size of Tamriel is that it keeps the cultures in a distance of each other that makes weird perceptions of each other more or less believable. One does not simply travel from Narsis to Daggerfall over the holiday, or micro-manage political attacks over this distance. There's some line in RG when Siona calls Dram (the only Dunmer in the game) a "ghoul from furthest Morrowind". Some Wayrest courtier writes a succesful novel on the ex-Queen of Morrowind that has nothing to do with the land of Temple, ash and bugs at all. Pocket Guides are produced to inform and educate citizens about the greatness (in every way) of their Empire beyond their own hamlet. The others are not neighborhood. And so when in doubt, I'd vote for the larger (or largest) maps of Tamriel.

hardy quarry
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Historically you got killed for wandering into just about every province to be fair Tyer

modest helm
# stark socket Ah, right. I just thought about Carecalmo

Yep, I also had to wonder if the DB were just "allies" with the Dagonites or actual Dagonites themselves. Seems to be both (allies with Carecalmo, Dark Brothers with Hrordis)
Ah, if only the explicit PSJJJJ worshippers of Redguard Forum Madness and the Sermon Zero thread made it into the actual game 😔 would be an ordeal to mod it in as well since it's, at least upfront, rather at odds with the pragmatic Mephala cultists of TES3

hardy quarry
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And actually I'd argue that we don't see immense degrees of cultural separation in Tamriel at all

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Even the Dunmer still have strong Aldmeri roots and are debating the same kind of philosophies that the Altmer are, over a continent away

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There also doesn't seem to be much variation in language and not that many ethnic groups. Roughly 2-3 a province

stark socket
hardy quarry
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Neighboring provinces often have similar cultural ideas, like High Rock and Skyrim

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I think this is actually more believable to be found in a small continent

stark socket
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Sure, and every Dunmer knows what an Altmer is, and how to curse him for that.

hardy quarry
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It being too small is more a value statement than one based on evidence, which is what I wanted to point out

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Seems like just the right size for the scale of the lore that we get imo. I'm a sucker for consistency

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And also density

stark socket
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And more place for nuances, and not-so-clear-cut borders

hardy quarry
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Size for exploration is a highly relative thing tbf.

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It's ideological. Tamriel is still not that small considering most people travel on foot

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And it has a lot of wilderness

stark socket
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Ideology?

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Ah, you mean, the method -

hardy quarry
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Which I guarantee isn't a realistic one

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It seems small because you have modern landscapes to compare it to. Americans in particular are accustomed to vast amounts of empty land

stark socket
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That's good to point out indeed.

quartz shuttle
# hardy quarry That's because the Barenziah numbers are retconned. It takes the Legion not long...

Again, though, it's widly inconsistent. The Novels have the Legion engaging a fighting retreat over 3 days from Cheydenal to Lake Rumare. But The Great War has legions able to cover the distance in a fighting advance from Choral to Bravil in a day.

It's not that there have been retcons, it's that it's just been plain inconsistent. Some books, like The Great War, treat the games as to-scale. Others, such as The Real Barenziah, the Greg Keyes Novels, the PGE1 and others treat it as larger, but none of them agree on teh scale of how MUCH larger.

hardy quarry
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When you fill a space with more things, it seems bigger, regardless of its size. Was that not one of the design philosophies for Morrowind?

hardy quarry
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I don't recall the Great War book making that claim tbh

quartz shuttle
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Not really.

Consider Cheydinal to Lake Rumare. It's about 1/3rd the distance of Almalexia to the peak of Red Mountain. That would make it about 83 miles based on the distance given for Red Mountain. In order to cover that distance, the Legion would have to be moving almost 28 miles a day, in a fighting retreat. That's faster than the average per-day forced march of a Roman Legion, and they're not going to be moving a full speed (and thus leave them open to easy reprisal). A fighting retreat would be half speed, at most, especially considering they're protecitng civilians.

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Then you've got Topal's journey, which even at Galley rowing speed would be over 1000 miles from Firsthold to the inland shores of the Iliac Bay

hardy quarry
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Topal reaches west Tamriel in general, and given the dimensions I've found Tamriel to be, gives him average bronze age ship speeds

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He doesn't beeline from Firsthold to the Iliac

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Oh sorry

quartz shuttle
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From Father of the Niben (whcih i will admit, is a dubous source)

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But our pilot, judging by his own and our modern maps, sailed in a straight line north-east, through the Abecean Sea, and into the Iliac Bay, before touching ground somewhere near present day Anticlere in two months time.

hardy quarry
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Let me rephrase, I am rereading Father of the Niben. What is pointed out is that he wound have reached Valenwood in a few days had he gone that way

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Which is consistent with my numbers, assuming he had the speed of bronze age ships, which seems more than reasonable

quartz shuttle
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We have always been led to beleive that Altmeri ships are notably faster than Imperial or real world counterparts though

hardy quarry
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Regardless, it is more than possible with the scale I have given that it could have taken a couple of days

quartz shuttle
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Which is the problem. Without knowing the exact travel speed, we can't make any clear conclusions (and even the stated direction doesn't make much sesne, as NE from Firsthold doesn't get you anywher near the Iliac Bay).

hardy quarry
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I do not think that seems as legitimate with the other scales

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If we can't make any clear conclusions...then why bring up Father of the Niben?

quartz shuttle
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To reinforce the fact that we have a lot of information, adn very little of it agrees

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Because, frankly, i don't think Bethesda has made a decision. They let people toss out whatever numbers they feel like, and don't actually know how big their world is

hardy quarry
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I'm very confident that the fact that the only hard numbers we have ever been given being roughly consistent with themselves is not a coincidence. And in the novels I go by the travel time of Sul and Attrebus, which is intended to be reflected as travel time.

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I'm not saying there's no inconsistencies, I'm pointing out that the consistencies that do exist all correlate around the scale I've brought up

quartz shuttle
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And i am far less confident, though i'll admit it's been some time since i went over them in depth

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4-5 years, to be precise

hardy quarry
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And if/when Bethesda retcons it again, I'll adjust my position on this again

split iris
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Funny enough, if we did do with the "average bronze age" boat idea, we'd go from the Galley's >5000mil to around 177miles, fitting the Texas Tamriel Model

But again, I still dont think one should take Topal's journey are fully hardcore stats. There are many lacking variables. Rest periods, Winds, etc.

hardy quarry
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Right

quartz shuttle
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It's also assuming they're using Galleys

hardy quarry
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When I played around with Father of the Niben, it was more to confirm whether the scale I had discovered would at least be possible

quartz shuttle
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The whole theme of the Altmer is the decline of Elvish ability rather than progress, so it's entirely possible Topal's ship was mor elike a Sloop and less like a Galley

hardy quarry
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I highly doubt that the ancient Aldmeri had galleys. Ancient TES cultures are primitive but with amazing magic technology. Their material cultures and material technologies are usually less sophisticated from the looks of most evidence

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Lady N for the same reason has suggested that early TES mirrors the bronze age

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Not saying that to justify my position on the ships, because I don't think the ships themselves matter. I'm saying that it might be best not to assume a highly sophisticated sailing culture at the beginning of Altmeri civilization

quartz shuttle
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Their stated origin is having sailed from Aldmeris though

hardy quarry
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Sure

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Having ships != having highly sophisticated maritime culture at the dawn of your civilization

quartz shuttle
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I suppose that's fair

hardy quarry
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It's definitely a big deal but let's not assume they were 1,000 years ahead of everyone already

quartz shuttle
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My overal point is, i don't think they've retconned anything. Because i don't think they ever HAD an idea of how big they wanted things

coral mantle
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Velothi were tribal savages, no?

quartz shuttle
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They just let anyone drop whatever number they want, and don't really concern themselves with it.

hardy quarry
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Well the Arena and Daggerfall numbers were intentional and were definitely retconned

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Arena was in fact immediately retconned by Daggerfall

split iris
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A lot of people assume that the Altmer started at Iron Age or what have you but even in ESO and all things the Psijics have had to say, shows that they too did have a tribal cultural period, even if it was short. In a sense, the "North Time Slow, South Time Fast" in spirit is true.

quartz shuttle
hardy quarry
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Well, if any number is apparently okay, then I'm going to suggest that out of all the inconsistent numbers that are available, people should go with the most consistently similar ones as numbers that represent the continuity

plain ibex
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Do Argonians sweat?

Blades_2021-05-10-13-09-48.jpg
stark socket
# hardy quarry It's rooted in a belief in what the scale represents

What I struggle with about small-scale Tamriel - and this really has to do with "realism", and the degree of meta aspects & RL inspiration you decide to bring into the lore - is to have mesomerican pyramids and bretic castles and [the weird but eastern mix that Morrowind is] - in something that is supposed to have the size of, say western Europe (which definitely has remarkable cultural differences, but of course not to this massive degree)? If it takes obvious inspiration from all over the world, methinks it should have such a size. Other fictional worlds solved it like this - that's better than some claustrophia of cultures I think, even if the games, where I can run from Whiterun to Morthal in a few minutes, of course condense remarkable diversity into much, much smaller scales.

split iris
hardy quarry
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As far as I can tell, the main thing that seems to enforce cultural division, especially in early Tamrielic history, is all the genocide and violence against the "other"

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Several countries seem to have background lore where you borderline get killed just for talking to someone outside of your race

ashen dagger
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I have a lore question. What are Sunbirds? I heard and learned a bit about them from a friend who is a TES lore aficionado, but I understand very little about the universe, such as things like the universe being the dream of a god or the sky/space being made of dead souls, or how the sun isn't actually a sun.

hardy quarry
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There's also towers metaphysically projecting people-as-land and all kinds of crazy shiz

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I don't think for Tamriel it's unreasonable

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split iris
hardy quarry
coral mantle
stark socket
ashen dagger
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Yeah, I heard something about TES's "backwards evolution"

split iris
ashen dagger
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Like how the world used to be at our world's Renaissance age, but slowly regressed to Dark Age tech.

split iris
ashen dagger
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Weird, so in a world basically modeled after fantasy settings with both low and high tech civilizations and cultures, one group managed to create starships?

split iris
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Many groups managed many starships

stark socket
split iris
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TES is very sci-fi fantasy. This is its Spelljammer Side

coral mantle
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they didnt use Helium-5 fuel though, just your casual Magicka

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and maybe a soul-sacrifice or two

split iris
ashen dagger
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Ah. To my understanding, I thought the Dwemer were the highest technologically advanced group, due to their creation of their own god, as well as things like the Clockwork City and the prototype sentient AI.

split iris
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It all depends on how one sees technology. Usually us Earth Humans see oil and metal and electricity and think Technology. But glass and light and mirrors and numbers can very well be the case for the Altmer

ashen dagger
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Interesting.

hardy quarry
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Another fun thing I like to point out is Tamriel's military statistics. I'm a bit of a historical medicine and battlefield medic buff, having been one and I'm always interested in the topic. Generally speaking, most places in history can only put out 1% of their population as soldiers healthy and fit for service. The numbers vary greatly and certain nations in certain time periods have much higher numbers than that due to a military state or being under the duress of invasion or something of that nature.

