cause Talos is an imperial god
#elder-scrolls-lore
sand flume
cosmic thistle
like here is a better idea for why the statue is depicted Talos striking at a serpent if we're using ouroboros. It's depicting Talos ending the constant warfare in Tamriel by unifying it
sand flume
and it's his statue
cosmic thistle
which matches with the only real use of the symbol in the series, ESO where it's three snakes eating each other
representing the futility of the alliance war
modest helm
cause Talos is an imperial god
Talos is also a Nordic god. The document that gives us the totems also gives us that "The Dragonborn God" is a new addition but always has a place in the Nordic pantheon, heralding the end of the cycle
sand flume
though thinking about it this is a very interesting take, you kill alduin and Talos makes sure he can never be summoned again by stabbing he who summons him
modest helm
Nords don't see Talos as a foreigner from Cyrodiil; they see him as one of their own who went down south and conquered Cyrodiil
frosty sentinel
talos of atmora yadda yadda
cosmic thistle
I'm just thinking of if Miraak actually was trying to pull a Dagoth Ur and become the only dreamer
that would make him even more awesome
sand flume
think that might be grasping at straws ngl
in seriousness, because a much more interesting way to talk about lore is with an open mind, why?
cosmic thistle
I mean Miraak was openly mind controlling people, has the ability to learn about becoming a god-head given the black books has stuff about it in their pages and also Herma-Mora would absolutely know the truth of the dream
sand flume
does he even know about the dreamer? could he have learnt from hermeaus mora
cosmic thistle
sand flume
would hermeaus mora have given him that knowledge though, how would miraak knowing this help mr moras goals
weak solstice
mora was onto the whole godhead business
the black book and discource amaranthine point to that
sand flume
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Black_Book:_Waking_Dreams
no doubt mora understands it, but would miraak
I haven't actually played dragonborn dlc in a while, but from what I remember miraak just sort of views himself as an all powerful being and automatically places himself at the top of the hierarchy. I've always interpreted why as being due to his dragon soul giving him draconic values
does him mind controlling people have to be a further goal than a form of world domination?
frosty sentinel
oh boy, miraak the sharmat is back on the menu
cosmic thistle
I mean don't get me wrong, Miraak could never be the sharmat
He can't compete with Dagoth Ur's swagger
frosty sentinel
now i have to ask you to define sharmat because we may be talking about two different things
abstract ledge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR-K2rUP86M this is canon
cosmic thistle
Agreed
weak solstice
agreed
frosty sentinel
agreed
sand flume
agreed
abstract ledge
official sixth house recruitment video
ocean brook
Dagoth Ur is a JoJO reference; discuss 😛
weak solstice
found it on the sleeve
cosmic thistle
I just want to talk about Dagoth Ur and him still being relevant so if I can do that by bringing up Miraak I will
frosty sentinel
i just want to talk about Jagar Tharn and how he is canonically ripped
and how nobody ever noticed that ever
abstract ledge
Hircine is ripped af
cosmic thistle
I can imagine Jagar tharn being ripped, he has the genes
frosty sentinel
i cannot believe this
cosmic thistle
I mean have you SEEN his ancestor
abstract ledge
look at this boi
abstract ledge
i just want to talk about Jagar Tharn and how he is *canonically* ripped
sauce?
ocean brook
he's also the Imperial Batlemage; you kind of need a healthy body to fill that position 🙂
abstract ledge
are you sure he isn't actually fat and the magics are not pressing them together
frosty sentinel
Yes
cosmic thistle
Honestly at this point the only Tharn I care about is that hunk of a man named Abnur Tharn
abstract ledge
abnur tharn can canonically outrun a khajiit in their prime
frosty sentinel
wait what
ocean brook
A Tharn for every occasion
abstract ledge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcDY-5GjGaE look at that boi run
cosmic thistle
Abnur Tharn is the most interesting man of TES
frosty sentinel
look i love abnur as much as the other guy but cmon
he's schick's donut steel
jagar was the OG
cosmic thistle
Jagar wishes he could do as much damage as Abnur
frosty sentinel
dude he probably could
he was The imperial battlemage
and was known to cast the most complex spells out there
ocean brook
Banish Septim?
frosty sentinel
yes, as a matter of fact
the french arena manual mentions that it's like the yay-level spell of spells
ocean brook
considering that Septim blood is practically plot armor . . .
frosty sentinel
dude jagar is pretty amazing if you look at the sheer amount of planning the simulacrum took and how many back up plans he had
he had everything covered, basically
cosmic thistle
Abnur was instrumental in opening a gateway to coldhabour so big that Mankar Camoran and Mehrunes Dagon wish they could've made
lost nebula
Meridia’s Coldharbor
cosmic thistle
You open a gate that could engulf white-gold and the surrounding city and then decide to close it?
Baller
ocean brook
does not say what "Meridia's Coldharbor" means to her now
cosmic thistle
but he still did it
frosty sentinel
cosmic thistle
I'm not wrong
cosmic thistle
Abnur also had a ton of kids and lived for over a century
which is rare for some human mages
He was 165 at the time of Elsweyr, has 16 kids, seven wives and was the chancellor of the elder council for 117 years
frosty sentinel
yeah i know all that
abstract ledge
is it me or is the fallout lore section going longer so far
cosmic thistle
it's wild, fallout lore sections were always dead on the forums
robust harness
Fallout doesn't have books so it's pretty difficult to keep lore going like TES lmao
cosmic thistle
It does have terminals
robust harness
Yeah but you can't put 50 terminals in a bookshelf
cosmic thistle
Not with that attitude
abstract ledge
wonder how they feel about that
cosmic thistle
It's more it's surprising UESP still has such a active presence in the tes community still
lost nebula
there’s a fan wiki for fallout besides fandom
cosmic thistle
other sites like UESP kinda lost relevance but not UESP
lost nebula
I remember that there was an UESP like fallout website but I forgot the name and everything looks dumb on mobile
so idk which one it is
abstract ledge
It's more it's surprising UESP still has such a active presence in the tes commu...
are you saying that you'd expect fandom to be more popular over UESP thanks to people that are more likely to go with SEO?
cosmic thistle
fandoms tend to be more popular from what I've seen
dusk timber
I prefer UESP
Always
cosmic thistle
UESP will always be my go to
abstract ledge
fandoms are not necessarily bad, its more that fandom itself is an ad infested site
cosmic thistle
I'm biased though
ashen dagger
I wanted to use that wiki, but then I found out you can't make dialogue citations like you can on Nukapedia.
abstract ledge
UESP? you can cite dialogue tho.
ashen dagger
You can? Huh.
abstract ledge
{{ref|name=KWEBM|[[Bloodmoon:Korst Wind-Eye|Korst Wind-Eye]]'s dialogue in [[Bloodmoon:Bloodmoon|Bloodmoon]]}}
is an example
in references it would look like this
cosmic thistle
yea UESP is really good about that kinda stuff
abstract ledge
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/UESPWiki:Getting_Started if you wanna contribute to the wiki, UESP has this page
ashen dagger
Oh.
slender latch
Imperial Library is still around as well. We update periodically.
west ivy
Both wikis have their uses; UESP is aesthetically good while Wikia has information that UESP omits for whatever reason
ashen dagger
Well, no, not that kind of dialogue.
This kind of dialogue.
