#elder-scrolls-lore

1 messages · Page 27 of 1

hardy quarry
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I'm actually able to enjoy myself again

modest helm
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Good stuff

split iris
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My NOCTURBAL nymic is also a very very old one. But I have had pen names here and there for experimental things or things I want to distance from my main webname.

hardy quarry
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I've had a lot of people try to get me to come back

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MKult and UESP admins alike

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Less so MKult now 🤣

modest helm
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Ah, trying to get people to read the Chronicles 😉

stark socket
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Yep. Nulfaga, to be precise.

modest helm
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Indeed!

(He doesn't want to send her a magic message out of fear that Nulfaga would discover it.)

hardy quarry
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That's reasonable I suppose

stark socket
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Thx PhD, I was looking for the quote ^

hardy quarry
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Still way more secure methods. It's also unlikely that Mynisera actually had anyone to send messages herself so it'd have been a one way connection, but still doable obviously.

dusky scaffold
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pretty sure he did it because the plot needed a hook

modest helm
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Yes, and Tamriel exists because Julian needed a setting for a tabletop game

hardy quarry
stark socket
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There is this nice quote from the Redguard comic about how to begin an adventure ...

dusky scaffold
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prove it! 😛

modest helm
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Dylxexes the Younger, of the First Era, states quite clearly that an adventure can only truly begin three ways: by death, by slur, or by letter.
To begin without one of these is to be relegated to the status of an indiscretion or, at best, an escapade.
Properly then do we embark, our foundation laid with the last, and best, of the three: the letter, invariably the most seductive catalyst of all--
--and thus the most powerful.
hardy quarry
stark socket
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or by letter

hardy quarry
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I mean if we're making meta arguments, it kind of loses its power since Redguard came after

ocean brook
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little late here, but yeah, that's exactly why I never changed my name

hardy quarry
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I'm more interested in the in-universe stuff

ocean brook
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just in case someone needed to track me down

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. . . kind of weird considering how much people worry about their online privacy these edays

dusky scaffold
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so, morrowind starts with the emperor's letter, oblivion with uriel's death, and skyrim with lokir's?

stark socket
hardy quarry
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Which was a bad idea, clearly

modest helm
hardy quarry
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Quite a genius that Uriel

stark socket
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Ok, but they encrypted the letter for Caius.

hardy quarry
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So then why didn't they do that for Mynisera? 🤣

stark socket
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On the other side, an encrypted loveletter is only half as embarassing ^^ - this leads the whole disguise ad absurdum.

modest helm
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Tamriel's Vigenère only created the cipher after 3E 405

hardy quarry
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Real answer? The Blades organized Caius' correspondence and Uriel probably organized his own correspondence

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Big difference in results there

modest helm
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True. He couldn't trust anyone, not even his close personal friend the Agent, to tell them what was really in the letter. Would he trust someone else to encrypt the letter for him and trust that Mynisera would know how to decrypt it herself?

stark socket
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wasn't this from Glabrio Bellienus? His majesty's secretary?

ocean brook
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thing is, even if Uriel's letter had been encrypted, it still would have reached the wrong Queen - who may well have tossed it aside anyway, leaving it up for Grotwog to recover and codebreak

hardy quarry
modest helm
# stark socket wasn't this from Glabrio Bellienus? His majesty's secretary?

First described by Giovan Battista Bellaso in 1553, the cipher is easy to understand and implement, but it resisted all attempts to break it until 1863, three centuries later.
...
In the 19th century the scheme was misattributed to Blaise de Vigenère (1523–1596), and so acquired its present name.
Seems so.

hardy quarry
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Uriel should have sent a mutual friend of his and Lysandus from court

modest helm
ocean brook
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but yeah, if his paranoia was that acute, he was screrwed no matter what

hardy quarry
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Idk he trusted Ocato

stark socket
hardy quarry
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I don't think that's the tragedy of Uriel VII. I think his tragedy is that he makes bad decisions

ocean brook
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"Ocato, go loom your Altmer forehead at Daggerfall's Queen for me; I got a letter to send her."

hardy quarry
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The Crimson Dome Templars wanted to kill Uriel for a reason. He was clearly weak blood.

stark socket
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*Talos Cult you mean?

modest helm
hardy quarry
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Talos Cult, sorry

hardy quarry
slender latch
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Well we know from Skyrim that courier will go to the ends of the earth to deliver a letter. Really the only mistake Uriel made was saying Queen of Daggerfall

stark socket
hardy quarry
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You guys make me want to retake all my old Army security awareness classes even though I hated them because this doesn't sound sane to me

ocean brook
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true

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and, well, Tamriel wasn't exactly sane during this period

dusky scaffold
ocean brook
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cleaning up Tharn's handwork, squabbling provinces, etc

hardy quarry
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Well it's about the a priori conclusion that Uriel was actually good at this job

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And really, I don't think this bears out at all anywhere

split iris
hardy quarry
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He wasn't some good king that bad things just kept happening to

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Uriel dug his own grave over and over

ocean brook
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I think the argument is more "he couldn't have hoped to do much better than he did" than "he was super good at his job"

hardy quarry
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I've already explained things he could have done though

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Sure hindsight is 20/20, but it's the fact that problems in his reign kept coming up. Catastrophic ones

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And what makes something good or bad is frankly how successful it is or how well it handles the problems that come up

stark socket
hardy quarry
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But Uriel just about destroyed the Empire. The Septim lineage issue might be his worst mistake

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Just because it's understandable or relatable doesn't really make it excusable

ocean brook
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what did Hasphat say, agasin?

modest helm
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Caius and I always argue over the role of the individual in history. Is the individual shaped and controlled by history? Or can an exceptional individual shape history? Are individuals carried in the stream? Or do they dam and divert the flow? I say Tiber Septim changed the world. Caius says that Tiber Septim was a product of his time, and if he hadn't lived, some other person would have served his function. What about you? Are you going to change the world? Or just be carried by the flow?

ocean brook
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ooh

stark socket
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What Ph.D quoted. Our thoughts & quotes seem to align in varla speed.

ocean brook
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hah

hardy quarry
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Gonna be that guy. Hasphat is wrong.

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Not that Tiber wasn't a product of his time, but that's way too reductive. Which is actually Hasphat's gimmick.

modest helm
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You mean Caius?

slender latch
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Hasphat was wrong a lot. He was also a skooma addict

pastel sorrel
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@hardy quarry Caius, not Hasphat

hardy quarry
stark socket
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my mistake ^

split iris
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I was about to say lol

modest helm
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You're not wrong. I do think it would have made more sense for the sides to be reversed on that argument :p

hardy quarry
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My brain just misfired

ocean brook
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welp, I'm lost now; who's saying what? 😛

split iris
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Caius and Hasphat are 1 and 1, with Serithi as the Witness to tell the diff

ocean brook
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pffft

stark socket
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Hasphat: "Tiber Septim changed the world." Caius: "Tiber Septim was a product of his time, and if he hadn't lived, some other person would have served his function."

ocean brook
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thanks

modest helm
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Hasphat, as the contrarian historian who denounces popular conception, would probably make more sense as the one who refutes Great Man theory

ocean brook
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I say, Tiber Septim changed the product of his time from jungle to forest

stark socket
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haha

weak solstice
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ah Hasphat, the famous Tribunal-denialist

split iris
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Jungle Cyrod, nerevar forget

ocean brook
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lol

slender latch
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Hasphat had a bunch of misconceptions during the early TES forum RPs.

hardy quarry
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I'mma just take my grumpiness elsewhere for a bit I think.

pastel sorrel
ocean brook
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😦 sorry if we made you feel out of sorts, Lorebeard

slender latch
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You should look up his Moarmer post to see how wacky he could get

stark socket
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I might not have added it to the library yet. Of the 17 posts hasphat made to the old forums only 6 survived. It was one of the surviving ones

stark socket
weak solstice
slender latch
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I don’t have anything others can’t access I used way back machine for 90% of my archives

weak solstice
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can you do searches on the wayback machine?

hardy quarry
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Alright I'm done REEEing in my corner lmao

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The point I was trying to make is that the issue isn't that Uriel Septim used a courier, or even that he didn't put the right name on the letter (which is also bad). The issue is that Uriel didn't do something that's actually pretty obvious to do if you stop and think about it

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For example, I've been reading about some Roman history and it was common to send messages with people that the person knew, especially if it was urgent or intimate

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I know Medieval Europe did this a lot too. Japan too. Probably China as well. Basically you have a mutual ally show up to visit for a sabbatical or for some other matters, and then they secretly give the messages.

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And yes that is the exact kind of care I would expect for a time-breaking god robot. They were right to not use a method like dreamsleeve communication but that doesn't make the method they did use good. The risks are just too great.

sand flume
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why not dreamsleeve out of curiosity

hardy quarry
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And while couriers might be frequently reliable, this is again a security risk and clearly they aren't perfectly reliable

hardy quarry
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frosty sentinel
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you want even more cool ideas on how this can look even worse? there's a good chance a matter like that was discussed beforehand with the elder council

sand flume
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fair

hardy quarry
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Anyways if the conversation is that Uriel could feel justified in his methods, the answer is no. It's clearly no. Look at the results.

If the conversation is that he had no mutual allies.....then he has bigger problems because a courier shouldn't be a closer ally

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That's something he could have considered showing up himself for then

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But I don't buy that he lacked allies. He obviously does have them

frosty sentinel
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not warhaft for sure

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warhaft is in oblivion to this day 💃

stark socket
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He sent a "Knight of the Dragon" (although this likely refers to Daggerfall's order, right?)

hardy quarry
modest helm
hardy quarry
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He thought the Knight had it delivered so they could do it personally or something. Can't remember

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It is a DFall order yes

modest helm
stark socket
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Yes. Basically their liaison officer (with the double meaning, I guess ^^)

hardy quarry
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I don't think they were wrong to trust a knight for the record

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It's just the process of getting it there that is like "dude why?!"

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And as Ben mentioned, not even getting the name on the letter fully filled out

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It's meme tier planning

pastel sorrel
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Well after all, how can Uriel's enemies know his plans if he doesn't even know what he's doing

hardy quarry
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You know it'd be pretty funny if it had happened that way

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Wouldn't even be bad. Better lucky than good, honestly.