But in general, if you have the luxury to choose, roughly 1% of your population ends up in your military. There's probably a good logistical reason hidden somewhere too in terms of how many people you can supply with your own resources who are not helping in producing more resources.

The Septim Empire has had something like 20-22 Legions, though not likely all active at the same time at all points of history. I believe the highest number we've heard though is the 22nd Legion. Each Legion has 5,000 men. That brings us to roughly 110,000 men in the Legions as a sort of peak. Perhaps it was a really good era that year.

Well that would suggest that Tamriel under the Septims probably wasn't much more than 10,000,000 people in population. Even if you double that it's a small number. And for the record these are very conservative estimates. If you increase the percentage of people fighting, that means the population pool would be suggested to actually be even smaller.

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And of course the provinces have their own forces, but bigger overall than Legionary forces? Probably not. Overall? Maybe. That's dicier but let's say we double the population as suggested just to be safe

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That's still 20,000,000 people. It's not a small number of people, but it's still quite small for a continent

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And if you blow Tamriel up to absurd proportions, could the Legions actually secure all that territory in any believable age? Probably not.

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That's the scale I believe we're looking at, and I think in general the more you dig, the more you find things that support this

stark socket
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That's what Brief History also speaks about - the massive difficulties to keep the whole Empire together; the first that actually stretched across all Tamriel.

hardy quarry
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Of course

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I'm saying that the Arena scale for instance would not have even been possible to subdue even by Tiber Septim in the way that he did with these numbers

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The numbers would simply be too absurdly small

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And presumably, he probably didn't even have half that size, but who knows

quartz shuttle
stark socket
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Maybe these are herodotian numbers ^^

hardy quarry
quartz shuttle
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Yeah, my scroll wasn't working

hardy quarry
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This is partly why I doubled the population number to complete the mental exercise

quartz shuttle
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I missed that

west palm
hardy quarry
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Generally I assume that all 22 Legions were probably not active at the same time in most points of the Empire's history though

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That might have been the case for Uriel V, I wouldn't doubt that

west palm
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I think the biggest mistake we are making is looking at it through a modern lens, rather than accounting for the gigantic differences in tech levels (which is also why I'm not fond of modern political map style being used to represent Tamriel).

hardy quarry
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There's too many economic and population disasters in Tamriel to boot

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So 10,000,000 to 20,000,000 to me is Tamriel in peace and doing well

quartz shuttle
ashen dagger
quartz shuttle
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But because the Legion was better able to relocate, deploy in force, and supply larger assemblages of troops, they were dominant

ashen dagger
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Plus it highlights the "sunbird" nature of the vessel, looking like a Phoenix feather.

quartz shuttle
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Its really just too many variables we don't have reliable numbers for to even begin guessing about

hardy quarry
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That's true of everything in life Lach, you can only use the information you have

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There is no such thing as complete knowledge

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Only derived information that is good enough based on the information you currently have

quartz shuttle
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Which is why i generally say

"Between the American Northwest and Asia in size, and between low tens of millions amd mid hundteds of millions of inhabitants "

hardy quarry
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Which you're doing by feel

ashen dagger
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That's what academia is for. To take all that knowledge, and compile it into reasonable sources of information, such as books, internet journals, and wikis.

hardy quarry
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Why is that a better process?

west palm
quartz shuttle
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No, im doing it because the outcome depends entirely on which data set you lean towards, because thete is so much contradictory data

hardy quarry
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I think you need to lead with evidence-based approaches first and change your position as the available evidence changes

stark socket
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Syfri's Razor ^

hardy quarry
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Blessed

quartz shuttle
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We have never had any direct statements regarding retcons or canonicity, and can't just toss out data just because we don't like it

ashen dagger
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Too bad there's no Bethesda TES developers or ESO loremasters here on the server, then you could simply ask them, and formulate a logical and sound conclusion based on their statement.

quartz shuttle
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But that also leaves us dealing with the inconsistencies

ashen dagger
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Since it'd likely be impossible to get a straight answer.

hardy quarry
split iris
# ashen dagger Plus it highlights the "sunbird" nature of the vessel, looking like a Phoenix fe...

That is indeed the interpretation that ESO is going with but to that I say...meh

"Made of crystal and solidified sunlight, with wings though they do not fly, and prows that elongate into swirling Sun-Birds, and gem-encrusted mini-trebuchets fit for sailing which fire pure aetheric fire, and banners, banners, banners, listing their ancestors all the way back to the Dawn. This is Old Mary at Water."

"They're not ships, they're actual birds. Well, okay, really big birds made out of the sun."

It just depends how you see it. I know that LadyN has some great abstract fanart of Sun-Birds and once should see them as such alien things

ashen dagger
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Huh.

hardy quarry
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Do you need someone to actually tell you that the High Rock in Arena's material and High Rock in TES2 are not the same scale, officially?

ashen dagger
hardy quarry
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I think on some level you have to employ some common sense

ashen dagger
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It doesn't count for the whole of the series, but it is a canon statement.

quartz shuttle
hardy quarry
quartz shuttle
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Im an academic. I reject Common Sense, because its usually wrong.

hardy quarry
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So you're a French Rationalist then 🤣

quartz shuttle
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I have not had the honour of speaking to eother, so i cannot confirm nor deny that

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How... DARE you sir!

coral mantle
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alas, TES doesn't work like 'we developers explain it like this". Everything is written from in-character perspective. We can only use what actual Tamriel inhabitants tell us

quartz shuttle
coral mantle
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wait, where did you get while i was typing that

stark socket
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"For [Daggerfall], James?"

hardy quarry
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Common sense is understanding that time is structured in a sexagesimal system. Rationalism is thinking that time needs to follow pure scientific principles and be broken into 10s, which the French tries to do

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Common sense is understanding how to use time correctly in your setting

quartz shuttle
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Just... calling someone Fench like that. So rude

hardy quarry
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Well you don't think common sense actually exists

split iris
ashen dagger
hardy quarry
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And claiming that common sense doesn't exist and is opposed to academic thought is both an indictment of academic thought and something the French helped invent

quartz shuttle
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Oh, it exists, but its function is born out of survival on the plains of Africa. Common sense tells you that rustling jn the grass is a lion ready to eat you.

hardy quarry
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Mostly just ruffling your feathers, not meaning to be insulting

quartz shuttle
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Good for keeping you from getting eaten, not so good for academia

hardy quarry
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Needs moar thicc concepts

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Not all information is purely scientific or rational. That's what I'm trying to get at

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I actually thought you were French tbh. My bad.

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Lots of meaning actually gets completely stripped away if you go too rational with it. You need a mix of common sense/inference with logic and reasoning

split iris
hardy quarry
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My general approach with TES is that we should go by consistency (inference, thick concepts, reasoning) and evidence (logic, rationality)

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Which sometimes means that meaning is constructed out of the desire to make sense out of things

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But as long as you are keeping with the continuity, this is valid

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If you reject it all on the basis that nothing can be known...then it's a self-fulfilling prophecy

quartz shuttle
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:P

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I am a historical mutt

hardy quarry
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We're good Lach, I hope you don't think too poorly of me hahahaha

quartz shuttle
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Pick a country in europe, i have ancestors from there

split iris
quartz shuttle
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Yes. 1700s

quartz shuttle
split iris
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Trick question...it was our Aldmeris (I cannot make that joke, CapVolkow isn't here nerevar)

hardy quarry
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I'm actually writing a paper on canonicity atm, because I think a lot of these concepts aren't well understood in the TES community

ashen dagger
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An academic paper or more a personal community post thing?

hardy quarry
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It's an iteration of an older one I did except correcting its many mistakes and more stronger-er

ashen dagger
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Ah. I had a similar idea myself a while back, when it came to redefining Fallout canon. Unfortunately, it was rushed and put into effect in a state that was nowhere near fleshed out or finished, making things more confusing than they already were.

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So perhaps when you put yours out, I can look to yours as a source of inspiration on how to redo mine properly.

hardy quarry
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I would be honored by that tbh

ashen dagger
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Without proper developer statements and the most vague/confusing of "confirmations", I'll take anything I can get.

hardy quarry
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It's built in common sense and evidence, and has been nitpicked to hell and back by my crew

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Well it's rooted in dev statements is the thing 😉

ashen dagger
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You should have seen the fallout (excuse my pun) that came from when I asked Emil P about the Fallout Bible being canon, and he gave the most roundabout statement of all time. Same with the Atomic Shop and Creation Club.

hardy quarry
ashen dagger
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It's led to canon nonsense and repercussions that still exist to this day, almost a year after I asked about it, since apparently nobody had ever though of asking him before.

hardy quarry
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Are you the one that asked him about the Creation Club?

ashen dagger
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In the 2020 German Interview, yes.

hardy quarry
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Yes, that is actually one of my sources

ashen dagger
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Ah.

hardy quarry
#

I appreciate you doing that, thanks

ashen dagger
#

It was very confusing, since he answered it being a "judgement call"

#

Which apparently meant any and everything that wasn't in the game simply wasn't canon.

#

The most backwards logic I've ever heard, I swear.

#

Plus the whole "canon starts at the games", not elaborating on where it ended.

hardy quarry
#

He made the claim of it being "parallel canon" and being as close to canon as he could. What he wanted to say from the looks of it was that Creation Club should be taken seriously and treated as official material but shouldn't be seen as the same as the main material

#

And he seemed like he couldn't quite find the words to say. He Emil'd it

ashen dagger
#

That was partially his intent, I believe.

#

I took it alongside how Cartogriffi worded it in his TES post.

hardy quarry
#

You're going to be very happy with me I think

ashen dagger
#

Creation Club is meant to fit seamlessly within the universe (with exception to cross-promotional material), but may or may not be fully canon until said otherwise.

coral mantle
#

Crimson Daggers or what were the books called that come with CC Alternative Armors, pretty sure they 'will' be canon as soon as they appear in TES VI, which they likely will

ashen dagger
#

So stuff like that Portal mod and the DOOM mod are not canon, but stuff like the Captain Cosmos pack and that one Angels/Devils TES pack would be canon.

#

Sort of that kind of logic.

hardy quarry
sand flume
#

i cant imagine creation club giving any massive new lore canons, but suggesting a link between silver hand and the vigilents of stendarr is a really cool thing it did

ashen dagger
#

Essentially.

hardy quarry
#

What canon actually refers to is whether a source is authoritative, and if Creation Club is less authoritative than the main canon, it's like a lesser canon

#

If that makes sense

sand flume
ashen dagger
#

Mhmm, I categorized it as one of 4 things.