Player: Dialogue
NPC: Dialogue
Like that.
west ivy
I mean that's 1. a thing that we try to avoid and 2. necessary because of how hard it is to find dialogue on that site
Ah yes ah yes let me browse through literal megabytes to see one line spoken by Razum-dar this is not a problem at all ah yes ah yes
This could be fixed, but it will not be
ashen dagger
Having been a Fallout editor for a while, I do understand the pain and struggle of that sort of thing, but I always consider it to be far more worth it when it's found and able to be read by hundreds of thousands, rather than expecting said hundreds of thousands to play the game and be forced to play a specific path and pick specific dialogue options just to hear one line.
west ivy
Hah
Ironically, that's actually an influential school of thought on UESP
"If I wanted the dialogue, I'd play the game"
I imagine he does not actually ever want dialogue nor play the games
abstract ledge
Events of Game are horrible citations are are not specific enough, i agree.
i have made an effort to fix those but its hard to find what specific quest or npc said what and its annoying that some older editors did that
ashen dagger
I do play the games a lot of the time, at least for Fallout, I just happen to spend just as much, if not more, time browsing the files.
west ivy
Ultimately you don't use UESP if you want an experience made for the reader
ashen dagger
I just like editing, although with certain standards.
west ivy
You use UESP if you have whatever bizarre feudal oath of loyalty and vassalage to it
ashen dagger
Like the ability to cite full dialogue, rather than "Dialogue with NPC"
abstract ledge
for now, you'd have to work around it sadly
ashen dagger
Damn.
abstract ledge
something like, "Dialogue said by X npc during X quest in X game"
west ivy
I mean if you're actually considering editing for UESP I'd advise you to remember Dante Alighieri 😎
ashen dagger
Which is funny, UESP pages for some characters have dialogue, don't they?
No idea who that is.
west ivy
He wrote the Divine Comedy
ashen dagger
Ah.
west ivy
A particular line from it is famous: Abandon all hope, ye who enter here
abstract ledge
quest page?
lost nebula
there should be dialogue on the quest pages lmao
ashen dagger
Er, lore page.
west ivy
There should be dialogue on the quest pages lmao
ashen dagger
It says lore page in her infobox.
abstract ledge
ya there is supposed to be dialogue on quest pages
lost nebula
i really dislike uesp quest pages
ashen dagger
It says it's a lore page.
abstract ledge
ya, lore pages and game pages are seperated
west ivy
there should be dialogue on the quest pages lmao
I'll finish my proof of concept in June-July, I'll send you my preview
abstract ledge
no, you click on the lore page to get to the actual lore page
ashen dagger
It's only been 5 minutes and I'm already confused.
Oh.
Why is it the same color as the header then?
lost nebula
I'll finish my proof of concept in June-July, I'll send you my preview
niice alright
abstract ledge
Idk?
west ivy
niice alright
Don't spread it, it's not for circulation
abstract ledge
does fallout wiki have seperate character and lore pages?
abstract ledge
I'll finish my proof of concept in June-July, I'll send you my preview
delete this
lost nebula
understood
slender latch
When ESO closes down for good it is going to be hard to reconstruct the dialogue from the string files.
abstract ledge
ya uesp seperates lore from gameplay
ashen dagger
I see.
west ivy
This goes triply so for you @abstract ledge
abstract ledge
west ivy
I'm serious, You Know Whom is to hear absolutely nothing of it
ashen dagger
I assume you all are prominent UESP editors?
abstract ledge
yes
ashen dagger
Neat.
west ivy
Prominent is not the word I'd use to describe me
ashen dagger
Editors in general then.
abstract ledge
i wish dialogue was in quest pages too
keen briar
They're more like scavengers
abstract ledge
eh im a pretty active editor in lorespace
keen briar
ashen dagger
Eh, everyone's a wiki janitor at some point.
Keeping the wiki clean and fresh, while also making sure everything is up to date and up to code.
abstract ledge
i suck at working templates, tables, etc, but i am good at adding lore content
abstract ledge
wdym
abstract ledge
Biased lore content
keen briar
Begone cultist
abstract ledge
Hail Hircine
if you mean biased by me only working on lore pages that interest me, then that is part of the point of wikis like UESP being a volunteer type thing
I enjoy working on content that interests me
keen briar
Hircine bad
ashen dagger
If I might ask a lore question then, what exactly is the broken/unfinished robot with the monocle thing? I saw an image of it once on the Dwemer automaton page once, and never saw the lore of it.
ashen dagger
Yes, that.
abstract ledge
it doesnt have a name in morrowind
ashen dagger
Oh.
abstract ledge
by todays standards, it would likely be considered a https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dwarven_Colossus
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dwemer_Animunculi has a full list of types of automatons
ashen dagger
I always liked the Dwemer and their fancy mechanicals. Probably the only thing I know about TES aside from the 5 hours I played Oblivion and Skyrim.
cosmic thistle
UESP can be a bit labyrinthian in finding some stuff
keen briar
Only if you don't use protection
ashen dagger
I mostly had trouble with the galleries.
I thought I could find all the images of the automatons on the lore page, but it turned out I had to go to each and every individual automaton page to see all their variants.
frosty sentinel
just UESP things 💅
abstract ledge
they could do better by asking the community what they would like to see to improve the site
ashen dagger
Eh... It didn't work out too well for Nukapedia. I wouldn't recommend it much for UESP.
Unless you want the vocal minority of Reddit to be your dominant audience.
west ivy
Better than the current audience
cosmic thistle
if UESP did that I feel they'd ask the folx on their discord and forums
frosty sentinel
reachfolx
cosmic thistle
Elder scrolls lore belong to the reach
torn mirage
Is this the place for stories?🤔
abstract ledge
Hircine is now the chief patron of this discord, its in my C0da
frosty sentinel
👉 found two folks sharing a braincell
west ivy
Hircine smells like wet dog
frosty sentinel
hircine sniffs butts
west ivy
Hircine chases his own tail
abstract ledge
Hircine chases his own tail
why do you keep describing barbas
west ivy
Hircine was Numinex, a dragon in human form!
abstract ledge
na, sheo said he shit
ocean brook
brilliant 🙂
west ivy
Molriel A.
Where does A come from?
opaque wagon
Leaped Demon is Dagon
abstract ledge
t posing dagoth ur
twin verge
torn mirage
> Molriel A.
Where does A come from?
Valenwood
twin verge
Ono
sudden birch
Uh oh
twin verge
Is this what happened to the dwemer
rotund crane
Let's keep it on topic please
frosty sentinel
👍
abstract ledge
what is your guys opinion on sermon 12 of Vivec's Sermons
opaque wagon
I’d give it a 12 out of 36
abstract ledge
I’d give it a 12 out of 36
twin verge
They're my favourite fantasy books.
abstract ledge
when vivec wandered into the mourning hold and saw almalexia training her stamina with two sotha sils, was she with nerevar at the time?
twin verge
hardy quarry
when vivec wandered into the mourning hold and saw almalexia training her stamin...
I do not believe so
hardy quarry
Wasnt that in 2920
Nah that's in the Sermons
keen briar
Nerevar cries every time
opaque wagon
The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind & Tribunal is really just one long revenge plot about murdering your ex-wife and getting back at your old snake high school friend group
abstract ledge
The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind & Tribunal is really just one long revenge plot...
canon
slate sage
Thoughts on Talos?
weak solstice
Thoughts and prayers
hardy quarry
Thoughts on Talos?
Talos is based and violet-pilled
weak solstice
What is the violet pill, Lorebeard
slate sage
I’m curious too.
hardy quarry
What is the violet pill, Lorebeard
When you learn the color of betrayal and the color of bruise
slate sage
Ah
fallow tangle
Thoughts on Talos?
Fake
hardy quarry
Fake
What colors do you think he will paint you in?
Betrayal, or bruise? 🙂
Talos be with ye
fallow tangle
Fake god
What doesn't exist can't do shit to me
May Auri-El save your petty soul
fallow tangle
yeah
plucky mantle
Why's it violet
hardy quarry
Why's it violet
Because it's a composite of red and blue
They represent opposing concepts in TES and purple is the color of royalty, which is the color in-between
The joke is that Talos shatters the red and blue pills and snorts both of them
plucky mantle
Why's it the colour of royalty
left current
I don’t have much artistic capabilities but I did make this kinda about that
Well what’s the syllable of royalty
plucky mantle
What's that drawing
left current
It says I are all we
hardy quarry
Well that's not what CHIM literally means but yeah, that's the idea
left current
I wanted to have I am and I are all we but I couldn’t fit all that and have the I just be in the red and the we in the blue and have it be satisfactory
hardy quarry
CHIM just means starlight, royalty, etc
But yeah
The red is the I
The blue is the we
plucky mantle
Why
hardy quarry
Why
Well think about it. Red is often associated with danger and pain irl right?