No disasters? No problem. 😎

frosty sentinel
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i'd go so far as to say that tharn was one of the main reason sly uri fell down and dropped all of his spaghetti later on

stark socket
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The question is what kept Uriel from sending a Blades commando to finish Lord Woodborne, who was in possession of the Totem, at an earlier point (they did this later, but then it was already too late: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Totem,_Totem,_Who_Gets_the_Totem%3F). Why did he chose the indirect path of a letter to Daggerfall? I guess it was simply that Woodborne was still in the highest favor at the court of Wayrest.

frosty sentinel
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life of uriel septim mentions how uriel used tharn's counsel a lot in his early ruling years and how many of his successes with handling the empire are actually shared successes. and then he gets betrayed by that guy, imagine the scope of bamboozlement

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i would have never recovered from that

hardy quarry
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To be just a little charitable to Uriel...do you think he was trying to ferret out traitors?

frosty sentinel
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hey that would be completely fair for him

hardy quarry
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It seems like Woodborne had some manpower and they may have wanted to resolve it with a less paramilitary response, and maybe also see who is talking to Woodborne

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Part of Uriel's gimmick post-Simulacrum seems to be trying to resolve things with covert intelligence

modest helm
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Now if only Uriel acted with overt intelligence...

split iris
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Dragonblooded foresight is alas 20/20

west palm
coral mantle
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Fellas. Question i meant to ask long ago. TES writers love the line... Writing from memory, something about "transliminal translocation isn't possible without hyperagonal medium" or something? From Liminal Bridges? So a while back i've been browsing TIL and found some pre-Oblivion, like years pre, fanfiction written in science-y style, pretty similar to Liminal Bridges.
Was Bridges a node to that fan?

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Um, i might get a link or two if needed..

weak solstice
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what's the pre-Oblivion thing

coral mantle
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actually, i googled a bit and it seems i found it... Only it's dated bloody 2012. Can't be *- * Nothing else like it though so maybe i was tired then. Yeah, just tired

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wait, can't post links? Odd. It's called Codex Hyperagonalis and i hope it's not the one i found back then

slender latch
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As far as I’m aware it isn’t a reference that is known.

coral mantle
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Oh well. yeah, read comments to that Codex and now i'm sure it's the one. Don't know why i remember it as pre-Oblivion

azure heath
stuck magnet
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lmao

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someone do this but Dragur as "Ghouls or something idk i never played Fallout"

azure heath
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Lore war!

coral mantle
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shoot

stark socket
coral mantle
oblique moon
slender latch
# stark socket Did I miss a new discovery? Hasphat on Maormer?

Sorry for the late reply. Here is one of Hasphat Antabolis's earliest posts.

"What's in the PGE is the long and short of it. I was overcome by a brief flirtation with the cultures of the Maomer after a colleague of mine on the mainland sent me a collection of jelly-stones he found in an abandoned water-mock temple of the original Aldmeri shore-tower masons. The stones were possessed of a remarkable aftertone process, whose tendencies ran towards the sorrow spectrum, not unlike those mentioned in the minutes of the Orgnum conference during last year's Moth Assembly. Where was I..?

How I do miss Cyrodiil. I have been too far away; even the skooma visions have lost their power (though none of their degenerative effects on my tuning bone) to help me remember those lovely lads in the Two Tibers Make Something of It Phalanx or the bug-bearded creation shepherd who headed the research department.

Mm, we were talking about the chimeric Maormer, weren't we? I'm sorry, my native belly-guest has arrived with snakes in her mouth. Whatever could that mean?"

From: https://web.archive.org/web/20020703091609/http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Board=UBB4&Cat=&Number=241356&fpart=&o=0&page=5&sb=5&view=collapsed

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I'm still in the process of checking more posts for content but eventually this will all find it's way onto the library.

ocean brook
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wow; reads like MK-Lite 😛

old lantern
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Ever notice that Nirn as a whole looks alot like a game disc?

9841891c4c7c113602fcc4219c90aede.png
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Just thought that was interesting.

modest helm
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Julianos Cennan: ANUMIDUM!
My colleagues have already pointed out Hasphat's Imperial loyalties. And, of course, it is in the best interests of the Septim Regime to scorn the Two Tiber Theory of our Heresy. Or, rather, to fear the notion that the One True Tiber Septim is of a blood that would render theirs illegitimate.
The Warp continues in the West, and not even the Blades can help their precious Empire of lies. Era's end awaits.
All hail Arctus Underking! All hail the Brass God!
ANUMIDUM!

slender latch
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Yep all the old RPs and in character posts where all connected. From Redguard Forum Madness all the way up to the Trial of Vivec they all reference each other in different ways.

modest helm
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This is amazing work you're doing, Benefactor

slender latch
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Sadly there are around 20-25 posts missing. Around 10 each from Divayth Fyr and Hasphat.

old lantern
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Wait a minute. They say the Tower- Aurbis, is shaped like a wheel.

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Turn a disc sideways and it looks like a tower

analog birch
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The wheel it’s self used all over the series honestly

stark socket
old lantern
analog birch
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I mean was the creation wheel that important in the elder scrolls universe?

stark socket
stark socket
modest helm
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The Arcturian Schism: Nibenese Brass Cult vs Nord Esoterics, maybe

modest helm
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Perhaps "The Arcturian Heresy" is a heresy among Arcturians

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I wonder how much of the difference may be attributed to changes in ideas over development and how much can be attributed to the situation in which the book proper was written...

stark socket
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Who is more heretic? The heretic or the heretic who splits off from it?

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I think what we lack most is a fully fleshed out Brass Cult "Talos ae Numidium" theory: that Talos is the Colossus. There was speculation about it, and MK supported the notion - but it never found a definite textual form (and it's ofc not the only Tiber heresy that is only ever hinted at).

modest helm
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May be a bit of a stretch. According to RGFM, "the Arcturian Heresy" is indeed the name of the "mainstream heresy" that these Nibenese brass cultists seem to worship. Still, I'd find it interesting for the different Arcturian heresies to coexist.

modest helm
stark socket
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Btw are the agents of the Underking in the west (TES2) also arcturian cultists?

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And yet another aspect: maybe the Underking had different servants in the first century, when he meddled with tiberian succession politics before he disappeared, than in the late fifth century with all the crisis cults and religious creativity of that period ...

modest helm
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That's what I wondered, if the Arcturians were meant to be a continuation of that faction. I was inclined to say "no", but some of the more obscure writing (from the beta) gives them (then the "Disciples of the Underking") a decidedly more religious bent...

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But know you this, [player's first name]: only He whose heart is the heart of Numidium, and whose power is the power of Numidium knows how His power may be used.
We hope that you have learned in our company that we are not the monsters others would have us be. We have no other ambition that bringing peace to our master. When the Underking is at peace, so then shall peace come to the Iliac Bay.

stark socket
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For example "Arctus advises against the move but Septim covets the Ebony in Morrowind, as he sorely needs a source of capital to rebuild Cyrodiil after 400 years of war."

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That's far from "All hail Arctus Underking! All hail the Brass God!"

modest helm
# stark socket And yet another aspect: maybe the Underking had different servants in the first ...

Perhaps. I always thought that he needed the "agents" because he was too sapped of strength after the battle with Numidium to act on his own, though later lore (his involvement with Pelagius; his curse on Sancre Tor) seems to cloud that perspective. (Could be that he retreated to his tomb some time into the Third Era and started accruing agents instead of immediately beginning hibernating as the popular belief goes.)

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I don't know if we're given a timeframe on when the "agents of the Underking" begin acting, but it seems to have been a while by 3E 405. I am still tempted to draw a distinction between the agents of the Underking (who seem more mundane and political and may have had no idea of the Underking's true identity beyond that he was a force to be reckoned) and the Arcturians (who seem to be a post-Underking phenomenon), though not convinced one way or the other.

modest helm
stark socket
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Something like Mankar's obliviography ...

modest helm
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Just for fun, thought I'd throw in (what I believe is) the only in-universe examination of The Arcturian Heresy (thanks to B for asking this great question!):

B:
I would agree that the Dwemer were fascinating, and to a great extent, their history still is. I find stories of the Brass God extremely interesting. There is mention of the original Brass God being seen by Kagrenac and the Enantiomorph. I was wondering if any of you could tell us more about the Enantiomorph, or as they are known individually, Zurin Arctus and Talos. Many believe Zurin Arctus was the Underking, but "The Arcturian Heresy" seems to cloud that perspective, hence the word "heresy". Would any of you care to enlighten us on the relationship of Arctus and Talos and the Enantiomorph?
Baloth-Kul:
You find that interesting? I do not. In the least.
Waughin Jarth:
Well, "The Arcturian Heresy" is a bit of a joke right? Who wrote it, do you think? I've never heard any history so, well, neither formal nor poetic, I guess you would say, conversationally written. I mean, in battle, Zurin Arctus 'takes them on'? As a theory, it's certainly less interesting than the idea that Zurin Arctus was the Underking, and the great tragedy of life is how often the less interesting turns out to be true, so perhaps it's not fiction.
Carlovac Townway:
Let me begin by saying -
S'Reddit:
This is the central action of my client's book "2E 896: The Last Year Of The Second Era". I think you should wait for the publication of that to hear his opinion... It's somewhat involved... But fascinating...
Interview With Three Writers

slender latch
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If only Ted would have wrote 2E 896 the last year of the second era

modest helm
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How great would an alternate perspective on those events have been

stark socket
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I would have loved reading this as much as everyone, but I think a historical novel of 2920's calibre would have quickly overshadowed all the mythical ramifications in discussion on Tiber.

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What I miss even more is a proper Tiberian Orthodoxy.

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Stuff like the Song of Tiber Septim from PGE1.

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Because at this point, the Heresy has long become the new Orthodoxy (at least in community discussion).

modest helm
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I always wondered how exactly Tiber Septim became a Divine. What are the ramifications of such an act on Tamrielic society. Anything like the Breton "quest-obsession" where aspiring young Cyrodiils are told they too may be venerated for their great acts in life?
My idea was that the "Cult of Tiber Septim" (according to PGE1, a Nibenese hero cult; according to TES3, a Nordic hero cult) simply gained plenty of prominence after the Emperor's death. Certainly, much more is mythic about it than that, but all the myth is basically heresy that only we the community know, as you say. I doubt the average citizen thinks it was that Hjalti the Early-Beard ascended by way of mantling and soul-stacking.

split iris
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Well, at least the Vehkian Sect of the AlmSiVi treated hir ascension as "you too can be a god when you 'venture valiantly!" I can see a Tiberian cult teaching the same.

stark socket
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The classics offer lots and lots of inspiration that is still mostly unusued in TES, only hinted at with the Song in PGE1: stuff like Vergil's Eclogue IV, or Ovid's last Metamorphoses chapter, talking about the apotheosis of Caesar, or all the Augustus praise in Vergil's Aeneid. And some sort of mytho-historical destiny to become a god, as foretold in the Scrolls, would be evoked for Tiber as well (just like Vivec's ascendence is both determined and won by his own talent, according to Sermons).

analog birch
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To become a god I’d say a good part of it definitely has to do with influence like how many people actually worship you and such

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split iris
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Stendarr (God of Mercy): God of the Nine Divines, Stendarr has evolved from his Nordic origins into a deity of compassion or, sometimes, righteous rule. He is said to have accompanied Tiber Septim in his later years. In early Altmeri legends, Stendarr is the apologist of Men.