#

Canon: Undisputed canon.
Supplementary canon: Canon that expands on the universe outside the games, still fully canon.
Tertiary canon: Canon that still expands on the universe outside the games, but can be retconned or rewritten at any time.
Non-canon: Canon that does not apply or adhere to the main universe.

sand flume
#

or you mean the books being in tes 6

ashen dagger
#

So most Creation Club would go under Supplementary Canon, but the cross-promotional bits would go under non-canon.

hardy quarry
#

I'm using old church latin classifications

#

Except for Pseudepigrapha which was almost unanimously told to go away by my people

ashen dagger
#

Oh boy.

hardy quarry
#

I like words heavy with meaning

#

You could say that I like my concepts....extra thicc

#

What I was trying to convey to Lach was an idea similar to this:

"Evaluative terms and concepts are often divided into “thin” and “thick”. We don’t evaluate actions and persons merely as good or bad, or right or wrong, but also as kind, courageous, tactful, selfish, boorish, and cruel. The latter are examples of thick concepts, the general class of which includes virtue and vice concepts such as generous and selfish, practical concepts such as shrewd and imprudent, epistemic concepts such as open-minded and gullible, and aesthetic concepts such as banal and gracious. These concepts stand in an intuitive contrast to those we typically express when we use thin terms such as right, bad, permissible, and ought."

#

There's a movement right now to rename breastfeeding as chestfeeding

#

But chestfeeding does not have the emotional thickness that breastfeeding does

coral mantle
#

Tod Howard himself said the same about 'canon', like if you see it 'happening' in the game, it's true. Mehrunes stomped the streets of the Imperial CIty? true. In-game books are secondary, because they're written by in-game characters, that maybe wanted to sell you something. Mehrunes burned city of Almalexia? weeeell, maybe it wasn't exactly what happened, can't know for sure. And then come forums and TES novels - those aren't important. Something like that?

hardy quarry
#

It actually reduces information in the expression by trying to be purely rational, which is one reason why being too rational is bad

#

It actually hurts understanding and communication, because we aren't robots

sand flume
#

why arent tes novels important

hardy quarry
#

And we function on emotion and inference as part of our information processing

sand flume
#

official content

coral mantle
#

TES novels arent as good because they're not in game events \o/

hardy quarry
#

The TES novels are fantastic. They had many references to them in TES5. I'm not sure they are unimportant to the devs, just the fans, which is greatly mistaken

ashen dagger
#

I actually read a post recently that summed up my own thought process in regards to lore and worldbuilding matters.

# 

Its a approach that allows for easier rewriting in the future and encourages people to speculate on the gray areas in-between the words.
coral mantle
#

don't kill the messenger. Just recalling what TH said, is all

ashen dagger
#

While speculation does continue to exist, it still presents the notion of "these are the facts as they happened, there is nothing more beyond this until I or someone else say so"

hardy quarry
weak solstice
#

this is a kidnapping

hardy quarry
#

Absolutely

ashen dagger
#

I'd certainly love to do so, though I'd have to brush up on my Latin. I haven't studied it much since my New Vegas days.

hardy quarry
ashen dagger
#

Ah.

hardy quarry
#

Where you say supplementary canon I say Apocrypha

ashen dagger
#

In that case, I may be perfectly good to go then, at least when it comes time to review it.

west palm
#

Thank you, that's an excellent term.

ashen dagger
#

In the meantime, I'm working a lot on various wikis, such as Wasteland and Disco Elysium, as well as smaller ones.

hardy quarry
ashen dagger
#

Ah.

weak solstice
#

fallout canon tier list is practical and calculating, tes canon tier list is religious archaisms

hardy quarry
#

And it's just being stacked like legos

hardy quarry
ashen dagger
#

You can get them to fit if you smash and break them together, but the result is entirely mish-mashed and frequently misinterpreted.

stark socket
#

I had enough hierographa versus apographa for one life.

hardy quarry
#

I just don't want to have to read any more literature to debunk concepts that were debunked 100 years ago

#

I wanna just talk about lore

proper ice
#

Idk, debunking what’s been debunked is pretty fun

weak solstice
quartz shuttle
#

cough The Towers cough

hardy quarry
ashen dagger
#

I also like lore, I just focus specifically on things that either rely on artistic interpretation, or are entirely or incredibly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

proper ice
#

The drier the better

hardy quarry
ashen dagger
#

Just yesterday, I fixated on a 76 Atomic Shop promotional image just because it had a beverage can, and I wanted to know if it was a Nuka-Cola can or not.

stark socket
#

"Certain things are good, certain things are mediocre, rather many are bad", as Martial wrote, two thousands years ago, quite a while before the old church. That's my authoritative statement on Tamriel & Canon.

proper ice
#

Nah, I want to leave the privilege to you

hardy quarry
#

The stances I've taken against post-structuralism and for canon were stances that were just left to me, unfortunately

#

I'd happily let someone else do the work

proper ice
#

Lol

hardy quarry
#

I will never ever stop though

#

Like Sisyphus I am bound to this eternity

proper ice
#

Well if that’s good, good

#

Call me Tantalus, because I’m always just out of reach on knowing what’s going on

hardy quarry
#

Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

proper ice
#

I love mah greek stories too, Psyche being my fav story

hardy quarry
#

I'm making a lot of headway though

#

MKult is in ruins. New waves of nerds coming in that just want to discuss the actual literature. Good stuff

proper ice
#

MKult? Never heard of it

hardy quarry
proper ice
#

But if it’s what I assume, I can’t say I’m too sad about that lol

stark socket
#

Nah, just make up your own mind on what's good Tamriel and what not.

#

That's just secondary I think

hardy quarry
#

What you consider to be good or bad about Tamriel doesn't change what Tamriel is though. And if you find you don't actually like what Tamriel is, than what's the point?

stark socket
#

Tamriel is [not].

split iris
#

We'll just open the floodgates and let the Glorantha fans storm in and teach the mantra "Your Tamriel May Vary"

hardy quarry
#

TES isn't Glorantha either

stark socket
#

For some, it is more than to others.

hardy quarry
#

Though the influences from Glorantha should be taken pretty seriously

#

And they'd be wrong

stark socket
#

Different, not wrong.

split iris
#

It basically is with the serial numbers filed off. It is at least one of the main three pillars.

stark socket
#

It's the part that Nights enjoys most about it for sure. 😉

hardy quarry
#

No you're just making your own version of Tamriel and its continuity at that point. It is definitely incorrect when looking at it in reference to the canonical material

#

A part of TES is definitely Glorantha though, of course

stark socket
#

But this is the dead point

hardy quarry
#

Most people want the continuity between themselves and the developers

split iris
hardy quarry
#

They don't want their own fanfiction versions of a setting no one shares with them

#

And most people that reject the main continuity used to embrace it, until it went against their own personal continuity

stark socket
#

Yes, that's what I always say about the Star Wars sequels ...

hardy quarry
#

And I'm not knocking that. It's an emotional thing and very real to that person. As chemically and emotionally real as an actual relationship

#

But ultimately it leads to a lack of letting go, and that leads to bitterness and strife in many people

#

It leads to unnecessary community schisms and conflict

#

And then they tell people to look at Tamriel as they do, and I think most people don't like that very much

stark socket
#

You know, I could not disagree more about Tamriel & Canon; but I think we - as a community, Syffri and Tyermali - are still able to discuss Tamriel like grown-up persons.

hardy quarry
#

Oh you and I do I think

stark socket
#

And that's what matters for me.

hardy quarry
#

I do not think that is what has happened at large though

#

The TES lore community became incredibly toxic

#

I think the effects of the MKult's regime were as disastrous as it was short lived

stark socket
#

Revolution & counter-revolution? That's an old hat.

hardy quarry
#

I have the utmost respect for your insight and abilities, but I think you're very mistaken in this

#

Not in having your own continuity btw, I think you're entitled to that

#

But in telling people they should all their own continuities from the get go

#

Most people don't want that

#

What actually happens when you remove the main continuity is that there is a vacuum that someone tries to fill

#

I still have logs from memospore where the memospore gang and MK were suggesting that people that didn't agree with their version of Tamriel did not belong in the community

stark socket
#

To their community, maybe

hardy quarry
#

No....this was for all of TES lore

stark socket
#

But blaming a "MKult regime" is not better at all.

hardy quarry
#

Well I was MKult myself 🤣

#

That is why I know. I could blame specific individuals but it's better to not make public accusations

stark socket
#

That's definitely better

#

But I mean, why not make the jump beyond this?

hardy quarry
#

There are logs of /r/teslore mods deleting posts for not being in line with their vision of Tamriel

stark socket
#

Syfri's take reads like a "counter-revolution", confirming schisms and stereotypes rather than just taking the tension away from it.

hardy quarry
#

I had a falling out with one over it. They used to be a good friend

ashen dagger
#

It's like 2020 was the antithesis of all lore for certain game franchises, and 2021 is the attempt to fix it.

coral mantle
#

phew, i'm just happy i came into TES late

hardy quarry
#

Nah I'm all for jumping beyond this, I'm just justifying my position to you, since I think you're selling it short

#

I think it's all much better now.

#

No counter-revolution is needed. Bad ideas defeat themselves

#

And internet bloodsports are stupid. The record only needs to be set straight.

ashen dagger
#

I think the main tell was naming the movement MKult, since it's just a shortened version of MK Ultra.

hardy quarry
#

And I will probably never tolerate it not being straight while I'm around. No sense forgetting history

ashen dagger
#

Which seems to have been to accomplish the same goal, just in different perspectives.

proper ice
#

Mfw Kirkbride is the result of a 60’s mind control experiment

stark socket
#

One man's Dark Age is the other man's Golden Age.

hardy quarry
#

Well people don't even know what the moons are or how to correlate their many myths

#

Which people could definitely do 10 years ago.

stark socket
#

What Lorebeard dislikes is what still fascinates me most about Tamriel.

#

I think the decline of the community has different reasons

#

No, not of the community - of lore discussion.

ashen dagger
#

The amount of speculation and personal interpretation that can go into the specifics of the fictional realm and its universe?

split iris
#

I just think people need to learn to have a more mythological thinking and learn to accept paradoxes and contradictions, rather than to have everything in a clear cut line. Overall in life, but in TES, the Land of Myth and Magic, especially. Everything mustn't be an us-vs-them. The Nedes came from Atmora or from Tamriel. Dwemer became god-skin or disappeared into Oblivion or turned to ash. In a world of fiction, it is fun to entertain the maybe's and walk the paths that work best for ya. Need's not the absolute truth, but rather the spirit of the land.

hardy quarry
hardy quarry
ashen dagger
#

It's like the Greeks and Romans all over again.

hardy quarry
#

I think it's unlikely that the planned social engineering organized in memospore didn't have an effect though. Borderline naive even.