Red gets associated with something that stands out and is bright. On the electromagnetic spectrum it has a higher energy
And in TES, red is referenced as the color of betrayal
plucky mantle
Why
plucky mantle
One of what
hardy quarry
You know what lmao
plucky mantle
No I just ask why alot
hardy quarry
Why is it betrayal
You've never questioned why dangerous things in nature are often red have you
plucky mantle
Oh right
weak solstice
Being stabbed in the back
hardy quarry
Nah it's more than that Ahack
weak solstice
Oh?
hardy quarry
In C0DA for instance, Jubal uses the color red to drive off alien creatures
They see it and run
Metaphysically it's a color that is innately representing danger
plucky mantle
Cheers
hardy quarry
And it's something that sort of lampshades red being on dangerous creatures irl
plucky mantle
What's blue then
hardy quarry
Submissiveness, futility, nostalgia, sadness, etc
plucky mantle
Do I ask why or just accept it
hardy quarry
Idk have you never felt blue before
plucky mantle
So it's just ripped from irl then
hardy quarry
Yeah but it's also mixed with Jungian psychology and some other stuff
plucky mantle
Cheers
hardy quarry
From UESP:
"King Narilmor: "Struggle as you might, you cannot deny the will of Meridia. Her power is infinite."
King Narilmor: "Submit to the Lady of Light, and be cleansed." (Summons the Radiant Orb and its Aurorans)
King Narilmor: "Blue. The color of calm, measured inevitability, and despair." (Summons the Phosphorescent Orb and its Aurorans)
King Narilmor: "Purple. The color of regality, and savage gashes in the night sky." (Summons the Scintillating Orb and its Aurorans)
King Narilmor: "Red. The color of fiery passion and boiling blood!" (Summons the Blazing Orb and its Aurorans)"
Both red and blue are bad in their extremes
Purple, the color of regality, exists between them
And what Talos embodies is both extremes together
In another part of the lore, you have the figure of Master Redshift and a figure called Blueshift
Redshift is the color that abandons his children and leaves the world
That's why he Redshifts. You see him as he moves away from you
Blueshift is when that spirit comes back, but the identity flips because the color changed
They're fragmented beings and can't be put right again. They ain't violet pilled
Talos is
He can redshift and blueshift at the same time
He can hold together the forces of the Tower as seen in the sigil of CHIM which is always threatening to fall apart at the slightest break in concentration
His herculean will allows him to be the One and the All
And that is why Talos is violet-pilled
plucky mantle
Cheera
plucky mantle
@hardy quarry at the end of c0da does lorkhan and everyone at the wedding also go to the next amaranth
hardy quarry
<@215267484532473858> at the end of c0da does lorkhan and everyone at the weddin...
Noooope
Their memories are saved by Mnemoli. That's about it
plucky mantle
Do jubal and vivec just drop into a coma on the spot
hardy quarry
Do jubal and vivec just drop into a coma on the spot
The fuse into a single being and become the new universe
hardy quarry
<@215267484532473858> why is water memory
Based off of more real life stuff as well
plucky mantle
Wym
hardy quarry
Wym
Homeopathy is an example
It claims that things diluted in water are more potent than things that aren't, due to the memory of water
I think that there's this sense maybe that people saw their reflections in the water and felt that the water held a piece of their image innately
Idk if there's a reason why water is memory in TES
It just is
There might be a deeper reason but I don't know it
plucky mantle
So there's no myth as to why in lore
hardy quarry
Like I can explain things about water
hardy quarry
So there's no myth as to why in lore
Well most of the land became water due to the ideological split in the Hist-Ehlnofey war
It sank into the sea and became the tears of the masses
Or something like that
Well more like it literally became the sea
weak solstice
There’s this
hardy quarry
I've also really tired and need to sleep
I would not take water as memory to be too important
People do that and start asking weird questions like if crying makes you forget things
hardy quarry
There’s this
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/2mzDJ
Well that's what but not why
plucky mantle
Ooo
weak solstice
Well that's what but not why
Are there really other myths that talk about it
hardy quarry
Are there really other myths that talk about it
MK spilled the beans on memo
Damn it Rock
plucky mantle
Does sweating make you remember
plucky mantle
Is there any lore on mermaids at all
hardy quarry
People think that memory becomes water
But nah
Water is something that holds information
Life for example
And it's also the chemical in the body that holds the information of that person
It's different from real life biology in some ways
You get some of that in the body too
This is just what the specific magical property of water is
plucky mantle
@hardy quarry @viral garnet cheers
hardy quarry
<@215267484532473858> <@277997095867252736> cheers
Also humor theory is a thing
That should explain some things
Consider water to be like a humor
plucky mantle
Wym
hardy quarry
Look it up man, I gotta sleep
west ivy
In the early modern period the 'scientific' conception of the body was that it was regulated by five different humours
plucky mantle
Sleep
west ivy
Each was associated with a colour and element
Regulating the balance thereof was essential to keeping the body funxional
The red humour was blood; that's why you hear about leeches and bleeding as a medical practice
left current
plucky mantle
@west ivy cheers
west ivy
One might also be tempted to look at the three spirits
The lowest, the "Natural spirit" was thick and viscous, the "Vital Spirit" was like water, and the "Animal Spirit" was as if a vapour which could escape from your mouth or een and was how words could compel another or a girl with pretty een would ensnare men with the vapour emanating from her een
solid sparrow
Have the races of nirn ever been to Masser and Secunda? I heard before of a space program that involved Khajit, but I think it was a joke and don't know the origin of it.
I've also heard theories that the Psyjic order also lives on one of the moons currently
weak solstice
The khajiit have moon colonies
well, temples on a moon
you go there during a Reapers March quest in ESO main game and in Northern Elsweyr
I believe in Reaper's March you go to some "demi-plane" of a moon
but in Northern Elsweyr there is an actual star moongate to Jode
split iris
We are not allowed to call it a stargate for copyright reasons. 
abstract ledge
You visit jode and the dark moon in eso
abstract ledge
You dont visit the dark moon in thw maw of lorkhaj trial
Maw of lorkhaj is a term describing an opening from tamriel that lead’s to namira’s realm of the Scuttling Void/ Dark Behind the World
However, the term den of lorkhaj is an alternate name for the dark moon, not to be confused for the term maw of lorkhaj
weak solstice
oh right
Den of Lorkaj
a totally different thing
sorry
or is there more
i might be forgetting smth
abstract ledge
The dark moon has several alternate names
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dark_Moon i wrote this page, feel free to read it if you want to know more about it
weak solstice
good stuff, ty
split iris
The age old meme is that, with every new game, the Khajiit manage to add another moon.
Hasn't been disproven yet
Wait till you hear about the TBD 6th Moon
weak solstice
Real lore question
if the Second Aperture from the sermons is anal
then what are the Nine Apertures from sermon 14
i am afraid to count beyond 4
split iris
The MNEM write the scrolls. I merely read the lines.
(Ah, I see we aren't allowed to use spoilers in chat)
But yea it basically comes from the Vedic stories where the Body is compared to a City, as a City consists of 9 Gates. And thus: two eyes, two ears, mouth, nostrils, anus, and genitals.
(cough cough Promise of the PSJJJJ cough)
weak solstice
But yea it basically comes from the Vedic stories where the Body is compared to ...
Ah, interesting. Thank you!
sand flume
tfw alduin isnt alongside akatosh auriel and all the rest
uncut hatch
i like this but its a bit confusing
i like how the eye of magnus is over where the sun is
left current
Lot of what must be personal theories from the OP. Especially around the aedra
split iris
Pretty much every chart like this is wrong to some degree. The actual structure hold contradictions which cannot cleanly be depicted. Cultural and religious perspective and all.
uncut hatch
issue when you're making something based off creation myths
split iris
Or any myth really
cosmic thistle
It's wrong
Mundus isn't like a typical solar system. Everything rotates around Nirn.
the divines, the moons, Magnus and the stars, the planes of oblivion. It all surrounds Nirn. Nirn is legit the center of Mundus for a reason
also a good deal of people throughout TES's history have achieved immortality
a lot of this picture is overly simplistic and kinda just wrong on some parts or missing stuff on other parts
solid nymph
Can someone explain to me the importance of Anu and Padomay - are they Gods, or depicted as Gods but not really intelligent beings, or? 😅 Never really understood it
hardy quarry
Can someone explain to me the importance of Anu and Padomay - are they Gods, or ...