stark socket
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The pattern of the two shield-thane brothers, accompanying [guess who], obviously.

slender latch
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I always liked the idea that Talos only became a god after the events of Daggerfall with the warp allowing him to.

split iris
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The Varieties of Faith overall are very Tiber-centric, like he is also credited with opening Ancestral Moth cults to Julianos for Elder Scroll safekeeping

split iris
modest helm
stark socket
modest helm
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My sister is a devotee of the conqueror gods Reman and Talos, not the love goddess Dibella.
Worth noting that Talos worship dates back to at least 3E 99 according to Jarth.

hardy quarry
old lantern
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Speaking of maps

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I wish there were more continents explored on nirn

analog birch
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I mean the thing about really loved series is devs don’t know their really loved so they don’t exactly get plan everything out immediately

versed flax
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I have a question

hardy quarry
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What's the question?

versed flax
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So I've heard that Mundus and Oblivion are basically dreams created by a sleeping mystical god

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I also heard that Chim related to this

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But it is proven in any official book or game?

hardy quarry
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Alessian Order stuff, several dev texts, an in-game book in TES3 supposedly written from the perspective of the Godhead, and the 36 Sermons themselves

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And also the Anuad

versed flax
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So when, or if, that God Godhead wakes up, all of Mundus and other realms cease to exist?

hardy quarry
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Supposedly

uncut hatch
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its like azathoth rules

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gotta play a little flute to keep him dreaming

versed flax
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Interesting. Thank you for the answers!

ocean brook
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though on one level, so long as we still dream of Tamriel, it will never disappear, even if the Dreamer awakens; we'll all collectively dream it back

hardy quarry
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Well

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The problem is that there isn't a difference really Loranna, since everyone is the Dreamer

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If the Dreamer wakes up that means everyone in the universe just did too

ocean brook
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so "waking up" becomes "leaving the game behind for good"?

hardy quarry
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That's actually the fear in some of the dev texts (I want to say "Eat the Dreamer?). There's a fear that zero-summing will wake the godhead

hardy quarry
versed flax
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Well, that kind of puts off the weight of our actions in the games if it all can be wiped away

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But it still fascinates me nevertheless

hardy quarry
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Well keep in mind, we don't actually know what happens

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Idk that it removes the weight. We don't even know if the Dreamer can wake up

uncut hatch
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im assuming its like azathoth where when he wakes up everything stops existing

simple spindle
ocean brook
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that's not necessarily how it might work

hardy quarry
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We know individuals can wake up, but then they return to the unconscious dream and fade. We don't know that the Dreamer is physically capable of doing more than dreaming

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There's a whole drowned lamp/forced imprisonment thing going on there

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The Dream itself is the pieces of the Dreamer shattered into bits and then mutated into so many new forms that it probably wouldn't even be the same if you could point the bits together

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It's highly possible he can't wake up. There's no telling.

modest helm
west palm
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I have to ask, what is the Godhead?

split iris
#

The Godhead is usually used synonymous with the Dreamer.

In the real world, Godhead is the nature of divinity

proper ice
#

It’s basically that but in depth, it’s someone who has achieved AMARANTH and ushered a new dream

#

There’s more to it, like alot more but I’m not sure if it was a very elaborate theory or actually oog from MK, I think it was a fanmade theory tho

#

If you want, I can try and remember to explain it

coral mantle
#

have you read 'billy milligan's minds", Tangaziel? remember how his personalities kept him, the 'host' from awakening because he tried suicide several times? so uuuuuh, Elder Scrolls, the world of elders scrolls, Aurbis, is believed to exists in such a mind of Godhead, some sleeping "thing" that's better not to wake

#

and 'gods', Anu and the rest, they're like self-aware personalities of a schisophreniac. yay.

#

it's not like, straight, 'canon', it's mostly forum thing, but several in-game books hint on this stuff

proper ice
#

I remember there being a note that was implied to be the godheads thoughts

coral mantle
#

i wouldn't believe it

proper ice
#

Oops, meant to say theorized, mb

coral mantle
#

was there empty skooma bottle near that note?

proper ice
#

Exclusive potion of shadow

sand flume
#

The rest is vulgar fiction, attempts to impose order on the consensus mantlings of an uncaring godhead.

slender latch
#

Found in three locations. In a shack under bowthiah’s pillow book, in the ocean in a bottle, and in the trader for ravenrock

sand flume
#

name of the book even references dreams

coral mantle
#

oh my, and i thought nobody mentions 'godhead' in game

proper ice
#

Or mantling directly lol

modest helm
#

The word "godhead" is mentioned by Darkest Darkness, but in a different context (referring to the "Triune godhead" of Almsivi, which is more the IRL definition of godhead)

coral mantle
#

and while we're at it, what's Amaranth? i'm not sure i get it

sand flume
#

my understanding is that its becoming the dreamer/godhead

proper ice
#

Basically it’s when you achieve a new kind of enlightenment and spawn a new dream

#

Sermons 37 and C0DA go over it

sand flume
#

the idea is that the dream is potentially unstable as anu might be able to wake up at any time, this is because anu exists outside the dream. to reach amaranth would mean that the source of the dream would be within the dream, bringing the dream as a whole to stability as no one could wake the dreamer from the "outside"

#

^^ my understanding which might be totally wrong

#

im not exactly confident in this topic

proper ice
#

I heard from a lorenerd friend who’s REALLY into this stuff that the current dream is unstable but not from Anu waking up, instead because it was born of conflict and as such is imperfect and riddled with suffering and conflict

coral mantle
#

is this what Vivec 'might' do in 5th era? reached stability? been a while since i read that and, well, it's cryptic

ocean brook
#

sermon 37?

split iris
#

The current world is the Dream of Betrayal. C0DA inspires a Dream of Love.

proper ice
#

The unreleased sermon, it’s in ESO I think, I could be wrong

#

Yeah^

coral mantle
#

ESO has 37th, yes

stark socket
# split iris The Godhead is usually used synonymous with the Dreamer. In the real world, God...

Godhead/Dreamer seem to shift in between a philosophical concept like Brahman (from, like, 3500-year-old Vedas) and ideas of an alien, most distant God in gnostic teachings (meaning the highest entity above the demiurg) and spec fiction inspirations (like Dunsany's Mana-Yood-Sushai) that might have influenced the Anuad. And it is garnished with a tad of TES weirdness: "so as not to wake the unsleeping smack of insect scruple".

split iris
#

Very much so

proper ice
#

It reminds me of azathoth to a point as well

stark socket
#

Azathoth might be Herma-Mora's lucid take on this. With tentacles. ^^

proper ice
#

I mean, practically everything had tentacles in there lol, he reminds me more of Yog-Sothoth

coral mantle
#

btw, what's the latest word on Talos? what dark net forums say about this thing?

#

i'm curious if Talos as antagonist of TES 6 is discussed

proper ice
#

No clue, probs still forcing abortions

#

Oh you mean for the next game, not lorewise, uh, still don’t know, doubt we will for a bit unless more info is released

coral mantle
#

well yeah, i mean lore

frigid willow
proper ice
#

Barenziah, it’s in the real barenziah

#

So close in that they’re related but no, that happened way before Karliah lol

frigid willow
#

Yeah sorry it's been a minute since I read the books

coral mantle
#

okay, my humble theory. Only two fellas achieved CHIM, right? Vivec and Septim. We know Vivec managed his godhood well, but what about Talos. What iiiiiif.. What if IT becomes unstable by the time of TES 6 and needs to be stopped? What iiiiif Thalmor knew about it and are already actively trying to stop it? by banning its worship for starters

frigid willow
#

I thought there was some obscure lore about Talos going around aborting elf babies or something.

ocean brook
#

Vivec lost his godhood; he never actually attained CHIM

proper ice
#

I myself think he did, but that it does not grant power, it’s enlightment, I’m of the mind that you get the power on the journey to CHIM

coral mantle
ocean brook
#

BGS?

coral mantle
#

Bethesda, i mean

#

yeah, i don't make much sense x) sorry

ocean brook
#

as I understand it, Bethesda didn't tell MK to write that piece; he wrote it on his own

coral mantle
#

yup, that's why it's not canon. But, there's MK's cult in TES fandom, so his stuff is as good as canon

ocean brook
#

that . . . is perhaps not the best view to take. MK's status among the fans won't matter iof Bethesda decides to take the series in a different direction from prior games

frigid willow
#

They have contradicted him before and he's even defended their ability to do so.

coral mantle
#

some of his post-Morrowind writings did become canon, so.. Like, expedition to the moons in Remans era from some obscure forum post. BGS included it in Oblivion's PGI

ocean brook
#

some, yes

#

not all

coral mantle
#

or that 'for i love you, red legions! to thee i give this land!" or something

#

anyways

proper ice
#

The Many-Headed Talos, yeah

coral mantle
#

i'm not a cultist myself, btw. For me his stuff isn't canon untill it comes to the games.. But it comes eventually x)

frigid willow
#

but you gotta think.
as more games come out there will inevitably be a clash between the story Bethesda wants to tell and some obscure MK lore and MK lore will lose.

coral mantle
#

weeeeeeell, don't wanna be grim, but nobody's getting any younger <.< i don't expect TES 7 from the same team, frankly

frigid willow
#

Todd Howard gained an extra year of life for every copy of Skyrim sold. he'll outlive us all.

coral mantle
#

ah, also, Lawrence Shick, former ESO's loremaster, said it bluntly - MK's stuff is canon for ZOS team

frigid willow
#

I don't think you take my meaning

#

If MK's lore proves to be an issue with the story they're trying to develop they're far more likely to ignore it.

coral mantle
#

or not \o/ i think it's 50-50 for us, no point in arguing

frigid willow
#

I dunno dude.
I'm primarily a Fallout fan and it's been my experience that Bethesda will usually pick the new story over the old if they're made to choose.

#

and yeah you're right MK's work is kept on a pedestal but a lot of the people who make those decisions knew Kirkbride personally. Some were even his friends. As you said sooner or later those people are going to be replaced, that reverence which is at least partially born of personal attachment isn't guaranteed to last through such a transition.

sand flume
#

who we have in game

#

Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter.' 'I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.

#

it misses

And after the throne of Alinor did finally break at the feet of Men, and news of it came to the Dragon Emperor in Cyrodiil, he gathered his captains and spoke to them, saying:

"'You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle

but he says the important bits

uncut hatch
#

is it ever stated how soul gems are used? and when a soul gem is used, does a person in the soul cairn disappear? or are they trapped there forever even after the soul gem is used?

sand flume
#

im fairly sure the soul is contained within the gem, then as the soul gem is used the animus of the soul goes to the enchantment whereas, in the case of black soul gems, the memory of the soul ends up in the soul cairn

uncut hatch
#

what exactly is an animus?

sand flume
#

afaik animus is the actually useful energy part of the soul where memory is the personality and well memories

uncut hatch
#

ah.