#

The private facebook group was even worse

coral mantle
#

i'm not picking sides here btw

hardy quarry
#

I should probably step out of this tbh

#

Just because we won't agree and there's no point dragging it out. And Tyer does deserve to say his peace

stark socket
#

Mainstreamization of the games (yeah, the old swan song). Youtube sensationalism instead of reading. No idea what makes a "theory". A toxic internet driven by agendas. The fact that the slower forums declined, and that every Skyrim gamer with a smartphone hammers in "confirm my lore about The Last Dragonborn" requests.

#

The long lean period between the games. Weariness of talented people. Unlucky sisyphean labors.

hardy quarry
#

"It is the children who are wrong."

stark socket
#

And more ... it has nothing to do with what you call "MKult" I think.

coral mantle
#

oh yeah, my 10 y.o. nephew does sometimes 'educate' me regarding lore x) his tiktokers definitely know their stuff

stark socket
modest helm
#

There are TES lore TikToks?

hardy quarry
#

Tyer are you even aware of the events I'm discussing? I can send you the logs

ashen dagger
#

In the meantime, I'm finally going to start up Skyrim again, I've heard of a mod known as Legacy of the Dragonborn, and want to see what it's all about.

#

I hear it's about building a museum dedicated to you and your legacy, and I like museums.

coral mantle
#

oh, there's no fanfiction channel but, can we someday talk about Dragonborn and the likes legacy? How did your shezarrine or whatever spend retirement

stark socket
hardy quarry
#

I'm not even saying it has to be the only reason or that it's all it is

#

Can you at least meet me halfway and say that it probably had some effect.

stark socket
#

Well, you are a sovereign reader, aren't you? Why do you need "leadership" here?

hardy quarry
#

Can you answer my question?

stark socket
#

Which one? That 2012-15 or so were some wild years?

hardy quarry
#

Within that range yes

stark socket
#

Well, you try to nail me down on politics here.

#

I appreciate the canon criticism of this time, and this definitely had some share in forming my opinion on this. But ofc I don't like cults and dogma, regardless of which color, since this usually smacks of way too much social and political attachment for something like ... this.

hardy quarry
#

So do you think it probably had at least some effect on the state of things?

#

I'm not even trying to nail you down on anything, I'm trying to make sure we aren't talking past each other

stark socket
#

For you, definitely. For me? Not so much. I feel that's why we discuss (or talk past each other) 😉

hardy quarry
#

That didn't really answer the question. I meant the state of things in general

stark socket
#

Well, sure it had, just like ESO had, and many other things.

hardy quarry
#

Alright

coral mantle
#

sooo.. was this about cOda? trying to catch up. In russki fandom there's been a big fuss about my Queen Ayrenn's um, robotic origins.. Ahehe.. never read coda myself. Visited the site once, it had a lot pictures?

stark socket
#

Yes

hardy quarry
#

That's all you had to say lmao

#

Idk why you had to keep implying the problem was all with me

#

Gud nuff

weak solstice
#

this is the weirdest convo without context tbh

split iris
#

I dont think TES Lore conversations get any better with context nerevar

coral mantle
#

yeah, bethesda.net didn't have anything like it x) thanks for closing it, Beth

frosty sentinel
sterile sapphire
#

Making sense of the obscure is (at least) half the fun

stark socket
#

Or if this still matters, or if it matters at all.

plain ibex
plain ibex
hardy quarry
#

But holding territory is the issue, not taking it

plain ibex
hardy quarry
#

It takes an immense amount of force to hold an area that doesn't want to be held though

#

You need a certain number of troops that's a certain proportion of the population size to do it, and all of those dudes have to be ready for action and have to be financially supported by the people of the country who are now supplying more and more food that isn't just for them

#

It's actually inefficient to hold territory with soldiers over time, and it gets harder and harder the bigger the territory there is.

#

That's why the Assyrians (and Mesopotamians in general) mostly stucks to raids and looting, and most ancient peoples just committed genocide

#

Genocide and cutting the population size down is a great way to make an area easy to hold. Extra credit if you treat it as free land for your own citizens to colonize. That adds in populations that won't resist your forces and reduces the ability of people to fight back

#

Should give you a general idea. I don't think 5,000 men to a Legion can hold on to super big Tamriel. And mercenaries are just more men to feed for the same problem.

#

But mercenaries at least will be more loyal probably as long as you pay them

#

Empires and conquest are actually opposed to nature because it takes more effort than just raiding as a side note. That's why the idea of Empires are completely ideological, as seen with Sargon the Great

#

Sargon wanted to be seen as a great man in history, who did what no other man could do. That's why he did the things that he did.

#

And he knew his legend and accomplishments were so great that he dared anyone to measure up to him.

#

This is part of the same reason the Empire cannot hold on to their provinces over time. People want their own agency, and it's inefficient over time to keep projecting enough forces to suppress an ever-growing population

#

The Empire is the unnatural state. Factions breaking out and ruling themselves is the natural state.

#

(I have a suspicion because of this that Jagar Tharn was trying to cull the population)

quartz shuttle
#

And even then, the Empire was only barely held together, and prone to frequent rebellions and internal conflicts. It's not like it was 400 years of peace and overpopulation

#

Hell, the Medes ruled over a longer period of continuous peace than the Septims ever did.

hardy quarry
#

Every Empire quickly becomes too inefficient

quartz shuttle
hardy quarry
#

The entire plot of TES2 is that it became harder and harder to suppress revolts and anti-Imperial activity

#

Legions were also garrisoned in every province to keep the peace

quartz shuttle
#

Empires don't inherently become too inefficient, but they often do.

hardy quarry
#

You have to be able to project power or you won't have an empire anymore

hardy quarry
#

Find me a single Empire that didn't become inefficient

quartz shuttle
#

Any business empire

hardy quarry
#

Oh those are definitely inefficient

quartz shuttle
#

But not TOO inefficient

hardy quarry
#

They get that way the more bloated they are.

#

Well yeah because they'd die if they did, but most corporations eventually do

#

The 90s was full of companies collapsing under their own weight, which scared companies like Disney into avoiding it

#

Because Disney almost did it too

#

I'm a corporate boy myself. It's dumb bureaucratic madness

quartz shuttle
#

That's the thing, inefficiency is going to come from any sufficiently large group. But being inefficient, and being TOO inefficient, are different things

hardy quarry
#

Most companies eventually reach a point where it can't sustain itself anymore. The oldest company in the world is a family business

#

1,000 year old company, passed down from father to son

#

If it's well set up it can last a really long time

#

Same with nations.

quartz shuttle
#

Oh, i'm not disputing that

hardy quarry
#

Bloat does structures in though. Lots of bloat.

#

And Empires have that in spades. They also tend to economically center things on themselves and plan people's economies for them

quartz shuttle
#

I'm just saying that there's nothing inherent to Empires which makes this problem worse. In general, Autocratic systems blot quicker, and Empires do tend to lean towards the autocratic

hardy quarry
#

Which limits the economic tour de force of smaller countries

#

How would you have a non-autocratic Empire though?

quartz shuttle
#

There's nothing about Empire's that makes them autocratic

#

An Empire is simply a system of power relations between a core and peripheral holdings, with a tendency towards favouring the interests of the core.

#

You could absolutely have a Democratic system under those conditions. You could even argue that most modern nations, especially the US, actively exhibit all the characteristics of an Empire in terms of their interactions with their own territories

hardy quarry
#

Oh I agree. I tend to think the Imperial American system is still autocratic though in those aspects

#

It's just more subtle than actual boots on your streets

#

It's a sort of evolution of the Imperial system in a way.

quartz shuttle
#

Indeed

hardy quarry
#

I'm not sure you can avoid having an autocratic Empire because I don't think people want to be imperial states

#

So we sort of tried this in the US with the original government we created, can't remember the name right now

#

But this was prior to the US Constitutional government

#

It was a complete failure. The states antagonized each other, and the fed couldn't exert power or hold them to task. States even made their own currency

#

It was like a more decentralized Holy Roman Empire

#

If that had continued like that, the US wouldn't even exist. Some autocratic power was needed to keep things together

quartz shuttle
#

It depends on how you define Autocratic, i suppose.

hardy quarry
#

And we did something weird where we mixed autocracy with decentralization

hardy quarry
quartz shuttle
#

See, typically it's defined more as increased individual authority and established individual power structures

#

To distinguish it from other authoitarian models

hardy quarry
#

This is a really fun conversation by the way. I never thought I get to bring up the weird Articles of Confederation stuff we did

#

I should have just said authoritarianism then. My b

#

That must have been confusing.

quartz shuttle
#

Heh, well, i am a trained Anthropologist with a History Minor, sooo...

#

I always lean towards these sorts of conversations

hardy quarry
#

I'm well read in a lot of material in that direction

#

It's my passion. So same.

quartz shuttle
#

To tie things back into TES a bit... Consider Morrowind.

#

It's clear that there is hostility towards the Empire's authority in Morrowind. And, there is a Legion presence in the province, true.

#

But it's not a true occupation. The Empire maintains a few forts about the area, but the majority of the Empire's focus is on local leadership. House Hlaalu, for instance, is heavily supported by the Empire, as are sympathetic local trade organisations.

#

Enough of a military presence to limit direct confrontation, and then a focus on empowering local leadership and making the locals dependent, or at least confortable with, Imperial trade.

hardy quarry
#

That may or may not be the case in Morrowind but it is absolutely the case in the Empire

#

The opening of TES2 exists to make that the setting's backdrop

#

And it's not an Iliac thing either....

quartz shuttle
#

Well, we're also talking about Uriel here... The man was basically incompetent.

#

His rule doesn't necessarily reflect the wider practices of the Empire.

proper ice
#

Was he really that bad?

quartz shuttle
#

Uriel inherited the most stable throne the Empire had seen since Tiber. And by the end of his reign the Empire was barely alive.

proper ice
#

I mean, an Oblivion Crisis, Dagoth Crisis, his throne was stolen for a while, whatever happened in Daggerfall

#

I’d cut him some slack considering those lol

quartz shuttle
#

Yes, there was a lot at play, but it started with his choosing Tharn as his Battlemage. Tharn, a mongrel of no recognised (in that time) bloodline who literally everyone else hated.

#

It's like Tzar Romanov making Rasputin his Prime Minister

proper ice
#

Fair enough

#

Although imo one blunder shouldn’t cement that

quartz shuttle
#

And following that, literally nothing Uriel tries to do works out as planned. He basically stumbles into saving the world, while failing at basic governance

proper ice
#

Because he made some smart calls too

modest helm
#

I somehow doubt the Barenziah books are truthful(/not retconned) about "mongrel" Tharn

quartz shuttle
#

And don't even get me started on Ocato. I'm still convinced he was a Thalmor agent

hardy quarry
proper ice
#

Oh? I love Ocato lol

#

I’m probs biased with Uriel tho, I liked Uriel

hardy quarry
#

I don't think realistically we can blame the crumbling of the Empire on Uriel VII

proper ice
#

Instead, we blame it on Martin for he was the last

hardy quarry
#

He kind of just seems like the dude left to get the bill for dinner at the end after everyone's eaten

quartz shuttle
#

Ocato's handling of the Oblivion Crisis was spectacularly bad. Like, 'Writers who think Trench Warfare is still viable" bad

hardy quarry
#

He did make really stupid decisions, some of which may have accelerated things, but it was a done deal before him

quartz shuttle
#

As an example of Ocato's terrible leadership.