The best way to understand what a god is in the context of Anu and Padomay and their children, is that a god is the most powerful force in your life
So they represent ideas and forces in nature and people
Anu and Padomay represent contrast and that's it
They allow things to exist because nothing can exist without contrast
solid nymph
are they actually existent or simply "the force of nature" then?
hardy quarry
They are as primordial as it gets
hardy quarry
are they actually existent or simply "the force of nature" then?
They never had will or ego
cosmic thistle
Anu and Padomay are also barely a presence because they are remnant memories from the godhead's previous life
that's why anu and padomay rarely show up as actual entities
hardy quarry
Anu and Padomay are the Godhead's phantoms yes
But they weren't ever "real" like other gods
cosmic thistle
yea
hardy quarry
Just the phantoms of the Dreamer
uncut hatch
so like, concepts
cosmic thistle
In a way but different concepts then the Aedra
hardy quarry
Anu and Padomay are just the most primordial ones
solid nymph
They simply exist I guess 😅
split iris
They are pretty much the most abstract cosmic forces, depicting the contrast yet interplay of two opposites, yup
sand flume
wouldnt they be just the contrast? and then literally everything else in the universe is the interplay of the two
hardy quarry
wouldnt they be just the contrast? and then literally everything else in the uni...
Yes
uncut hatch
they're the light and dark
hardy quarry
they're the light and dark
Light and dark gets seen as good and evil a lot
It's true but just remember that Anu could easily be the dark and Padomay the light
Ultimately it doesn't matter since light and dark aren't even invented yet at this point
uncut hatch
Light and dark gets seen as good and evil a lot
yeah, theres a whole book about it in daggerfall
cosmic thistle
I'd say Anu and Padomay are the forces of nature of the dream, the Daedra represent absolutes of the nature of Mundus and the Aedra represent concepts created by mortals. Which is why Aedra are more often associated with things that can be defined differently by cultures but Daedra represent absolute ideas like hunting, murder, revolution, disasters, corruption
so worshiping anu or padomay is like worshiping gravity
split iris
As you go down the gradiency, things get more defined, crystalised, and mortal perspective comes into play. A bit like Enuma Elish. You have these impersonal cosmic forces - not even with defined terms. I'd say it is more on the level of Anuiel and Sithis where you start with the specific concept of opposites such as light and dark, snake and eagle, good and bad, and other mortal stuff. And with the Aedra and Daedra, it gets more specific (tho not clean cut - never is). Anu and Padu is just duality. The IS and IS NOT. A concept. It would be less like the worship of gravity (as those are the Ehlnofey!) and more like worship simply the concept of duality with no will or persona. Quite eldritch.
hardy quarry
I also wouldn't say that the Daedra are absolutes
It probably comes across that way since the Princes tend to be very absolute in that their nature is bound to their concept and sphere, but that also works for the Aedra themselves
cosmic thistle
I disagree
hardy quarry
The Aedra and Daedra both represent culture and concepts in mortals
cosmic thistle
A concept is more fluid then what the Daedra represent
beauty and art for instance can't compare with the idea of a natural disaster or a revolution
hardy quarry
A concept is more fluid then what the Daedra represent
The Daedra are also the parents of mortals, they exist in the mortal mind, and especially the subconscious
cosmic thistle
Law and order doesn't compare with the night sky or the hunt
sand flume
tfw daedric prince of order
hardy quarry
Law and order doesn't compare with the night sky or the hunt
The god of the Hunt also represents the primal urge in man, it's not just about literal hunting
Hircine is about primal nature itself
cosmic thistle
Oh I know but the primal nature is also an absolute and not a concept
that's the problem
hardy quarry
o.O
sand flume
isnt time absolute?
sand flume
lol
solid nymph
🍿
split iris
Honestly, the more deeper you delve into TES, it becomes harder to put a wall between Aedra and Daedra. In the beginning it was "Aedra create and Daedra change!" and well, that doesnt hold up much anymore. One helped with creation and one didnt but what with Trinimalak and Merid? In the end it has become more of a "one is at this level of existence and the other in the other."
And while controversial, I know, I would say that both Aedra and Daedra are these mass eldritch creatures that have been moulded through mortal perception to be understood by our small brains. With the Aedra, it was more they cut themselves into such picture during creation while the Daedra are shaped by perception.
hardy quarry
Honestly, the more deeper you delve into TES, it becomes harder to put a wall be...
Yep. The only difference between Aedra and Daedra is a single Red moment
cosmic thistle
you really can't call the Daedra a concept when everything they represent is part of Mundus's design. The night sky can't be compared to law and order because law and justice are fluid while the night sky will always come, same thing with stuff like Mephala weaving fates, Vaermina holding dominion over dreams, all of this are by design things that have and always will be while laws change, war changes, government change
hell we've seen literal time being more fluid then a constant
hardy quarry
you really can't call the Daedra a concept when everything they represent is par...
The Aedra are the actual laws of Mundus itself. They are 100% design as well
Well I'd be better off saying that the Earthbones are the laws of Mundus
The Aedra are not all Earthbones
cosmic thistle
earthbones are the laws of mundus, that I'd agree with
but Daedra represent more than just concepts is my point
hardy quarry
Most of the gods people call Aedra descend in some way from Earthbones 🤨
hardy quarry
but Daedra represent more than just concepts is my point
So they do represent concepts
hardy quarry
What do you define as an absolute
cosmic thistle
the night isn't a concept
even the primal nature of everything itself isn't a concept, it's built in.
The Aedra are often times associated with stuff that can be changed. Again, art and beauty have often been redefined and changed, laws change all the time and not every society has the same laws
hardy quarry
Can you answer my question?
cosmic thistle
An absolute is something that will always remain, which most daedra represent as again i've stated with stuff like dreams, the night sky, fate
uncut hatch
kinda weird how you guys are saying aedra are always changing and daedra always staying the same when in the games npcs are always saying the opposite
split iris
Ordered Chaos and Chaotic Order. Paradoxes and Contradictions are the ways of Myth and so, TES. Just ask Julianos.
Though even then, I would argue against any form of constants and permanents in TES, imo...
cosmic thistle
what I'm saying is is that things the Aedra are associated with are often changed by mortal perception, some do represent absolutes like time and nature sure but most don't.
but not every deity represents a concept
hardy quarry
what I'm saying is is that things the Aedra are associated with are often change...
Why does something not changing mean it isn't a concept?
I think you're over-simplifying all of this. The Aedra are shifted much more by mortal perception, sure, but basically everything in TES is a concept, even the night sky
Even the night sky isn't just the night sky, it's not like real life
cosmic thistle
An absolute means it's always going to stay the same by nature which is often the case with Daedra. You can not kill a Daedra but we've seen Aedra lose relevancy and just never show up
hardy quarry
It was dreamed into existence because ideas formed new ideas formed new ideas
And you can give those ideas egos and names
They can have some of their own decisions
But they're still concepts. Even mortals are concepts
It's just the level of concept a mortal is, is so complex that it's best to describe them by their names
uncut hatch
maybe this is a bit too complicated
sounds like you're explaining stories which i guess is what elder scrolls is
hardy quarry
sounds like you're explaining stories which i guess is what elder scrolls is
Bingo
cosmic thistle
But they're really not lol. You can't say fate or darkness are concepts, you can't say disasters or the primal nature of a animal is a concept, you can't say life energy or dawn and dusk are concepts
hardy quarry
But they're really not lol. You can't say fate or darkness are concepts, you can...