#

but how is a soul gem used? like do you crush it? rub it against the item? afaik it's not stated, i can't seem to find it anywhere on uesp.

#

You can eat a soul gem to gain its memories

#

What if soul gems are like salt crystals so you have to crush them and sprinkle them all over the thing your enchanting?

sand flume
uncut hatch
#

that's the most logical thing to me. is crushing them.

sand flume
#

then how do you explain using azuras star?

#

you sure dont crush that to use the soul within

uncut hatch
#

hmm... idk... i guess it being a daedric artifact, maybe it acts differently opposed to a normal soul gem.

sand flume
uncut hatch
#

ah... then i guess that answers the question.

uncut hatch
#

Is azura’s star like a starfish where it gets rid of a leg then grows a new one?

sand flume
#

well i dont think the actual soul gem becomes part of the item anyways, i think its talking about melding the soul with the item, it says "The enchantment will use this soul as a source of power", so i think in this process of "melding" normal soul gems naturally break apart whilst azuras star for obvious reasons is resistant to the breaking part

#

otherwise are you also physically melding more soulgems into a weapon when you recharge it? or are you just extracting the souls magical energy which as a result destroys the gem

hardy quarry
uncut hatch
#

sorry i was kinda in a weird mood at the time >_>

hardy quarry
#

Man you gotta stop apologizing all the time lmao

#

You brought up something interesting, I was just responding to it

uncut hatch
#

oh ok. i can't see emotion in text

sand flume
#

does soul trap and the soul gem not capture the entire soul?

dusky scaffold
#

AFAIK the actual soul goes to the soul cairn, only the energy stays in the soul gem

hardy quarry
#

When you just rip that out you don't get all the memories or anything

sand flume
#

ah i see

hardy quarry
#

Daedric spirits are special since all that stuff is bound together better

sand flume
#

mb for being misinformative then

hardy quarry
#

Their animus don't tend to go anywhere without their identity

split iris
#

If we split the soul into three: Energy, Persona, and Memory (as is a take)
Soul gems appear to usually utilise the energy part.

hardy quarry
#

Nah nah you were great man. I'm just adding on to it

sand flume
#

👌

hardy quarry
#

I'm less contradicting and more getting into the nuance

#

I don't think the theory of the three part soul holds up too well tbh

#

Evidence seems to better support a two part theory

sand flume
#

so addressing the original question, when a soul is absorbed by a black soul gem the persona/memory goes straight to soul cairn immediately and stays there permanently regardless of what happens to the soul gem?

dusky scaffold
#

that's what it seems like

hardy quarry
#

And then some is left in the body

sand flume
#

i see

hardy quarry
#

Which is why if you perform necromancy they will respond to you a bit

sand flume
#

oohhhh cool

hardy quarry
#

But it's no doubt with brain damage and other problems

#

Nothing reverts to how it was, obviously

split iris
# hardy quarry I don't think the theory of the three part soul holds up too well tbh

Some do usually put Memory and Persona together, yes, but the way I see it, who have the Energy part as Magic used for, say Enchanting. Persona as the identity which go to afterlives or soul cairns or sleeves of dreams or what have you. As for Memory, well, water. The reason I say this is specifically due to a phenomenon we see with Dunmer Ancestor ghosts. You see them, when summon, as years go by, their memories lessen and weaken (until they just become mindless spirits), yet their persona is still there.

hardy quarry
#

I think it's a container

split iris
#

Well yes, not literally as in the soul is wet lol.

dusky scaffold
#

memories go into the water when someone dies

split iris
#

It is indeed a container

sand flume
#

i thought that the dreamsleeve is what turns the soul into water lol

uncut hatch
#

i always thought memories became water

hardy quarry
#

Water appears to be the bioalchemical agent for AE

dusky scaffold
#

"No point hiding it now … when a mortal dies, where do you think their memories go?
Don't bother guessing. I'll tell you—they go into the water. They become water. All the memories of Tamriel's history are stored in its waters."

hardy quarry
dusky scaffold
uncut hatch
split iris
dusky scaffold
uncut hatch
#

ok?

hardy quarry
#

Water is not memories, it is a carrier for memory/identity

#

Like if you cry you aren't getting amnesia

split iris
sand flume
#

aight 👌 so what actually does the dreamsleeve do, do you mind explaining what you mean by cycling and transfer of the soul?

hardy quarry
#

Reincarnation

sand flume
#

ahhhhh

#

fair

uncut hatch
#

i need to look up that quest again because there was a whole thing about a water spirit stealing peoples memories to make her home not be a desert

split iris
#

Pretty much, a big meta-energy recycler

hardy quarry
#

Is that all the person is? Nah

#

But if you consider muscle memory, whatever DNA is in this universe, and things like that, it makes sense

#

Identity isn't just an ego, it's all the things that silently rule your being

#

If you are a Daedra, you are born from the waters of oblivion

#

If you are an Argonian, your soul returns from the waters of the hist

sand flume
#

so if not every soul goes to the dreamsleeve for reincarnation (cause some end up in afterlives), doesnt that mean theres less souls that can be reincarnated? so population of nirn decreasing? or is dreamsleeve a source of souls as well as recycling old ones

hardy quarry
#

And if you are a mortal, you are born from the waters of your mother

#

You are seeded with the spark and AE of your father

#

Mixing with the soul and life force of your mother and her AE

#

Both waters mix to create you. Water is the carrier of what you are.

#

And when you die it becomes the memory of what you were. Make sense?

sand flume
uncut hatch
#

eso's lore is weird

coral mantle
#

just please, don't take anything Dremora says as fact ._ . the blasted fetcher is likely manipulating you

frigid willow
#

Demons lie. color me shocked

proper ice
#

Mfw the God of lying lies

uncut hatch
#

shes a part of mundus now though

coral mantle
#

phew, for a moment it seemed like people accept that water stuff

uncut hatch
#

the memory thing is real kinda though. the Nereid still was taking memories from people to make a water stone (yes i looked it up now eheh)

frigid willow
#

So I was reading up on beast people and I noticed that there are a ton of them reportedly in akavir.
Are we meant to take away that Akavir may be the original home of all beast people or am I overthinking ?

proper ice
#

Yeah it’s true, although tbh, I’m not a fan od that

#

Overthinking

#

Khajiit are (maybe) descended from a group of elves that Azura claimed and tied to the lunar lattice and made cat people

frigid willow
#

Honestly I thought the water thing was a metaphor for genetics.

uncut hatch
#

you could take it like that i guess?

sand flume
#

you dont quite get genetics working in the same was as IRL as in TES

uncut hatch
#

but the quest that started the whole water memory was about a Nereid taking memories to make a water stone to save her home from becoming a desert

sand flume
#

the race of the child is always the race of the mother for example, not a combination of the two parents

#

though traits can ofc come through from the fathers side

uncut hatch
frigid willow
#

Yeah.
like the grey Prince.

coral mantle
#

Magic has no limits in Mundus, so whatever that Nereid did could be soem fancy beastfolk water magic that needs studying

sand flume
#

grey prince is generally a really weird thing because iirc vampires having children isnt meant to work

#

hes a v special case

proper ice
#

It does have limits, but more on the mage then the actual magix

coral mantle
#

^yup

proper ice
#

Magic is totally op tho, take in mind Azra Nightwielder and Shadow magic

frigid willow
#

Yeah. There are no rules but if you die before you can generate the energy needed to do something it won't happen

uncut hatch
#

i want more shadow magic

frigid willow
hardy quarry
#

You don't need to rely on the words of a dremora.

#

And MK himself confirmed it out of character.

coral mantle
#

you can explain said evidence differently

hardy quarry
#

You're welcome to try.

coral mantle
#

huh? already did - it's fancy beastfolk magic

hardy quarry
#

But make sure to keep in mind that ectoplasm holds the essence of a ghost, and that even the magical spirits of ghosts need some sort of material component

frigid willow
#

I kinda just go with the flow when it comes to that kinda thing. no pun intended.

uncut hatch
hardy quarry
coral mantle
#

it's the first rule of TES lore really, nothing's set in stone (no pun intended). there are only opinions and agendas

hardy quarry
#

There are still consistencies which are more likely to be true due to being consistencies.

#

Not all understandings of TES lore can be inherently equal.

sand flume
split iris
#

Tbh, the whole Memory = Water lorebit was a thing before ESO. ZOS was just like "okay fine here you go" and just spat out the answer. But sure, even that can mayhaps be debated.

sand flume
#

you dont really see any imperial side of him

hardy quarry
#

Yeah the Grey Prince actually supports the idea of the mother donating the race 🤣

uncut hatch
#

or in a manual maybe

hardy quarry
frigid willow
split iris
#

Mnemoli and Sermons yep

coral mantle
#

both of which are a bit metaphorical

split iris
#

Sure, but the language of TES is metaphor which is the languge of myth.

hardy quarry
#

Mnemoli isn't a metaphor 😅

coral mantle
#

Sermons what, Almalexia throws VIvecs' egg into water?

hardy quarry
#

The gimmick of the Sermons is that it lies to tell the truth

#

It encodes the language of what it is trying to express like an alchemical text

split iris
#

Good ol esoterica

hardy quarry
#

It also is steeped heavily in real life alchemical metaphor

#

So this is a very very very intended design in the Sermons

#

For example, the Philosopher's Stone literally exists in the Sermons. It just isn't called by that name

#

It's very foolish to read the Sermons literally in most cases

coral mantle
#

SErmons also borrow some from alistair crowley. Like, a lot

hardy quarry
#

Yeah there's a bit of that in there too

coral mantle
#

don't know if it's possible to read that literally x)

frigid willow
#

Which makes sense. You don't just pull stuff like this from out of nowhere.

hardy quarry
#

Oh there are people that do. A lore nerd I know and a UESP admin I know both think the Sermons are literally true in most cases

coral mantle
#

oooh, sermon 14! that's good to picture

hardy quarry
#

There was a popular theory back in the old forums from way back then that Vivec changed their own past with god-magic to make the Sermons literally true

#

And I think it really, really, really misses the point of the Sermons. You'll find its supporters and detractors often do this

coral mantle
#

now imagine what kinda discussions happen in non-english nerd communities, where all people have are poor translations <.< it's where i come from

#

oh, and no, ive read original

split iris
#

I dont see why it must be one or the other. Having something both a metaphor and both literal very...well, TES, very Vivec. Manifest metaphors and what not. One should read the Sermons as Esotrica yes. But it is also fun to think that, with the Red Moment's Break, all of it also happened. But also not.

hardy quarry
#

Because I don't give Vivec that much credit Doc, if I can be real

frigid willow
hardy quarry
#

Not enough that he could control that much of reality. I tend to be a skeptic of MK's leaning towards belief and the projection of that belief being all that matters.