Guy comes to you with the seal of the Blades, saying they've located the Heir and the Amulet of Kings, and need support to secure both and relight the Dragonfires, which will end the crisis.

Do you A; Pull back all forces to protect your most valuable asset and resolve the crisis as quickly as possible

Or B; Say "nope, too busy, you're on your own. Good luck though, we're all counting on you"

proper ice
#

B

#

For ghits and shiggles

quartz shuttle
#

You see my point though.

proper ice
#

I do, that Ocato made the best choices possible?

quartz shuttle
#

Ocato's approach to the Oblivion Crisis shows just how unprepared, and incapable, the Legion is to securing large territories (which also makes me lean towards the larger scale for the Empire, but that's beside the point). When confronted with a continent wide invason, they are totally unable to be everywhere at once.

#

Their entire function is securing key locations, and then relying on local political leadership, diplomacy, and the 'Threat' of conflict to hold the rest in line. But an actual large-scale war across Tamriel? They don't have the manpower for that.

#

Buuut Ocato decided to try anyway, and it ended up so bad that half the Continent felt abandoned by the Empire during the crisis simply because the Legion couldn't keep up (based on attempts to reconcile what we are told in Oblivion vs what we are told in the Novels and Dragonborn).

hardy quarry
#

Even Titus Mede couldn't really fix it, and he was a super-chad

proper ice
#

II?

hardy quarry
#

Definitely not Titus Mede II

#

Titus Mede II is another Uriel VII.

quartz shuttle
#

Probably I. Don't get me wrong, i love Titus II, and think he gets a bad rap because of the Great War, but Titus I was something else

#

Dude took the Imperial City with, like, 100 men.

#

He literally orchestrated revolts to make his son look like an accomplished general, just to build public opinion of his heir

#

I think Mede II's legacy will ultimately depend on how they handle the circumstances of his death

slender latch
#

I would love a book about Titus Mede I taking of the Imperial City.

quartz shuttle
#

I'd just love more books

#

I actually quite enjoyed the Greg Keyes novels

slender latch
#

It is a shame there have been no more books. There were a few fanfic writers who published their stories and sadly people have fallen for it.

simple spindle
#

I wonder if Beth would considering expanding TES outside just books

#

Like a tv show or (far fetched) movie

hardy quarry
#

Fallout tends to be the testing ground for TES these days

simple spindle
#

Yeah, they always seemed to have these side projects that went nowhere

hardy quarry
#

I'd say it's at least plausible.

simple spindle
#

Even the books were like that, there's just two and they were released a loong time ago

hardy quarry
#

The reason they didn't do more isn't because they love them, but because the oversight was difficult for Todd to personally manage.

simple spindle
#

I wonder if that's gonna change with the microsoft buyout, if they'll actually have the time or resources or whatever was lacking to push these other stuff forward

#

yeah I imagine

hardy quarry
#

It took a lot of his personal time to help give advice and be a lore check in addition to his normal duties

#

They take TES seriously. Few outside groups are generally allowed to touch lore.

simple spindle
#

I don't think Todd personally is in charge of the lore lol

hardy quarry
#

He's not, but no one is at Bethesda

#

He was still a lore check for the novels. Nesmith and Kuhlmann also assisted

#

Todd still has oversight and we have interviews of dudes saying that Todd has told them no when something didn't fit in the lore

#

Todd is about the closest thing to someone being in charge of the lore

simple spindle
#

I see

slender latch
#

It will be a sad day when Todd retires.

hardy quarry
#

It really will be. He's not perfect. His many flaws have been highlighted. But I don't know if anyone has given as much to Tamriel as he has.

#

No one is perfect under the microscope. He's done quite a lot

simple spindle
#

Every franchise has the Feige it deserves

hardy quarry
#

Idk if that's exactly fair in this case 😅

slender latch
#

I doubt I’ll get the chance but I’d love to interview him one day before he retires. I need to ask him about The Eye of Argonia

plain ibex
slender latch
plain ibex
slender latch
#

If you enjoy the food lore you should check out the ESO Blackwood lore. A lot of food lore was added with it. I uploaded it all to the Imperial Library if you don’t have the chapter.

split iris
brave shoal
#

lore nooby for elder scrolls, but i'd like to see more about dwemer personally, they always interested me the most.

coral mantle
#

check out Clickwork city expansion of ESO then Herrius. It's like living and breathing dwemer city, only Sotha Sil's version

plain ibex
simple spindle
#

It's the most dwemer heavy game and its story ties heavily into their disappearance

quartz shuttle
frigid willow
#

They're all just out getting a billion packs of cigs

brave shoal
#

i wonder if dwemer where evil, i remember the story of them enslaving the snow elves and a book i saw in eso where a dwemer just insult the other's religion and kill them with~~ fact and~~ logic by droping some item on the ground where he predict they would step so they kill themselve and he walk away casually

split iris
#

Concepts such as "good" and "evil" dont play parts in the grey-maybe of the Elder Scrolls. In the eyes of the Dwemer, as said upon the Stone, they blinded the Falmer not for control nor enslavement, but rather, to save them

uncut hatch
#

but like, most people of tamriel see the dwemer as pretty god damn evil

split iris
#

In their eyes, sure. Most Mennish races saw the Ayleids evil. Most Mennish races see the Dunmer and Altmer evil too. It all depends on who tells the story. The Chimer particular, it was due to their religious differences

#

But the DnD/LotR Dark Lord of Evil vs Holy Lord of Light aspects do not exist. No one is inherently mu-hahaha evil. It is mainly due to the interactions between the Us vs the Another vs the Other

quartz shuttle
#

The Falmer certianly saw the Nords as evil too.

uncut hatch
#

i just meant the people in tamriel :P

split iris
#

Ehhh we dont have much on the Falmer to see it as such. Many would say that the "Population Control of Saarthal" was of Nordic narrative to justify their genocide. Perhaps to cloak the real reason, the Eye of Magnus

uncut hatch
#

you guys already explained why they aren't evil

split iris
uncut hatch
#

eh, ok

brave shoal
#

i dont see how making the snow elv blind and degenerate into falmer to be enslaved was for their own good🤔

split iris
#

Ofc not, we Earth Humans ent the Another TES Dwemer. They still are wrapped in Eldrich Mystery. We just dont know what they were thinking and why.

brave shoal
#

but still, the book i saw about the dwemer insulting the other's faith and killing them when they got angery was first book i saw a little of their personality, wish to know more on that side beside robot everywhere and macguffin in every game located inside one of their city

split iris
#

I am not sure which book you are referring to, maybe Azura's Box. Mind if you link it?

brave shoal
#

dont know name because can't keep book in elder scroll online

#

was something about a dwemer, a dunmer and a nord enter a inn

uncut hatch
#

i would try to look the book up for you but i don't know enough detail to know what to look for

#

eh i'll try anyways

brave shoal
#

found it

uncut hatch
#

oh!

split iris
#

nightstoneHmm ...what did I say that was bad, bot..?

uncut hatch
#

oh did you say a bad?

split iris
#

Appearantly lol

Ill repost

#

In short, every TES book has a level of unreliability. Lets look at it from a scholarly POV. And even the author, being a Dunmer. I think it is clear that it isnt meant to be taken as a 100% factual historical event.

stark socket
brave shoal
#

oh i know, but it make the dwemer look awfully detached and apathetic to other's feeling and fate

split iris
stark socket
stark socket
split iris
stark socket
#

I would follow this description of the Dwemer mindset as well, yes.

uncut hatch
#

if dwemer aren't evil, then why does every ghost of one try to murder me in morrowind?

#

explain that alessians ||this is a joke please don't kill me||

brave shoal
#

you know which vivec sermon? i think he got like 30-40 book or something^^'

ashen dagger
#

Ghosts typically don't like people, especially living ones.

split iris
stark socket
# brave shoal you know which vivec sermon? i think he got like 30-40 book or something^^'
  1. What I think about in particular is Sermon 3 (read at least the first two together with it, to get the situation), what they do to the Netchiman's Wife, Vivec's mythological mother. Bear in mind that Vivec created this myth and that the Dwemer are the big aversary of the Velothi in anything, and to Vivec's love-teachings in particular. Still, I think this is not just our typical demonization (= the Nords in Sermon 9) and touches something real about the Dwemer; how they were beyond almost everything in their worldview of ultrasceptical misunderstanding that, when combined with Kagrenac's method, would ultimately become their doom ...
brave shoal
#

they feel like classic evil scientist that for sure in that book

stark socket
#

That's definitely part of it, yeah.

#

To their defense, and despite of everything that might be true about their alien worldview, you might also call someone like Dumac honorable by other standards. His alliance with Nerevar, then negotiations and compromise, even friendship according to most texts, practically allowed the First Council, a Golden Age for Resdayn.

plain ibex
proper ice
#

No but you can read back

brave shoal
#

just have to remember which bookshelf in some random dungeon or house you found it

proper ice
#

You don’t keep a physical copy, probs because there are alot of documents in the game, but in the menu, you can go to one of the tabs and the books are in one of them

simple spindle
proper ice
#

^

brave shoal
#

also inventory space is so small, would be a waste of space that will ruin you

plain ibex
#

Half of the fun was finding books and making a library, if only reading them passed time as that's generally what you'd do with them.

proper ice
#

Actually, you don’t even need that

uncut hatch
#

The books you can keep are ‘lorebooks’

uncut hatch
#

So unless i'm misunderstanding this, kyne/kynareth gifted men the ability to shout. So that would mean in time of meditation, anyone can shout, correct?

ocean brook
#

theoretically, anyone can learn Shouting

brave shoal
#

from what i understood,some got a natural gift, like the dragonborn, other need a lot more work (those old people on that mountain spending their entire life to learn one or two shout)

pastel sorrel
#

Anyone can learn to Shout, Dragonborn just have natural talent for it @ocean brook

ocean brook
#

right

#

and Shouting into the Fork of Horpilation makes the Thu'um sound like a dry-heaving horker 😛

plain ibex
#

Which is it? Do skeletons feel emotions or not? I'm so confused...

Screenshot_20210605-102257_Chrome.jpg Blades_2021-06-04-04-40-06.jpg
frigid willow
#

no pain only anger

white garden
#

They don't feel pain or remorse but they can still be angy

sand flume
#

could be describing anger in behaviour

#

or the loading screen could just be a mortal rumour and not necessarily fact

dusky scaffold
#

Maybe it's just in some caves the skeletons don't feel

quartz shuttle
#

In the dark corners of the world, strong negative emotions mix with pools of stagnant magic to give rise to horrible abominations. Ancient tombs and battlefields, sites of grief and pain and anger, are particulalry saturated with Dark Magic, the unstable arcane forces often animating the remains of the long dead. Driven only by the darkest of impulses, these uncontroled afronts to life seek only to inflict pain and misery on all living things they encounter.