Fate isn't a concept?!
hardy quarry
Bruh
sand flume
in TES everything is a concept
split iris
The Daedra play musical chairs all the time. Malacath, Meridia, Sheogorath, Molag Bal, Dagon, and who knows who else (maybe Hircine) weren't always promised to be seated Princes in kalpas past. Even "16" isnt a pretty number that stays.
hardy quarry
What does being real or not do to make something not a concept
cosmic thistle
You're thinking of this stuff in terms of our own world, TES is not our world, it doesn't play by our rules
cosmic thistle
But you clearly are
cosmic thistle
Otherwise you'd know fate isn't a concept in TES
hardy quarry
The fact that it isn't the real world is why everything is a concept
It is all 100% invented ideas
In the real world the night sky is invented by physics
In TES it's invented by new ideas
split iris
Maybe we need to agree upon a definition for "concept" 
or use a different word...
hardy quarry
The night sky isn't even a night sky
hardy quarry
Is it an invented idea or no
cosmic thistle
No
hardy quarry
Okay then where did the night sky come from
cosmic thistle
It's the darkness that always existed, that's why Nocturnal is often called the Ur-Dra
she was the first spirit because the first thing was darkness
split iris
Or at least one of 'em
hardy quarry
Or at least one of 'em
Namira is just a proxy imo
split iris
Well you also have Hermaeus Mora
hardy quarry
There's a very very important reason why Nocturnal must be the first
Well Herma Mora is more Ur-Daedra
But he does seem joined at the hip with Nocturnal in places
cosmic thistle
Yea Herma-Mora is the first to really be recognized as a Daedra
split iris
True true Especially when a specific Aedra came to light.
hardy quarry
True true <:nightstoneNote:725377760406667264> Especially when a specific Aedra ...
You're welcome lmao 😉
Well anyways, if you aren't sure what the darkness of Nocturnal is, I don't think you should be convinced that the darkness of Nocturnal isn't an idea
cosmic thistle
Ok so what is the darkness of Nocturnal
hardy quarry
The darkness of the psyche
The subconscious from which the conscious emerges
Without Nocturnal there can be no other personalities
She is the canvas on which personality itself is born
cosmic thistle
You understand how that can be viewed as not an idea though
hardy quarry
I think that's an idea in TES and in real life
No, I don't personally treat that as legitimate, sorry
Most concepts are invented by people
TES just sort of lampshades that
By having the dream invent itself
cosmic thistle
Right but the Daedra are more than just ideas, an idea doesn't reshape them. You can change your idea of what night is but the night doesn't change, you can change your idea of what life energies are but that doesn't change what they really are, you can say it's a disaster the day is sunny but think a natural disaster is a good day but that doesn't change what the natural disaster is
hardy quarry
You can change your idea of time but time doesn't....change?
Life and death?
Contradiction?
Life and breath?
The soul?
Mortality?
cosmic thistle
For many cultures life and death are one and the same, even in our own world many people believe that death is just a transition to another journey through life. Several cultures throughout central and south America believe this.
hardy quarry
Causation itself?
These are all ideas that mortal belief doesn't change
And these are all different Aedra ('cept for the soul)
cosmic thistle
Time is just how we perceive what we see, for some Daedra time holds no weight to it. As a ESO dev stated while talking as Haskill "Sheogorath subjects his people to time but he isn't a subject to time"
sand flume
tbf mortal belief does change where you go after death somewhat but i think thats a loose connection to what yalls are talking about
hardy quarry
Time is a sequence of events.
You might distort the sequence or the rate
But you can't negate the sequence
cosmic thistle
Herma-Mora exists outside of time hence why he can have knowledge of the third era in the second era, Nocturnal laid a portal in summerset back in the first era but to her she just put it down
hardy quarry
There is still a sequence
cosmic thistle
time is a fluid in TES
hardy quarry
So what you're saying is that if enough people believe on Tamriel, time itself will change?
cosmic thistle
Possibly yes
solid nymph
I am indeed interested in this - which is why I just will add a comment, without much context, this reminds me of my philosophy class and how a convo between Socrates and someone else would go, also I guess I got my answer about Anu and Padomay some time ago, so thanks x 😊
hardy quarry
The guy who helped create most of the mythos itself, MK, has pointed out that natural laws can't be warped so easily like that
You can affect the dream with belief
cosmic thistle
It could be but as we've seen time has broken before. A dragon break messes with time where for some a day passes while for others a thousand years pass
hardy quarry
But Law is LAW
It doesn't swerve any more than believing a bullet won't penetrate your skull will stop the bullet
That's what made the Aldmer so angry
They couldn't undo it
You can mess with time a bit, but you still end up kneeling to the Law of it
The Daedra get more leeway because they were never part of the actual creation event directly
But even the Daedra are affected and must accept the idea of time
They can play with it more, but Time is the most tyrannical force there is
It's way more static than say, Mehrunes Dagon
Doc gon send me to the ranch
split iris
I do believe that there are ways the bend and change laws. Tonalists fiddling the Ehlnofex strings and what not. The Marukhati unwrapping the Dragon and doing who knows what, hell even making an entire new eight, which would also warp the laws of the world. At least in the Mundus. Belief plays a part. I know people don't like the whole Mythopoeia as the Power of Belief against the World, but it was a concept I enjoy entertaining personally. That doesn't mean in the cases of three morning children believing their dead father back from the grave good as new, but rather, in great number and power, forcing your will like a mace against the godhead to dream a different way.
hardy quarry
Don't send me to the ranch doc!
split iris
Lol no just giving my thoughts
hardy quarry
I do believe that there are ways the bend and change laws. Tonalists fiddling th...
The dragon rewrapped itself
split iris
This is true
hardy quarry
You can mess with the laws but they always reassert themselves
split iris
Dynomedium said NO, Syfri
cosmic thistle
I mean don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from with your points, it's just I don't personally agree. But it was an interesting idea to discuss
split iris
That I do
hardy quarry
That didn't take long
cosmic thistle
Ok so big thing about me is, I get very into debating but I swear I am an open minded person lol
hardy quarry
Well the thing is Disaster that you're right that Aedra are more malleable than Princes, but you've sort of missed the forest for the trees a bit
Real truth is that Aedra and Daedra ain't much different
And there's a lot of peeps in TES that figured that out
cosmic thistle
That's fair
hardy quarry
The only reason the Aedra are so malleable is because they "died"
They lose a lot of their ego and the mortals that they shattered into end up making them twitch back into action
And those mortals define those gods because of that. It's sort of like the gods are redefining and redreaming themselves but through their own shattered remains that are also all their own identities
And the Princes are affected by this too
cosmic thistle
Daedra also have more of a presence due to not having given their immortality up so their concepts and ideas could be more cemented into the world because they can actually enforce their ideals, I see where you're coming from
hardy quarry
The Princes are just affected significantly less by it
But they exist in mortals too
Mortals are also their children
Which means the mortal will still has to make them bow, ever so slightly
cosmic thistle
I would certainly say Dunmer are the children of Boethiah, Azura and Mephala but also to an extent the four houses as well
hardy quarry
All peeps in Tamriel are the children of the Daedra
cosmic thistle
with Reachfolx basically yelling "WE'RE HIRCINE'S KIDS"
hardy quarry
The concepts of the Daedra exist inside people because it's a part of the Daedra themselves
Even though the Daedra didn't create, they were also inside the Aedra
The thing with creation is that it starts with the gods all being large overlapping spheres that aren't very separated
So they also have no idea who they are
Over time there's more of a separation, but the overlap never completely disappears
Mortals are the closest thing. They have more agency because they don't share their mind as collectively
Despite the fact that the collective unconscious is a literal magical force in Tamriel
So all the Aedra creating? By proxy the Daedra did too
And their ideas and concepts filtered into mortals and helped make them what they were
That's sort of the truth that the Dunmer realize
modest helm
[Cyrus:] Clavicus...Vile? Please.
[N'Gasta:] Do not mock that name, mortal!
[Cyrus:] Ha-ha. Pray forgive me, necromancer. It just seemed an overly unsubtle name, that is all.