#

I think it's more Borgesian than TES actually is. I tend to think it's what MK wants it to be.

#

And I think because he wants it, his devotees want it.

coral mantle
frigid willow
coral mantle
#

hard enough to digest, and it didn't make it easier

hardy quarry
#

Ahhhh the Russian Morrowind translation. A lot of my Russian friends have explained it to me lmao

coral mantle
#

hue hue

hardy quarry
#

I don't think Vivec had sex with Molag Bal tbh, or I at least think it's very likely that he didn't

#

MUATRA is an anagram for TRAUMA, and Vivec was a prostitute

#

Although.....the Barons of Move-Like-This turned out to be actually real

#

So that might be a case where both is true.

coral mantle
#

ah, true

hardy quarry
#

I just don't believe that Vivec was actually an egg in a simulacrum of a Netchiman's wife

coral mantle
#

and he also BSed a bit about early Resdayn history. Also i shouldn't probably say this, i can't remember what exactly is wrong with that

hardy quarry
#

Well he made Nerevar just some random caravan dude who wasn't very smart and had to be told what to do all the time

#

Who then willingly gave himself to be sacrificed, allegedly. And this is before ALMSIVI forms a megazord and fights Numidium, killing the Dwemer

#

You could definitely say that a few....liberties were taken

#

Vivec basically constantly pulls the Obi-Wan bs: "What I told you was true, from a certain point of view"

coral mantle
#

nice guy, he was

hardy quarry
#

So you're lying Obi, got it

modest helm
#

This looks really cool! Will join asap.

coral mantle
#

speaking of, have anybody read Bruce Nesmith's .. what was the title... Liar-something? i saw an advert a while back

#

https://www.amazon.com/Mischief-Maker-Norse-Mythology-Reimagined-ebook/dp/B092CJPX2Q/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1621708259&refinements=p_27%3ABruce+Nesmith&s=books&sr=1-1

Amazon.com: Mischief Maker: Norse Mythology Reimagined eBook: Nesmi...

Mischief Maker: Norse Mythology Reimagined - Kindle edition by Nesmith, Bruce. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading Mischief Maker: Norse Mythology Reimagined.

#

not sure what channel would suit the question better

hardy quarry
#

No I wasn't aware of this

coral mantle
#

i feel like i ought to read it, to like familiarize with his craft, buuuuut.. doesn't description match American Gods in a few places? O_o

hardy quarry
#

I'm not the biggest fan of Nesmith's work in TES but I'd be interested to hear how the book is I guess

uncut hatch
#

Is there a legitimate reason the levitation was passed? Like what are the reasons of such an act?

sand flume
#

main reason is it makes game design extremely tricky, lore reason is its a way that criminals can escape or something

uncut hatch
#

I knew the out of game reason but never knew the lore reason. Guess that makes sense. But then spells like invisibility is legal.

coral mantle
#

NPCs never used levitation in Daggerfall-Morrowind (umm, i think?). Tricky to apply, yeah.. So BGS cut it and explained lore-wise. Players learn about it from NPCs random conversations:
*"He's getting older, but he can still teach a bit about Alteration. He's been teaching it since before the Levitation Act of 421."
"He still teaches, though he lost his passion for it after the Levitation Act was passed. Can't say I blame him."

hardy quarry
#

You are now discovering why TES4 era lore nerds were kinda pissed about the Levitation Act

uncut hatch
#

I mean i both don't mind but also dislike levitation not being allowed. I was mainly just curious what the rulings were.

hardy quarry
coral mantle
#

was there any actual explanation though? can't find any other reference than those two lines about Alteration

hardy quarry
#

That's why people hated it.

uncut hatch
#

Ehh. It's understandable from a game design view. Though maybe bethesda could have just not included the spell. But i give props for trying to make a lore reason for things.

hardy quarry
#

It was a huge force that could affect the world in-universe since levitation was an incredibly useful and world-changing ability. So the devs ultimately didn't want to deal with it when it wasn't working well in their new game.

#

So the Empire declared outlawed it and suddenly everyone just stopped I guess

#

"Aw shucks. Well the Empire said it so we have to do it."

uncut hatch
#

Well not morrowind/vvardenfell. Since you could still learn it. The act was passed in the year morrowind takes place. But due to them having autonomy they didn't fully abide every law passed.

coral mantle
#

Can always explain it ourselves, of course. See, there may have or may have not been the reporst of irreversible harming effects of levitation usage \o/ Yes, brain damage, impossible to treat

uncut hatch
#

Also since the act, the only places we've explored are places either

A) owned by the empire (cyrodiil, skyrim)
B) doesn't trust magic (skyrim)

coral mantle
#

also, what ancient history books mention Levitation? Can't remember any. What if Mages discovered this magic only recently, like in 3rd era. And had to drop it because it was too dangerous for them

hardy quarry
modest helm
#

Technically nothing says the Levitation Act bans levitation. Could just regulate its teaching (which would still explain why Dovyn Aren, the Alteration teacher, is upset by it). Either way it's more of an Easter egg than anything, since the novels outright have levitating armies

hardy quarry
#

I think it was meant to be an easter egg

#

But in the desire for continuity the fan says "NO"

humble pulsar
old lantern
#

Wait so I heard there's a time dilation effect with east and west and some sort of time freeze when you go north

#

Any explanation/elaboration on this?

split iris
#

It is a common misconception. It is more to be read metaphorically, where Yokuda represents the Dream of the Past, Akavir, of the Future. Atmora, a land of Space with No Time, frozen within, with Aldmeris, a land of Time with No Space, melted in memory.
But when one travels, no timey whimey really occurs

Though it was an old mused idea when it was first being planned up. Things, say, north of Tamriel take longer to do than south. Why the Aldmer were much more advanced so quickly than the Nords. Baking breads would take like 30 minutes in Summerset and 2 hours in Skyrim or what have you. An interesting concept indeed, but alas, not really applied in the base lore, from what we see.

old lantern
quartz crane
#

Or there's an entirely different explanation that the West = past, East = future is simply an explanation of time zones, but that isn't hugely popular because it's relatively dull. Although I think that it's the inverse to the normal time, with the sun rising in the East and setting in the West.

hardy quarry
quartz crane
#

That said, how or why the sun moves at all in TES doesn't make a whole heap of sense

modest helm
#

If I recall, Arena's sun rises in the west and sets in the east

quartz crane
#

Oooh, interesting to know

coral mantle
#

remember the orrery in Oblivion dlc? dwemer orrery in the most respected university, it's gotta be somewhat objective and true. anyways, nirn rotates clockwise there, not the other way

#

shoot a hole in the 'skybox' and that's sun

#

hm. Or not

dusky scaffold
#

You don't know whether the orrery has nirn's north or south up

#

But speaking of the orrery: secunda always stays at the same east-west position relative to nirn, it only shifts in north-south direction

sterile sapphire
#

Hey is there any source on what soul gems are, or rather, where do they come from? There is the geode in Blackreach where you can harvest some, but it's doubtful that it's the origin of most gems that are traded in Tamriel. Still, are we to assume they are harvested like other gemstones would be, albeit much rarer ?

split iris
#

They appear to basically be the TES Quartz. In theory, one can soul trap souls into anything, the gems just so happen to be the most stable. With the creation of the Black Soul Gems, it is more of a cultural differentiation that metaphysical.

#

Even Dreekius talks about how, before the popularity of the gems via Empire/Mages Guild, Argonians trapped souls in unhatched eggs.

hardy quarry
#

Different mechanisms between those

sterile sapphire
#

I see, so the trapping potential is technically there in other objects, the soul gems simply being the objects whose inner structure makes this trapping probably easier

split iris
#

Precisely

#

My favourite aspect of soul gem lore is the historical inconsistency on who invented the Black Soul Gems. Shalidor? Sotha Sil? Mannimarco? Vanus Galerion? Rather entertaining to see who will take credit next lol

sterile sapphire
#

Great, thanks for the answer and for leading me towards Dreekius, I should probably read more about Redguard

split iris
#

It's a good read, Redguard, a lot of talk on soul metaphysics, from soul trapping to Yoku deathrites to Sload necromancy, etc

hardy quarry
#

Well it definitely wasn't invented by Vanus

#

The logic there is that he wrote on a piece of paper that everyone now had to follow the classification system for soul gems, and all of a sudden everyone in the world forgot their spells that soul trapped for regular soul gems and they stopped being used

outer sorrel
#

The Nu-Cyrods on Secunda actually trade souls and soul gems en masse

hardy quarry
#

That's all made up by modders

coral mantle
#

the who, now?

outer sorrel
#

Nu-Cyrods are people who live on the old Remanite moon colonies

split iris
outer sorrel
#

Mostly Khajiit and Imperials

hardy quarry
#

The Secunda soul trade was invented by modders

quartz shuttle
coral mantle
#

not like any in-game source could prove these colonies exist

outer sorrel
#

Mh, shrug

#

PGE1 and PGE3

coral mantle
#

wait, it's not even MK's stuff? oh well

outer sorrel
#

Which came with redguard and oblivion respectively

hardy quarry
#

And also I was one of the modders that helped created the Secunda soul trade

coral mantle
#

Oblivion's PGE only barely mentions travels in Remans time, nothing about the colonies

outer sorrel
#

The moon colonies exist, Sjest, theyre canon

coral mantle
#

gimme source then

hardy quarry
#

Well the moon colonies aren't canon but they're in the literature

quartz shuttle
#

I mean, you go to the moons in ESO...

hardy quarry
#

Secunda soul trade? Not so much

coral mantle
#

in ESO there's some 'demi-plane' of can't remember which moon, and also some monastery of Lorkhan, which isn't an imperial colony

hardy quarry
#

Well, I do buy into the concept of Reman moon colonies

quartz shuttle
#

Jode

hardy quarry
#

Which should make sense because I worked on Tatterdemalion. The soul trade on Secunda was something we inferred as something that needed to happen on the moons, because it was lunar currency

#

There would be merchants there in the mod that didn't even accept Septims, just souls. Especially sload

#

I'm completely down with the idea of a Secunda soul trade, but it does need to be pointed out that it isn't really in the literature

coral mantle
#

kill me \o/ this isn't the grounded, down on earth TES i play

outer sorrel
#

The "grounded" stuff is boring LOTR fare

hardy quarry
coral mantle
#

true, all true

hardy quarry
outer sorrel
#

Subjective opinion

hardy quarry
#

So is yours so what is the point of saying that? 🤣

outer sorrel
#

Im saying it's a subjective opinion, from me included

#

I find hard fantasy incredibly boring, gotta shake things up

hardy quarry
#

Well you know what isn't subjective? The fact that down to earth TES being LOTR-style content is wrong

outer sorrel
#

Dude have you played oblivion

hardy quarry
#

That's a deliberate distortion of the actual design given

coral mantle
#

personal conflicts in a fantasy world, neat stuff

hardy quarry
#

I have, but Oblivion is one TES game.

outer sorrel
#

It turned Cyrodiil into Gondor

hardy quarry
#

Yes.

coral mantle
#

which game wasn't Gondor? Morrowind alone

hardy quarry
outer sorrel
#

And tes5 lore isnt exactly interesting. Court intrigue and politics are cool, standard fantasy fare isnt

outer sorrel
hardy quarry
#

Which part of Skyrim was standard fantasy besides fighting dragons?