#

No, wait... That's Warhammer again...

white garden
plain ibex
stark pewter
hardy quarry
#

Oh lord

#

Left out quite a bit of the novel scaling

stark pewter
#

I mean, despite the snarky "definitive" in the title, this wasn't intended to be a survey of every time a mile or kilometer is mentioned in lore.

hardy quarry
#

They're pretty important details. The scale of the novels is roughly consistent, and while not perfectly consistent with the PGE1's 250 mile figure (and admittedly PGE1 had a lot of contradictory evidence, though I think it's important to remember that it's only hard figure isn't too far off from the novel scale) I think it's close enough that we can easily surmise a smaller Tamriel than most would expect. I don't think anyone can reasonably suggest exact measurements, but if we can't go off of the material given where consistent, what exactly can we do?

stark pewter
#

what exactly can we do?
Pick a scale you like (sounds like for you that's the novels) and go with it, while acknowledging that contradictory information and lack of important details make one single official answer impossible.

hardy quarry
#

Tbf when do we have an official answer on almost anything? For me it's not so much about some scientifically exact and perfect answer, just the best attempt to answer the question with the material that we have. Most people don't find "choose your own scale" to be as satisfying I've found.

stark pewter
#

I've never seen a person react poorly to being given a range sources and pointing out the holes.

#

"My personal preference is X, based on source A and B. Source C implies a smaller number and source D a larger one, but since they're older and don't work as well with the amount of diversity in the setting, a Tamriel roughly the size of X is my preference."

#

As opposed to "idk, whatever you want"

hardy quarry
#

Yeah that seems reasonable. I thought you were saying something else. I'm a sources man through and through.

pastel sorrel
#

Time and space is convoluted in Lordran Tamriel.

outer sorrel
#

Breton hot air balloon, as per battlespire. Trippy.

frigid willow
#

I had a three hour debate with some people about that balloon once.

outer sorrel
#

I mean Dagon lifted a chunk of Northmoore, and said balloon was on it

frigid willow
#

There's a greater context to the debate but basically they didn't know how old some technology actually is.

outer sorrel
#

Hot air go up, that's as old as physics

split iris
#

Forbidden Breton Hotair Balloon Lore

frigid willow
#

You just need a basket and a leather sack to hold the air, you can regulate the air via a number of mundane means but the fact that magic exists in the elder scrolls actually makes it a much simpler task.

outer sorrel
#

Not like Sloads don't just inflate corpses to do it, why not a less gross way. Besides there's records of air travel going back to the merethic era. 1st era for manmade.

#

Well mer-made

frigid willow
#

Yeah I know.
That's the argument that eventually won not my "Fire makes air hot, wizard makes fire" argument.

outer sorrel
#

That too

west palm
#

I'm just happy to know that Khajiit were astronauts.

split iris
#

Pretty much almost every culture has come to show at least some void-exploration. Altmer, Redguards, Imperials, Dunmer, even Nords. Maybe not so much with the Orcs.

west palm
#

Including permanent magical moon bases?

#

That was a pretty nifty way to cap off the Elsweyr chapter.

split iris
#

Specifically upon the Moon? With Tatterdemalion, you have the Imperials as well. Spiritually, the Nords, depending how you see Sovngarde. In the future with C0DA, the Dunmer as well. Though from what we can gather, the moon-colonies were rather old, if not the oldest.

hardy quarry
#

Though with C0DA it's a possible future that may have invalidated itself as a possible future. Rather than the Dunmer, I'd point out the Dwemer and their airships. Maybe sload balloons as well. The Hist are also a great one.

split iris
#

Right, but I specifically stated those as the question had to do with the moon(s). In void travel in general, yes those are great examples!

hardy quarry
#

I like space travel in TES >.>

split iris
#

I do too haha nerevar

west palm
#

Waaait, what's C0DA?

split iris
dusky scaffold
#

short answer: DevFic

west palm
#

oooh

#

I thought it was related to the coda as an artistic concept

#

I like the idea of science-fantasy Tamriel (mostly because I have the notion of Huey-like helicopters passing beneath the canopies of the Graht-oaks, crew of your choice).

hardy quarry
#

Most of MK's space fic seems to be mostly based on concepts that were officially rejected from TES in the 90s tbh

#

It's why I can't take KINMUNE seriously at all.

#

Like it's weird when a dude declares that the canon is broken and you don't need continuity or authority, but does it as an authority figure in the space he's in.

#

And god help you if you interpret his stuff wrong (like the Dwemer). 🤣

#

C0DA is a huge mixed bag for me. On the one hand it's really great for understanding MK's other works and some of the ideas that were being used decades ago. On the other hand it's cluttered, tries to be too many things, and is built on a lot of what seem to be actual rejected concepts for TES.

#

And then of course something like that would try to suggest that the official continuity doesn't matter, because it needs it to not matter in order to be legitimate.

#

Really raises the question of how far people should accept someone who worked on a series going in relation to the work, especially if they didn't work on direct aspects of some features. It's like the Rowling effect, only worse.

#

Also can I just say I'm really really happy that the "Rowling effect" is a term now 🤣

#

It's also kind of weird how everyone forgot how C0DA was meant to be collaborative fiction, not just individualist fiction.

quartz shuttle
#

Ok, people need to stop claiming the Redguard drove the Dominion out of Hammerfell. Literally no source claims that.

#

And what was the Dominion? A mighty foe that the Redguard are acomplished to have stood against? Or a beaten enemey the bloodied Empire could have taken on? You can't freaking have it both ways.

hardy quarry
#

Sir this is a Wendys

quartz shuttle
#

Then get me a Spicy #9!

west palm
quartz shuttle
#

Seriously though, Spicy Grilled Chicken is my go-to at Wendys

ocean brook
quartz shuttle
ocean brook
#

that fact gets ignored, because Redguards can't look silly. they pull off curved swords after all

#

the important thing is, Mede was dumb, because if he wasn't, then Ulfric's an idiot

#

and if Ulfric's an idiot, the whole civil war really falls apart

sturdy apex
#

Redguards are the most interesting of the human races, can't change my mind

uncut hatch
#

i don't really think mede's an idiot.

#

as for ulfric being an idiot...he is.

ocean brook
#

well yes, he is

#

guy either didn't notice that Torygg basically worshipped him, or else he didn't care

#

either way, it doesn't bode well for his ability to do anything leadership wise - guy's head is stuck up his own arse

uncut hatch
#

ulfric's short sided. he doesn't see that kicking the empire will only help the thalmor.

ocean brook
#

yeah, big time

ocean brook
#

though, to be fair, I think it's easy for a longtime fan of the series to see how short-sighted Ulfric's being; we've witnessed Dagon mastermind a long term plan that spanned multiple games, so it's easy for us to look at the Thalmor and surmise that they're playing a long game as well

#

and we have the benefit of knowing the metaphysical implications of the ban on Talos worship

#

the Empire itself has lost much of that perspective with the fall of the Septim dynasty; there's no more Amulet of Kings, no more Blades, no more real coonnection between Man and the larger picture, save for the Elder Scrolls

#

while the Thalmor have the benefit of still knowing most everything from prior eras

timber bough
#

ulfric just doesn't really care about anything but skyrim, and his idea of caring for skyrim is putting it under his control

ocean brook
#

he's a broken man; he's clearly suffering from post war trauma, and Elenwen's further messed with his head to turn him into an unwitting agent for the Thalmor cause

timber bough
#

i don't know about post war trauma but he's clearly a very bitter man

#

we know he brutally kicked out madanach from markarth and in how much of a slaughter that resulted, which he probably justified to himself by it being in the interest of skyrim/the nords

ocean brook
#

he makes a spech to his second in command if you hang out in his throne room long enough, where he explains that he continues to fight in order to make all the deaths he's already endured mean something

#

might be my own bias showing, but it sounded to me like the sort of thing someone who couldn't let go of the horrors they'd witnessed would say

timber bough
#

it's quite possible yeah

ocean brook
#

but yeah, bitterness is definitely there; the Empire's failed him, in his eyes, and failed Skyrim

#

unfortunately, he can't see that, if not for Mede, Skyrim would be in even worse straits than it is now

slender latch
#

Sadly most people don't look that deeply into it and only focus on the rebellion aspect and want to side with him.

ocean brook
#

because they see the Empire as the bad guys

quartz shuttle
ocean brook
#

I think I know what you mean, but please elaborate?

quartz shuttle
#

The rise of certain remilitarisation amongst defeated Alliance powers, particularly in former Austria and Germany, was driven by the perception among many parts of society that all the deaths of WWI had to mean something, and that they couldn't just let them be worthless.

uncut hatch
quartz shuttle
#

War and geopolitics are complicated things, though, so trying to draw too many parallels to actual world history, and the events of Skyrim's civil war, is a dangerous game.

ocean brook
#

they do try to do that, yes, though the Empire's done a whole lot worse things back in the day - with our help, even

#

and yeah, that's what I thought you meant; agreed that we shouldn't draw too many parralels, though it's helpful I think to draw this one

quartz shuttle
#

If for no other reason than to highlight the potential dangers of certain political platforms and motivations

#

I think it's telling, too, the Ulfric doesn't convene the Moot. It's like he KNOWS the Moot has no power to select a High King, and he has to rig the system first in order to force the issue.

ocean brook
#

yeah; he's basicallty pre-conquering Skyrim, and then he "waits for the moot to make it official"

#

so hhe gets to have his cake and eat it too

quartz shuttle
#

Personally, i say Balgruf for High King

uncut hatch
#

balgruf is cool.

ocean brook
#

and he comes with his own set of issues

quartz shuttle
#

Anyone does

ocean brook
#

true

#

his seem to be more . . . family centric, at least?

brave shoal
#

ulfric playing medieval total war while balgruf is playing crusader king 2 /s

pastel sorrel
#

Oh he's absolutely playing CK2, he got that Seduction Focus going on amirite

ocean brook
#

that would be the focal point of the controversy surrounding Balgruf, yes

brave shoal
#

but also, i usually sided with ulfric or ignored the war mostly because the empire is basically roman and from my total war days and history reading i got a carthaginian bias that make romans stuff less cool to me ^^'

ocean brook
#

in my playthroughs, I've usually sided with Tulius, simply because I saw Ulfric as geting a bunch of people killed for his own political ambitions and personal grudges

quartz shuttle
#

Same.