[N'Gasta:] Daedra were born before stars, mortal. Do you consider that perhaps such names preceded, hence perhaps inspired, the concepts they connote?
hardy quarry
Oh that is good
I didn't know about that line
Builds even more on things I've been saying for awhile
split iris
One of my fav lines in Redguard
modest helm
Oh that is *good*
N'Gasta has my favorite dialogue in the whole game
hardy quarry
You see what I'm getting at though @cosmic thistle ? I'm not actually trying to pick on you
It's something people used to tell me. "I am cutting you into better shapes."
Sermon of the Mace my n'wahs 🙂
cosmic thistle
Yea I get where you're coming from and nah, you're good lol
I don't feel like I'm being picked on, I've also been very stubborn which again, that's just me really getting into debate and discussion. This is why I'm not a politician.
hardy quarry
That's fair, I'm pretty stubborn too
hardy quarry
I'll try and be here for a lot of them
split iris
I must alas venture to the Quagmire but tis been a good trip down memo-ry land
keen briar
Terrible, simply terrible.
plucky mantle
@hardy quarry is there oxygen in tes
hardy quarry
<@215267484532473858> is there oxygen in tes
Seemingly, yes
plucky mantle
Do people actually breathe
hardy quarry
Whether it is structured mechanically the same (atomically) is a good question
plucky mantle
Cuz I'm talking to another bloke about it and they said if you're in space your brain just thinks you can't breathe but you can think around it because they don't breathe oxygen anyway
hardy quarry
Cuz I'm talking to another bloke about it and they said if you're in space your ...
It's not that you don't think you can breathe
There is no thinking of breathing at all
The concept itself leaves you
You have to use little tricks to remind yourself of the idea of it
And if you don't, you die
plucky mantle
So photosynthesis doesn't exist then
hardy quarry
So photosynthesis doesn't exist then
I wouldn't say that it doesn't
But it might not
plucky mantle
So grass is green cuz anu then
hardy quarry
Well we don't know who Anu was
plucky mantle
Good point
cosmic thistle
isn't there a thing about while people need to breathe it's not oxygen that's the problem with void travel, it's the fact there is no sound that is dangerous to mortals?
I remember seeing that somewhere
hardy quarry
Same basic problem, different form
plucky mantle
Could you imagine if Starfield had a quest where you literally see anu fly his ship into a black hole out of sheer heartbreak
cosmic thistle
I'd hate that
I'd rather TES, Fallout and Starfield be in their own universes with little references to each other
ocean brook
why would you hate that?
uncut hatch
Guess it’ll ruin immersion?
hardy quarry
Yeah people like entertaining the idea of Tamriel as being a real place
So doing something like that really kills the vibe
hardy quarry
just look at a map of Tamriel
What about it?
urban wing
Hammerfell and High Rick look like Europe
Not saying I subscribe to the theory
but I can see the resemblance
hardy quarry
TES irl is kind of a uh....interesting idea to push
It probably leads into avenues that aren't desirable
urban wing
I know, thats what I said didnt subscribe to it. Just saying there are similarities
urban wing
also, I posted this in #fan-art but I guess ill post it here too
My attempt at a politcal map of Tamriel
aside from the Argonian invasion of Morrowind I think I did an alright job
hardy quarry
That looks alright
urban wing
thanks
I dont know how far the Argonians went into Morrowind
And I hear conflicting info on the Aldmeri status on Hammerfell
hardy quarry
We don't have all the information for either cases
ocean brook
bandits are an important economic resource!
cosmic thistle
tbh it's more complicated
the kingdoms of elsewyr are a client state so they're vassals of the dominion but not actually part of the dominion. The dominion just has the power over it's international affairs but laws within Elsweyr are entirely governed by the Khajiit. We also don't really have anything about the Dunmer not being under the Empire just that the Dunmer aren't fond of them.
Dominion also has no presence in Hammerfell anymore, that was a major point when the Redguards pushed the Dominion out that if the Empire kept fighting they would've won
Also yea, you gave the Argonians way too much of Morrowind, I'd scale it back to just shadowfen as that was always contested territory between the dunmer and argonians
Dunmer still control Mournhold https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:To_Milore_from_Nilara
I might be wrong on the Empire not controlling Morrowind part since the second councilor of Raven Rock does say that the empire released it's grasp on Morrowind
but yea way too much land given to the Argonians who have never really been expansionists
urban wing
@cosmic thistle Thank you! Yea I was unsure about the Argonians
tbh though, for Elsweyr, its de facto Dominion, so its not that much of a change
cosmic thistle
Fair enough
hardy quarry
the kingdoms of elsewyr are a client state so they're vassals of the dominion bu...
Well being a client state but not part of the Dominion basically subservient and not equal
The Empire does not control Morrowind but I'm not sure if they're willing to admit it
There seems to be more of a silent understanding
torn mirage
🥱
modest helm
The Empire does not control Morrowind but I'm not sure if they're willing to adm...
Seems like something that changed between Skyrim base game and Dragonborn
Skyrim has those Imperial soldiers saying they're setting up at a chokepoint near Morrowind "just in case"
Dragonborn has a Dunmer who claims the Empire released their grasp on Morrowind
hardy quarry
Dragonborn has a Dunmer who claims the Empire released their grasp on Morrowind
Idk that these have to be mutually exclusive
weak solstice
i am afraid to count beyond 4
hahahhahhaha thanks Tyer
umbral swan
I'd rather TES, Fallout and Starfield be in their own universes with little refe...
I feel you on that
west palm
My attempt at a politcal map of Tamriel
As a history junkie, I think you should reconsider using hard borders for a period where there is no Westphalian Peace and border integrity, and in general, the modern concept of a border is not really applicable.
white garden
I'd rather TES, Fallout and Starfield be in their own universes with little refe...
Doom and Fallout totally exist in the same universe though haha
Thank you this is so helpful
old lantern
Wait so would you guys think it's possible for ES to maybe progress a bit technologically for ES6?
sand flume
TES has more of a theme of technology degrading than progressing tbh
vale grail
Parabolic Kalpa
uncut hatch
If we do get guns in Tamriel they most likely won’t look like how we’d imagine them.
simple spindle
Eh, that's just a theory tbh. Tech just isn't a big deal as a theme in TES, besides that the Dwemer used to be the most advanced race and since they vanished it's kinda taboo to advance technologically to much
Lest you suffer the same fate as the dwarves
sand flume
whilst "technology" degrading is defo theory territory, we can see a similar situation with magic arts, the thuum has been lost to time (only known by a VERY select few individuals where it used to be a common nord art) and sword singing too
and lets not forget that almost all advanced technology in tes is based on magic anyways, even dwemer automatons
simple spindle
The ye old trope of forgotten magic
vale grail
I think that's where the parabolic part comes in; as the Kalpa draws to a close things get closer to the mythic than the mundane
A lot of theories point towards the end of time coming soon, like the deactivation of the towers, the lack of an amulet of kings anymore, alduin's return. The thalmor also seem pretty intent on unmaking nirn to reach divinity like their ancestors
knotty socket
Depends how much credence you put in out of game sources when it comes to the Thalmor.
sand flume
^^
vale grail
I'd say ancano literally saying he wants to destroy creation is pretty damning
knotty socket
He doesn't even say that. Just that he could if he wanted to.
vale grail
"The power to unmake the world at my fingertips, and you think you can do anything about it?" seems pretty direct that this was his plan. What else would he have been using the eye for if not what he's directly saying?
knotty socket
Plus he's possibly a rogue element in the Thalmor (the game files have him included as part of a rogue faction, it's just never actually referenced as part of the game itself so... 🤷♂️
vale grail
Looking into that rn. All his dialogue points to him working in their favor
simple spindle
"The power to unmake the world at my fingertips, and you think you can do anythi...