#

It sort of sounds like you don't actually like the TES games.

outer sorrel
#

It's pretty generic landscapes, pretty generic vikings

hardy quarry
#

The landscapes are beautiful though

coral mantle
#

i'm talking about world, not deep lore now

outer sorrel
#

Sure theyre well made and pretty, I just dont find deciduous forest interesting as a biome

hardy quarry
#

It's well known that Skyrim is one of the most picturesque games, especially when you enhance the textures of what's already there.

outer sorrel
#

The reach was... Fine, dwemer aside

coral mantle
#

forest <3 when i'm down on mood, i take a walk in the imperial preserve in colovia

hardy quarry
#

I would rather have a beautiful landscape than something conceptually interesting but unappealing to look at

outer sorrel
#

It should arguably have Direnni ruins, though I dont trust the devs to not make Direnni Ayleids

hardy quarry
#

Either way, it isn't Lord of the Rings

outer sorrel
#

Cough ESO cough

hardy quarry
#

Skyrim is definitely not that. That's just unfair to say. And you can't point at TES4 to suggest that's all the series is

#

TES5 was clearly them walking back from the TES4 design

coral mantle
#

TES2 and Arena, nothing too fancy

hardy quarry
#

TES1 and 2 are just Ultima rips 🤣

outer sorrel
#

Skyrim is very standard viking fantasy and has a lot of lore issues, Arena barely counts cause the lore was half cooked

split iris
dusky scaffold
#

let's just summarize TES sucks /s

outer sorrel
#

Tes2 had really fantastic lore and court intrigue with the Numidium, the underking, mannimarco

hardy quarry
outer sorrel
#

Personally I prefer the more kinda byzantine and or medieval weirdness angles for Highrock, but the devs hate highrock so

split iris
#

If you arent hating on TES, are you being a good TES fan? nerevar

outer sorrel
dusky scaffold
#

ZOS seems to be hating the bretons, we don't know wether BGS hates the bretons (yet)

hardy quarry
#

It's fine to criticize but this is the usual MKult diatribe I see tbh

#

And they'll all buy and play the next one only to do the same thing once the hype wears off

#

And so we go round and round

#

TES4 I kind of get the angst for though

#

Having been part of that era myself

outer sorrel
#

Dismissing all of Kirkbride's lore isn't exactly any less egregious than dumping on Emil

#

Just cause MK wrote it doesnt make it bad

dusky scaffold
#

tbh, I've enjoyed all TESs since 3

hardy quarry
dusky scaffold
#

(and at least one prior)

hardy quarry
#

Dude I was writing a GAME with a team that worked with him

outer sorrel
#

Most people who use the "MKult" insult consider everything before 4 noncanon

#

Which devolves tes into a boring 5e campaigm

hardy quarry
#

I'm dismissing my own lore hahahaha.

Nah I bring up the MKult because it's a real type of people

outer sorrel
#

Instead of a weird AD&D campaign

hardy quarry
#

And also, I was MKult

coral mantle
#

was? how did you recover?

split iris
hardy quarry
outer sorrel
#

And no I dont wholesale like MK lore, I dont get his distaste for mithril

#

Or Altmer

hardy quarry
#

I do. Mithril is out of place in TES

outer sorrel
#

It's just a metal

hardy quarry
#

That's out of place LOTR right there

#

He also hates orcs for the same reason but I don't really see the problem with orky boys. They're not just LOTR fantasy at this point

outer sorrel
#

This company makes M rated games why is "feces but a cuss word" banned

hardy quarry
#

Well the forums have been that way since the 2000s even

#

Maybe even before that.

#

I think it's just a propriety thing. Gets me all the time since I have the mouth of a sailor.

outer sorrel
#

Anyway, mithril is just a metal. It wasnt copy paste tolkein till oblivion, but everything in oblivion looks bad

hardy quarry
#

Oblivion has cozy cities and....that's about it

outer sorrel
#

Except madness armor, ill give them that

#

Oblivion has breton cities but boring

hardy quarry
#

Nah man, Skingrad for example is beautiful. I'd love to live there.

outer sorrel
#

It isnt Colovian

hardy quarry
#

Sure but it does look good.

outer sorrel
#

It's like, Bayard

dusky scaffold
#

Oblivion has Dark Brotherhood and Shivering Isles

split iris
#

A good cure to Mithril is LadyN's take on it, etymologically taken from proto-Niben word for moth and myth with Elven suffix

dusky scaffold
#

one of the best content there is

hardy quarry
#

Honestly the biggest crime of TES4 isn't even the jungle. It's removing Sutch

outer sorrel
#

Colovian should be rome meets med-slav

#

Nibenay should be rome but weeaboos

dusky scaffold
hardy quarry
coral mantle
#

isn't Blackwood jungle?

hardy quarry
outer sorrel
#

Ill concede it's one of the better cities

split iris
coral mantle
outer sorrel
# coral mantle isn't Blackwood jungle?

Pretty much all the Nibenese territory barring the Jerrals was supposed to be, heck PGE3 even includes mentiom of the heartlands rice fields iirc. All absent in tes4

#

Colovia more Mediterranean climate. Greco-Baltic

coral mantle
#

^well yeah, but it also say about dragons washing their wings in the cannals of Imperial City

split iris
outer sorrel
#

Youre trying to say dragons roosting in the imperial city wouldnt be dope?

#

Cause Tiber literally had a dragon, Naarfililargus is canon still

coral mantle
#

also, ESO made Gold Coast pretty tropical, even if looks exactly like Oblivion's. Tropical Cyrodiil, right there

outer sorrel
#

ESO gets very very few things right, their gold coast isnt bad

modest helm
hardy quarry
#

I assume that the Niben probably was a temperate style jungle which looks a bit different than a tropical one, and has experienced deforestation

#

And of course there's also the thing with Talos

outer sorrel
#

The talos thing was an attempted justification to make tes4 gondor

hardy quarry
#

It was, but it's also what we got

#

The continuity must continue

outer sorrel
#

Also I'm pretty sure an old lore compliant Cyrodiil would cause Gamebryo to combust

outer sorrel
#

The dwemer being elves was a retcon

dusky scaffold
#

how does talos make condor?

hardy quarry
#

It does but not as badly as you might think. I think TES4 was probably the worst case imaginable

dusky scaffold
#

*gondor

split iris
#

Cyrondor

outer sorrel
#

The gutting and rewriting of all dragon and dragonborn lore was pretty bad

outer sorrel
coral mantle
hardy quarry
outer sorrel
#

Miraak for one, making it give you mastery of the voice for some reason

dusky scaffold
#

ah, that's what you mean
I thought gondor had a figure that was similar to talos

outer sorrel
#

Which was a gift from kyne and has nothing to do with dragons

hardy quarry
outer sorrel
#

It was a nord thing, tonal magic bestowed to the nords by kyne

#

Now it's a dragon thing for... Some reason

proper ice
#

Thu’um has nothing to do with dragons?

#

Since when

hardy quarry
split iris
#

I dont see the need to treat all contradictory source as a retcon. The Nords could have believed in the Daughters of Kyne gave them the Voice. Or it was Paarthunax. Maybe both.

outer sorrel
#

I assume because "the last tongue" doesn't sound as cool as "the last dragonborn"

hardy quarry
#

It didn't remove the old lore, it expanded it

#

Also what Doc said

dusky scaffold
proper ice
#

I know they shout it, I was saying since when did the thu’um have nothing to do with dragons

outer sorrel
#

Them making dragons weird pseudo e'deta was purely so they could make a game where you fight dragons, and they didnt think the last tongue sounded cool enough so they shoved dragonborn into it

#

Considering it has nothing to do with dragons

proper ice
#

Pseudo Et’Ada? They’re just Ada

#

Et’Ada are the gods

outer sorrel
#

And was just divine right to rule given by Akatosh/Alduin/Auri-el/so on so forth

split iris
#

Tbf, Dragons have had a divine connection since Akatosh's depictions in Morrowind

outer sorrel
#

Akatosh looks like a dragon because he thinks it looks cool

#

Peryite looks like a dragon because he's trolling Akatosh

split iris
#

I think the latter is more likely than the former

hardy quarry
#

So the et'ada thing was there for awhile

split iris
#

Right, I said Morrowind because I think it is the oldest source on that(?)

I dont think Varieties of Faith was a book in Daggerfall

hardy quarry
#

I see a solid continuity here myself. Not saying I wouldn't have done some things differently with TES5, because I would have. But it's fairly faithful to the source material all things considered

#

The biggest mistake in TES5 was religion

outer sorrel
#

The ending of tes4 is just the avatar state

hardy quarry
#

Nothing wrong from the concept of imperialization of religion, it logically holds up fine. It's just that it was not as good as what we could have had.

hardy quarry
outer sorrel
#

Kyne is said like omce in 5

split iris
#

Stormcloak Totem vs Imperial Pantheon would have been quite fantastic

outer sorrel
#

You know, the nords' chief deity

proper ice
#

Was she the chief deity?

split iris
#

She is treated as such commonly

outer sorrel
#

The stormcloaks are led by a Thalmor plsnt so eh

hardy quarry
#

She is. Kyne gets brought up by old traditionalists in a few places, and even random Nords swear by her in combat

#

Kyne isn't quite gone

split iris
outer sorrel
hardy quarry
#

Stormcloaks aren't led by Thalmor good lord 🤣

Ulfric is an asset because he's doing what the Thalmor want, but he doesn't work for them and quite despises them

outer sorrel
#

Alduin is the Nordic aspect of Akatosh

#

Nah man Ulfric was making sweet sweet love to Elenwyn

modest helm
#

Varieties says the Nords have no chief deity after Shor's death, TES5 says Kyne is the chief deity and took the mantle after her husband Shor's death. Technically a retcon but very minor since Kyne was already super associated with the Nords in PGE1/TES3

outer sorrel
#

Allinall: second coming of MK

split iris
hardy quarry
#

Well, Doc has this in hand, I need to get away from the pessimism for a bit

outer sorrel
#

PGE1 was before tes3

hardy quarry
#

I salute you sir Doktor o7

split iris
#

Fair day, Syfri lol thank ye

modest helm
outer sorrel
#

"Chief deity" is tricky, a lot of people probably feared Alduin more than they loved Kyne