#

But, i'm Canadian, and Ulfric's rebellion rubs me teh wrong way on a fundimental level. Rebellions never produce better outcomes

ocean brook
#

ahh

#

I'm American, myself

#

so I suppose I'm conditioned to regard rebellion with a more lenient eye - but yeah, Ulfric's just was too much for me to ignore

quartz shuttle
#

I also don't like a single one of his choices for Jarl. I don't like many of the Imperial ones, true, but Ulfrics are universally bad

ocean brook
#

oh god, yes

#

. . . who's he put in for Morthal again?

quartz shuttle
#

Sorli

#

Who actively doesn't even like her hold, and has her eyes set on taking control of Riften

brave shoal
#

i mean, siding with ulfric was also the closest i could be to siding with thalmor (even if they prefer never ending war over a clear victory)

ocean brook
#

I see . . .

quartz shuttle
#

Falkreath is the one that really gets me

#

Dengier is such a terrible choice. He was a good leader, sure, but he's very clearly suffering from early dementia

#

And having gone through that with my father, putting him in charge of ANYTHING is a major problem

brave shoal
#

i think he just need his vote for the moot, whatever happen after is secondary?

quartz shuttle
#

I think that's his general approach. Put butts on thrones that will back him, with no concern of the long term impact

brave shoal
#

the one that scare me is the one with black briar (or whatever) in riften, that bad mojo that option

ocean brook
#

she's the imperial choice

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah

#

But at the same time, she's still in charge with the Stormcloaks anyway, becayse Layla is totally useless

ocean brook
#

true

#

though Layla is, at least, honest about her allegiances

#

ie, mostly to herself and her family

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah

uncut hatch
#

What's the reasoning behind nordic tombs on solstheim having shrines to hermeus mora?

plush orchid
#

I always presumed that Miraak had a decent following size when he occupied Solstheim.

ocean brook
#

Herme Mora is a nordic deity - he's the greedy man

hardy quarry
#

Oddly enough the older I get, the more I lean Ulfric

#

It's a hard sell though. There's a lot of baggage and problems there. I think the cause is good but the planning and competency is bad, and there's a lot of corruption in the Stormcloaks

#

Not that there isn't also a lot of corruption in the Empire of course, but the Empire seems decent at effective administration

upper sable
#

Ulfric is a thalmore agent

hardy quarry
#

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

#

He's a Thalmor asset, which is different

upper sable
#

Ulfric is doomed in the civil war

#

Anyways*

hardy quarry
#

And he's a Thalmor asset because he's prolonging the war due to his own hubris. If you end the war as the Dragonborn, that makes him not an asset

uncut hatch
#

You're right. It instead weakens the empire and makes them more vulnerable to thalmor devastation.

plush orchid
#

Time is money, no money no mercenaries.

ocean brook
#

Ulfric should be clapping you on the back and going "the Dragonborn, the answer to all our prayers! Help me become High King and I'll help you become Emperor."

#

what do you see wrong with Balgruf, though?

hardy quarry
#

My issue isn't with the rebellion itself, I think the rebellion has strong moral reasons to exist. My issue is more with Ulfric and his leaders. I think of all of them only Vignar is actually good

#

And the Grey-Manes probably wouldn't be bad heirs to Whiterun, but Vignar is old and even replaces someone who is at least half-decent

#

I kind of like that there is no easy right answer here.

ocean brook
#

you have a point about Vignar; honestly, if it weren't for Ulfric, would the two old men be fighting over Whiterun?

stark socket
#

I was usually more in favor of Ulfric, because for my LDBs, literarally sitting in the same ~~boat ~~ carriage with him and the Empire trying to behead me in the first ten minutes always proved a bit too much to rationalize.

ocean brook
#

I usually figured my dragonborn was coming off a ten day hangover to discover that someone had tossed her into Ulfric's carriage 😛

hardy quarry
stark socket
#

It was quite a shock in terms of TES history & expectations as well

hardy quarry
#

But that's kind of the theme with the Empire in TES5. They've betrayed most of the people they were supposed to be loyal to. Makes the Empire a hard sell for me as well

stark socket
#

TES2: Uriel's very special agent - TES3: released from prison, special agent soon after - TES4: Emperor opens the path to freedom and trusts you to save the world - TES5: they try to kill me??

hardy quarry
#

Both are kind of a hard sell. 10 years ago-ish I would have said that I lean slightly Imperial and favor them.

#

These days I slightly lean towards the Stormcloaks.

brave shoal
#

imperial priding on their fairness and efficiency. toss you to the executioner block because it convenient...

hardy quarry
#

Hahaha

stark socket
#

Did we ever got a chance to thank Alduin for his intervention?

hardy quarry
#

No, but we should have now that you mention it

#

I wouldn't mind getting to have that kind of sass

stark socket
#

Or vice versa: "Come, Dovhakiin, let me eat this kalpa. I saved your head back then!"

#

But seriously, this would have been nice, as an option. Would have made things a tad more personal.

west palm
#

I always took a long view of things (Khajiit frequently have no other recourse, beyond robbing someone blind and throwing up on their carpet): Stormcloaks are short sighted human supremacists, who are endangering the survival of the Empire, the only organized entity that can put up a fight and foil the Dominions plans. That's why Ulfric is a useful idiot: Without Skyrim legions, a repeat of the war would be disastrous for the Empire.

plain ibex
# west palm I always took a long view of things (Khajiit frequently have no other recourse, ...

I don't like how one treaty means every Khajiit must work with the Thalmor in ESO though, it makes some sense for Redguards and the Ebonheart Pact as that's their own thing and elves are terrible aside from the dark variety but even then I can see many being impartial to the whole ordeal. If they wanted those of the same faction to look the same why not give them a uniform?

Also bad that in Skyrim you can't deal with the cause of the conflict (the Thalmor) beyond making them angy and sending kill squads after you.

sand flume
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not really sure about human supremacy in the stormcloaks

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bunch of altmer living fine in windhelm, and riften seems to lack any issues regarding racism

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ive always leaned towards the stormcloaks cause i prefer their attitude of:
living by their own terms > total destruction > living by someone elses terms

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doesnt really matter much to me if the empire is the "better" option strategically

pastel sorrel
#

You've really not been paying much attention if you haven't picked up on the overt supremacy ideals of the Stormcloaks, they outright spout them themselves.

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Even if Ulfric himself isn't much of one, his cause is full of extremists, and extremism breeds further extremism.

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The entire thing's built upon a zealous refusal of the Empire, they're not doing it because they're actually thinking the whole thing through rationally and holistically.

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Ulfric even tells us himself that he was a fool if we meet his spirit in Sovngarde, and that all he ultimately did was send up more souls for Alduin to eat.

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The notion of Skyrim going independent isn't necessarily a wrong one, but Ulfric's gone about it completely the wrong way to the point that the Empire's a lesser of two evils by quite a wide margin; i'm of the mind that they'll resolve the two possible endings of the war with Tullius and Ulfric both dying and Elisif taking over and declaring a peaceful secession of Skyrim to keep on good terms with everyone, since she's still alive and in power whoever wins in TES5.

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Torygg tells us likewise that he was perfectly willing to hear out Ulfric had he come to discuss Skyrim seceding, so the entire Stormcloak rebellion was pointless anyway.

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He's a hot-headed Thalmor patsy who's split Skyrim in twain and ground both sides to dust while the Aldmeri Dominion's breathing down everyone's necks waiting for the Great War 2: Electric Boogaloo, and they're all too happy to see a full third of the Empire's available forces get rendered combat ineffective before the war's even begun. The Nords won't get to live by their own terms for very long if they let themselves be torn apart like that.

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There's also a degree of doublethink going on, because they conveniently forget that the Empire they're so hell-bent on kicking out is the one their beloved Talos formed.

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And while it's not in the best shape anymore, it's still the same ideals.

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Also hnnnnng time to get maybe 6 hours of sleep just in time for the Monday shift

sand flume
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theres definitely an issue of racism in windhelm, however to call the stormcloaks as a whole human supremacist is too far of a stretch, even in windhelm human supremacy is far from an issue, with altmer living happily there. there are loud extremists but i dont think theyre nearly as abundant as you make them out to be.

also torygg says nothing of the sort to us, sybille tells us:

"No. Even after Istlod died, the moot voted to make Torygg High King of Skyrim. But Ulfric was at that moot, continually talking about Skyrim's independence in terms just shy of treason. I don't think Ulfric knew how much Torygg respected him for that. If Ulfric had asked Torygg directly to stand up, to declare independence, Torygg might have done it."

yes it would have been the better option for ulfric to discuss first rather than to immediately challenge him but thats very much looking at it in hindsight, looking from the POV of ulfric torygg never showed any support to his claims when he went preaching at the moot, in his POV his attempt to persuade the other jarls has already happened. he had probably mentally prepared himself to challenge the high king. and imagine if he attempts to persuade torygg and only after torygg refuses to help, he kills him, that would only look even worse for ulfric imo

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our only source on torygg supporting ulfric is someone who is both bias against ulfric and sceptical herself

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unless im missing something, then id gladly be corrected

timber bough
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it's worth noting that even if he had asked torygg and torygg would've declared his support, the actual amount of blood shed would be marginally less because several jarls express loyalty towards the empire even despite what is going on in skyrim (e.g. balgruuf)

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either way an independence movement in skyrim was in the least interest of the empire economically and in terms of manpower so it would've come to war

ocean brook
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you can meet Torygg in Sovngarde

ocean brook
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oh, least, sorry; need more caffene before attempting reading comprehension >.>

timber bough
#

no worries lol

sand flume
# ocean brook you can meet Torygg in Sovngarde

yeah but to my knowledge his only line relating to ulfric is:

"When Ulfric Stormcloak, with savage Shout, sent me here, my sole regret was fair Elisif, left forlorn and weeping. I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?"

ocean brook
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. . . although Torygg, himself, really only says "Yeah, I knew Ulfric was gonna murder me in one hit, but at least my honor's intact. Can he say the same? Alas though for my poor widow . . ."

sand flume
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doesnt suggest he wouldve supported ulfric in the slightest

timber bough
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I feel like this refers more to how hilariously unfair their "battle" was than what Torygg thinks of Ulfric's position

ocean brook
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this is where we're left resorting to the realm of speculation - and wondering, how skilled of a potential High King was Totygg

timber bough
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Even though the Stormcloaks maintain it was a fair fight, Ulfric literally used magic that only like 5 people have mastered in Skyrim at that time

ocean brook
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if Torygg had political savvy in spades, he could have given Ulfric's ideals the spin and polish he himself couldn't

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it was fair in the sense that it fullfilled the letter of the law

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like, a boxing match between you and mike tyson is fair if you're both wearing regulation boxing gloves

sand flume
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afaik as the challenged party, torygg wouldve had full right to declare the rules of the fight, including banning use of the thuum. i always imagined that torygg opted to face him fearlessly out of respect of ulfric, who in his eyes wouldnt look for ways to make the fight easier

ocean brook
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and Ulfric was looking to make a political statement

timber bough
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Ulfrics use of the Thuum suggests it was never about asserting his viewpoint but really just that he wanted Torygg out of the way imo