Doesn't seem too direct, no
It seems like he can do it, it's just an example of what he can do
vale grail
That's such a specific thing to say, especially when paired with altmer religion
simple spindle
Overall the Thalmor were a pretty tangential faction in Skyrim, they are never really explored in depth
split iris
The Parabolic Kalpa always reminded me of Isidore Okpewho's Mythic chart. Mirror it and you have yourself a Wheel. In comparative religion, we usually talk about the different forms of mytho-historical literature in categorical terms, but it is interesting seeing it as such. It is unknown how much Beth actively thinks about such matters when writing, but it is a trend we see here and there. Even outside of the Thalmor, simply as the nature of the kalpas. It is a good twist to the ye olde trope of "magic ever to mundane."
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/694908948192690206/823098674778996756/20210321_081951.jpg
sand flume
That's such a specific thing to say, especially when paired with altmer religion
he could be saying it because its a possible idea resulting from altmeri religion, rather than a goal of the thalmor necessarily
knotty socket
I'm not ruling out the potential for that to be their endgame. Just that it's more one of those things the fandom has thrown about amongst itself based on relatively little actual evidence, that it's been taken as gospel beyond its actual means.
simple spindle
That's such a specific thing to say, especially when paired with altmer religion
I mean, is it? You'd imagine it would take quite a lot of power to unmake the world lol
sand flume
dont get me wrong i buy into the whole thalmor wanting to unmake mundus buuuuut its hard to argue that this is confirmed by what we have in game
vale grail
Yes but that phrasing is super direct, he could have easily just said something about turning you into dust, or destroying something. But unmaking is super specific
knotty socket
Whereas I'd argue it's not that specific or direct. Just 'supervillain banter 101'.
sand flume
altmeri view of creation is pretty widely poor, him saying he wants to unmake it could easily just be a result of that view
simple spindle
I'm not ruling out the potential for that to be their endgame. Just that it's mo...
The fandom can get stuck in some feedback loops sometimes. A result of overanalyzing a 10 yo game to hell and back
sand flume
it confirms nothing about the thalmor, just personal goals ideals
him trying to use the power of the eye for himself could be a sign of going against the thalmor
knotty socket
The fandom can get stuck in some feedback loops sometimes. A result of overanaly...
Yup, combine that with the memeology most things get subjected to these days and things like that easily spiral.
old lantern
TES has more of a theme of technology degrading than progressing tbh
I remember how TES 4 had better rails than TES 5
I guess they're gradually going into the stone age
I kinda wish they explored it more
simple spindle
I'd say it's more of a case of changing art styles
simple spindle
I guess they're gradually going into the stone age
I uh, highly doubt that? lol
old lantern
I uh, highly doubt that? lol
Not literally but they do seem to be degrading.
simple spindle
Skyrim was a little light on technology so plenty of people jump the gun to say society is regressing in TES when it's just part of the nordic/barbarian/conan-ish theme of Skyrim
old lantern
Aren't they focused on blacksmithing though?
simple spindle
Aren't they focused on blacksmithing though?
Orcs are more known for their blacksmithing than nords
old lantern
true
knotty socket
Nords used to be known for their heavier armour in earlier games, very slight quasi-retcon there.
old lantern
Anyways I'm pretty sure the dwarves got deleted because they were
A) Messing with magic
and
B) Messing with magic which was not of their own creation/advancement. Meaning they just skipped right to a really high level without the steps beforehand. Doesn't really create a good foundation for research/activity.
split iris
Merethic Era Bronze Age/Glorantha TES game...one can only dream
old lantern
Travel into the past to stop some sort of massive evil plot
knotty socket
I'd kinda 'meh' a bit at that. Or at least I'd rather the myths stay mythological as much as possible.
old lantern
tbh I really wish there was a TES game taking place in Akavir.
simple spindle
Nords used to be known for their heavier armour in earlier games, very slight qu...
That's still semi present with the nordic armor in Dragonborn, but yeah, not as common now
split iris
I'd kinda 'meh' a bit at that. Or at least I'd rather the myths stay mythologica...
Which is why I mentioned Glorantha. There is an art to doing it right, in living and breathing the essence of myth while preserving the mythology.
knotty socket
I'll be honest, my Glorantha knowledge is non-existent.
simple spindle
I hadn't realized how much Solstheim changed in Dragonborn until I went back to replay Bloodmoon
Where's all the Bear and Wolf motif in the Skaal >:V
frigid willow
I was peckish and ate it.
stark socket
I hadn't realized how much Solstheim changed in Dragonborn until I went back to ...
What I always recommend for Solstheim is Wolli's Tomb of the Snow Prince (TES3 mod https://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/46810) - literally the best of both worlds, a great and dense landscape overhaul resulting in a Solst that is much less bland than Bloodmoon's, but also not as dunmerified & simplified as in Dragonborn. Truly outstanding modwork.
simple spindle
What I always recommend for Solstheim is Wolli's *Tomb of the Snow Prince* (TES3...
I want to play with it so bad but last time I tried it tanked my framerate
stark socket
I want to play with it so bad but last time I tried it tanked my framerate
I think I had some issues with that as well, but it was not unplayable. But I had a minimum installatation iirc, without grass and everything.
(anyways, this little recommendation just in brackets - "stop making so much sense, this is a lore forum!", as someone once wrote in BGSF).
hardy quarry
A lot of theories point towards the end of time coming soon, like the deactivati...
They won't be able to unmake Nirn if that is their goal
hardy quarry
Nords used to be known for their heavier armour in earlier games, very slight qu...
Not necessarily a retcon. It just means that was the case for a lot of them in the 3rd Era
knotty socket
I used 'quasi' 😋 But yeah, could have well been a cultural shift in those couple of centuries, unlikely as that might be. I'd say it's more game mechanics to accentuate the Orc's identity in that regard and the Lore just kinda has to roll with it.
hardy quarry
Tbf heavy armor would be expensive to make and maintain
And everyone's economies in the 3rd Era seemed to be a bit better
knotty socket
Uriel's reign does seem to have been a high point in many respects prior to those waning years (and obviously after Tharn's impersonation and trying to mend the damage he did).
hardy quarry
It wasn't
knotty socket
Umbriel and the Great War in quick succession is going to do a number on anyone's economy.
hardy quarry
His was one of the worst Septim reigns tbh 🤣
It was probably better at the high points than Tamriel now though
knotty socket
His was one of the worst Septim reigns tbh 🤣
Apart from world ending disasters I mean 😋
hardy quarry
Sure but he literally caused the first two
And set up the disaster for the 4th himself as well
The only thing out of his control on every level was Morrowind, which mostly just prevented a catastrophe
Uriel VII was really not very good at his job lmao
stark socket
Politically, he continued what Morihatha and Pel IV began - slowly [re?]uniting a disintegrating Empire, with their limited means and varying success. Then, in the last decade of the 4th century, the totally unforeseen (avoidable?) interruption of the Simulacrum.
At least that's the "Brief History" narrative.
knotty socket
I would disagree on that to be honest but Patrick Stewart's voice makes everyone more competent. @hardy quarry (edited for clarity in who I was responding to).
stark socket
*Interregnum /= Simulacrum. I'm old ...
hardy quarry
I would disagree on that to be honest but Patrick Stewart's voice makes everyone...
He didn't notice his own right hand man embezzling funds or he just didn't care. Said dude very likely was influenced by the fact that Uriel was incompetent in managing the fracturing provinces and there's a decent chance that's what he was addressing.
After that, the plot of TES2 happens because Uriel did the equivalent of using FedEx to send nuclear launch codes.
And then the Septim lineage gets killed off. Uriel's kids don't seem to have children themselves despite the oldest being almost 50, and it's even suspected in TES3 that they are Tharn simulacra. Uriel VII doesn't seem to have done much to address this problem, and it turned a disaster into the catastrophe that was the Oblivion Crisis.
He can be as noble and have as good a voice as he wants, he still sucks lmao
weak solstice
I love the idea that Tharn was a better leader than Uriel lmao
stark socket
True Syfri, the years after the Simulacrum were like the 4th act in a tragedy, right before the catastrophe
hardy quarry
Well, I think he was probably more competent at least
knotty socket
Is it ever actually stated his kids didn't have children of their own?
hardy quarry
Is it ever actually stated his kids didn't have children of their own?