#

Shor's dead

split iris
#

I still do not see what fear has to do with this?

outer sorrel
#

It's weird and vague

#

If you do more stuff to appease Alduin more than to worship Kyne, Alduin becomes the head of the totem pole

#

I do wonder if theyll gut the redguard pantheon in 6, kinda expecting it

proper ice
#

I’m expecting good outta redguards if they’re the focus

#

I don’t see why they wouldn’t learn from whatever mistakes were made

outer sorrel
#

Im working on the assumption 6 is hammerfell

#

And it's way too easy to just do skyrim again

split iris
#

Ah I see what you mean, but alas Alduin wasnt treated as such. There are Worship Deities and Propitiate Deities and Alduin was neither. Propitiate Deities are say Testing Deities like Malak and Molag for the Dunmer or Mora and Orkey for the Nords. But Alduin was different. Alduin was more like the name of the Bear you dont say out loud lest you summon him. Hell, not even the word dragon was allowed to be uttered by the Nords. Alduin was a deity, but not one of worship nor propitiation (outside of the Dragon Cult ofc)

sterile sapphire
#

Most feared does not have to imply that. From what I remember Alduin was seen more as an inevitability, and is name to be uttered as less as possible as to not invite him to early

dusky scaffold
#

don't wake sleeping dragons

outer sorrel
#

Crowns (blue) vs Forebares (red) civil war. Player is the HoonDing, the last sword singer. Thalmor try to mess with the towers, the dragons are back (or left hand elves, or sload)

split iris
sterile sapphire
#

Well, what Doc said in more elaborate words 😆

dusky scaffold
#

hush 🤫

dusky scaffold
outer sorrel
#

DLC2 you go to Yokuda to fight the "first HoonDing"

#

Whom I refer to as Marik

#

DLC1 will prob be orsinium and have Malacath shenans

split iris
#

"...in their tongue...he is HoonDing...MAKE WAY GOD! (Shehai Shen!)"

outer sorrel
#

Dragonstar still isnt present

#

Sword Singer Born? Or Hunding Born?

split iris
#

HoonDinger

outer sorrel
#

Tbh they might just say HoonDing is the Yoku word for Dragonborn.

#

"Cuz Cyrus keeld a dra gunn"

dusky scaffold
#

Chicken Thing

outer sorrel
#

Alternatively Naarfililargus will be Partysnax but red

proper ice
#

Bruh

dusky scaffold
#

Naffi is dead

outer sorrel
#

You assume they wouldnt bring him back

#

Bold of you

sand flume
#

Probably our biggest difference relates to the head of the pantheon. We Nords consider Kyne as the leader of the gods and find the Imperial fascination with Alduin (who they call Akatosh) to be both perplexing and mildly disturbing. We work diligently to keep Alduin asleep, while our southern neighbors try time and time again to get his attention! Which is why I begin every service in the temple with a prayer to praise Alduin (oh great god of time!), followed by a prayer to keep him at bay (may your slumber stretch on for a thousand generations!).
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Divines_and_the_Nords

Online:Divines and the Nords
#

its true that they worked to not wake up, but they still worshipped him

split iris
#

Ehh with the way he speaks about Alduin and in the time frame of ESO, sure the names were there like Kyne and Stuhn, but the working of Imperialization had already begun

sand flume
#

hmm fair ig but still goes to show that he was worshipped, and i doubt the worship only started after imperialization begun

dusky scaffold
#

I do not

split iris
#

Of true totemic religion, only the Hearth Goddess had temples and were worshiped in the sense of the word we understand. Dead Gods needed no temples. Testing Gods has the battlefield. As for the Twilights, again, are not venerated. Once they show up, it is the end, one way or another. Getting ready for the Last War is your worship. Outside of the Dragon Cult, there are no temples and sermons to Alduin.

coral mantle
#

so we called Oblivion LOTR today, grounded like, and mundane. Despite that it has Mysterium Xarxes, TAMRIEL AE AEDROTH crap, daedra god in the flesh stomping imperial grounds, man becoming avatar of god thing. Sooo.. why's that, any ideas? why people remember the game as 'unimaginative'?

dusky scaffold
#

Which, of you think about it, still holds true for skyrim
The only temples found, apart from two talos ones and the imperial temple of the divines, are to kynareth, mara, and dibella

split iris
uncut hatch
split iris
#

There's also the deathhalls with Arkay but again, Imperialisms. I dislike it very much how ESO has been going too deep with the "Alduin = Akatosh thus acts the same", removing all cultural variations, and thus have been saying that "Orkey Priests do funeral rites"

quartz crane
#

That feels... wrong

#

I wouldn't expect Orkey to even have priests in the Nord pantheon. That's like Christianity having priests to Belzebub

split iris
#

Exactly. The Kyne Priesthood would be in charge of preping for funerals clearly

quartz crane
#

Or priests of Shor, as he's in the underworld and all

split iris
#

Well Nords didn't have priests nor temples to Shor either, just the Hearths. And of them, Kyne is usually the psychopomp as kiss at the end

outer sorrel
#

It's kinda his whole thing, the "missing god" and all that

split iris
#

I mean you can always have cults and covens, but not really the case for the common Nordic Totem worship, yea. There was that one Lorkhan witch who ruled Whiterun for some time.

modest helm
#

Still not sure what's up with that. Surely a Nord venerating the Missing would call herself a priestess of Shor, no? The name Lorkhan is inherently elven

split iris
#

Makes you think

#

We still are unsure of Jsashe's culture nor race. And, well, being a self-proclaimed Lorkhan worshipper, we know at least that her culture wasn't Nordic.

modest helm
#

Exactly. I am inclined to think Dunmer myself. Or an exiled Altmer of one of Summerset's "Lorkhan cults" mentioned by YR.

stark socket
#

Btw, from Re-Examined: " The "mystery" of the millennial-plus rule of the Alessians was accepted but unexplained **until the spread of the Lorkhan cults in the late 3rd era **"

#

This was one of them.

#

And Nu-Mantia: "Not since the Selective have we seen so much dangerous interest in the shezzarite power-symbols."

#

"remarkable religious ferment and creativity" indeed.

split iris
#

Yea I did see some form of Imperial interplay there, though Dunmer or Altmer Lorkhan Cultist also sounds interesting

modest helm
#

An Imperial Lorkhan cult? A rejection of the traditional song of Shezarr in favor of a more pessimistic meric view of the world?

stark socket
#

Still, I think "Lorkhan" is a bit strange in Whiterun, Edoras or not. I mean, how would that look like? Altmeri Doom Drum Satan? Dunmeri Scarab Worship? Not with my Nords!

split iris
#

Well Firsthold had a Dunmer ruler so anything is possible in this world nerevar

modest helm
#

The cults mentioned in Re-Examined were, from my reading, a result of the Numidium's usage in the Warp in the West confirming all the most fringe conspiracy theories. Yet I wonder how that ties into the non-Arcturian, non-Numidiumist heresies. How does it get linked to Lorkhan cults in Cyrodiil and Whiterun?

stark socket
#

Maybe Jsashe's rule was just your ordinary brutal tyranny, with a mystery cult for the inner circle.

split iris
left current
#

I kind of saw it similar to the Jaegerists from AOT. Like if the outside world is so convinced these island devils will be the end of them then so be it

stark socket
#

I just searched for "frye hags" and ended up with "free hugs" ... 🥶

split iris
#

The hugs of the frye hags are free, but only once

white garden
#

that's pretty quirky

pastel sorrel
# coral mantle so we called Oblivion LOTR today, grounded like, and mundane. Despite that it ha...

Those are very specific and isolated instances, most notably being the bits written by MK. They make up less than a percentage of the base game as a whole which consists of Generic Fantasy Land™️ and little in the way of cultural lore additions or depictions. It's not like TES3 where you had a relative deep dive into the cultures of the local Dunmer and their various facets, and it's not like it went anywhere interesting with what we did get. The most we got is Alessian Rebellion stuff and other historical shenanigans, which happened millennia prior and have little bearing on the present day.

#

I still played the hell out of TES4, but from a purely lorespace perspective, while it didn't do anything actually egregiously bad per se (other than the lack of a proper Colovia/Nibenay split for instance), we didn't get enough of a look at Imperial cultures like we did with the Dunmer cultures.

#

There's also the forest thing which took until ESO to properly put away, but i don't really consider that as much of an issue as the lack of cultural depiction. The Imperials and whatnot are kinda just there in TES4.

#

And what was there wasn't really the flavour we had in TES3 or 5 onwards, nor much of anything like how they were depicted beforehand

#

We didn't have the city of a thousand cults, we didn't have the Nibenay/Colovia cultural splits

#

and some of it can be chalked up to conservation of detail for any number of reasons, but it's still a general criticism of things i would've like to see more of.

coral mantle
#

ESO had the chance, several by now, to actually do that Colovia-Nibenay split, but they didn't. I guess there's just too little difference to make them different cultures then, it's a someone's decision, it's 'canon'

pastel sorrel
#

ESO's kinda stuck sticking to the depictions of the prior games, though it does at least pay more lip service to the split

#

and that's at least a first step

#

there's the notion that new players will be confused if stuff's too different, but it's like, it's the better part of a millennium before the mainline series, nostalgia isn't necessarily that useful

#

but that's me. Also i gotta go to work hnnnnnng

split iris
#

I must agree. It gets really tiresome when they keep coining the excuse "we dont want to make things confusing for new players."

coral mantle
#

also, MK only wrote COmemntaries, no? the story and Mankar's wild idea were BGS's. Commentaries don't go into Tamriel ae daedroth stuff. And what's this about forest? O__ o It's impressive in Oblivion. I'm still waiting for some other game that would do forest so good

dusky scaffold
#

MK literally wrote mankar's whole speech

coral mantle
#

can i ask for proof for that? really, because ive seen people assume MK wrote stuff he didn't

dusky scaffold
#

(and nobody proofread that, they just stuck his rough first draft into the game, that's why mankar gets his realms all wrong)

coral mantle
#

ah, like, Viviec's dialogue? was that MK's? Ken Rolston wrote the main story (er, for Morrowind)

dusky scaffold
#

there's no vivec in Oblivion...

coral mantle
#

yeah, i redacted that

#

did he write Vivec's dialogue in tes3?

dusky scaffold
#

I do not know
I didn't really care about vivec's dialogue, as there was nothign wrong with it

coral mantle
#

oh well, i mean, i've seen peopel claiming MK did that, based simply on the sermons. And i'm guessing the same here, Mankar's dialogue. MK wasn't even an employee

dusky scaffold
#

I don'T have any source at hand ATM

#

he still did contract work after his employment ended
he also did the KotN main quest and a lot of skyrim pre-production

coral mantle
#

sides, there's thise this video, from game informer Skyrim cover story (Lachdonin gave me the hint), where Kurt Kuhlmann talks a bit about lore so far in the series. he talks Battlespire, like that story gave Lord Dagon the reason, or one of the reasons to take revenge

#

Kurt is the man! the usnung hero of TES! these are MKs words, btw

quartz crane
hardy quarry
#

It was either Ken or Doug

stark socket
#

Ken Rolston I believe

#

MK somewhere said that Vivec had four writers & lecturers - I seem to recall that Rolston did the dialogue.