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Ulfric obviously didn't want to risk losing

sand flume
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ulfric already very much asserted his viewpoint in moot meetings, hes said to have made claims against the empire that border on treason long before he went to challenge torygg

ocean brook
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he was older, more experienced, and probably stronger than Torygg

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he shouldn't have been at much risk

timber bough
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Risk losing is probably the wrong term, it's more like he simply wanted to set a sign

ocean brook
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aha

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which Prisoner #29 is arguing, is what in Ulfric's mind he had already done at he moot itself

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if I understand correctly?

timber bough
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The moot is only between Skyrim's jarls and High King, yes?

sand flume
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yeah hes already made his ideals very clear to the other jarls

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according to the same source that says torygg would have listened to ulfric, at least

timber bough
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If so it makes sense he'd openly murder Torygg to further set the sign to Skyrims general population and to the empire

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Few peasants are gonna care much about a political moot but they will immediately understand a jarl killing his high king

sand flume
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fair point

ocean brook
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agreed

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so in that vein, killing Torygg is an appeal to the common man in Skyrim, a declaration that the High King - and the Empire - has failed them, and needed to be toppled

timber bough
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Its also an insanely ballsy move thatd give him the kind of reputation to stand as High King himself, even aside the whole Empire business, and it's clear from Ulfrics past that he seemingly doesn't care much for authorities above him

ocean brook
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yeah

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by this point though, Ulfric's had, what? about twenty years to build up support among the masses?

timber bough
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I'd say that shows itself pretty well in how the eastern jarls support him

ocean brook
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right

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plus, he has that whole "Bear of Markhuah" thing going

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so by the time he duels Torygg, I expect he's prety sure of his power base

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and then the Empire sends in Tulius, who somehow manages to catch Ulfric with his pants down, and only by an act of Alduin does Ulfric get away to continue the war

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. . . which in hindsight is kind of amazing

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Tulius is going into the situation in Skyrim cold, not really knowing nor caring overmuch about the local customs and politics

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and on top of that, it's a war that he Thalmor are clanedistinely doing all they can to keep the fires burning hot

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and somehow, Tulius catches Ulfric in an ambush and would have executed him then and there - which may not have ended the conflict but certainly would have been a major blow to the Stormcloaks

sand flume
ocean brook
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damn, I want hat emote

sand flume
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i may be loyal to ulfric but tullius sure is a gigachad with a massive brain, cant deny it

ocean brook
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yeah; it almost suggests to me that Tulius can basically wrap up the civil war without the player

timber bough
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Huh, alright
Elenwen demands Tullius to give over Ulfric to the Thalmor but he very sternly refuses

sand flume
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according to cut content

ocean brook
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yeah; you can see her at the execution if I recall

sand flume
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we dont know why that line of dialogue was cut from the game, so im somewhat sceptical about using it as a source

timber bough
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That combined with Tullius' general sentiment during the CW questline regarding them it seems very much like the Legion is making active preparations towards facing off against the Thalmor again and they regarded the Stormcloak rebellion as more of a roadblock than anything

ocean brook
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I was going to say, yeah, the cut line fits with what we know of both Elenwen's goals and Tulius's

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I think they may have cut it to avoid spoiling the surprise of Ulfric being a Thalmor asset oo early?

timber bough
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That or the Helgen scene was too cluttered with things going on and they didn't want to throw too much exposition at the player at once

sand flume
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couldve also been cut cause they decided they didnt like the idea of tullius straight up refusing an order from the thalmor

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but it definitely does fit yeah

sand flume
ocean brook
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that would be funny, yeah

sand flume
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always player intervention that brings about the end of the civil war scary

ocean brook
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. . . new headcanon! my dragonborn was on a ten day hangover trying to kick Ulfric's ass and accidentally kicked him all the way to Tulius

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then she was so smittern by Tulius's shirtlessness that she passed out and got mistaken for a Stormcloak

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but that very shirtlessness is why she forgives the Empire so readily 😉

sand flume
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lmao

ocean brook
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Me: WINDING BENDS KICK!
Ulfric: goes flying into the Imperial camp, landing in Tulius's bath
Shirtless Tulius: TO ARMS!

west palm
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Especially given that the Wood and High Elves aren't that bad and want to integrate. Not fond of the Dunmer, as they want to maintain their slavery, without calling it that (at least the Dres are honest and haven't joined the Pact).

sand flume
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ulfric landing in tullius' bath 😳

plain ibex
west palm
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Any Race, Any Alliance ftw.

ocean brook
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well, logically when else would he be shirtless?

sand flume
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too hot to stay in armour for long

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just sayin

plain ibex
west palm
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That said, there are bound to be more Khajiit in the Dominion, since the Confederacy is part of the Dominion as a major partner, so that's to be expected. You get enough of them outside the alliance, at the same time.

ocean brook
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yeah, that's a good point; the basic gist of the idea still works 🙂

plain ibex
# west palm That said, there are bound to be more Khajiit in the Dominion, since the Confede...

True, maybe have a description explaining the main races in each but let folks do whatever anyway just so they don't join the Dominion as an Orc and feel a little alienated without knowing beforehand. It could be funny, having an Imperial (should no longer be pre order bonus) as part of the Dominion. I'd love the option to not join a side and just quest though too as PVP isn't for me.

dusky scaffold
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You do have the option, of you're willing to buy it
And imperial is buyable as well, time for pre-order is long past

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But outside of cyrodiil PvP, alliance affects very little; you could easily headcanon your character as affiliated with one of the other alliances, it none at all

plain ibex
dusky scaffold
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Both options are available from the crown store
(Yeah, you have to make a character to access it)

plain ibex
dusky scaffold
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You can delete them immediately after, of you like

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Most of my characters are at least somewhat patriotic, so they don't have a problem with being in their native faction

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(except the ones that don't care about the war at all, that is)

coral mantle
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i emember that Bosmer military guy, dominion recruiter or something, saying "hmm, what's this stench? oh right, it's Covenant dog before me". Yeah, i played Elsweyr dlc as covenant breton. Said something rude in turn, game allowed that, thank the eight

dusky scaffold
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I've played to all DLCs and enough of the faction zones to finish cadwell's almalach on my EP dunmer

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(well, not all DLCs, still in the middle of Blackwood)

coral mantle
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Blackwood \o/ i love it. Dressed my char and Hallix in medium legion armor. We now roleplay deserters doing merc jobs. Hm, which brings another lore question

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what legion was stationed closer to leyawiin area? in the beginning of three banner war. is it still there? like, what areas should i avoid if i dont want to get crucified for treason?

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i kind of meant to research that a little..

dusky scaffold
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I haven't seen any legionaires in blackwood so far

coral mantle
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yeah they have some militia made of former legioneers, not sure if it was mentioned which

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anyways, must get back to work

quartz crane
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That's my gut feeling, anyway

coral mantle
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haven't completed it myself too. I'm thinking Bravil should have some party, probably mentioned in "the improved guide to the Empire". Gotta google.. someday..

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oh, blast it
Known Legions
Legion of the West Weald — An Imperial Legion from Colovia tasked with securing the recently-annexed South Weald for the Colovian Estates.
Legion Zero — A traitorous Imperial Legion within the Imperial City that has sworn fealty to Molag Bal, becoming Mind-Shriven.
Second Legion — Accompanied Varen Aquilarios during the Colovian Revolt, and headquartered in peacetime in the vicinity of Bruma. The Imperial War Mastiff is their mascot and symbol.
Fourth Legion — Quintia Rullus worked in the engineering auxiliary of this legion, operating trebuchets, before deserting.
Fifth Legion — Led by Captain Lampronius, who was training new recruits. The Fifth Legion Porter is named for them.
Sixth Legion — Little is known of the Sixth Legion, but former member Antonia Gratas recalls brief tales of her exploits.
Seventh Legion — One of the Imperial Legions, they have taken control of Southern Bangkorai.
Ninth Legion — Part of the first group of Imperial troops sent to Black Marsh, the legion was lost in a cave in Murkmire.
Shields of Senchal — (formerly the Thirteenth Legion) An Imperial Legion sent to help restore order after the Knahaten Flu had ravaged the area, defending the Khajiit as they rebuilt and formed a city council alongside them.
Cygnus Irregulars — A Legion grudgingly helping the Euraxians before defecting.

hardy quarry
dusky scaffold
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the great war was as devastating to the dominion as it was to the empire
and we don't know that there's more than one councilor involved in the emperor's murder

hardy quarry
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Titus Mede II is just not a good Emperor, and it's no surprise that members of the Elder Council would want him gone. In general though the Elder Council tends to seemingly not be the best at pursuing national interest

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And while the Dominion is devastated, they aren't having to fight a Civil War. They're winning right now. The Empire can't even afford to send too many troops to Skyrim, forcing General Tullius to raise more troops from the populace. It's one of the reasons he hasn't won in the first place (though the mad lad still almost did if not for divine intervention). The Empire is still actively being weakened according to Thalmor goals.

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The writing has been on the wall since TES2. With each game, the Empire gets weaker and weaker. This last time, they even betrayed their own people. I don't think they're making a comeback this time

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The reality is that no matter who you fight for in TES5, the next game will refuse to invalidate whatever the player did. So we'll get some story about how in the chaos of the fighting, Tullius and Ulfric ended up missing (at points of time unknown). Cyrodiil will move a Legion in to occupy the war-torn Skyrim, and the Empire will grow even weaker still

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And let's be real here, the Empire doesn't own its people. People own themselves. And a large amount of people decided that they didn't want to be part of the Empire.

And don't get me wrong, I don't think the Empire can just give them up. If I was them I'd try to hold on to Skyrim as well. I absolutely do think though that people who want to be free have a right to it.

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People like to bring up the fact that the abuses done to them by Thalmor Justiciars is a necessary evil to one day beat the Thalmor, but that's a decision being made for people in that region, and they aren't getting a say

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And when people don't get a say, they vote with their swords. Simple as that.

modest helm
hardy quarry
modest helm
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I mean in terms of a Pelagius who was succeeded by Katariah

hardy quarry
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The one assassinated in the Temple of the One

modest helm
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Pelagius I -> Kintyra I
Pelagius III -> Katariah I

hardy quarry
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Yeah I meant Kintyra I. Whoops.

brave shoal
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i think dominion is wasting ressources/stuck in a conflict of their own in hammerfell who strongly resist dominion's advance. its not like they the victor with no struggle while empire is humiliated and stuck in a civil war/uprising in their lands (skyrim)

hardy quarry
brave shoal
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wonder how many empire will rise and fall before they realize trying something different may be a better idea^^'

quartz shuttle
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Personally, i would prefer one last hurrah, and the formation of a Tamrielic Republic out of the ashes

brave shoal
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what they did with previous collapse? did they run classical trope like the dark age/barbarian invasion or something else?

quartz shuttle
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I prefer something else