Well in the obituary none are mentioned, and simulacra probably can't have children
¯_(ツ)_/¯
stark socket
But that Uriel "was incompetent in managing the fracturing provinces" - this was a problem throughout the whole history of the Empire. One might argue that Tamriel was too big to be administered by a single Empire. Tiber was the first to create such a monster.
hardy quarry
That's fair, but considering the rest of Uriel's bad decisions, I tend to think he was doing a really bad job until Tharn decided he'd just take care of things himself
Imagine sending nuclear launch codes via FedEx
"Daddy why is the Bay on fire?"
stark socket
Tharnapologetic tendencies!
hardy quarry
Tharn doesn't get a pass, I just think he's more competent
Tharn's solution to the problem was to go scorched earth on it
stark socket
what about the four local wars that broke out under Tharn?
hardy quarry
what about the four local wars that broke out under Tharn?
You mean the wars he wanted to happen?
One text points out that he withdrew Imperial troops from conflicts
stark socket
He was involved in Bend'r mahk iirc -
hardy quarry
In a lot of places the Imperial garrisons did nothing
Tharn is a master strategist, he was the top of a school for it
Looks like clear population reduction to me
Especially since he'd have fresh troops once all is said and done
knotty socket
Outside of the Totem I can't really see a strong case for blaming him for much of it. If I had to play devil's advocate, I could suggest Uriel's powers of foresight leading him to 'know' that he was sending a Prisoner to each situation and that events would be resolved as they should be (obviously Daggerfall's resolution is... fluffy at best).
hardy quarry
Sure this is the equivalent of giving yourself 3rd degree burns to cure skin cancer
Tharn's solution is like "well just don't have skin bro"
Schick seemed to be coming to a lot of these same conclusions too
He mades the Tharns the KGB "messed up 'justice'" dudes
stark socket
Schick on Third Era?
hardy quarry
No
stark socket
Ah, the Tharns
hardy quarry
I mean the nature of the Tharns themselves
Historically their whole deal seems to be doing purges to fix things
And then you have a Tharn in the 3rd era seemingly doing the same thing
Dunno if that was really necessary, but I tend to think Tharn thought it was
Either way
Uriel had a dude like that as his right hand man and trusted him
Despite the fact he was doing things like embezzling
And a lot of people died because of Uriel's trust
hardy quarry
Outside of the Totem I can't really see a strong case for blaming him for much o...
The Foresight thing is a bit debatable. In TES2 he's sending you to clear up a booty call and also figure out where the Numidium launch codes went
Dude you can't just make simple mistakes that kill thousands of people and get to be in power
That alone is bad enough
You want the guy that won't make those mistakes
knotty socket
Dude you can't just make simple mistakes that kill thousands of people and get t...
IRL history suggests otherwise 😋
hardy quarry
IRL history suggests otherwise 😋
Sure but you shouldn't
You know what I mean
If the idea that someone doing something is a justification for them doing it, we're having a different conversation completely
The only thing Uriel VII didn't screw up was the plot of TES3
And that's because nothing bad had happened yet
knotty socket
Hey, don't you go knocking those booty calls; they sometimes end up in saving the temporal plane of reality from stompy four armed giant demons.
hardy quarry
I'm not knocking it, I'm saying that the dude losing the nuclear launch codes isn't an "oopsie" lmao
In any ancient society like Tamriel, you would be immediately executed for something like that, due to the severity
stark socket
Btw we might speculate if there were good reasons for sending an old-fashioned letter to Mynisera/Brisienna.
weak solstice
They ran out of sleeve-access juice (jk)
stark socket
You surely can intercept a dreamsleeve transmission ...
hardy quarry
Honestly I don't think the ability to do Dreamsleeve communications is very common
Not even for mages
MK makes it out to be a lot more common than it appears to be
hardy quarry
Uriel’s kids are Simulacra?
Allegedly, but probably yes
stark socket
"Uriel Septim is sick, and wizards say his heir, Geldall Septim, and the younger Septims, Enman and Ebel, are just doppelgangers placed in the household during Jagar Tharn's tenure as Imperial Battlemage. They say the Guard charged a mob demanding destruction of the false heirs... lots of folks were killed." - Unrest in Cyrodiil City topic, TES3 ^
sudden birch
What did I say?
My man Uriel created kids with fake seed.
Ah it was the emote, can’t do corbin
sudden birch
Yeah was making a joke but I wonder how they came to be
slender latch
I have to disagree completely with the assessment that Uriel VII was incompetent. He inherited a failing empire and did a pretty good job of putting the pieces together. As for the letter by fedex I don’t think he could have predicted the queen would have changed by the time the letter arrived to Daggerfall.
hardy quarry
I have to disagree completely with the assessment that Uriel VII was incompetent...
I think the idea is that you use a more secure method to transfer something that serious
You don't send a simple courier, you use one of your own agents for something like that
Traditionally this is done by having family members visit each other or something
There's always ways to find excuses to do a few things at once
And it disguises spicier communications like that. That's what people did irl
sand flume
green syfri scares me
sudden birch
He’s the Hulk
ocean brook
syfri?
hardy quarry
They mean me
hardy quarry
Yep
ocean brook
gotcha 🙂
ironically, I'm watching a clip now from the old live action hulk show
god, Bill Bixby lookeed so good back then
hardy quarry
Yes, yes he did 🙂
hardy quarry
We have to occasionally pull out the proto-nymic to keep this one in check <:aye...
Oh you think that's the protonymic. Cute. 😉
sudden birch
Sythicles
split iris
We'll call it paleo-nymic, as Legoless coined
ocean brook
when you wear lore on your face so much that you have to shave it every so often, not even a protonymic is going to be enough 😉
stark socket
A tad more Latin, iirc. ^
hardy quarry
Whenever I change my place in lorespace, I change my name to go with it
To mark the era
hardy quarry
Well there's also a sense of history when people who know you for different names call you by them
You just have to accumulate the history with them first for that to mean something
dusky scaffold
I'm just happy if anyone knows me
split iris
~~I'm just happy if anyone knows me~~
we do!
weak solstice
you are known
hardy quarry
I don't know who you are
split iris
In a sense, I am glad you changed your name, Syfri because my dyslexia always confused you with Serithi in other discord
hardy quarry
o.O
split iris
Now as for Serithi and Sarthes...
stark socket
There is also SemblioSanctii ^
dusky scaffold
hardy quarry
Semblio is never around
split iris
There is also SemblioSanctii ^
That's right 
hardy quarry
So that's not too bad
split iris
I see and speak to Semblio here and there
hardy quarry
Yeah he was on memo until he stopped posting there
dusky scaffold
I was Sarthes before I was active in any Elder Scrolls community
hardy quarry
Idk, I know most of the central memo people irl
But I will probably never approach most of them again for reasons
dusky scaffold
the name was first used on the 3rd of October 2007 😉
stark socket
I see and speak to Semblio here and there
I contacted him last year or so for a small translation & permission to republish it. 👍
hardy quarry
Honestly after the lorecast I decided I wanted to be left alone so I deleted all of my comments and changed my name so that I could ghost everywhere
It's a shame I was discovered so quickly
But the greybeard with the blunt probably didn't help
I can't be too mad since there's a lot of old friends here
stark socket
Loranna goes by the same paleonymic - that's most epic.
hardy quarry
Loranna goes by the same paleonymic - that's most epic.
Yeah! 😄
Ben and I tracked Loranna down
The name not changing kinda helped
split iris
But the greybeard with the blunt probably didn't help
And it was then you decided to go from Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the Many-Coloured.
hardy quarry
And it was then you decided to go from Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the Many-Colo...
The other form of my PFP looks like a cigarette pack logo lmao
Nice analogy, I like it
dusky scaffold
... did Blackbeard become a Greybeard when he aged???
split iris
... did Blackbeard become a Greybeard when he aged???
Asking the real lore questions
pastel sorrel
Blackbeard achieved CHIM and never aged. /s