#

paw-prints-in-the-mud: "I still don't know why Ken Rolsten wrote Vivec's quest dialogue."
MK: "Ken was responsible for the MQ in MW, so that's part of it. The larger part is that Vivec's voice is Legion, and it was only fitting that he had more than one author."
paw-prints-in-the-mud: "Then Kurt should have written it. Duality and all."
MK: "Kurt edited the Sermons extensively, as did Douglas Goodall. Quadratic."

modest helm
#

Beat me to it 😄

quartz shuttle
#

Ken and Kurt have had just as much to do with TES's deeper concepts as Kirkbride

#

The only reason we keep getting lame generic stuff is Howard

#

I mean, he couldn't even do the Deadlands well, and wanted a generic Hell environment

modest helm
#

yeah, Ken wrote for all his fellow devs' characters as part of the main quest, including Vivec (MK), Hasphat Antabolis (Kurt), Divayth Fyr (GT Noonan). He didn't do a bad job

stark socket
#

His dialogues are poetry compared to ... other places of TES.

quartz shuttle
#

I should preface my criticisms with... I hate Oblivion. It is a festering cancer in the franchise and needs to die in a shallow grave

#

The utter lack of creativity and worldbuilding present in Oblivion was outright depressing, and everyone responsible for it should be ashamed.

hardy quarry
#

He just wants to be Conan irl

quartz shuttle
#

He also has a tendency to be distracted by whatever he likes at the time

hardy quarry
#

Todd wants big stick. Todd wants meat. Todd is happy

quartz shuttle
#

Like, they literally sold some of the Morrowind Designs by using Star Wars. And Todd was all for Lord of the Rings during Oblivion's development, and that's the direction they took it

hardy quarry
#

I genuinely don't think TES would be very good without him though

quartz shuttle
#

Thats... not a good way to direct worldbuilding

hardy quarry
#

Just how it is sometimes

quartz shuttle
#

Todd Howard is a weird bird. I think he is botht eh best and worst part of Bethesda's games.

#

Like, it's very clear that he's fantastic at coming up with concepts that can fundimentally change the RPG genre. But at the same time, he seems incapable of organizing well enough to refine those ideas and concepts into something good

stark socket
quartz shuttle
#

I just think, in general, Todd needs 2 other people to balance him out. He needs someone very good at the technical side of things, to take those ideas and make them work.

#

And he needs someone good with the creative and worldbuilding side of things, to help work ideas cohesively into a single world. Instead of making every game feel like a stand alone setting.

hardy quarry
#

One thing that doesn't get brought up enough is how good of a leader he is. You can have all the good ideas in the world and even great talent, and still fail to get a game to launch

#

And with TES games there's a lot more things that can go wrong than with most other games

quartz shuttle
#

Oh yeah, absolutely

#

And at the end of the day, i have enjoyed all but one of the games he's been responsible for

#

Technically 2, since i never actually played Blades...

#

But it's incredibly frustrating when so many of the games come so close to outright brilliance

coral mantle
pastel sorrel
#

MK's got a certain special pedestal for a good reason, but it does tend to overshadow that there was a lot of group effort going on too

#

Like, he himself will talk about Kurt Kuhlmann up and down the aisle, for instance. Some of the best work came from the two of them working together on stuff

quartz shuttle
#

Yeah

#

I've never heard anyhting but praise for Kurt from anyone related to the projects

uncut hatch
quartz shuttle
#

And somehow ended better

hardy quarry
modest helm
#

He has more substantial credits on Redguard, I think

hardy quarry
#

He vastly contributed to Redguard and Morrowind and is worthy of respect for a lot of the work he's done. He just shouldn't get a "pedestal"

coral mantle
#

He was doing textures for Redguard, no? plus comic book text

hardy quarry
#

He did a lot of the character writing, story, setting, comic book text, and art

dusky scaffold
#

he was doing lore for redguard

weak solstice
#

he started with texture work for Daggerfall

hardy quarry
#

Redguard had only three full time devs

coral mantle
#

go on, curious

hardy quarry
#

So he ended up doing a lot.

#

He also did a lot more for Morrowind to my knowledge than just the art credit he got, but he had a divorce with the company and most of the devs

#

Yes

coral mantle
#

rather too often, yeah

hardy quarry
coral mantle
hardy quarry
#

I wish I could like him. He's done a lot of bad things. Time for me to move on though

stark socket
#

I try to read MK, this acronym, not so much as a person, but as a shorthand for his work. Which for me, in art and writing and vision, is the Heart of this whole Tamriel affair. Not to diminish the works of other devs who deserve credit, but it is MK's work that made me stay in these halls, that proved to be cool and memorable after all the fluff of fantasy video games had worn off.

hardy quarry
#

He also used his works to make petty attacks on people, including former developers, has done massive damage to the lore community for his ego, and has destroyed most personal relationships in the community that I know of.

stark socket
#

... but is that really what we're here for? [Edit: to clarify - not the personal relationships, but the personal drama).

hardy quarry
#

Some people are

#

He writes some good stuff

modest helm
hardy quarry
#

I can definitely say that Kirkbride has even influenced me in a lot of good ways

#

I think the proper response to Kirkbride though is to treat his work with a little scrutiny. Some of his stuff (like his Hist space lore for instance) was rejected by Todd way back in the 90s and he was just trying to backdoor them in and get people to believe they were true

#

And some of this stuff builds on the setting through the ideas he already put in the setting to begin with

hardy quarry
#

At least that's what he said on Memospore

coral mantle
#

thinks it's the right place to ask. Who in heavens wrote that Bosmer lady from the Mages Guild in Redguard? just can't stop giggling every time i read that "men mages cant accomplish much because their life is short. Unless they go the rotting way". Aww, rotting way! giggling again

hardy quarry
#

He's extremely talented. He can probably work on at least some portions of most of the roles that make up game design

#

Only thing that ever held him back was his personality

#

Not many people can come in with being a good writer and artist and also being good at some tech stuff

coral mantle
#

Laemon Tuttle is <3

modest helm
#

Answers some questions about the dialog system and journal

hardy quarry
#

I still love MK's old demand of "INFER"

#

INFER

coral mantle
#

what's that

hardy quarry
#

"deduce or conclude (information) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements."

#

He'd rarely tell you something straight. He'd tell you to use deduction instead

coral mantle
#

should make it a stick message on lore channels here and Fallout

modest helm
hardy quarry
#

That was just about the only team for Redguard. A couple of other people contributed but those three did most of the work

modest helm
#

I'd guess Kurt had a hand in Falicia's dialogue, since she discusses Clan Direnni at one point which is a topic covered by PGE1 High Rock (a section authored by Kuhlmann)

coral mantle
hardy quarry
#

Todd is actually a capable writer, he's a pretty smart guy

#

He'd just rather code and chase shinies

modest helm
#

Oh nice, we can post videos here. Anyway, I'd like to show everyone perhaps the most dreadful pronunciation of Direnni to make it into canon

stark socket
#

Dayriini?

hardy quarry
#

DUR-REENI

stark socket
#

hehe

stark socket
uncut hatch
#

Oh they added images into the channels!?

hardy quarry
#

Honestly I had completely forgotten he was in that until Sjes pointed it out

uncut hatch
#

Oh only on this channel so far though

modest helm
#

I think that was primarily Goodall (the Khajiit and Ra'athim lore are dead giveaways), but I wonder what Todd and Ken had to contribute

coral mantle
west palm
#

Re: Lore, I have a question: Just how big is Tamriel in lore, relative to, say, Eurasia?

split iris
#

It is left somewhat obscure for the beholder, and games are no representations to the true "real life" Tamriel. However there is that one statistic in the PGE, the distance between Red Mountain and Mournhold, putting Tamriel roughly about the size of Europe.

coral mantle
#

can't rely on my memory but, i think author of TES novelizations said he was free to make up his own distances? like, BGS let books present Tamriel differently than games

uncut hatch
#

Oh cool I don’t have to travel from summerset to Morrowind to find out. It’s just in the manual

#

Didn’t know the manual would be so helpful about this

#

(Do not walk from city to city your pc will explode before then >_>)

west palm
#

Roughly the size of Europe then.

unknown.png
uncut hatch
#

Oh cool

#

It really is just fantasy Europe

split iris
#

We have High Rock on the western coast and an island or two trying to separate from the mainland, so yea, pretty much

uncut hatch
#

Bruh I never noticed HighRock looks so similar to Norway, Sweden and Finland 😳

split iris
#

TES2: Daggerfall was basically Fantasy Mediterranean Sea Sim

uncut hatch
#

Summerset isles is just reversed Britain which makes sense knowing it was named after a place in England

coral mantle
#

from Father of the Niben: So, Topal setting sail from Firsthold heads north-east, which coincidentally is the longest one can travel along the Abecean Sea without striking land of any kind. Had he traveled straight east, he would have struck the mainland somewhere in what is now the Colovian West of Cyrodiil in a few weeks. Had he traveled south-east, he might have reached the hump of Valenwood in a few days. But our pilot, judging by his own and our modern maps, sailed in a straight line north-east, through the Abecean Sea, and into the Iliac Bay, before touching ground somewhere near present-day Anticlere in two months' time.

#

who wants to do the math and uh, google what's the speed of those medieval ships?

#

this book came with Oblivion by the way, which is 'modern' Bethesda

split iris
#

Let's say Trireme sail at 8.5 mph max speed, constrained at 190 miles. Chinese Junk at 16 mph with around idk 5000 miles? Caravels at 9 mph with 150 miles per day, averaging at 4-5 mph with 90-100 miles per day, maxing at 5000 miles.

coral mantle
#

i'd stick with caravela for such explorations. And uh, what do we do with it now? does 2-3 weeks travel from Firsthold to say Anvil fits the Europe-sized Tamriel?

split iris
#

I would go with straight north-east from Firsthold to Anticlere in two months time, as it is a more precise statistic in all accounts.
If every day, they make 90-100 miles/day distance for 61 days, that would bring you about

#

5,795 miles... which is very big

#

really...really big

So who knows what the full story was. Fast ships, wrong statistics, longer breaks, etc

coral mantle
#

and also, Topal was Merethic Era guy, i think? author of Father of the Niben likely doesn't know what kind of ships knife-ears used back then